Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

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WikiProject Albums (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Result of RfC re: categorizing all works by an artist by genre[edit]

User:Robert McClenon has closed the RfC: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music#RfC_on_categorizing_all_works_by_an_artist_by_genre. IMO, this means we should not be adding genre categories to categories like Category:Lady Gaga albums or Category:Lady Gaga songs. In past discussions, some editors took issue with this. I am wondering, how can we move forward, or what changes need to be made to album categories on a mass scale? ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:29, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Update needed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Album article style advice?[edit]

Any updates needed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Album article style advice, based on the RfC result? ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:05, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: FA nomination for Almost There (album)[edit]

Just a reminder to anyone interested: the article for Almost There (album) is up for featured article status. It is one of the best-selling Christian records of all time and a high-importance article in the area of Christian music, and any all project members are invited to comment on or review the nomination and help see if it fits the featured article criteria. The nomination is starting to lose attention and might be archived soon, so any comments are appreciated! Toa Nidhiki05 16:06, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Unassessed articles tagged as stubs[edit]

Hi. Currently, Category:Unassessed Album articles has over 21,000 pages in it. Of those, around 1350 are currently tagged as stubs. Would the wikiproject support or object to a bot assessing all of those pages as stub-class? --DannyS712 (talk) 06:23, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I worry that they will remain perma-stubs and might actually be better served with a PROD. I can't imagine that all 1350 meet NALBUM. Walter Görlitz (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
The problem with PRODding them all is that there are definitely notable albums among them... for example, just scanning the first page of the category alone, I can see Holidays in Eden, an album by the very notable British rock band Marillion, which has two reliable reviews (there are certainly more out there) and reached the top ten in three European countries.
I've started going through all the unassessed album articles (there's about 65,000 of them) and trying to tag them for class and importance, but it's a project of several years' work, no doubt about that. Richard3120 (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Holidays in Eden had several problems, and it was far from a stub! Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
I have no problem with you assessing them automatically as stubs but please be sure to use the parameter "auto=yes" so that they are placed in Category:Automatically assessed Albums articles. Thanks. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 18:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Agree with Starcheer, also there are stubs that are more notable than FA articles, such as Spending the Night Together so stubs should be judged individually as per WP:NEXIST

thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: there isn't a Wikipedia article with that title, so I'm not sure which album you are referring to. Anyway, I've been finding that very few of these albums are genuinely unequivocally non-notable... many of them seem to be country music albums that have never been rated, but almost all have charted on the Billboard Country Albums chart, and many of them on the Billboard 200 as well, so they certainly pass WP:NALBUM. Richard3120 (talk) 17:39, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

AllMusic genre sidebar[edit]

I honestly think the AllMusic genre sidebar can be used. I made a few edits trying to remove a genre from an album infobox because it was in that sidebar, then adding some genres from sources that I thought were reliable, but they have still been reverted. Do you think the AllMusic genre sidebar can now be used for genres, or should it remain unusable? This might lead to another serious debate, so before you decide your answer, please take your time....SirZPthundergod9001 (talk) 08:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

...You haven’t presented an actual reason to change our stance on this...You should probably start with your explanation on why you feel we should change our stance on this. Sergecross73 msg me 12:41, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
This section should explain a bit of the reason.... User talk:4TheWynne#Burn My Eyes SirZPthundergod9001 (talk) 21:50, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
That was covered in the last discussion that's linked to (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 54#"Sources to avoid" section), where the proposal "The following sentence should be included: 'An exception to this is if there are no other reliable sources mentioning a song's genre'" is rejected. EddieHugh (talk) 22:14, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Eddie, that sentiment isn’t represented in that discussion. In fact, I say the opposite in it. Sergecross73 msg me 01:03, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Really? I did say that it "is rejected" in that discussion. EddieHugh (talk) 12:56, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Oh sorry, I missed the rejected part at the end of your sentence. Yes, you’re correct, that proposal was rejected. Sergecross73 msg me 15:19, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
SirZ, I’m still not seeing your exact rationale as to why it should be considered reliable. I only see you saying that’s itd be convenient to your efforts to source some genre...that’s not a valid reason. Sergecross73 msg me 01:16, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Not sure if I am understanding correctly but based on the discussion they linked I do not think SirZ is necessarily proposing that the guideline be changed but just asking for clarification, since their attempts to remove the Allmusic sidebar genres from an infobox were reverted by another user. I believe that other user is arguing that because there is allegedly no other source listing the genre, the Allmusic sidebar can be used as a fallback. I think what might be good is to clarify the guideline to explicitly state that the Allmusic sidebar should not be used, even as a fallback; right now it just says it "should be avoided" which is a bit ambiguous in this case. Boomur [] 19:02, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Unreliable - per our past discussions on this, and the fact that nothing has changed and no counter-argument has been proposed. One of our recent discussions on it showed that the sidebar stuff doesn’t even come from Allmusic, but rather, is farmed out and populated from some other source. I’m not finding the most recent discussion on it. Walter Görlitz, I think you were the one who discussed this in the past. Do you recall the discussion? Sergecross73 msg me 01:16, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Unreliable. Someone wrote that the "genre cloud" is machine-generated and not created by a human. If a review mentions a specific genre, then it is reliable, otherwise, don't dance with it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:24, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Unreliable Per Walter. Unless Allmusic's reviewer mentions a genre, it should not be used, and the sidebar isn't reliable. Toa Nidhiki05 01:29, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Is an album release date "obvious" enough that a citation should be removed from an article?[edit]

There is a discussion open at Talk:Life After Death that I am hoping to get some input from people who are familiar with guidelines and conventions around music albums. In short, there is a dispute between an IP user who believes that a citation to the date that the album Life After Death was released should be removed from the article because the release date is so "obvious" that a citation isn't necessary. Two other editors (aside from myself) disagree either on the talk page conversation or in edit summaries to the article itself; we believe that there is no harm in leaving the citation where it is. Any input would be appreciated. Aoi (青い) (talk) 19:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

If anyone finds it necessary, and it’s available, there is zero reason to not include it. Sergecross73 msg me 21:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Well, I certainly disagree with that. We are not under an obligation to satisfy pointy pedantry merely because it was demanded by someone with an overly-fastidious understanding of empiricism. I'm not saying that is happening in this specific instance - I'm neutral on that score. As to the general question of whether album dates need to be sourced - if the year of release is on the release itself (the spine or the liner notes), it's catalog data of a published work, and shouldn't need a third-party citation (WP:SKYISBLUE). If it's not on the release, or if day-month-year date of release is in the article, I don't see any reason why a commercial link to an official release (WP:SELFPUB) can't provide that - I'm noticing many exhaustively-sourced song articles are sourcing digital release dates from places like Tidal and Spotify, which is reasonable given that release dates are rarely sites of controversy. In the absence of genuine, good-faith dispute about a release date (such as an actual disparity in the sources), that ought to be enough. Chubbles (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
@Chubbles: I was under the impression that the year quoted on an album's liner notes was the year the songs were copyrighted, and not necessarily the year the album was released. Richard3120 (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
I ran a quick check earlier and only one source, AllMusic, had an actual release date for the album. It matched what was in the infobox. There have been, in the past, conflicting dates for album releases in various sources. They are also situations where an album is released in one market on an earlier date than others, or there are staggered releases. There are also instances where the work is released independently, then picked-up by a major label and re-released (as opposed to re-issued after re-mastering, etc.). In all of these cases, a referenced date is merited, at least in the article. I don't see that being the case for Life After Death, so it's not clear why the release date is contentious (see SKYISBLUE above). Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:54, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
  • support citation. What if a vandal puts in the wrong date and non-involved editors do not have a copy of the album and have no way to verify? Our music articles are filled with drive-by IP editors putting in all sort of WP:PROMO junk and making changes that are difficult to verify if you leave out citations. I strongly disagree that the release date of this album that most people have never heard of and don't care about is WP:SKYISBLUE. Just because YOU think it is a super important and exciting piece of work, doesn't mean the average person has ever heard of it or will ever hear of it. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
If you are not familiar with the 'drive by IP editing' (by editors who often show zero respect for our sourcing rules) I am talking about, take a look at some of these version histories:
--David Tornheim (talk) 00:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I replied on the album's talk page. The assertion is that it was released on "March 25, 1997". No physical album that I've seen gives an exact day of release. Maybe a reissue might give one for the original in its liner notes. SKYISBLUE for an exact date? Surely not. If someone challenges it, a source is required; this is basic policy (WP:BURDEN). Challenging an exact date seems reasonable to me: as discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 58#AllMusic dates, there's no shortage of dates from a supposedly RS that are definitely wrong, so readers/editors are justified in asking where the information comes from. And there are the problems that Richard3120 and David Tornheim mention. EddieHugh (talk) 00:30, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I'll note that I did not state SKYISBLUE applies for an exact date. Chubbles (talk) 13:08, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support citation. There is nothing SKYBLUE about a release date: It's not "obvious" to people who don't have the physical album. This is simply Verifiability at work. Release years can be cited by the liner notes if no other source is available (hard to imagine though), but specific release dates absolutely need reliable sources. SteveStrummer (talk) 18:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
    • It's also not obvious to people who have the physical album either as there is usually only a year, which isn't always the year of the album's release. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Does that mean that liner notes shouldn't be used at all as RS for release years? SteveStrummer (talk) 00:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I suspect that they could be used for the release year, provided that other RSes don't contradict that, but I think we're trying to narrow the complete date. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
  • This is akin to saying we can't use the publication page of a book to confirm the author or the year of release of that book, or the name of the publisher. Yes, it's not obvious if you don't own the physical book, but we do not need an Internet source to meet WP:V, and I can't imagine it is useful to anyone to be putting in citations for the physical album if just the year (as opposed to day-month-year, which would require external sourcing) is included. If the consensus is that this citation arms-race is both required and preferable...well, I'm sure Aristophanes would be proud. Chubbles (talk) 12:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Yet, feel free to show me the release date on any liner note. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support citation Should not be difficult to find. It’s not always obvious. Toa Nidhiki05 18:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Chubbles: unfortunately, as I mentioned above, the year given on an album's liner notes is not the year of release, but the year of copyright of the songs on the album. Obviously in most cases these will be the same year, but the problems arise for albums released in the first couple of weeks of January, where clearly the albums have been pressed some weeks before (i.e. the previous year) in order to have them ready for distribution. A good example of this is Little Earthquakes by Tori Amos, which was released in the UK and Europe in the first week of January 1992, some two months ahead of its release in the US and Canada. Depending on the pressing plant, some copies of the album state "1991" on the liner notes, some state "1992", and others even have one date on the liner notes and a different year on the LP/CD itself. So no, the year printed on the liner notes is not always a reliable source for the year of release. Richard3120 (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The AU Review[edit]

I'd like to propose adding Australian publication The AU Review to the list of sources. Contributors/editors include:

I would've likely been able to list a few more if I didn't run out of free previews on LinkedIn. Yeepsi (talk) 10:06, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Support - per above. I’ve used the site historically without issue as well. Sergecross73 msg me 01:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support: it's not a publication I've ever used myself, but I've come across it in the past and I haven't seen any problems regarding its reliability. Richard3120 (talk) 15:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support as the staff have good credentials Atlantic306 (talk) 17:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support I've used the source every now and then and they seem very reliable. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 12:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Featured article nomination for Almost There (album)[edit]

I’ve renominated Almost There (album), a mid-importance article in this project, for Wikipedia:Featured article. Any editors are welcome to add to the discussion at the nomination page. Toa Nidhiki05 13:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)