User talk:Fram

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For the ongoing community discussion about this ban, see WP:FRAM.

For Fram's talk page at meta.wikimedia, click here.

If I have deleted a page you contributed as a copyright violation, but you are also the copyright holder for the original text, you can find more info on how to resolve this at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already online.


I'm assuming you're following the discussion and so knew this was about to happen. I've unblocked, per overwhelming consensus here. I'll remove protection from this page in a minute so you can reply. Don't get too comfortable; there's a non-zero chance the WMF will ignore consensus and reinstate the block. Apologies in advance for my role in what your block log might look like a few days from now. And, of course, I cannot do anything about the desysop (I would if I could). Finally, I do not understand enough about the background of the interaction ban to attempt to rescind that; while it may or may not be valid, I'm not lifting it, and you'd be wise to assume it is still in force until someone conclusively lifts it.

Now is possibly not the right time for this, but I do think you'd be doing yourself, and, and me, a favor by dialing back the aggression a couple of notches when dealing with other good faith editors (even Arbs!) with whom you disagree. There's also a non-zero chance that the edits in question will get brought up in a request for sanction at AN, ANI, ArbCom, or somewhere where it actually belongs. No comment, yet, on where I would come down on such a discussion.

I hope this gets resolved in good time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

p.s. I guess I had an unnoticed edit conflict with WMFOffice; I'd intended to leave this message at the same time I unblocked. Looks like *they* unblanked your page, which was cool of them. -Floquenbeam (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Cool of them? I dunno. I'm not sure if they even noticed that he's unblocked. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 19:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Shhhh!!! Don't tell them and it may all blow over! --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Fram, I suppose it's also possible you're "banned but unblocked", whatever that might mean, and whatever it would mean for you if you edit anyway. I'm just enacting a clear consensus to the limits of my userrights and ability; I'm not marketing this as solved. Exhuberant notes on my talk page notwithstanding, I still suspect this is going to end up with you, me, Bish, and possibly other admins (and maybe even crats, though I kind of doubt it) unhappy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
    • That is exactly the case. Indeed, if Fram was to edit at this point in time, he would be evading the office ban, likely resulting in the ban being extended. ~ Rob13Talk 20:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
      • Hysterical. I'm so glad you're back editing Rob, you add so much love to this place. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

A (new) barnstar for you![edit]

Resilient Barnstar Hires.png The Resilient Barnstar
Should be obvious enough why you have this... - SchroCat (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back![edit]

Now then, time to get back to your scrupulous checks of a certain main page area. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Special Barnstar Hires.png The Special Barnstar
Despite your past civility issues, you deserve a barnstar because that’s just the state Wikipedia and the WMF are in now. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 05:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration[edit]

I've requested arbitration. The details are in the usual place,

Please don't respond here or there yet. We have to figure out how to let you participate. Maybe email the committee for now. Jehochman Talk 05:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Note: by now, this case was declined, and archived. starship.paint (talk) 13:38, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom courtesy notice[edit]

There is now a third Arbcom case, this time about the disputed Signpost article. You are not named as a party, but the article was about you, as I am sure you are aware. - SchroCat (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

3 July[edit]

A Midsummer Night’s Dream

Every day, we lose what the wrongly blocked would have given that day. And a little bit of our souls.

nb: User talk:Wehwalt#Sanddunes Sunrise

Franz Kafka Das Schloss.jpg
Franz Kafka: Das Schloss
... about alienation,
  • unresponsive bureaucracy,
  • the frustration of
  • trying to conduct business
  • with non-transparent,
  • seemingly arbitrary
  • controlling systems ...

Birthday of Franz Kafka today, article written by a now blocked again user, for whom the sunrise was originally designed in 2012 by a now banned user, - food for thought. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 July 2019[edit]

Remove this part "has not been endorsed by the English Wikipedia community". As the WMF is the owner of Wikipedia and obviously endorsed the ban and some WMF employees edit Wikipedia Abote2 (talk) 22:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Not done the "owner" and the "community" are not the same thing. — xaosflux Talk 22:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Reversion of office actions resolved by motion[edit]

The Arbitration Committee has accepted the WJBscribe case request under the title Reversion of office actions and resolved it by motion as follows:

Community advised

Office actions are actions taken by Wikimedia Foundation staff, and are normally expected not to be reversed or modified by members of the community even if they have the technical ability to do so. In this case an office action was taken against Fram (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), who was blocked and whose administrator rights were removed by the role account User:WMFOffice in implementing a Partial Foundation ban ([1]). No similar action had been taken before on the English Wikipedia, and it proved highly controversial.

In response, Floquenbeam (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) both used their administrator user rights to unblock Fram ([2]). Floquenbeam's administrator rights were temporarily removed by WMFOffice (talk · contribs) ([3]). WJBscribe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) used his bureaucrat rights first to restore Floquenbeam's administrator rights, and later to restore Fram's ([4]).

Although official WMF policy states that Unauthorized modifications to office actions will not only be reverted, but may lead to sanctions by the Foundation, such as revocation of the rights of the individual involved, JEissfeldt (WMF) (talk · contribs) indicated that the WMF would not implement further sanctions against the admins involved in reversing these actions ([5]). In recognition of that decision, and of the exceptional nature of the circumstances, the committee notes without comment this series of events. The community is advised that administrators and bureaucrats are normally expected not to act when they know they do not have all of the relevant facts, and that this is especially important with regard to office actions where those facts may be highly sensitive. As a general rule, wheel warring may be grounds for removal of administrative rights by the committee as well as by the WMF. Lack of sanctions under these exceptional circumstances should not set expectations around similar future actions.

For the Arbitration Committee, – bradv🍁 02:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Reversion of office actions resolved by motion

Arbitration case opened[edit]

The Arbitration Committee has accepted a case and the case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram. Evidence can be submitted for the next 14 days; see the case evidence page for instructions on how to submit evidence. For the arbitration committee, GoldenRing (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Fram case opened[edit]

The arbitration committee have opened a case on Fram at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram. This case is to be held in private, with evidence and workshop proposals to be submitted by email — see the evidence and workshop case pages for instructions. For the Arbitration Committee, GoldenRing (talk) 12:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Fram case opened

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1923 in Bosnia and Herzegovina[edit]

A tag has been placed on Category:1923 in Bosnia and Herzegovina requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Case timeline update[edit]

Please note that the case timeline has been changed. It is now anticipated that:

  • Anonymised and summarised evidence will be prepared and sent to you by 14 August. This will also be posted publicly once you have had a chance to respond.
  • The workshop phase will be held from 21 to 28 August. It is intended that this be held in public but this may yet change.
  • The proposed decision will be posted in public by 7 September.

For the arbitration committee, GoldenRing (talk) 13:06, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Summary evidence[edit]

Fram, this note confirms that the summary evidence has now been passed to you by email. As I said in the email, the delay was on our side, so you can still have up to a week before we post publicly and open the workshop. WormTT(talk) 07:44, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Fourteen years of editing[edit]

Balloons-aj.svg Hey, Fram. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day!
Chris Troutman (talk) 13:08, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposed decision posted[edit]

The proposed decision has been posted in an arbitration case in which you are involved. If you wish to comment, please ping me at meta and I will copy your comments across, or contact me by email. GoldenRing (talk) 15:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC)


It may not be the end, or even the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the beginning. I hope to see you back just as soon as the proposed decision (now with a passing majority) to vacate your pathetic ban is enacted. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 16:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Temporary injunction[edit]

The committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 1a of this decision and its supporting principles and findings are passing, and so Fram shall be unbanned immediately, without awaiting the close of the case. The remainder of the decision remains pending. As the status of Fram's sysop rights has not been decided, Fram is not to be resysopped during this interim period.

For the Arbitration Committee WormTT(talk) 16:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, the remainder of the case is still ongoing, but the committee has passed an immediate unban as that decision was unanimous. The WMF have confirmed by email that we can unban through our normal processes, you should be clear to return. WormTT(talk) 16:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  1. Welcome back. The puppy is happy to see this. KillerChihuahua 17:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  2. Welcome back. The work goes on, the cause endures. Haukur (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  3. Welcome back. A part of the farce concludes. WBGconverse 17:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  4. Welcome back. I am so very sorry. If they could do this to you, they could do this to anyone. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  5. Welcome back. I imagine a few people at the WMF are going to be made very uncomfortable before this is all said and done. At least, I hope so. Lepricavark (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
    I certainly hope so. KillerChihuahua 18:02, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
    To feel uncomfortable, they'd have to care in the first place. 0% chance that anyone at WMF gives a shit. Levivich 23:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  6. Welcome Back!!! Necromonger...We keep what we kill 17:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  7. Welcome back!!! --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  8. Welcome back! I hope that this long farce hasn't left you too embittered. Jip Orlando (talk) 18:07, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  9. Welcome back, Fram! I came to like you more than before over the process, and expect you to keep watching over the quality of the project. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  10. Welcome back! Although we never crossed paths before this charade started, I was utterly shocked by the lack of due process in enacting your ban, and I'm happy that this bizarre sanction was vacated unanimously by ArbCom. You'll never get your three months back, but you did earn a lot of respect from many community members. — JFG talk 20:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  11. Welcome back. This whole thing has been an insipid farce, but at least it seems to be ending in a relatively sane way. Reyk YO! 21:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  12. +1 — Ched (talk) 21:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  13. Welcome back! – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 22:16, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  14. Welcome back. It took way too long to get here. Levivich 23:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  15. Welcome back! —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 01:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  16. Welcome back, am glad that this moves the entire issue forward and you are once again released to roam free in the fields of the lord. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  17. Welcome back! You are a valuable asset to this project. Hlevy2 (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  18. Welcome back! I haven't interacted with you before, but it seems like you're a perfectly competent and helpful if slightly intense editor, and you got done incredibly dirty by the WMF and to a certain extent arbcom. I hope you'll be able to overcome that Magisch talk to me 14:08, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  19. Welcome back! KinoCat (talk) 17:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you all (also in the sections below!). I'll compose something for the PD talk page now, and then I can finally look again at my watchlist and start editing (if I'm in the mood). Fram (talk) 06:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back[edit]

I don't think I know you, and I haven't been around these parts in a decade at least I think, but I ended up finding out about this nonsense. It's crystal clear that you were railroaded by someone with connections, and if the --redacted-- at Arbcom require you to go through another RFA, you've got my vote on general principles.

And any of them who vote not to reinstate your bit will be guaranteeing my votes for literally anyone else, up to and including the proverbial ham sandwich, at the next Arbcom election. Sebthepleb (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Another barnstar for you![edit]

Resilient Barnstar Hires.png The Resilient Barnstar
I hope you can recover from this experience and return to full editing. You can count on my support at RfA. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I was very tempted to give you the civility barnstar, but wasn't sure if others would appreciate the irony :) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Fram: I want to suggest that you leave the PD talk page alone. You have plenty of editors there supporting your cause. You are understandably upset about the situation and I don't think you are doing yourself any favours there. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:05, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Probably, but the, let's call it audacity of an arb responding to the calls for actual diffs and evidence with a support for a completely diff- and evidence-free FoF as if that is an actual reply to the concerns is completely baffling. Fram (talk) 08:11, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
This entire proceeding is out of process and more or less a trash can fire, not necessarily due to ArbCom's fault. They too are navigating uncharted waters. It's not like it got more absurd in the last day, but griping about it compromises your moral high ground at least in perception. I'd suggest letting people draw their own conclusions about how you've been treated, as you can probably see, most of us fall squarely on your side for now. Magisch talk to me 08:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Minor user rights[edit]

While the ArbCom is deliberating, I added autopatrolled and rollbacker flags to your account, so that you could edit conveniently. If you need any other rights (or do not need these), please let me know.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I noted (through my watchlist) that you also recently removed a whole bunch of wikidata property links from articles on other-language Wikipedia versions. I did the same for other articles with the same changes, one the same day, but from another IP. Do you know if there is an easy way to find these? Fram (talk) 12:38, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, indeed, and I even opened an ANI request. (I believed I have done it twice, with two different IPs). Concerning the Tuesday IP, I just reverted all their edits, but they might have also edited under different IPs. I do not know any easy way to find all their edits, but if you ask at ANI, probably someone would be able to help. --Ymblanter (talk) 12:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
This is the thread, just in case.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Scanning a database dump perhaps? Welcome back! –xenotalk 13:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Search/insource:"property:P1448" appears to work, although it produces a few false positives (legitimate uses of Wikidata in infoboxes). * Pppery * it has begun... 18:59, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You have mail[edit]

Nomination statement[edit]

Fram, I’m pleased that (on the surface anyhow) it appears you wish to continue to administrate the project. And I think we both know your RfA will become a referendum of sorts. But could I suggest that your current nomination statement instead be moved to an answer to a self-question (or perhaps an answer to question 3?) and your nomination statement instead speak to those RfA participants that will be seeking to decide on the merits, lacking prior knowledge of the circumstances that brought you back to RfA? I’d be willing to co-nominate with someone else if you don’t feel to write a nomination statement proper. –xenotalk 11:48, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with 90% of what Xeno wrote. It would be weird if you didn't mention the SANFRANBAN at all in the nomination statement, but certainly all the details and rebuttals would be better moved somewhere else. And ... I know it is not in your nature when you perceive an injustice, but do tone down your language before listing the RfA — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:55, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Xeno and MSGJ: it would be wiser indeed if some others nominated me (the more the merrier!), and I gave my view as an answer to a question. Sanitized a bit to keep the frustration out and the cogent points in. I'll try to rewrite my bit, feel free to propose a nomination statement. Thank you! Fram (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to co-nominate as well. Please let me know where to sign.—Chowbok 13:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

My advice, if you will take it: draft the RfA in your userspace (with co-nominators if desired) and wait until the case has actually closed and people have had time to react at the arbitration committee noticeboard. And sleep on it a bit, rather than rushing ahead too fast. This will also stop people !voting before it has actually been transcluded to RfA. Carcharoth (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

  • As I said above, you've got my vote on general principles. Your nomination statement could literally be "fuck Arbcom, and fuck the WMF" and you'd still have it. Sebthepleb (talk) 12:55, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I have reverted a bunch of votes, which have been placed before the RfA has been transcluded. I would have done this regardless of which RfA it was, and have probably done it at least on one I have nominated. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:59, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks (voters, advice and action). I have moved it to User talk:Fram/Requests for adminship/Fram 2, perhaps the redirect needs to be deleted for now. I would do it myself, but, well, you know :-) Fram (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Those who think about power and society have long asked themselves, who watches the watchmen? Who holds the powerful to account? It's not an easy task. It something that tends to get you in trouble. It's much easier to uphold the law when the weak break it and turn a blind eye to infractions by those in power. So, what to do with this old question? In our case the answer turns out to be this: User:Fram watches the watchmen. Who will run a skeptical eye over new pages, even by veteran editors? Fram. Who is willing to sanction anyone who doesn't play by the rules, up to and including issuing blocks to arbitrators? Fram. This is not an approach that leads to universal popularity. But it's an approach that helps us maintain a healthy community. And this is why I will be supporting Fram for a new adminship. Haukur (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2019 (UTC)


quality comics and control

Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg

Thank you for quality articles about comics and their creators, both begun and improved, such as Willy Vandersteen, Angoulême International Comics Festival and Le Petit Vingtième, for service from 2005, for keeping a watchful admin eye over copyright, proper referencing and notability, for "Trying to silence critics and dismiss genuine questions as "trolling" seems to be a rather unsuccesful strategy." (2013) - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2285 of Precious, a prize of QAI, the cabal of the outcast, of which you surely are a member, both by what you do and how you are treated. Please survive without looking back too much, and keep statements short. Today's featured picture illustrates KISS ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. You are one of the most caring editors I have encountered on enwiki, a gracious helping hand even when we were sometimes on opposing sides of a debate. Fram (talk) 13:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)