Talk:Brandywine Creek (Christina River tributary)

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Comments[edit]

Needs some work e.g. not really true "The confluence of the creek with the Christina was the site of the founding of Fort Christina, the first settlement of the New Sweden colony, in 1638." Fort Christina is on the other side of downtown Wilmington from Brandywine creek. It could use something about: the huge drop in elevation which led to the "water wheel industrialization" in the area, e.g. along the race and DuPont's gunpowder mills. Also the first major ecological disaster in the US (damned dams stopped the fish runs). The school of painting, etc. Obviously I need to brush up on some of this before writing it down.

But don't some real Wilmingtonites read this. Please contribute!!

a real Wilmingtonian comments[edit]

yes the article is lacking a bit, but I am not an expert. One glaring error I am very aware of are both references to Brandywine Creek State Park. The author has confused this with Brandywine Park, which is a city park once under county management but now under State Park management. Brandywine Creek State Park is something else. It is upstream from the city and still further up from Hagley Museum. It is an entirely rural park and situated in the countryside (what reamins of it). It is a common mistake and locals here confuse them all the time. To make matters even more confusing, is another New Castle County Park called "Brandywine Springs" which is not even on the Brandywine, but is on the Red Clay Creek and is situated a few miles west of the city. It is the site of a former amusement park.

Great Pix[edit]

Fantastic. Smallbones 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Box, confluence[edit]

The box is nice, but does look a bit clumsy. Maybe some re-ordering of the pix would work. The confluence is listed in the box as being in east Bradford township, whereas I had put a week or so ago that it is in Pocopson Township. Checking further at http://www.eastbradford.org/publicinfo/Maps/OfficialMap_122305.pdf it looks like (far south west corner of map) that it is on the border between the two. It looks like a minor point to go into much detail about, but I may do something here. Smallbones 09:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The relocation of the picture is definitely better. As for the location of the confluence, I totally missed the statement about Pocopson Township, so between the 2 of us, we make a good team in figuring out its actually the boundary. VerruckteDan 22:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Possibly useful sources[edit]

This is a nice start - needs lots more references. Here is the DCNR page on the Brandywine creek watershed. Here are the USGS GNIS pages for Brandywine Creek (with alternate names listed), and its East and West Branches. At some point I will add data from the PA Gazetteer of Streams II which lists lengths, watershed areas, elevation of source and mouth, etc. All three streams are included in this book. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

USGS GNIS and WP Rivers Infobox or Geobox[edit]

United States Geological Survey U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Brandywine Creek (Christina River tributary) says:

  • Heads in Pennsylvania at the confluence of its East at West Branches, 1.1 mi NW of Lenape, and

flowing SE to the Christina River on the SE edge of Wilmington, Delaware.

  • My recommendation is to cite as the source:
The WikiProject River page offers both the Infobox and Geobox as options. While there has not been a project wide conversion, many prominent rivers now use the Geobox. Personally, I feel that it is far superior to the Infobox. The Geobox displays all the information that the Infobox does, and goes well beyond and is very customizable. VerruckteDan (talk) 01:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
As for the source, a confluence cannot be a source for a river as defined here. The West Branch is the true source based on this definition and the East is a secondary source. The way the Geobox currently displays things is correct per the definition of source. VerruckteDan (talk) 01:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a big difference between a river and a river-system or watershed.
  • "Largest Rivers in the United States" (HTML). United States Geological Survey.
  • Please see how the Mississipi River and Missouri River are treated:
  • NOTE: by your argument(s) above, the Mississippi River source should be the same as that of the Missouri River; but they do not have the same published "source". National Geographic and others cite the Mississippi-Missouri "river system" when making exaggerated claims.
  • Several other factors are also used to determine a "river's" source, primarily: directionality and water flow volume.
  • Please leave such determinations to geographers and hydrologists, and cite officially published information rather than making extrapolations.
  • Otherwise, please use the officially published source coordinates (like those from GNIS, and not those of East Branch and West Branch tributaries).
  • Please use "ref name=" tags and cite templates to indicate the sources of each piece of information in your articles, and that means a reference to a specific page containing your source information; and not a general publication without a specific page reference, nor a web site rather than a specific web page URL. LeheckaG (talk) 10:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I am not opposed to using GeoBox River rather than InfoBox River. GeoBox template had been updated, so make sure you read the GeoBox 2 documentation. *What rubs me the wrong way about how I have seen GeoBox used (not the template, but its common use):
  • Lack of reference citations, some GeoBox template fields make it a little more difficult than InfoBox to include them. Specifically, if you use individual lat_ and long_ fields, rather than including a coord template, it makes it more difficult to cite where a coordinate came from.
  • Specifically, it seems article contributors are omitting the corresponding coordinate _note fields, where you can site your reference.
  • By definition: a river is a linear feature; a river does not have a Wye or Y; while a river system have many tributaries. i.e. Brandywine Creek (Christina River) as a river should have only one mouth and only one source. If you write an article about the river system or watershed, then more than one source may be cited. LeheckaG (talk) 10:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I can live with that, but would suggest that this topic be posted at WikiProject Rivers so that it can be discussed widely so that all editors will have a common understanding. VerruckteDan (talk) 15:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I added the river template to the Talk page, so it is now also flagged as WikiProject Rivers. LeheckaG (talk) 01:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Names list[edit]

I don't think the list of alternative names adds anything. Just like every river/creek has some legend about some rock that some girl/Indian princess jumped off of; I'd think every river/creek has got a half dozen alternate names plus a half dozen misspellings. Please let me know if I'm wrong, but I'd just remove the list.

Smallbones (talk) 04:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added similar lists to several articles about other rivers, using the same database cited here. The database is maintained by the USGS and "variant names" have been compiled over decades from historical maps and other publications. Since the database isn't particularly user-friendly and its material isn't currently included in web search results, I think it increases Wikipedia's value as an online tool for historical research and reference to place these alternate names in a web-searchable context.
I do think the list should be formatted into columns and alphabetized (and moved lower in the article); I also like to include a wikilink to Geographic Names Information System to provide some background for the source of the information (Christina River, for an example). --Malepheasant (talk) 04:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok with me - maybe just seperated by commas but I definitely don't like the current format. I hope you see why the following list looks like overkill "Brande Wine Creek, Brandewyn Kill, Brandewyne Creek, Brandywine Kill, Brandywine River, Brandiwine Creek, Brandy Wine, Brandy Wine Creek, Brandy-wine River."
Smallbones (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for GA[edit]

I think the article looks pretty good, but there are definitely some areas for improvement. I always like to use a model article and have been the main author on several Pennsylvania stream FAs, which may be useful as models (see Larrys Creek as one example). There arename se also several tributaries of the Columbia River that are FAs and nice models, such as Johnson Creek (Willamette River).

I'll look again. Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I can add some material from resources I have that may be hard to come by otherwise - the length of the main stem and both the East and West Branches, the area of the total watershed and of each Branch's watershed, Canoeing, Native paths that crossed the Brandywine.

Canoeing might be especially relevant. In the lead there is mention of scenic river status, but I don't have anything to follow it up with. Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Have to look it up in a copy of Gertler's Keystone Canoeing - I know the main stem and both branches are in there. Fishing is also possible - both branches and some other tribs are approved trout fishing waters - see this PFBC map. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


History and Name sections I think I might combine the name section with the History section (or perhaps make it its own section before History). I would start the History with the Lenape ( chronological order). There could be a sentence early on in History that gave the total number of variant names, then these names could be given in context. I also think similar names do not have to be given in the main text, but could be referred to and perhaps given in a footnote / ref. For example, the current sentence The Brandywine was called Wauwaset by Lenni-Lenape (or Delaware) Indians and Fiskiekylen, or "Fish Creek" by early Dutch and Swedish settlers. could be split up to two like The Brandywine was called Wauwaset by the Lenape, and other Native American names for it included Suspecough and Trancocopanican. (then give the two Wawaset variants in a footnote). The something like The early Dutch and Swedish settlers called it Fiskiekylen, or "Fish Creek", and the Dutch heritage is also reflected in Fiske Creek and three variant names using the Dutch word "Kill" or stream. Then give those in a footnote. I like the current The current name may be from an old Dutch word for brandy or gin, brandewijn, or from the name of an early mill owner, Andreas Brainwende or Brantwyn.[4] sentence. Perhaps mention the number of the very similar Brandywine spelling variants, then these could go into a foootnote.

Immediately above you can see my original reaction to including all the names, but your suggestions look a lot better than just ripping them all out Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I had seen that - forgot to mention Paulins Kill, another model FA which does a nice job with Names in the History section, including Dutch and Native American names. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Discharge There are six USGS stream guages on the Brandywine (two each on the main stem, East and West Branches). See here. This information should be in the article.

Hard for me to read and make sense of - the key variable is "long term median discharge" ? and the units are "cubic feet per second"? Below I've starred* the numbers I'd include if the above is the right interpretation. Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
  1. West Branch Brandywine Creek at Coatesville, PA 01/10 13:00 3.87 39 49.0* -01/10 12:00 -- -- 49.0 1.3
  2. West Branch Brandywine Creek at Modena, PA 01/10 12:00 3.11 76 70.0* -- 12/05 07:00 -- -- 70.0 Ssn
  3. Broad Run at Northbrook, PA 01/10 12:45 2.12 7.5 14.0 --
  4. Marsh Creek near Glenmoore, PA 01/10 13:15 1.68 11 9.00 --
  5. Marsh Creek near Downingtown, PA 01/10 09:30 1.56 8.9 28.0 --
  6. East Branch Brandywine Creek near Downingtown, PA 01/10 13:30 2.23 59 90.0* --
  7. East Branch Brandywine Creek below Downingtown, PA 01/10 12:45 2.74 116 134* -12/09 06:00 -- -- 134 Ssn
  8. Brandywine Creek at Chadds Ford, PA 01/10 13:30 2.15 323 399* -- 12/09 05:30 -- -- 399 Ssn
  9. BRANDYWINE CREEK AT WILMINGTON, DE 01/10 12:45 12.08 347 408*
Maybe put this in as a table - with coords if I can find them? Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I would give the average discharge at the Wilmington station (408 ft3/s) as this gives a good idea of how "big" the river system is. I would mention the five other stations and use the link to each as a ref. I might give the discharge for the lower (further downstream gage) on each of the Branches too (again to give an idea of their sizes). Again looking at model articles can help give ideas on how to treat this. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Watershed and Geology I would add a section on the watershed / drainage basin and the Geology.

Geology might be especially important given the historic importance of the fall line, but where do I get a source? Smallbones (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
SOme sources below - do not have any for Delaware. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

More later, hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Data dump[edit]

The overall drainage basin size for Brandywine Creek is 300 square miles (777 km2), with 2.19 square miles (5.7 km2) of that in Delaware. Brandywine Creek is 20.01 miles (32.20 km) long from the confluence of the East and West Branches to the mouth. It is 9.6 miles (15.4 km) from the confluence to the Delaware state line (the length in Pennsylvania).

The West Branch watershed is 132.7 square miles (344 km2) in area (all of which is part of the larger watershed given above), and it is 32.7 miles (52.6 km) long. If you add the lengths of the West Branch and main stem, it is 52.7 miles (84.8 km) long.

The East Branch watershed is 124 square miles (320 km2) in area (all of which is part of the larger watershed given above), and it is 25.0 miles (40.2 km) long.

The average precipitation in the watershed is 42 to 26 inches (1067 to 1168 mm). The watershed is in the Piedmont Uplands Physicographic Province in Pennsylvania and the rocks there are shale, slate and limestone for the main stem (after the confluence). The branches have schist, gneiss, marble, and limestone rocks.

These are all taken from [1], except the length from the confluence to the mouths, which is from [2] (also duplicates the branch watershed areas).

The watershed is in four counties: Chester, Delaware, and Lancaster in PA, New Castle in DE. See this map,[3] which also gives bacteria counts in the main stem and branches.

There is a water budget for the East Branch here.[4]

Found a book on the watershed association.[5] and the watershed association web page here. Woo hoo!

Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Shaw, Lewis C. (1984). Pennsylvania Gazetteer of Streams Part II (Water Resources Bulletin No. 16). Prepared in Cooperation with the United States Department of the Interior Geological Survey (1st ed.). Harrisburg, PA: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Department of Environmental Resources. Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) (no ISBN)
  2. ^ Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (2001). Pennsylvania Gazetteer of Streams (PDF). Prepared in Cooperation with the United States Department of the Interior Geological Survey. Retrieved 2008-02-19. Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  3. ^ http://pa.water.usgs.gov/pc38/data/Brandywine%20Bacteria%20Map.html
  4. ^ http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2005/5113/
  5. ^ http://books.google.com/books?id=GuCrofXMx-UC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=Brandywine+Creek+watershed+association&source=bl&ots=5lcQTGjEIL&sig=0t2tUcKQmW1ypOPHFJGNZnR9qE4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA189,M1

For some PA geology, see this map for Physiographic Provinces and this map for the eras of the underlying rocks - look to be Pre-Cambrian, Lower Paleozoic, and Cambrian. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I've got a lot of work to do! Smallbones (talk) 03:51, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I really think this has more than enough info available to be FA eventually. Thanks to Choess too! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

More thoughts and data[edit]

Recreational and natural areas: quite a bit of the Brandywine is protected by parks. Going upstream, there's Brandywine Park (Wilmington), then Brandywine Creek State Park, then the privately-owned but publicly-accessible Woodlawn Estate. North beyond Lenape, there's East Bradford Township's River Park; Marsh Creek State Park lies adjacent to the East Branch, and Struble Lake Recreation Area lies more or less at its source; on the West Branch, it passes through Hibernia County Park. There are also a number of hiking trails: the Brandywine Trail and the Struble Trail are relatively long and follow the Brandywine for most of their lengths.

History in general: Canby's book is somewhat idiosyncratic but gives a good idea of the "big picture" of Brandywine history. The section on industrialization conveys it well, although it might do well with a summary lede. Essentially, the falls of the Brandywine made it unsuitable as an artery of transportation, so it was lined with mills instead, which made Wilmington the flour-exporting center of the country in the post-Revolutionary years. Eventually the railroads did arrive (East Brandywine & Waynesburg, 1861; Wilmington & Reading, 1869); both took their share of mill traffic, although the latter was really intended to forward coal to Wilmington, with unfulfilled notions of making it a coal port. The Brandywine Valley in Pennsylvania was more agricultural than industrial, although there were still plenty of mills, particularly at the steel town of Coatesville and the paper town of Downingtown; OTOH, Canby writes that in his youth, West Chester was a farmers' town. There was some ironmaking on the upper Brandywine, most notably at Hibernia and Isabella, but it was moribund by the 19th century.

Historical sites: Gibson's Covered Bridge and Lenape Bridge are also on the NRHP and are directly over the Brandywine. There are more historic sites in the Brandywine Valley than you can shake a camera at, not that I'm not trying. Choess (talk) 03:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I added the bridges. Don't let me fool you that it was a scientific process finding the NRHP sites on the river. I started with the Delaware and Chester County lists and sorted through. I had problems with groups and areas and figuring how far away from the creek to go. There are prob. more bridges in that group. Let me know what else you think needs to be on the list, or just add them yourself. (I'm also fighting an uncontrollable urge to put the stargazer's stone in Embreeville, Pennsylvania on it, but it's not NRHP (!) and we don't even have an article on it!
I'll have add Parks & Transportation sections. I think the roads that cross the river (US1,13,30) are quite important as well as the mainline (otherwise I'm weak on RRs). Maybe this fits in with the industrial theme. Yes, Canby's book is idiosyncratic, maybe I can find something on the agricultural center in there. Thanks for all comments, any photos, and any other help. Smallbones (talk) 06:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I did some rearrangement of the history section to give a more chronological flow and reduce the number of paragraphs. I hope it's an improvement. Choess (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Split off "Brandywine Village" article[edit]

Brandywine Village, a key center of U.S. industrialization, deserves an article of its own, not just a sub-section of the History section of an article about its river. I propose to create a new article, Brandywine Village, and to move at least some of the detail from this article to that one. PRRfan (talk) 17:09, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Dubious[edit]

Elam is a populated place per: "Elam". Geographic Names Information System. United States Geological Survey. August 2, 1979. Valfontis (talk) 16:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)[edit]

I'm adding a relevant problem. Ref 24 is a broken link. The correct link is http://explorepahistory.com/hmarker.php?markerId=1-A-226

Please correct Reference 24--I don't know how.

Kathleen Weber — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.243.182.59 (talk) 01:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


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