Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive153

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Vandalism by classmates with my first and last name[edit]

Just about every day, I revert vandalism on Wikipedia in my school library. Now, unfortunately, two of my classmates have seen me doing it, and have started vandalizing Wikipedia.

The problem is, they keep putting my first and last name in articles (see 1 2 3 for ones I definitely know about).

What I know is that they create accounts through the IP User_talk:208.108.145.4 and then vandalize Wikipedia with them, sometimes putting my name in articles.

I dont want to violate WP:LEGAL here (just trying to keep myself from getting banned), but could someone please delete those revisions and possibly block the IP for one month with account creation disabled to get them bored with vandalism?

I appreciate any help here. Thanks! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 03:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If you go to WP:RFO, you can request an oversight to permanently remove the edits. As for the user being dealt with, I (not an admin) don't know how Wikipedia would deal with a school IP inserting personal information. // I c e d K o l a (Contribs) 03:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Technically, its not the school IP, its accounts made by the IP. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 03:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You really ought to be taking this to your school authorities too. Hesperian 03:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
If I do so, they'll block the site, perhaps permanently. I dont want that to happen! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I have prevented account creation for your school's IP address and extended the block (which was going to expire on December 9) until December 23. -- tariqabjotu 04:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, its started up again through User:Onikudaki and User:LucyJenkin2. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 13:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
HELP! My talk page is being vandalized by them. I've requested semi-protection, but HELP NEEDED NOW!!!! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 13:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Done. Fut.Perf. 14:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Also, User:208.108.145.3 (and possibly User:208.108.145.11 could be used) are also being used to create those accounts. Theres a current block on there that expires on December 13th, but account creation wasn't disabled. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Not to be pushy, but is anything going to happen to User:208.108.145.3? If its blocked, I'm betting all my troubles with the vandals will end. Originally posted by 24.50.211.226 02:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC), who was Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 02:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC) logged out.
Both the school IPs are blocked, and I thank whoever blocked them. However, the two vandals continue to overload my userpages with hundreds of barnstars, and are creating accounts outside of school now. All I can think of is doing total protection of my userpages until they get bored with this (which I want to save as a last resort). I'd like peoples opinions on what they think I should do. I dont want to report this to the school authorities, because it may get Wikipedia blocked at my school. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 02:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the (recent) vandalism to your user pages of which you speak. -- tariqabjotu 02:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
See here, here, here, and here for examples. Note that this will slow your computer down, as the vandals loaded at least 100 barnstars on those revisions. One of those is from just yesterday (I believe the first one), and the rest are older than that. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

mormon[edit]

I've been trying to contribute to the mormon article but I'm having to fight off the vandalism. Is this article worthy of semi-protection? If so, please help.

Kothar 06:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, semi-protected. Hope it helps -- Samir धर्म 07:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Much appreciated. Kothar 14:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


Legal threats[edit]

At 3:54 this morning, HighInBC gave a final warning to that blogger to stop making legal threats. A few hours later, the user made another threat on this page. Since it looks like HighInBC has gone to the land of nod, would someone care to block the account in question? Thanks. yandman 09:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the comments, getting these shananigans over with. -Patstuarttalk|edits 09:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Claiming that something is libel or is libelous does not constitute a legal threat. While I can't say this user is polite, according to WP:NLT, Making a polite, coherent complaint in cases of copyright infringement or attacks against you is not a "legal threat" [...]Similarly, slander, libel, and defamation of character are not tolerated on Wikipedia. It is imperative that someone check to see that this user has not been warned unnecessarily. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The warning was for "through a piece-of-cake lawsuit". After this warning he said "The next request will be from someone else", which IMHO is rather explicit. yandman 09:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, you linked to comments that aren't legal threats, per my aforementioned explaination, and then you called for a block. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 10:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Patstuart, I appreciate what you did. If that had been done a day ago when I originally pointed it out to Admins, I would never have had to contact an attorney and then followed her advice of notifying timecop that we were prepared to respond in a legal manner to his illegal behavior. My hope is that this will be the last note that I will be forced to leave on any page in Wikipedia. The debate of my entry was interesting, being libeled against was truly distressing. I hope that Wikipedia spends just as much energy taking care of users who actually break the law as they do upon new users/visitors who follow the instructions of their attorney during a very serious matter. TP 70.219.47.146 09:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"A very serious matter"? Some troll making fun of an unknown blogger? yandman 10:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the legal action would have been against the one who posted the allegedly false resume on the internet, since all Timecop did was report what he had read. yandman 10:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The resume is posted on tony's personal site, d'oh. Originally the link came from archive.org, but it has always been on his site. --timecop 10:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't help but agree. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 10:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Since when did we concern ourselves with people's internet fame? Even Tony's "thank you" reads like a legal threat. I'm tempted to restore Timecop's comments, simply because of how absurd this complaint is. (of course I would not actually do that.. I'm just saying..) Potential employers looking at a Wikipedia AfD... give me a break. -- Ned Scott 10:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
People say stupid things and act irrationally when they get upset. Tony is upset that his article is going, and at that from someone who's a self-admitted troll who's goal is the "war on blogs". This statement isn't, BTW, a backhanded attack on timecop; it's an explanation of Tony. Personally, while he's been a little silly about the resume, I understand why he's upset (even if he might not deserve an article). Patstuarttalk|edits 15:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Chadbryant[edit]

Following his latest 3RR violation, I have extend Chadbryant's block to indefinite. This was his 12th block for 3RR, not counting extensions for sockpuppetry (and two for incivility) [1]. Almost all of his recent edits (I'm speaking literally here, have a look at [2]) are edit warring, reverts and other disruptive edits. He has had ample warnings over many months, and shown no sign of stopping despite many, many blocks. It seems that he's simply a disruptive user carrying on this external conflict from some other internet forum to Wikipedia, and he should not be welcome here. I think he should be considered banned by the community for exhausting our patience. This action is up for review. Dmcdevit·t 11:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Endorse block. Another good catch by Dmc. --Srikeit 11:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

If banning is endorsed, the following may require deletion: Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of DXRAW, User:Chadbryant/monobook.js, User:Chadbryant/standard.js, User talk:Chadbryant/Linden Arden, User talk:Chadbryant/Dick Witham and User talk:Chadbryant/Sandbox. MER-C 12:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.CraigMonroe 14:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

reversion of warnings[edit]

sometime recently MacRusgail (talk · contribs) deleted [3] these warnings about incivility [4] [5] i'd put there for [6] & [7] respectively. i believe these are supposed to be either left there or be archived? wasn't quite sure where to report, wld apreciate clarification if this is wrong place thx   bsnowball  13:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is at the editor's discretion whether to keep, remove, or archive these. Wikipedia:Removing warnings is inactive at this time. El_C 13:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Firemaker117[edit]

I found Firemaker117 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) today after an edit to Train. The userpage says that he's doing unproductive edits as an "experiment". Block candidate? Slambo (Speak) 13:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yup. --InShaneee 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Complaint against admin[edit]

I would like to see the removal of User:osgoodelawyer as an admin. He has attacked me and another user in bad faith and generally violated every requirement of WP:EQ. How can I start a procedure against him? Mikebe 15:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide some diffs to back up your statement? That would definately help. Also, have you tried working it out with the user in question on their talk page? - CHAIRBOY () 15:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your reply. At this point, there is nothing to work out. This admin has attacked me and another user first for being sockpuppets and then for being anti-American. He did this with no basis for either charge. He has admitted wrong-doing for the sockpuppet charge, and I am waiting for his reaction on the anti-American charge. It is precisely because of his actions that he does not deserve to be an admin. You can see all of this by starting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JoshuaZ#Patto1ro and then reading the three subjects following. Mikebe 15:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
At any point has he used his or her administrative privileges against you? Ie, blocks, page protects, etc? - CHAIRBOY () 15:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry one of my edits was lost. He has not used it, but has threatened to: "You are undoubtedly the same person as User:Mikebe. Since you have voted in AfDs with both accounts, you are violating WP:SOCK. I will kindly ask you to choose one account to edit with. Further use of both accounts may result in me having to take administrative action against you. And we don't want that. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 20:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)" Mikebe 15:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


If you think an admin is acting improperly, but has not used admin powers to do so, then act as though it was a regular editor. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What about threats (see above)? Can a regular editor do that? Mikebe 15:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
In most cases, we treat behaviour as a user and behaviour as an admin separately. I don't see any evidence that User:Osgoodelawyer has made any use of his admin tools in any disagreement with either you or User:Patto1ro, who appears to be the other user you mention. It is very unlikely indeed that an admin would lose admin privileges without abusing them, unless their behaviour as a user is bad enough to earn them a ban from the site.
As to conduct as a user, from what I've seen, there has been an element of poor behaviour from all sides including your own. Osgoodelawyer should not have accused you and Patto1ro of sockpuppetry without more convincing proof than I've seen; I personally strongly doubt you two are the same person. I would caution Osgoodelawyer against making sockpuppetry allegations so freely in future.
You have also been uncivil. You have nominated articles for deletion based solely on disliking their current content, without regard for deletion guidelines. You have aggressively put forth the notion that an American editor should not be editing articles on European beers and that your opinions should automatically carry more weight since you are European. Rather than attempting to resolve differences with other editors, you have inflamed them.
I would suggest that if you feel your disagreement with Osgoodelawyer is insoluble between the two of you, you ask for mediation. Be aware that a willingness to compromise and assume good faith in others is essential to successful contribution to Wikipedia. Beware of asking for further steps in dispute resolution, because in such steps, the conduct of all parties will be examined, including your own. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 15:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Bravo, Morven. Very good characterization of the situation. Patstuarttalk|edits 15:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I will make no claim to being perfect, but I can assure you that the articles I nominated for deletion were based on Wikipedia rules and not on my personal tastes -- I didn't even know that was possible! I have only been here for a few months and I'm still learning my way around. What I am trying to do is clearly not popular, but I have not threatened anyone nor have I ever acted in bad faith. Mikebe 16:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Please try to assume that everyone concerned is trying to improve the project. It's clear to me that both yourself and Osgoodelawyer are trying to improve the beer articles - can you see that? I hope so. You are just disagreeing as to what best to do to improve them.
Thus, try and find compromise positions, and respect Neutral point of view. You assert that Belgian Strong Dark Ale is not a classification in use in Belgium, nor does it correspond to any Belgian classification. If that's correct, it certainly should be noted. However, if anyone else in the world DOES use it as a classification - and it appears that at least one brewing organisation in the US does - then what purpose is served by deleting it? Better that the article exist - since it is a term in use - but explicitly state who uses the classification and who does not. Belgian classification of their own beers is certainly very important, and it makes a lot of sense for the Belgian descriptions to be paramount, but this does not mean that nobody else in the world is entitled to describe and classify Belgian or Belgian-style beers.
Please consider this and try and reach compromise decisions based on respect for the facts and on existing points of view, and try and characterize them fairly. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 16:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the Belgian Strong Dark Ale could be treated like German Chocolate Cake, namely explaining that it is not common in the country which bears the same name, but rather in __insert_region_here__, and explain the purpose of its naming. I would have to agree that it's inappropriate to delete that article simply because it isn't used in the country it purports to be from. The same would apply for French Fries. On a different topic, I think it's very poor form to accuse someone of being "anti-American", as such a position in and of itself is not wholy inappropriate, or wrong. Yes, they should treat things neutrally in the articles, but using an anti-American bias as a position for editing articles is not inappropriate, and is not wrong. --Puellanivis 16:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
A good suggestion. And yes - while accusations of being anti-American may well be correct, in my experience they are rarely helpful and serve only to inflame the situation (as do most accusations of being anti-whatever). They should be thus avoided. I have not examined all the contributions of the users involved in this dispute to see who (if anyone) made any such allegations, but it's not in the best interests of the project to do so. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 16:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • First thank you for all the helpful information that was posted here. There seems to be a misunderstanding about Belgian Strong Dark Ale: it is solely a classification for home-brewing competitions. That is, amateur brewers attempt to brew a certain recipe and then are marked on how close they come. This has nothing to do with commercial products. I know that it lists two commercial beers, but, if I call your child "Beatrix" does that change your child's name?
  • And for what it is worth: Osgoodelawyer has now apologised for calling our work "blatantly anti-American".

Mikebe 16:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and thank you for pointing out German chocolate cake and educating me on something today - I never knew the provenance of that recipe before. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 16:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I apologized to Mikebe, he accepted it, and then his very next edit was to immediately file this complaint asking for my admin privileges to be revoked. That's not really what I'd consider an acceptance. I have apologized for accusing Patto1ro of sockpuppetry without enough evidence to go to a checkuser, although at the time the resemblance between the two users in question and the circumstantial evidence was pointing towards it. Clearly it was imprudent, and I have obviously learned from it. I have also since (prior to noticing this complaint), retracted my accusation of "Anti-Americanism" (albeit someone facetiously). I should note, though, that never did I complain that "Anti-Americanism" was grounds for action (nor do I think I even really accused Mikebe of being "an Anti-American"). In fact, the term "Anti-American" was simply being used to characterize edits made by both Mikebe and Patto1ro as being similar in a certain respect (that is, evidence to bring to a checkuser), when I was asked by another admin what I thought was the evidence for sockpuppetry. While I probably shouldn't have accused Patto1ro of sockpuppetry at the time I did, I certainly do not think it was an "abuse" of admin privileges. As noted above by others, this is really a content dispute that has gotten somewhat personal. As such, any further discussion from me will take place off AN/I.  OzLawyer / talk  17:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Dangerous Frenchie[edit]

Normally I'd take this to AIV, but he's not really been warned in the last week with the full range of templates, and he's written some of it in French. I think this is so far enough over the line you'd need a telescope. For those of you who don't speak French, he claims to have and use numerous socks, says the other user is a dirty facist faggot (huh?) and he will bugger him, asks the other user if he wants to meet up for a fight, and gives the other user's IP address as proof that he can track him down. This was after having been warned fairly politely by two other editors to stop making personal attacks. yandman 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

D'accord, j'ai fait un block de longtemps sur cet utilisateur. Feel free to correct my French, or my block, but I blocked him for three weeks due to extreme incivility and personal attacks. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 17:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought 'Frenchie' was a derogatory term? Why is it being used in the title above? (OK, the WP article is now about the western, but how about the urban dictionary definition? Carcharoth 17:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Knowing a bit about French culture I'd say that the term "Frenchie" is moreso viewed as a tongue-in-cheek ref to French people and not so much derogatory. (Netscott) 17:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Main page[edit]

Can somebody please unlock my main page? It has gone three month... --Striver 00:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you planning on placing fair use images there again? This appears to be the reason your page was protected in the first place. Repeated requests were made for you to remove them and not replace them, but you didn't seem to want to cooperate. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I've unprotected. I'm sure Striver will adhere to our fair use policy -- Samir धर्म 07:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Zoe Tay[edit]

On November 8, I ran across the Zoe Tay article while doing Recent changes patrol. I had never heard of the person, but the article as I saw it at that time was incredibly peacockish. I put a {{pov}} tag on the article and explained my reasoning on the Talk page. User:Walaha2006 removed the tag and said on the Talk page, "The article is fine". Well, no, it wasn't fine. I explained to the user that removal of a pov tag without discussing the changes was not acceptable, and put the tag back on, but Walaha removed it again, and I blocked them temporarily and tried to explain that repeated removal of the POV tag was vandalism (all right, I admit, I should have gotten somebody else to do the blocking). So Walaha came in with a series of sock puppets to repeatedly remove the tag. I finally decided that I would stop just slapping the tag on the page, and made some rather extensive edits myself, to cut down on the fannishness, to remove some rather libelous comments, and to add "citation needed" tags on a lot of places in the article. Walaha reverted. Since that time, a large number of sock puppets have come in and repeatedly reverted any and all edits made by anybody to Walaha's preferred version. Each one has been indefinitely blocked. But now it's time to sprotect the page, and it's probably not me who should do it. Would anyone else care to look through the history of the article and let me know if my edits are wrong, and if they agree that the page should be sprotected, by someone other than me? Thank you. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

After having a quick look through the history, and comparing the versions which are being reverted, I would endorse a semi-protection. Sockpuppets to circumvent Wikipedia policy/practice/guidelines, such as WP:OWN, are covered as reasons to semi-protect/full-protect in the protection policy. Daniel.Bryant T · C ] 01:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
And semi-protected by Sarah Ewart (talk · contribs).[8] Cheers for that, Sarah. Daniel.Bryant T · C ] 01:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Daniel. Sorry I was a bit slow coming back...I was too busy pondering the article. It's awful! I think maybe it should be chopped back to a short bio stub. Most of it seems to be the opinion of the author and crufty unverifiable rubbish. Seriously, who cares if she liked climbing trees when she was a kid! Sarah Ewart 02:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Sarah. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, User:Walaha2006 is apparently the latest sockpuppet who has reverted all User:Zoe's edits to Zoe Tay. The most outrageous thing is, User:Walaha2006 is applying for administrator status! Please kindly do something about this; help would be greatly appreciated! OngBS 16:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The incomplete application is here. It hasn't yet been added to the main Wikipedia:Requests for adminship page. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

More Cplot socks[edit]

I've just been playing whack-a-mole with some more Cplot socks. Several I've indef-blocked after a single edit. I've also semi-protected Tom harrison's talk page. Hopefully I haven't over-reached on anything. If someone feels like double checking and reversing any actions which were over zealous I'd be much obliged. Thanks. --StuffOfInterest 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem. That's excellent work StuffOfInterest. Keep up the good work. --ItWillNeverEnd 04:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
With above post, is this guy trying to give himself away? That's an honest, not flippant question. -Patstuarttalk|edits 04:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
That's what it looks like doesn't it. What sorts of trolling has this troll been up to? How many articles have they vandalized? --StopPropoganda 05:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Based on links to my talk page, I see that Cplot's propaganda piece is still on at least five of his sock's talk pages. Is there any policy regarding deleting talk pages of socks so that they don't serve as a propaganda distribution point? The ones in question right now are:

Just trying to sweep up the mess from last night... --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Range block assistance[edit]

Due to persistent trolling from a banned sockpuppet, User:Cplot, on a certain ISP, we need a range block.

I've reinstated two from earlier this week:

  • 70.8.0.0/16
  • 68.30.0.0/16

But I think the user jumps around more on other ranges on the ISP, since those blocks were not entirely effective. A list of IP addresses used is here. A whois query shows these net ranges:

  • 70.0.0.0 - 70.14.255.255
  • 68.24.0.0 - 68.31.255.255

I have tried entering these into the netmask calculator, but not entirely sure what to do with the results and what exactly to block. Blocks need to prevent these IP addresses from creating accounts. The ISP uses dynamic IPs, so the user keeps jumping around to different IP addresses. I have tried contacting the ISP multiple times, but no response yet. Please advise. --Aude (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

First one appears to be a 12 bit mask and the second one appears to be a 13 bit mask. I'm hesitant to block that big of range, but this guy is out of control. It just may be needed. It would be nice to get the new check user request back. --StuffOfInterest 03:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
If the ISP was responding to my multiple queries and working with us, then I would be more lenient. But, I'm still waiting to hear something from them. Maybe the two blocks will at least slow him down. --Aude (talk) 03:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably editng from multiple locations...work, home, internet cafe.--MONGO 05:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of talk pages out there that appear to be storing their manifesto, including both of the above redlinks... Tony Fox (arf!) 05:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not much can be done about that since it is still obtainable in the article histories. I wish the troll would simply limit his attacks to me and not on others...if he would do that only, it would be an improvement as I am used to having sock armies attack me and have been for almost six months now...what about it Cplot? Care to just pick on me for now on?--MONGO 06:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, Mongo, Mongo. Were you worried we would stop chastising you and you would start to feel lonely? Not a chance. You put that smile back on your face. And yes, we'll limit it to you, Fred Bauder, Tom Harrison, Aude Vivere, Tbeatty, Regebro, NuclearUmpf, StuffOfInterest, Morton Devonshire, and a few others. But no one else. How about that? --ItsALostCause 15:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take that as an admission. Mole whacked. AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Goodlief trolling RfC[edit]

Goodlief (talk · contribs · logs) registered and somehow has found his way to the RfC page wherein he has commented on a number of user conduct RfC's, sometimes with inflammatory comments. He's placed comments in the wrong section of RfC's and is reverting changes I make as a result. I view his behaviour as trolling, but would like someone uninvolved to look into it -- Samir धर्म 07:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like trolling to me. I just gave him a warning.--MONGO 07:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
He's continuing to do so. I'm blocking him for 48 hours, but as I initiated one of the RfC's in question, I leave this up for review here -- Samir धर्म 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
He's been leaving comments at numerous Rfc's and he just registered today. A 48 hour block is more than acceptable.--MONGO 07:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Can someone fix his unilateral copy-and-paste move of Humor (his first edit)? Daniel.Bryant T · C ] 07:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Done -- Samir धर्म 07:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... "WoW, the inside of Wikipedia is horrible. I'll stay on the outside and just use it instead..." sounds like we need to block him indefinitely and impose his leaving the project.—Řÿūłóñģ (竜龍) 19:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Indef block?[edit]

Judging by his first <100 contribs, this guy is acting a way which perfectly defines "troll". His/her first edit(s) were to unilaterally copy-and-paste move humour to humor - this debate, whilst only settled recently, was one of the most bitter I've ever read. His/her next action was to disrupt RfC - how on earth does a "newbie" find RfC so quickly, and understand how it works? Not only that, but a number of his/her comments were extremely disruptive and inflammatory, and he/she also (deliberately) removed other peoples' comments, admitting he/she'd never read the RfC anyways. Finally, to cap it all off, some more trolling at User talk:Samir (The Scope). I'll leave it open to you guys, but I know what I'd do. Throw in the above comment quoted by Ryu, and it looks an open-and-shut case. Daniel.Bryant T · C ] 22:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

198.144.206.230 - Multiple Vandalisms[edit]

Multiple vandalisms in the past hour. Final has been issued. PWdiamond 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Please report obvious vandalism to WP:AIV once the user has vandalised despite a final warning, and sign and subst user warning templates. --Sam Blanning(talk) 20:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

User:74.103.137.166[edit]

This user has repeatedly vandalized the page Bardia, as can be seen on the page's history. The user has been warned repeatedly by other Wikipedia editors.

Ban evasion and vandalism by Eowbotm[edit]

Note: This incident was automatically archived without resolution. I am reposting exactly as it appears in the archives. It's a pretty straightforward case and I would appreciate any feedback/remedies you guys can offer.

I thought about taking this to WP:SSP, but decided to try posting here first. Blocked user Eowbotm (talk · contribs) appears to be evading his block with the use of accounts Eowbotm1 (talk · contribs), Eowbotm2 (talk · contribs), Eowbotm3 (talk · contribs), and Eowbotm4 (talk · contribs). All of these accounts have committed vandalism:

Vandalism, POV, and other reverted shenanigans (a lot of which is very subtle)

Evidence incidcating that they're the same accounts (besides the names)

  • And an edit indicating that Eowbotm3 is Eowbotm2. [21]
  • And edits by Eowbotm3 and Eowbotm1 to Eowbotm, suggesting a link. [22] [23]
  • An edit by Eowbotm1 to Eowbotm4, in case more evidence is needed. [24]

I've also found that this user cleared vandalism warnings off his talk pages for Eowbotm1 and Eowbotm4. And just did so again with Eowbotm1 (a day later).

Can we get these sockpuppets of a blocked user who has consistently vandalized on his socks blocked as well? And perhaps an IP ban or something to keep him from doing this again? Thanks in advance. —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 18:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded by me, as one of his victims Mgoodyear 19:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Try WP:SSP? -Amarkov blahedits 03:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Can't socks of indefinitely banned users just be banned by an admin though? WP:SSP takes 10 days. =/ —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 03:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can at least say that WP:SSP isn't necessary for vandalism-only accounts, and if those aren't sockpuppets, they're impersonators, which also violates Wikipedia policy(not sure which, however).--Vercalos 04:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Post-Block Socks[edit]

You've won the battle, but you havent won the war...get down on your knees and take what's coming to you...eowbotmwashere 14:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
And another sock of Eowbotm's gets banned. ^^ —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 22:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

58.170.255.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is highly likely to be Eowbotm (talk · contribs). Edits to the Feminism article are consistent with Eowbotm's editing style ("get back in the kitchen" comments). Compare an edit made by his blocked sock Fortunefaded (talk · contribs) [25] with the IP 8.170.255.90 [26]. Would it be possible to get this IP blocked for a more lengthy period of time? —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 21:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Lantoka, that ip is more likely to be just another vandal than eowbotm. You can read the main commment on the page for the ip.69.19.14.39 23:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The above IP was blocked by Malo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) because it was used to edit on Notapuppetofeowbotm21 (talk · contribs), a sock of Eowbotm. —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 01:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Man, this guy looks intense...I just tagged maybe 7 more obvious sock puppets(user:notapuppetofeowbotm2, i.e.) What can we do about it?RetrialByFire 03:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

See Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Eowbotm for a complete list. —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Requesting block for non-consensus page moves[edit]

I am requesting that Yaksha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) be blocked for engaging in hundreds of non-consensus page moves. There has been no attempt to go through WP:RM, and requests on Yaksha's talkpage to cease the moves have been to no avail[27][28]. Edit summaries claim that the moves are in accordance with WP:TV-NC; however that guideline is clearly in dispute, as is evidenced by Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television), which Yaksha has supposedly "agreed" to [29], but such agreement has not seemed to stop continued bad faith actions. Immediate admin intervention is requested, to prevent further disruption of hundreds more pages. --Elonka 19:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with blocking anyone or stopping any page moves. Josiah Rowe (talk · contribs) is another admin who has been involved in the discussion at WT:NC-TV and has also supported page moves. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Both Josiah Rowe and Wknight94 are actively involved in the dispute, as can be seen at the Mediation page, and as such are not in any position to be making decisions about blocks. Further, as admins, both of you should be speaking up to stop non-consensus moves, rather than encouraging unilateral action by what is clearly a secondary user account. --Elonka 19:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
"Non-consensus moves" is a blatant mischaracterization that you've repeatedly made with no evidence to support it. Actively involved or not, I can make a recommendation. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, could you spicify which policy was violated by Yaksha? It is not the first time that we see you forum shopping for blocks on this page, therefore each of your complaints should be scrutinized more than carefully. If you dispute Yaksha's actions, why don't you pursue standart dispute resolution procedures? This page is not part of the DR process, you know. --Ghirla -трёп- 19:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Per WP:RM, controversial moves need to be formally requested and debated. There has been no such attempt for the articles that Yaksha is moving -- not even so much as a courtesy note at the series page. As for WP:DR, both MedCom and MedCab are in-process, but Yaksha is proceeding with the moves anyway. I would also point out that the series page had a clear notice at the top of the page showing how episodes were to be named, which, though it had been there for many months, Yaksha removed without any attempt at discussion. [30]. This is clearly a disruptive user who is acting without consensus, and needs to be stopped. --Elonka 19:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As I have seen how much damage such unilateral moves can do, I strongly support Elonka - if the users ignores warnings and discussions, and disrupts wiki with moves, blocks are in order.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I must strongly support Elonkas position, there has been a lot of patience towards these unilateral moves and a lot of requests for them to stop. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 20:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I support these moves and strongly oppose any block. WP:RM says that moves may be simply moved by an editor if they are not controversial - I don't consider them controversial, since the moves follow WP:D, WP:NAME and consensus agreement at WP:TV-NAME I feel they do have consensus support. In the cases where a RM was used, there have been comments asking why it was needed. I consider one or two editors making a blanket declaration that a potential move of any TV article would be controversial to be a disruptive attempt to slow consensus action by making it as cumbersome as possible. On a similar RM that is going on now, MatthewFenton even went so far as to suggest that each page move should have a seperate RM with a separate discussion (even though there's currently a clear consensus to pass the move). I find it incredibly bad faith on Elonka's part to complain about unilateral page moves and then within minutes, start doing edits and page moves on those very same pages (with a "per ANI" edit summary, even though no admin here has given her permission to move pages back). And neither medcom nor medcab are in progress - medcom was attempted but multiple users, including myself, declined because of Elonka's continued evidence of bad faith. Elonka tried starting a medcab case, but I doubt it will go anywhere either for the same reasons. I don't see potential mediation as a reason to ignore wikipedia guidelines (particularly when, in the absence of WP:TV-NAME, the moves are still supported by WP:D and WP:NAME), if anything I see Elonka's "attempts" at mediation as an excuse to try to get a de-facto "injunction" and try and stop consensus moves. As were her attempts to unilaterally declare WP:TV-NAME "in dispute", even revert warring in an attempt to ad a "disputed" tag. --Milo H Minderbinder 20:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As a demonstration of good faith, at least two formal requested moves have taken place with in this dispute. One is still in progress, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)#Proposed moves for episodes of The Wire, the other was Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC 3#Requested move. We continue to establish a consensus over and over again. -- Ned Scott 21:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Statement from the MedCom[edit]

These page moves have been made unilaterally and without established consensus from all parties involved. This is disruptive to a potential mediation case. However, I cannot endorse a block or lack thereof due to our committee's commitment to remaining neutral in disputes. I do beg Yaksha to please cease her actions until consensus has been reached, and allow the pages to be moved back to where they were for the time being.

On behalf of the Mediation Committee, ^demon[omg plz] 19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

For further reference, please see #Non-consensus page moves. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Demon, might I ask you to clarify your statement? It is being interpreted by Elonka as an official decree that there is no consensus for WP:TV-NAME. It looks to me like you're just saying there's no consensus for this particular group of moves. Please clarify, as Elonka is already using your comments as ammo elsewhere. Thanks. --Milo H Minderbinder 21:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Five parties have disagreed to the mediation request. It's no longer a potential case, it's a case awaiting official rejection. -- Ned Scott 21:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The page moves are not unilateral. Many editors have been helping with page moves since the start of the month. The mediation suddenly popping up shouldn't be an extra excuse for Elonka to complain about them. The moves do have consensus - this much is obvious from the results of the one Request Move entry which i did file (here is the Request Move entry which i filed, after Lost editors insisted there was consensus to not move the articles. We ended at 15 support vs. 3 oppose, and the RM closed with a "all moved"). They also directly follow naming conventions, not only WP:TV-NC (not the convention itself was never under debate, just the issue of whether and how to allow exceptions) but also WP:D. --`/aksha 00:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've filed in a Request Moves for one TMNT03 episode, where the move was reverted by Elonka. The RM can be found here. Guess this would be a good time to see exactly how far Elonka's claim of my page moves being "against consensus" and "unilateral". --`/aksha 00:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Per the request of WP:MEDCOM above, I recommend that this and any further RMs which are submitted by parties to this dispute -- no matter who submits them -- be speedily closed. --Elonka 01:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me? but since when did the MedCom have that kind of authority? You ask for me to be blocked, on the basis that i'm not going through Request Moves to make page moves. So i put one of the moves which you reverted through Request Moves, and you ask for it to be closed?
Exactly what are you trying to do? You complain about my page moves being non-consensus. When all the Request Moves filed so far show the moves to be very much pro-consensus. So you decide it's not good for your case and instead demand us close off the Request Moves?
So moving without Request MOves means you threaten to block me, and moving with Request Moves means you ask for speedy closes? Exactly how are we supposed to get anything moved?
Or is your entire tactic to simply delay the moving until we all get bored and decide to leave?
Seriously, all the Request Moves show clear consensus for moves. Just deal with it and stop trying to stir up problems that don't exist. --`/aksha 01:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
For the record, most of the users participating in this ANI thread so far (including myself, Wknight94, Ned Scott, Milo H Minderbinder, and Yaksha (`/aksha) are actively involved in the dispute, leaving the only outside opinions so far to be those of Ghirla, Piotrus, and ^demon. Additional neutral admin opinions would be appreciated. --Elonka 03:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

MAJOR CLARIFICATION[edit]

Once again, I am NOT endorsing the pages be one way or the other, NOR do I request that the moves go through a particular medium. However, I am notifying here in addition to at WP:RFM that the mediation has been rejected. I do not see mediation as being successful through our medium. I leave you with this: I suggest everyone involved stop what they're doing, calm down, then try to figure it out again. Massive page moving (whether with consensus or not) is not going to solve this debate.

On the behalf of the Mediation Committee, ^demon[omg plz] 01:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me just drop a clarification in here: A mediator may issue a request to a party in mediation to cease a certain behavior for the good of the mediation; it is not, however, an enforceable directive outside the mediation. Mediators do not have the power to order parties to do or not do certain things; mediations are always voluntary. What a mediator can do, and what this has forced ^demon to do, is close the mediation as a failure, if the parties are not willing to refrain from conduct that harms the mediation. So, to be clear: ^demon was within policy to make the request to cease, and he is within policy to close the mediation. Failure to abide by the mediator's request is not enforceable outside the mediation (Note to everyone involved: If you're trying to get anyone blocked based on this, stop, it isn't going to happen.); it is, however, cause for the mediation to be closed as failed. If the parties are still interested in settling the issue, they'll need to seek an RfC or arbitration.
For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk), Chairman of the Mediation Committee 02:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

sight[edit]

Can somebody take a look --Striver 19:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I noted this because it speaks very much to the behavior of a group of POV pushers on that article. RunedChozo 20:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

  • It's one thing to note POV edits or collusion. It is another thing entirely to engage in a personal attack against an editor (as you did by insinuating he is part of Al-Qaeda) because you have a content or behavior dispute with them. I'd suggest Striver takes it to WP:PAIN if RunedChozo does it again.--Isotope23 20:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I did not insinuate he is part of Al Qaeda, but he is certainly very sympathetic to terrorist viewpoint and propaganda, and he is trying to make a page in Wikipedia into a terrorist propaganda page. This is POV pushing of the worst sort. RunedChozo 21:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I took it upon myself to put the warning template on RunedChozo's talkpage, as I am one in the discussion that has disagreed with Striver a fair deal. I did so because I was hoping he would accept it from me more than he would from one of Striver's supporters. Civility is key.--Rosicrucian 21:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC) WP:PAIN. That one is new to me. Ill use that in the future. Thanks. --Striver 03:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Impersonator? Not sure[edit]

While checking the history of an article in DYK, I noticed the page had been moved by a User:Geejo. The guy's been around since late September, and seems to be mostly just moving pages around to new titles, some sensibly and others not so sensibly. I'm a bit leery of taking any action myself given the obvious conflict of interest, but I can see the similarity causing some confusion down the line. Someone else care to weigh in on it? (for the record, I've had this username for a year and a half now, and was promoted to admin status a few months after the creation of Geejo's account) GeeJo (t)(c) • 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked as a violation of WP:USERNAME + up-to-no-good account. | Mr. Darcy talk 03:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Instruction creep[edit]

Badlydrawnjeff (talk · contribs) and Steve Hart (talk · contribs) have apparently gotten the impression that legalistic and bureaucratic guidelines are a good idea, and that our long-standing page against it should be deprecated. I'm not sure what Steve's reasoning is, but Jeff's appears to be his dissent with the current wording or procedures at WP:CSD, although he has declined to point out specifics. Anyway could I get some comments on the issue of whether or not we should keep avoiding instruction creep? (Radiant) 14:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Way to completely misrepresent my argument. At no point did I say "legalistic and bureaucratic guidelines are a good idea," I've merely said that the way we handle our guidelines and procedures are "instruction creepy," and that your tagging of WP:CREEP as a guideline is premature, lacks general consensus, and hasn't been approached properly. I do not know what this has to do with AN/I, honestly, but if you're going to draw attention to my claims, have the common courtesy to be accurate about it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Way to completely misrepresent my actions. It's not "premature", it was three months ago and despite this page being heavily linked and in use, there have been no objections at all in that time. (Radiant) 14:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thus my complaint. You haven't had any objections because no one knew about it becoming a guideline with minimal discussion. Now that people are noticing it, they're coming out in opposition. That tends to happen. Considering WP:CREEP is linked to less than 50 times and the actual page less than 50 as well, your claim of it being "heavily linked" also lacks merit. It especially lacks links to the various pumps, which is telling. The meta page may be linked a lot, but that doesn't make it guideline here without discussion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
We should keep avoiding instruction creep. El_C 14:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Indeed we should. And we do. But I'm looking at the talk page of WP:CREEP and seeing very little discussion and NO consensus anywhere to make this a guideline. It doesn't matter if Radiant did this 3 months ago, he did it with almost no input from the community. This is the kind of unilateral behaviour that makes me worry were he elected to arbcom. pschemp | talk 14:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
However, see the second section on its talk page, "Wikipedians who have used "instruction creep"". It shows usage by 36 users - hardly a lack of input. (Radiant) 15:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they have used it. And possibly did while it was still an essay. But no actually gave input, your claim that use is input on the question of changing this from an essay to a guideline is illogical. Additionally, You are missing that fact that I stated there was no input into the change from essay to guideline, I didn't say no one ever used it. Its the changing of the status with no input that is the issue here. (Not to mention 36 people is a trivial amount on Wikipedia. I'm quite sure our other guidelines have thousands of instances of use. More people believe in the flying spaghetti monster than 36.) A change like this without input or in case without even an attempt to get input deserves to be questioned as inappropriate. pschemp | talk 15:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've just read WP:CREEP and I agree with most of what it says. The bit I disagree with is the last paragraph:

"Page instructions should be pruned regularly. Gratuitous requirements should be removed as soon as they are added. All new policies should be regarded as instruction creep until firmly proven otherwise."

This is a classic case of over-generalisation, and may indeed be an example of instruction creep itself. Page instructions should be pruned when needed, not regularly. Not all new policies should be regarded as instruction creep. It should be easy to identify whether a new policy is instruction creep or not, without assuming it is guilty. It is much easier, and less derogatory, to consider whether a new policy is identical to, or an extension of, an existing guideline or policy, and then subsume the new policy under the old one by merging or redirecting. Slapping the derogatory label "instruction creep" on something is the wrong approach because, as the page says, the efforts are often "well-meaning".

More generally though, it is important to realise that the opposite process can happen. Just as instructions can get so bloated that they are useless, they can also be so excessively pruned that they are equally useless, something I've termed "anti-instruction creep creep" in the past. Maybe WP:PRUNE is needed?

The essence of the argument is that some people want detailed instructions, and some want brief, bullet-pointed nutshells that help them remember things. It should be obvious that the new editor will want something short and clear, the inexperienced editor will want more detailed explanations and instructions, and the experienced editor will want a brief summary with their own annotations added to make it as clear as possible to them. The trouble comes when people start adding what should be their own personal notes (which could be added to an 'examples' page) to the main document, lead to bloat and instruction creep.

It is also extremely important to distinguish between instruction creep and genuinely useful additions to a guideline. Sometimes a logical step is missing from a guideline or set of instructions, and adding it is simply filling in a gap and is not instruction creep. Also, it is invariably the case that someone expanding an instruction either finds it useful, or thinks someone else will find it useful. If you don't find it useful, ask yourself "can I put this somewhere else instead of just deleting it?" and "how can I make sure those reading the main guideline know how to find these extra instructions if they want them?" Carcharoth 15:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hm, considering that we actually don't regularly prune page instructions, I'd say we remove that phrase. (Radiant) 15:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
PS. I've also commented, with examples <gasp>, at Wikipedia talk:Instruction creep Wikipedia talk:Avoid instruction creep (gah! why didn't that talk page get redirected...), in case those here haven't bothered to go there yet. Carcharoth 15:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Concur with Carcharoth's post overall, w/gratitude (can't type much today, you saved me trouble/pain.) Creep bad; essay 2 guideline w/o community support = creep; what prune/regularity?! makes me think bad joke but not joke in this context, eh? KillerChihuahua?!? 15:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One handy way to avoid instruction creep is to never bother reading the rules in the first place. I haven't. --Cyde Weys 19:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL! A worthy response. But surely you want other people to read the rules? :-) Carcharoth 23:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How is this relevant to ANI? AN maybe, but where's the Incident? Georgewilliamherbert 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Block of User:Elaragirl[edit]

By User:Firsfron. While I do not dispute - others may - that this is inappropriate, my understanding is that blocks are supposed to preventative, not punitive. The blocked user does not have a history of repeated similar behaviour and in my opinion a few harsh words would have been adequate to prevent reoccurence of such behaviour, or even deleting the page in question. A block was not required, and is in violation of the blocking policy.

I strongly request unblock for Elaragirl. Moreschi 18:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of the blocking policy. Perhaps I am misinterpreting it. riana_dzasta 18:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
While I'm perhaps flattered to be considered a "Good" admin, this kind of thing is unacceptable and it isn't an isolated instance of incivility. On the balance of things a 24 hour wikibreak is no hardship. I don't know that I would have made the block, but I won't overturn it. Mackensen (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree, but I think that a warning (from an uninvolved party) would have sufficed, that's all. riana_dzasta 18:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Was she even warned to begin with, though? Also, it seems like she's getting it from some other areas, which may be part of the issue. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Given this exchange - which got pretty much laughed out of the house - I would also question the absolute appropriateness of Firsfron making this block. Moreschi 19:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hardly. He's not in a dispute with her. I see no problem with an admin who previously warned someone over something blocking for same. Mackensen (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
As one of the people involved in the subsequent discussion thread on Firsfron's comment above, I have to say that I see no impropriety in this block as it may or may not relate to the comment. Plus, while my comments in that discussion thread might be seen in favor of "laughing out of the house", I would not characterize my position on Firsfron's comments in that way. —Doug Bell talk 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say the matter has come up (see [31] for a suggestive example). Mackensen (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure that the block on Elaragirl would not serve as a preventative measure, but I do think it is perhaps overkill (even though it's a mere 24 hours). While I have been bothered by the extremely acerbic nature of much of Elaragirl's commentary, she does generally keep it just this side of personal attacks and incivility (and I have to admit that often she puts people in their place). This edit was clearly over the line, though, and if such comments were made by some Joe Schmoe with fifty edits, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye. It's only because Elaragirl is so clearly visible on places like WP:AN (and has her fans), has, I think, there been a real issue with this block. But then, I might argue that being so visible causes the situation to actually be different than if it were a block of just some wanker. In closing (this comment sure ended up being a lot longer than I intended), I'm a wimp, so I'm not going to intervene.  OzLawyer / talk  19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
How many times must a user be warned? This user was warned repeatedly by multiple users to refrain from making personal atttacks. See her talk page. This block is not in violation of the blocking policy, and as Mackensen says, it isn't an isolated instance of incivility. Firsfron of Ronchester 19:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I completely disagree with the section in the admin criteria, and while I defend Elara's right to be sarcastic, I am frequently concerned by her comments, and how they affect both her and the person they are directed towards. However, given that there is an ongoing RfC regarding her behaviour, I'm not convinced as to whether a block was necessary. riana_dzasta 19:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
While I hate to do it, I believe Elaragirl may have stepped over the line this time. As Firsfron indicated, she has been warned to be careful in the past. This 24-hour block amounts to little more than a slap on the wrist, and I don't believe Firsforn overstepped any bounds by imposing it. While I enjoy Elaragirl's enthusiasm and wit, I do think that there are limits. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

As flattering as it is to be called an "excellent administrator", other parts of the diff in question are clearly unacceptable, and I wouldn't support any overturning of admin actions that have already been undertaken in this case. --Cyde Weys 19:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

And I think that type of strong unwavering comment (exactly the opposite of mine!) is exactly why Elaragirl thinks you're an excellent admin (hope that doesn't mean I'm a crap one).  OzLawyer / talk  19:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll echo what Cyde said. 24 hours is more than I'd've given, but not too much for an obviously unacceptable edit that I'd actually object to it. A mere warning would strike me as slightly ridiculous; I'm sure Elaragirl knows already that given her general demeanour she needs to be careful about crossing the line. Her general attitude I have no problem with, just with isolated mistakes like this. --Sam Blanning(talk) 19:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Elaragirl herself has said she won't contest the block, and from what (relatively little) I've gathered about her personality, I think it's because she knows that she's broken her own rules and is ready to take her lumps. This whole thing is pretty much moot.  OzLawyer / talk  19:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, thanks for the input, guys. riana_dzasta 19:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That edit was over the line. I wouldn't unblock. --Deskana talk 20:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate Elaragirl's style and I think people frequently overreact and incorrectly label her wit, sarcasm and bluntness as WP:NPA violations. I also have some reservations on whether blocking was the best option at this point for the edit in question. However, I can't argue for overturning this block, at this time, for that edit. —Doug Bell talk 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Elaragirl often uses sarcasm, wit, and bluntness to good effect. I don't see how edits like "Geogre is a fucking idiot" or others can be mistaken for anything other than personal attacks. Thanks, though, everyone for the review. I think reviewing such blocks is important. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no great opinion on this but I would like to comment that I found there doesn't seem to be any process for a user to appeal a block on a third party. So I wrote my own template, User:Fys/3rdparty-unblock. Feel free to use if you so wish. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 22:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. Elaragirl definitely overstepped the bounds here. She hasn't been on Wikipedia long enough to know enough about these admins and such, and I think she just based her opinions on that of other Wikipedians. Whatever, I think the block was justified. Nishkid64 22:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Elaragirl has been very helpful towards me. --SunStar Nettalk 23:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
...but the 24h block got nothing to do w/ your experience. Nothing wrong w/ having a list of "excellent" and "bad" admins but i'd not call anybody stupid. I dislike me being warned about something i could avoid, let alone being blocked 'cause of that afterwards. We have to be consistent and prove to some people we got no cabal in here. -- Szvest Wikiquote-logo.svg Wiki me up ® 12:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Disruption on Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945 and Talk:Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945[edit]

The article tagged as POV by users promoting unnacceptable, pro-Soviet POV (i.e claiming Baltic states were not occupied by the USSR). The whole talk page is full of sources, proving that world community generally regarded Soviet rule as occupation. Despite obvious sources and clear third party opinions [32], users Irpen, Ghirlandajo, Grafikm fr continue blogging the talk page with their own inventions and 'analysis' based on Soviet propaganda myths.

Probably violating Wikipedia policies:

and refusal to recognise established opnion of the world community/researchers: [34], [35] [36] (claiming Baltic states joined the USSR - this is not acceptable opinion) [37]

Constanz, you are fresh from a 3RR block and back to tendentious editing again? I did not add a single sentence to the article in question, therefore your accusations are both misleading and offensive. Please take a note that WP:ANI is not part of dispute resolution process, therefore your message will most likely be ignored here. I see that it was User:Piotrus who advised you to move your disputes to this page, and I think he should be reprimanded for doing so. His previous forum shopping activities are already under scrutiny here. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference desk problem and block[edit]

As some may remember, I have been working recently on the problem of the Wikipedia:Reference desk, which as for some time been misused by a few users as a place for general discussion rather than its intended purpose. My first approach was to discuss the use of the reference desk, and appropriate ways of regulating it; these discussions (with some users) were extensive, and resulted in me writing out a personal plan for removing highly inappropriate comments and discussion from the reference desk: User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals. Applying this procedure worked fine until last night, when I removed an entirely off-topic joke discussion. I informed DirkvdM (talk contribs count) that I had done this, and he took exception. I spent a long period of time explaning why my actions follow from the spirit of Wikipedia policy and the purpose of the reference desk (see User talk:DirkvdM#Reference desk removal), but he repeatedly reverted my edits even after I made it clear that (in my best judgement) his reversions were disruptive. I therefore warned him that he would be blocked if he continued to disrupt the ref desk. He subsequently restored the comments, so I blocked him for 12 hours to prevent further disruption.

Thus I have failed in my original plan to improve the reference desk through discussion; several other admins have tried before me, and run out of patience rather faster than I did. In my best judgement, drawing a line in the sand and saying "some comments can be, and will be, removed to keep the page on topic" was the only remaining approach. When DirkvdM became stubborn on this point, I couldn't see a better option than to block for disruption. However, I have blocked a generally good contributor for restoring that he believes was legitimate content, and my actions should be reviewed. I would appreciate any comments. Thanks, SCZenz 21:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC) (SCZenz (talkcontribsblocksprotectsdeletionsmoves))

I think the idea of removing comments by another editor is generally a bad thing, but in the case of the reference desk I would support your actions as it is very easy to get sidetracked with irrelevant things. In order to keep the place in order and useful, the desk must be kept on the point. Each question and topic on the desk should stay within its boundaries else people will not think the desk is actually any use.
In this case, removing DirkvdM's irrelevant and off-topic comment was appropriate and his trying to force it back on, regardless of the purpose of the page was disruptive. It is a case of using your common sense to prevent the page losing focus. -Localzuk(talk) 21:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I also concur with the removal and the block. SCZenz made an extraordinary effort to communicate with the user and explain exactly why it wasn't appropriate for the reference desk. As the first place many new Wikipedians go, it is important for it to maintain focus. Dirk claims that we are taking the fun out of Wikipedia, but there is no way irrelevent penis jokes on the reference desk make the encyclopedia better and he does not have an inalienble right to post them as his comments seem to indicate. Thank you SCZenz for tackling this tough area with patience and wisdom. pschemp | talk 21:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

LCs retorts[edit]

Surprise surprise! 8-( But Dirk saw it as relevant as he (and I) found ithe Q unclear.--Light current 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh and BTW, how are the RDs supposed to make WP better? Anyone know?--Light current 01:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Things that should be removed would include death threats and racial slurs. Bad jokes, while they perhaps shouldn't be made in the first place, certainly do not rise to the level of something to be removed, and blocking a user over such an issue is absurd. StuRat 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree! 8-)--Light current 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZ has written, and is operating by, his own guidelines on which he has failed to obtain consensus for acceptance. He is acting autocratically and is guilty of harrassment. SCZ makes up the rules as he goes along. Is that how WP works?--Light current 00:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He is using common sense and a interpretation of our existing policies in order to keep an important area of the encyclopedia on task and focussed. Also, the user was blocked for edit warring with an admin - ok, this block should have been done by a seperate admin and the issue discussed in more detail elsewhere first, but the block did what it was supposed to do - stopped the edit war.
Remember, wikipedia is not a discussion forum - jokes do not come within the purpose of the site. The reference desk is one of the first points of contact for many users of this site and as such should be kept focussed - if it is not, then the site may lose some credibility due to what is in essence silly banter.
I think this is an issue that needs further discussion, maybe on the talk page of SCZenz's proposed guideline page?-Localzuk(talk) 00:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Hang on! Thats not a proposed Guideline! Its not been presented as such. Its been presenteted as SCZs Law!. I proposed guidelines weeks ago! SCZ said my guidelines were uneccessary and common sense would do!. So why has he suddenly changed his mind?--Light current 00:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What happened is that I wrote out my common-sense conclusions for the benefit of people who wanted to know what I was doing and why. My page is nothing but an explanation of how existing Wikipedia policy (plus a bit of common sense) already covers appropriate use of the reference desk, and what to do about inappropriate use. -- SCZenz 01:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
As I ve said so many times (but you were obviously not listening) Your common sense is NOT necessarily the same as other peoples. Get it yet? So you need to get consensus to ensure that a common sense of common sense is achielved!. Understand it yet?--Light current 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mind WP:CIVIL, theres no reason to shout. semper fiMoe 00:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Bold text is emphasis. THIS is shouting 8-)--Light current 17:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Samir[edit]

Guys, it's okay to have fun on the reference desk, as it's okay (and recommended!) to have fun elsewhere on Wikipedia, but please keep the conversations close to the topic at hand. A lot of users turn to the reference desk for answers to legitimate questions; it undermines the role of the desk somewhat if they end up with an irrelevant commentary in an attempt to be funny. I wholeheartedly support the intent of SCZenz's actions -- Samir धर्म 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I do feel bad that DirkvdM was blocked, though. He helped me immensely on the reference desk a couple of months ago, and I've noticed that he's given some exceptional RD answers to other questions -- Samir धर्म 04:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I feel bad about it too. -- SCZenz 04:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the next time this comes up I might be tempted to file an arbitration request to settle this damn issue once and for all. Do you imagine a real reference library would staff its front desk with children (or child-minded adults) making potty jokes? Thatcher131 04:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I once encountered at a large and famous public library, a pair of reference desk librarians, middle aged ladies, who chortled to each other with off-color remarks about a serious info request. It was pretty disgusting and I have not been back. Edison 14:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That's not a valid comparison. If Wikipedia was paying us, we might be willing to put up with a humorless and autocratic environment, but they are not. StuRat 04:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Pay peanuts... Actually I think the RDs get a damn good deal from the RD editors. THe only payment we get is a few jokes (not many of them now)--Light current 15:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
But that's the problem. What we see as a plea for simple decency you see as humorless and autocratic. Do you see a way to address this without handing it off to arbcom? Thatcher131 04:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the solution is to bring such issues up at the Ref Desk talk page, discuss them there, then come up with a consensus for a solution. This is the method which was working, with a few bumps here and there. But, since SCZenz didn't like how we were handling things, they chose to decide, without consensus, both what is appropriate and when an inappropriate comment rises to the level of requiring removal. I don't consider having any one person deciding such things to be appropriate, whether they are an Admin or not. StuRat 05:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes. What do you mean by simple decency? Whose standards would you be using? Yours, mine or someone eleses?--Light current 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this whole consensus discussion is a red herring. I'm not in favour of removing content from the RD, but IMO it's come to this because people have been so stubborn about defending indefensible contributions. IT'S A WIKI. Every single page belongs to the WikiMedia Foundation, and we release every single character we type to the GFDL. This means articles, talk pages, userpages, and the RD. Users generally have dominion over our userpages out of courtesy, not because we own them. But anyone can edit them. The editing or removal of on-topic talk page contributions is frowned upon because it defeats the purpose of the article talk page, which is to achieve consensus on the content of the article. The RD is not a talk page. Our every contribution is not sacrosanct. We are working towards solutions to individual problems posed as questions by individual posters, and as such, off-topic contributions are subject to removal. They haven't been up to now, but now they are. It doesn't need a change in policy, and it doesn't need consensus. It's as simple as that. IT'S A WIKI. Anchoress 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Im very sorry to have to say this, and its not an attack, but I find Anchoresss comment totally neutral and unhelpful in every way! It does not advance the discussion 8-( Really sorry! No offence! 8-( --Light current 00:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that it is a talk page. Let's look at some of the differences and decide where the Ref Desk falls:


ARTICLE RULES
===================================================
Don't sign posts.
Make any changes you think improves the article.
Rigid format rules (ie, for "References" section).
Length is limited by deleting redundant info.
TALK PAGE
==================================================
Sign all posts.
Only add to the talk page, except for archiving 
 and removing abusive language.
Lax format rules.
Length is limited by archiving.

StuRat 09:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I tend to disagree with arbitration for this; I think this can be handled at the admin level, which is what I've been trying to do. Unless other admins have concerns about my approach, I'm perfectly happy willing to continue removing inappropriate comments and (if necessary, and after due warning) blocking those who restore them. I don't think what I'm doing needs to be endorsed by ArbCom to be valid—but if other admins think having a statement from authority is preferable to my current approach, then I'll go along with that. -- SCZenz 04:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I completely support what you are doing, without arbcom endorsement. I might suggest an intermediate step of banning a problem user from the reference desk for a period of time, under threat of block, so they can edit elsewhere for a while. But if bans are the only way to get the point across that this is the community consensus (or at least admin consensus) then so be it. Thatcher131 04:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Admins deciding unilaterally to block people is not community consensus, and should only be used for severe abuse of the Ref Desk, not for telling a bad joke. StuRat 05:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The block was for the repeated and disruptive restoration of the irrelevant discussion, despite a clear warning. There was no consequence for making the joke except removal with a polite note—as indeed there should not be. -- SCZenz 05:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
That was a direct consequence of removing the comment, as no block would have occurred if you hadn't started the revert war then escalated to a block when you were unable to convince the user of your POV. StuRat 05:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCzenz 's actions were not unilateral as so far they have been supported by every admin who has commented on the page. Obviously then, there are people who agree with him and he isn't acting in a vacuum. I don't think arbcom is needed here either. Nor does it have to be an admin who removes inappropriate comments. "You're taking the fun out of Wikipedia" is an immature argument for leaving irrelevant penis jokes on some of our most public pages. pschemp | talk 05:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's unilateral in that it was decided before asking for the opinions of others. And, frankly, I bet Admins would support one another against the user community except for extremely blatant and obvious abuses. This isn't exactly surprising, as the question boils down to giving Admins more power and Users less power. As for anybody being able to remove a comment, that would allow the original user to restore the comment if they disagreed. However, when an admin removes your comment and you put it back, you get blocked, this is the issue. Your comment that SCZenz's actions are "supported by every admin who has commented on the page" also contains the hidden assumption that only the opinions of Admins matter, and all comments from the general user community (including regular Ref Desk contributors) can be ignored. StuRat 05:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, his explanation page has been there a while and other people have looked at it and agreed with it. You didn't know that, but it was discussed before action was taken. Therefore the actions was not unilateral. pschemp | talk 07:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The proper place for the discussion was the Ref Desk talk page, where it was discussed, and I don't believe there was any consensus reached that SCZenz should start deleting any comments he didn't like. And, in any case, each individual deletion is still unilateral, unless that specific deletion has been agreed to based on a consensus. For example, we might well all agree that death threats should be removed, but an Admin removing a statement that "bin Laden may be killed soon" would still be unilateral, because we have not agreed that this was a violation of the "no death threats" policy. StuRat 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
All opinions are important, but I think we especially value those from people who contribute to the Ref Desk regularly. After all, you guys are the ones actually doing the work of answering the questions. But don't you think some of the less-than-relevant commentary could be toned down a bit, StuRat? It's one of the things that personally turns me off the reference desk also. I see a lot of medical questions that I could answer, but they often devolve into joke-cracking threads that I feel somewhat silly adding to. -- Samir धर्म 07:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I do think that irrelevant silliness should be limited. However, this is not the same as saying we should start censoring the contributions of others, and most definitely not the same as saying we should start blocking regular contributors. This type of overreaction is more of a problem than the irrelevant silliness ever was. StuRat 08:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What you're saying is, if a user adds content to the reference desk that's bad for Wikipedia, I have no right to take any action? -- SCZenz 08:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Not unless it's really horrendous, and it wasn't, in this case. Put it this way, which is better, to have that joke removed and Dirk banned, or to leave both alone ? StuRat 09:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Considering just this one incident, it would be better to leave the joke. However, your argument will apply every single time the reference desk is used inappropriately. In the big picture, it's better to draw a line somewhere and insist that the reference desk not be misused. Dirk's decision to disrupt the reference desk to make a point about me being a despot was his own... and the consequences were what I warned they would be. -- SCZenz 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"It takes two to tango". That is, it was your decision to remove the comment, and yours to block him for restoring the rather innocuous comment. These actions seemed to be more about your pride than improving Wikipedia. StuRat 09:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Gandalf61 comment[edit]

My I add a comment, as a non-admin but long standing Wikipedian and regular RD contributor ? SCZenz is acting on his honest belief that the RDs need to be regulated and cleaned up. He has put some thought into this and has written up the standards to which he thinks RD questions and answers should conform. He has started to enforce these standards by deleting responses, and sometimes whole threads. Unfortunately, he does not have time to patrol the RDs regularly, so his deletions have a sporadic and ad-hoc quality. His actions are also encouraging victimisation of certain RD contributors by others - see recent discussions on the RD talk page. If there is concensus that SCZenz is doing the right thing, then there should be no need for him to patrol the RDs on his own. Please help him set up a process to regulate the RDs properly by applying an agreed set of rules regularly, consistently and fairly. The current vigilante situation is very unsatisfactory. Gandalf61 10:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

After edit conflict:

Samir, note that if the deletion of inappropriate stuff becomes policy any medical questions would be removed, so any answer you gave would also be removed. Be carefull when judging something you haven't felt the full brunt of. For this reason who should decide ref desk policy should be determined by how active they are at the ref desk, not by whether they are an admin. DirkvdM 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, the block is a minor issue (actually, I now notice the block has already ended). What's at stake here is the nature of the ref desk, and any discussions about that should take place at the talk page there. About SCZenz's behaviour, may an admin use his powers (in casu blocking me) in a discussion he is one of the original parties in? I thought that was not allowed. On my talk page I've split the issue in four subtopics: what should be allowed on the ref desk, whether that applies to me and LightCurrent, how should any misbehaviour (when that is defined) be dealt with and if SCZenz is allowed to decide that on his own (ignoring the fact that there is still a hefty discussion going on about this at the talk page).
Oh, and since that term was again used here, it was not a penis joke. It was an amusing misunderstanding followed by clarifying info. A joke is something you come up with and I didn't come up with it, it was something amusing that happened to me. But like I explained on my talk page, I wonder if SCZenz has a hidden agenda. He says he wants to remove off topic remarks. But he doesn't do that (consistently). In stead he seems to just remove stuff that doesnt' please him personally, in casu a subject that has to do with a reproductive organ. This is selective zero tolerance. Very dangerous. Rules should be applied systematically, not at someone's whim. And for that there should be rules in the first place. Let's first establish rules for the nature of the ref desk and how to deal with them. I'm rather tempted to start removing all off-topic remarks at the ref desk, to show how disruptive non-selective zero tolerance would be. But I won't be so childish (yet). :)
Btw, SCZenz, do you report all your deletions to all the people in the sub-thread? (And is that at all do-able?) If so, I'm surprised this is the first time you've deleted anything by me, considering I make loads of side-remarks and you claim to have been doing this for a long time already. (So you must have been doing it very selectively then.) DirkvdM 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I just checked, and you don't always warn people that you removed their contributions. As would indeed be impossible, even with a bot. And that is rather a major issue here. DirkvdM 11:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding complaints that I'm selective... I'm one person doing my best. We're all volunteers here; articles with no references get improved when someone have time, hoax pages get deleted when people notice them, admins are promoted when bureaucrats get around to it. Doing the right thing is still the right thing, even if it can't be done consistently. I have been removing primarily the most egregious examples of off-topic remarks, not indeed in the hope of getting them all, but rather in the hope of illustrating by example what kinds of discussion is definitely outside the purpose of the reference desk. In the long term, I have no intention of being the official reference desk "censor." I'm trying to draw a line in the sand, in order to help bring things back under control. The reference desk is off course, and helping it come back is a matter of applying existing policies, not arguing about new ones. And the reason other people aren't joining me in doing this is, frankly, that I can handle it myself and they have other things to do.
Regarding my "hidden agenda"... Yes, the fact that it was a juvenile penis joke is an aggrivating factor in my view. Talk about all the sex organs you like if it answers a question, but if new users think they're going to randomly have crude jokes thrown at them when they ask something not related to sex, it will intimidate them and keep them from using the reference desk. That's not okay, and Wikipedia not being censored doesn't mean I have to pretend it is. We don't censor content... but we're not talking about content here, now are we? We're talking about a pointless joke.
Ok, that's it for me commenting in this section, unless something else goes wrong. A number of other administrators have reviewed my actions (more than have commented, almost certainly) and I have yet to receive any word from them that I'm taking the wrong approach... so for now, I'll keep at it. You can make pretty speeches here some more if you want, or ask for more general and organized feedback at Wikipedia:Requests for comment... but as that page says, it's not a step to take lightly. -- SCZenz 17:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Zoes input[edit]

As an admin who frequently posts on the Reference Desk, I think the deletions and the block were completely out of line. SCZenz does not own the RD, and it is not his/her responsbility to police it. The Reference Desk is, indeed, a fun place, where there are a lot of jokes, but it is also a serious place where lots of questions get answered. Dirk's comment was hardly over the line, and, in fact, was probably perfectly reasonable. I strongly oppose SCZenz's actions, and would suggest taking it to the RD's Talk pages before repeating them. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This surprises me. However, without administrative consensus, I will not continue as I have been. I've tried to clarify my actions and the reasons for them on your talk page. -- SCZenz 18:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#The tone of the Reference Desk. SCZenz and I have had a discussion on our Talk pages, and we are looking for further consensus. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZenz, that you would be selective was a bit too specific, but the point I was making is that unless this is done consistently there is the risk of unfair selectiveness. To avoid this, it would have to be done by a larger group of people. And to avoid people getting too upset about it, it would have to be done by consensus and we're a long way from that. So far you haven't done too much deleting (you're nowhere near deleting all the of-topic remarks), and you've already got LightCurrent, StuRat and me, three of the most active people on the ref desk, on your neck. Step it up and the ref desk will become one big edit war zone. Don't step it up and you're being selective. The deletion at hand here was one that was much less off-topic than a whole lot of other stuff, so why did you delete this specific one? If you keep this up I will be tempted to start a revolt by applying your rules (your rules!) consistently.
You talk about getting the ref desk back on course, but we've both started working on it just over a year ago, and it was the same then as it is now, which is part of the reason I liked it so much.
And for the last time, it wasn't a juvenile penis joke. It wasn't a joke. And the other half was informative. But you have now confessed that that was the (extra) reason for deleting it. And that is what I mean by 'selective'.
As for the opinion of admins, like I said, it's the opinion of people active at the ref desk that counts, irrespective of whether they're admins. People need to know what they are talking about. DirkvdM 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The only people here who know about the ref desk are LightCurrent, StuRat, Anchoress, me, and to a lesser extent Gandalf 61, Zoe and you. And between the seven of us, there is not quite a consensus. Actually, most agree with me. DirkvdM 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me? Are you saying that people who don't edit the ref desk aren't fit to comment? You are bascially saying Samir and others don't know what they are talking about. If you are going to wield such accusations you may want to do so in the open. Personally I agree totally with SCZenz and just because you Stu and LightCurrent think irrelevent penis jokes are an appropriate thing does not make you correct. pschemp | talk 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
You obviously haven't been paying attention. We all agree that certain Ref Desk content may be inappropriate. What we disagree with is that an individual Admin has the right to decide unilaterally which content that is, remove it, and block any user who happens to disagree. And yes, we do feel that people who actually contribute to a project should have more say on the rules for how that project is managed than those who never, or only rarely, contribute. This is because it's very easy to come up with strict rules for others, so long as those rules never apply to you. And, if you never contribute to the Ref Desk, then those rules don't apply to you. StuRat 21:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Just like to say, in the spirit of standing up and being counted, that I don't have any problems with penis jokes (relevant or otherwise) on the RDs either. And also to point out the SCZenz's proposed criteria for deletion are far wider than just jokes - his criteria for deletion include "comments that are off-topic, opinion, or argumentative". Gandalf61 21:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
AAAAAARGH!! There was no penis joke! DirkvdM 11:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I hope it doesn't turn into that sort of pissing contest. I regularly work the reference desk, and I happen to agree with the practice of trimming out the really off-topic potty humour. You're welcome to be funny (within reason) if you're also being helpful. Otherwise, do try to remember that the Ref Desk is one place where a lot of new people may get their first exposure to Wikipedia, and that filling it with in-jokes and off-colour, off-topic humour is not exactly putting our best foot (or best face) forward.
On a related note, I think it's a really bad idea to edit war just to ensure that a stupid joke stays on the page. How, and who, does that help? What's the point of making that effort, exactly? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If nobody does anything to stop this sort of unilateral action by individual Admins, then they will continue with this obnoxious behavior. StuRat 21:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
How about if I say I agree with the action? It's no longer 'unilateral' – and how I hate to see that word dragged out every time someone makes a decision – now. Where does the edit warring over Dirk's foreskin (in answer to a fashion question, for goodness' sake!) fit in on your scale of 'obnoxious' behaviour? How does having that comment on the page make the Reference Desk more useful to anyone? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
It's still unilateral in that he didn't ask anyone BEFORE deleting the comment and blocking the user. The most obnoxious part is the block, over what was a very minor issue, if even an issue at all. StuRat 22:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
He did ask someone BEFORE he deleted it. You just didn't know about it. So no, it wasn't unilateral. pschemp | talk 23:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Really ? Who did he ask about the specific item before he deleted it ? Can you provide a link ? StuRat 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Not every conversation about this has taken place on Wikipedia Stu. The is no link. 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Then there is no proof that any such conversation ever existed, is there ? Please sign your posts. StuRat 07:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I take strong exception to the suggestion that only those with substantial RD experience can comment on its purpose and direction. But to assuage that criticism, I'll weigh in. I have previously been a substantial contributor at the Science RD, not so much anymore. Besides all the in-jokes about bay-gulls and such, I have found myself turned off by the rather chauvinist tone, whose most extreme form was seen in the thread (previously discussed here) about how a man could force his girlfriend into a sex act she was not comfortable with. I would estimate that at least a third of the "medical" questions there concern male genitals. Let me be clear that I don't propose censoring the RD. I do propose that all RD contributors consider that people from a wide variety of backgrounds see it, and that they address topics with appropriate maturity. --Ginkgo100 talk 23:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's say this applied to you. We will say a new position is created, called Admin_Judge. They don't do anything but criticize the actions of Admins, delete and undo what Admins do, and threaten and/or block Admins. They make up their own rules for how Admins must behave, the Admins themselves no longer have any say. If they "discuss" things with Admins, it's only telling the Admins how it's going to be, they don't actually listen to anything an Admin says, no matter how thoroughly the actions of the Admin_Judges are shown to be bad for Wikipedia and a violation of policy. Is this something you would find pleasant ? Would you remain willing to work as an Admin ? StuRat 06:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey thats a damn good idea Stu: an Admin behaviour review committee made up from non Admins only! Why not put it on the PumP?--Light current 06:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you are forgetting that I have been an editor for a long time, and an admin for a very short time. --Ginkgo100 talk 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying you haven't yet been an Admin long enough to be corrupted by the power ? StuRat 16:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
As for chauvinistic questions, we now have two feminists as Ref Desk regulars, one sexually liberal and one conservative, so that should provide balance there. I would suspect that most Ref Desk readers are young males, however, as surfing the web in general is mostly a young male thing. So, we would expect to get lots of questions relevant to young males, who would be uncomfortable asking them in an environment that wasn't anonymous. I think it's a good thing to be able to answer questions like "Is it unhealthy if a male doesn't ejaculate regularly". Note that this question might have been asked by a girl, who is being pressured by her b/f into sex using this argument. I have suggested a separate Sexuality Ref Desk, however, to shield the squeamish from such questions and answers. StuRat 06:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree this question is appropriate for the RD, which is why I stated "Let me be clear that I don't propose censoring the RD." Rather, I asked that this type of question be approached in a mature fashion. And very often, they are handled appropriately already. Unfortunately, there are also occasions in which this does not seem to be the case. --Ginkgo100 talk 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't think it's possible to get 100% compliance with any rule, however. This doesn't mean that we should start deleting comments and blocking users for those few "violations", however, as some Admins want to do. StuRat 14:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem of which would be that one doesn't know what might get deleted unless it's done consistently according to a clear set of rules about which some sort of consensus has been reached. One central problem is that it is difficult to keep track of what is being deleted. The histories of the ref desks are way too long to dig through. If some people start to delete stuff it might seem to others that that is normal behaviour. Including others who don't know or understand the rules (if any). And that will (not 'may' but 'will') result in people deleting stuff they don't like. Coming up with a way to keep tabs on deletions is something that should be done first. We need that at the ref desk anyway, because people probably do it already, considering how much vandalism there is on Wikipedia. Encouraging them by giving the wrong example is a very bad idea. DirkvdM 11:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I wonder how one could technically track deletions, though. Perhaps any edit where the result is, say more than 100 bytes shorter than the starting length ? That wouldn't be perfect, but better than no check, I suppose. A "D" could appear in front of such edits in the history, where the "N" for new or "m" for minor edit goes now. We could also allow editors to self identify deletions as they do for minor edits. I wouldn't expect them to do so consistently, though, so the size change check would also be needed. StuRat 12:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Justanother's input[edit]

I missed the bulk of this discussion but as a regular on the subject board I want to make my feelings known.

Most importantly: While I appreciate SCZenz' desire to improve wikipedia and his efforts to do so, I strongly oppose arbitrary censorship. I, personally, am more than willing to put up with a *possibly irrelevant* penis joke (though it actually did have some relevance) in order to protect my own right to make comments as I see fit (fit as being relevant to the discussion at hand although perhaps not popular with some wikipedians).

Other than that, I think that many, if not most, of the contributors are experienced wikipedians and are perfectly capable of policing the desk and dealing with disruptive influences. But it important to remember that one reason many of us like to hang out there is the jokes and banter. Only a part of the reason to be sure but part nonetheless. The intellectual stimulation and, often the tangents, have value to us. If they don't then we can ignore them.

Also, I think that article talk page rules are not analoguous and do not apply. The purpose of article talk pages is to develop an article that complies with wikipedia policy; it is important that they honor those policies. The purpose of the reference desk is to either answer a question or steer the questioner toward the answer. The postings there, especially on the misc. desk, will often consist of original research and may not cite their sources. That is entirely appropriate. The Reference Desks are their own beasts and perhaps need additional policy developed. If such policy needs developing it must be developed through the normal review process.

--Justanother 14:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen's proposal[edit]

I note that User:DirkvdM is down to ascribing a "hidden agenda" to SCZenz, and User:StuRat to assuring us that the views of admins are of no account, since admins "would support one another against the user community" anyway. (I don't think he can read ANI much.) Nevertheless I want to register my opinion that this is a matter suitable for handling at this board, and not the kind of thing Thatcher or SCZenz have any need to involve ArbCom in. And I support SCZenz's actions. It goes without saying that the "user community" involved must feel free to request arbitration if they see handling via ANI as inherently unjust. If everything has been said—and having just read the entire thread, I don't see how it could possibly have not been—is it perhaps time for somebody to put one of those snazzy colored frames and stop-talking headings on the thread? Bishonen | talk 03:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Geogre's view[edit]

On the strange wrestling over talk vs. article pages, the reference desk is a project page. Project pages are like AN, AN/I, AfD, RFA, etc., so that explains the mystery of how they can require signatures, allow some wobbling toward chat, and yet be subject to the rules of staying on topic. Ultimately, we're back to the problem of Internet discussion in general: it takes two people to go off topic. If no one answers, applauds, or condemns the silly jokes and chat, if no one tries to answer the troll questions, then it all stops. When, however, two or three people have the same interest in chat and/or play, then their habits can overwhelm the original purpose, and that's when it becomes appropriate for the other folks to show up and 1) urge, 2) cajole, 3) enforce topicality.

The RD pages have always been prone to "christians are stupid i think dont you" questions and "fags is going to hell" questions, as well as "I am taking a trivia test in a bar and I need to know who invented World War II." These questions invite smart aleck responses or adolescent banter. For the most part, the participants have an internal sense of when they're going off the beam, and therefore trolling questions tend to get no answers. However, because everyone is always new at Wikipedia, eventually those questions will find their own level, attract offended and amused and bored folks.

I agree with the rest of the site showing up to ask RD to stay on topic, but I think it's bad that we've gotten to the point where it becomes adversarial. Generally, RD has stopped chasing the bouncing balls without adversity when a gentle reminder comes in. Like chatter, belligerance takes two sides and bad timing. I think the intentions of David and SC are both pure. The way forward is for more folks to go to RD and keep an eye on when we start frolicking in the meadow and gently reminding each other that we need to stay on task. If it's fifty voices instead of a campaign, the chances of offense are lower. Geogre 13:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Another late comment[edit]

My view is that there is a need to keep the Reference Desk from going off-topic and discussing irrelevant stuff. There should be a set of agreed guidelines put up for review to attain consensus, and then the opprobrium of those that don't like this won't fall on one user. If this feels too much like instruction creep, make it a general set of guidelines covering any 'desk' or 'noticeboard' (eg, WP:AN, WP:HD, WP:RD). I also think that any admins and users regularly involved at the RD should talk to each other to get changes in the culture of 'jokes' and such like stuff. But those admin regulars at the RD should not get involved in blocking to 'control' the RD. Instead, they should post a notice elsewhere (WP:ANI?), asking an uninvolved admin to judge when a block may be required. Carcharoth 16:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for additional help[edit]

Just want to echo the comments of those who've asked for additional experienced editors to help out at the RD. There's a bit of an ongoing clash there, with people arguing that it's more important to not have censorship than it is to keep the reference desk useful. A couple blocks have been given for people making junvenile sex jokes there, and these blocks have drawn considerable criticism from some reference desk regulars. . Let's all remember that the reference desk needs to be extra friendly to new editors and the general public. More help is appreciated. Friday (talk) 01:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, why are you posting here? We are discussing things quite nicely on Talk:Reference Desk. Do you feel you are losing the argument?--Light current 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I feel that some unfortunate things are happening there. Some good things are happening there too, and I want to swing the balance toward the good. Friday (talk) 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
We're already discusing a consensus to ban sex jokes. As for there being a clash, we are managing to build a consensus for what is and what is not allowed, quite quickly. I would say half of the issues have now been decided. At this rate, we should be done in under a week. And everyone wants to keep the Ref Desk useful, that's not an issue at all. StuRat 01:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Friday, that's the first time I've seen anything close to:
"it's more important to not have censorship than it is to keep the reference desk useful"
I must say it looks a bit like you're framing a debate topic out of a discussion. Everyone involved in the discussion wants to keep the RD useful. The question is HOW to make it MORE useful. Once again I must say I'm disappointed, this new twist is polarizing. -THB 10:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Please don't let the talk over there spill over to here. If Friday wants experienced users, WP:ANI is not the right place to ask. I suggest the Village Pump. Carcharoth 10:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand- I only posted it here because it's somewhat related to the existing thread. Friday (talk) 15:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks, harassment, baiting and pestering by user:Oden[edit]

User Oden (talk · contribs) has been recently involved exclusive in a controversial activity of challenging selected by him users attacking their images. I put aside for now the issue of the interpretation of the WP:FU policy as good people obviously disagree in good faith on the policy interpretation as well as the policy itself. However, even if one chooses to take upon himself such a sensitive task as implementing a policy for the good of Wikipedia, such task can only be taken with utmost sensitivity to other editors. With a couple of other editors joining what many perceived as a disruptive crusade in whose process the worst attitudes were displayed, several editors opened a Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Abu_badali against one of such crusaders. Notably, the RfC is not about the policy or implementing an unpopular policy but about the unacceptable attitude and abusive Harassment.

Shortly after, user:Oden posted to the RfC this disgusting attack directed at all the involved editors bringing all sorts of unrelated issues that had no relation to what the RfC was about thus substituting tackling the issue with attacking the opponents. And hour or so ago Admin:Khoikhoi (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) who was not involved in the dispute in any way gave Oden a (rather soft IMO) warning reminding of WP:NPA and WP:Harassment policies. Reaction of user:Oden was this barrage of irregular stuff.

When I commented on his response as being lacking the substance, Oden responded by a series of entries [39][40][41] where he baits Khoikhoi and brings up another barrage of irrelevant stuff (see also WP:DFTT#Pestering).

Third party input is requested. --Irpen 07:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment:
In a RfC the topic of discussion is the editor who is subject to the RfC, but it is also relevant and sometimes even necessary to discuss the past contributions of the other editors contributing to the RfC.
  • WP:NPA states: "Remarks describing an editor's actions and made without involving their personal character should not be construed as personal attacks."
  • WP:STALK states: "This does not include [..] reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason."
  • Finally, WP:RFC states: "An RfC may bring close scrutiny on all involved editors".
However, I do agree that outside of a RfC such comments would be considered inappropriate, since talk pages in Wikipedia are provided in order to discuss improvements in an article (which might be why User:Khoikhoi reacted so strongly as to actually issue a warning).
Final note: User:Irpen's comment on my talk page (at 6:29 UTC) came after I left my first response and second response on User:Khoikhoi's talk page (4:29 UTC and 6:04 UTC). I must be very talented indeed to be able to see into the future!
User:Khoikhoi has as of yet not responded. I will leave a message on his talk page urging him to comment here. --Oden 10:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This "response" illustrates the user well on top of the original diffs above. Please check his "comments" at the RfC linked above and match them with his response (along with this protracted baiting of Khoikhoi who rightfully warned the user). It is easy to tell between trolling and proper discussions. --Irpen 10:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Khoikhoi (who is an admin/sysop) has as of yet not responded. From my first response at 4:29 UTC until now he has made almost 40 edits, so apparently he's online. I have stated on his talk page that his failure to respond stands in sharp contrast to the serious tone in his warning where he threatened me with "blocks with the length being increased each time" (diff). His first signal was that he was to busy to respond (diff), his second that he was too lazy (diff). --Oden 13:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Oden has asked me to provide a comment here. When I saw Oden mention my name in his list of monsters and vandalizers I was quite insulted. I agree with User:Irpen and User:khoikhoi that User:Oden's comments were highly inappropiate. Dionyseus 18:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I really can't see that Odin has done anything out of line here. He mentioned that we'd all been blocked before, and that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Not a particularly helpful comment, but not a "disgusting attack" either. Note that I was one of the editors mentioned by Odin in his so-called "disgusting attack", and I just can't find any way to be offended. This is really a tempest in a teacup. I guess Odin should doublecheck his comments in such a delicate situation to make sure he won't offend the thin-skinned. But really, Irpen's comments above seem at least as provocative as Odin's. I think all involved should take a deep breath, assume good faith, and get over it. – Quadell (talk) (random) 18:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't asked to comment, but I shall. Oden has been contributing to the RfC noted above by Irpen, however his contributions haven't been especially helpful. While most editors involved in the discussion have been obviously frustrated with each other and the debate has been quite heated at times, Oden's comments haven't really been about the RfC at hand so much as about policy. For example, he posted a lengthy screed on the RfC talk page about how the RfC has turned into a policy debate, however pretty much the only comments he's made that aren't an attempt to "call out" Irpen have been repeated posts about policy. I don't know if it's intentional or not but he isn't really doing much except to stoke the flames. User:Sebbeng 03:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I find his comments on RfC to be offensive and incivil, bordering on trolling (comparing block logs, yeah that gives a true measure... <_<). It violated quite a few basic policies and should imho be dealt with accordingly. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 00:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to User:Grafikm_fr's comment:
  • WP:NPA (policy) states: "Remarks describing an editor's actions and made without involving their personal character should not be construed as personal attacks."
  • WP:STALK (guideline) states: "This does not include [..] reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason."