Talk:Van Beethoven family

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Leave the 'v' in van or von lower case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Proposed merge from Lodewijk van Beethoven[edit]

I'd like to propose a merge of Lodewijk van Beethoven into here (props to Rex Germanus for writing this excellent article here from scratch). The main reason is that while he has some notability, it is mainly in reference to his highly famous sons and grandsons. Thus it seems the Van Beethoven family would be the perfect place. (A redirect from Lodewijk van Beethoven to his entry at this article should of course be kept) CharonX/talk 17:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

merge - unless there is a mass of info to prove different. I don't think this constitutes a seperate article but would look good in the main ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 00:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge away Lodewijk isn't notable enough for his own page. --Folantin 14:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Lodewijk is an incredibly minor musical figure, a merge here is appropriate. Moreschi Talk 14:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ancestry Ethnicity[edit]

Despite his surname, Ludwig van Beethoven was only a quarter Flemish[5][6][7]; indeed, his grandfather Lodewijk was the last van Beethoven to be fully Flemish.

I'll ignore for the moment that Folantin removed "Dutch surname", and go on to the main point, as explained over and over. The 'new' (all seem to be from around 1900) sources speak of nationality, strange given the header is ethnicity. I provide a source, and an extremely reputable one as well, and it get's replaced by ones who aren't near equal in weight. Given the apparent mix up in ideas and will to misinterpret by some here, let me make it easier for you.

It's really simple, if you want to understand, yes all his ancestors were from Flanders, and yes hence Flemings, but no they're weren't ethnic Flemish, so no Beethovens ancestry isn't Flemish, but from Flanders. So of course the books provided in support of the "Flemish ancestry" advocated by some here, use Flemish, but in a regional sence. They can't be used to disprove my sources, they only reinforce it. Rex 14:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Problem solved. --Folantin 14:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
No, not nearly! ANCESTRY relies on ethnic groups, not place of birth. Someone from Congo, doesn't say he is of Congolese ancestry but Mongo, Luba or Kongo or any of the other 200 ethnic groups!BTW It's funny you know, in the source you provided you claim that Beethoven made a reference to his 'Flemish ancestry' by refering to the Count of Egmont. Do you know what Van Egmond is? A Dutch noble house. Ironic innit?Rex 14:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, problem solved indeed, since many sources mention or discuss Beethoven's ancestry, and none are about his or his ancestors ethnicity, we can have a section about his ancestry (Flemish), but not about his ethnicity. If no one before Wikipedia has thought it relevant to point out specifically that Lodewijk Van Beethoven and his ancestors were ethnically Dutch, we shouldn't be doing that either. Fram 14:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
No, you can't decend from a region. "Londoner ancestry"? Don't make me laugh.Rex 14:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Oddly enough, our article on the play refers to Egmont as "Flemish" as does Maynard Solomon. He was born and died in the territory of what is now Belgium. Learn to live with the English language and WP's policy on WP:V, Rex, and stop engaging in pointless original research. --Folantin 14:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, you're one of those people who doesn't read literature, but other wikipedia articles who then googles some books ... right, now I understand. I can add any properly sourced information I want. So don't you dare try to accuse me of OR. Oh, and People have pointed out Beethovens Dutch part ancestry. Why don't you take a look at JSTOR. Rex 14:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in Beethoven because of his music, not because of his ethnicity, nationality or whatever. As far as I remember, Beethoven wasn't particularly interested in such things either (Alle Menschen werden Brüder and all that jazz). But if we're going to have an article on his background then I'd rather follow reliable sources and common English usage. Two of his major recent biographers refer to his ancestry as "Flemish". Enough. --Folantin 14:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me get this straight, JSTOR and Blom are not reliable sources, and 100 years ago is recent in your eyes?Rex 14:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you give us a link to the relevant JSTOR page? We have provided plenty of specific links supporting our statements. You have only given links to general works about ethnicity, not about Beethoven and his family. Give us links to books or scientific journals claiming that Beethoven's grandfather and great-grandfather were Dutch, and we can continue this discussion. Otherwise, I think pretty much everything is said. Fram 14:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
No Fram, you didn't provide links. You mostly provided names to some very old books. I was the one with the links. JSTOR and Blom of course, he's very clear indeed.Rex 14:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, hmm, I've provided a link to two recent (within the past decade) biographies by reputed musicologists (including this guy) who use the "F" word. --Folantin 15:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Blom says nothing at all about Beethoven, as you well know. As for TF Howell (ironically, the oldest of my sources, so please stop complaining about that if you are going to use it as well), I gave him as a source in the article, you now give the link to the JSTOR page for that article. Bravo. Howell raises the question "Was, then, Beethoven of Dutch or Flemish ancestry", making very clear again that while "Flemish ancestry" may make you laugh, scientists don't consider it a laughing matter at all. Anyway, the Howell article concludes that "The chief hereditary character of Beethoven was Flemish, and all else was what we now label German."". So the question is answered by your own source: no, he wasn't Dutch, he was Flemish. Can we close this now once and for all? Fram 15:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Both my sources are highly reliable and much more so than google scolar. JSTOR quickly notes that the Flemings was at a time a regional variety of the Dutch, like Hollanders and Brabanders. Blom notes that at that time there was no Flemish. That statement goes for everyone in born there. Also the Beethovens.Period.Rex 15:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
And there I'm afraid we must end Rex's current bout of Dutch chauvinist POV-pushing as he's just been banned for a month for disruption. Again. --Folantin 15:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) (Rex has been blocked for a month, making this discussion rather moot). Both your sources are probably highly reliable, but Blom is about the Dutch in general, and says nothing about this specific example and how it is discussed in those scientific journals which have bothered to discuss Beethoven's ancestry. As for Howell, the other source, I have given the link to a direct quote from him (through Google Scholar, yes), which supports my position, not yours. Unless you can show that Google Scholar misquoted the source, you have nothing to support your statement or your dismissal of the quote. Fram 15:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't really matter anyway as both Solomon (2001) and Lockwood (2005) refer to Beethoven's "Flemish ancestry". The next stage will be to merge the Lodewijk van Beethoven into this article per the discussion above. Cheers. --Folantin 15:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the last I'm going to say about this. I do have highly respectable, and more reliable, sources for the matter at hand. My reference speaks for all inhabitants of Flanders at that time, indeed all Dutch people. To ask for a reference specifically for Beethovens ancestor is hence laughable.Rex 20:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Meertens reference[edit]

For me, this reference does not support the sentence it references. It remarks that Beethoven is mentioned in the Isidoor Teirlink album, and it points to "toponiem", but does not talk about Beets or any other specific toponym. Am I missing something? Fram 14:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

No not really, it notes it's a toponym. Which effectively opens the doors to all places named in a similar manner, from Beets to Betuwe, or that place near tongeren. That's why it says could. You can't be sure about anything other than that it's a toponym. Rex 14:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Rex Germanus, you claim in the discussion above that we shouldn't accuse you of OR, but what you say here is the exact definition of OR. You have a source which states it is a toponym, and then you give one possible origin for it. This is pure original research. I have restated the tag, to give you the chance to finc a source for it after all, but please be more careful that your sources actually support what they are supposed to reference. Fram 14:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The Meertens reference also notes two kinds of toponyms
  1. byzondere (current Dutch: bijzondere, specific), like van nl:Engeland (England), van Wieringen, van Deventer, van nl:Keulen (Cologne)
  2. algemeene (current Dutch:algemene, common), like van nl:Dijk (waterkering) (Dike (construction)), van nl:Sluis (waterbouwkunde) (Sluice or Lock (water transport)), van den nl:Berg (geografie) (Mountain, but really Hill), van der nl:Heide (vegetatie) (Heath (habitat)); Do note Sluis, Berg and Heide are also names of cities/towns/villages/hamlets
If van Beethoven is an algemene place name, I don't consider orchard to be likely, beet still is an alternative form for nl:Biet (Beet); nl:Hof meant (when masculine, the neuter means court) garden or orchard; Flemish still uses it for vegetable garden (groententuin). My guess (yes, original research) is "living near", "coming from", "owner of", or "maintainer of" the "beet garden" or "beet gardens". Erik Warmelink 03:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
To make it a bit less original research, "Ernest Closson and Gustave Reese, Grandfather Beethoven" (which already is a reference) mentions on page 372:

In the vicinity of Antwerp, Malines and Brussels, the double ee is today still pronounced e. And the petitions signed by Louis, and even by Johann, in many instances offer these signatures: Biethoffen, Biethofen, Biethoven, Biethof, Piethoffen; even "il signor Biethofen" makes its appearance, figuring on an opera-libretto

Erik Warmelink 04:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In a reaction to Fram. My source said that it is a toponym.I merely added possibilities and clearly marked them as such. As possibilities, not as facts. Please do read more carefully before you accuse people of OR.Rex 20:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is the solution for the Beethoven name :
1. Ludwig's ancestor in the XVth century was Jan van Bettehoven, who lived and died in Kampenhout 1485-1571 His descendants were van Bethoven and van Beethoven.
2. Bettenhoven (Bettincourt) is a village in Belgium
3. According to toponymist Jan Segers, in DBNL (Haspengouwse nederzettingsnamen (Mededelingen van de Vereniging voor Limburgse Dialect- en Naamkunde, Nr. 73). Hasselt 1993), the name Bettenhoven means hoeve (hof) van de Bettingen, the Bettingen family being the folks of Betto (or Berto, a masculine name).
I believe this argument is sufficiently strong to discourage further speculations, home-made etymologies or goropisms, no need to cut up the name and imagine beetroots and gardens. Riyadi (talk) 15:23, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

For those who would still believe in the "beet garden" theory : beetroot is a cultivar plant developed in the XVIIIth century. Sugar beets were developed in the XIXth century. The name Van Beethoven hence is older than the exploitation of beets. Riyadi (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2014 (UTC)