User talk:Badagnani/Archive 6

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Harrod Blank

Hey, thanks for your help expanding the Harrod Blank article. I just have one question - you listed him in the category "people from orange county, ca". Berkeley, CA is part of Alameda county last I checked. Is that an error or did he used to live in Orange County and I'm just unaware of it? Plymouths 16:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sweet and sour pork

I have no idea where it comes from either! One version means "Old/ancient (time period wise) meat". The other is purely onomatopoeic. (and sounds like Gollum!)

Personally, my theory is that the dish comes from non-Chinese sources (Mongol, Manchu, etc?), hence the funny name. --Sumple (Talk) 05:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting theories! I'm not too sure about the "complaining meat" theory though - gulu "咕嚕" is usually onomatopeia for the sound of something rolling. It can also mean "muttering (in a complaining sort of way)", but that is more commonly written as gunong 咕哝. Still, an interesting theory...
Incidentally, the article draws a connection between sweet and sour pork and tangcu liji, sugar and vinegar fillets. While sugar + vinegar does taste sweet and sour, I think that sweet-and-sour sauce is quite different from what is referred to as sugar+vinegar sauce. The latter is made from Zhenjiang vinegar and is dark in colour. --Sumple (Talk) 05:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


Do you mean the 干しぶどう (hoshibudou)? Those are raisins. -- ran (talk) 07:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Sara Watkins.jpg)

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Missouri Fix

Ok I tracked the problem to the bot mishandling unicode this time. I'll fix it. -- Drini 00:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

fixed now. -- Drini 03:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


I checked it, and I have nothing to say. My dad mentioned that it exists, but i have not asked him further. I'll look into it more, and expand it if necessary. I also congratulate you for the fact that you knew of a topic that I didn't know. I don't know much about modern Korea, anyway. I am a Historian, not a social scientist. Odst 03:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


It is possible to be wrong, yes. If we get new information that supercedes older data we usually replace it; the authority record for Anahid Ajemian cites the 1950 ed. of the International Who's Who in Music; so it's entirely possible that new info from a family member or census data would change the date. I can try to do more research if you want and find a more recent source. --FeanorStar7 17:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

No info on Baca--FeanorStar7 23:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Wiktionary


Hi, in similar cases, the real dictionary I have, iirc, lists the whole compound word under "表外音訓" (something like "exceptions"). I don't know if there is a standard way Wiktionary does it, though.—Gniw (Wing) 18:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I see that you (or someone who saw our discussion) went ahead and added the pronunciation.
I randomly tried a couple of words from a couple of random pages in my dictionary that have the exceptons (魚 and 恭). Wiktionary does not know about these exceptions, and since 魚 is such a common word, I suppose it means that Wiktonary does not have any existing policy about these and the exceptions aren't generally listed. So I guess whatever we do is ok (at this time at least, I guess).
BTW, thanks for the Wiktionary link. Knowing that the Japanese "on" is "saku" and the Korean pronunciation is "jak" is very important to me: it means that the colloquial Cantonese word /dzak3/ (to press) is not really colloquial after all, but an existing word, with the standard meaning, but with an ancient pronunciation.—Gniw (Wing) 08:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Ci fan tuan


I am pretty sure we don't consider it a dumpling. As for whether it is dim sum or not, dim sums are basically snacks/desserts and ci fan tuan (usually just called ci fan here in Toronto) is not really a snack, so I would tend to not see it as dim sum. I'll ask other people & see what they think.—Gniw (Wing) 18:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I guess I really am not too familiar with the English notion of a "dumpling"; if the zongzi is considered a dumpling, then I guess you are right that ci fan tuan probably is one too. I am not really sure myself.
For the "dim sum" classification, it turns out that the answer is "yes" (it is dim sum). This hinges on whether "北方小吃" (of which ci fan tuan is) is considered dim sum, and the answer seems to be yes.
As for the referencing, Instantnood is the one who did it first. I saw him did it and followed suit.
BTW, only one day after I started dabbling in Wikipedia again, I already felt the anger and stress (not to mention the addiction) that made me quit last time (no, it's nothing to do with you). After sorting out your questions, hopefully within the next couple of days, I will try harder to quit again.—Gniw (Wing) 20:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


Just when you think that bizarre state could not possibly be any worse, you stumble over more disturbing stuff like Gippeumjo. Thank you again for this and your countless other contributions.

Glad to see you've found the Korean term yourself. I cannot even add a romanisation box, as I don't know whether the 조 is supposed to be pronounced like 쪼. Wikipeditor 21:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Re your question – the special label "Chosŏn'gŭl" is invoked by context = north. In Wikipedia articles, it should not be misunderstood as an indication of orthography differences between the North and the South, which may or may not exist, but is simply a tribute to the fact that the name or term in the box somehow relates to North Korea (or Yanbian?) rather than Korea in general. Wikipeditor 19:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Phil Hellmuth

Phil Hellmuth and/or Phil Hellmuth Jr. are the same person as far as articles are concern, Phil's Father Phil Hellmuth Sr. isn't as notable and there for not mention in the mass media unless specifically referred to in conjunction with his son. It would be different if his father too was also famous, either reference works, but I agree with your edit anyway so the reader isn’t confused. ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 08:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Chrysanthemum tea

Looks good to me! Good job. --Sumple (Talk) 05:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Melungeon census

If you think the figure is wrong, then remove it from the article or ask for a citation in the article itself, from where I took the figure. Otherwise, you are trying to expand the total amount with generalities of some distant figure. Les Invisibles 07:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: David A. Yeagley

Hm, they're persistent. Sprotected it for a week, and we can see how things look after that. Luna Santin 19:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Gippeumjo, was selected for DYK!

Updated DYK query On February 7, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Gippeumjo, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Thanks for your contributions! Nishkid64 21:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fixed. Thanks. I had to actually reword the entire hook, because the nominator had initially written this: [1] I had to rewrite it as it was potentially libelous. Nishkid64 21:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Spam Links

This is a request for the external links on Regina Spektor to be 'culled' to within acceptable limits, as per WP:NOT and WP:EL. I would do it myself, but I'm apparently not an expert on the subject, and I keep getting reverted. Thanks. Hawker Typhoon 17:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Dang or Tram

Vietnamese people are referred to by their given name, not family name. Only westernized people would use the the Western order. DHN 20:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think someone already did it in Deng (surname). DHN 21:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
See User_talk:SMcCandlish#Template:Vietnamese name. DHN 21:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Dang Thai Son's family name is Dang. There is a mix-up with the template that should be resolved soon and all articles utilizing the template would be updated to reflect that. DHN 21:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ive never ever heard of it.

since it uses the -geum suffix, I presume it is a stringed musical instrument. I'll look into it, but since its not my most favorite subject, I don't think i'll dig a very big hole. Odst 02:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

hey did you know?

The kayageum was invented by my great-great-almost-all-the-way-up-grandfather. isnt that so cool? Odst 03:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

look at this...

1. jokbo 2.[[2]] 3. I hope you can read Korean!!! 4. Odst 04:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


theres actually a more detailed jokbo that my relatives have that describe the achievements each person... one of em said that he made the Gayageum... I forgot his name, though. Odst 04:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Chinese noodles article

Hi. Can you please explain your reason for reverting the recent set of edits I made (75.---) to the Chinese noodles article? I mainly corrected and added some Cantonese and Taiwanese pronunciations. Thanks. Cgkm 23:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

(you said:) Hi, if your edit was done in that way I apologize. But when I see simplified characters deleted and substituted with traditional ones (instead of giving both to supplement one another), it makes me doubt the veracity of the rest of the edits.

If this offended you, I apologize. 面 is one of those characters that was the result of an ambiguous simplfication, since 面 is also a traditional character in its own right and does not mean "noodle". I would have put both, but I wanted to conserve space; perhaps including both simplified and traditional would be better.

(you said:) Further, it's my understanding that Taiwanese and Hokkien are the same language; why the necessity to delete the name "Hokkien" and substitute "Taiwanese" when this language, or very similar versions of it, are spoken also in Fujian, Singapore, etc.?

I agree that Taiwanese and Hokkien are closely related (i.e. dialects of the same language). However, the term "Hokkien" often carries a Southeast Asian flavor to it, and that is how it is used in this article. The Hokkien romanizations provided are how they are spelled in Southeast Asia (Singapore, Malaysia, etc.), and as thus they have Southeast Asian influences (like "mee", "mee pok", "mee kiah", "hor fun", and "laksa") that do not appear in Taiwanese or other dialects of Minnan. In fact, "hor fun" and "laksa" are borrowed terms, not native terms, and hence are even more foreign to Taiwanese speakers.

I did not delete any "Hokkien" references in the article; I merely added "Taiwanese" ones. The Taiwanese romanizations I have added are more accurate in some sense since they come from a romanization system. Cgkm 00:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Decade links

I haven't been able to figure out how to use AWB to change the decade links to music-specific decade links in music articles only. I will see if I can find a way. It would help if the names of the music-specific decade articles weren't so incredibly long (tedious to type). Thanks —SaxTeacher (talk) 05:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


  • Pidgin

1. an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.

I strongly urge you to read WP:NOT and WP:OWN as to what Wikipedia is. A wiki is a collaborative effort by many. A huge number of people contribute to Wikipedia through anonyamous IP's for many reasons and their contributions are no less valuable than registered ones. Blocking my contribution to the article when it had good merrit is a breach of what Wikipedia is. I hope you will revert your changes to pinyin as your reasons for reverting are not policy and not everyone must discuss changes to a main page on the talk page before doing so. 06:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Samul nori

Your revert was uncalled for, and seems to have been made without looking at what was invloved. Wikipeditor (talk · contribs) made an edit with no explanation, not even the required courtesy of an edit summary, marked it minor when it wasn't, and made changes that went against the sources given in the article. Why do you think that that should be allowed to stand? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 12:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in, but since when are the sources given in the article authorities on Revised and McCune-Reischauer Romanizations? Wikipeditor 12:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As you gave no sources, the ones in the article are all we have. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 23:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to respond, there are so many people conversing about this. The subject is massively documented, as perhaps the best known Korean traditional genre both inside and outside Korea. It shouldn't be difficult to find many sources discussing the proper spelling, etc. Wait a minute, sources regarding Korean romanization conventions (specifically as regards the differences in romanization when using a space between syllables, or not) have already been provided, explaining the differences. Have you read that material through carefully? Badagnani 23:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

He has since given sources on the Talk page; when he made his unexplained edits, he gave no sources, hence my comments. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you again revert my edits en masse, returning poor English, incorrect wikilinking, etc., as I cannot block you myself, being heavily involved in the dispute, I shall take steps to have you blocked for disuruptive editing. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fortune cookie, crab rangoon

Ermm... I have no idea what either one is called in Chinese, actually. Certainly I've never found myself talking about them in the Chinese language. Do you have a source for the names? -- ran (talk) 03:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the thing is, the best you're going to see are probably ad-hoc translations. The translations you have there at fortune cookie are just a few combinations using synonyms of "fortune", "paper slip", "foretell", and "cookie"; using the same pattern, and using more synonyms that I can think of right now, we can come up with probably another 1000 names, and they would all be "correct". So I think it's inherently pointless to try and come up with a Chinese name for "fortune cookie", because as far as I can tell, "the" Chinese name simply doesn't exist. -- ran (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: Googling suggests that people would translate it as either 幸運餅 xing4yun4bing3 or 籤語餅 qian1yu3bing3. Keep in mind though, that these are not authoritative names, just the names that the Chinese Wikipedia (say) might decide on after resorting to the Google test. -- ran (talk) 04:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Not historical?

Well, if it's not rejected, not a proposal, and not historical, then do I just leave it alone? Or call it an essay instead? It needs some classification. Daniel Case

Consonants in RR

In normal RR, the letters B, D, G and J replace ㅂ, ㄷ, ㄱ and ㅈ iff* these are followed by a vowel letter (including combinations of w/y+vowel such as ㅘ wa and ㅑ ya), hence sogak and sutgarak.

* The exception of course being the letter G as it also appears in ng, the romanisation for jongseong ㅇ regardless of any following letter(s). Wikipeditor 12:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Corn crab soup

Hi, I must say I've never seen this dish, although tofu-crab soup, which the article mentions, I have seen quite often. I'll look out for this, though, and tell you if I do see it. --Sumple (Talk) 21:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Burmese tofu

Hi, thanks for the compliment. Yes, the info already there is accurate. I did take the photo at one of the shops on the shore of Inya lake near the boatclub on Inya Road, Yangon. It's Burmese to hpu, so most likely made from chickpea flour; lucky they had the fresh tohpu set in trays being cut up for frying, with the fritters on the same table in front of the shop. If you look up Burmese tofu in Talk:Tofu you'll relise we've had this discussion before (May 2006).

The name is probably a misnomer as the beancurd tofu made from soybean is called pè bya (lit. pressed peas) and not tofu in Burma. To hpu - there is no f in the Burmese alphabet only 'hp' - and tohu are synonymous; yellow tohu made from chickpea or yellow split pea is also called won ta hpo, and rice tohu hsan ta hpo in the Shan regions as well as hsan to hpu as it's made from rice (hsan) flour, so it's white. I would upload a picture of rice tohu but there's hardly any room. I have no idea how the to hpu - pè bya difference came about, but Shan to hpu presumably already existed when the Chinese beancurd made its debut in Burma. Wagaung 21:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hnapyan gyaw means twice fried in Burmese (Talk:Tofu). Rice flour is hsan hmont or mont hmont (mont = cake, hmont = powder); wheat or gyoun is not staple as far as the Burmese are concerned. I'm not sure if Burmese tofu shouldn't remain in the main article. If it merits a seperate article should it still be called tofu with an explanation of the 'mixup'? Wagaung 22:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If it gets a separate article, it will still be mentioned briefly in the tofu article, with a link to the full article. Of course, we now know that Burmese tofu can be made with three types of powder (four if one counts Burmese soybean tofu as a fourth type). The Burmese tofu article could discuss them all, with photos. Badagnani 23:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll do it thanks to your support. I'll take some pictures of Burmese Chinese tofu (pè bya) and also the stinky tofu version (si to hpu) from a market stall the next time in Burma. Wagaung 00:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

AIV report

Thank you for making a report on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Removing and reporting vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators are generally only able to block users if they have received a final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize even after their final warning, please report them again to the AIV noticeboard. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 05:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Samul nori

  1. You've now violated WP:3RR on this article.
  2. Your behaviour, which has slowly moved from reverting everything that I do, regardless of content, to reverting a large chunk of what I do, to reverting part of what I do on the mistaken claim that it goes against consensus, to the reverting of part of what I do in the mistaken belief that (some of it) is justified by a majority opinion of two to one on the Talk page — all of this is unacceptable. I've asked for others to look at the article, and to comment on your actions. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I read it twice to figure out the meaning :) --Bhadani 10:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
And Mr. Bhadani is so famous for his Wiki wisdom! I doubt if you understood it even after the second reading. Why don't you confine yourself to Simple English Pedia? --—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Kent State

I didn't write the line about Karnow, I wrote the line about Nixon's staff member who counters Karnow's presentation that Nixon was acting in bad faith. I'll look for the actual date that this happened, but your issue is with whomever wrote the Karnow line and did not put a date in there. I didn't so much as remove your edit comment as tear apart and recast the information that I added as you seemed unclear about the fact that both these people were talking about the same event.--Wowaconia 07:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


He did use fix in this context, found at “This time the focus was on a photo of children running from napalm - which was to become one of the most famous and haunting images of the 20th century. [He wondered if it was posed] ‘I'm wondering if that was fixed,’ Nixon mused after seeing the photograph. Haldeman replies, ‘Could have been.’”

There is also this speech from the Oliver Stone movie Nixon which could be from a tape or could be the work of Stone’s screenwriters (he likes to splice in archival stuff into his movies). “. . . The tear gassing, the riots, burning the draft cards, Black Panthers - we fixed it, Al, and they hate me for it - the double-dealing bastards. They lionize that traitor, Ellsberg, for stealing secrets, but they jump all over me 'cause it's Nixon. They've always hated Nixon.”

There is also a lot of stories about Nixon’s view of John Kerry but the word “fixed” is not in there. None of the hard core conspiracy sites that claim Nixon wanted Kent State students to suffer for shouting him down at previous appearances makes any mention of him saying anything incriminating on tape. It would seem that if he had said anything remotely like what you suggest that the people accusing him of directing murder in Kent State would be the first to quote it. Here's one of the conspiracy sites if you want to see if I missed something:

--Wowaconia 12:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yangmei liquor

I haven't tasted it, but I've heard my parents talk about it. It's relatively commonly home made, I think, and is made from Yangmei + Baijiu ("white" rice wine). I'll post here if I find more info. --Sumple (Talk) 23:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated commercial comparisons

Your contribution to Agave Syrup makes comparisons between different producers and includes your opinions - see talk page. I suggest this material stay there until substantiated.

Michael Fourman 10:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Finding sources for Agave syrup

You're welcome, with respect to the cites. My first try was an internet search for "agave syrup" which got nothing. My second try, which was much more fruitful, was (I think I searched for "agave syrup" or "agave nectar"). There are probably more papers there which we could be citing - I kind of lost interest after I found a few good ones. Kingdon 23:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: David A. Yeagley

Didn't unprotect -- used auto-expiring protection (set for a week, hoping that'd be enough). Trying it again, for a month this time. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

That should be how it's set up -- we've only had this auto-expiring option for a short while, now, so the templates and such don't really reflect the reality of it, just yet. ;) It's semi-protected, though. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Go away

Are you just going to follow me and interfere with everything I do? I'm trying to do some work here. --Ideogram 20:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

AfD comments

I've reverted the changes you made to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese musical instrument and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese instrument, as the discussions were already closed (the redirects will remain in place). So there's no need to add anything to them. I'm not going to speedy keep Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese instrument classification, as that does seem like an overly complicated and pretty unlikely search term (at least unlikely enough not to speedy keep). So you may want to add your comments to that discussion. Kafziel Talk 21:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


I reverted your Winnipeg insertion; it's redundant.

Would you say Brooklyn, New York City, New York or just Brooklyn, New York?

I believe this situation is analogous. SERSeanCrane 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't blindly revert

Your revert replaced the redirects I fixed. --Ideogram 23:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Would you please think before reverting. Your revert to Qin schools replaced the Category:Music which does not belong since it already belongs to a category that belongs to Category:Music. --Ideogram 23:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you really have a problem with my copyedit to North American Guqin Association or were you, again, blindly reverting? --Ideogram 23:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Agave syrup

See also "unsubstantiated commercial comparisons" above.

Your reversion was sloppy. The reference to Jalisco is moved to the top. Read what is there - I suspect you must be linked to one of the producers, as that is the only explanation for your behaviour. Michael Fourman 08:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I see no informational merit in the Volcanic link, for example. If these are references for facts that are not available elsewhere, please make that clear by linking them as such - as is now done for the fact about other agave species. Michael Fourman 08:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

There are many sub-pages, some with information about the syrup production

Then make direct reference links to justify these facts - we don't need to give links to the pure marketing hype on the page referenced. Michael Fourman 08:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that bad sources are worse than no sources - unless we have an NPOV source we should not include the "fact" in the article. It just gives added credence with no objective basis. — Agreed? Michael Fourman 19:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You agree that the information is biased and not NPOV, but you still insist on linking to it? I have found a NPOV reference to some of the culinary uses of agave (including sap as syrup). See Agave. Michael Fourman 21:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

One of the references is there - as a reference, and linked as such, since you pointed out to me that this one was an authority for the use of more than one variety of agave.

The Volcanic link you had was to a page with no factual merit, and there was no way of knowing which assertions in your additions you considered to be justified by the pages elsewhere in that site. IMHO references should be explicit, not implicit. Michael Fourman 21:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

This page, which you say you've looked at again, is exactly the kind of page we shouldn't link to. I don't see any useful information here. But even if I did, I think it would set a terrible precedent to suggest that one small nugget of information could justify a link from wikipedia to such a clearly commercial effusion. Much of the junk (particularly the knocking copy and extravagant health claims) that was in the article was taken directly from this source, and fails NPOV.

You put lots of [citation needed] markers against material you yourself had added. You say these pages are references - then reference them properly. Michael Fourman 22:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, you resort to generalities: "this website is good," "this website is not so good." I took the time to read through, type out and interrogate specific pieces of information located in the site and discuss them above. You do not appear to have the interest to pursue these in detail, or am I wrong? Again and again you email with no reference or mention to the information I have submitted to you. Please, show that you are serious about this subject; that really is what is needed here!

I don't think I said either of the things you put in quotes above. Unless you can discuss rationally, read what I say, and respond to specifics yourself, this is futile.

However, let's try another tack: lets get specific on what changes we might like to see to the article. What facts do you think should be there that are not in the current version? What authorities do you suggest for these facts? What facts which are there still require authorities, and do you have authorities to suggest? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michael Fourman (talkcontribs) 22:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

You say

There really isn't much of use on that page other than a couple of photos showing a guy cutting the agave (those are good), some history that may or may not be true about agave's use by Aztecs and Spaniards, information about where the plants grow and how long it takes to grow a plant to maturity, and a statement (which also may or may not be true) that some producers cut their agave syrup with corn syrup.

So what of this stuff that is "on that page" (and it's not really on that page, but rather some clicks away from that page) do you think justifes the link to that page?

For information on growth to maturity try


For some historical use Agave may have been cultivated for aguamiel as early as 1239 CE, according to archeological records. [4]

Aguamiel is available as a drink in some areas, as are various agave syrups. [5]

Aguamiel The sweet sap extracted from the piña (heart) of the agave plant. It is fermented for several days and then distilled to make tequila and mezcal, or fermented alone to make pulque. Aguamiel is sold as a regional drink in the states of Zacatecas, San Luis Potosi, Hidalgo (where sellers generally add chile). [6]

More tomorrow, perhaps, here in the UK it's time for sleep. — Michael Fourman 23:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm no botanist, a logician, in fact. I just searched for various combinations of agave, sap, sugar, sweet, drink then I found aguamiel and added that to the list. — 08:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Michael Fourman 01:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This discussion now continued at Talk:Agave syrup 08:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Michael Fourman 01:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Doublehead mountains

Hi there, thanks for getting in touch. I noticed your other edits regarding Monadnock, Chocorua, and Washington. Very cool project; I'd had no idea that Hovhaness had such a fondness for the wild places of New Hampshire. You're right that both Doubleheads are in Carroll County; I hadn't noticed that before. The one in Jackson is about 30 miles northeast of the one in Sandwich (Carroll County's a big county).

I have no sources to say which mountain he intended to pay tribute to, but my bets are on the one in Jackson: it's a much more significant summit (pair of summits) than the one in Carroll, which is more just a slight high point on the ridge of the Squam Mountains, which are a sort of foothill range south of the White Mountains. Also, Doublehead in Jackson is surrounded by ski resorts, lodges, and numerous other White Mountain destinations. While the Squam Lake area is a resort destination itself, I don't think that the Doublehead in that area stands out the way the one in Jackson does. --Ken Gallager 20:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Loon Lake

Unfortunately, there are two Loon Lakes in New Hampshire: one in the town of Freedom, which is fairly near Mount Chocorua, and the other northwest of Plymouth. There are also Loon Ponds in Gilmanton, Lincoln (near the summit of Loon Mountain), Hillsborough, and Fremont. I'd focus on the one in Freedom, because of its proximity to Mt. Chocorua, but the one in Plymouth is just as close to the White Mountains, so it's a toss-up. Good luck! --Ken Gallager 20:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing near Newport that's officially named "Loon Lake" or "Loon Pond". The most likely lake near Newport would be Lake Sunapee, but there are several other lakes around there as well. It sounds like "Loon Lake" is more of a descriptive name than the name of a particular water body. --Ken Gallager 13:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, this is interesting... For what it's worth, there is a "Loon Island" in Lake Sunapee. It's nearly invisible on the map, but there's a well-known little lighthouse on it. I'd find out if there's any mention of Lake Sunapee in his papers. --Ken Gallager 13:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been away, so sorry about not replying sooner. The historian in Pittsfield probably means Loon Pond in Gilmanton, since there's no water body with the official name of "Loon Lake" or "Loon Pond" in Gilford. Gilmanton, in fact, is just up the road from Pittsfield, quite a bit closer than Gilford. --Ken Gallager 13:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Chinese surnames

Please refer to Template talk:Chinese name and discuss there.--Jiang 03:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

death flights

right on it, man! Whiskey Pete 03:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

"Crotched Hill"

Hello again! There's a Crotched Mountain (topo map here) in southern New Hampshire which he may be referring to (no funny accent on the name, though). Or he may just be referring to any sort of craggy, pointy hill. I can't find any "Crotched Hill"s anywhere in the U.S., at least not in the Geographic Names Information System. (And I see you already figured out where the "Sunkook Valley" is.) --Ken Gallager 10:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


The Catalan name for tilde is titlla. --Rf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

His surname was probably written with ñ because until 1977-78 Catalan was forbidden and many Catalan names and surnames were "Spanished" by the public administrations. --Rf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 17:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

"I bid you adieu"

WP:IBYA or WP:ADIEU. C.m.jones 09:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure that it's by year. 368 x 12 = 4416 yuan or about US$2000 - 3000 by purchasing power parity would not be impoverished at all. -- ran (talk)

Korean Food

I deleted the section as I am new to wikipedia and still learning, so I apologize. I still propose the whole section to be removed because it doesn't belong in "korean food" or "korean cuisine" section. The topic of dog meat itself is controversial in Korea. I just came back from Korea and there were ads all over subway to fight eating of dog meat. You say that it is "widely available" and "some people eat dog meat", but what is the definition of "widely available" or "some people"... To me, widely available is McDonalds in US. So, unless you can prove that dog meat restaurants are as prevalent in Korea as McDonalds in US, "widely available" is your opinion and "some people" is meaningless. You may live in Korea and there maybe two dog meat restaurants in your block, who knows. But that doesn't justify the wording of "widely available" of dog meat in whole Korea. When discussing "Korean Food", you are discussing the culture and life of Koreans and putting dog eating as a section of "Korean Food" gives wrong notion that it is "widely available" and "widely accepted". I am Korean and huge huge dog lover and I'm ashamed that there are Koreans out there that eat dogs, just as I'm sure there are Chinese that are ashamed some of their own eat cats, and Canadiens that are ashamed that there are Canadiens that do barbaric act of killing baby seals for living. The proposal is because dog meat is controversial and is not a representation of Korean culture like the other foods listed. It's only purpose is to draw more controversy and if cat and dog eating isn't in Chinese food section, or other nation's controversial practices aren't listed as "widely available", why is dog consumption listed in Korean food which represents the pride of Korean culture. If i can't just remove it, let me know what i'm suppose to do. If you want to talk about the controversy of dog meat, there's section on wikipedia dedictated to dog meat. -Brandon --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Santaria360 (talkcontribs)

Hmmm... I'm not sure if all of those should be added, I think that 개주 should probably be added to Korean wine. As for Kim Jong il's consumption of dog meat I don't think it is very relevant. Thanks for asking ^^ Daesung 05:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Badagnani, I didn't say that jajangmyeon with seafood doesn't exist in Korea. It is called samsun jajang, as I described in jajangmyeon article. Your revision on Zhajiang mian seems appropriate though. Thank you for the effort, and you might have a better idea on gaesoju than is discussed on this page also;) noirum 08:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Samsun jajangmyeon or ganjajangmyeon would be the correct form to refer to either dishes, but Koreans usually omit myeon (meaning noodle) in typical usage. They sometimes use jajang instead of jajangmyeon, although not as often as in other variants. noirum 08:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
To be precise, the unheated black bean paste is called chunjang, and the heated sauce with other ingredient is called jajang. Note that the chinese word for jajang, 炸醬 is composed of 炸(to roast) and 醬(sauce). You're right that even unheated chunjang is generally marketed as jajang, because chunjang is mostly used for making jajang anyway.
Sadly, I'm not sure about the correct hanja for chunjang. It must be something like 春醬, but I'm not sure. noirum 08:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Temesgen

Hi, I did a speedy delete (thus no discussion), thinking it was (is?) a copyvio. I really hope I didn't jump the gun, but I didn't get the same idea that the uploader is involved with the website. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right, I knew this was the same person who worked on krar and begena but thought Temesgen was a different musician. I've gone ahead and un-deleted the article (which I hope was also not in haste...) and left a note for User:Temambiru. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you on the other points. The PoV writing is common in musician articles (regardless of genre, national origin etc.) as the fans tend to write about the musicians (and I suppose detractors might be equally motivated). There's also the issue, in this case, of editors writing their own autobiographies. That said, I am unlikely (or less likely) to complain about lack of notability, if I feel a particular genre/culture is underrepresented on WP (though I admit this doesn't seem fair, upon re-reading). Think I'll go calm down for a while. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't revert corrections of wikilinking, etc.; look at where the link goes (and what's the point of adding a link to "ethno-fusion" for which there is no article — and unlikely to be one, given that it's an empty neologism?). Also, the same term shouldn't be linked twice within a couple of sentences.

Note that, as the first sentence says that he's Ethiopian, there's no need to say in the second sentence that he was born in Ethiopia. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

  1. If you think that messages from editors about editing articles are merely "bothering", the you seem not to have grasped the concept of Wikipedia — editing together rather than as unconnected individuals.
  2. In what sense is he "from Michigan"? I live in Oxford, but I'm not from Oxford. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Pastes from beans

I've been thinking about this for a while. So for in wikip. there are many articles about many asian fermented bean pastes (miso, dobanjiang, etc.), and now there are two about asian sweet bean pastes (red and black). While the fermented pastes have different methods of production due to the fermentation requirements, the sweet bean pastes are pretty much the same production method. Perhaps what we should do is take the red bean paste article and generalize to something like sweet bean paste? Sjschen 02:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I see that you have created the soybean paste page, do you think it's okay that we move it to Fermented bean paste? I think the latter is a bit more descriptive, though I'm not sure if there are other non-soy feremented bean pastes or sweet unfermented soy bean pastes.Sjschen 02:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Mung, black, navy, and azuki beans are the main kinds of beans made into sweet bean pastes. Lotus is not tech. a bean, but the method for lotus paste is relatively similar. Sesame is not really the same since it's just grinding sesame seeds. Sjschen 02:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest "fermented bean paste" since I'm sure there will be some culture out there that ferments some other kind of bean other than soy and makes it into a paste. Bean paste by itself seems a bit less descriptive since it can allude to both sweet and fermented bean pastes. I agree that the pastes be it from legumes, lotus, or sesame tastes very similar in baozi or tangyuan. Sjschen 02:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Both black turtle beans and navy beans are used for bean pastes. The former is very popular in South china cultures. The other are commonly seen in Japanese sweets and used as a filler for various kinds of non-orthodox mooncakes. Sjschen 02:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "black beans" is that it's a very non-descriptive term, and it solely alludes to the colour of the bean skin. In chinese markets, I've see black beans sold as, " big black beans", "small black beans", "american black beans", and "green heart black beans". Tell the truth, I'm not sure which one is used for either the tofu or the sweet paste.Sjschen 02:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Red (an orchestra)

So far as I can tell, the entire thing is a cut & paste from the website. As I'm sure you are aware, this kind of copyright violation is against wikipedia's policies. I will restore the article, but if you're going to continue to edit it, please remove the copyrighted material (which is almost the entire thing.) Cheers Dina 14:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

For Mijiu

There is some confusion between the Mijiu and Huangjiu,which both are rice based beverage.While Mijiu is primarily Distilled beverages and Huangjiu is Fermented beverage.But sometimes these two terms are often overlapping.So I suggest we seperate the two terms one for distilled one for fermented.--Ksyrie 22:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you.Generally speaking,in China,when we refer the rice-fermented beverage,Huangjiu are mainly the beverage produced in Changjiang Delta and for those based on Rice.There are many other kinds of fermented beverage,normally not recognised as Huangjiu,such as Choujiu.--Ksyrie 22:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I found a chinese article about Huangjiu,where you can find Choujiu and Qingke Jiu one kind of beverage made from highland barley in Tibet are generally not regarded as Huangjiu.[7]--Ksyrie 22:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I will remove Mijiu to Rice fragrance Baijiu.I was totally mislead by the definition.--Ksyrie 22:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Right,but their ingredients are different.You cann't regard Scotch whisky and Bourbon whiskey as the same one,cuz they are made from different grains.--Ksyrie 22:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


we can say Irish whiskey,Rye whiskey[Tennessee whiskey]] are all whiskey.Whiskey is also a generi term like Baijiu,why not categorise all the whiskey in one?You may say they are not made from the same ingredient,that's why I want to seperate the Choujiu and Huangjiu,and Rice Fragrance Baijiu with Baijiu.--Ksyrie 02:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Why not?Whisky, or whiskey, refers to a broad category of alcoholic beverages that are distilled from fermented grain mash and aged in wooden casks (generally oak). Different grains are used for different varieties, including barley, malted barley, rye, malted rye, wheat, and maize (or corn).that's what I had extract from the term Whisky and Baijiu is potent Chinese distilled alcoholic beverage.Baijiu is a clear drink usually distilled from sorghum, although sometimes other grains may be used. for the Baijiu article.So you can compare the difference.Why don't you say Whisky is a term for all the distilled beverage?--Ksyrie 02:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It depends how you define the term of Baijiu or Whisky.The Rice Flagrance Baijiu and Baijiu are completely different alcholic. One from sorghum one from Rice,why not seperate the two in two different article?--Ksyrie 02:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you just be civil',the term Rice Flagrance Baijiu wasn't put up for discuss before it was deleted.You claim Rice fragrance baijiu is related to Baijiu,it's ture,while in the mean time,Tennessee whiskey is also related to whiskey.Furthermore,the Rice Flagrance Baijiu is made from different ingredients of ordinary Baijiu.It's rice nor sorghum.Yes I can find the information.Please restore this article.--Ksyrie 03:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I got a little distracted Rice Flagrance Baijiu was in red,in fact you seemed typed a wrong letter Rice Fragrance Baijiu.Sorry for my carelessness.--Ksyrie 03:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
For the Rice Fragrance Baijiu,I had looked up the chinese source,it is indeed made of Rice.I will write a little about the name.--Ksyrie 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You got it,the chinese classfication isn't a good one,one always tried to borrow the famous brand to flaunt its liquor.--Ksyrie 03:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
For you and User:Sjschen,it makes non-sense to try to stuff all kinds of chinese liquor into two articles.How can you place Baijiu,you put it after

sorghum or[rice]],or both ,or neither?And for Choujiu,in china,no one placed it as Huangjiu,why you try to make the decision for them? I wonder?Why not we classify the chinese ones like western ones,one by one,one by ingredients? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ksyrie (talkcontribs) 03:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

As you had said Baijiu is the name for Distilled beverage.Why not substitue the title of Distilled beverage for Baijiu?You put so many different chinese in just two articles.And some of them were so unrelated,the difference between some kinds of Baijiu may be greater than the Bourbon whiskeyCorn whiskeyTennessee whiskey,so why not you place all the three whiskey into one article?they were all made from corn.--Ksyrie 03:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I doubts your claims that they use the same techniques.Maybe you can cite some sources to prove the technique diffrence between the Rice Flagrance Baijiu and Baijiu is much smaller than the Bourbon whiskeyCorn whiskeyTennessee whiskey--Ksyrie 03:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not a taster and a layman for alcholic production.But I found somethings in Chinese,where clearly the Rice Flagrance Baijiu is produced in different techinique than other baijiu.[[[Rice Flagrance Baijiu]],米香型白酒:以大米为原料,经半固态发酵、蒸馏、贮存、勾兑而制成的,具有小曲米香特点的蒸馏酒。--Ksyrie 04:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


not sure what's going on, mijiu blanked by the creator after its creation. As for choujiu there does not seem to be much information about it. It seems to be a type of liquor popular in Xi'an and having a long history in China. Some sources say it's the "original" Chinese liquor. It definitly falls under "fermented wine" and does not appear to warrent a separate classification than baijiu and huangjiu. Sjschen 01:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Choujiu is a fermented wine and should be grouped with other fermented wines, which are all under "huangjiu". Maybe Huangjiu is not the best way to indicate all chinese fermented wines, perhaps a move is in order or, I dunno... Chinese fermented wines? As for rice frangrant, it definitely IS a distilled with and should be placed under baijiu. I'll join the conversation you had with User:Ksyrie tomorrow. It seem kinda vague, but I'm not sure why he's arguing that choujiu and rice frangrant wines has enough differences in ingredients and processing techniques to be a different class altogether from fermented wines and distilled wines. Sub-classes maybe, but completely different classes? Sjschen 06:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt that many kinds of chinese liquors that we mentioned in articles deserve their own article. But in this case I'm more concerned with where they go on the classification "tree". Thes two are definitely subcategories of "fermented" and "distilled" chinese wines.Sjschen 06:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:rượu nếp

Cơm means "rice", so if you're referring to the drink, then you don't need "cơm", else if you're referring to the solid stuff then you probably need "cơm". The discussion at vi:Hình:Rượu nếp cẩm1.JPG indicates that there is some controversy regarding what to call it (the user who uploaded the pic claimed that people don't call it "cơm rượu nếp" while other users say that it should be called "cơm rượu nếp" because it's solid and not liquid). You can find another picture at vi:Hình:Rượu nếp cẩm2.JPG DHN 04:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you'd be safe if you go with the standard usage: if it's liquid, it's "rượu"; if it's solid, it's "cơm rượu". DHN 04:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The pics aren't the greatest because of the flash, and they show "rượu nếp cẩm", which has food coloring in it. DHN 04:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd call that "cơm rượu" too. My mom makes them all the time, from yeast and either rice or sweet rice (I don't remember). In Vietnamese, normal uncooked (but processed) rice is "gạo" and uncooked sweet rice is "nếp". Cooked rice is "cơm" and cooked sweet rice is "xôi". I'd have to ask her next time I get the chance. Just remember that in Vietnamese the three dialects sometimes have the same name for different things and different names for the same things, so sometimes it's confusing to talk to people from a different region. DHN 04:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
"Cơm rượu" is wine rice (cơm = rice, rượu = wine, the modifier follows the noun), "rượu nếp" is "sticky rice wine". I speak a southern-central dialect, which means it has some minor differences from the Saigon dialect, but not much. DHN 04:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That page does provide some insight. It's a question-and-answer column about cooking. The first question indicates that "rượu nếp" is a Northern specialty and "cơm rượu" is a Southern specialty. The article mentions effort to make "cơm rượu" in the US, but using rice from other countries (Thailand, Malaysia, China). According to the article, all are made with sticky rice. If the grain used is sticky rice with a milky color and is rolled into balls, it's Southern-style "cơm rượu". If the grain is earthly brown and dried after boiling and not rolled into balls, then it's Norther-style "cơm rượu". The final type is a red-violet sticky rice. It is made into "rượu nếp". This type is usually used for the liquid (hence the name) instead of the solid. The rest of the article describes the different types of yeast used. DHN 05:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
We're from about 80km north of Nha Trang, which is more Southern than Central. DHN 05:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You'd have to ask the person who uploaded them. She lives in Hanoi so she's more familiar with the Northern terminology (she speaks some English). I'm just confusing myself and you the more I read about the different terminologies. DHN 05:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Never mind, her talk page is locked from anonymous and new users. DHN 05:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)