Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive365

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Bluemarine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) evading ban on Wikimedia Commons[edit]

Banned User Matt Sanchez aka Bluemarine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is posting photos of himself to Wikimedia Commons here, in an apparent attempt to place more photos that violate copyright on his article page. If he's banned for one year on Wikipedia, shouldn't that also extend to Commons? --Eleemosynary (talk) 03:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

For better or worse, En-wiki bans apply only to this project. If the user is misbehaving on Commons, the matter would have to be raised with Commons administrators. Commons is free-media only (no fair use) so one would assume that if the pictures are indeed copyvios, that would be addressed there expeditiously. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. --Eleemosynary (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked his last upload, he's not putting any source, post this at common's admin board and it should be handled quickly. RlevseTalk 03:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've given the Commons account a warning and asked Mr Sanchez to provide the necessary source and licence information. If he does so and anyone then wants to contest that information, they can do so at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests. Sandstein (talk) 12:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible copyright violations[edit]

This user has uploaded a number of photos from . Unfortunately, some are untagged and the Flickr page says all rights reserved, which contradicts the CC-BY-2.5 assertion made on some of the images (example | local copy). I've asked him to clarify the licensing info and/or email OTRS, but the problem is that he hasn't edited for 6 months... MER-C 12:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sent him (assuming it is him, of course) a "flickrmail", copying most of the text of what you've written on his talk page, MER-C. He last uploaded to Flickr a few days ago, so he's more likely to see it there, I hope. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 12:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, he has replied affirming that the licence is correct on Flickr and the images on Wikipedia should be deleted. I can forward the mail to anyone who would like to see it. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 13:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If he is, in fact, the same person as this user, this is an attempt to revoke a license that he released the pictures under. —Random832 13:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Any with no tags will have to go, as the Flickr copyright statement trumps the information we have. But CC-BY/GFDL assertion is irrevocable, no matter what he puts elsewhere, and if he tagged them here as freely licensed, then freely licensed they are. But just the ones he uploaded, not the bigger versions on Flickr. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, any untagged ones have been deleted and the rest have valid CC-BY or GFDL/CC tags. The only exception is Image:ATTPlaza.jpg, where the tag was removed on 1 February by an IP and replaced with "All Rights Reserved". I've taken the liberty of reverting the IP. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

None heared me before, but if you could, please block this disruptive socks![edit]

I am moving this post to WP:SSP. Jehochman Talk 15:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocking request User:[edit]

Just warned for adding unsourced material, looking back at his/her talk page, this user has a history of vandalism and has been blocked in the past. Another block is in order.--Rtphokie (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a shared IP and has made only 1 edit in the past 6 days, so I don't think a block is in order quite yet. If the IP continues editing disruptively, then I'd suggest a rapidly escalating series of warnings (given its history) and reporting to WP:AIV, in which case a block will be forthcoming. MastCell Talk 17:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


Believe this is a clear-cut case of a user who is continuing to reinsert lengthy POV content in article via IPs after an "informal final" warning. The first IP was blocked at WP:AIV but another admin referred me here. Requesting appropriate blocks on user and other IP, as well as a check on the IP range for similar activity. Please read all 6 links. Full report was:

Incivility, Talk page violations, harassment, despite warnings, sock puppeteering, User:Griot[edit]

Resolved: User:Griot indefinitely blocked following checkuser investigation.

User:Griot is repeatedly inserting inappropriate content on my talk page,, despite warnings. User has deleted my comments from article talk page, User continues to revert content on Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns, despite warnings Sock puppeteering, evidenced here and here Thank you, (talk) 10:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I make no comment to the charges of talk-page violations or of harassment, however I see no evidence of abusive sockpuppetry. Useing two separate accounts is expressly ALLOWED, except where the use of both accounts is an attempt to disrupt or to evade a prior block. I also don't see much evidence that these are the same person at all. They don't appear to edit in the same sorts of articles for the most part... 18:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Also strongly suspect User:Sedlam is a sock puppet of User:Griot, with User:Feedler.User:Jayron32, I have never heard that sock puppets are allowed. Could you post the link that specifically verifies this? (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Some more examples of problems with Griot

Examples of likely sock puppetry

one two three four five

then begins extended rapidfire disruptive extended strafing as Sedlam: [4] through [5]

Then jumps back in as Griot for more disruptive editing.

Griot's Conflict of Interest

Griot describes his own serious personal grudge against Ralph Nader, yet persists in attempting to make the article show the subject in the most negative light, and disrupt efforts for balance.

False claims of "compromise"

Griot makes false claims compromises were reached on article content, than will supply article diffs, rather than actual talk page discussion, as "proof." Boodlesthecat (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If you think you've got a case for sockpuppetry, checkuser would be your best bet. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that the above statements by User:Boodlesthecat are true. User:Griot has been repeatedly warned about erasing talk pages, sock puppetry, disruptive reverting, POV pushing on articles and fabricating compromises, especially Ralph Nader and related, Chris Daly, Matt Gonzalez and others, yet the behaviors persist. It is too big of a problem for one user, or even two. Request assistance, please. Thank you, (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And yet more abuse by Griot:
Deleting other editors talk page comments:
Here is one example of Griot deleting other editor's talk page comments; in this case deleting a request that he stop making obviously false mischaracterizations of other editors. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding fabrication and personal attack from "User's actions were deemed without merit -- because they have no merit." (talk) 22:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Interested admins may want to note that the above IP ( (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) was blocked in November for sockpuppeting -- oh, the irony -- and comes from the same ISP as the blocked-for-6-months IP (talk · contribs · WHOIS) aka the now-blocked Teleogen (talk · contribs) aka The Nervous Mermaid (talk · contribs) (see also here), pursuing a years-long edit war on Ralph Nader and against User:Griot specifically. Lots of smoke, no fire, in other words. --Calton | Talk 02:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The above user was offered an incivility warning here,, which might explain his sudden presence and unfounded accusations. Attempts to discredit other editors do not erase or smoke screen the violations of User:Griot. (talk) 10:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Why yes, that must be it, considering that your "civility warning" -- which has already been called bogus or, the use the exact term, "unwarranted" -- 'was placed by you nearly 4 hours AFTER I posted the above[6]. In which chronological direction does cause and effect work for you?
If any evidence of the lack of substance to the ever-edit-warring anon were needed, that might be a good one. --Calton | Talk 15:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, comments like "In which chronological direction does cause and effect work for you?" are uncivil. The editor pointed out that reverting content is not necessarily uncivil, but was not addressing your tone, which is. I see you have been warned and were recently blocked for incivility. Please try to remain WP:CIVIL. Thank you, (talk) 01:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nooo, they're reality-based, commenting on the physical impossiblity of your latest absurd claim/paranoia. --Calton | Talk 06:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, I've reported this latest, below. Attempts to egg me on and smoke screen the issue at hand will not work.

Returning to the matter at hand, User:Griot continues to revert edits to Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns, while flaming uncivil involvement from User:Calton, as here (talk) 09:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Matt Sanchez evading 1 year Arbcom block[edit]

Resolved: Ban-evadingtransgressing sockuser blocked, no further administrator action necessary. Sandstein (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

refactored- (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

See Special:Contributions/matthewsanchez. - ALLSTAR echo 08:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This actually should go at arbitration enforcement.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and blocked, since it seems pretty unambiguous. Is that an error on my part? – Luna Santin (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Matt was not "evading" a ban. He left one comment on my talk. Why the rush? John Vandenberg (talk) 09:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
He wasn't? Editing on Wikipedia is a violation of the ban. So what do you call it? - ALLSTAR echo 09:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The "comment" in question was an untruth in an attempt to purge his photo from his article page. A clear violation of his block. --Eleemosynary (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm beginning to see a lynch mob here, and it's not a pretty sight. Fut.Perf. 11:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Fut.Perf., I am guessing that that comment is aimed (at least in part) at me. For the record, other than talk pages, I have not communicated with any other editor before making a report to WP:AE. What about WP:AGF? Jay*Jay (talk) 11:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Banned means no editing, at all. Not by the banned account, a sock, future or past accounts, nor IP thereof. Why is that difficult to understand? From the ban policy: "no longer welcome" and "bans apply to the person and not the account." RlevseTalk 11:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This is, I feel, way over the top. The guy has an article here at Wikipedia and he is entitled to ensure that it complies with the relevant policies, such as WP:BLP, VP:V et al. Yeah, he is evading a ban, but sadly, but it's down to a lack of foresight by the Arbcom people. Nudge him towards OTRS and we'll see what we can do, without Matt violating an oh so precious year long ban. Nick (talk) 11:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Enforcing ArbCom-sanctioned bans is not over the top at all. Being banned means no editing, period. If the ArbCom would have wanted to allow exceptions from the ban, they would have said so. Sandstein (talk) 12:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure. The point is just the big fuss that's being made about it. A banned user makes a single posting on the talk page of the admin who blocked him earlier. Even if formally a breach of the rules, it was something that was evidently not meant to be deceptive, disruptive, etc. The default assumption is that the admin will quietly deal with it, and that's it. Instead, we get a horde of people screaming and shouting with wild accusations, forum-shopping in half a dozen places, carrying the fuss over to commons and whatnot. Fut.Perf. 12:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What screaming and shouting, or wild accusations, or forum-shopping have you come across? Natalie (talk) 15:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Banned means banned. Period. It's not a big fuss, you're the one making a fuss, FutPerf. Banned does NOT mean "if it's a minor edit and I think it's okay, it is okay". It means no editing at all. RlevseTalk 12:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside the issue of who might or might not be "making a fuss", I do agree that banned editors should not be permitted to edit the Pedia whatsoever. If they have an issue, they must use the Wikipedia:OTRS. — Satori Son 12:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

When a banned user is himself or herself the subject of a mainspace article that he or she wishes to comment on, a difficult situation is created, which is one of the reasons that bans should be a last resort in these among other types of cases. Unfortunately, in this instance the user conduct was egregious, continuous, and really left little choice (and note this user is community banned and ArbCom banned). Someone should again steer the user in the direction of OTRS, and after a reasonable time a lifting of the ban can be requested through the ArbCom mailing list, although the committee would certainly need a major assurance that the problematic activity would not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Compare with WP:NPA. The policy means no personal attacks, at all. Yet when a personal attack actually happens, what is the appropriate response? Usually to ignore it. A violation of policy is a violation of policy, but does not necessarily result in blocks, long threads on AN/I, etc. Or compare with 3RR. What do you usually do? If it's a few hours in the past, a first offense etc. you just do nothing usually, I think. I suggest just letting the admin in question handle this. (What's IAR for?) --Coppertwig (talk) 02:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have made a suggestion on the ArbCom discussion page here offering a potential way for blocked editors to be able to comment in a non-disruptive way on articles of which they are the subject. Comment is welcomed there, as it is an issue for ArbCom to consider, not one calling for admin action. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no doubt that this new account should be blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of a banned user. However, I also believe that the user should be pointed toward OTRS. Just because a user has been banned, it does not mean that they cannot request incorrect and uncited information be corrected (as per WP:BLP), or that an inappropriate image cannot be removed. In this case, the image has indeed been removed, so no worries there. --Yamla (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:CambridgeBayWeather Wikistalking User:MoralVictor[edit]


Pretty clearcut case exposed by the contributions up to 14:41 : [7]. Earnestly desired that you might give that editor an etiquette check talking to about this and take other appropriate action. Seems to be a serial-reverter causing problems for actual contributors. Thanking you in advance, Upheld (talk) 15:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Upheld appears to be a sock of user:MoralVictor, sent request to look into this at WP:SSP. Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Upheld, if you are going to run sockpuppets I suggest that you remember which account you are using. It was your edits I reverted not MoralVictor. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppets indeed! Turns out both of the above are socks of DavidYork71 and have been blocked. I'd say this is resolved. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User editing another's 3RR report[edit]

Resolved: Two edit mistakes. Non-administrator "resolution".

x42bn6 Talk Mess 14:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

My attention was called to this series of edits by User:G2bambino. It appears that he changed another user's 3RR report to one against that user. There may be more to this and I don't have the time to look into this now. I initially blocked G2bambino for 3 days but I am not 100% sure that this is the correct action, therefore I'm looking for someone else to check into it. Stifle (talk) 22:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Some background might be useful. I blocked G2bambino on 2 Feb for his 7 or 8th 3rr violation and made it 2 weeks given his long history of edit warring. I subsequently unblocked him after extracting a promise of 1RR for the remaining period of the original block. I saw the report at AN3 and asked him what it was about and was told that it was in retaliation for the report he had raised against the other editor and when I checked back on AN3 the state of the page (as apparantly edited by G2b) reflected this. Given this and what appeared to be a disruptive and vexatious report plus a pretty empty request for arbitration that has been turned down I blocked the other user for harrassment. I was suprised that G2b didn't seem bothered by this and went away to think. I realised that I had overreacted and unblocked the other user with a warning not to harrass again. They subsequently contacted myself and Stifle to advise of the altered report and here we are. I confess that I'm somewhat bemused by what has gone on (its late here and I have been up since 6am). I can't make head of tail of the diffs provided myself but would appreciate another admin thoroughly reviewing the situation. I apologise publically for issuing an incorrect and imperfectly considered block against the other user and can only throw myself on the mercy of the court for this. I recuse myself from further activity with either user. I should say that I have found G2b a very intractable user and I would personally suggest that, should further action beyond Stifle's block be considered, a decent sized block be imposed. I'm very disappointed that having given G2b a lifeline from his block that he goes and does something like this. Spartaz Humbug! 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sad, then, that you should cast a judgement on me when you clearly have no clue what went on and have taken one user's story completely at face value. In fact, Soulscanner is the instigator - perhaps accidentally, perhaps not - of all this. The process of events were as follows:
Another fine example of Wikpedia justice in action. --G2bambino (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Why don't you just wait until an untired admin with time to wade through this responds? I may have misjudged this (in which case you will get an apology). How about you cut me some slack for being tired now and accept that everyone is human. I haven't seen any justice dished out just yet; stifle unblocked you to get this looked at. I have taken no admin action against you. You must admit its a mess. I'm going to bed. Night all. Spartaz Humbug! 23:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Fine, fair enough; but I ask the exact same of you. As I'm sure you're aware, events before this had already left me wondering about my continued participation in Wikipedia. But then this person comes along and files a spurious RfA regarding my "behaviour," creates a bogus 3RR report against me for a page I haven’t edited in months, and now has gone from page to page to page to page screeching about this supposed crime, which is just a mess that his mistake caused in the first place! I'd also say being swiftly blocked for three days was indeed judicial. Needless to say, my patience has worn very thin, and I apologise if it's showing too clearly. --G2bambino (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalizing Administrators board[edit]

I accept Spartaz's apology. It is not his fault. He assumed good faith, which is what Wikipedia is all about. He blocked me because he sincerely thought I was harassing G2bambino with specious claims. Spartaz has been the victim of a rather crude scam. When you see something on an Administrators board, you assume that people won't have the audacity and time to vandalize it and deliberately misrepresent other people's posts. Spartaz has the right to be angry, and I think I do too. He has been suckered into abusing his priveledges, and I've been the victim of the scam. The facts can be discerned by simply examining 2 key posts at the history page of the 3RR board.

  • I originally posted 2 reports of G2bambino and 1 of is associate Quizimodo who had twice indulged in tag team edit warring with my posts to circumvent 3RR rules. Administrator Stifle issued warning decisions imploring them to cease. This link documents the situation before G2bambino began altering my posts. . You will see my 3 reports on the bottom of the page. Administrator [User:Stifle|Stifle] issued warnings to G2bambino and Quizimodo (Please see link to verify.)
  • G2bambino then altered my first report on him to make it appear like his report against me. He then suggested that my second post (refering to a previously unreported edit war in October similar to yesterday's edit war) was in retaliation against his make-believe post. (please see link) Spartaz read it, and issued a block against me. He did this with no warning. He then later reconsidered and undid the block. I figured out what was going on by carefully examining the history page, reported this to him, he apologized, and I accepted (actually, even before he apologized). It was a malicious and willful attempt to get me blocked. He has vandalized an Administrator board in pursuit of a personal vendetta, and victimized an Administrator who was simply assuming good faith.

I warn you that he will probably alter this post, arguing with the facts, hurl personal insults, and render this discussion impossible to follow. This has been his way ina ll his dealings with me. He has driven many editors into exasperation and fatigue with such tactics. I urge you to block him until Administrators can verify the facts presented here. --soulscanner (talk) 00:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Your actions, and mine, are clearly spelled out in the edit summary of the 3RR notice board; I have highlighted the specific ones above. Your conspiracy theories are well known, but let's see what others have to say about your actions over the past two days. --G2bambino (talk) 00:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In chronological order, edits to WP:3RRN with respect to User:Soulscanner and User:G2bambino, oldest first:
I'll let others decide on what to do here. x42bn6 Talk Mess 00:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, for god's sake, I see what's happened now.
I think that clarifies what happened; I made a mistake in not reading Soulscanner's two near-identical and concecutive reports carefully enough, and I apologise. But it leaves me wondering: why did Soulscanner delete my report against him in the first place? --G2bambino (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Noted. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Holy cow, you're right. Oh man, I'm so sorry. I remember now. I thought your post was my duplicate post. Oh, I feel stupid. What a waste of time. I apologize to everyone here. --soulscanner (talk) 01:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • G2bambino - I promised that I would apologise if I was wrong and so I was. I was undoubtedly a dick and should have assumed good faith. I should have gone to bed and not tried think when I was dead on my feet. Sorry. Spartaz Humbug! 11:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Methinks we can put this as resolved, and let the 3RR reports be handled if they haven't already. x42bn6 Talk Mess 13:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)



Can an admin please fix the page moves on Bear? Thanks. --NeilN talkcontribs 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)



Camel HOW COME Camel does not show?????

Camelus dromedarius, Wadi Rum,Jordan.

HELP--Goon Noot (talk) 01:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You appear to have fixed it. Awesome camel, by the way. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
It does show.--Hu12 (talk) 01:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

the way i was treated[edit]

Resolved: Nonsense deleted, nothing to see here folks, move along.

Earlier i set up an account and added a page about my religion Martynism and was horified when it got deleated and i got called silly by ine of your admisitrators for this i think it is un acceptable!! all i wanted was an apology but i got further insulted when he told me to go to to place my information on there!! i feel the way i was treated was wrong!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laneo (talkcontribs) 13:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want us to comment you'll need to tell us the exact name of the article in question, so we can examine circumstances for ourselves. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The article in question is Martynism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), created by Ben martyn is smelly (talk · contribs). The article was rightfully speedied as nonsense, you haven't been treated wrongly, and there's no need for admin intervention here. If you want to make jokes, please go to Uncyclopedia or build your own website. AecisBrievenbus 13:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I've left the user a welcome message and full details of Wikipedia policy on nonsense articles made up in one day. Educate and inform, I say :o) ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 13:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed - this doesn't need any more action here, User:The Anome was perfectly right in the way they acted; the account that created the article deserved to be blocked, and from the deletion summary it seemed to deserve being speedied as unsalvageable content. alex.muller (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[edit]


- Blocked by User:AndonicO

The IP has been blocked by AndonicO for 72 hours. In the future, please address this at WP:AIV. Thanks, Caknuck (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-cleaning glass spamming[edit]

There is a discussion about Self-cleaning glass on Talk:Self-cleaning glass, which needs third person imput, User:Mikkalai, removed the speedy delete templates on brandname SunClean and Pilkington Activ he started himself, wont agree on removing the manufacturer part on the article, however i believe its an active editor, so what to do. Mion (talk) 03:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What you didn't mention is that both are not articles he started, but simple redirects, one to the company that makes the brand and the other to the generic product article. Is it even possible for a redirect to be spam, or speedily deletable? In any event I don't see that this is spam at all. Plus, the user listed both competing companies - he's obviously not shilling for one of them or the other. I cleaned up the Self-cleaning glass article slightly to mention the manufacturers in prose (and avoid the links to redirects) rather than listing them so it would be less of a list. Beyond that, I don't see how this is possibly important enough to worry about. I'm not an administrator so I'll let the administrators decide if this is worthy of intervention. Wikidemo (talk) 05:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Like i said, he started the redirects to extrapromote the brand, i didn't say Mikkalai started the articles, so i didn't mention that, now to prevent editwars, the speedy delete template states, you can add {{hangon}} and give your argument to an admin, there is no exception for that. Mion (talk) 06:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the new edits on the article from user Wikidemo, moving the disputed content from the left to the right of the article is not changing anything in my opinion. However it gets interesting, even if internal spamming is not seen the same as external spamming, the page is used as yellow pages, and for that, Wikipedia is not the yellow pages, as per Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Mion (talk) 13:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC).

User:Mion has to be explained that their notion about "spamming" are nontraditional, to put it mildly. What I am doing with the article is kinda "industrial espionage" rather than "advertising" or something. Also, I would ask someone to advice them that a better good is in expanding articles instead of messing with formalities and bickering in talk pages. 'Míkka>t 01:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Does Mikka work for both Pilkington and PPG? I don't think so. I'd call those plausible search terms, and therefore reasonable candidates for redirects. Guy (Help!) 18:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, my notion of SPAM is not so nontraditional, Wikipedia_talk:Spam#Internal_link_spamming, it might not be covered by WP:SPAM, which is used as an argument now, it still is in conflict with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and to be traditional, brandnames are copyrighted and non free, use of them is not advised/discouraged on wikipedia, this might change if you deliver proof of permission to Wikipedia:OTRS. Cheers Mion (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
To follow the advice : I ask an admin to rollback them all, add a speedy delete template on the brandname redirects and posting a warning on the user's talk page that the editor is not only being disruptive but should read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Mion (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Brand names are trademarked, not copyrighted. And you're misinterpreting that "internal link spamming" definition. —Random832 14:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
And trademarks are copyrighted, however this might be different per country. Mion (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
That might be, but for me yellow pages provide productinformation, and related company names and brands, according to the yellow pages definition it looks like this article Self-cleaning glass. Mion (talk) 20:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I moved this discussion to the proper talkpage Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#.3D.3D_Self-cleaning_glass_spamming_.3D.3D, any follow up on this discussion please on the talkpage of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Mion (talk) 21:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Legal threat on Talk:Serio[edit]

After the page on a Chicano rapper named Serio was deleted at AfD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Serio), an anonymous editor left a legal threat here, stating that she wishes to seek legal action if Serio's page is not undeleted, due to the fact that "it tends that over half of the Chicano Rappers pages have been deleted... Some of which are very known artists and have had heavy radio rotation." User goes on to say "Please place his article back or he will do whatever it takes we have already contacted the office in Florida and are trying to resolve this without action. We are aware of the policies of Wikipedia and know how it works. However we will move forward to see that all Mexican American Rap Artists are treated fairly on the English Wikipedia site and that authors or admins are correct in their judgment and not bias towards are people especially Serio." I am not sure of what office in Florida she has contacted, but this nonetheless sounds very serious. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters(Broken clamshellsOtter chirps) 06:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The office in Florida, the editor is talking about, I assume, was our former HQ in St. Petersburg. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There was a very similar case, as I recall, in which was ordered to link to a particular news story which was, in the words of Antonin Scalia writing for the six justice majority, "clearly cool". I hope the Foundation's prepared to pay its lawyers overtime on this one. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 06:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It turns out that the very same IP created a page on the Spanish Wikipedia about this subject. It also has been blocked three times relating to this matter. And there's sockpuppetry as well. I'd recommend a long term block as they clearly don't understand the purpose of Wikipedia. MER-C 07:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Page containing threat deleted per CSD G8. —Kurykh 07:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I blocked the user for a month per WP:NLT, of course I'm willing to reconsider the block if the threat is withdrawn. As a side note I'm somewhat skeptical about the user's claim, she says that she has connections with the rapper but a few months ago this same address wrote this on the article's talk page: "Please don't remove page serio is my favorite rapper I am a huge fan and all my friends listen to him at my school. He is the best rapper I have heard in a long time. Thanks Wikipedia for having him on here. Sincerley, Hector Suarez" its everyone decision to make but the options are either a school age fan or part of Serio's legal team, and to be honest my opinion is inclining towards the first. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
She actually claims to be an employee of his record label, not a member of his legal team; it's plausible that someone from his record label would have posed as a fan to try to make him look more credible than he is. Or it's possible that both posts were by Serio himself.
But in any event, you're all taking this much too seriously. This whole incident is hilarious. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If you follow the entire history, and the AFD itself, the entire situation is like a bad rash that won't go away. Rlevse was around and is familiar with it. Most of the puppet rings includes User:, User:‎, User:Serio1, User:Serio2, User:Serio3 and include "official" letters from his self-owned publisher/basement/whatever. PHARMBOY (TALK) 19:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mrschimpf and Gladys j cortez[edit]

These guys think ACMEMan is Gsnguy. Thats a lie!!! ACMEMan is a good editor! Gsnguy is a very bad editor!! Eartha Brute (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

    • Oh look. I came here to post that an individual by the name of Judge Jones had decided to make his user page a "courtroom" against me and another user, and what do I find? An entirely "third" user, this charming soul, has already done my work for me, albeit in a slightly-different form than I'd planned. I'll be ducking over to WP:RFCU now...this looks fairly cut-and-dried to me. (If you take a look at my talk page, I think you'll see what a tempest in a teapot this is....sorry for the bother.)(Oh, and by the way, AcmeGSNEarthaJones, you're supposed to post at the BOTTOM when making a report. Just a thought. Moving this there....)Gladys J Cortez 13:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(Moved, formatting and spelling intact, from the top of the page where it didn't belong.)

Judge Jones (talk · contribs) and Eartha Brute (talk · contribs) both blocked permanently for harassment. Instant response: this and this, leading to an instant permanent block of James Bond3232 (talk · contribs) as well. Neat. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
And James Bond3232a (talk · contribs), too. Fun! ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I go to sleep early for one night :-P...Anyways, I was not saying for sure these accounts were related in my conversations about the subject with Gladys and on WP:TVS, I was saying they may be related. However with last night's funny business around these accounts I'm ready to confirm they are all related. I got an email this morning saying I had a password change which was probably initiated by one of these accounts using the forgotten password feature, which didn't work because that new password (which I can assure you will NOT be activated) only goes to my private email address. The similarities between all of these accounts is obvious if you look at each of their histories; one of them had tried to put a block template on my talk page, when I can assure you I've never come close to one since I avoid tenous edit wars all I can. Thank you Gladys and Redvers for coming to my aid in my absence, you both did a great job containing all of this hassle. Nate (chatter) 22:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Redvers, thanks as always. That reaction on your talk page was teh zexy--clearly, this user is very "special". But as I said to Nate--at least now, having had an attack page created against me and having had to file an RFCU, I can say with pride that I'm a REAL Wikipedian!! Gladys J Cortez 22:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Y'all can mark this one resolved--the RFCU came back quacktacular. Again, sorry for the kerfuffle. Gladys J Cortez 01:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Cyrus111 making a mess again[edit]

Unresolved incident resubmitted because the user came back to insert [8] his undue stuff again without any intention to resolve the disagreement per TALK. Quote:

This user tries to revive Aryans and does not mind to use false references to fill Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA) (and reinsert stubbornly) with WP:UNDUE gibberish:


Moreover, he tries to put material together in a way that constitutes original research (WP:SYNTH), even though he does not manage for the "simple" reason that his sourced references don't support his claims for a bit. This is POV-pushing and in violation of WP:NOR. To be sure, this does not have anything to do with a justified encyclopedic compilation using proper quotes. One example of this abuse of sources out of three:

  • His own quote "The Kurgan's thesis is the predominant model of Indo-European origins and likely the origin of the spread of R1a and R1a1." he sourced with Mallory (1989:185). Apart from the very one-sided inaccuracy of the first part of this statement, Mallory was absolutely agnostic of the gene R1a1 in 1989.

I don't know yet what policy he is violating by putting references around his claims using quotes that don't match, still this looks a pretty serious violation of something.

  1. An assessment to the abuse of his sourced references you'll find at Talk:Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#Iran_and_Central_Asia
  2. We also had discussions here:[10]
  3. And also here: [11]

Please do something, because nothing works to make him stop. Rokus01 (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a content dispute? It looks like one, and it is not for Administrator attention (Administrators cannot weigh in on content disputes with their various tools). If it is, then see dispute resolution. Looking at that, I suggest a request for comment. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

An improper RfA[edit]

Could someone please take a look at this interesting RfA by a novice editor, where the only support would appear to be a cunning little bit of sockpuppetry. It hasn't been properly formatted, so isn't appearing at WP:RFA, but when / if it did, I have no doubt WP:SNOW would apply. Can it be snipped in the bud? Or does it have go through the motions? gb (t, c) 18:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought that name looked familiar. See the differently-capitalized Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/mr kc, which I snow-closed a month ago. (on a tangent, actual capitalization should be "/Mr kc".) Since it isn't transcribed, I'd suggest a talk with the editor on his talk page about how RfA's work before he does transcribe it. --barneca (talk) 18:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll delete it as a improperly formed duplicate if there are no objections. Rudget. 18:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
OK - I've left a message suggesting he {{db-author}} it, and pointed him at WP:SOCK. I have no objection to it being deleted, of course. I think, given it's a newbie and the principles of WP:BITE, it can probably be left at this stage (but I'll keep a cursory eye on his contributions). gb (t, c) 18:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Probably the best actions as of now. Diligence at work. :) Rudget. 18:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked or not blocked?[edit]

I'm not sure how this works...

Yesterday my bot SatyrBot (talk · contribs) started doing stuff I didn't like and wouldn't shut down. So I blocked it. I've gone in and cleaned up the code and put in an emergency shut-off valve (so I don't have to block anymore), and un-blocked it. If I log in as the bot, I can edit. But when I tell the bot to run on its server, it can't - and it has an autoblock error. Is there something blocking the IP address the bot's server runs on? How do I test that and/or remove it?

Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I cleared the autoblock. Try it now. Next time try blocking with autoblock off. I'm too tired to explain how to find autoblocks when the tool is down (seems like months) but drop me a note on my talk page if you are interested and I'll explain how. If you feel like doing a favour in return, please feel free to sort out the mess in the preceding section. :). Now I'm really off to bed. Spartaz Humbug! 23:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks - that seems to have cleared it. I can't promise I can clear up the above nearly as quickly :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
PS the TS is back up, but with ugly replag for s1, and worse replag for s3 :( – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 02:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


Is this edit worth keeping this user around? -[12] - I gave them a level one vandalism warning, but I'm thinking it should have been stronger. Corvus cornixtalk 23:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems like the sort of fella who never lasts long. Lawrence § t/e 23:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This user should get, at a minimum, a 36 hour block. This should happen just about anytime anyone has demonstrated they are here to attack editors (add:esp. when it can be ascertained to be personal, and dragged over to wiki from real life). If they come back from that and do it again, indef block the account. R. Baley (talk) 00:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Personal? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 00:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The editor who was being attacked has a user name which appears to coincide with "Northern Highlands High School". Sounds like somebody he knows. Corvus cornixtalk 00:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
That just makes it worse, and I am monitoring the situation. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 00:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

31 hour block issued for Bubbamickmac. Vsmith (talk) 00:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Backlog on WikiProject on open proxies[edit]

The WikiProject on open proxies has a large backlog that needs clearing. If any admins are looking for a task to do, your presence is requested on this page. Thanks! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 00:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

3RR violator continuing after block[edit] (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was blocked for 3RR after continually adding the same list of facts over and over. The instant their block expired, they immediately continued. I think a sterner warning and a longer block would be appropriate. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 04:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Except they haven't reverted anything? I don't see where a second 3RR block is needed here, since there's not even one revert by the user since the block expired. Could you explain the problem in more detail, so that we can see what's up? 04:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I should have outlined more diffs. This user reinserted the same material a total of ten times before the article was protected and he was blocked. His block just ended and he simply restored it again. He's also reverted again since I reported this. He never responds to warnings on his talk pages, instead just using edit summaries as he reverts. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 04:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Relentless Accusations of Plagiarism, Need Assistance[edit]

Editor Cfrito persists in accusing me of plagiarism. This is a harsh accusation to hurl, not to mention reputation threatening. I have reviewed the complaint and found it absurd at face value. Not only have I not plagiarized, Cfrito has not even depicted plagiarism yet he keeps making his accusation. I have marked some of this editor's instances of hurling this accusation against me. At this link administrators can find his first allegation of plagiarism. At this link is found his second allegation of plagiarism. At this link you will find his third allegation of plagiarism against my person. At this link you will find my warning for him to cease the allegation of plagairism. At the following link administrators can see that he persists in his allegation. Cfrito’s reputation damaging accusation must end, or else someone needs to show me where I have plagiarized. I appreciate assistance.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 04:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


User:Fadix was banned by decision of the arbitration committee for 1 year, [13] and his ban was reset twice for evasion with socks. [14] Now he is posting evidence to the new arbitration case with his new self-admitted sock account Rodolui (talk · contribs). [15] Is it OK for a banned user to post evidence to arbitration cases and talks of articles? Grandmaster (talk) 05:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Posting with a sock is not ok. I could see unblocking the main account SOLEY for the purpose of editing the RFAR page, if and only if the arbitration committee feels there is something important for this user to say. (Don't know, haven't looked at this particular case.) --B (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
He tried to do the same during the previous AA case: [16] His sock account was blocked, edits reverted and ban reset. Grandmaster (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A banned user can email arbcom if they have pertinent information. The user has identified themself as Fadix, so I have blocked the account. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
As these issues often clog up ANI and because a ban may be reset if the community agrees that the account is a sock of Fadix, I have opened Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fadix (2nd) for further comment. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

IP posts the Jyllands-Posten cartoons on the talk page of a muslim[edit]

About ten minutes ago, (talk · contribs) told us to remove the images of the prophet Muhammad from Wikipedia. A few minutes later, (talk · contribs) posted the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammad on the talk page of Is a stern warning enough? Or has this happened before? Is this something to keep an eye out for? AecisBrievenbus 00:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've issued a level one vandalism warning to User: Corvus cornixtalk 00:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Level one seems on the low side for what was clearly a deliberate attempt to provoke an editor's religious sensitivities. BencherliteTalk 00:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I think a level 3 (formerly "blatant vandalism") would havew been appropriate. OhNoitsJamie Talk 00:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd have no objection to deleting the edit--or even to oversight it. DGG (talk) 00:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It does no good to jump the queue, or admins will remove it at WP:AIV for not having given the user the full series of warnings. Corvus cornixtalk 00:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The warning should be for use of copyright images in a context where fair use is not allowed. The religious sensibilities of someone who makes what appear to be legal and other threats from a single-purpose/single-edit IP address shouldn't count for anything. Argyriou (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The edit was clearly in bad faith and an attempt to provoke the other anon. "The religious sensibilities of someone..." - they are still a person and deserve respect. Let's not make a bad situation worse by suggesting that we only care about people who are nice to us and others can be treated like crap as long as there isn't a copyright violation in the process. Mr.Z-man 00:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I strongly disagree. This user has an issue with the images. We have made a consensual decision not to let such issues change our stance. But that doesn't mean that shoving such images in the face of the user is alright. When the user views articles about Muhammad, he or she may expect images of Muhammad. But no users expects to see the image when clicking "You've got a new message." This was a clear and deliberate attempt to offend a muslim user. AecisBrievenbus 00:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(double ec) Agree with Z-man and Aecis. Just because someone makes an apparent threat does not mean that it's open season for others to retaliate. BencherliteTalk 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Corvus, there is no rule that says that warnings must always start at level one. The level of faith required for each warning is illustrated at Wikipedia:WARN#Multi-level templates - a bad faith edit can get a level three warning straight away. No admin will say "he's vandalised past a level 4, but never had a level 1, so I'll let him off for now". BencherliteTalk 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no rule, but it has always been my experience that if a vandal doesn't get four warnings, the person doing the vandal fighting is the one who gets slapped in the face for reporting it to WP:AIV (and not even getting a notice that the nomination has been removed) so that the vandal can continue with their efforts. Corvus cornixtalk 00:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Re Corvus: I changed the AIV rules so that a full series of warnings wasn't required (which is unneedlessly bureaucratic) to a more sensible, more likely followed way of reporting - if an editor has vandalised, knows they're doing it, and hasn't stopped, only a lvl4 or a lvl3+4 is needed. If an admin insists on the former, they really really shouldn't have the tools unless they can show at least an ounce of common sense. Will (talk) 00:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Corvis' hesitation is rightly felt, we've seen the sort of backlash he describes before; however, I think that community consensus on this is that for either the image use, or the generally hateful use of the images, a higher level warning would be acceptable. Both, taken in provocation oriented context, clearly have community support for either the lvl 4 or the 'One chance warning'. And that's kind, i'd put a month long IP block in place if I had the buttons. ThuranX (talk) 01:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Its just a generic residential IP, a month would most likely be overkill by about 29 days. Mr.Z-man 01:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Meh, I'm no good at understanding IP to English translations, so it's jsut as well that I lack the button for that, although wouldn't a generic residential IP mean that it's one that's more or less tied to a household? ThuranX (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is really bad that Argyriou think it is OK to attack Muslims. Here people can go to jail for this kind of attacks. The user should get a long block. --Kaypoh (talk) 01:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Woah! Point to one single solitary thing I have said which says that I think it's ok to attack Muslims. I demand a retraction and an apology immediately. 03:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corvus cornix (talkcontribs)
I misread the part about the level one warning. If you think this attack should get a level one warning, it means you think he should get away with attacking Muslims. But when I read it again, I see you just think that you must give a level one warning and go up to a level four warning or the admins won't block the user. My English is not so good. Now I give you a retraction and apology. By the way, I think a level one warning is not enough and he should get a long block or a higher level warning. --Kaypoh (talk) 04:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I was flabbergasted at the accusation, and probably reacted harshly, but I didn't want that sort of reputation. Corvus cornixtalk 05:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it really offfensive that Attiq Ur Rehman thinks it's ok to attack free speech. In a free country like the United States, where Wikipedia is located, people are free from the censorious behavior of religious "authorities". People like Ur Rehman should go to jail for their attempted censorship. Argyriou (talk) 19:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, so if you block someone, you hate Muslims. But not blocking them means you hate Muslims, too? Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
By all means, that's not any sort of behavior I'd want to see encouraged or tolerated. Racial, cultural, and religious attacks must be non-starters in our community. Definitely the user should have been warned and monitored, and blocked if they had continued. I'm inclined to see the single edit from in a rather negative light, but I have to admit it's pretty hard to accurately read intention from a single text-free edit. In context, this is essentially posting a shock image on someone's user talk. Definite no-no. This seems to be resolved, for now, pending new developments. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Obvious baiting should be removed, if persistant block the offender. WilyD 19:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's absolutely unacceptable for that IP to have posted those pictures. There's no need to go through the traditional warning process in this case, the same way we wouldn't go through it for a vandal who used slurs against a gay editor, or a jewish editor. We'd block that account immediately. Seeing as it's an IP, blocking isn't a first-choice response, but we certainly shouldn't be tolerating it. SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:SandyGeorgia, User:MastCell, User:Eubulides POV issues on Wikipedia:Asperger_syndrome[edit]

Asperger's Syndrome is a complex disorder in which functional deficits co-occur with areas of talent. This has been demonstrated clinically in large scale studies.

The article, and the small group of editors currently prevailing there, reject and revert any contribution which attempts to include this information. This has been going on for quite some time.

I placed a POV tag on the article, and added some material as a start. I knew a certain skepticism prevailed, so i stuck with the highest quality sources, world-famous researchers and research centers, peer reviewed with PMID's, etc. Within 24 hours my work was expunged, the POV tag repeatedly removed, and I received several threats to my userpage.

Not to take up too much of your time, but to recap,

I added this ...[17]

User:SandyGeorgia deleted the POV tag, due to my low edit count. She insists I need the group's permission to place the tag. She also moves my contribution to the trailing section [18]

The inevitable debate ensues in Talk, and I insist the tag is not placed by group consent, but precisely to indicate there are is an ongoing debate (and to welcome the reader to visit the debate in Talk.) I replace the POV tag, and polish what little material i have had chance to add thus far. User:MastCell then moves the tag from the Article to a subsection : [19]

I move it back, explaining that I find that POV applies to the entire article : [20]

I add a dozen or so sources to support this in Talk, here:[21]

User:Eublides removes the POV tag once again. He then removes my contributions to the article (with 2 out of 3 sources) - without so much as waiting for me to reply in Talk. [22]

Obviously I am not a newb; in fact an old timer who invoked his Jimbo-given Right To Disappear. But that shouldn't matter.

I am saddened that a newb coming here, regardless of his sources and good faith should be required to ask permission to simply disagree, and can expect his edits to be summarily zapped. I also have apparently accused of being "off-wiki canvassed" or some such thing. Anyway, you get the idea. Sitadel (talk) 05:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Drive-by tagging is an issue which has no good resolution; that is, when individuals bring up arguments about the neutrality of an article which have either been settled before, or which have no basis in fact. Often, in these cases, editors come to the conclusion that there needs to be an agreement that the disagreement is substantially different from those which have come before, and been addressed. --Haemo (talk) 05:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Talk page review of the situation begins here, along with links to off-Wiki canvassing and another fine example of a civil discussion towards consensus among the regular editors at Asperger syndrome, who all six unanimously agreed the POV tag was unwarranted and worked towards incorporating Sitadel's concerns. Because of ongoing off-Wiki canvassing, this article is going to need extra eyes. (I notified Eubulies and MastCell they had been mentioned here.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little unsure of your problem here. I found this on the talk page of AS.

I'll second what Colin has said, and add that the material proposed by Sitadel (talk · contribs) is sourceable and relevant. There will inevitably be some back-and-forth about how to present the sources most accurately, but no one is out to get anyone and I think all of the people who have commented here (including Sitadel) share the goal of making this a better article, so let's work from there. One point of Colin's that deserves special reinforcement is that on an article like this, which has been the subject of extensive discussion and collaboration, it's often best to come directly to the talk page if one of your edits has been reverted, and discuss it. Often that will lead to a solution everyone's happy with, whereas reinserting the material without coming here just gets everyone worked up. MastCell Talk 18:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This does not sound like they are opposed to the content you are trying to add. I'm not sure this is the best place for your question. I'd suggest you need to work with the user on the talk page to reach a consensus, at least give it a week. Then possibly go for mediation. David D. (Talk) 05:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
To be fair, Mastcell has not been a problem, and on second thought I shdn't list him here. The problem is, specifically, I have not been allowed to add a POV tag even tho everybody admits a POV debate is in progress. It has been reverted 3 times now. What's that tag for, again? Perhaps the reader would like to join this discussion.
I have not been allowed to edit the article, my material was removed within 24 hours, despite the quality of the sources.
I appreciate Mastcell's invitation to discussion, but honestly - if i don't have the right to place a POV tag on an article undergoing a POV discussion, nor the right to add two sentences citing neurological studies in medical literature - if i must advocate for these very unsubtle and basic things - what can I expect to come out of a week-long debate?
In any case, my problem is with what has occurred, not what is about to occur. I do welcome MastCell's comment and reiterate I have no real complaint against him. Sitadel (talk) 07:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(afterthought) It is easy to forget (I have sometimes forgotten) that wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy. Six 'regular editors do not trump a newb. It's policy that matters, and opposing points of view should find comprises within policy. It is precisely the tension of disagreements that improve an article, by highlighting controversy and illucidating all sides.
But all views must be given an equal chance. I am not allowed to edit the article, yet the opposing editors are making hourly edits. I am not allowed to add a POV tag, even tho a POV tag was added by SandyGeorgia some months ago when she wished to introduce changes. The prevailing group of editors demand concessions they themselves refuse to offer.
Long story short, one editor cannot demand a POV tag be removed, and cannot summarily delete well-sourced contributions. Sitadel (talk) 08:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If everyone is aware there is a POV problem I wouldn't worry about the tag. Just try and reach a compromise on the talk page and then add the text. I imagine the reason your edits are being reverted is that you are not close to a compromise yet. If the topic is controversial it is quite normal to workout the text on the talk page, or even a subpage, before adding it to the article. David D. (Talk) 07:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The reader is not aware there is a POV problem. Perhaps the reader would like to participate in the discussion! Sitadel (talk) 08:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Well if you get it sorted out fast enough there would be no need. Do you imagine this will be a long protracted fight? It will if you spend a lot of time here. As far as I can tell there is nothing unusual about just getting the job done without tags. It's not like the article is wrong, its just an absense of another view. How long do you thjink it will take? David D. (Talk) 08:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I just went to the talk page to see what is slowing down the process.

Sitadel - this has been discussed before, you are pulling information from the archives which has already been dealt with - in some cases, twice. The page requires new information, because we've already dealt with this. Three times as of 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC) As SG said, much of this would be good in the HFA page, which is quite bare of content and has I think only 3 soures. HFA does not equal AS. I'm reaching the point of asperity. WLU (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you don't have a case for the material you want to add, that would be why they are removing the POV tag, there is consensus against your additions. You need to work closely with Mastcell since he clearly saw an the need for some content to give more balance and might be able to craft something with you that has appropriate sources for the AS topic. David D. (Talk) 08:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>I am one of the 'orrible editors who threatened Sitadel. Though actually, the threat which we (myself and SandyGeorgia) made was to point out the WP:3RR in case Sitadel attempted to replace the POV tag three times in one day after multiple editors removed it. It is not a threat since neither I nor Sandy are admins, so we can't block someone. And we have pointed out to Sitadel, possibly to the point of exhaustion, that on wikipedia, high-functioning autism, autism and Asperger syndrome are not the same thing. The references Sitadel pulled out of the archives were all about HFA, autism or general autistic spectrum disorders, and therefore not appropriate or specific enough for the Asperger page, which is a featured article. And as I am quoted as saying above, these very articles have been dealt with repeatedly (thrice now), with exactly the same arguments and comments from both sides. The one RS discussing advantages of AS in processing fine-grained details is on the page (though it is specific to the autism spectrum rather than AS, and therefore a stretch to include it) is included here. WLU (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed the comment about the 'right to disappear'. I understand the right to disappear, but if it's official, if you really disappear (as opposed to merely leaving the project or simply not editing anymore), then do you have the right to come back under a new identity whenever you feel like it? User:Zeraeph recently invoked her right to vanish during an arbitration hearing. I believe that the right to unvanish should be made publicly and at least in Z's case, through the arbitration committee. If it's a matter of ceasing to edit, then no RTV is needed. If it's a true RTV, and involves admin, bureaucrat or something other than simply abandoning an account, then my opinion is that the right to unvanish should happen through some sort of official channel. Otherwise, my opinion is it's not the right to vanish/unvanish, it's just sockpuppeting. WLU (talk) 12:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sitadel is not Zeraeph (talk · contribs), IMO. Sitadel is, however, posting and revisiting exact text well discussed multiple times in archives that has been spread across at least three autism activist websites by other former editors posting on websites with Zeraeph, who was in regular e-mail contact with at least two other former AS editors. Canvassing on the autism articles is and will remain an issue. ([23][24][25][26]) Extra eyes will always be needed; we added {{recruiting}} to the talk page. Sitadel's list of sources has been covered over ... and over ... and over. The sources are either not about Asperger syndrome and/or have been refuted by other more reliable sources, and every other editor (at least seven now) who has looked at them has come to the same conclusion. Nonetheless, we worked in one of Sitadel's points even though it's a stretch to include the info non-specific to Asperger's, and even though we then had to add the refuting text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) speculation on who I am in real life is inappropriate here.
David, I will take you up on your suggestion to work with MastCell. I must point out the following tho,
a)Most of those sources did not receive a syllable of discussion in Talk. They were ignored. You can check this for yourself.
b)We cannot argue - ever - that sources have "already been dealt with in Talk." It is wikipedia's very heart and soul that new people come along, or existing people take up interests in new topics. WikiPolicy nowhere mentions that sources may be dismissed because they have already been discussed in the past.
c)SandyGeorgia's repeated mention of off-wiki canvassing and of Zaraeph has no bearing on the issues i present here, and serves only to besmirch my good-faith. She has presented no proof that I have engaged in off-wiki canvassing, have been off-wiki canvassed, or that I am a user avoiding a ban (I am none of those things.)

These assertions are unfounded, untrue and ultimately irrelevant. Sitadel (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel, you are misreading my post; please assume good faith. Readers unfamiliar with the situation could have been left with the impression from the previous post that you are Zeraeph; I clarified for your protection and specifically to avoid your name being besmirched. I have not said you canvassed or that you are avoiding a ban; I have said you brought back (verbatim, I believe) text that is spread across three off-Wiki sites. That this article suffers because of off-Wiki canvassing can't be ignored, and is a legitimate ANI issue (content disputes aren't usually in ANI territory). And every point/source that you raised was discussed on talk, addressed, dealt with and even incorporated in one case. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
assume good faith ? I did not bring those sources 'back' from 3 off-wiki sites, that list was pulled from the Talk archives of that article right here on wikipedia. If I had, it wouldn't matter. Sources are sources. They do not become invalidated by appearing elsewhere, nor by previous discussion. This speculation on your part is untrue, Ad hominem and irrelevant. Please find an appropriate forum in which to discuss them.
I'd like to remind the spectator that all of this was brought on by my introduction of three well-sourced sentences and a POV tag. Sitadel (talk) 18:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I am completely indifferent to your real life identity, but I am interested in your previous wiki-identities because (as in the case of Zeraeph) some people, not accounts but people, have been banned from editing wikipedia; it is a person that is banned, not an account, which is why sockpuppeting is considered a bad thing. I would say that this is a polysyllabic discussion of every single source you ressurected from the archive. Sources can be dismissed now, if they were dismissed previously and no new reasons have arisen to reconsider them. They were rejected now for the same reasons they were rejected in the past. The problem isn't new people bringing up new points, it's new people (possibly, I've still not had confirmed or denied if Sitadel was one of the individuals who brought up these points in the past, like User:CeilingCrash or User:Species8471 or any of the various anon IPs who were present in past discussions of this issue) bringing up the same points. Sandy's saying that someone is engaging in off-wiki canvassing, and that is why we may expect multiple people coming to the page on this point. As I've said before, new information and studies that support your point will be added to the page, but right now there is little to verify that Asperger syndrome is accompanied by advantages (beyond the one already noted in the page, though it is a stretch as the source appears to discuss the autistic spectrum rather than Asperger specifically). Wikipedia includes verifiable information, not truth; right now the opinion that AS can be beneficial in some areas is not verifiable, though it may be true. WLU (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)The polysyllabic discussion, [27] mentioned above is one day old, at about the time i posted this notice. I didn't take part in that discussion, I was busy here. Now you're saying "it's been discussed, done deal." Honestly this is sophistry that fails the "laugh test." Sitadel (talk) 22:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki means quick. All responded very quickly to your comments, and it's not like the main or talk page is locked. Your comments will be read and responded to irrespective of when they are made. The basic failing on all accounts is that there is no reason per the sources available to support your position. It's a basic failing, which you can reply on a study-by-study basis, or you can provide more sources, but please keep in mind why the previous ones were rejected. WLU (talk) 17:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


am i editing wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ?kjdfng83 (talkcontribs) 07:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. If you would like to play with Wikipedia, feel free to edit the sandbox. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't help but feel that this is somehow related to this edit [28] who is telling these newbies (assuming it isn't the same user that has been lost all this time) to post here to check if they are able to edit? - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
There is definite similarity between this user's post, and the one above, but assuming good faith i have given ?kjdfng83 a welcome note, plus a message about their username, which seems inappropriate--Jac16888 (talk) 07:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

who are you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ?kjdfng83 (talkcontribs) 07:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A garden variety Wiki admin, who are you? - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
And I heard Roger Daltry's voice in my head. Maybe I should get to sleep. 07:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Or just stop watching CSI--Jac16888 (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


Seeing teh dramaz around here, and loving the title of the above section. What this place needs is the following suggestion;

Attention everyone. Go edit an article.

Regards, dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 08:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I missing something? GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 08:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
[29] Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 09:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Odd page creation[edit]

Not sure where this should be asked, but it seems that IPs can create anything in the talk namespace. Is this an intentional feature of the MediaWiki software? GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 08:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It's not perfect, but it is there because they should be allowed to comment if there is no such comment to begin with.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah, okay, that clears that up. I was seriously confused about the page creation. Note that the editor who created the (now-deleted) page might need to be warned, as he/she seems to be using these talkpages to create a good deal of Harry Potter "plot" and "ending" pages. Thanks, GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 09:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll take a look into it now.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I've given the IP a warning not to continue these activities.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible return of indef. blocked user Lysdexia?[edit]

A user (Dacium) posted a notice here regarding IP, who he/she suspects is the indefinitely blocked Lysdexia. Checking through the contribution list, that IP has signed comments with the name "Lysdexia" at least twice (here and here), and seems to have a similar pattern to Lysdexia. I've filed a sockpuppet report as well. Thanks. --Ckatzchatspy 09:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Mortgage Guaranty Insurance Corporation[edit]

We have a new user who seems to be intent on a hackjob insertion of a non-notable event about this company: see [30]. As I am much believe this user might violate 3RR to reinsert it, I bring it here. I am tempted to break 3RR myself - this doesn't strictly count as BLP, but it follows the spirit of BLP, and I do believe WP:IAR may suffice. Someone please roll this user back and block if this continues.
PS. It appears this user has edit warred over this before, and has used his/her IP to add it: User:, User: The Evil Spartan (talk) 09:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Already warned, one more revert will bring it to 3RR. I would probably consider reverting him as reverting simple vandalism and therefore exempt. Stifle (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


User Trivialist (contributions) deleted a section unnecessarily in an article I monitor. He has made many contributions in a short time. It looks as though most of his contributions are suspect, though I am at work and cannot follow up at the moment. This is either a "self opinionated hacker" or a case of subtle vandalism. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

They've been here since September and have no warnings on the talk page, so this seems one off - you should ask the user on their talk page before bringing it here though alex.muller (talk) 10:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Mike0001[edit]

On February 5th, User talk:Mike0001 edited the Rough Collie article by adding some NPOV remarks, an image of his pet collie, and a spam link. I reverted the changes and left him a level 1 NPOV warning. The next day, he put back the image again[31], which was again removed as it did not comply with WP:IMAGE (doesn't illustrate the text) and the article is far too short to support anymore images. Two days later (i.e. today), Mike reverted that removal, as well as edits in between calling it "vandalism"[32]. I undid again, and apparently he has decided that he is going to edit war over the issue. We have been bac