Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive329

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Unapproved bot[edit]

User:AxwynBot. It doesn't look like it's an approved bot, it doesn't look like JoanneB has edited recently, and its edits are a bit odd. I went ahead an blocked it. I'm not missing something glaringly obvious, am I? -- RG2 10:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeesh, that doesn't look like anybody up to any good. Since JoanneB didn't tag it as their bot, I don't think we can rely on that as an identifier. Somebody with a grudge, maybe? Clearly they have at least some experience on wiki(s). – Luna Santin (talk) 10:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
JoanneB has confirmed that the bot is not hers. [1]. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 18:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm rather surprised that my name is still known and used by those vandals, I think I'll simply take it as a 'compliment'. Thanks to all who acted upon this and the previous occurences! Rule of thumb: if any bot claims to be me or acting on my behalf, it isn't. --JoanneB 18:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh[edit]


Rush Limbaugh is under substantial editing from IP users with some degree of edit warring. Some makes sense, but the article is fairly unstable. I suggest semi-protection for a while. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Copied to WP:RFPP; user notified on talk page. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Semi-protected by The-G-Unit-Boss. Hut 8.5 20:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring consensus[edit]

On United Kingdom there is the re-emergance of and edit war over the inclusion of the Ulster Banner on the Symbols section of the article. Consensus was reached last month to include the flag as the most appropriate symbol of Northern Ireland. A footnote explains the use of the flag.

Recently users have taken to removing it again. User:John who was one of the achitects of the consensus last time has asked me to report the incident here. I hope you can help. Biofoundationsoflanguage (talk) 16:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This noticeboard is not designed to assist editors in content disputes. Please pursue dispute resolution if you cannot find common ground with fellow editors in that article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe an admin more familiar with the dispute can apply this cluestick? east.718 at 20:31, November 20, 2007

User:StrengthOfNations and "friends"[edit]

Resolved: Sockpuppets blocked indef, puppetmaster User:StrengthOfNations blocked 24h. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2

Hey there. I'm itching to block Stayman Apple (talk · contribs) and Control Hazard (talk · contribs) as obvious sock/meatpuppets of StrengthOfNations (talk · contribs).

Stayman Apple has been editing a very unlikely set of articles in common with StrengthOfNations, and in order to bolster "support" for his position. (Health Ranger, History and use of instant-runoff voting in the United States, The Yakyuken Special as well as a number of talk pages).

Control Hazard is a recent SPA created to shore up the AfD of Health Ranger. Also, by some "strange" coincidence, intersects with StrengthOfNations in NTFS. Both socks are obviously familiar with WP process and terminology from the start, so are not newbies.

It's about as clear-cut as it gets so I don't believe it useful to add to the SSP backlog, but I did not want to act in the dark since I have been involved in the Health Ranger AfD. I haven't yet blocked the puppeteer, or his socks. — Coren (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

They're very obviously the same person. I've indef blocked User:Control Hazard since it was used to game an AfD. Non-abusive sockpuppets are tolerated so I haven't blocked User:Stayman Apple -- yet. If you can clarify how this account was used abusively, it'll share the fate of a Thanksgiving turkey at the hands of a novice cook. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2
User:Stayman Apple has done reverts to versions of his article written by his puppeteer (History and use of instant-runoff voting in the United States is the obvious case), and obviously intended to be seen as two different persons in the Health Ranger Afd— even though he didn't !vote twice. — Coren (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Since we are constantly reminded that AfD is not a vote, participating in an AfD discussion with sockpuppets is abuse, whether or not they put Keep or Delete in bold before their comments. --barneca (talk) 19:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Zot. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)



This user should probably be banned, he has been vandalizing the SpongeBob SquarePants since March. He has already been warned many times, see his talk page, and see some of his edits: 1, 2 and 3 and take a look at his offensive user page. Because of this he seems to be just a bored kid at school, altough not all of his edits are vandalism only the ones in the spongebob article. -Yamanbaiia (talk) 20:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

He deserves a block, since he is only on the SpongeBob article to prove that it sucks, it doesn't belong here. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 20:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Blocked. Offensive userpage deleted. IrishGuy talk 21:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Wrong namespace - Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story[edit]

Hi, Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story was in the Wikipedia name space for its entire existence at Wikipedia:Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story, apparently from the talk comments there to "incubate" or grow. It seems like its probably notable enough to stand on its own, and it seemed wrong to isolate it from article space scrutiny there for notability and possible AfD. I moved it to where it seems like it should be. Posting here just to make sure this was correct, and to give the article a little scrutiny in case it isn't up to notability snuff. Was moving it to article space correct? I'll reverse if there is some special dispensation for this article...? • Lawrence Cohen 21:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Note - actually, I just noticed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story. Should this be deleted, then? Or DRV? • Lawrence Cohen 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't look like WP:CSD#G4 material to me at this time. If you think it still merits deletion, I recommend AFD. GRBerry 21:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh no, I don't, myself, want to AfD it. I just stumbled across that article and wanted to make sure the move between name spaces was fine, and to give the article a little exposure in case anyone else thought it merited AfD or DRV. • Lawrence Cohen 21:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Update I'm a bit confused by this. Mikkalai (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) moved the article on this independent film back to Wikipedia:Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story and deleted the main article space page for the third time. I'm not quite understanding what reason this independent film article has to be in the Wikipedia space. • Lawrence Cohen 00:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue has also undergone a deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 July 13, with the general expectation to wait until the film released. The main issues are notability (not enough interest generated yet; it is not; like, a forthcoming Steven Spielberg film) and wikipedia:Verifiability. The current article in its form cannot be in the main space yet. You may try and write a short text basing strictly what is published in sources acceptable for wikipedia (notice that blogs and wikis are not valid sources for wikipedia). `'Míkka>t 00:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I moved it to the name space since I didn't understand why an article about an indy film was living in Wikipedia space; I wasn't endorsing it. I posted here for others to take a look since I wasn't sure if that move was a right call on my part. That deletion review endorsed it being deleted. Was there somewhere else that the community endorsed storing the article in the Wikipedia: name space instead of deleting it? • Lawrence Cohen 00:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
You don't need any endorsement. It is not part of encyclopedia: it is an internal wikipedia document about wikipedia-related affairs. There is plenty of such stuff in Category:Wikipedia history. `'Míkka>t 00:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've nominated it for deletion. Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Truth in Numbers: The Wikipedia Story. I really don't think its a good idea to host a page about an independent film in the Wikipedia name space. It should either go in the main article space with all the other articles on films, or nowhere. And it appears its a recreation of a validly deleted and endorsed deletion. Please let me know if this is the wrong way to address this. Thanks. • Lawrence Cohen 00:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Eyes on User:V-Dash[edit]

Could we get some more eyes on V-Dash (talk · contribs)'s userpage and the users whon edit it? It's been under attack recently by a group of users who are apparantly trying to get his 3RR block extended by impersonating him. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 22:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Anti-semitic userpage[edit]

Resolved: All is calm... since he's gone... -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 23:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:NouvusOrdoSeclorum. Is this a personal attack, since it isn't directed at anybody in person, and if not, what are the guidelines applying to userpages? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, now they've posted this on my talkpage diff. Indef block? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Silent block... Holy block... -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 23:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Been getting into the holiday spirits, have we? Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd've tried to twist Overnight Celebrity, but it's impossible to type in a way that signifies 150 words per minute. Besides, he corrupted Rudolph, so why not corrupt Silent Night? -Jéské (Blah v-_^v) 02:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Indef block for that. No need for second chances after that sort of behaviour. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


Resolved: Spammmer squashed SirFozzie (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what these edits by Durzmaniac (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) do, but intuition tells me it's not nice. Could someone experienced please investigate. Thanks. (talk) 23:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like spam. Warned. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 23:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks like more than spam, considering the attempts to run a java script on the pages, but I don't read java, so I don't know what the edits would have done. They should be warned about trying to hijack article pages, regardless of whether it's to spam or for any other purpose. Corvus cornixtalk 23:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't read java either, but I think it's supposed to get whoever opens the page to the URL at the bottom of the script.02:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlohcierekim (talkcontribs)
He's stopped, but I left a fairly blunt warning on his talk page. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 02:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a script designed to increase apparent visits to a click-through ad banner every time the page was visited. Basically it was a failed attempt to generate revenue on the back of WP. FYI php_ads is a banner ad rotation script. --WebHamster 02:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool-- for him. I should have recognized that. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 03:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I blocked him indefinitely. Only edits are that? Spammers should be given a thousand cuts, dipped in lemon juice.. and from there we get UNPLEASANT... SirFozzie (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


Resolved: Submitted for oversight TigerShark (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if one or more admins could cast a glance over these deleted contributions. Given the possibility of this being personally identifiable information relating to a real case, I have deleted the edits from the articles. Does anybody think that further action is required? Cheers TigerShark (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Oversee 'em. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 00:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Oversight required. Just email them the deleted contribs above and later leave a message on the talk page of the blocked IP, indicating that oversight has happened (to explain the block without even deleted edits!) - Alison 00:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I thought so too, but thanks for the input. Cheers TigerShark (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal information posted by anon[edit]

Resolved: Submitted for oversight

Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 03:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

When looking at the Help Desk I found that this anon had posted some persoanl information about a nonwikipedian as seen here, the personal information also contains what appears to be a legal threat against this nonwikipedian. Leebo removed the p-info but it's still in history. VivioFateFan (Talk, Sandbox) 01:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Please submit this information to WP:RFO. east.718 at 02:55, November 21, 2007

Give us your fucking money[edit]

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an objectionable banner for donation on a user page. As of today, the discussion continues. Reason for this update [2] Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. For the archivebot, east.718 at 12:40, November 21, 2007 12:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an editor's behavior of which the editor in question has responded. As of yesterday, the discussion continues. Reason for this update [3] Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. For the archivebot, east.718 at 12:41, November 21, 2007 12:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


After receiving multiple NPOV warnings on his talk page regarding repeatedly making POV edits (see some examples here, here, here, here) this user has now applied warning templates to my page in complete bad faith (diffs here and here). Several other editors have noted that this was wholly improper and in bad faith (examples here and here). I have issued a third NPOV warning for continued POV-pushing, and I have instructed the editor that additional POV pushing and/or bad-faith actions will result in a formal RFC on his conduct. I thought it would be best if I kept ANI up on the situation before it goes to all that (as suggested by other editors). Thanks. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And what administrative action needs to be taken here? east.718 at 09:12, November 20, 2007
I'm not sure if/that any is needed at all. I figured it'd be wise to go ahead and mention it for a few reasons... one, I'm not an administrator and don't presume to know what actions are appropriate. Two, I recognize that I'm not infallable, and despite other editors' support (referenced above) I figured it's always wiser to ask for help or review from ANI than it is to barrel forward without seeking counsel. Finally, if my interpretation is correct and my actions thus far are proper then perhaps words from an uninvolved administrator would help quell this before it has to go to RFC. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you want WP:WQA. Relata refero (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I want to say I did not put the warning tag on his page in bad faith. I tried to have a discussion with him on the talk pages, but unfortunately have not heard any response from him. Because I didn't hear a response, I just removed what he said. He then proceded to issue me a 2nd tag. That is when I issued him a tag because I felt that he was POV pushing in the Politics of Bill O'Reilly page. I have officially given reason why I felt his editing of the article was wrong. Hopefully this time he will adress the issue so we can make the article a good and accurate one. Arnabdas (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:E104421 and VartanM[edit]

Edit warring on multiple articles


  • Reverts the article to a previous contested version with edit summary:(added a new section on cultural life.)[4]
  • reverts again with edit summary:(rv.: please, do not remove the sourced information. the new section on cultural life is informative. you deleted the cited refereces in other sections, too.)[5]
  • When I added just the sourced stuff he was adding [6] he reverts again [7]

Turko-Persian tradition O talkpage posts to go along with the 3 reverts on this article.

  • Reverts the article claiming that the Ip address is User:Tajik[8]
  • When asked to use the talkpage to explain his edit he reverts again[9]
  • When explained that the information his adding is already there he reverts again [10]

Now I understand that he did not violate the 3RR, but his being disruptive by adding controversial material and refusing to understand why the information was removed in the first place. We have been discussing the Shusha article for about a week now. 3 users are currently being checkusered[11]. Most of the users editing the article are limited to 1RR per Arbcom restrictions. His actions and uncompromisable reverts are just adding fuel to the fire and are not helpful at all. --VartanM (talk) 10:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I should alsow mention that he was previously(8 months ago) indef blocked for edit warring by Dmcdevit[12] VartanM (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

    • For the Shusha article, i provided the direct quotations into the talk page [13]. For the Turko-Persian tradition article, the necessary explanation done in the edit summary [14], since the removed paragraph is not related with the article, more important, the cited references of that paragraph is not related neither with the article nor with the paragraph at all. They are totally irrelevant. These are also explained in the edit summary. On the other hand, i reverted User:Tajik, per Dmcdevit's comments:[15] and [16].

Note: See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/E104421-Tajik

  • VartanM, on the other hand, deleted Encyclopædia Britannica's Qajar Dynasty and Azerbaijan references [17]. I reverted just because of the deletion of cited references as i pointed out in the edit summary. I'm not interested in his conflicts with other users, but the deletion of cited references do not seem to be an acceptable manner. In addition, i did my first edit to the article in my wiki-life today. At first, i was planning to create a new article on Sileh rug, for this reason, i checked the Shusha article, since ... Those sileh from the Caucasus may have been woven in the vicinity of Shusha (from "sileh rug", Encyclopædia Britannica, Academic Online Edition, 2007. That's it. I'm so surprised for the impolite behaviour of VartanM who even accused me of disruption after my first edit to the article. I'm wondering how he describes the deletion of cited references. He does not warned me about the previous issues, or his conflicts with other users, but just accused me of disruption here in the WP:AN/I. He could post a message to my talk page on his objections. If he would do so, i would discuss/re-consider my edits as well. That would be more simple than carring the case here. Actually, that's the procedure adviced at the top of the WP:AN/I page: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you take it up with them on their user talk page." Anyways, i'm ready to answer if more explanation is needed. Regards. E104421 (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Revert of POV edits by E104421 was perfectly justified. He only removed deletion of sourced info from the article and addition of controversial claims by a group of users. It is no more disruptive than all the edit warring that was done by certain users (VartanM included) to keep the POV claims in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 11:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, VartanM provides inaccurate info that editors involved in edit warring in that article are restricted by parole. Most of them are not, i.e. VartanM, Verjakette and Bassenius, and they are clearly taking advantage of that. Grandmaster (talk) 11:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this the sort of issue that should be handled at dispute resolution? What admin action is being requested here - synopsis version this time, please. Natalie (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The IP address E104421 reverted as banned user Tajik is - surprise - banned user Tajik. He's certainly been edit-warring, and will be blocked if he keeps it up, but reverting banned users doesn't count. Picaroon (t)
This report was not about the content, it was about a previously indefinatly banned user(edit warring) simultaneously edit warring on 2 different articles. Thanks anyway. VartanM (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • In the Shusha article, there is a content dispute, in the Turko-Persian relation article, there were blind reverts by Tajik and Beh-nam, since both of the users did not checked the paragraph with its cited references. If they were, they would remove that paragraph. The cited references were not related with that paragraph. That's clearly explained in the edit summary. There were no edit-war at all. VartanM tries to exaggerate issue by introducing artificial reasons and skipping the steps of my unblock and the decision of ArbCom. He's trying to overshadow his deletion of the referenced material by my blog-log. Yes, i was blocked many times because of my conflicts with Tajik, but ArbCom, at the end, closed the case without giving me any extra ban. On the other hand, after Tajik's block, i never get blocked (since 1 April 2007), since the conflicts automatically ended up with the decision of ArbCom. Humans make mistakes, but judging people all the time with their mistakes in the past is not fair. VartanM does not answers the points i suggested above but tries to change the topic to my previous conflicts with Tajik. That case (E104421-Tajik) was closed by ArbCom. Regards. E104421 (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM has been edit warring at Shusha and Khachen prior to that, pushing POV, removing sources [18], [19], [20], and even removing fully explained POV and dispute tags [21], [22] when there is an obvious dispute on the talk page for months, without providing proper explanations or achieving consensus. Just take a look at this one revert over me, see how much sourced material User:VartanM removes ([23]) inserting POV and one source instead. Because of User:VartanM, User:MarshallBagramyan, User:Andranikpasha, User:Fedayee, User:Eupator teamed up at Khachen, Shusha, Nagorno-Karabakh, Nagorno-Karabakh War, and several other pages, it's impossible to add any reference or have any neutrality whatsoever. VartanM and Andranikpasha remove even references to Oxford scholar and expert in the topic arguing about neutrality. I hope someone will again take a neutral look into these two pages, Shusha and Khachen, because it seems like User:VartanM, a prior ArbCom participant, can violate Wikipedia NPOV policy, assume bad faith, become assigned as a guide to another User:Andranikpasha in doing the same without any restriction. And now, of course, VartanM feels free to report anyone even trying to edit these pages, ignoring WP:OWN. If anyone for any reason felt offended by anything I said above, please, accept my apologies. Atabek (talk) 20:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
WOW you still haven't let that go. How old are those diffs? Lighten up a bit and AGF VartanM (talk) 20:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Heh, poor E104421's block log is also old, but you keep on accusing him for his past conflicts with Tajik (especially, on nomadic empires related topics). Here the content dispute is on Shusha (Cultural life of the city) article. Best. E104421 (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Why are you speaking in a third person? Are you not the E104421? VartanM (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Sorry :) I'm not a native speaker. I tried to joke but my poor English... E104421 (talk) 21:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate you trying to bring humor into this, but this was probable cause to request a checkuser. VartanM (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


E104421 violated 3RR on Shusha.

  • 1st Reversion as of 00:45, November 20, 2007 [24]
  • 2nd Reversion as of 01:15, November 20, 2007 [25]
  • 3rd Reversion as of 02:24, November 20, 2007 [26]
  • 4th Reversion as of 12:43, November 20, 2007 [27]

4 reversions within 12 hours. VartanM (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

  • That's not correct. Check my contributions again: Here is my first edit to the Shusha article in my wiki-life: [28] and its spell-check [29] immediately after the first.
  • 1st revert: [30] 09:15, 20 November 2007
  • 2nd revert: [31] 10:24, 20 November 2007
  • So-called 3rd revert: [32] 20:43, 20 November 2007

I already wrote rv in edit summaries for my reverts. I'm wondering where you're trying to get with all these claims. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Please, note that in my edits, i restored the deleted sourced information and cited references as can be clearly seen here [33]. I still do not understand why VartanM ignores these cited references. Basically, a source is valid unless its falsified. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The first edit you made was a revert disguised as an addition of material. Revert doesn't have to be reverting to your own version. VartanM (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, the edits before and in-between the above were your reverts removing referenced material added by the above mentioned user. So clearly instead of engaging in constructive discussion, you're engaged in disruptive edit warring and POV pushing as was the case at Khachen. I shall remind you that you were a party to recent ArbCom [34], which specifically states that:
  • Editors with a national background are encouraged to edit from a Neutral Point of View, presenting the point of view they have knowledge of through their experience and culture without aggressively pushing their particular nationalist point of view by emphasizing it or minimizing or excluding other points of view.
Now please, assume good faith rather than targeting contributors and removing sourced material, and remind yourself of the associated remedy in this ArbCom case: [35]
Thanks. Atabek (talk) 23:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, I was very active in the talkpage of the said article requesting justification for the reverts. He mostly ignored the talkpage and is yet to address the points raised. VartanM (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I provided the quotations from Encyclopedia Britannica into the talk page [36], but you are just interested in the removal of sourced information [37]. In addition, you never explained in detail why you removed the sourced material. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This is still a content dispute, and ANI is not the appropriate place to settle content disputes. Please try one of the suggestions listed in Wikipedia: Dispute resolution. If you wish to report people for edit warring, please use the 3RR noticeboard. If you want to keep hashing this out, I suggest doing so on one of your talk pages, not here. Natalie (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Natalie, I think this dispute will occasionally end up on this page, simply because every time User:VartanM violations are brought up, it's someone else who gets blocked or paroled, and User:VartanM continues edit warring, pushing POV and targeting any other user involved in article against his POV. Ignoring such disruptive behavior is empowering one contributor against others, and essentially violating neutrality of Wikipedia. VartanM participated in the most recent ArbCom, as one of the main participants, continued edit warring in articles afterwards, was warned twice, and yet as opposed to many other users with similar or lesser violations is not placed under parole but continues using his 3RR advantage and warring on the articles. Will this ever come to an end, by moving this discussion away from ANI to talk pages? Atabek (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

For once and all, please make it loud and clear.[edit]

1. How many days, weeks, months we should allow to provide reliable sources for article like Operation Hush which is not even tagged as unreferenced? 2. And if anybody can remove even SD, PROD tag, then what is the use of new page patrollers? Why should we waste time in placing tags like unreferenced, notability etc? One admin just advised me to take article to AFD. But here I saw that a new user who has no contributions at all voted to 'keep' it. Why should I waste time to take to AFD where anybody can vote using sockpuppets? Thanks. sharara 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Being unsourced is not a reason for speedy deletion. If an article remains unsourced for a significant amount of time, and especially if cleanup / PROD tags bring no improvement, the article should be submitted to AfD. Since AfD is not a vote, the closing admin will disregard spurious contributions. Sandstein (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Note that many articles have 'external links' that are actually references, for instance Operation Hush. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 10:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the duration of 'significant amount of time'? And how would you know which article is unsourced if 'unreferenced, cleanup, PROD' tags are removed? Anybody can remove it. I can go on showing unsourced articles dating back to 2003 and even before it. Is it responsibility of new page patrollers and admin to search sources and add to the articles? Thanks.sharara 16:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ideally when someone creates an article, they would include sources. Obviously this doesn't always happen though. Any article that has no sources cited or relevant external links that verify the subject can be considered unsourced and probably should be tagged as such. If someone is removing "unsourced" or "cleanup" tags without actually addressing the problem or explaining the removal, I'd say you'd be fairly justified in adding them back. PROD is different; if someone removes it, that is it. At that point the article needs to go to Articles for Deletion if you still wish to pursue deletion. As for who's responsibility it is to source something, generally it is the creator's responsibility. Before simply nominating something for deletion though, it is always a good idea to do some due dilligence and look to see if it can be verified. If it can, contact the creator and request that they source their article, or just source it yourself. If it can't be sourced or notability can't be established, then deletion may be the correct next step.--Isotope23 talk 17:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Yep. The question isn't so much "is it sourced" as "can it be sourced"? The article in questions appears to be on a verifiable subject. It may not be notable, and might be deleted at AFD, but it at least can be sourced (and I added a source to the article).--Isotope23 talk 16:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Sharara, you seem to have some confusion regarding the deletion process. Just keep in mind the following:

  • Please do not reinstate a prod tag after a user has removed it from an article. If you still feel an article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
  • Please do not issue vandalism warnings to users who remove prod tags. Prod removal is an acceptable Wikipedia procedure, and the author who removes a prod tag is not obligated to improve the article in any way. Again, once a prod tag has been removed, if you feel the article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
  • Please do not place db (speedy deletion) tags in article with personal motivations, such as "the author has removed a prod tag", or "this article is unreferenced", or "the subject of this article is not notable". These are not valid speedy deletion criteria. For a list of acceptable speedy deletion criteria, see WP:CSD.
  • Please note that AfD debates are not votes. This is a fundamental misconception that seems to make you want to avoid AfD at all costs, thereby resorting to inappropriate use of speedy and prod. If an AfD comment is recognised as spurious (for example, because it comes from a single-purpose account), it will just be ignored by a hopefully wise admin.

Thanks! --Nehwyn (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

AfD is not a cleanup procedure. Submitting an article for deletion because it's been around with no sources is liable to engender a great deal of drama. Corvus cornix (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question, "Is it responsibility of new page patrollers and admin to search sources and add to the articles?", is no. I might decide that the subject interests me and look for sources but on the other hand it might be so obscure that I have no idea where to begin looking for them. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 19:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks and other types of incivility on talk page[edit]

EliasAlucard (talk · contribs)
EliasAlucard has posted many personal insults, uncivil comments (including swearing), has used all-caps (yelling), and sometimes made his signatures appear as if he had a different username (making it look like someone else was posting the comment). I posted a warning about personal attacks on his talk page quite awhile ago, but it has had no effect. He also seems to reject the whole basis of Wikipedia, which is presentng facts supported by reliable sources. Here are just a few recent examples (although the problem goes back much further:

  1. Swearing and personal insults
  2. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
  3. Uncivil comment
  4. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
  5. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
  6. Signing a different name, so it looks like someone else was agreeing
  7. Unjustified personal insult
  8. Uncivil comments signed under a different name
  9. Uncivil comment
  10. Uncivil comment and all-caps yelling (Note: EliasAlucard's comment is the lower one)

There are several more examples, which can be seen by viewing EliasAlucard's edit history. Also, just to clarify, I have not noticed other editors making similar uncivil comments or personal insults towards EliasAlucard. Their comments have been based on content, not the individual.Spylab (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a content dispute which has gotten a little bit hot. There isn't much to do here, beyond giving him a brief note about civility. I'd do it, but he's been rather upset with me since I blocked him for 3RR a while back. --Haemo (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I'll give him a short note. He's skirting a bit of the civility edge, but it's nothing but a rather fervent content dispute. — Coren (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
If he's getting this upset, disengaging for awhile might be the best idea. Natalie (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to block (i.e. "disengage") me for this. I have been trying to explain something very basic to User:Spylab for over two weeks now. I've provided several reliable sources, yet he refuses to understand what I'm saying. Frankly, I am beginning to lose my patience. It seems like Spylab is more like trying to have it his way rather than understanding reasonable arguments based on scholarly sources. Even though I've presented numerous sources, corroborating several valid points I've made, he keeps pretending like I haven't brought any sources to the talk page and completely ignores these sources. This is very disingenuous of the guy. He's acting like a defiant child when he's refusing to accept the sources, rather than a professional editor. As for my signture, I wasn't trying to fool anyone. Anyone can see that it's me since it has the same style and everything. And I've even changed my signature on my own talk page. Don't run to WP:ANI every single time you can't have it your way on the talk pages. Christ man, what is this, the third or forth time you've been here complaining about me? You are abusing the purpose of WP:ANI, it is not for content disputes. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, for the record, Natalie is a very beautiful name ;) — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I wasn't suggesting a block - I was merely suggesting that you step away from whatever is frustrating you so much and do something else for a time. I've found that it's hard to make a good point when angry. Natalie (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't sound like a bad idea. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • If anyone's trying to get his own way it is EliasAlucard. As the quotes above show, he has been using bullying tactics in his campaign to promote original research and to to keep well-referenced material off of Wikipedia. He refuses to understand that on Wikipedia, his personal opinions do not trump the views of multiple reliable sources. Also, as you can see above, it is very confusing to the average Wikipedia reader when someone signs his comments with a different name; making it appear as if a different person wrote those comments.Spylab (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Morningside Clio (talk · contribs)[edit]

This user is involved in continuous heavy POV pushing on certain articles related to Israeli Palestinians, most notably Joseph Massad, Nadia Abu El Haj and Elias Chacour.

He uses weasel words and substantiation of biased statements, usually inserting them into Controversy sections of articles. In Joseph Massad for example, he uses direct quotes to substantiate claims of controversy, quoting blogs that call Massad "a bigoted nutcase" and "crackpot". These have been removed earlier but the user reinserts them shortly thereafter. The references provided to substantiate these quotes are mostly from sources that are not neutral on the Israel-Palestine issue (eg. here). References inserted by this user are never formatted properly, the user simply inserts the text of the link into the article. At times, such as revision 172643890 on Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society, these links are not accurate even if properly formatted. In addition, the Joseph Massad article is already tagged as having too many quotes for an encyclopedic article yet this user adds more quotes on most of his edits.

Another instance of what can be classified as POV is his repeated removal of a publication of the American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank Middle East Forum being placed after a link to the Middle East Quarterly in the Massad article, calling it inappropriate and highly political in the respective edit summaries. Yet, in Nadia Abu El Haj, after the name of Elia Zuriek, he inserts a sociologist who advocated boycotting all Israeli universities.

Trying to stay objective and neutral, I am of the opinion that his contributions are intended to promote a point of view rather that improve a particular Wikipedia article. A quick look at the formating and the aesthetic value of Joseph Massad, especially the Controversial views section, can attest to the disregard towards Wikipedia:Manual of Style in favour of expressing opinion. While the user is not guilty of explicit vandalism, it is becoming harder for other editors to contribute to any of the previously mentioned articles without getting involved in an edit/revert war with Morningside Clio.

P.S. I do realize the irony of criticizing somebody for not properly formating reference links in the same sentence in which I did not know how to link to a specific past revision. Thanks for understanding. SWik78 (talk) 18:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I left some notes in his talk page. Hopefully he will learn to be a useful contributor. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
So have I. Relata refero (talk) 07:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing but spam by[edit]

Hello, (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made around 20 edits since September, every one of them spam. He waits for a few days to evade his warnings, I would like to suggest a block, but I want someone else to provide an opinion. Thanks. 05:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked, with a note asking them to read and respond on their talk page. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


I have blocked this IP address for 1 week for repeatedly introducing unverified information into biographies of living people. This appears to be a static IP, as the edit pattern stretches back over a year. If this user resumes their editing pattern after the block ends, we may need to file an RfC.

Let me know if there are any concerns about this block. Cheers, Caknuck (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A full week might be a bit heavy for the first block (open to other opinions), but given their behavior and repeatedly ignoring warnings over time, I'd agree some administrative action was apparently in order. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Continued reversions by known sockpuppeteer[edit]

User: was previously confirmed as having used multiple accounts to contravene 3RR, including User:Bremskraft, User:IronAngelAlice, and User:Justine4all (see Checkuser request for User:IronAngelAlice; Archive 280, "Possible Sock Puppet"; Archive 304, "Confirmed sockpuppetry by User:IronAngelAlice). User: has since returned to making the same type of edits as before, violating 3RR once, and coming close to violating 3RR another time:

I also suspect that User: is the same user due to their history of having made edits to the same narrow range of articles as's other accounts (including Harry Reid. Jon Porter, Feminazi, Post-abortion syndrome, and David Reardon). also once signed a reply as Bremskraft [45] and has recently replied to comments directed at[46] -Severa (!!!) 08:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no 3RR violation. The David Reardon links occur over a period of more than 24 hours. The user is engaged in talk page discussion, while one of the reverters, LCP, is not. All three users will be cautioned to slow down, but strictly there is no policy violation and I am averse to blocking for not-yet-3RR while the user is taking it to the talk page. As for the Spain mention, I can see how it's on-topic. You haven't taken the discussion to the user's talk page, so it's a bit premature to complain about it here.
It would be nice if you noted, when you implied ongoing sockpuppetry, that (as noted in archive 325) this user is not banned and is not evading blocks. The IronAngelAlice account's block has expired and the user is welcome to edit. They have access to two IPs (probably home and work), but I don't see the IPs being used to circumvent policy. ··coelacan 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Johnny Sutton and Ignacio Ramos edit war[edit]

EliminatorJR has protected the pages. Caknuck (talk) 14:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If someone would be nice enough to page protect both of these pages, as both are involved in ongoing edit wars involving the same parties. Thanks Brimba (talk) 14:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

You should take that to Requests for page protection. -Yamanbaiia (talk) 14:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please do that in future, I have protected both pages for a week, though, in an attempt to calm down the edit-warring, sockpuppetry and incivility. ELIMINATORJR 14:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong personal attack by Nergaal (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)[edit]

Resolved: user warned ··coelacan 16:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Nergaal thinks my POV is "a POV formed after a long brainwash by soviet propaganda" and that I have a "severe impedement of [my] rational thougt(sic!) process" diff. Is this kind of language accepted on wikipedia?Anonimu (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The user has been warned for personal attacks. Hopefully that will be the end of it. ··coelacan 16:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


This very long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about a proposed banning as an editor. The editor in question has written a response. As of today, the discussion continues. Reason for this update [47] Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. east.718 at 03:02, November 22, 2007 03:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

King James I of England[edit]

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an article semi-protection or protection. As of today, the discussion continues. One of the major editors in the dispute is blocked and cannot respond. Reason for this update [48] Chergles (talk)

I think you've put this in the wrong section? You probably want the section below - just down there <points downwards>. Carcharoth (talk)

Thread has died. east.718 at 03:01, November 22, 2007 03:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Page semi-protected again[edit]

I see that WJBscribe (talk · contribs) has been edit-warring on this board with IPs (apparently over criticism of a protection action of his regarding Durova's ArbCom candidacy question page) and has semi-protected this noticeboard, shutting down all IPs from posting here. Once again, this gives the appearance of using admin tools in a dispute. Rather than continually edit-warring and protecting the page, wouldn't it better to answer the concern (if it has any basis) or simply ignore it (if it doesn't)? Videmus Omnia Talk 15:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree strongly. Any troll who seeks to disrupt Wikipedia can attack the administrator who seeks to prevent disruption. We do not provide trolls a blanket excuse that they are in dispute with the administrators who seek to limit their disruption. There is no dispute between WJBscribe and this IP. - Jehochman Talk 15:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
And removing comments from an editor using IP sockpuppets to circumvent a block is not "edit-warring". That is a loaded characterization. — Satori Son 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
We don't remove contributions of blocked editors, only banned editors. But I haven't seen any information to indicate this person is either, other than the unspecified softblock below. Videmus Omnia Talk 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
It is common practice to revert the sockpuppet edits of a blocked editor while the block is in effect. Otherwise, our blocks would be useless. — Satori Son 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting phrasing of the situation. Block evasion using open proxies is unacceptable. Full stop. I have pointed out two means of redress for the person in question - the unblock mailing list, or ArbCom. They have not chosen to take up either of those options, instead they are making use of open proxies to disrupt Wikipedia. As a consequence I have had to protect this board from IP editing for a while. My fault of course, not that of the person using IPs to evade a block and troll various pages... WjBscribe 15:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about this particular blocked user - who are they, and what type of block are they evading? Anyway, wouldn't it be better to simply answer their question on this board and end the drama, rather than lock out all of the "good" IPs who may have a need to post here? Videmus Omnia Talk 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually few IPs post here. But if we accepted your suggestion, how many posts should we allow a blocked user to make using proxies - 1, 2, 3... ? At what point should I draw the line? You will see that I have discussed the matters with this IP on my talkpage. I have blocked 12 separate proxies used by this person today alone. Given our policies against block evasion and use of proxies - is that acceptable. We have a mailing list where a large number of admins deal with unblock requests. We have an elected Arbitration Committee where the misconduct of administrators can be investigated. I actually had some concerns about the original block here - but this is not the way for the user to have their block investigated. WjBscribe 15:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
What was this person's blocked user account? Videmus Omnia Talk 15:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
They have not revealed their account - it is not blocked. Their complaint is about the softblock of the (non-proxy) IP they presently edit from - (talk · contribs). WjBscribe 15:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
If the IP is not a proxy, why is softblocked? Vandalism? Who blocked it? Videmus Omnia Talk 15:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Erm, you could check its block log for that information... But if you're very interested, some archived discussion of the matter can be found here. WjBscribe 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now unprotected this page and the IP's talkpage as a goodwill gesture following discussion with several involved parties. I hope to be able to discuss a mutually acceptable compromise. WjBscribe 15:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I support this. - Jehochman Talk 16:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - WJBscribe, you should probably also unprotect Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2007/Candidate statements/Durova/Questions for the candidate. Anon editors have an equal right to ask questions, so far as I know, and by shutting that off you are likely causing damage to Durova's candidacy by calling into question the fairness/equality of the process re anon vs. registered accounts. Videmus Omnia Talk 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I did not intend that protection to last forever. It will be lifted in due course. WjBscribe 16:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The thread you linked is about as clear as mud, but it looks to me like we generated hours of drama because of a Durova block of an IP based on another sockpuppet "sleuthing" job. It appears (at least based on this commment by Jehochman, that the block was bogus to begin with. When the person is understandably irate about being blocked, their talk page is protected and they are accused of "disruption". Soon the accusation morphs into them being a "banned" editor whose complaints must be removed rather than answered. This could all be avoided by using some freaking common sense - don't block accounts that are not damaging the encyclopedia!. The initial block was apparently another blunder resulting from this dumb sockpuppet witchhunting, and the whole situation was made infinitely worse by trying to a) shut the person up and b) cover up the whole error. Just unblock the IP and leave them alone already, unless they damage the encyclopedia. And no, complaining about dumb admin mistakes and seeking redress for them is not "damage". Videmus Omnia Talk 16:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we can be slightly more supportive of our colleagues than that. Even if legitimately aggrieved the user has made a number of disruptive posts across Wikipedia and made extensive use of open proxies. They have also been harassing Durova by email. Ultimately we need something everyone can agree to as apparently the IP is unhappy with the matter simply being refered to ArbCom for review. I am attempting to find such a compromise but various actions then and since have made that pretty difficult. Lets not treat this matter as too black and white - I think some finesse is needed if a satisfactory resolution is to be reached. WjBscribe 21:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
It appears that any "disruptive posts" that took place were an incredibly tenacious attempt to overturn a wrongful block (correct me if I'm wrong). The IP apparently was forced into using proxies because their unblock request was denied and their talk page protected. If e-mail to the blocking admin was the only avenue left open to them, then e-mailing that admin is not "harrassment" if the block was wrongful. You know as well as I do that referring an anon editor to the ArbCom for a block review is just a roundabout way of telling them to 'get bent' if the block was done by a longtime editor like Durova.
I see that the block has not been overturned yet and the block log still states that the person is a sock of a banned editor, despite the fact that there seems to be widespread doubt that this is the case. Perhaps Durova could explain exactly why she felt this IP is MyWikiBiz. Also, WJBscribe, you seem to be demanding on the IPs talk page that they reveal their identity - we don't do that here, people are allowed to edit anonymously if they so choose. Videmus Omnia Talk 22:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not asking them to reveal their identity - I am pointing out that for contact between them and Durova/Jehochman to end someone is going to have know the indentity of their Wikipedia account. Durova has not been recieving unblock requests, she has been receiving harassment. And feeling you were wrongly blocked is not an excuse for the use of open proxies to evade the block. If everyone did that we'd have chaos.Now please back off Videmus Omnia. I have been very patient with you but frankly your involvement here isn't helping. Lets see what happens when the IP comments and we find out what terms are acceptable to them. WjBscribe 22:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The person is obviously editing with an IP because they don't want to reveal their login to Durova or Jehochman. The Wikimedia privacy policy allows them to do this, and some random admin doesn't have the right to demand they reveal their account information. You should take it to Checkuser if you believe some policy is being violated by the IP, but you, or Jehochman, or Durova, don't have any right to ask that person to divulge any details to you in order to be unblocked, when they apparently shouldn't have been blocked in the first place. Videmus Omnia Talk 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Its up to them what they will or won't do. They can't ask people to avoid them if those people don't know who to avoid. Please another party in this matter is not helpful. Let them make their own case for what is or isn't acceptable to them. Look I've been working on this all day - please have faith that I understand more about the issues here than you do. This person's conduct has been quite unacceptable. They may feel aggrieved but that doesn't justify it. However a compromise is needed to end the stalemate. Please let this work itself out. Your involvement is heavy handed and is only making it less likely this situation can be resolved. WjBscribe 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
WJBscribe, your efforts have hardly been the epitome of diplomacy; as a matter of fact, your main effort earlier seemed to be an attempt to shut this person up by reverting their complaints here and semi-protecting this page. You didn't unprotect the IP's talk page until that issue was raised at this noticeboard. "Heavy-handed" is a good description of your, Jehochman's, and Durova's conduct in regards to this anon user. I'd also appreciate it if you wouldn't simply revert an unblock request without an edit summary - I'm restoring that, by the way. Videmus Omnia Talk 23:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that you only see part of the puzzle. I reverted edits using open proxies per policy. Block evasion using proxies is not acceptable whatever one thinks of your block. In the meantime I discussed the matter with Jehochman and gained his agreement to my unblocking the IP if a mutual acceptable agreement could be reached. I then began discussion with the IP. Perhaps you should let those pan out before passing judgment. WjBscribe 23:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you point me to the policy that states edits from open proxies are to be reverted? And if Jehochman precipitated the whole confrontation by a screwup, he's not really entitled to anything anyway. Videmus Omnia Talk 23:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Editing from open proxies is not allowed at the meta policy level. We would not be preventing that editing if we didn't revert the edits made by such proxies. WjBscribe 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
WJBscribe, I fear your argument seeks to prove too much. Meta policy is inherited by projects that do not have corresponding local policy. Here on we do have an overriding local policy, and editing from open proxies is not prohibited per se. What is prohibited is circumvention of blocks, by any means whatsoever. The discussion of proxies is irrelevant and distracts from the situation at issue: the user in question is acting abusively toward other users and circumventing the blocks to do so. If I may rework your statement: circumvention of blocks is not allowed, and we would not be preventing that editing if we didn't revert the edits made by block circumventing editors. Furthermore, reverting any user who's acting abusively is always justified. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and we should not build mountains of bureaucracy to climb. The fact that WP:BAN explicitly calls for reversion of banned editors does not mean other abusive editors cannot be reverted. ··coelacan 03:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A note of clarification: the static IP was so disruptive that four different administrators blocked it in the space of two days and a fifth protected the IP's talk page. I was one of the four blocking administrators, yet for some unknown reason that individual chose to single me out for retribution. This individual has been fully informed of the proper recourses. Failure to pursue legitimate options is not an excuse to circumvent policy. Responsibility for the effects of semiprotection must rest with the abuse of policy that necessitated it, not with the administrator who took action to restore order. DurovaCharge! 23:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Umm, Durova, you're misrepresenting. Here is the block log. Daniel's block was a 1-second block to correct the block log following an unblock action, and Bishonen's was only a short block pending checkuser (which apparently revealed nothing). That leaves the only 'real' blocks as yours and Jehochman's. Jehochman has already said he is mistaken, and you have yet to explain why you believe this is a sock of MyWikiBiz. Would you please do so now? Videmus Omnia Talk 23:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Please don't speak on my behalf. I said I was willing to assume good faith and accept trusted editors at face value who said that this was not who I thought it was. I am not 100% sure of the true identity of the person, nor do I know if they were posting on behalf of somebody else. I do know that they have been highly disruptive since then. - Jehochman Talk 23:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Would you consider unjustified blocks as "highly disruptive"? Videmus Omnia Talk 23:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC) - wants to sign as % Checking TOR status for ''... ACK % This is a TOR EXIT node (details below). % IP: % Name: AFriendlyBelgianTOR % Ports: 9001 9030 % Flags: Exit Fast Guard Running Stable V2Dir Valid

No further questions, your honor. Guy (Help!) 21:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Off-wiki police involvement?[edit]

Does this require it? Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 21:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No, this is relatively minor (if blockable) vandalism activity. I'm going to go do a short block on the IP and remind them not to do that again... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Some IP from Michigan. Best reverted and ignored. Kids stuff (one hopes) Pedro :  Chat  21:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Agree with George, I don't see why we'd need to call the police; giving the vandal the attention they want is never a good idea. EVula // talk // // 21:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. I do not think the kind of attention the vandal wants is the cops knocking on his door to talk to his parents about death threats. We should make it abudantly clear at all times that threatening violence or engaging in intimidation using Wikipedia is more than a blockable offense: it is a crime. If it is not a threat of violence against someone else, but a suicide threat, same thing: this is not acceptable at Wikipedia or elsewhere, and authorities should be notified. I have notified Mike Godwin and Sue Gardner with the recommendation that the authorities be notified.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Talked briefly with the big guy over email; he's aware of it, and has told the people who need to know. JDoorjam JDiscourse 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I can see Jimbo's point, in this day an age of people being aware of Wikipedia the publicity element must be considered. But we need to balance this against giving too much weight to petty vandalism and sensationalising it. If this thread is anything to show to the media, then at least it evidences a community who responds quickly, firmly and calmly to the darkest elements of human nature, (who use abuse of this work) and that we can quickly nullify it. Pedro :  Chat  21:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I can see the upside in that a headline "Wikipedia vandal rapped for wasting police time" might deter other pranksters; OTOH, would the media see it like that? It seems some are looking for a big stick with which to beat us and are seeking any excuse to NOT speak softly in the process. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok. My read was that this was sufficiently non-credible to worry about, but if Jimmy wants to go to the authorities that works too. Nobody should ever be afraid of reporting anything that they think in their judgement is a valid or credible threat of some sort, here or to authorities. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow. The discussion here reflects my own internal debate. Better safe than sorry. What persuaded me to report was the mental image of the newspaper article headlines prominently displaying my username as the RCPatroller that reverted, warned, and went no further. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 22:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
No, I think you were right to bring it here. We had a similar incident only recently. Forget your personal reputation as long as you act within policy here, which is WP:SUICIDE, although WP:ATTACK and WP:HOAX spring to mind. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Guys. Dlohcierekim was right, Jimmy endorsed, problem is moved over to the foundation. Best to move on. The community and individual editors have acted exactly as it/they should have done, and there's no need to expand this thread. Pedro :  Chat  22:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's my scary/silly walk through that park; to my knowledge, no one ever did anything and nothing ever came of it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess I disagree that this is over with. For one, WP:SUICIDE is not policy, it is simply an essay. I for one have no clear answer for cases like this going forward. Send them all to the Foundation? If that's the answer, fine by me. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, my attitude would be different if we had a set procedure for dealing with this sort of thing. Personally, I think it's sensationalizing it, but if we should be getting the Foundation involved, I'd be all for it if that's the first step. EVula // talk // // 22:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Assuming the Foundation functions 24/7, fine. Otherwise? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Can the foundation therefore provide a set process? (rhetorical question) It's tricky, per my initial comment, as there's too much of a WP:DFTT issue as well. Which is why I think this thread should be ended, in light of possible media interest, and we can discuss a process if needed to deal with particularly difficult issues involving death threats (to one's self or others). We are a responsible community and I believe this individual case has proved as such. If we need more defined guidance or process for the future let us do as we should, and gain consensus alongside foundation needs and requirements. But let's not do it here right now. Pedro :  Chat  22:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I have dropped a note to Jimbo raising this very point. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I asked people from the Foundation (Sandra Ordonez) before about situations like this. Currently the process is basically like what happened here. Contact User:Mike Godwin or User:Cary Bass about it. If they are not available and someone deems it urgent, we may contact the authorities on our own initiative. Mr.Z-man 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • At the risk of getting further media attention and possible in-depth scrutiny, is it not better to discuss these things off-wiki rather than on-wiki due to the sensitivity of the matter?? This kind of thing we wouldn't want to see in the Midweek Visiter, Liverpool Echo or any other newspaper, so let's try and handle this off-wiki to avoid further repercussions that could happen if it's further discussed on-wiki. Remember the raucous that the User:PatPeter controversy caused?? - although it didn't get discussed in the press, it did get discussion off-wiki and had real-world consequences.

I hope that we can deal with this in the proper manner, and whether it is a troll or not is not important right now. What is important, is how we deal with it, and trying to avoid causing harm to the project. --Solumeiras talk 23:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

At the the risk of extending this thread beyond its natural longevity, is it not preferable that these things were discussed openly so that the media can not therefore accuse Wikipedia of acting behind closed doors? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Fair point, Rodhullandemu. However, this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation - and it's a tough one to decide what to do. We need a community policy for things like this, and consensus is needed for such a policy. My 0.02 cents. --Solumeiras talk 23:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I understand the tendency of the media not so much as to print lies but invent the truth, but in this type of case I would rather WP was portrayed as acting responsibly, and having its policy-making process open to scrutiny. In this way we are seen to be both accessible and accountable to ourselves and others, without heading down the slippery road of plausible deniability, This is why I have raised the matter with Jimbo. What will result there is moot, but at least now the issue is live. And I hope whatever solution ensues, it will be as a result of consensus and fully supported by, and accessible to, the WP community. (PS I am not running for office anywhere) --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that we have a community consensus here. If you think it's credible, report it (here, to police, etc). With suicidal threats, we have a community essay WP:SUICIDE (non-policy per se, but documenting what's been done and why). With assault / death threats, we don't, but everyone's done similar things if it was seen as credible. I think reasonable people may disagree on what's credible, but I for one won't complain for anyone who reports something that was in the grey area. Police generally prefer to be told and determine it's not a problem, than find out the hard way that it was and that people blew it off.
I also asked Jimbo to clarify where he would like to see the line drawn. We can practically put it anywhere, but it would be good if it were well known and consistent. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the newbie question, but how much power does Jimbo have to set policy? In reference to threats, my opinion is that in most cases it's best to simply block the person. Threats are usually made when someone doesn't have the ability or willingness to actually carry them out; the threat is all they can do. If someone is actually planning on doing something, they won't make a threat beforehand, because that would ruin the element of surprise. Notice that Osama bin Laden didn't make threats before 9/11, but when he became unable to carry out plots, then he started making threats. And when was the last time someone actually carried out a bomb threat on a school? Sarsaparilla (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
One example: William Freund on Wrong Planet. It only takes one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Osama Bin Laden is a bad example and your reasoning does not match the reality of people who make threats. Thanks, SqueakBox 03:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would think that Wikipedia would be a particularly imprudent place for one to lodge serious threats, as they are permanently preserved and potentially IP-traceable. Although as anyone who has watched Jay Leno knows, there are a lot of dumb criminals. Sarsaparilla (talk) 03:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
To answer your first question, although Jimbo no longer officially sets policy, he holds a massive amount of political capital and still makes de facto accepted unilateral decisions from time to time. east.718 at 03:15, November 22, 2007


Resolved: Navnløs given 48 block after a related 24 hour block on the 6th. Funeral given 3RR warning. TigerShark (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This user has engaged in an edit war on Judas Priest, Megadeth and other pages. I have warned the user, though the user erased the comment, but the user has continued. Both of these pages originally had line breaks between genres in the music infobox and more recently some people have tried to change it to comma breaks. They had no valid reason but to cite the music infobox template, but the user has been warned that the issue has not been decided and is currently taking place at:Template talk:Infobox Musical artist#Standardizing genre delimiters. I have told him and other that if it is not broken then there is no reason to fix it but this user and others have persisted. Navnløs (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The editor who raised this incident was recently blocked for a related 3RR violation, and has violated again on Megadeth today. I have blocked them for 48 hours. The editor that this incident was raised about, and who seems to have a contribution history outside of these edit wars, has been given a 3RR warning. A substantial amount of edit warring has been taking place regarding a trivial formatting item. TigerShark (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Not resolved. I would guess that Funeral is now employing a sock or meatputtet to continue editing past 3RR. Would require a check user to be sure, though. --ElKevbo (talk) 03:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead with an rfcu if you want, I'm not using socks. And who am I supposed to be a sockpuppet of? Funeral 16:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Without doubt there is an ongoing edit war involving numerous user accounts and IPs on a number of articles with reverts related to the use of commas or linebreaks, and that issue is certainly not resolved. In this case however, without good evidence of sockpuppetry I am prepared to AGF with regard to User:Funeral. If there is good evidence (of sockpuppetry by Funeral or other sockpuppetry relating to these edit wars) I would certainly encourage raising a request at RFCU, but that aside would suggest that we mark this as resolved again. I have done so, but of course feel free to re-open. Cheers TigerShark (talk) 00:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm certain Deathbringer from the Sky (talk · contribs) is Navlos using a sock, I'll make an RFCU soon, unless someone else does before I can get the time to do it. This user becomes active when Navlos is blocked, making similar edits with similar edit summaries. I've suspected it before. [49] Funeral 00:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

David Howell (chess player)[edit]

Somebody with a username bearing resemblance to David Howell (chess player)'s father seems intent on continually removing the ban David Howell received from all Irish Chess Union events. They do not respond to any attempts to contact them. They do not edit any other articles. What to do?--ZincBelief (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked him indefinitely as a disruptive single-purpose account. Feel free to criticize if you think the block is bad. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 00:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
IMO You cannot block indefinitely over an edit disagreement and a couple of deletions of a nonnotable piece. Unblocked.
Are we going to add all traffic violations by public persons and all red cards to hockey players in wikipedia? Isn't it too cruel to add this info about a teenager into wikipedia to sit there forever? I failed to find any info about the reason of the ban besides the official notice. Therefore I doubt that this ban merits to be stored in an encyclopedia forever. `'Míkka>t 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Had he at least discussed why he was doing it, I wouldn't have blocked. However, he has not discussed anything. It's alright; I understand the unblock. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 01:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I understand the block as well. But a revert once or a month is hardly a burden for wikipedia. There is no reason to alienate a potential wikipedia contributor (he already knows how to delete, may be he will learn how to add :-) `'Míkka>t 01:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The unblock was inappropriate without discussion here first. Corvus cornixtalk 03:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Mikkalai, you should have discussed the block before overruling blatantly. GlassCobra 05:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I support the unblock. The account had made 5 contributions over a period of just over a month. All the contributions were to one article, but that doesn't make it a single-purpose account. Take a look at the first 5 edits most accounts make and see if that makes them a single-purpose account under this definition. The point is that for any account like this, there is potential for the user to reform, to learn, and to expand into other areas. The immediate jump to indefinite block was not appropriate here. Please, try shorter blocks first and trust later admins to impose longer blocks if the behaviour continues. Carcharoth (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Having reviewed this, I believe the block was inappropriate, and the unblock was correct but poorly done due to lack of prior . The account was removing negative material from a BLP. We as editors are supposed to be especially sensitive to such edits, almost to the point of operating under the assumption that it is the subject themself until proven otherwise. They clearly didn't know what they were doing, and another attempt to use the user's talk page (or even trying "email this user" on the remote chance that it would work) would have been better than blocking, especially indefinitely. GRBerry 04:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks from User:Blackworm[edit]

After I left a note to remind User:Blackworm of WP:NPA and WP:AGF, he responded with more personal attacks, accusing me of "malice", "outright lying, insincere rationalization, or pathological denial", "doublethink", "fractured logic and transparent rationalization". Most recently, he claims that I am "completely intellectually ill-equipped to discuss this subject in logical and rational terms".

I am, quite simply, stunned that anybody would consider this appropriate behaviour. I'd be grateful if an uninvolved admin would intervene. Please see User talk:Blackworm#NPA. Jakew (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you guys should both just avoid one another for a while; that might be better than chiding him over something I'm sure he's aware of. --Haemo (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I neglected to provide diffs for the above. In reverse chronological order, these are [50], [51], and [52]. Jakew (talk) 22:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Henry Pollack[edit]

Resolved: For now. User blocked for 2 days

I'd like some other admin to take a look at a situation... I've got prior ties to the situation and am reluctant to act further because I can be accused of bias.

There is a revert war occurring at Henry Pollack over the inclusion of a chunk of text that details a conviction he had for health care fraud. Said text has two sources, one of them being the FBI and the other being an archived press release from the US attorney. We have an anon IP ( who is removing it and myself and another user (Callelinea) who is restoring it. Now I see on the anon IP page this edit where the subject of the page is requesting that the page be removed completely "or I will sue Wikipedia and Callelinea who is using this site for defamation of character and no other reason". Said legal threat was quickly removed but just the same...

The conflict of interest in this case is that at one point I had adopted Callelinea as a user. Note that I withdrew the adoption some time later after I felt he wasn't following some advice I had given him.

Can I get a neutral set of eyes to look at the situation? Tabercil (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked the IP for 48 hours for making legal threats. I am well aware that he's likely on a dynamic ip address but perhaps this will send a string message. Obviously indef will not work. I am also leaving a note there about OTRS. JodyB talk 16:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, string 'em up! It's the only language they understand.--Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 18:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Though I think this'll require some monitoring for a while... see this edit which I pulled out on pure WP:BLP grounds, with a warning for the IP that left it (probably the same person behind the IP as the first one I listed)... Tabercil (talk) 23:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Protected titles requests[edit]

I have created this fork of Wikipedia:Requests for page protection so that admins can specifically deal with protected titles.

It will hopefully take the load off WP:RFPP and ensure that requests are split between the two.

Feel free to fix it as much as you want or need; it's just been created! Thanks, --Solumeiras talk 18:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Just as a side note, I've found a lot of people rush to this solution when really it's just one person recreating the page over and over... it seems more practical to just block the person who's recreating the page. If they actually do evade the block to recreate the page, and they rarely care that much... then you should deny recreation of the page. --W.marsh 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
  • If this process does survive, I have created a clearer redirect. I would have done something witty such as WP:SALTSHAKER but I think WP:REQSALT suffices. To all Americans, have a great holiday weekend. To everyone else around the world, well, good luck getting ahold of any American based business tomorrow :) spryde | talk 21:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I am not sure this is necessary. Protected titles requests make up a tiny fraction of the total traffic at WP:RFPP and to me it doesn't seem helpful to split things up onto multiple pages when so far one page is proving more than sufficient. I would like to speedy this with the minimum amount of fuss. – Steel 21:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I concur. Not another page for admins' watchlists please. Most salting is done without any request, and the tiny proportion that is requested can be handled at RFPP where it represents a tiny proportion. There will be no fuss from me if it is deleted. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed. I see little-to-no requests to antigenesis the area compared to Featured-Article-of-the-Day prot requests (I've asked for a new RFPP template tag specifically for those at Template talk:RFPP). -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 23:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Several hours on ANI with less than ringing endorsement is good enough for me. Consider it gone. – Steel 23:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

DRV also processes some requests for unsalting. Admittedly, this is usually in the form of declining a request for undeletion of a salted page while permitting recreation. I'll defer to the WP:RFPP regulars as to whether this is needed. GRBerry 22:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I strongly disagree with the creation of this board; it's just another place for me to watch. There's already a small, dedicated group of admins who work RFPP to the point where there is almost never a backlog. east.718 at 02:44, November 22, 2007

Davkal socks to evade ban[edit]

Resolved: blocked and tagged by Guy

User:Davkal has created two socks: User:Jamon y cheso and User:LutherFlint to evade his ban. It is clear, first of all, that these to accounts are being operated by the same puppeteer from this difference where Luther Flint accidentally responds to accusations at Jamon y cheso before realizing his error and reverting it. Secondly, Luther flint arrived at the very time Davkal was banned and has adopted the confrontational and disruptive style of Davkal at precisely the same articles. Recommend banning these two socks. I've cross-posted this to allegations of sockpuppetry as well. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like LutherFlint is indeed a sockpuppet of Jamon y cheso, but there isn't enough evidence to prove that these are both Davkal socks--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, they're now acting in consort to edit Electronic voice phenomenon. I don't have the time right now to file a checkuser, but the evidence that these two are Davkal from the timing of Luther Flint's arrival to his use of the rather strange term "armchair" in denigration of skepticism is overwhelming. I know you haven't been involved in editing these things, but there is no question that this is the same person come back to haunt us again (excuse the pun). ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've blocked Jamon y cheso as an obvious sock of Davkal. LutherFlint isn't quite as clear on the surface, but I haven't dug into his contribs that closely. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Passes the duck test - those articles are the last Davkal edited before his ban and have been a focus of obsessive interest with him since forever. Raymond Arritt blocked Jamon y chaso, I blocked LutherFlint; we both came to the same conclusion separately here, not having discussed it at all.

Guy (Help!) 20:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

One of these socks started an ugly thread accusing James Randi of pedophilia. This may need deletion and/or oversight. Skinwalker (