Talk:Berbers

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Former good articleBerbers was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 10, 2007Good article nomineeListed
May 7, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Ethnicity or language[edit]

Does the populations section counts the language speakers or ethnic?, numbers would be a lot higher if it's the later. --LibyaDragoon (talk) 10:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Ethnic, in the opening paragraph they imply that there are berbers that do not speak berber by stating the north african population that "still speaks" the language. 2601:401:501:F990:BD2F:9BDD:CE0B:8386 (talk) 18:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Genetics And Ethnicity[edit]

The most proliferious haplogroup among the Berbers is haplogroup E1b1b. E1b1b came from Somalia, where an older version is now the most highly concentrated anywhere. E1b1b is obviously closely related to haplogroup E1b1a, which has it's highest concentration in non-Bantu speaking people in West Africa and the Bantu language family expansion. Berber is a language that is classified with Afro-Asiatic, just like Semitic, Chadic/Hausa, Cushitic and Ancient Egyptian. In other words, there is a strong continuum of haplogroups, subclades of E1b1, across the entire African continent, and Southern Europe. Linguistically, Berber goes back to the expansion of Afro-Asiatic. Genetically, linguistically, the Berbers ancient history is linked to East Africa. So... why are there no images of Black Berbers in this article? https://www.google.com/search?q=black+berbers&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidtJ-4vqXfAhURyoUKHdg9Dg0Q_AUIDigB&biw=1278&bih=1288 83.84.100.133 (talk) 23:20, 16 December 2018 (UTC)


First of all here you're only speaking about the Y-Haplogroup E1b1b which is very old you should speak about the specific berber subclades like M81 which is not really present in east africa. There is also the mtdna of berbers why don't you speak about it ? + Here you've a made a mistake to think that languages are necessarily linked with genetics : a lot of people speak arabic but are still not arabs....or a lot of anatolians speak turk but only a minority of them came from central asia. And here some links so you can understand better berbers : https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

                                                                                       https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257290/
                                                                                       https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x

RELATED ETHNIC GROUPS? Iberians? Tatessians?! PICTS?!?! SAAMI?!?!?[edit]

In the infobox it says "related ethnic groups...Picts, Iberians, Tartessians"

First of all, all those groups are ancient. Ancient ethnic groups should not be included here, since it's impossible to actually conform what ethnic group they were and the nature of that group. But Picts? seriously? I don't think I need to elaborate here, but the Picts were a celtic people from scotland 1,500 years ago... Tartessians and Iberians were both unidentified peoples from modern Spain and Portugal...thousands of years ago, from before roman conquest... SAMMI?! Thousands of miles away and totally unrelated... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.40.128 (talk) 03:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The claim for relation to Iberians and Picts comes from a 1956 paper, so I think it would really need a more recent reference to support it. That said, from skimming through the paper, it is arguing that the original population of the British Isles came from Iberia (a claim that I have seen made in a number of sources, and seems to be plausible), and that they in turn came from North Africa. So there may be a germ of truth in the claim. That said, claiming specifically that the Picts, as opposed to the British more generally seems overly specific (and probably wrong, as the idea that the Picts were a pre-Celtic relic population seems to be disproved). And claiming that the British and the Berbers are related on the basis of 3000 year old migrations from Iberia may be correct in one sense, but is hardly useful or meaningful as the same argument would make most groups in Europe, North Africa, or Western Asia related to each other.
The claim about relationship to the Saami, on the other hand, is based on a more recent (2005) mtDNA analysis, so may be more scientific. But this connection would have been about 9000 years ago (from the paper), and if it is meaningful to list a relationship on that basis, then again, presumably many more groups would need listing as well. Iapetus (talk) 12:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


- Edited here: Yes there is a correlation with picts, possibly because of the extent of Trade and previously unthought of trade between North Europe and North Africa. Including trade between Scandinavian regions and North Africa - Anonymous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.16.67.82 (talk) 08:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

3500 ??[edit]

3500 Berbers in israel ????????!? i thought there were 1 million moroccans in israel, and most moroccans are ethnically berber ! what a nonsense... any advice ? Macadam1 (talk) 10:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes but at least of of Morrocan Jews are Sephardi but the majority of Algerian Jews and Libyan Jews are Berber Jews as well as a significant amount of Morrocan jews Dahound575 (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

A little over a quarter of the Morrocan Jews are Berber and most Morrocan Jews are a mix of Sephardic Jewish ancestry and Berber ancestry Dahound575 (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Merged text[edit]

Some text from the History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology article was merged into this article with this edit. Page history for attribution can be found at Talk:History of Carthage/History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Terminologically[edit]

The native people of north Africa refuse this term and don't recognize it, But they call themselves "The Amazigh people" or simply the Amazighs and their language "Tamazight", As i found the term in old Egypt, Egyptian hieroglyphs: the Amazigh term.

could you check and review in English Wikipedia historically, logically, terminologically, chronologically this term as title.

thanks. محمد بوعلام عصامي *«Md.Boualam» (talk) 12:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes they refuse this term, but the majority of sources refer to them as "Berbers" then Berbers is what we should use, per WP:COMMONNAME. --Aṭlas (talk) 16:32, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
The linked guidelines state "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." Given that the common English name is rejected by the people themselves, should we not opt for the other common name, their chosen descriptor?2601:401:501:F990:BD2F:9BDD:CE0B:8386 (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Claiming that they have been termed Berbers in the majority of sources does not validate the known racist connotations and the base rejection of the terminology by the people themselves. This article should be renamed Amazigh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:2B40:9100:BCBD:262F:FE:6450 (talk) 01:31, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea of any "racist connotations" here, but it is clearly cultural imperialism to insist that native English speakers name people or places not with the words they are familiar with but with others which are strange to them. Consider: I would not wish to abuse French people, in speaking to each other in French, for calling countries "Angleterre" or "Pays de Galles" instead of "England" or "Cymru"! Deipnosophista (talk) 08:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

It does have a negative connotation. Berber comes from Barbarian.CaliphoShah (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The figures are wrong[edit]

There are a lot of wrong figures, i will correct some of them — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.166.177 (talk) 13:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The populations are wrong[edit]

At the turn of the 21st century, there were perhaps 14 million in Morocco, 9 million in Algeria, and much smaller numbers in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and Mauretania; in the Sahara of southern Algeria and of Libya, Mali and Niger, the Berber Tuareg number about 1 million. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Berber — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dukkani (talkcontribs) 19:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The low is for non-arabized Berbers, and the high for non-arabized and arabized Berbers. Soupforone (talk) 04:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I restored the figures, they were removed by an IP user on March 5th Tarook97 (talk) 07:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

@Soupforone: can you find another source supporting 32 million population of Berbers in Algeria? I am sure there are none and this is an overestimation. Capitals00 (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

───────────────────────── It is ~32 million rather than exactly 32 million. This estimate is 80% of Algeria's population (a common high estimate [1]). Soupforone (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

"Name"[edit]

"A history by a Roman consul in Africa" makes no sense. A proconsul? A governor? From Africa? About Africa? And what was his name, what the title of the history, does it survive? I propose deletion. Deipnosophista (talk) 08:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified[edit]

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Singular or Plural: The easy way[edit]

To User:Soupforone Consistency is pretty important. ⵉⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵏ / ⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖ is the Tamazight words for Berbers and Berber respectively. The first one literally reads as Imazighen and the second is Amazigh. You don't even have to be fluent in Berber, you can reasilly look up it's alphabet. Or look up wikitionary or any source in Berber. So in order to be consistent, those two should be the only thing in the info box.

When it comes to the intro, there is no need to add in Amazighen in plural. Yes, there is one source (in French) that implies it is interchangeable with Imazighen. But you won't find much use of the spelling "Amazighen" in English. In fact, ⵉ reads as "I". Any native Berber speaker will easily corroborate what I'm saying. Go ahead and call someone who knows Berber. CaliphoShah (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Imazighen is indeed the plural Berber transliteration. Amazighen is a Latinized rendering of the singular Amazigh [2]. Anyway, per Template:Infobox ethnic group, the group infobox parameter defaults to the pagename. The pagename is Berbers (plural). It appears that the native name parameter is for the name in the local language, so that is the parameter for the plural and singular transliterations. Soupforone (talk) 03:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't seem appropriate to specifically include the rarest way to write Imazighen because one source mentions it. The page name is of course plural but that doesn't mean the singular form in Tamazight cannot be mentioned. In the info box, the singular form is mentioned. So it would make sense to include the more common singular latinized form. No one is questioning the title of the Infobox which would obviously be "Berber". You're doing a strawman argument there.CaliphoShah (talk) 23:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, to make the info box more consistent with the changes. "ⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖ" should be removed as that is just the singular form. CaliphoShah (talk) 23:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Tunisia in the infobox is a joke[edit]

110,000 or >6,589,652? What? Can we please improve this at least some? --AmaryllisGardener talk 02:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

They are 2 separate estimations that population is either 110,000 Berbers in Tunisia or 6,589,652 Berbers. Capitals00 (talk) 06:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

/* Languages */ dubious-not supported by source given[edit]

Britannica doesn't say anything about Egyptian branching off of Berber.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

The tradition was that Berber are Egyptians. Magherbin (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Length[edit]

The history section is very informative and well-sourced, but also very long. I suggest creating a new article titled History of the Berbers and then converting the existing section into more of a summary. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 12:05, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

  • I agree, a new Wikipedia article specifically focusing on the history of the Berber peoples is necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.114.246 (talk) 00:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - The existing history section is lengthy and has enough existing citations to justify a content fork and create a viable article. 79.72.251.56 (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Support — Per discussion, above. HopsonRoad (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - the "readable prose size" of this article is 84 kB and so falls under the "Probably should be divided" of WP:TOOBIG. And yes: we shouldn't just split the section off, there still needs to be a short summary of Berber history on this page. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 16:12, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Question: Are the Amazigh - Berbers also original canaan jews?[edit]

Clearly during the settlements of cities on North African continent must have mixed and brought the original phoenicians - ie Canaanites into the Region, hence bringing with them Tanit - or Ashtarte and Baal Hammon, basically making some modern day Libyan citizens actually descendants of Original Jews of Lebanon and 'Israel'.... Basically. Correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.16.67.82 (talk) 08:19, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

About statistics[edit]

I hope to stick to the statistics numbers in the references ... This why called a "reference". please open all references and check .I do not see the number 100 million anywhere .The same number conflicts with Infobox Benohamid (talk) 08:01, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Inconsistent assertions about Augustine's Berber ancestry - yes, 'unproven', yes[edit]

I share the first and third opinions of Augustine's Berber ancestry (his mother's name "Monica" indicates that), but will ask that a neutral editor resolve the inconsistency in the article among:

  1. "Some of the best known of the ancient Berbers are the Numidian king Masensen, king Yugerten, the Berber-Roman author Apuleius, Saint Augustine of Hippo, and the Berber-Roman general Lusius Quietus..."
  2. "The Roman era authors Apuleius and St. Augustine were born in the Roman province of Africa; claims that they had Berber ancestry are unproven."
  3. "Scholars generally agree that Augustine and his family were Berbers, an ethnic group indigenous to North Africa,..." [citing: "Augustine was an outsider—a native North African whose family was not Roman but Berber..." from Cantor, Norman (1993), The Civilization of the Middle Ages, Harper, p. 74'.]

A text 'find' on the name Augustine will locate all these. Thanks! – Raven  .talk 21:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@.Raven: I removed the WP:OR part from the second opinion. M.Bitton (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
@M.Bitton: Thank you for that, and for the added precision (Africa → Numidia); also thanked via click-on-edit. – Raven  .talk 01:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
My pleasure. M.Bitton (talk) 23:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)