User talk:IvanScrooge98

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Would you be willing to translate a short article on Bianca Bagnarelli into Italian? She is an up-and-coming Italian illustrator, living in Bologna, and it seems a shame to me that her article only appears in English Wikipedia. All the references are current, and two are already in Italian! ubiquity (talk) 13:45, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ubiquity: of course, just as soon as I have some time! I’m sorry for the late reply but I’ve recently been in some trouble and still might not always be able to edit promptly. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
@Ubiquity: looks like I did it :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 11:26, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much! It looks great! ubiquity (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)


Hi. Would you mind adding the Italian IP to the Italian organizations missing IPA here Template:Organized crime groups in Europe? Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: yep, when I have some time to check them out (hopefully soon) ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 09:00, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: did it! Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 10:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Would you mind checking over some of the IPAs I've added. Especially Al Pacino. You can see some others in my contributions. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: done ;) most were perfectly fine. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for all the help. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to look over a few more for me? I've done the families myself Cotroni crime family, Papalia crime family, Musitano crime family, Luppino crime family and Rizzuto crime family, Gotti, but if you could please check it over, also for the families of the Five Families. If you have the time, would you be able to go through the names at Category:Canadian mobsters of Italian descent? I think it would be much quicker than me going through them. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: no problem, I’ll check those too. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC) However, never forget the stress mark and remember [ɛ] and [ɔ] are never unstressed. ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. Yeah, it's always the stresses that I confuse. I've done some more if you can take a look at my contribs. Also, if you want to help with Italian footballer IPAs as you go along, you can see List of Italy national football team captains, followed by the longer list List of Italy international footballers. Obviously the latter list will be a work in progress. Saluti, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 00:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: alright, as soon as I can. Meanwhile, I am going to ask you to please avoid add more yourself because a lot of those had wrong stress and/or length mark, some even lacking the correct IPA letters, and I frankly do not find enough time in this period to constantly go through them to fix them. Hope you understand. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Alright, thanks. For Tony Sirico where you said you couldn't find sources? What's your go to source for IPAs? Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: I use the DOP and DiPI, linked to at the bottom of Help:IPA/Italian. And since Sirico is a surname I never heard of, I definitely needed a reference to know the correct stress. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for that. DiPI looks good. Not every name is there but a sizeable amount are; I'll definitely consult this in the future before adding IPA. Although it doesn't seem to show the : stresses? Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: well, no, it’s based on IPA but it’s not as closely phonetic as the one we use here, so long vowels (occurring in stressed non-final open syllables) are not marked; by the way, the correct symbol is ː, not :. Also, DiPI uses older IPA ligatures for /dz/, /tʃ/ etc., but keep in mind that we transcribe double affricates as /ddz/ rather than /dzdz/. Bye :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I know it's ː I was just too lazy to open up a page to copy and paste it lol. Does Cristian Zaccardo not need a second d for dz? I too am studying - at the University of Toronto - for sciences though, although I did take an intro to English linguistics course which I found very interesting. It didn't focus on stresses too much, mainly just the phonetic alphabet. Being a native English speaker with only a basic understanding of Italian, it is sometimes challenging to identify stresses and ɔ vs o, but I am trying to get more familiar with the concepts; it will take time. I know I'm not qualified to add IPAs myself right now without checking in some way, but when I see something that looks like it might need fixing or something that would improve this project, it'd be a shame to let it go without asking a more qualified person. I guess it's not fair to you to ask for large volumes of IPA checks, but I hope you don't mind a couple here and there as I realize you do a lot for IPA here and probably wouldn't mind doing so if it improves the project we have here; some of the names I brought up did need fixing for some time at their name pages like Maurizio, which also benefited by your fix :). I saw the IPA at Briscola as "o", should it be "ɔ"? Could you also take a quick look at Scopa and Cornicello? Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 19:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: don’t worry, you are always very kind and as soon as I can I will start it off. Alright, it’s just /dz/ for Zaccardo as it does not follow a vowel, and it’s /ˈbriskola/ as the O is unstressed and thus can never be open-mid. Let me have a look at the other pages. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 19:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Mind looking at Frances Nunziata and Anthony Perruzza Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Hey thanks for getting started on the footballers! :) Could you take a look at Charles Ponzi, thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: sometimes I get some spare time to take a look at those ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 21:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Would you be able to add the Sicilian IPA to Russo? I've also started looking at some of the top criminals in Italy (List of most wanted fugitives in Italy) IPAs on DiPl, however several are not there. This is another smaller list that we could perhaps knock out faster. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 18:17, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: yep, just as soon as I get some time I will check that list too. ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:29, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I was surprised not to see the Sicilian IPA for Sicily, Catania, Messina, Agrigento and Syracuse, Sicily, if you are able. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I will do that too then. Catania’s one would actually look the same as for Italian though. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi. Could you take a look at John Cabot (confirming his Venetian name from the origins section, and also including the the names in the lead with IPA as we usually do...(born Giovanni Caboto; .....), and his son Sebastian Cabot (explorer). Thanks and have a good weekend. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:48, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: done; also the Venetian name should be correct, even though it clearly uses the original Medieval spelling. Have a nice weekend, too! Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi and Happy Easter. When able, can you please review the changes of [1] and [2]? Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 11:30, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: happy Easter! Actually both ways of transcribing are correct, though in Italian s+consonant clusters are normally considered part of the same syllable (for this reason I usually transcribe as that editor did). However, a syllable followed by s+consonant is phonetically a close syllable, meaning the s belongs to the previous rather than the following one. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:23, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Ok, perhaps you can add both accepted ways. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: actually it’s the same pronunciation with a slightly different transcription, just as [ˈsotːo] for [ˈsotto]. So having two would mean being redundant. Cheers, Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi there. Could you take a look at Luca Banti, Gianluca Rocchi, Paolo Tagliavento, Massimiliano Irrati, Edoardo Bosio? And also a reminder about List of most wanted fugitives in Italy, unless you're too busy. Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:18, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: oops, you are right, I had forgot after looking at the first articles in the list. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:21, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, eh. Could you also do the family names of Inzerillo Mafia clan and Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan, Lupara bianca, and Category:People murdered by the Sicilian Mafia, Category:People murdered by the 'Ndrangheta, Category:People murdered by the Camorra and subcats? Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 01:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: no worries, when I can I will. Sorry again for my forgetfulness. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:22, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
No worries at all. Sorry to hit you with all this but I recently created all of the remaining ~60 redlink national team player pages and was hoping you could add the IPAs, you can see all my creations in a row here. No rush at all. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: I must have done it all. :) I also fixed a little something here and there, mainly due to overlooking. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 17:52, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi. For 'Ndrina and 'Ndrangheta, wouldn't it make sense to have the Calabrian IPA stated in prose as well as it is Calabrian not Sicilian. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 22:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: the thing is, Central-Southern Calabrian is classified as a Sicilian dialect. However, I could implement the template so that it can show the label Calabrian instead. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 06:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Hey, hope you've been well. I was taking another look at Help:IPA/Italian, and I noticed something for "a". It lists the English approximation as "father", but I feel like this is somewhat inaccurate. With the examples given, alto and sarà, but even for something like pasta, I don't think these vowels always sound like the one used in father. The "a" in sarà does sound a little closer to father than the "a" in pasta though, doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "a" sound in Italian sounds more sharp and quick - literally pasta, not like how fahther sounds not pahsta. I think something like bat would be a better approximation, although still not exact. What do you think? Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 01:10, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: hi! I kind of agree with you, but I think father was chosen because it probably provides a closer approximation in a wider number of accents than bat would do, if we consider /æ/ tensing. Nevertheless, pasta might be a good compromise, I guess, as I have seen elsewhere in help pages. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 06:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
How about apple, that seems like the best overall. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

─────────────────────────@Vaselineeeeeeee: I think it’s like having bat. Maybe you should start a discussion at the page talk, so to involve users who are better experts of English phonology than us. ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:42, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi. Could you add something like the sentence from Stefano "It is a common tendency amongst English-speakers to mispronounce the name Stefano by placing the stress on the penultimate syllable (i.e. /stəˈfɑːnoʊ/), whereas the correct Italian pronunciation places the stress on the first one: [ˈsteːfano]." to Esposito? English-speakers tend to pronounce it like in this video at 0:52. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 04:32, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: hello! Sure, no problem. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 06:35, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Hey do you have a source for the English pronunciation for Stefano, a user added a tag. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: I think he did for the whole sentence, i.e. we should find a source stating that the common English pronunciation stresses the A. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I'll see if I will be able to find any. Also, that user added some IPAs to Foscari, Vendramin family . Loredan, Dandolo, but didn't use the template or convention. Could you please fix them. Thanks Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
@Vaselineeeeeeee: thank you. I will. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 17:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Hey can you put the IPA for Sciòscio (nap.) at Ciocia - I put all the pronunciations in a note, but this one was missing. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 04:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Catania's Influence on Adelaide[edit]

I thought I would bring the discussion regarding the Catania article here; I'm not saying that this information isn't valuable at all (I should not have removed the section entirely), but I don't think that it should be its own section altogether. Perhaps it could be worked into the Geography or History section? No other city articles have their influence on other city layouts in their own section, so I think their precedence should be followed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:00, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

No problem, maybe I sounded too harsh. I was thinking about making it a substection, too, but I didn’t dare to place it elsewhere. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 20:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

About italian IPA references[edit]

Hi IvanScrooge98, I pinged you on a discussion about a recent case of sockpuppeting and related removal of relevant sources.Various waves of sockpuppets are reiteratedly changing italian IPA transcriptions and in certain cases they are also removing the references that confirm the version they are not happy with. You can see the concerned SPI cases here and here. Summarising, before reverting all the edits made by those socks, we wanted to be sure that the dictionary given as reference is a reliable source and if there is more alternative sources to further confirm the current version. Please note that in most cases the only available source has been added by another sockpuppet group related to ZenZung. As mentioned in the discussion where I pinged you from, the discussed source is Your comment on this subject would be very appreciated. Horst Hof (talk) 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: yes, I had noticed but haven’t had the time to leave a reply until now. :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)


RE: this: the "point" is that IPA gives a pronunciation that those who do not know language-specific spelling systems can use; many mistakenly pronounce ukiyo-e as "you-kee-oh-eh". The IPA you gave is problematic as (a) it includes pitch marks—pitch varies widely across Japan; (b) it is overspecific, giving very precise pronunciation when it is only supposed to be a general pronunciation guide (one generalized so that it can be applied easily to either an English or Japanese pronunciation). The articles does not fall under linguistics, and the IPA you gave does not serve a purpose appropriate to the target audience. It was moved from the opening line as many complain that parentheticals—particularly lengthy ones—disrupt the openings of too many articles.

Please keep in mind that this is a FA, and a lot of thought and effort has been put into its presentation. If a "Why would anyone do this?" sort of question comes to you with such an article, you might want to find out first. As you can see, these decisions weren't arbitrary. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: ehm, I don’t think it is overspecific at all, it just follows the help page it links to, where one can get all the explanations they need. I understand not having it in the lead, but why leaving a “pronunciation” note that looks like simple syllabification of the term? Also, there is plenty of articles with IPA for names and terms one may not be familiar with, regardless of their topic. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 09:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
"why leaving a “pronunciation” note that looks like simple syllabification of the term?"—I just explained that.
"I don’t think it is overspecific at all"—for the purpose, yes, it is ridiculously so—particularly the pitch marks. It is meant to give the reader a very generalized pronunciation guide that can be mapped to either Japanese or whatever English dialect they happen to speak. If you dislike this, then the onus is on you to demonstrate why this may be inappropriate, and why a more hairsplitting IPA representation would be more helpful to the target reader.
"there is plenty of articles with IPA for names and terms one may not be familiar with, regardless of their topic"—as there is for Ukiyo-e. What are you saying?
The English "pronunciations" are all inappropriate—this has been discussed before, and it has been found that there is no "standard" English pronunciation of ukiyo-e in any dialect. Some sources stress the final syllable, others the penultimate, etc, etc.
There are also accessibility issues with moving the pronuciation to an endnote.
Please understand, we have been through this, and the pronunication is presented the way it is for a reason. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Please also remember that a source can be required for an IPA, particularly as in this case where there is a dispute. WP:OR arriving at one editor's preferred option using a Wikipedia help page as a source is not acceptable.SovalValtos (talk) 03:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: I was saying there is plenty of articles with IPA transcriptions and IMHO this one does not look any more specific than the others. Also, my point was: the average reader would look at / and think: “Wow, thanks for hyphenating the word for me” rather than understand they are not supposed to pronounce a Y-sound at the begininnig, while having a [Japanese, as the word is Japanese] IPA linking to a page which explains it all is pretty different. Thus, where was this whole thing discussed? I’d like to try and change the consensus because I strongly think this option is not helpful at all. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:51, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
And @SovalValtos: don’t worry, I do have a reference for that. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:52, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Found it. No consensus and not even an actual talk: just a question and a reply. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:12, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
It was discussed at WP:JAPAN and a couple of other locations, as well as the problem of "having a source" for the pronunciation. Different sources give different pronunciations, as you yourself have already demonstrated with the two sources you've given. Other sources have the stress on the penultimate, and other sources give British pronunciations. wikt:浮世絵 gives two separate pitch patterns (both sourced) for the Tokyo dialect alone. The sources don't agree, so we provide a pronunciation guide that doesn't conflict with the sources and reaches the widest possible audience for the intended purpose.
"the average reader would look at / and think: “Wow, thanks for hyphenating the word for me”"—uh ... no. Why would they do that?
"I was saying there is plenty of articles with IPA transcriptions and IMHO this one does not look any more specific than the others."—I honestly have no clue what you're trying to express here. Ukiyo-e has IPA, and what does "specific" have to do with the discussion?
You also will want to keep in mind that there is a large number of editors who are trying to get IPA banaished from article leads in general—such discussions happen at WP:MOS somewhat frequently. These are supposed to be merely simple pronunciation guides, but being overly pedantic with them makes them less accessible, which gives these people more fuel for their campaign. They've successfully removed the IPA from quite a number of articles already. Please don't contribute to this mess and make our articles less informative and helpful to our readers. Anyone who wants a precise phonetic representation can find [ɯ̟ᵝkʲijo̞e̞] at wikt:浮世絵#Japanese—the pronunciation guide given serves another purpose and far broader audience. Please show some respect for that. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: whatever; I just tried to say I’m pretty sure the average reader will not think they are reading a pronunciation transcription when they see that, so I find it useless, rather than a simplification. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:38, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: just noticed it is actually using IPA now. A step forward. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:41, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
It was always IPA, just with a typo.
"I’m pretty sure the average reader will not think they are reading a pronunciation transcription"—why? What else are they supposed to interpret the slashes as (here or anywhere else on Wikipedia)? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: a typo that made it look like anything but IPA. At least now we have a proper phonemic transcription. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 05:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
y is IPA—it was just the wrong character, and a really obvious and easy-to-make mistake (one I've corrected myself elsewhere). If that one character were the whole issue, then none of this would ever have happened. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

March 2019[edit]

Information icon Please do not add or change content, as you did at Renato Cesarini, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. A wikipedia help page is not a reliable source SovalValtos (talk) 05:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@SovalValtos: references are always from the two websites at the bottom of Help:IPA/Italian, which I constantly browse; I simply did not bother to put single citations for all the IPAs I was asked to add. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
@SovalValtos: as you can see here, it is perfectly fine to adapt IPAs to the help (actually, we are always supposed to do that, considering they were thought to match). Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
@SovalValtos: WP:Don't template the regulars. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Expertise needed[edit]

Hi IvanScrooge98, would you be so kind to dedicate a bit of your time to check the following diffs (this and this)? I was about to fix the edits the IPA-disruptor did as unlogged IP during the last weeks and found these edits where no source is given and to be honest I'm not able to assess if the change is correct or not. If you confirm that these changes do not comply with Help:IPA/Italian, I will systematically revert them as soon as I will find that again in the future. Thanks in advance. Horst Hof (talk) 08:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: yes, they were definitely disruptive, insisting on negating syntactic gemination. Thank you a lot, too bad edits like these are so frequent. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 10:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi again IvanScrooge98, I'm here to ask your help again. The IPA-disruptor is back and this time targeted the articles dedicated to Alighiero Noschese and Giorgio Scerbanenco. As concerns the first one, their edit seems acceptable, I checked the sources they provided in the edit summary and seem to confirm their version, thus I added the sources accordingly. On the other hand, the edit they made at the second article seems the same situation that you called syntactic gemination, would you be so kind to spend a bit of your time to check that? I also noticed that the transcription of the first name Giorgio differs from what states in the third symbol (o vs. ɔ) thus it will possibly need to be fixed too. Sorry for bothering again with this story and thanks again for your kind help. Horst Hof (talk) 07:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
@Horst Hof: I usually edit according to DOP, which is more conservative and therefore only allows [ˈdʒordʒo]; for the same reason, Noschese is only given there as [noˈskeːse], while DiPI also features [noˈskeːze]. Regarding Scerbanenco, it starts with /ʃ/, which is always double after a vowel in Italian (so not really a case of syntactic gemination, as it is triggered both at word boundaries and inside a word). As soon as I can, I will fix those bothersome edits. Thank you. :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 13:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
@Horst Hof: oh, by the way, this even contains the symbol ⟨⁺⟩ which means just what I was telling you, so that user is even citing the sources wrong. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 17:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your comments. I hope you have nothing against if, from time to time, I will ask you for a comment on this topic, since this story doesn't seem to be getting closer to an end. Cheers and thanks again. Horst Hof (talk) 08:01, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
@Horst Hof: don't worry, hopefully all of us won’t just have to keep correcting them. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi IvanScrooge98, thanks for helping me in reverting sock's edits as you did at Agustín Calleri and others. In the meantime I found more possible vandalic edits at Zucchetti, Zuccarello and Zucca (aperitif), where an anonymous user removed parts of IPA transcription and you were the last user to edit those articles. Would you be so kind to have a check if it is worthwhile to revert them? Thanks in advance, Horst Hof (talk) 08:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
@Horst Hof: thank you for promptly reporting this! Technically, both pronunciations are equally possible, and those with /ts/ are actually the most traditional ones. So yes, edits like these should be reverted. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:21, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you, and invitation![edit]

Linguistic Barnstar.png The Linguistic Barnstar
For assisting me in recent times and offering advice, as well as the work you do in general for linguistics here. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Tower of Babel cropped square.jpg
Hello, IvanScrooge98.

You are invited to join WikiProject Linguistics, a WikiProject and resource dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Linguistics.
Please check out the project, and if interested feel free to join by adding your name to the member list. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

No good[edit]

I'm sorry to have to say that I very strongly object to whet you did here. To me, that (including the removel of good sources) is nothing less that destructive editing. We are supposed to make it easier, not harder , for readers of English who do not know Swedish, to learn relevant facts. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: I don’t see what you are talking about and why you are being so harsh. First, I removed nothing and second, I did that to avoid having too many commas, but it’s also perfectly fine to me the way it is now. Have a nice day. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 16:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I am only going by what the edit history shows. Between two edits, both yours, both of the well-sourced English exonyms disappeared. Look for yourself! If somehow I'm wrong, I apologize. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@SergeWoodzing: are you serious? Disappeared? You can see for yourself I simply moved them to a footnote; you could as well (as you did) place them back where they used to be or start a discussion on where they are supposed to stay. Anyway I am not going to discuss this any longer. Things are just fine now. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 17:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Disappeared from the lead, is what I obviously meant. Please do not remove any well-sourced exonyms from the lead of any article. I appreciate pronunciations being kept in footnotes (as a rule), but not bolded, well-sourced exonyms that have been in place for a long time. Dalecarlia redirects to Dalarna. It is normal then to have that exonym bolded in the lead. Again, I apologize for being harsh & making you so irritated. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


Hello again! Please explain your addition of the word "possible" here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:45, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: oh gosh, I just meant alternative alongside Dalarna, which is so widely used it is the title of the article itself. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 21:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Alternatively and possible have widely different meanings. That's why I asked. Wikipedia normally does not mention possible exonyms. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Non-stop Italian IPA disruptive edits[edit]

Hi IvanScrooge98, please, would you be so kind to cast an eyeball to this and this? It seems that the IPA disruptor is back after a short break. Comments? Horst Hof (talk) 09:32, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: I really don’t know what to think of this, (s)he even reverted their own disruptive edits. Though it might be the same coming back. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 10:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Naples lead sentence[edit]

Hi, Sorry for reverting your reversion, but you must agree that the leading sentence is MUCH better the way I edited.
There is no rule that says that the first sentence of an article should be completely unreadable. "Everybody does it" is absolutely not an excuse to make Wikipedia worse. Please ignore what "everybody does" and instead do what you think is best for the reader.
That, in fact, is the only rule that every editor should follow.
All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 00:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Jorge Stolfi: “you must agree that the leading sentence is MUCH better the way I edited”. Well, I really don’t, I simply try to be as consistent as possible with other articles. But we can reach a compromise: I shall move most of that to a side note, as I did here, of course keeping the official and native names in the very lead. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
A side note is certainly better than putting all names and their pronuciations in a huge parenthesis between subject and verb.
However, please reconsider the question of "consistency". What good is it, really? Do you think any reader will be annoyed if the lead sentence of that article is MORE readable than that of most other articles?
Many irrational and counterproductive things, some of them bordering on unconscious vandalism, are done to poor Wikipedia for no better reason than "other editors have been doing that". If you track down the origin of any such bad convention, it is never a widely debated proposal with clear cost/benefit analysis. It is always someone started doing that to hundreds of articles, and then other editors mistook that thing for a Wikipedia rule and started doing the same.
Those bloated parentheses, for example, started when someone thought it would be nice to add the pronunciation to the head as it is done in dictionaries -- disregarding the real rule "Wikipedia is not a dictionary". Then other started to "improve" those pronunciation guides by adding etymology, Then came the "names in other languages", each with their pronuciations. The editor from Mongolia saw the name in Napulitano and in Greek, and naturally assumed that the name in Mongolian should be there too. And the guy from Taiwan saw that the Chinese name was in simplfied characters, and could not let it pass without adding the traditional characters too, and the gwoyeu romatzyh to balance the pinyin. And...
Which is even harder to forgive if one observes that in dictionaries the structure of each entry is "word [pronc & stuff], [category]: equivalent word", i.e. a line of a table, not a sentence. Whereas the lead of a Wikipedia article is "subject (long parenthesis) predicate", which was supposed to be a grammatical sentence...
All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 08:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98: Pinging for the above.
@Jorge Stolfi: I totally agree with you regarding the addition of non-native languages, I’d be the first kicking the Chinese name for Naples away from the article, but I’m in favor of keeping the native and historical names of a place. Where they are most welcome, of course. Thank you for your politeness. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:24, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I do agree that the native names should be given, even in the first paragraph. However, I see no reason why they (and their pronunciations!) have to be inserted in the same parentheses as the English pronunciation, rather than in a separate, well-formed sentence. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
@Jorge Stolfi: maybe because they have been judged side information (or information that could be easily shortened) in contrast to the introducing sentences of the article. Just guessing though. Regards, Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Indic Script[edit]

Please do not add any Indic script, to any of our India related articles, as you did at Gujarat, as this contravenes WP:NOINDICSCRIPT - Thank you - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

In ref to your edit summary here, that policy came to be because of ethnic warring between Indian editors in articles which had more than one Indian language terms in the lead. For example, in multi-lingual film articles, people used to fight for their chosen term to be displayed before. Similarly for historical empires too. Now there's a blanket ban Face-smile.svg. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@Fylindfotberserk: oh my gosh, now I see why that only applies for Indian languages. Anyway, thank you for correcting me and explaining the policy. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:29, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Few years ago, I tried to add an "Indic" term which got reverted. Since then I enforce this policy with an "Iron" Fist. "Irony" ain't it? Face-smile.svg. Nice chatting with you. Regards - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Cucciolo gatto Bibo.jpg

You are most welcome

Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Syllabic consonants[edit]

You need to watch them. Sequences such as *[mn̩] are impossible in both English and German. This edit, for instance, contains 3 mistakes: the IPA should read ⟨ˈ|b|r|eɪ|m|ə|n⟩, ⟨ˈ|b|r|ɛ|m|ə|n⟩ and ⟨ˈʃtatɡəˌmaɪndə ˈbʁeːmən⟩. In German, /ˈbʁeːmən/ reduces only to [ˈbʁeːm̩] and [ˈbʁeːm], neither of which are allowed in formal speech (at least not when you use them consistently).

See also [3]. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

tm̩ is also impossible. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

And so is ŋn̩. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, leːɐ̯ˈkuːzn̩ isn't the same as leːɐˈkuːzn̩. The former has three syllables, whereas the latter has four. The difference between [ɐ̯] and [ɐ] is phonemic in German. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I am very sorry; nonetheless, regarding [tm̩], the help page uses Atem as an example for [m̩]. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 06:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Fixed. Großem is a better example than these two (and it's not wrong). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 08:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
We use syllabic consonants in English (German, Danish, etc.) to facilitate pronunciation. There's very little reason to enunciate [ə] before [m, n, l] where a lengthened [mː, nː, lː] (conventionally transcribed [m̩, n̩, l̩]) are sufficient for these sequences to be understood for what they are: underlying /əm, ən, əl/. Germanic schwas already have a large allophonic variation (unless there's an additional phonemic /ɐ/ in the language, in which case the variation is somewhat smaller) and so it's no wonder that speakers of English, German, Danish etc. are ready to treat postconsonantal [mː, nː, lː] as /əm, ən, əl/. But [m̩, n̩, l̩] aren't used when realizing them instead of [əm, ən, əl] makes the pronunciation more difficult. In Atem, you have an alveolar (or dental) stop that would have to be nasally released into a bilabial nasal. I'm pretty sure that natives would consider that to be a speech defect and would describe it as pronouncing Ap'm instead of Atem. (but word-final instances of /t/ can assimilate to word-initial /p, b, t, k/ in German, just like in English. That's a different phenomenon though). Syllabic nasals following non-syllabic nasals of different place of articulation are a no-no as well, at least in those languages. I can't imagine a native speaker of German say [ˈbʁeːmn̩] and [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋn̩ˌboːlə]. The outcome of that would probably sound somewhat like Breb'n and Feuerzag'nbowle, with denasalized voiced stops. On the other hand though, [ˈbʁeːm̩] and [ˈbʁeːm] are perfectly fine (as long as we're not talking about formal speech), but I'm not sure whether Feuerzangenbowle can be pronounced as anything other than [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋənˌboːlə] (maybe [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋəmˌboːlə], with an assimilated /n/). Perhaps [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋ̍ˌboːlə] is also fine, but I'm not sure about that. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)


I have a question for you.

Do you know the rules of phonetics? Do you take into account the pronunciations of native speakers? Do you have or use the 3rd Edition of Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & the 18th Edition of Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary?

You do a very good job adding phonetics to these articles, but some of your post are in question, especially if it's related to English pronunciations. In the future, I will add & edit the source if it's related to the 3rd Edition of Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & 18th Edition of Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary.

If you have any questions about English pronunciations, you can ask one of the following users because they know & speak English majority of their lives: Kbb2, Dbfirs, Nardog, Wolfdog & myself included.

NKM1974 (talk) 08:41, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@NKM1974: I know them, I just add IPA according to the sources I consult, which unfortunately often report different pronunciations from yours. In any case, if something is referenced, you should not remove it altogether, or at least please change the references if you also change the IPA. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 09:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
I wonder how they know we "know & speak English majority of their lives" (not to mention how wonderful it would be if that was something that made someone an expert in English phonetics and phonology). Nardog (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Hyvinge[edit]

You corrected the pronunciation of the Swedish name of Hyvinkää, Hyvinge, to contain a long y and tone 2. Do you have a source for this? I have always heard it pronounced with a short y (by both native and non-native speakers, locals and non-locals of Hyvinkää alike), in addition to which Finland Swedish does not distinguish between tone 1 and tone 2, so that addition also seems dubious. Qwerty12302 (talk | contributions) 12:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

@Qwerty12302: gosh, I’m sorry. I had changed the trabscription because it didn’t match the system used at Help:IPA/Swedish, but I have to admit I was so lazy I didn’t look up any source. I’m going to retranscribe it. Meanwhile, can you find any references? Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:32, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
@Qwerty12302: I don't know whether the first vowel is long or short, but if the pronunciation of that name is established in Stockholm Swedish as having the second toneme then that's how we need to write it. Doing otherwise would (or at least could) be a violation of WP:NPOV and the tonemic system is very easily convertible to the stress one: all you need to do is to treat ⟨²⟩ as synonymous with ⟨ˈ⟩. All dictionaries that provide pronunciation of Swedish words provide the Stockholm one, which is the most neutral Swedish pronunciation. It's also only logical to assume that most learners of Swedish learn Stockholm Swedish, just as most learners of Danish learn Copenhagen Danish and most learners of German learn Hannover German (if you can call the latter that way, you know what I mean). Now, whether they bother to learn to correctly produce the tonemes (and whether they succeed in that) is another story. We shouldn't make that choice for them. One of the most important roles of the IPA transcription of Swedish and Norwegian is to provide the information on tonemes and retroflex consonants. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:20, 1 June 2019 (UTC)


The community has made it clear that use of certain four letter words is not automatically precluded as violations of our civility policy. That said, edit summaries are not a casual interaction on a talk page between a couple of editors who might know each other and know what types of language are mutually acceptable, they are prominently in the history of every article and likely to be read not just by the editor who has been corrected or reverted, but all other editors working on the article who might view the wording usage differently. It's my opinion that no action needs to be taken in terms of removal of any of the edit summaries but I thought you would want to know that some others feel it was worth bringing to your attention.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: I guess you are referring to a few summaries of mine when reverting persistent disruptive edits on IPA transcriptions. I am very sorry for letting myself get carried away. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 13:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
IvanScrooge98, Thanks for that response. I have gotten carried away myself, so know how it can happen. As an aside, I thought it might be better to drop this note to you in an email so it wasn't quite so prominent but I don't think you have email enabled. Of course, no editor is required to have email enabled and I suspect some do not because they don't want to be contacted that way but it's something you might consider. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Beowulf in Old English[edit]

Hi, I would like to query your recent edits to Beowulf and Beowulf (hero).

  • Use of wynn in Old English: Bēoƿulf: I think w is preferable in line with Help:IPA/Old English. Wynn does not display on all devices and, according to wynn, has not been used in transliterating Old English since the early twentieth century.
  • Bēoƿulf in infoboxes: I don't think this is necessary. I would prefer Bēowulf, but the macron over the e is a feature of modern texts rather than the manuscript. Have modern reliable sources used Bēoƿulf or Bēowulf as the title of the poem?
  • PS: I am not an expert on Old English.TSventon (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
@TSventon: oh, I’m not an expert either, I just tried to make the leads of the two pages a little more consistent with each other. I think the simple W-spelling is fine then. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 14:29, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
I agree that using the language templates is an improvement. I have now changed wynn to w. Are you happy for me to remove Bēowulf from the infoboxes? For example Alfred the Great doesn't have an Old Emglish version of his name in the infobox. Do you use Help:IPA/Old English to find an IPA equivalent of the Old English?TSventon (talk) 14:59, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
@TSventon: I think we should have Old English in the infobox, though I have no idea whether there is a specific policy about that. I often check IPA helps to make sure the symbols used in transcriptions match the ones on the linked page, but usually don’t dare to add IPA based on just those pages without prior knowledge on a language's phonetics. For example, I wouldn’t know where stress normally falls in Old English words. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:25, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
OK, leave the infoboxes then. I am glad to have found your talk page, a lot of editors with an interest in linguistics seem to have visited it. TSventon (talk) 09:31, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Question about the way you reference[edit]

I've noticed (mostly on Cameron Boyce, which is on my watchlist) that you add a number using the ref parameter when you use cite templates, and I was curious as to why? (I really took note of it because most references you've added have been edited by someone else to standardize the date (matching it to MDY in other references) and removing that parameter at the same time.) But I don't see people use that parameter often (even for the special harv reason) so I was curious as to why you use it, I guess. - Purplewowies (talk) 16:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Purplewowies: oh, you must be mistaking me someone else, I guess. I actually wondered the same thing when I saw that parameter, as I definitely never used it. I’ll check what it means, who added it and why. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Alright, seems it is an anchor ID you may use to repeat the citation, if I got it right, though it does not look really useful in our case. It was used by Scp1206 (talk · contribs) :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh! Whoops! I mistook the edit where you did something else that happened to highlight that reference in the diff (because it moved) as if you'd been the one to add it, even though I went past your user page on the way here and thought to myself "I don't remember that the time I clicked onto this person briefly last time. That'll teach me to look more closely at what's actually going on in an edit, particularly during the afternoon slump. Heh. - Purplewowies (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@Purplewowies: hahaha, no worries really. We both found out something new. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 19:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I was using the template because I’m a bit inexperienced. I’m really sorry if that’s the wrong way to do it. I’ve just been adding any important info I’ve found. Again, I’m really sorry if I’ve done anything wrong. Scp1206 (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
@Scp1206: it’s fine, we just wanted to understand. Do not worry. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Shy Guy (Mario).png[edit]


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Disambiguation link notification for July 25[edit]

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IPA at S.L. Benfica[edit]

Are you certain of the changes you made? SLBedit (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@SLBedit: I am. the relative help shows nasal dipthongs are only marked on the vocalic part, and per Portuguese phonology post-vocalic /b/ is realized as [β] in European Portuguese. ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:15, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Actually, now that I think of it, is [spɔɾ] even possible? Should it not be [ɨʃˈpɔɾ] instead? Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
The s is pronounced as se in semáforo. The or sound is different from the one in sport because we don't pronounce the t. SLBedit (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
We don't stress the "e" in the "s". SLBedit (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
@SLBedit: oh, I thought you would add an epenthetic vowel at the beginning, as in Spanish, since /s/ + consonant never occurs at the start of a Portuguese word. Thanks a lot anyways. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:41, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
We read the s just like in English. Why the β? These sources ([4] [5]) show b. SLBedit (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
@SLBedit: yeah, I checked those too, but they simply represent phonemic transcriptions rather than phonetic ones, meaning since [β] and [b] do not contrast and are variants of a single phoneme, they are always transcribed /b/ no matter what. Same goes for [ð] and [d], for instance. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Priberam reads sport (with English pronunciation) as ceporte. (We don't pronounce te.) SLBedit (talk) 18:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Okay, means we should add one symbol to the transcription. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Michelle Hunziker (pronunciation)[edit]

Dear Ivan,

Thanks for your comments, I will continue in Italian for simplicity.

Devo dissentire su quanto da te testé esposto in cronologia («in standard pronunciation only [e] and [o] are possible») in quanto affatto confacente al vero. Il ragionamento è fallace e Basta un qualsiasi buon dizionario - che sia di pronunzia, meglio; ma anche generico - ove è possibile ritrovare innumerevoli esempli codificati con quei i fonemi (detti "gergalmente" aperti) ovverosia /ɔ/ ed. /ɛ/ ; non a caso molteplici sostantivi omografi si differenziano semanticamente proprio per tali differenze vocaliche. Aggiungo inoltre, e faccio notare, come nel caso di specie non si stia analizzando un termine proprio della lingua italiana, bensì un cognome di nazionalità straniera, il che affievolisce oltremodo il ragionamento. Cordialità BOSS.mattia (talk) 23:09, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Pwr dimorar vicini al tema, Guardati su un "buon" es. Alchermes, Arciere, bandiera, carriera... [...] son facilmente reperibili.

A disposizione BOSS.mattia (talk) 23:24, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@BOSS.mattia: assolutamente vero, mi riferivo infatti alla pronuncia di E ed O in sillabe atone, come nel caso di Hunziker appunto, e come spiegato nella stessa pagina di aiuto verso la quale punta {{IPA-it}}. Credo per questo che sia fuorviante aggiungere [ˈhuntsikɛr] come possibile pronuncia, per quanto essendo un nome straniero ed essendo la sillaba con E in ultima posizione in una parola sdrucciola sia facile che questa tenda ad aprirsi. Ma se non vado errato qualcosa del genere è spiegato all’articolo Italian phonology, consultabile da chi si trova sulla pagine Help:IPA/Italian. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 08:25, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
in realtà, la "tendenza" cui fai menzione non giustifica la rimozione di tale pronunzia in voce, infatti, ciò che parimenti (e forse di più conta) è la codificazione e contemplazione di casi analoghi nei dizionari e grammatiche e altresì l' uso; su quest'ultimo infatti, nella pressoché assoluta maggioranza dei casi - lei stessa inclusa, mi pare - utilizzi la pronuncia con la "e aperta" /ɛ/ ;) Quindi, a mio avviso andrebbero quantomeno inserite ambedue --BOSS.mattia (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@BOSS.mattia: ciò che la giustifica è infatti, come dicevo, quanto scritto nella pagina d’aiuto: /ɛ/ ed /ɔ/ sono solo toniche. Perché sia accettabile la trascrizione con la vocale medioaperta allora andrebbe modificata tale dicitura. Ti suggerisco di aprire una discussione all’apposita pagina, dimostrando che nella pronuncia standard è possibile avere [ɛ] ed [ɔ] atone in taluni forestierismi (ripeto, le pronunce, come suppongo quella della signora Hunziker, più o meno marcate da una cadenza regionale non sono di norma rappresentate; diverso sarebbe se, per esempio, lei pronunciasse il proprio nome spostandone l’accento su un’altra sillaba, il che avrebbe ricadute anche sulla pronuncia standard). Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:05, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
in realtà ciò che sto cercando di veicolare è che questo è un progetto Wikipedia e non un mero testo teorico, pertanto le scelte, implicazioni e conseguenze fattuali dell'uso da parte dei locutori non viene trascurato, bensì considerato e ponderato. Se noi ci si basasse sulla mera teoria, non avrebbe senso: punto 1. Parlare di pronunzia della lingua italiana, dacché tale e quale dimora solo nei manuali e invero alcuna regione o area collima con la medesima (di fatto: la si studia la dizione corretta, altrimenti alcun italiano la parlerebbe nativamente; con tutte le remore del caso poiché, anche chi di "dizione" ne mastica es. Teatro, cinema, tv... di rado la applica sempre e comunque "alla lettera"); punto 2. Si dà una rappresentazione fallace e assai ristretta (élitaria, mi siera passi il termine) della realtà, a detrimento della o delle pronunce realmente esistenti in italiano e fattualmente impiegate. ; punto 3. Viene meno il principio wikipediano e, parimenti - giusto per far un paragone - implicherebbe il celarsi gli occhi (e non solo) riguardo all'italiano neo-standard: se cosi fosse, stando alla tua rigida definizione, wikipedia dovrebbe essere totalmente riscritta poiche intrisa di quegli elementi e caratteristiche del neostandard, ch'altro non sono se non le mere applicazioni, usi e mutamenti d'una lingua fluida, viva e in continuo e costante evoluzione. Considerati tutti gli elementi testé proposto, consiglio una dedita riflessione in merito, prima di giungere anzitempo ad una conclusione ("personale")... si contempli la reciprocità della mutualità.. A disposizione BOSS.mattia (talk) 22:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@BOSS.mattia: non sto affrettando le conclusioni, la questione è semplicemente che le trascrizioni fonetiche che puntano ad una pagina di aiuto ad essa devono rifarsi affinché siano comprensibili ai lettori che masticano poco o per nulla l’Alfabeto Fonetico. Perciò ti sto dicendo che non ho nulla in contrario ad una trascrizione del tipo [ˈhuntsikɛr] una volta che si è discusso e cambiata la guida in modo da ammetterne una simile, ma non prima. Rispetto ad altri usi “neo-standard” la questione è dunque alquanto diversa. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

One of your ...[edit]

... pronunciation thingies would come in handy, and is well needed for the regular reader of English, at the top of the lead here. I don't know how to do them properly, as you do. With English phonetics the word is pronounced like Bee-ellbow. Have a look? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

PS put it after the first mention of the word, and don't bother with -ätten. Thx. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: sure. Do you have any reference we can list for the English pronunciation? You know, just in case it is removed or anything. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 11:59, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
No, sorry, none other than my fluent Swedish. Only a Swede who thinks it's wrong would remove it, and since it's accurate as described, I doubt that would happen. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
@SergeWoodzing: don’t worry. I also added Swedish for the alternative name; btw, I think in this case the IPA is short enough to just be kept outside a note. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 12:18, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Well done! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)


I misread your edit in the Giacomo Agostini article. Sorry about that.Orsoni (talk) 18:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Orsoni: no worries. I noticed you didn’t revert it anymore and I understood you had done it by mistake. :D Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 18:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for the corrections to my IPA. I do know that [k] and [c] are different -- stupid error. --Macrakis (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Macrakis: you are welcome :) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 19:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for IPA on Canzo[edit]

Saluti, fratello~ I wanted to thank you and tell you how pleasantly surprised was to see how you filled out my tag for a Cáenz local dialect IPA on Canzo. I would have NEVER expected that anytime soon! Where did you learn such an apparently obscure dialect? Is this native as you know Lombard, or do you study local dialects as well? I absolutely adore and am fascinated by local dialects and want them to be preserved. :( Please link me any good resources you know to learn about them, do you read any books or sites about this kind of thing? Thank you again.~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 21:27, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sigehelmus: you are welcome! It feels good to be appreciated, but actually there has been a little of a ‘fight’ over the pronunciation (see the page history) also involving a user from Canzo. Apparently, the local dialect does not feature nasalization as Milanese or Western Brianzoeu (my dialect) do. And [kaːnts] would not fit the related IPA help, so I left a broader trabscription. When I saw the “needed” tag I thought I could reinstate the Canzés pronunciation using {{IPA-all}}, which is what I did. So basically it’s about two native Lombard speakers rather than books or anything about it. I actually wish there were any complete resources on the topic, of which I am very fond too. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 21:39, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98: Ahhh I see, I think I remember how I can relate to such conflict. :( It is interesting and I hope your transcription stays. Do you think you could try local transcriptions for every village with an article in this region, is that a goal of yours? I must confess, for my transcriptions I tend to rely on automatic sites band my limited self knowledge haha. I am glad I met someone else who seems to be similar to me here too. Also one more question: Can you tell me a sentence in the dialect you were born with? Like any casual sentence, how you were raised. That would be very fascinating and I wish I was born with my own - an ancient, distinctive one anyway. :)~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 21:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
@Sigehelmus: not really a goal, even though I sometimes provide the IPA for local names in Italy if I am sure of how I should transcribe it. As we have pointed out, it is difficult to do so without a reliable, possibly academic, source (looking forward to finding any someday). Well, I could tell you that semm anmò al camp di cent pertegh (a phrase loosely translating to “we still have a long way to go”) when it comes to Italian regional languages. ;) Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 07:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)


"[ɐ̯] either everywhere or nowhere" is a false choice. No reputable source, apart from JIPA, uses [ɐ̯] after the short vowels. You may think that [ɐ̯] and the uvular approximant are similar because you're mistaking [ɐ̯] for "any non-syllabic central-to-back vowel", which it's not. German [ɐ̯] is [ɐ̯] or simply [a̯]. In German, /Vr/ is either vocalized or not, and the vocalization in this case is a replacement of the consonantal variety of /r/ with an open (not mid) central (not back) unrounded vowel. If the vowel is too close or too back, you're mishearing a uvular approximant for a vowel.

[aɐ̯] and [aːɐ̯] do not exist in German. These are either [aː] and [aː] (homophonous), [aʁ] and [aːʁ] (distinguished by length), [aʁ] and [aː] (distinguished by length and the presence vs. absence of [ʁ]) or [a(ː)ʁ] and [a(ː)ʁ] (again homophonous, with an approximant after the vowel but both vowels having variable length). It's a bad practice to write [aɐ̯].

The vocalization of /r/ in Standard German is variable after short vowels and mandatory after long vowels (perhaps excluding /aː/, but only sometimes). "[ɐ̯] nowhere" is a non-option. See [6] and especially the comments (click on "Show Comments" below the article), which show that [ɔɐ̯] might also be a controversial transcription ([ɔ] is articulated close to the uvular position, so producing [ʁ] after it is just a matter of unrounding your lips and slightly constricting the back of your tongue, rather than unrounding your lips and moving the tongue to the open central position where German /a/ resides.

I agree that this is something we should discuss on Help talk:IPA/Standard German. Actually there already is a discussion about this, here. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I understand what you’re saying, but what I am suggesting is to be consistent with the transcription of syllable-final /r/ for vocalizing varieties, considering there seems to be variation (also implying, maybe explaining it in a note, that ⟨aɐ̯⟩ and ⟨aːɐ̯⟩ may actually be either of the realizations above); imagine if, e.g., for French phonemic /ʁ/ we didn’t always use the same symbol and instead chose to list [ʁ], [ʁ̞], [χ] and [χ˕] (afaik French uvular R tends to an approximant in syllable coda); we don’t because it just wouldn’t be practical for readers and because each realization is perfectly predictable based on the environment. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 10:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Still, I thank you for your recent edit on the help. It is useful to set a standard to follow. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 10:09, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, there is variation, but the uvular approximant seems to be the norm in careful speech, especially after close and mid vowels, but probably more so after the back ones than the front ones. It's in line with using [ɛː] as a vowel separate from [eː]. And again, no source (except for the JIPA article, to the best of my knowledge) writes /Vr/ (where "V" stands for a short vowel) as [Vɐ̯].
Could you revisit your edits in which you changed [ʁ] to [ɐ̯] and undo those changes to match the guide? They weren't really changes of [ʁ] to [ɐ̯] per help as the guide was ambiguous. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:45, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
@Kbb2: yes, I will try to review a bit when I can. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 11:52, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, that'd be much appreciated. The rule "don't write [ɐ̯] after short vowels" is a bit tricky in some cases (e.g. zerstören really is [tsɛɐ̯ˈʃtøːʁən] in careful speech, in ordinary speech it's [tsɐˈʃtøːʁən]). I'll list those exceptions in the guide. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:59, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
The rule is about /ɛr/ being vocalized to [ɛɐ̯] in unstressed prefixes er-, her-, ver- and zer-, as in SpVgg Greuther Fürth. The vocalization also occurs when there's another /r/ after /Vr/ (where V, again, stands for a short vowel), as in Dürrröhrsdorf-Dittersbach. The pronunciation [ˈdʏɐ̯ʁøːɐ̯sˌdɔʁf] (phonemically /ˈdʏr.røːrs.ˌdɔrf/) occurs because the sequence [ʁ.ʁ] is banned from occuring word-internally in Standard German (unless you speak with a Swiss accent - but that's not the Standard German we're talking about here). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

as agreed[edit]

You do realise that "as agreed" is a meaningless edit summary if you don't point to where the agreement was made. SpinningSpark 13:55, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Spinningspark: you are right, I’m sorry; I rushed a bit and didn’t link, but it started at Nuremberg as you see above and Kbb2 decided to be more specific in the help, so he edited it and now we are settling the transcriptions accordingly. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 14:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Your signature[edit]

Ruby is a bad idea. It gratuitously increases the height of the line that contains the signature. Nardog (talk) 15:27, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: Sorry. I will provide to edit it as soon as possible. ∼イヴァンスクルージ九十八IvanScrooge98会話talk 15:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, but the ruby above the talk link is still affecting the line height. Nardog (talk) 08:38, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

September 2019[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. --Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 07:15, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

How to ping[edit]

Just so you know, this doesn't fire off a notification to Ardalazzagal. A notification will be sent only if a link to a user page is included in a new line preceding a signature. See Help:Notifications and Help:Fixing failed pings. Nardog (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

A word of advice[edit]

I stayed away from the ANI thread partly because I have been staying away from all ANI threads of late, and partly because I know very little about Germanic languages that any linguist who happens to come from an English-speaking country wouldn't know and I hate when laymen attempt to adjudicate issues with editors making certain kinds of contents with Seems fine to me- or Doesn't seem fine to me-type rationales and I didn't want to be a hypocrite.

But it does seem like a large number of editors in this topic have a problem with your edits. So I'm going to give you a bit of advice (call it a "warning" if you so choose, I guess): stop doing what you've been doing. There was no consensus to topic ban you at ANI, but that is not the same as there being consensus that you did nothing wrong. I have seen editors repeatedly take "no consensus to topic ban" as an indication that they had not been in the wrong, and it didn't end well.[7]

Take my advice or leave it, but you really, really should do the former.

Hijiri 88 (やや) 00:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: thanks for the advice! But don’t worry, I’ll take the question very seriously from now on, and only proceed with editing when I know what I’m doing. I’ll be careful. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 08:26, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Japanese pronunciation of sashimi[edit]

Checking the background of the Japanese pronunciation given in the sashimi article, I discovered that you were the one to introduce the current transcription in 2015, changing [saɕimiꜜ] to [saɕi̥mi] ([8]). What was your reason for this change? Libhye (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Libhye: gosh, totally forgot about thay edit. I thought it was wrong, and I apologize for editing the transcription without properly checking the phonetics (e.g. vowel devoicing does not occur before nasals). 2019 me would have undone that, as [saɕimiꜜ] is definitely the correct one. Sorry again. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 14:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Libhye: regarding this, would you mind changing the note at Help:IPA/Japanese, citing your source? Thanks. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 14:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)