Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive118

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Old pages[edit]

Resolved: Done. Deleted many, "whitelisted others". JERRY talk contribs 17:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

We've got quite a few old pages in the Talk: namespace that should probably be moved or dealt with. This list shows /Delete subpages and /Temp subpages. Some of the /Temp subpages are pure vandalism, others are getting to be quite old. The /Delete subpages are (I presume) from before AfD; my view is that these pages should be moved to the appropriate place (i.e., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/whatever) and then have the redirects deleted and perhaps have the links updated with a bot. Anyone care to weigh in? Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

There's no good reason for the redirects to be deleted. Please do not do this. --- RockMFR 21:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't really care, but why would we not delete the redirects? Presumably, if there is a redirect, it was where someone created a /Temp copy while WP:CP was dealing with the original; then the original copyvio was deleted and the temp copy was moved on top of it, leaving the redirect. What use would that redirect serve? --B (talk) 00:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Deleting redirects can be harmful and redirects are free. Dureo (talk) 04:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Neither of those situations applies here - the redirects are simply the result of moving the temporary page to the live one after a copyright issue was resolved. --B (talk) 05:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Redirects are cheap, but not free. If nothing links to those redirects, they should be deleted. EdokterTalk 11:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
All of the Blahwhatever/delete pages have been renamed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blahwhatever.
About half (~300) of the /Temp (including redirects) have been deleted. 55 of them (so far) were found to be still required.
There is now ~300 more to do. This list now has instructions and archive boxes for the completed items. JERRY talk contribs 05:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
130 left to do. JERRY talk contribs 14:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
50 left. JERRY talk contribs 16:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Done. JERRY talk contribs 17:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Village pumps[edit]


A dynamic IP user was vandalizing all of the Village pumps. (See Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)‎, Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance), Wikipedia:Village pump (technical), Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), and Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)‎.) I have s-protected all of them. Because they are always kept move protected, I wasn't able to use expiring protection. If I'm not around to do it, can someone remove the s-protection at some point in a day or so? (Optionally, if you can figure out the right range to block for the IP and are satisfied that it won't cause collateral damage, that's fine too.) --B (talk) 16:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I considered a range block and it's just not feasable in this case. --Deskana (talk) 16:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I have yet to try one because I wouldn't know what I'm doing and would probably wind up blocking most of the planet. ;) --B (talk) 16:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
There are days when I think that wouldn't be a bad thing. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI, I have removed the edit protection on all five pumps, leaving in place only the move protection that was already there. --B (talk) 06:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Disruption to Template:Stourbridge Town Branch Line[edit]

Could an admin please look at the edits by User: please. There have been various discussions about the format of this template, and the clear consensus was to have the template in this format - i.e. showing a connection. See the following discussions:

These clearly show consensus, and User: is the only active opponent. However, he has been constantly reverting the template, accusing me of ignoring consensus and falsely giving me vandalsim warnings. I am no longer prepeared to tollerate this disruption. Could someone please take appropriate action. Thank-you. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC) (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)[edit]

I just blocked the IP with no warning for 48 hours based on this, this and this. I have no idea what any of it is about but I did notice that there is a Mabuhay (talk · contribs). The IP is from Australia as is J Bar but C Fred is from the US (got that from their user pages). CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

And I just emailed the contact address with the information. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but the ip is part of a /16 pool of dynamic addresses, so he may be back. -JodyB talk 12:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah perhaps 767-249ER (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) may be related to all this. See such nice things like this. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that's the user behind it. See the edit to my talk page, which links it pretty clearly to 767-249ER in my book. Doubly since I blocked that user for personal-attack comments he made toward J Bar; his unhappiness about the block would explain the venom directed at me. —C.Fred (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Block on User:Ceoil; Review please[edit]

- This 48 hour block seems uncalled for, for a "threat" to Betacommandbot. Could somone please check it out. Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 12:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems totally uncalled for. I have left a note for the blocking admin, and am willing to unblock if there is any support here. Ceoil was not quite as gentle about it as he might have been, but nothing he said seems blockable. DGG (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Appears excessive with very little history to provide any reason. Blocking admin should have bought it here for review at the least. Support unblock at this time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, totally excessive block. Not helpful. I support an immediate unblock. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Support unblock. henriktalk 13:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
(Copied here at his request). We now have 4 admins above supporting unblock (block is now 12 hours old) and blocking admin is offline. Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC):
  • The initial indefinate block shows that Jmlk17 was being reflexive and did not look into the situation.
  • Ditto for Ryanjcole's septic "Get over yourself" comment on bettacommandbot's talk. Do these people have any substance?
  • The block is transparently punitave.
  • The phrase "driven off wikipedia" has been diluted through overuse, but if you want to find a good example look at the broken bones and dust left in this bot edit history. I sincearly think he does way, way more harm than good, he is consistently incivil, remote, and unresponsive. This needs to be stopped. Ceoil (talk) 13:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
If you want to propose a better way to protect us from copyright hell, please do. Ignoring for a moment the current case, we already know that serial uploaders of found-it-on-the-web-somewhere images dislike Betacommandbot, as they have disliked every other editor, admin or bot who has worked to enforce WP:FUC and WP:C. Some of these have indeed been driven away because they are unable to upload their images without being challenged. It may be an unfashionable view, but I say we can do without people who are unwilling to work within policy on unfree content. As far as I can tell, most genuinely valuable contributors fix the problem by adding a proper fair-use rationale rather than hurling invective at Betacommand or leaving in a huff. Maybe instead of beefing people could help word better talk page messages for the bot? Guy (Help!) 13:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
We can block Betacommand bot and not worry a thing about copyright. For one thing, it tags images based on more restrictions on fair use than is legally necessary. It's all about Betacommand's personal belief in "non-free" content. He's going to force us all to be free by deleting all of our "non-free" images. It doesn't matter if they're fair use (i.e., legal). I can understand why you don't mind the bot screwing up all of our images because you never upload any content. This bot is in my opinion a vandal bot, but buddies of Betacommand like you keep on unblocking it.--Temp54 (talk) 23:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is fundamentally a free content project; what one calls "fair use", another could just as easily call "stealing" -- if we can't make it, we'll take the hard work of someone who did and call it our own. There are cases where this can be justified, and cases where doing so is harmful to the core goals of the project. Note also that the Foundation's policies are more restrictive than is legally required (because Wikipedia is, again, fundamentally about free content). The problem in this particular case seems to have less to do with fair use policy, and more to do with an argument between frustrated people. Also, is there some reason you're posting under a throwaway account? – Luna Santin (talk) 23:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It is a free project. Anything we're free to use and view is free content, in my opinion. I disagree that it's stealing since no one has been deprived of anything by using it here. I'm not sure how you can say that we're calling it our own work when we have to spell out every detail about the image including who made it, where it came from, and under what legal and policy rationale it can be used. Even after doing those things, the bot still tags images because it's written to find excuses to delete images. We have to remember that we're an encyclopedia, not a political organ. As for your second question, I was angry, so didn't want to look like a troll.--Temp54 (talk) 23:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the bot does do screwy things sometimes, e.g. [1] this tag was my last experience with it. But it was easy enough to say to myself "stupid bot" and make the upload compliant. -- Kendrick7talk 23:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Its not the principal of copyright that I have a problem with, its the indiscrimanate, sanctomonous (remember his 'fucktard' reply), insulting, 29 actions per minute, unthinking robotic patronising attitude that I find insulting, wanton, and almost autistic. Ceoil (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems like the ends justify the means on this website, because basically, that is what you said JzG. Ceoil (talk) 14:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Its the 'Ignoring for a moment' comment, that causes these problems. Ceoil (talk) 14:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
An established, productive featured article writer was indef blocked for apparently insulting a bot? What have I missed, what justified the indef block, and the spirit of "don't template the regulars" is that we attempt to sort out the random copyright violators, trolls and vandals from our valued and productive editors before we punitively block them, adding to the graveyard of bones and dust referred to by Ceoil. I should disclose I admire Ceoil's work because there are less than a handful of editors on Wiki willing to dig in to a featured article review to get no credit for salvaging someone else's work; it's a thankless task, and Ceoil does it all the time. I'm concerned about how fast this admin's fingers were on the block trigger. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to put this list up here, for the record; sometimes editors who quietly go about the business of improving Wiki and who stay out of trouble get overlooked. A quick review (I know I've missed some) of other people's articles restored to featured status by Ceoil includes Augusta, Lady Gregory, H.D., Heavy metal music, Imagism, Punk rock (one of Wiki's five oldest continuous FAs, featured since 2004), Representative peer, Royal Assent and William Butler Yeats. I'm sure there are more. Of note, he restored several of these with Outriggr (talk · contribs), who recently left Wiki, possibly explaining some of Ceoil's current frustration. The reward for restoring a featured article to status is no entry at WP:WBFAN, where Ceoil has six articles listed nonetheless. I'm not saying doing this amount of work excuses any possible violations, but trigger happy bot and admin actions are a concern if an established, productive editor is treated on par with trolls and copyright violators. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Exactly re treated on par. The issue is vandel fighters having more buttons than content people; we dont trust each other (with good reason), they think we are extendable cogs, we wonder why the fuck they are here and what they get out of it. Bad state of affairs. My preference is that this block baloons into a wider discussion.Ceoil (talk) 15:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
That is the issue in a nutshell, regardless of what JzG thinks. I support you 100%. —Viriditas | Talk 00:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that's an excessively broad generalisation. There is, however, an inevitable tendency to develop tunnel vision when dealing with specific areas of abuse, such as non-free content abuse, and forget that non-free content is actually allowed, albeit with caveats and used in moderation. Every now and then I come across a user whose talk page consists of nothing but dozens of unfree content warnings, and I had for a while an image on my watchlist that was recreated once a week or more often with precisely the same problem, no FU rationale and no copyright information, each time by a "brand new user". Guy (Help!) 17:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It is broad yes, and maybe unfair to the specific people involved. There is a wider issue; I'm not sure if its that a small pool of admins are overworked, or that the inherent distrust between content people and power people is getting to the stage that it just cant be ignored. I was indef blocked, thats no small thing, something is wrong here. Ceoil (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Abuse? Abuse. Please, leave that kind of projection at the door. I'm not a fucking idiot, don't treat me like one. Conjectiour is cheap; that is why Im protesting. Ceoil (talk) 18:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
T'was the block before Christmas
and all through the house
Ceoil could not edit 'cause
Jmlk17 clicked his mouse

Just be glad you were only blocked for 48 hours, and someone who cared noticed. It's a Christmas miracle!! -- Kendrick7talk 17:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick, Im not sure if you comment "Just be gald" is ironic or not. Please be clear. Ceoil (talk) 18:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Gosh. It is insulting to have one's record sullied by a block log, blocks should be taken very seriously, and it's common for some discussion to ensue before the tools are applied, particularly with an indef. It is not something to be taken lightly; I hope all admins understand the seriousness of adding a block to someone's record. Ceoil is now forever labeled as threatening and harassing other users. Kendrick, the poem was cute and funny ... unless you happen to be the person who now has that charge on your record. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
To paraphrase Sandy, adminship IS a big deal, and actions have consquences. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
If Ceoil had made the same edits as a newbie, he probably would have been indef blocked, and no one would have thought twice; he just got lucky with the timing here. Those articles never reached feature article status, George, and all the men on that transport died.... -- Kendrick7talk 18:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC
Maybe you should take a more substantive view before you but in with moral openions. I WAS indef blocked. I said first that this was a reflexive admin action; thats my central point. This attidude is the problem Ceoil (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I have unblocked per the discussion here, and will notify the blocking admin. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks all, for prompt action! Johnbod (talk) 13:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I've been more graceful in past arguments-these things happen-but thanks anyway for prompt action per Johnbod. Ceoil (talk) 14:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Common sense finally prevails, so it's nice to see Wikipedia isn't totally off its trolley. I'm also extremely happy that SandyGeorgia hasn't let Ceoil's contributions go unnoticed. Wikipedia would be much greater with more editors like Ceoil. :) LuciferMorgan (talk) 18:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
And no comment from Bettacommand. How wonderfully consistent. Ceoil (talk) 18:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy about that. If he did comment, I think I'd have another block to my account (a lengthy one indeed). I run a music website, and record labels encourage me to put the album covers up. I even have PRs from the record labels sending me the covers via attachment. Not once have I needed to use a fair use rationale. LuciferMorgan (talk) 18:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Obviously not, because you have permission from the record label. If Wikipedia had such written permission, you wouldn't need one here either. Because of our licensing, though, that's very unlikely to happen.BLACKKITE 19:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Permission alone is insufficient for use on Wikipedia, see {{Withpermission}}. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I worded that clumsily; I meant that such a company would be unlikely to license their works through the GFDL. BLACKKITE 00:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Very clever Black Kite, but what you said has fuck all to do with this agrument. Thanks, you exclempified my point. We are ruled by a disinterested oligarcy who are interest first and foremaost with having bits on a top 10 website and building an Encylopedia second. Ceoil (talk) 19:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Encyclopedia yes, but you will notice that the word "Free" appears in front of it in the top left hand corner. Also, I was only replying to LucfierMorgan's point about record companies. Oh, and WP:CIVIL. BLACKKITE 20:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
But. Why? To show what you know? Back off, this has nothing to do with you. Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
With respect to an earlier comment, I hope we all would have responded just the same if it had been a newbie. It might however not have seemed quite so obvious. DGG (talk) 19:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
If it had been.? You remeber !!, right. Rember I am now a 'haresser'. I am a very open person IRL, i talk to people I like about articles I am working on. Harress is now just a click away. I uploaded a picture of my face. Not very fucking funny. Ceoil (talk) 19:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ceoil, I think we all know you're unjustly blocked and you're angry about it. We get the point. But can you please, um, tone down your statements? We do have a civility policy here. You're not endearing yourself and helping us sympathize with you by throwing uncivil comments in our faces. —Kurykh 20:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

You miss the point completly and utterly. BrusH under the carpet? There's no problem? Naw, no, nein. Thats child's play. Ceoil (talk) 20:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
You just misinterpreted my entire statement. Clarified below. —Kurykh 20:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It's obvious that Ceoil right now is justifiably and significantly upset, on top of already being concerned about Outriggr's departure from Wikipedia and ugly business recently including the !! Affair. The commentary on Ceoil's block log was severe. As fas as I understand about block logs, that commentary isn't ever going away. Am I wrong? Any discussion that downplays right now how it feels to have that kind of block log commentary will probably only succeed in making Ceoil more upset. Addressing the underlying issues might be more helpful than telling Ceoil to be glad he was only blocked for 48 hours. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying that Ceoil doesn't have the right to be upset. Ceoil has every right to be. But some of these comments, from the standpoint of someone who is uninvolved and hasn't commented earlier in this dispute, are toeing the line. Otherwise, I agree with your statements. I'm not downplaying Ceoil's statements and sentiments; I am trying to tone down the flames so that more constructive dialogue can take place. —Kurykh 20:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, can you try the tactic of not asking Ceoil not to be angry, when he is very obviously very upset? Asking him not to behave like he's angry (particularly without addressing the underlying issues) when he is angry isn't going to work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I was asking him to tone down his statements, and no more. Why are people so intent on misconstruing my statements? We're not resolving the dispute here if we have all heat and no light. —Kurykh 21:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
With respect, if you think that Ceoil is the only person who's really really frustrated with the way administrators are treating other editors on this project then you are incredibly mistaken, Kurykh. "Helping us sympathize with you"? I'm stunned that you would make this sort of comment. It's actually a terrifying sort of attitude. Admins and editors are all in this together. You know that, right? --JayHenry (talk) 20:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that us was meant as other editors rather then administrators. Snowolf How can I help? 20:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
But only an administrator could possibly be unsympathetic to Ceoil in this situation! Is that the lot of mere content contributors? Write some of the project's best articles, make one frustrated comment, get indef'ed with no discussion, have no right to be upset about it because it was changed to 48 hours? It would be hilarious if we weren't losing our best contributors because some admins continue to behave this way. --JayHenry (talk) 21:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Getting mad over a block just proves the block was correct in the first place.[2] Off with his head!! -- Kendrick7talk 20:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kurykh, seriously why are you commenting here. The last few posts above, and in paticular yours, sunstantiate my claim. These last few posts are drive by, ill-judged, ill-informed, random excuses by admins who missed the cusp of my argument. I'm not really interested in talking to you. Ceoil (talk) 21:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I think some admins need to be more hesitant to pull the block button. A bad block can easily do a lot more damage than holding off on the button. If Ceoil would have left the project over this, the project would have lost quite a bit more than it would had everyone watched and waited. Has the blocking admin apologized yet? Gimmetrow 21:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The blocking admin went offline 12 hours ago, before this thread started. —Kurykh 21:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I see. Gimmetrow 21:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't watch this page and noticed this thread by accident. I am posting just to back up the comments above that Ceoil is one of the most valuable editors on this project. I understand fair use issues, and I see it's important, but if the process of enforcement leads to blocking an editor like Ceoil for a fairly mild expression of irritation, then I think it would be worth reconsidering the methods used to enforce fair use. Please think about the long-term effect on the project of losing Ceoil; we gain editors like him rarely and lose them far too easily. Mike Christie (talk) 21:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

here is my two cents, comments such as there will be a holy war personally bring up a scary parallel to terrorism and hint on a threat to my life. Using terrorist like terminology, along with abusive language, increases the similarity between the two. most admins would see that action and indef-block because of the obvious nature of the user, and possibility of physical harm. βcommand 21:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Great, now im a terrost. Im Irish, not american, terrosist means very different things here, so dont try and bully me with retarded insults. Funny, I did not expected a more sophistaded argument from you. Did I already mention BC's use of the the word 'fucktard' the last time there was an icident like this. Ceoil (talk) 21:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The issue is becoming clearer. Delicate work should be in diplomatic hands. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me? What is meant by the obvious nature of the user? Do you honestly want us to believe Ceoil was threatening your life? This is quite a dramatic charge. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, come on. That was a rather silly comparison, BC. You definitely know how your fair use work can be perceived , and handing ungraceful comments is something that goes along with that job. We can't have situations like this blowing up every other week forever. henriktalk 21:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with that, Mike. The people who spend so much time writing content definitely deserve better than this from us admins. At the very least, before blocking an experienced and established editor in good standing (like Ceoil) where there is no immediate harm being done, they deserve a thourogh discussion on AN/I. But with that said, mistakes are made and will continue to be made, and a block certainly isn't the end of the world.
I think there is a fair amount of disconnect between some content contributors and some admins, and a bit of understanding and good faith from both sides is needed. We all need to recognize that no-one is perfect, mistakes are made, and the best we can do is try to fix them and move on. Holding on to grudges and staying mad will just make this project less pleasant for all. henriktalk 21:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Light at last. I don't upload images for these very reasons, but now that I've seen how the person behind the BetaCommand Bot responds to other real people, I'm wondering if we can't get this bot assigned to a person with more advanced diplomatic skills and level headedness? By nature, this bot's work leads to hard feelings, and the person behind it should be careful, responsive and considerate. I'm wondering if its duties are in the best hands. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This editor was blocked for deliberately trying to provoke a "war" [3]., and since unblocking he has continued to do everything possible to bring such warfare down on our heads. Why was he unblocked? --Tony Sidaway 21:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
You just illustrated the disconnect Ceoil was describing perfectly, Tony. Jeffpw (talk) 21:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Consensus. The first four people to comment thought the block excessive with regard to the reasons given - and I did exactly what Jmlk17 did; act in what I thought was the best interests of the project.LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree that there appears to have been consensus on unblocking. Let me clarify. On what grounds was it decided that condoning Ceoil's loutish attacks was likely to be good for the project? --Tony Sidaway 23:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
On the grounds of freedom of speech. Furthermore, "this editor" as you call him actually contributes ten times more to the project than Betacommand ever has. Let me ask another question: on what grounds was it decided that condoning Betacommand's loutish, absolutely stupid behaviour on Wikipedia is likely good for the project? Betacommand has driven away more editors singlehandedly than anyone I can think of. Ceoil's comments were truthful, and I 110% agree with them. Before you start questioning what Ceoil said, perhaps you should start questioning why image taggers are deemed more valuable than content writers. It's about time someone spoke up for the majority. LuciferMorgan (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The consensus was that the block was inappropriate - that does not mean that the comments by Ceoil were condoned. I was one of two who said that the duration was excessive, which implies that some sort of sanction may have been justified; perhaps a stern warning would have sufficed, giving an opportunity for Ceoils supporters to have voiced any misgivings prior to any action. In the matter of loutish attacks being grounds for such harsh blocks, other parties to this discussion have not been so remanded for language that was found offensive. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Since when is making violent threats "freedom of speech"? Corvus cornixtalk 05:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
"Violent"? Are you a little slow or something? Or do you actually believe Betacommand's demented claim that his life was being threatened? When he threatened holy war, he meant it metaphorically. He meant that he would take tell Betacommand where to get off (and rightly so), and not roll over and die. So.. people here think Ceoil's the latest member of Al Quaeda now then? I mean, really. LuciferMorgan (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The duration was indef, which is a bit more than excessive. Dont wipe that raw fact away. Ceoil (talk) 01:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The original block was indefinite, but was changed within a few minutes to 48 hours. The block that was discussed was the 48hour block, which was considered excessive. Had the indef tariff remained it would have likely been referred to in much stronger terms. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Fairly unfashionable but seasonal statement by LessHeard vanU[edit]

It is very easy to take sides in an argument - so that is what I am going to do; I have never come across Ceoil before, but it is obvious that they are a well regarded editor who does a thankless task in keeping Wikipedia flagship articles (the FA's) concurrent and up to scratch. Betacommand(bot), who is familiar to me since I have both WP:AN and WP:ANI on my watchlist, is a perhaps less well regarded by some (but not all) editor/bot(operator) who does a frequently thankless - to the point of dislike - task in attempting to keep the images that populate Wikipedia concurrent with the licensing and useage policies that exist. True to my wishy washy liberal outlook I support both sides of the argument (but prefer there wasn't the argument in the first place) since both parties are here for the betterment of the encyclopedia.

I would also wish to comment that I note that Jmlk17 is getting quite a bit of stick for their actions. It is part of the admins lot that they are often going to make decisions that will make people unhappy, and that from time to time that they are going to make mistakes (that is, a decision or action they thought appropriate but is considered by others to have been wrong). Whatever the circumstances of Jmlk17's block of Ceoil I cannot believe that it was done in any other consideration than that it was in the best interests of the encyclopedia. It was, perhaps, a mistake of Jmlk17 to have blocked such a contributor as Ceoil for the type of comments made toward Betacommand, but it should not be taken as an example of a poor sysop. It was likely just a mistake. It is not in the interests of the encyclopedia to lose such valued contributors as Ceoil or Betacommand or Jmlk17.

Thats not the point. The point is comments like "Getting mad over a block just proves the block was correct in the first place", or "Just be glad you were only blocked for 48 hours", and "Why was he unblocked". Distintersted blocking, and shallow follow ups. Ceoil (talk) 22:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It is very soon Christmas - so can we extend just a little of that spirit to all the parties here? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the sanity injection. There are some fellows in this world who will not forgive their fellow Wikipedians as they ought and I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!!
That prooves my point exactly. Are you people fucking deaf? Accountability? Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Satire apart - everyone - please, just calm down. Nobody died. Really. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
All for seasonal peace. This is more about a personality clash than fair use policy. Righteous indignation is a poor defense mechanism. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 22:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Hear, hear. Glögg and gingerbread cookies for everybody. henriktalk 22:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I apreciate the fuzzyness, but its too late to wash this under the carpet. Ceoil (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Update: the blocking admin graciously and robustly apologized. Kudos of respect. But seeing BC's posts here, the source of the initial friction is now more understandable. A bot that is performing a chore that is by nature going to generate heat should be in the hands of a diplomatic user. "Fucktard", asking us to believe his life was threatened and Ceoil's words could be equated with a terrorist: can this bot be reassigned or do others have suggestions for how to deflame that situation ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • This thread is a great illustration of the split between admins who think they should support contributors in building an encyclopædia and admins who think the content-providers are untrustworthy and need to be ruled with a big stick. The comments, and the admins making them, are entirely predictable. I doubt that this debate will change anything, but it is inevitable given the profound lack of accountability and consensus about the use and misuse of admin tools.DuncanHill (talk) 22:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
And this is not the first time this admin has acted inconsistently with his own stated principles, as seen here User:Rodhullandemu/Archive/04#November_2007. I'll accept that lots of page protection requests are unnecessary; but when you are the only editor around trying to stem the flood, being called a vandal is, er, inaccurate and unhelpful. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I have to admit I'm a bit confused. I see that Ceoil seems to have called Betacommand a "prick", then gone to point out having done so, then threatened a "holy war". Hardly outstanding behavior, but I get a feeling I'm not seeing the whole picture. What precipitated this? – Luna Santin (talk) 23:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Maybe he's been following Betacommand's amazing example of how to win friends and influence people?joke.DuncanHill (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Humor aside, it seems probable. Wouldn't be the first person Betacommand has pissed off with his trademark abrasiveness. But I'm hoping to see a more specific progression, if possible. Easier to understand a reaction in the context of the inciting action, so to speak. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is going to be brushed under the carpet again. Ceoil is asking admins to pay attention. If you look at the top featured content additions by editor at WP:WBFAN, that list alone raises questions. Several of those editors are weighing in here (I guess they follow Ceoil's page), but oh, by the way, where is Yomangani these days, and how is the Project treating its top contributors, scholars and gentleman like TimVickers? Anyone noticing? WBFAN tells only half the story; there is only a handful of editors like Ceoil who work both ends of the equation, bringing new content to WP:FAC and restoring someone else's older, deteriorated featured content at WP:FAR. Off the top of my head, Ceoil, TimVickers, Qp10qp, Yomangani, Marskell, Casliber, DrKiernan, Yannismarou, JayHenry, WesleyDodds, a few others. Lose one of these editors, and it bites; they're adding and fixing content at amazing rates. Wiki needs to ask how these editors are being treated and how they feel about the Project. And pay attention when they answer. If we can't treat our top content contributors well, it's frightful to consider how the other editors are treated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

  • What precipitated this is using a bot to enforce a sensitive policy that is bound to irritate people who work in good faith but do not understand the policy effectively, or who have been careless about it. This needs to be done by people who are sensitive, responsive, and available. Editors unhappy with it need to be told that it is not their fault, but that the policy must be enforced, and given a chance to correct their misassumptions about it. Betacommand's manner does have a GF explanation: dealing with all the complaints over the bot would drive anyone to some degree of exasperation. All the more reason for not using a bot, using a very friendly template, and adding personalized messages, apologising for the inconvenience, but explaining the necessity. "We're going to have to remove your image, if you do not explain exactly why it is appropriate to the article. I'll personally help you do it if necessary" is the sort of thing that needs to be said. Sure, there are tens of thousands of images to be fixed, but the feds are not about to shut us down tomorrow, and there are hundreds of experienced editors who can competently and politely explain image policy--and hundreds of polite admins. No one person has to adsorb it all.
  • So as a minimum, until we get rid of the bot, except for using it to make a list of suggestions that need looking at by humans, admins dealing with complainys arising from this ought to be as tolerant as possible, and calm down, not inflame the situation. Blocks are not intended to be punitive. Admins who use them insensitively should be informed by their fellows that they need to do it differently, or switch to admin tasks involving less personal contact. (but in this case it was just a single mistake, not a pattern of insensitive use.)
  • This applies equally to experienced and inexperienced editors. The job of an admin is to protect both editors and the encyclopedia. DGG (talk) 23:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Nicely said DGG. Ceoil (talk) 23:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It's worth reiterating how bizarre Betacommand's sole comment on this thread was, with the terrorist comparison and ridiculous suggestion that his life had been threatened. DGG's comments are well-stated—but suggestions of that sort will have little impact unless the bot operator engages with people sensibly (as the blocking admin did, after being taken to task). Marskell (talk) 23:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps instead of directing dozens of confused and sometimes angry editors to Betacommand's talk page, we create a fair use noticeboard/help desk/FAQ where people can respond to queries in a more organized format instead of leaving Betacommand to do most of the work. I don't think "friendlier" templates is the way to go, that might just seem patronizing to more experienced Wikipedians. Mr.Z-man 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
We do. It's called Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --Carnildo (talk) 03:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I am sayings admins are reflexive, dont look at the context of a situation; and here you are suggesting we streamline the process, for a bot? Ceoil (talk) 00:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that Betacommand not handle almost all the complaints and questions about fair use tagging by himself. Maybe then people wouldn't get uncivil responses to their complaints and situations like this wouldn't escalate to the point where a block would even be considered. Mr.Z-man 01:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Good idea - Betacommandbot certainly needs a Diplomatic Corps, and if other people were closely involved it would be easier to form a picture of the overall usefulness of its thousands of edits, and hundreds of complaints. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
We have so many noticeboards... But the idea might be explored and I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand Ceoil, as you've asked for feedback on how to avoid these problems. I agree simply having a friendlier template will only patronize. Marskell (talk) 01:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The Betacommandbot talk page - archived every few minutes - needs the sort of queen-ant attention the Jimbo talk page gets - the traffic is busier than there. Johnbod (talk) 01:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)`

I've been asked to tone down by emails. What the fuck? Ceoil (talk) 02:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

That was me. I meant the message exchange betwixt you and Tony Sidaway, as it was a little on the uncivil side. I just used the wrong word. Sorry for inciting any paranoia. The telepathic mind witches of the CIA are not reading your mind. These are not the droids you are looking for. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
No worries, Tony makes most people paroanoid. Ceoil (talk) 02:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Speedy unblock and censure blocking admin. Such an application of admin tools in this case is completely unappropriate. Jtrainor (talk) 03:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read the discussion before commenting, he was unblocked hours ago and the blocking admin has since apologized. Mr.Z-man 05:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't really get involved in these sort of things and haven't looked deeply into the situation, but I just wanted to say that Ceoil is a valuable editor and without Ceoil I would probably have at least 1 fewer FA. Don't block editors who've been around awhile without prior discussion. Wickethewok (talk) 04:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • As I sat on Santa's lap, I wished for a day without Betacommand drama. Unfortunately, like world peace, this appears to be an impossible dream. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Dismissive edits[edit]

This is fairly bad form, from Tony Sidaway' who came into the discussion, unsolicited, uninformed, made awful remarkes, and obviously feels they are above reproach (note the non edit summary, and minor edit marking). [4]. Ceoil (talk) 07:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats a good example of the reason why there is anger on the ground. I took him up on several insults he made towards me, and I was rv'd with a minor edit that did not carry an edit summary. Ceoil (talk) 07:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I asked some pertinent questions, and made some pertinent observations. This is normal. It's how Wikipedia works. I'm sorry if you felt insulted by my opinion that you had deliberately and egregiously baited an administrator. --Tony Sidaway 04:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No, you did not. You asked no questions, just offered openion. You took a snapshot view, and have been consistently onnixious and dismissive since I called you on it. This is normal. It's how Wikipedia works?? Dear jesus, do many other editors know about this? Breaking news, I imagine they would be alarmed. "Deliberately and egregiously baited an administrator" - So so false; what admin? BC? He was desyspoed, no longer an admin. Jmlk17? S/he had the integrity to apologise on his next edit, impressing all that took the time to look into it. My whole issue with you is that you did not look into this, reacted in a bitter and judgemental manner, and took no responsibility, begging the question - why do pontificate, is it you just like the sound of your own words, or what do you get from this. Ceoil (talk) 05:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The fallacy of a syspo being a janitor entrusted with a mear mop - no big deal - is patently redundant. IRL, janitors don't have the power to fire, or belong to higher collectives. But, yet on wiki they do. Adminship no big deal? On this webside IT IS a big deal, and it's inciivil to look a spade in they eye and say: spade. Ceoil (talk) 06:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The reason I asked why you had been unblocked was because (and I know this must come as a bit of a surprise to you) I wanted to know why you had been unblocked. --Tony Sidaway 23:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, sorry if asked for too much from a lightweight, and for things that your ego are unable to deliver. Ceoil (talk) 02:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Block on Fedayee; please review[edit]

I blocked Fedayee (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) for accusations of sockpuppetry after being warned to stop at WP:AN/AE; the user is yet to request another admin to review the block, but TigranTheGreat (talk · contribs) is determined that "We will make sure that [John Vandenberg] is stripped of that privilege," and has started following through on that. Please review my block. John Vandenberg (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Reasonable block, since it pertains to a request not to repeat uncivil behaviour which was ignored and the tariff is not excessive. Obviously preventative rather than punitive. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a fair block, especially considering the backdrop that this whole mess has been to arbitration twice, we're not exactly talking a common-or-garden content dispute or editor conduct review (I give this by way of background, as the AE was not cited as a block reason). Orderinchaos 12:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Was this fellow warned that if he persisted in his accusations of a someone being a sock he could be blocked? How long is his block for? I do see his point in that he perhaps didn't violate an actual policy, but we must remember that the lines between admin and editor is blurred when we are all encouraged to police each other. I use twinkle to issue warnings, report people for suspected sockpuppetry, vandalism, etc. But then again while bringing it up again and again may be annoying and not assuming good faith, is it really worthy of a block? I tend to be very lenient and prefer counseling before blocking. Bstone (talk) 17:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Worth looking at the backdrop here. Two arbitration cases, massive edit-warring, sockpuppetry, and incivility - and we still get these whopping great threads at ArbCom enforcement. We're all fed up of the never-ceasing conflict in this corner of the encyclopaedia. Checkuser has said that there is no connection between Ehud and Adil, and Fedayee's evidence is simply not good enough on its own. Under these circumstances Fedayee's conduct becomes disruptive. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 20:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Block is fine. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 puts Fedayee under several restrictions and he's been really quite disruptive recently. With checkuser saying thumbs down the link between Ehud and Adil has not been proved to my satisfaction, under which circumstances Fedayee has to put up with it. His persistent accusations of sockpuppetry are not verifiable and are certainly disruptive until such time as he gets better evidence. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference errors[edit]

Resolved: Fixed

I know this is not the usual place to post format problems but since most of these templates are protected my guess is that the problem's source is the work of a admin. The thing is that several reference templates that have been in place for months are sudenly reading "Cite error: Invalid ref tag; name cannot be a simple integer, use a descriptive title" in bold red, I have encountered the problem in Daniel Santos (boxer) and Elite (Halo) and in both cases extending the title didn't appear to to anything in previews, this is probably affecting the entire project seeing how many references use this reference format. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot of refeerences that have worked previously have been replaced with Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name cannot be a simple integer, use a descriptive title. Is there something wrong with the reference tag, or has someone vandalised it? Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I wasn't sure where to put it. Please move if appropriate. StuartDD contributions 22:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's been fixed now, purge if you can't see the changes. Spebi 22:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
What is the source of the problem? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
A software bug caused the problem; it was promptly fixed once it was reported. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

King David Isle of Man[edit]

King David Isle of Man BLP This WP:BLP is not being written an edited with any consistency for NPOV. I've attempted to do my best to bring issues back to NPOV including discussing the issues with some editors but, myself and other editors have pointed out on the talk page, it has slant towards a negative bias and does not seem to follow WP:BLP. It's a very new article and has a lot of contention about it. I feel it requires Administrator intervention. Thank you.--Lazydown (talk) 22:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing that appears to require admin work, all the issues can be resolved by doing cleanup and adding reliable sources, there is no edit warring or sufficient vandalism to warrant a protection either. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Can someone else take on the work the Betacommandbot does, realistically?[edit]

The work done to deal with inappropriate nonfree image use is very important and needful. Anyone saying differently is in my view, misguided at best, to put it mildly. The volume of work well nigh demands a bot to do it. Anyone saying differently doesn't really have a firm grasp on the volume, in my view. But it seems there are a lot of people who feel that Betacommand's approach to questions, issues and complaints could be improved, that someone else ought to be handling this, that in general things could be done better than they are. I agree. But I'm not in a position to volunteer to devote most or all of my Wiki-time to doing this task (and that is what it would take if one person did it). Is there someone (or some committee) among those pointing out the issues that has/have the bandwidth to do what Betacommand does in his stead? If not, then maybe the calls for Betacommand's head are misplaced. Remember our ethos here, don't just complain, be willing to be part of the solution. ++Lar: t/c 15:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The User:Betacommandbot page has this; "BetacommandBot will be an ongoing bot, run whenever I can run it, or feel like running it." It's embarassingly close to masochistic to accept being spoken to like that, even as part of a group; especially in a voluntary project. I say "Ban the Bloated Bot!" Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I second Mr.grantevans2 call to ban the bot. Who else thinks the bot should be banned? Feel free to state your opinions... LuciferMorgan (talk) 15:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I also support a ban.--Gnfgb2 (talk) 16:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
We need the bot. Perhaps community input will encourage the bot operator to be more considerate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Mr.grantevans2 and LuciferMorgan: Since you are responding to me: Do you acknowledge the necessity and importance of the work done? Are you volunteering to take on the operation of a bot and the fielding of the myriad questions and comments, including some quite incivil, and some quite lacking in understanding of the nature of copyright and fair use, that ensue every day from its use? ++Lar: t/c 16:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the bot's purpose, but not who's running it. Will (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The Bot does an important (and numbingly tedious) job, which benefits Wikipedia. I echo SandyGeorgia's comments regarding the operator. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC) (addendum) Lar, has the question of replacing the operator been asked at WP:BAG? LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I do not know. But that seems a possible good place to start asking, indeed. With no aspersions, and all best wishes, to Betacommand, who I think means well, has done a thankless job for a long time, and is doing the very best he is able at the task, perhaps it's someone else's turn in the barrel? I suspect those spending some time there might come away with a new appreciation for just how difficult, tedious and thankless of a task it is. ++Lar: t/c 17:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry Lar, but your kind words towards Betacommand are not felt here. I thank people who deserve to be thanked, and he does not. Furthermore, he is not doing the very best job he can. Don't lie here - he treats article writers like they're excrement on the bottom of his shoes, and barks orders at them like he's Adolf Hitler. I 110% do not acknowledge the necessity and importance of the work done - unless you forgot, this is an encyclopaedia. I acknowledge that writing articles is important and a necessity, though Betacommand's work (or waste of time crusade rather) does not fall into that category. It is not important at all, and it is not a necessity. I am 110% not volunteering to join the Fair Use Gestapo, and am quite shocked you thought I would want to. As concerns you mentioning Betacommand receiving incivil comments, then what about the incivility he has given others? Let's not shy away from that at all. Betacommand has driven away many editors from the Project, and will drive away many more if his tyranny continues. I repeat, ban the bot. Kill it. Exterminate it. Banish its existence. Wikipedia doesn't have many article writers as it is, so Betacommand driving them away certainly doesn't help. LuciferMorgan (talk) 18:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
"...barks orders at them like he's Adolf Hitler." I'm sorry, you've lost the debate. Chaz Beckett 18:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Two wrongs do not make a right. bibliomaniac15 18:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Banning the bot isn't wrong at all, in actual fact. Therefore, it isn't two wrongs. Betacommand and his bot run riot on Wikipedia, and nobody batters an eyelid. When people complain, it falls on deaf ears. As concerns allegedly losing the debate Beckett, just because I've said that Betacommand is like Hitler doens't mean I've lost the debate. That's according to Mike Godwin, and I do not subscribe to his opinions. Don't any of you get the picture? Are you all deaf, or being deliberately ignorant? Writing articles is what's important to this project, and this clown is driving people away. Less content writers = less quality articles. When all the FA writers like Ceoil have been driven away, who's going to write FAs instead? Are you all volunteering to? Or perhaps you think Betacommand will? Get real. Betacommand and his bot are pests, and nothing more. Ceoil was definitely right in what he said. LuciferMorgan (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, that's enough personal attacks and incivility. Can an admin please block LuciferMorgan yet again until he cools off a bit. Chaz Beckett 19:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Um, let's not. Civility blocks never work. LuciferMorgan is as wrong as can be on several different levels but I don't think that blocking him for expressing his views would be a good approach... I do wish he'd internalise why Fair Use images are so problematic for us and work to devise a better way of addressing the issue instead of polemicising, though. ++Lar: t/c 20:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Lar, you're referring to fair use images generally. I am referring to album covers specifically, which in my opinion do not need a fair use template. You keep referring to "polemicising", but the truth is you keep ignoring the fact that Betacommand drives editors away from the project. That's problematic, but I don't see anyone mentioning that. If Ceoil had walked away, that's an editor whose written six FAs the project would've lost. LuciferMorgan (talk) 00:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Album covers are not somehow exempt from the requirements for fair use rationale because they are album covers. Every fair use image needs a fair use rationale, without exception. That's not a matter of your opinion versus mine. It is a requirement, as spelled out by the directive to all projects that the WikiMedia Foundation has made. Every image that does not have a valid fair use rationale is subject to removal, and except for newly uploaded images, we have to be in compliance by March 2008. That date is fast approaching. You may propose different approaches if you wish, but it's not really a matter of debate, in my view. I have acknowledged that there are difficulties with the approach being used now, but I am also making what I think are constructive suggestions on what might be done better. You on the other hand are raising all sorts of issues, but not acknowledging that FU images have to be dealt with. Until you do that, you statements read like polemicising to me. I do not think that this process ought to drive good editors away from this project, and if it in fact is doing so, it needs adjusting. But the process, or another process that achieves the goal mandated, is needed and you are not helping improve it. As for Ceoil, I'm willing to discount the outrageously inappropriate way he has conducted himself in this matter as due to the fact that he feels insulted, but his approach is not likely to be effective at effecting change either. Our FA class editors are very important to the project but no one gets a free pass, and he could have achieved quite a bit more with a different approach. Don't confuse that with my supporting a block of him, by any means, because I do not, I would have lifted it myself. But I highly recommend reading and internalising meatball:ForgiveAndForget as carrying grudges doesn't work very well. ++Lar: t/c 03:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
"Outrageously inappropriate"? That's according to you, but I support that action even now. He hasn't apologised for it, and I am glad he hasn't. The next time Betacommand calls someone a "fucktard", I hope you're there to call that inappropriate too. He did not "feel" insulted, he was insulted. Furthermore, no FA editor has asked for a free pass. Did I mention a free pass? No. So why say it? I'm asking for a bit of respect for the people who write FAs here, but I don't see it yet. As concerns achieving "quite a bit more with a different approach", that's simply untrue. He would not have, since Betacommand's actions are still being excused even now. LuciferMorgan (talk) 15:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
As concerns carrying grudges, I do not carry a grudge. That's you grossly misreading the situation, and not even properly understanding what I am saying. I'm sorry, but I have a right to get pissed off whenever good editors are driven away from the project. You might not get pissed off whenever that happens, but I do. I'm fed up of Betacommand driving editors away, so that's why I've spoken up. LuciferMorgan (talk) 15:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
On a final note, I don't find you're being constructive. Saying you do "A, B and C" to help, and I don't do anything, is just blowing your own trumpet. Furthermore, I find that incivil and quite insulting too. Trying to categorise me as some unhelpful thorn in people's sides doesn't help, and is very unconstructive. I may be more abrasive than the average editor, but I do try to help. Betacommand's authoritarian approach doesn't help. In my opinion, it's time to rid of him and his bot. Then, someone, properly suited of course, should take over the reigns. LuciferMorgan (talk) 15:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The idea of battered eyelids is slightly nauseating, though. I would suggest that if LuciferMorgan does not accept the project's policies on unfree images he may be in the wrong place, per WP:FREE. Guy (Help!) 21:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
If you're trying to suggest that I retire from the project, then no I will not. Furthermore, I am fed up of people just using "per WP:Article0159" blah blah blah to justify themselves. Can't people even be bothered to express their opinions without acting like solicitors who have to quote this section, or that section? WP:FREE is just an article a few editors wrote anyway, and who is it that began that article? Essjay, a person outed as a fraud on Wikipedia. Also, the project as a whole didn't vote on the image policy - I didn't, or wasn't aware of it. As far as I am concerned, it's being forced on people. LuciferMorgan (talk) 00:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Correct. It IS being forced on this project, by the foundation. It will soon, in my view, become a condition of participation here that you adhere to this policy. I hope you choose to, but sooner or later, you may find that resistance to implementation of this foundation policy may be viewed by some as disruption. We didn't get a vote on it. Because this is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. ++Lar: t/c 03:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
This isn't as clear cut as you think. The war on album covers is ridiculous and entirely unnecessary - a boilerplate rationale would satisfy the legal requirements, and there is considerable precedent throughout the publishing world for using album covers liberally. Furthermore, the Board of the Foundation is elected and policy can change. Having stood in the last elections and fielded many questions on this it seems to me the average editor does not feel the same way on this issue as the small clique which run this place. Finally, unlike most people commenting here, Lucifer Morgan is actually a useful editor with several FAs under his belt; it is people like him that actually matter here because they write the articles. --kingboyk (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Expressing views is fine, but using personal attacks ("Betacommand is like Hitler", "Betacommand and his bot are pests, and nothing more.") is unacceptable. If he's emotional enough right now to be making such attacks, a cooling off period could work. Chaz Beckett 21:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Unacceptable according to you. A "cooling off period" as you call it won't work since I will still hold those very same opinions afterwards, and I have a right to hold them. If you don't like my opinions, I don't care. Referring to my block history is a rather sneaky attempt at getting others to approve your recommendation too, and one that is rather unoriginal too. If you wish to take potshots, come up with some new material so that I can at least be entertained. What I have said is the truth, so you can keep moaning about civility all you wish. Betacommand has driven editors away, a fact a block can't change. I am not in the minority here, but the only one willing to speak up. The reason why they aren't speaking up is because editors like you keep calling for blocks. And for what? I'll still hold the same opinions after, as I just said. It was a block to curb Ceoil's opinions that instigated this ANI in the first place, or hasn't anyone realised that yet? LuciferMorgan (talk) 00:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: "I am not in the minority here, but the only one willing to speak up", how could you possibly know that? Are you somehow in contact with the inner mind of all the other editors? Omnicience is rarely a valid claim on a resume. JERRY talk contribs 17:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You have every right to hold whatever opinion you want on anything at all. Where there is a line is when you act on the opinions in contravention of policy, or if you repeat your opinions so stridently or incivilly that you are being disruptive. I don't think that is the case here, at least not yet, but I urge you to participate in working constructively to find ways to ameliorate the problem rather than to make polemical statements. We are here to collegially work together to a common purpose, or should be and I'm not finding your contributions of late to this as very helpful yet. ++Lar: t/c 03:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Lar, to be honest, I don't find your contributions to this discussion helpful either. You keep repeatedly using the word constructive, as if to wind me up or something. I am not being disruptive, but merely keep repeating a fact that you and the rest of them here keep trying to brush under the carpet. Furthermore, you make statements like "We are here to collegially work together to a common purpose, or should be and I'm not finding your contributions of late to this as very helpful yet." Are you trying to say that I should step in line and not have my own thoughts now? The truth is, "we" as you keep referring to them is everyone here willing to brush Betacommand's tyranny under the carpet. There are others who feel the same way as me. My opinion is the bot needs to be killed, and it doesn't work. Whomever handles fair use images etc., it shouldn't be him. Find someone else to take over, and someone who actually takes the time to talk to editors. Someone who takes the time to kindly tell people about fair use. Someone who doesn't bark at them Someone who doesn't bombard editors pages with dozens of notices at a time. Someone should create a new bot, and then someone else should handle this new bot. Whichever way, keep Betacommand well away from it. To be fair, fair use annoys me but that's something to deal with. Betacommand's bullshit demeanour isn't something us editors should have to deal with. LuciferMorgan (talk) 15:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Not uninvolved parties comment: We are discussing if Betacommandbot does a worthwhile job, and if Betacommand is the appropriate operator, what (if any) are the alternatives, and not if LucifierMorgan should be sanctioned for voicing the frustration and anger felt by a section of the community which have lead to these questions being asked in the first place. Silencing those who complain (no matter how incivily) does not start to begin to address the crux of the problem being faced. Thank you. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree. I don't think that calling for blocks is at all helpful. Calling for positive input on the other hand... that is. LM needs to help solve the problem. ++Lar: t/c 03:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The bot talk page needs a number of editors who spend some time there & respond to complaints - most of which I'm sure are unjustified, but which usually get the same non-response whether they are or not. They should also be able to improve the quality of the edits the bot makes. Johnbod (talk) 19:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Or better still, kill the bot. LuciferMorgan (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
What would you replace it with? "nothing" is not an acceptable answer. There is a real problem to be dealt with and unless you have a better approach, taking shots at the basic concept is not helpful. ++Lar: t/c 20:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

If a bot is necessary, someone in the community will step up to make it. Betacommand's approach often creates problems in the course of providing a solution to the fair use image concern. These problems fit in a few general categories:

  1. Poor communication - Although many volunteers monitor BC's talk pages, he often neglects the responsibility of explaining the reasons for tagging an image. Also, when tagging images BC often falls back on WP:OMGWTFBBQ, which leads users to posit confused pleas to his talk page, which are then unanswered, etc. etc.
  2. Extreme immediate solutions to long term problems - This is actually damaging to the project as thousands of viable images are flushed because admins don't have the time or want to sift through the hyper-populated deletion queues which appear after BC runs his bot.
  3. Poorly thought out experiments - Most bot operators have to deal with difficulties when implementing any new task, but BC has a history of running unapproved tasks with poor results.

BC means well and appears to be an able programmer, but these problems, coupled with occasional lapses of civility, continually lead to drama. Many admins appear inclined to overlook such instances since BC's bot gets results and in most cases BC is clearly within policy. However that approach fails to address the fallout of disgruntled editors and the deletion of useful images. Mindless tagging will never completely solve the fair use problem and I don't think giving BC carte blanche is ultimately a good thing. I doubt BC would be willing to voluntarily cease any controversial actions, as he is fervent in enforcing WP:NFCC to the letter (and beyond). I equally doubt that BC's bot is irreplaceable or vital. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 19:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What if he was the programmer but someone else was the operator, and a team of someone elses fielded questions, updated the FAQ to point people to, etc? ++Lar: t/c 20:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
That would address the communication concerns. If this team also kept a clear schedule for bot runs and reviewed the deletion queue, I think the resulting process would eliminate most of the discussed problems. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I've discussed this issue with a very small number of my fellow administrators and we share the concerns of editors here, we appreciate that there is a perception that BCBot is evil and needs to be killed, but realistically, all that will happen is replacement bots will be introduced. One of the most chronic problems does appear to be the tagging of images as "orphans" that should not ordinarily be orphaned, and this is an issue that is outwith anybodies control, the problem occurs when an image with a well thought out rationale, detailed source is replaced, on a whim, with a different image, quite often, a higher resolution image taken from the day's press, and frequently uploaded without source or rationale. This can take several days to be resolved, and by that time, the image can end up being deleted. One proposal I am keen to push in this area is that a new, dedicated OrphanedImageBot is created and has it's own database so it can record, initially, which images are used in articles, and what articles those are. The bot would then run (continually, once every 24 hours, once a week, or whatever is deemed necessary) and if it notices an image that was previously used in an article is now orphaned, it informs the uploader and perhaps places a small template on the article talk page informing users that the image, if still orphaned after 7 days, will then be tagged for deletion. A second, totally seperate bot should run and look for images without source or Fair Use Rationale and tag those images as necessary, and ideally, list images once weekly in a central location together with details of where the images are used. Volunteers could then make the necessary fixes to prevent the image from being deleted. I'd also like to see Polbot with it's rationale fixes being used, it could be used by volunteers to automatically add a fair use rationale to images after a review, so it could look for a template placed on an image by a trusted user (a bit like the Commons Flickr review scheme) and if it finds a tag added by a trusted user, it would then automatically add a fair use rationale to the page. Details about the rationale could be changed by variables in the template. We also need make the warnings and notices much easier to understand, it's fine if you've been to Harvard and studied law, or been at the wrong end of Wikipedia dealing with image licences and copyright policy for many months or years, but a new user trying to upload a useful image will end up angry and frustrated at incomprehensible user warnings. Any comments, there's probably something I've meant to propose but haven't. Nick (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

About the orphaning of images, the major problem seems to be is that the checking for them does not occur often. There might be images that are orphaned for days that are not tagged, but some images will be tagged if orphaned for just a few hours. I still think we should seek out what images are orphaned, but we need a more stable way to do it. An idea me and other administrators I spoke to want to have some sort of database of images, then scan that for oprhans maybe once a week. This will allow discussions, vandalism replacements and other stuff. As for running it, I am not technically skilled to make one, but if I was given the code and allowed to execute said bot, I will do it. The problem with BCBot is that people will always assume he is an admin, though he is not. There is still a lot of core issues with BCBot that still exist, but I feel like a change of hands could make things better. Also, more precise messages could help too. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the best approach would be to have lots more people answering the queries thrown up by BetacommandBot's work. To do that would require Betacommand to give advance notice of tagging runs, so the 'team' can get ready to answer queries. Would Betacommand be willing to do that? Also, there needs to be a serious overhaul of the wording of the tags. Generic references to NFCC don't really help. An example is the 10c tagging. Most images fail 10c for one of three reasons: (1) No rationale at all; (2) Rationale fails to refer to the article by name; (3) Rationale doesn't make sense. A short, clear set of instructions advising people on how to fix the images, would do wonders. The problem then is if everyone fixed their images, we are back with the same problem of having to check all the images for NFCC#3 and NFCC#8 compliance. And that can't be done by bots. I'll repeat what I've said before - all this NFCC#10c stuff (most of the current work) is redundant to the work that will be needed for NFCC#3 and NFCC#8. But that's beside the point, because BetacommandBot can't (reliably) do NFCC#3 or NFCC#8 stuff. Carcharoth (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

On the usability front, at the moment BetacommandBot is actually repeating stuff in the tags, which is doubly confusing. Compare the following:

  • Long-winded and unclear:

    • Shorter and clearer:

      So yes, I agree that more people working on this has always been needed. What was wrong with just having a team of 10 people tackle 100 images each a week. That's a 1000 images a week and 52,000 images a year. Scale up as needed. Should have had a system like that operating years ago, rather than using bots. Carcharoth (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

      So I assume you are up for the tedious task? AzaToth 21:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
      Yes, I am. If you review my recent contributions, I think you will see that I do a fair amount of work on images. I would be happy to be part of a team handling the work BetacommandBot does now. Of course, with only three months or so to go, this sort of proposal is a bit late in the day. but still, I intend to be doing my bit in the run-up to March 2008, identifying and rescuing historical images. Carcharoth (talk) 21:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
      Current BCBot practices were influenced in part by the inability to scale admin activity to properly deal with the problem image load. If we were to implement a more careful and scheduled approach, this could be corrected. That, and I can't think of many admin tasks which aren't tedious :) ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
      It's not going to happen. The only reason the backlogs are manageable now is because several admins secretively run powerful adminbots to delete images - at my count, Misza13's one nuked around 60,000 orphans and unsourced images this past week alone. east.718 at 21:32, December 24, 2007
      These adminbots delete the good images with the bad. Further, deleting fair use images does not guarantee future compliance, e.g., deleting an album cover because of an incomplete rationale will not stop other editors from re-uploading the same cover under a similarly flawed rationale. The backlogs are only a concern as far as scheduling goes, as long as the problem images are identified, admins are made aware of the total workload. The difference between cleaning out a backlog in one week or two is of negligible impact to the project. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

      BetacommandBot Section Break[edit]

      As everyone knows, handling non-free content and the abuse related to it wears down on anyone, Ive been talking to Several users, Kmccoy, and FT2 most notability. I have a multi-phase, multi-part plan for the future. One major part of that is giving the NFCC tagging task to a separate bot account and stepping back from direct NFCC interaction. I am working on getting a team of users who are willing and able to field all those questions. I hope that I will be able to reduce my role to merely a code writer and bot host service. (back end service) I was hoping to wait until I had most of the details worked out and that I was able to announce that it was just going live. As for concerns that I dont care about "the article writers" is bullshit. I personally dont write articles for several reasons. due to real life concerns what ever I write about would give my real life identity away. that said I have written and or improved some articles using alternate accounts that cannot be traced back to my main account. (which is allowed under policy) I value all of our editors, everyone from the random longterm good-standing IP contributers to article writers, to vandal fighters, to our FA writers, to the stub writer, to the wikinome, to the non-free uploader (those who follow policy and dont abuse NFC), to those editors who create, upload and use free content. As for the messages that the bot leaves I have always asked for suggestions and improvements . (at one point I posted here on AN looking for suggestions). I am sorry that I am un-civil at times but the long term abuse (all the "fuck you" and "your a Nazi" and other similar abuse) and constant threats tend to wear down a person. βcommand 01:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
      Betacommand, if you want you can direct all inquiries about the bot, or its activities, to another editor. It might be a good idea to put a line of defense between the people who run the both, and the public — that way, a front-end "staff" can filter the good complaints and suggestions from the dross. They will get burned out less quickly, since there would be more of them and they would be "fresh", while you can focus on actually running the bot. I know that I would volunteer. --Haemo (talk) 03:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
      that is my goal, to have a group of editors field those questions, and phase out my direct interaction. any other volunteers are welcome, and Ill give a heads up when I make the switchover to the new account, and start the implementation of my future plans. βcommand 03:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

      Shut down BetacommandBot[edit]

      BetacommandBot was blocked many times because of bugs. The way it works also bites many newcomers and drives away article writers. For example, it does not explain clearly why it tags an image and how to provide a proper fair use rationale. Also, Betacommand is an irresponsible bot owner and he was desysopped by ArbCom because of that. Please shut down BetacommandBot. If not, at least file an RFC against it to decide what to do with it. We cannot ignore the problems with the bot. --Kaypoh (talk) 03:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

      The bot runs at a remarkably low error rate, and the one time it really went off the rails and caused serious damage, it was because the Wikipedia API malfunctioned and caused all bots that rely on it to break. To address the second issue gentler templates can be used, such as the ones Carnildo currently employs. Also, just becase Betacommand went Sideways with adminbots once doesn't mean that he's an irresponsible bot operator. I'm sure with BC pledging to take more of a backseat role, these concerns will be addressed in the coming weeks. east.718 at 04:30, December 25, 2007
      Doesn't the bot violate WP:POINT, though? For example, the bot tagged some images of mine because they did not include a man-made link to the page in which they were used, even though such links are created automatically on each page. I understand that someone put that detail into the image fair-use policy page, but is it worth deleting an image over details such as these? Let's not discuss that one loophole, because Betacommand can figure out as many such loopholes as he wants. And it is a loophole, rather than a valid rationale for deleting an image. When I removed the tags the bot was putting on the pages, Betacommand reverted me and called my edits vandalism. He did not tell me why the bot was putting the tags on the pages. If he really cared about the policy loophole, he would have made the image compliant himself. But he didn't, which is a pretty clear indication that he was looking for an excuse to get the image deleted, because he dislikes Fair Use.--Gnfgb2 (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      It is a requirement to have the article explicitly named in the rationale, and for good reason. The automagically generated Mediawiki link changes as the image is put in and out of articles, regardless of whether the image is valid for use in those articles or not. I agree that fixing is a better approach than deleting in such cases, but there is currently no obligation for anyone to carry out such repairs. Theoretically admins should do that instead of deletion, but that doesn't always work in practice. Carcharoth (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      "The bot runs at a remarkably low error rate." Nonsense. Look at the block log. I agree that "gentler templates can be used". Another problem is that there are like 100 rules about fair use and there is no page which explains all the rules. You don't expect everyone who uploads an image to know all the 100 rules. If someone follows 99 rules but forgets 1, the bot will still tag the image. A bot is not a good way to check for image problems. I still think that if you don't want to shut down the bot, an RFC is the best way to think how to fix all the problems. --Kaypoh (talk) 04:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      I agree with the original suggestion in this sub-section completely. i've had my own problems with this bot, and it seems somewhat excessive and problematic. thanks.--Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      The real problem[edit]

      The real problem is not the bot; it has a very low error rate and is doing a necessary task. The problem is how complaints/concerns/questions are handled. Most go to Betacommand's talk page where they receive a response that is often not very helpful as it uses the same jargon as the tags and may be uncivil. Or they go to ANI, the bot gets blocked, and drama ensues. I would suggest that we create a fair use help desk with a FAQ in language that will be clear to new users where people can go to ask for help and assistance and it can be staffed by more than 1 person. Mr.Z-man 21:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

      And I am willing to help with the creation of such a board. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      And so am I. And I also wish to note that images are being deleted per board resolution, but there is no problem with helping fix them. --Maxim(talk) 14:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      I think a fair use help desk is a good idea, and would be willing to help. Should it be a sub-page of the main help desk? Addhoc (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      We need to do something. The more general problem is that we have multiple bots which don't fix problems, they generate to-do lists for humans. We need to have requirements for bot smartness - any bot which demands unnecessary work from humans more than 1-2% of the time needs to be shut down.
      There's also a policy problem in image space. The general policy in Wikipedia is that once you've made an edit, you have no further responsibility for maintenance of that page. But in image space, Wikipedia takes the position that the original uploader has responsibilities that continue long after the upload. It's the reverse of WP:OWN - you upload it, you're responsible for it. This needs to be addressed. Maybe we need a time limit - once an image has been up for 30 days without objection, it's no longer the uploader's responsibility to correct licensing problems associated with it. --John Nagle (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      Nagle, the problem users were having earlier is not enough notification. We have increased the notification procedures, but we do notice that many users who were contacted about image problems are not longer editing on Wikipedia. With images, the only reason why we say it is your responsibility is that it was up to the uploader to say that all sourcing and licensing information is correct. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      I agree with John. In the United States, we call new laws that apply to actions already committed ex post facto and have banned them in our constitution. This bot is tagging images for some pretty trivial reasons, loopholes in the policy really. Those things change all of the time.--Gnfgb2 (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      Mr Z-man has put his finger exactly on the problem: it's not the Bot, but the operator. I have little sympathy for people who abuse the concept of Fair Use, but I have far less for BetaCommand. From the first moment I encountered him, about a year ago (on an entirely unrelated matter), he has been brusque, condescending, & relies on obscenities to make his point -- which is why he lost his Admin bit. Contributors in good faith who find their contributions chewed up & mangled because of nit-picking mistakes in their Fair Use rationale end getting chewed up & mangled when they complain about the rought justice they've received -- unless they happen to be lucky enough to attract the attention of a level-headed Admin. His actions & language show that he thinks he is doing God's work in running his bot, & is not answerable to anyone except the Foundation.
      If people believe this bot is doing useful work, its operation & responsibility ought to be taken away from BetaCommand & given to someone who can be far more civil -- which, IMHO, would be practically anyone else. I believe the best step now would be to move this discussion from this page & open an RfC to determine whether this -- or any -- solution has a consensus, but after reading the steps on WP:RfC, it appears that using that mechanism for this purpose would only lead to useless wikilawyering -- & returning this chronic problem to the pages of WP:AN or WP:AN/I. -- llywrch (talk) 20:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      How is finding loopholes in policy and using them as excuses to delete images useful? Is the issue of manually versus automatically linking an image to the article it's used in pivotal enough to warrant deletion? Is it important enough to warrant widespread disruption?--Gnfgb2 (talk) 22:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      The policy is, in its simplest form, that non-free images should be used as little as possible. The disagreement between the various schools of opinion is what "as little as possible" means. One party believes that this means almost none -- if that many. The other party (to which, I admit I am a member) believes this means that if it would be unreasonable or unexpected for an article not to have an image, & it is difficult to impossible to obtain a free one, then a non-free one may be used under the rules of Fair Use. I agree with you that there should be a non-disruptive path to resolving this disagreement. However, I think assuming good faith in the members of the other faction would get us there much more quickly, which means both that we try to use temperate language -- as well as finding someone with better interpersonal skills than BetaCommand has demonstrated. -- llywrch (talk) 18:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      The reasoning for not relying on the automatically generated Wikilink - it changes - was explained to you above by Carcharoth. Betacommand has stated (again, above) that he is working on passing the user interaction aspect of bot operation off to other users. If you have an issue with the fair use policy (i.e. loopholes, complexity, etc.) address it at the fair use policy talk page. Avruchtalk 18:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

      1000 active admins[edit]

      As of today, we have 1000 active admins (more than 30 edits in the last three months). The first round's on me. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      I'm afraid I can't agree that this is cause for celebration. Jtrainor (talk) 19:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      Agreed. This is more likely a cause for the gnashing of teeth and the donning of sackcloth. But I will take Rick up on the offer of a Guinness. All the better to drown our collective sorrows at this "achievement". Alansohn (talk) 19:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      Oh come on, why the pesimism? at least now we can say that we have a average of 1000 admins per 1,000,000 vandals that has to be a improvement. - Caribbean~H.Q. 19:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      Many hands make light work of image backlogs. Sean William @ 19:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      We hit 1000 active admins on December 15th, but then we took a dip back down until today, perhaps because some were busy due to the holidays. But now we have our free time back again - a boon to Wikipedia :-) NoSeptember 19:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      I suppose it depends on your definition of "active". User:BetacommandBot/Admin edits is quite a good page for this sort of stuff. If you define "active" as "has made an edit in the last week" there are still 968 active admins though. Hut 8.5 20:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      I define "active" as "has made an edit in the last 5 hours". How many is that? :P EVula // talk // // 20:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      How about the last day? (User:BetacommandBot/Admin_edits#Last_24_hours) — xaosflux Talk 03:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      • I consider myself a reactive admin anyway, and its the proactive admins that I worry about... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

      To expand my views from the above statement a bit, I have felt for some time that it is far too easy to become an admin and too hard to remove problematic ones. Thus, a 1000th admin is not a cause for celebration to me. Jtrainor (talk) 23:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

      I myself am planning to celebrate with a vandalism spree. Whee! -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 04:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      The temptation to block you for 1 second was almost overwhelming - but blocks are preventative and I couldn't be certain which second would stop the spree... oh, too late anyway! LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Stupid New Admin question[edit]

      (Or, possibly stupid question from new admin ;-) ) So, when I delete a category page for a now-empty prod category page (I cleared out the last of the prods), do I also delete the talk page? The only note on the talk page is that all articles were checked to see if they met prod criteria. Thanks. - Kathryn NicDhàna 03:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      It depends, if the category was renamed or merged into another I would suggest turning the talk page into a sub-page of the current title's talk page or a separate archive. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      I think Kathryn is referring to categories like Category_talk:Proposed_deletion_as_of_23_December_2007. Those can and should be deleted when the corresponding category is emptied. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Yes, that's what I meant! Thanks! The page listing the prodded articles, not a category that was prodded. :-) Right now the text on the prod category pages reads: "Once this category is at least 5 days old and it no longer contains any articles it should be speedily deleted." I think we should change the text to add, "Also delete the corresponding talk page." Do you know how we do that? (I'll go delete the talk page, if no one else has.) - Kathryn NicDhàna 04:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      It is assumed that the talk page would also be deleted per CSD G8. —Kurykh 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      OK. I thought so, but I've also seen some cases where talk pages were left, and I wasn't sure which ones are the exceptions to the rule. Actually, are there exceptions when the talk page of a deleted article or category should be left standing? Or have I just been seeing mistakes? - Kathryn NicDhàna 04:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Generally, the only exception of CSD G8 I can think of is user talk pages of established editors who are blocked or banned indefinitely. —Kurykh 04:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Deletion discussions that aren't located anywhere else should also not be deleted (although we had a purge of those recently). east.718 at 04:31, December 28, 2007

      There are no dumb new admin questions. :) If you have any questions, I am always available. I've been an admin for almost 2 1/2 years. I sometimes know my stuff. :) --WoohookittyWoohoo! 10:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Missing log[edit]

      Resolved: Spebi 09:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Hi, I don't know where to put this, but here [5] is missing entire day (27 December) - [6]. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Fixed now. Today's log is always transcluded due to some of the #time: functions on the page, but since the following days need to be updated manually, it displayed December 28, 26, and so on, but not 27. I have a solution to prevent this from happening in the future, though. Spebi 09:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


      Could someone please bring back the old comments from User talk: We need evidence of what this IP address has done in the past. I myself did something like this several times, but it was reverted without a good reason. (talk) 10:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      If you want to know what the IP address has done in the past, click on it (i.e. the contributions). That particular IP made edits in 2006, disappeared for a year, made a dozen edits recently, and is now blocked for a good long while. You should also maybe explain why you need to know what this IP has been doing. Shalom (HelloPeace) 10:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Issue with user Blowdart[edit]

      I created a wiki for XCritic and user Blowdart is very quick to add the speedy delete note. If you look at his talk page there are a number of people who have had issues with the his speedy delete requests [7]. He then went to my bio and marked that all up. I think there has to be some level of tolerance for newbies and rather than having the door slammed in their face, have constructive notes given on how to improve or modify a wikki. I'm quite concerned this conflict is now between editors and not about content —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gkleinman (talkcontribs) 11:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      • Well, the article doesn't look like a CSD, but it's certainly AfD material. As for his edits to your self-aggrandizing biography, well, they weren't strong enough. I've just been in and deleted 80% of the article, as Wikipedia is not an advertising service. I'll take the CSD off the XCritic article and send it to AfD for discussion. ➔ REDVEЯS says: at the third stroke the time will be 12:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Wow, talk about harsh. Is there any room here for welcoming and working with newbies?! How about comments to HELP with entries rather than chop and ship to deletion? And the cuts to my bio were way to severe. You cut out all the history of where i've been and what i've done. Wow. it really smarts having this kind of smacking rather than helping. Gkleinman (talk) 12:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      • Yes, I've seen that every time someone disputes your editing in any way you wave WP:BITE at them. But that policy is not a licence to use a non-profit encyclopedia funded by donations in order to self-aggrandize and promote your business interests. You can comment on the AfD of your article here. ➔ REDVEЯS says: at the third stroke the time will be 12:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      OK I've commented there. My intent isn't to self-aggrandize but to put information that's relevant in the Pedia. But please do take the point, that there's a way to do this with newbies where it's more collaborative and directing towards making good articles rather than being rather stern. Again I'm learning and working to make the articles I submit in spec. Thanks for your understanding Gkleinman (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Is there any relevant information you'd like to add to the encyclopedia that isn't about yourself and your own business? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      It would be curlish to point out I didn't actually touch his autobiography aside from marking it with COI and Autobiography, hardly marking it all up. Nor should a user who's first edit was on 17 December 2005, and who hides behind an IP to attempt to bypass COI being claiming newbie status. But, meh. --Blowdart | talk 12:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      FisherQueen - yes. After getting past this mess I was going to create a page for Stoya who is an adult performer and doesn't even have an article in the pedia about here. I'm also planning on adding info on Sundance Fest which I'm attending and Adult Expo. I don't recall when I registered, but I am a newbie and still learning about creating articles. So I don't want to wave be nice to the newbie again. But please be patient. I'm learning. So here's what I ask... Constructive feedback on how to improve things, and I'm going to work with that. 12:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gkleinman (talkcontribs)

      I have updated both entries based on feedback, please revisit and re-evaluate them. Thanks Gkleinman (talk) 13:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      beyond this article and this editor editor, there have been over the last day or two an unusually high number of unfinished articles nominated for AfD with a hour or two after creation. Sometimes they are just lacking sources--sometimes they are clearly in the process of being written. There is no requirement that an article be written in one go, and we should tag such unfinished articles if they have any possibilities, not delete them immediately. I can't account for the sudden decrease in tolerance, except possible as a byproduct of coming down after the holidays. I suppose we should be aware of the possibility of this increasing further with people recovering after New Year's Day. DGG (talk) 16:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes_and_characters[edit]

      The above Arbitration case has closed, and the final decision can be viewed at the link above. The parties are urged to work collaboratively and constructively with the broader community and the editors committed to working on the articles in question to develop and implement a generally acceptable approach to resolving the underlying content dispute.

      For the Arbitration Committee,
      RlevseTalk 14:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      I am sorry to admit it but this has been done before and it didn't work, both parts are to strongly attached to their points of views, I'm under the impression that this case will repeat itself down the road. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      well, there will be additional arbitrators available. The alternative is that the broader community does tackle the problem where it has its root, which is the inflexible wording at WP:NOT. Personally, I would downgrade almost the entire page into guideline status. DGG (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      It is effectively already a guideline, given the hundreds of thousands of articles we have that violate it. BLACKKITE 17:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      That's it? That's the decision? I don't follow ArbCon cases too much, but telling the editors to "work collaboratively and constructively with the broader community" seems ridiculous to me. The case made its way to ArbCom because the editors were unable to do exactly that. Wow. I expected a more defined response. But again, I don't typically follow ArbCom rulings so maybe this is the norm.↔NMajdantalk 16:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      It sounds very much like a "No Consensus", which I suppose it is as far as wrongdoing and shenanigans go on the part of the parties involved. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Seems from the actual page that there was consensus that there was bad behavior going on, but the failure of arbcom to rule on it is troubling. I support the suggestion that WP:NOT gets downgraded. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 17:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Dealing with fake-IP vandal[edit]

      Um, I know this page is for coordinating and discussing administrative tasks on the English Wikipedia, but an administrator from the Vietnamese Wikipedia is asking at Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance)#Dealing with fake-IP vandal for advice. His particular problem is vandalism by someone in Vietnam using fake-IPs, who keeps replacing acticles' content with insulting words. We've been dealing with this vandal by locking IPs, but I found that locking fake-IPs is quite useless since the vandal uses a different one for each series of attacks.
      So, I was wondering, what is the experience of the English Wikipedia, and how has it dealt with such issues? It's probably best to respond at the village pump. Puchiko (Talk-email) 14:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      If they work under the same range and the vandalism is overwealming the administrators perhaps a range block can help. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Speedy delete process?[edit]

      Yesterday, I tagged Webling Elementary for AFD, since it's plainly not notable. In the discussion, the creator left the following comment: "I created this article before I read WP:NOTABLITY, so please delete and speedy close, thanks". As a new administrator, I'm not sure of the procedure: should I just delete it and close it, as it's author-requested? Or must we wait for a few days until the discussion time is over, since two other editors have edited the article? Nyttend (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      Neither editor made any significant contribution to the article so I would say you would be fine to speedy delete as an only substantial author request. Davewild (talk) 15:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      WP:CSD#G7 would be a good deletion note. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Agreed. DGG (talk) 15:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


      Hello all, I was just wondering what you thought of things like this and this? I know we've had people's personal shops before, but not multiple people like this. Seems like instruction creep to me...just wondering what people think. Regards, Keilana 01:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

      what is the point? ViridaeTalk 01:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      (ec) Unless I'm missing something, this is just a witty approach for offering to help others. Strikes me as good natured and constructive, and goodness knows we could use more of both qualities around here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      It may be helping users, but I think the dollar stores are coming to Wikipedia. I've "purchased" items from one of them before, and, to clarify things, I AM NOT AN EMPLOYEE AT CHAMPION MART!!! —BoL @ 04:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      *sigh*. Daniel 07:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      It's not really doing much at all, in fact, it's doing harm to those who receive Christmas cards that are "bought" from these shops and displayed in dark green on bright red. Even though they claim to be helping users by making them feel cheerful and happy about contributing, but in my opinion, they appear to make the whole place look like a social networking site and end up getting people blocked for social networking. My two cents, anyway. Spebi 21:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      But looking at the positive side of these shops, you don't really have to buy anything, just copy the code from the source and the owner's can't come to your talk page complaining of "card theft". Spebi 21:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      Only complaining of a GFDL violation. -- SEWilco (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      I think what's best is if we drop the subject, then bring it back up if Gp and Vintei start warring about it. —BoL @ 23:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      Ridiculous. This is a valid discussion topic, especially considering the fact that some users are now talking of "friend requests" – [8], [9]. Spebi 04:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
      Just to clarify things, shops were created to help users, not to build an emporium of shops. Also, User:Gp75motorsports has a note that the goal of ChampionMart is "to become the largest multi-use shop in Wikipedia", and Wikipedia is not a web host, nor a shopping mall. Macy's123 01:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      Hmm, the "shops" are really intended to help users, mostly newcomers (I have a shop myself). And the workers are volunteers, not conscripts.-- Vintei  Talk  01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

      (undent)Yeah, so do I. I think Vintei and I are speaking for all shop owners (there may be more) when we say that the shops are easier to use for newcomers because all they have to do is copypaste the source code. I'd rather copypaste a premade design or request a design from a more experienced user than have to continually reference the userpage design center if I wanted a unique userpage. --Gp75motorsports REV LIMITER 02:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC) :Look, just drop it for now. If you two start flaming about it, it will be dealt with. —BoL @ 02:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC) You know what? Scratch that. I have nominated both their shops for deletion. Looks like they're going too out of the edge, I mean, Gp75 copied the src from Vintei, so I'm doing it. —BoL @ 02:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Wait, scratch that. I'll file a request for comment.BoL @ 02:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

      Remind me again why having "a unique userpage" is essential to building an encyclopedia? Shouldn't we be helping newcomers learn how to improve articles and not how to have gaudy userboxes, signatures, and user pages? Metros (talk) 02:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      No reason. —BoL @ 02:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      I hate people who judge before they see. We also do templates and userscripts. And BoL here is only saying this because he works for Vintei. --Gp75motorsports REV LIMITER 02:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      "Because he works for Vintei" — on so many levels, I hope you were joking. Daniel 04:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      Actually, I don't really work for anyone, really. I mean, checkout? You got to be kidding me. So, I'm just going to kick back and relax and see how this goes. I may merge your stores into one and have you guys work together. Seems cherry? I didn't think so. Anyway, I'm not sure whether this is the right place to report it, but UAA is backlogged. —BoL @ 05:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      We already have places, in projectspace, for requesting templates and user scripts. Mr.Z-man 00:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

      Shops nominated for deletion[edit]

      I have nominated both shops for deletion. You can see them at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Vintei/shop and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Gp75motorsports/ChampionMart. Metros (talk) 03:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

      (this is a copy of my comment from here) I say that we should be able to keep shops in some way or form, whether it be a wikiproject or hosted on someone's userpage. I don't know why there are so many delete votes when something like this passes. I mean look at their keep rationale, all of their rational apply to shops as well, if not more. If you think shops are a waste of disk space, what do you have to say to the huge lists of userboxes we have up? Although shops will probably be deleted anyways, I would like permission to have a wikiproject or a WP: page, where there is no competition. Thanks -- penubag  23:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
      I agree with Penubag. I'm even willing to create an alternate account solely focused on shops. —BoL @ 04:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
      An alternate account? How in the world would that alleviate the problem? Metros (talk) 14:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
      Problem?, I don't see one....-- penubag  23:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

      *yawn*. There's something strange going on here, as the relationship between the accounts don't appear to be a coincidence. MER-C 13:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

      I mean an alternate account that's not used for editing and is solely used for shops. But, I don't think that's needed because if the shops are deleted, there's a Wiki that just started in Wikia. Just can't remember what the title of that Wiki was... Happy Holidays fromBoL 00:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Question- So if I offer helping people make sigs, that's not allowed? or does it have to be a subpage dedicated to that before it gets deleted? I have a userpage2 just with ASCII art and facts and if I offered to design ASCII art for a user, should it be deleted? How far does it go before it get's deleted? I can list 10 users that have sig shops and others, but I don't see theirs deleted. -- penubag  03:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
      • I nominated the {{user friends with} template for deletion as well [here]. Avruchtalk 03:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      I guess this thread could be resolved, all shops have been deleted. Not only that, I think the shops should be restored for two minutes so I can retrieve the source code and transwiki over to wikia:codesnippets. BoL 06:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


      Sorry, i haven't seen any existing shops which you all are talking about. And the examples cited at the top of this section have now been deleted. could anyone please point me to some examples of these? thanks very much. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Never mind, that got deleted. But you can kinda view an example here. BoL 00:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

      Claim of abuse of administrator privileges[edit]

      Section title refactored to a less strident form, as the claim was considered unfounded. The original claim is preserved below. Carcharoth (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

      The account was blocked for a myriad of reasons, and most can agree on "username violation." Arguing about hypothetical alternative reasons for blocking is less than productive for an encyclopedia. —Kurykh 01:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

      For the record the account referred to by Kurykh was User:No i wont talk with u, not User:DGG--CastAStone//(talk) 14:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      I've just seen this--nobody mentioned to me that I was being discussed here. I have indeed removed obvious spam links a number of times from this article over several months; there appears to be a need to pay considerable attention to this one, and others on the general subject. People keep inserting links to their favorite projects. I see the article has just come under attack again, by User:Certified planner, whose contributions are limited to adding duplicate links to this article; there were earlier editors named User:Urbancity and User:Nighttemper doing just the same. DGG (talk) 16:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      you should have been notified, especialy due to the absurdity of the claims made. You were in the right nuff said.--Hu12 (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
      Agreed. Apologies on my part as well for taking part in this thread and not notifying DGG. Following talk page discussion, I agree that it would be best to change the title. I'll do that now, and then we can let this thread archive in peace. Carcharoth (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)