Talk:Éamon de Valera

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Former featured article candidateÉamon de Valera is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
June 14, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
August 24, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Irish people of Basque descent[edit]

Spleodrach historians agree that Vivion de Valera existed and that he was Basque. Source = — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Look at the archives for this talk page, search for father. You will find that no evidence that Juan Vivon de Valera ever existed. The link you have, just repeats what was on the birth cert, which was put there by his mother. Spleodrach (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Spleodrach, did you read the link? I think either you never actually read the link or you read it too quick and need to read it again. Ronan Fanning is stating that he existed and that he was Basque. (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Did you read it? All information about Juan Vivon de Valera came from Catherine Coll, De Valera's mother. People looked for many years for independent evidence of this man's existence and none was ever found. he apparently lived and died without ever leaving a paper trail. The most glaring being no marriage certificate was ever found for De Valara's parents. Again, read the archives. It's been discussed before many times. Spleodrach (talk) 18:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Spleodrach, I am getting the impression that this is just your personal opinion. I think the article should convey what academic historians have to say and not what one guy on Wikipedia thinks. (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I have no opinion, I'm looking for evidence. You have provided none, just a historian whose evidence comes from one biased source. Same source say De Valera's parents were married, but as I have already pointed out, no marriage cert was ever found, even though all marriages, church and registry office, were at the time. It says the father died in Denver in 1884, but again no death cert was ever found. Also, other sources say the father was Cuban. Spleodrach (talk) 20:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Spleodrach you say you have no opinion bit yet you precede to criticise academic historians saying they are using a biased sources. I feel like in situations like this (One random guy on Wikipedia vs the academic consensus) the academic consensus should not be supplanted by the views of one random guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi (open-proxy anon). As per the archives which Spleodrach has directed you to (and which, likely, in a previous guise you were at least familiar with), DeV's father is variously given as Argentinian, Basque, Spanish, Cuban of Spanish descent, Portuguese of Jewish descent, and other nationalities and ethnicities. Across multiple academic and research-driven sources. Favouring just one derivation (and then warring over it from an open proxy IP) is not in keeping with consensus. Either the "academic consensus" - which you reference. Or the editor consensus - which this project upholds. Slán/Уви́димся. Guliolopez (talk) 23:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
In case it is needed to be known, there's currently a sockpuppet investigation open of the IP. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Guliolopez I can't seem to find a source that denies De Valera's father was born in the Basque Country, could you provide one? (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Not engaging with block evading open-proxy hopping sock any further airtime beyond this:
  • Proinsias Mac Aonghusa (author "Eamon De Valera - Na Blianta Reabhloideacha" / editor "Quotations from Eamon de Valera") gave Juan Vivion de Valera as being born in Matanzas in Cuba in 1853 (Irish Times, Jun 1999).
  • Brendan Ward (Columbia University, New York) claimed to have evidence of the same - including Cuban birth/baptismal certs/etc (Irish Independent, Nov 2005)
  • J Edgar Hoover (paranoid FBI director) ordered an investigation into DeV - based on a suspicion that he was a "Portuguese Jew" and/or "Cuban". The former almost certainly complete nonsense. (Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J Edgar Hoover, Summers, 2011)
Instead of spending your time flicking between proxies, try reading a book instead. Slán. Guliolopez (talk)
Guliolopez you cite three sources. The first is a journalists who has no academic credentials whatsoever, the second is an academic who could not get his findings published so he was forced to make a documentary and the third was the suspicions of a former FBI director. If those are the only sources you provide that state de Valera's father was born in the Basque Country then it seems that is nothing but fringe opinion and should be ignored195.159.175.68 (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
There is no policy to ignore potentially conflicting sources. And so I will not support changing the text and cats.
There is however a policy to ignore block evading IP hopping LTA trolls. And so I will do that. Bye troll.
Guliolopez (talk) 17:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

De Valera, Asperger’s and psychiatry[edit]

Not sure if this can be included, but I found it an interesting review of some biased and downright nasty attacks on him. For the record, I read the book when it came out and found each diagnosis unpersuasive. With subjects like de Valera it seems necessary to get some balanced conclusions rather than the wild opinions that pass for them. Fergananim (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Obviously it can't be included, its from a blog and those "diagnoses" were made after the subjects were dead. Spleodrach (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Goldwater rule Irishpolitical (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

November '18 edits[edit]

CnocBride wrote: I don't really understand how my contributions were not neutral? The only section I can see as being remotely seen as violating WP:NPV is:

De Valera's political beliefs evolved from militant [[Irish republicanism]] to strong [[Social conservatism|social]], [[Cultural conservatism|cultural]] and [[Economic Conservatism|economic]] conservatism.<ref name="Ferriter, 2007">Ferriter, ''Judging Dev: A Reassessment of the Life and Legacy of Eamon De Valera'' (2007), {{ISBN|1-904890-28-8}}.</ref> While being venerated as a messiah like figure within Fianna Fail, he has been characterised by a stern, unbending, devious demeanor. His roles in the Civil War have also portrayed him as a divisive figure in Irish history. Biographer [[Tim Pat Coogan]] sees his time in power as being characterised by economic and cultural stagnation, while [[Diarmaid Ferriter]] argues that the stereotype of de Valera as an austere, cold and even backward figure was largely manufactured in the 1960s and is misguided.<ref name="Ferriter, 2007" />

Which was not heavily modified. I only expanded information about his time in office and stated that he was a 'prominent' politician, a neutral world for a person who is notable in a certain field, which every person who has studied de Valera is. I never intended to cast any of my own political beliefs upon de Valera and the article itself and I will gladly remove any parts that you believe were not 'adequately sourced' and were not written from a 'neutral point of view'. I'm a firm believer in NPV and I would like to fix this issue. Miraheze-Logo.svg CnocBride | Talk | Contribs 23:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi CnocBride. I reverted because to me, the change didn't seem like an improvement. While there are obvious issues such as the unreferenced "venerated as a messiah like figure", other issues inlcude:
  • reference to "the botched Irish revolution" (my emphasis); this is an odd interpretation of the Rising, to say the least, and shouldn't be presented as fact in WP's editorial voice;
  • "released after public opinion against the British response to the rising turned sour" is only one of the four reasons presented later in the article for why Dev's sentence was commuted;
  • "He returned to Ireland" is disjointed - no explanation of why he wasn't in Ireland.
Regards, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Bastun (talk · contribs) Ok, thank you, the last part was lacking clarity, clearly. The fact I used the word 'botched' was because the Rising did indeed fail initially and led to the execution of some of Ireland's top political and military leaders at the time. The public opinion one was, well, it was the first one that popped into my head and I believed it was the most prominent reason. Regardless, I have made edits to the issue. Miraheze-Logo.svg CnocBride | Talk | Contribs 17:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
There's a rather large body of work that suggests a "failed" Rising was the whole point... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)