Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search



Lo meiin[edit]

Not currently actionable, but Lo meiin is warned to avoid battleground-like conduct. Sandstein 07:41, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Lo meiin[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
WarKosign (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 18:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Lo meiin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 (as well as WP:1RR and WP:CIV)
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. September 18 A revert in the I/P area, which they are not supposed to be editing at all
  2. September 18 Second revert within minutes
  1. September 11 Personal attack
  2. September 17 battleground mentality
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 

None, a new user

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

Lo meiin is a new user who immediately took interest in the I/P area. They opened multiple garbled RFCs (1, 2, 3), two of them on the same article at the same time. Responded in uncivil manner to an opinion they didn't like and repeatedly made significant POV changes against consensus.

Regarding the connection to WP:ARBIPWP:ARBPIA - at List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia the user made many edits, most of them adjusting the table entry on State of Palestine according to their POV: [1]. I agree that most of the article is not relevant to WP:ARBIPWP:ARBPIA, but entry on SoP is, even without "broadly construed". This came after their edit request was rejected and an RFC State of Palestine didn't seem to go the way they wanted. WarKosign 19:29, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
My understanding that an article containing (among many other things) descriptions of Israel and State of Palestine and their partial recognition *is* related to the conflict. Perhaps my interpretation is broad, but this is what WP:ARBPIA tells us to do: "The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted". WarKosign 20:26, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
If you still disagree with my interpretation - sorry about wasting your time. I would appreciate a clarification. However, before you dismiss the case I would ask you to clarify to Lo meiin that DS topics are not a good starting place for a new editor, and that they should be civil and avoid edit wars. I'm afraid that otherwise the user will soon repeat the same pattern on an article that is directly relevant to A-I conflict without any need for broad interpretation. WarKosign 20:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

Notified

Discussion concerning Lo meiin[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Lo meiin[edit]

First of all I’d like to begin by refuting the allegations made against me. I started out filing an admin notice on auh20s talk page as I saw he is engaged in editing conflict with some editors not as a personal attack but as an appropriate means of dispute resolution. I’ve also requested countless RFCs, 3O before editing, and I even recognized where I went wrong apologized and learned from the experience in order to grow as an new editor. In addition, even after I apologized, I was labelled profanely as a “punk”, despite condemning previous personal attacks on auh20 republican by other editors. Why I combined both generally and substantially recognized states in Asia together is to avoid contention over the issue and satisfy all parties to the dispute. In addition, I attempted to present the facts in an NPOV manner by plainly and objectively stating the facts and by making no significant changes to Taiwan and Palestine’s labelling. Despite my personal reservations on the issue and me being mainland Chinese, I conceded to labelling Taiwan as a “country” for the sake of Wikipedia. Auh20 and his ally warkosign (who happens to be Israeli, making him POV on the issue) are once again hungry for conflict by reverting these edits, possibly due to their bias towards Israel over Palestine. I would also like to mention that auh20 has made several reverts to already established articles that group un member and observer states together to impose his view without previous consent. I suggest combining the two categories together to end this ceaseless feud and to turn to a new chapter on Wikipedia; and if this request is granted, I will vow never to edit any Arab- Israeli related articles until I am a confirmed user.

Lo meiin (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy[edit]

There was supposed to be some sort of clarification on broadly vs reasonably construed and what is subject to the edit-restriction. AFAIK, currently only articles that are themselves as a whole related to the conflict are covered, and edits elsewhere, such at Airbnb, and consequently List of sovereign states, are not. nableezy - 20:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph[edit]

ARBPIA 30/500 is clear and the amendment request referenced here is also clear. The article itself should not be under ECP but the editor should be blocked for violating ARBPIA 30/500 and for being disruptive. He was warned several times that he can't make edits in this subject area and that talk page edits are generally allowed if they're not being disruptive (I am not sure if RFC's are allowed). We had a similar case over at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive256#Bill_Josephs just a few days ago where a new user was behaving similarly and was blocked. This seems to me a clear case and not sure we need a drawn out AE action and most certainly don't need any more articles protected. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

On your part, you are in no position to tell me what to do in this matter when you yourself are a POV editor and advocate for the state of Israel

Lo meiin (talk) 01:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by AuH2ORepublican[edit]

  • In my defense, I reverted that article several times in order to try to return to the status quo ante (this after a week of imploring Lo meiin to seek consensus in the Talk page); other editors similarly reverted Lo meein during the past two weeks after his relentless, POV edits.
As for the editor's passive-aggressive insult to WarKosign, that was after he "learned" how to be civil. Not long ago, he accused me in an administrative noticeboard of "hav[ing] depicted Palestinians are [sic] a mindless, anti Semitic, radical and insolent people" (and I asked him to apologize for his calumny for weeks before he finally did so) and asked in a Talk page "And AuH20, food for thought, do you hate Palestinians and Taiwanese people yourself?", so his insults have become more nuanced and refined as time goes on. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 20:52, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • In reaction to Lo meiin's statement (see above), while I don't think that this is the correct forum to discuss the proper presentation of sovereign states in Wikipedia (the proper forum being the Talk pages of such articles), and thus will forgo doing so, I will respond to Lo meein's claim that I insulted him when I referred to him (in my own Talk page, in response to another editor urging me to press a harassment claim against Lo meein due to his persistent insults) as a "punk." As I responded to Lo meein when he chided me for the appellation in my Talk page:
I referred to you as a "punk" right after I was made aware that your latest cowardly insult to me was to add the following comment to a Talk page in which you already had insulted me: "And AuH20, food for thought, do you hate Palestinians and Taiwanese people yourself?" So I was being polite when I referred to you as a "punk" instead of using more appropriate words to describe you.
This also was after Lo meein insultingly had claimed that I "have depicted Palestinians are [sic] a mindless, anti Semitic, radical and insolent people," so, under the circumstances, my referring to him as a "punk" showed remarkable self-restraint on my part. Oh, and Lo meein did not apologize for his insults until afterwards, so, contrary to what Lo meein claims, I did not call him a "punk" after he already had apologized. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:31, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Lo meiin[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I guess I'm struggling to figure out a connection to WP:ARBIP — that article is not under (any) discretionary sanctions El_C 19:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oh, WP:ARBPIA. Okay. But that article is still not under (any) discretionary sanctions. El_C 19:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Um. The edit is certainly related to Palestine, but the article isn't, and therefore isn't under discretionary sanctions. Therefore it isn't extended-protected (and never has been), so WarKosign is incorrect with this edit-summary. I do note that another editor, User:AuH2ORepublican has reverted seven times on that article in the last two days, including a 3RR violation, so perhaps a 1RR restriction (on the article) might be useful. (Incidentally, "you clearly have no political knowledge and probably failed your geography class ... Thank you and no offense intended" is superb, perhaps more users should follow this method if they have to be incivil). Black Kite (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Closed as not actionable. The article is not related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The personal attack was prior to the DS notification. But we do have indications of battleground conduct, so I'm warning Lo meein to behave. If not, bans or blocks are likely. Sandstein 07:41, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

WikipediansSweep[edit]

WikipediansSweep is indefinitely topic-banned from everything related to fringe science, including but not limited to Walter Russell. Sandstein 17:49, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning WikipediansSweep[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
CaptainEek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 07:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
WikipediansSweep (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions :
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [2] Edit warring
  2. [3] Edit warring
  3. [4] Edit warring
  4. [5] Edit warring and editing while logged out
  5. [6] Very uncivil comment/borderline PA made at me while I was trying to calmly ask Bradv for advice
  6. [7] Barely sensical ramblings on WP:FTN
  7. [8] Claiming Einstein was a fringe scientist
  8. [9] Rather long rant that boils down to 1. strong bias for article in question 2. Pseudoscience ramblings 3. WP:BATTLEGROUND
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

[10] Alerted to DS in PSCI by Bradv on September 7

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

I originally got pulled into this debate (on whether Walter Russell was a genius and discovered Plutonium before Niels Bohr, among other issues) as a result of a WP:3O request. I tried to be very calm, civil, and helpful, and took WikipediansSweeps less than civil behavior and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in stride. But after more than a week, its become clear that WikipediansSweep is a WP:SPA who strongly wants Walter Russell to be portrayed in their chosen POV. For additional evidence of WP:IDHT and WP:BATTLEGROUND, see Talk:Walter_Russell#Third_opinion, and Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Walter_Russell. Please let me know if I've done anything wrong in this request, I have never filed a claim at AE before, and the process is a bit confusing. I tried to be very patient with WikipediansSweep, and I'm dissapointed it had to come to this. Smooth sailing, Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 07:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

[11]

Discussion concerning WikipediansSweep[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by WikipediansSweep[edit]

Concerning the above comments in regards to changing or reverting edits that do not match the criteria prescribed recently does not seem to be ingeniune as i am actually finding sources which support the conclusions and statements i have undone edits on. One example is the Modern Leonardo claim about Walter Russell which I supported in the talk portion of the article. There have also been sweeping edits in regards to multiple paragraph deletions and other credibly sourced portions upon which i am now paying for subscriptions to support and to find. The fact this man was an architect, painter, sculptor, speaker, musician, ice skater, and inventor are all supported in my sources recently mentioned. I do not have a battle ground mentality but request sensible edits that do not step over the bounds to match someones point of view rather than find the material questionable without research. I do find a lot of edits sensible and have not touched those, but major edits in regards to things as simple as personal history to well documented sources and saying "read the rules" as its justification whenever it fails to even meet that criteria is a bit absurd. I admit to somewhat of senseless ramblings but let us be humble and admit our shortcomings and imperfections. I also do believe Einstein was somewhat fringe in the years he published his famous papers which were originally scorned and then brought up many worlds theory and how it was initially scorned, both were seemingly fringe at the time, the mentioned how planck stated that science progresses one funeral at a time. But there are some ramblings in there i do admit. But i am simply trying to publish the truth out into the world and am conforming to every standard i see that requires more due dilligence. For example there was major edits done in regards to this man bein a master musician, artist, sculptor, architect, and how was able to successfully defend his points in the new york times against outspoken scientist, where i have them, albeit clumsily in an failed embedded format, sourced. This man was also personal friends of thomas edison, mark twain, and theodore roosevelt, and many more outstanding people in our society. I also am using a mobile device for most of this if not nearly all so forgive my lagish response and failure to be more formal in multiple places such as this. I also am noting how many warnings i received and honestly have only gotten one on this end. Also my friend above, whom i thought i was in good standing with now due to my lengthy sourcing last night, originally deemed this man a kook, quack, and in my opinion shot from the hip and demanded major editing was required on this article due to simply being ill informed. Also it seems as if i am the one doing the most work on the page as i am the one find sources, and asking for validation on edits rather than "fringe stuff removed" sweeping edits that include many things not considered fringe. It was a mans unique universal perspective or philosophy if nothing more being removed as fringe to where it begets the concern on how philosophy itself doesn't classify into the same spectrum. All of which i have asked for clarity on in the talk page with some but not adequate response. So apologies as i am in an attempt to actually uncover the truth in a format befitting to all readers, not defend my point of view strictly in regards to this individual. But obviously one of the best painters, sculptors, architects, and considered by a considerable few a polymath does not seem to be quackery by any stretch of the imagination. There are articles of him giving edison medals of honor from his society and it seems almost foolish to see a man never deemed a quack in his time of prominence to be in our times deemed such by people whom lack the full information on him. I am doing my best with the little i have and do not adopt battle ground mentality but a sturdy one finding only support for my claims. I apologize if this is over my word count. (Added 10 minutes after original comment: as i said i have only received one warning on this end and admit to somewhat senseless ramblings, i am using a mobile device mostly due to situational standards, i do apologize for the lagginess and informality of much of my input, i also apologize for seemingly brutish behavior which is not intended as such, i am only trying to find the actual material accepted by standards laid out here and question the exact reasons behind some things not being seen as reasonable sources, and i have a very limited pallet, and somehow even with 10 other editors, i can, on my phone, validate many claims with dozenz of sources previously deemed kookie by other editors, that should be stating something, i hope to be in good standing and will continue to find other sources, something i was in the process of until i saw this) WikipediansSweep (talk) 08:15, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional: look i will take this as a formal warning because i am new to editing on wiki and for the most part am swamped in response complexities i find it hard to retort. I will cool it on my end and keep the discussion strictly professional and if there are further warnings you can ban me.

For now I'm the only one adding source information previously deemed unfindable and thrown to the way side with lack of scrutiny. It honestly seems as if no one is reading those either and it seems the edits go far beyond the bounds of normal desire to present the facts and instead with a scorn for something that goes against the mainstream. Almost as if the vigor against faith healing is applied to this. That is my two cents though, I would honestly love to hear advice and feedback as it seems many eyes will view this and would be beneficial.

WikipediansSweep (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning WikipediansSweep[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • The request seems to have merit (pending a response by WikipediansSweep). I think a topic ban from fringe science, including Walter Russell, is in order. Sandstein 07:55, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • The rambling response by WikipediansSweep confirms my view. Sandstein 08:51, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Looks to me like a pretty clear indefinite topic ban from fringe science topics, broadly construed.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:03, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • This sort of issue is why the discretionary sanctions on pseudoscience article exist - endorse the indefinite topic ban, broadly construed - David Gerard (talk) 09:06, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Holy Crap Batman. Yes, a topic-ban is called for. It should be indefinite, and lifted only if they demonstrate the ability to be a net positive elsewhere. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:39, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 21:35, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Discretionary_sanctions :
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_(1932_cutoff) :
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. (edit summary) 05:14, 19 September 2019, a personal attack (“known troll”, “in an effort to bolster WP:FRINGE nonsense defending Nazism” and more)
  2. (edit summary) 18:14, 19 September 2019, a personal attack again ("Stop defending Hitler!"), even after receiving a notification/reminder about discretionary sanctions in the Eastern Europe subject area
  3. [12], [13], [14], [15],[16],[17] - All these edits seem to be in a violation of his topic ban of American politics [18]. The topic ban concerns “all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States”. That covers foreign politics and wars by the United States. TTAC just decided to completely ignore his topic ban.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 
  1. [19], 7 February 2018 - topic ban on editing in the area of US politics imposed by Sandstein
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
  • The contributor was previously sanctioned at WP:AE and frequently contributed with comments, complaints and appeals on WP:AE [20]
  • [21] - a notification for EE area, 16:49, 19 September 2019
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
I thought TTAAC would apologize [22] and start discussion of a disagreement [23] after his edit (diff #1). However, instead of doing just that, he responded with another offense (diff#2).
Note that in the both diffs, #1 and #2, TTAC restored the following text: "Suvorov is often accused (or praised by historical revisionists) of shifting the blame of World War II on Stalin...[citation needed]... In his later books, Suvorov insists that Stalin was a true evil genius (although unlucky), while describing Hitler as evil but grossly incompetent.[citation needed]" This is an obvious WP:OR content which was unsourced for a long time, possibly also a WP:BLP problem. Also note that TTAAC never edited this page before. He just followed my edit to blindly revert and make an offensive edit summary.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

Discussion concerning TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

This is obviously a frivolous request for the reasons laid out by Paul Siebert below, and in far greater detail than the request deserves. My very best wishes's diffs simply do not support his claims. In fact, the bad faith displayed by MVBW in reinstating the apparently pro-Nazi IP's deletions is obvious from Icebreaker (Suvorov)'s revision history, where MVBW is edit warring with several users over long-standing content dating back as far as a decade ago, while pretending that it was recently added by an IP (as if that would be sufficient explanation for his edit). Note that MVBW also removed sources only to cite the lack of sources as justification for further deletions, omitting the consensus of academic historians in favor of the following profoundly misleading "summary": "Rolf-Dieter Müller a former professor of military history at Humboldt University who served as the scientific director at the Center for Military History and Social Sciences of the Bundeswehr states that Hitler claimed that he had been forced to counter Soviet expansionism with a preemptive strike." (Hitler may have claimed this, but RS do not take official statements by Hitler at face value.) This case should be dismissed and MVBW should be discouraged from gaming the system to "win" content disputes.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:45, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Paul Siebert[edit]

First of all, US ban should be discussed elsewhere.

Regarding the rest,

  • This edit summary is actually correct: the IP MVBW is referring to just restored the text removed by another IP. This second IP(97.115.131.125) made just two edits, another one removed information about persecution of Jews, which allows us to claim that IP is whitewashing Hitler and blames USSR and US lend-lease in the German attack of USSR. Therefore, by removing the content that was previously removed by an obvious pro-Nazi IP, MVBW implicitly supported it. Therefore, a deeper analysis is needed to figure out if TheTimesAreAChanging's edit summary was a personal attack, or it was just an adequate description of what happened.
  • The MVBW's edit summary is questionable in other aspects: he claimed that the text removed by one IP was added by another IP. However, first, that is not a legitimate reason for removal: any IP is allowed to edit. Second, this statement is actually false: this content was a result of a collective work of several users, for example, a significant part of the fragment removed by a pro-Nazi IP and then by MVBW was added, and properly sourced, by me in 2009.
  • By removing properly sourced material under a misleading edit summary, MVBW committed a serious violation. That is exacerbated by the fact that he was de facto acting as a proxy of an antisemitic IP.
  • Importantly, significant amount of evidences that became available to me allows me to suspect that this and similar MVBW's actions are not just good faith errors. Thus, upon having read TTAAC's edit summary (TTAAC mentioned the EEML case), I decided to refresh my mind about this case, and looked through my talk page archive. I found this: look at the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list section. During this discussion that took place in 2009, User:Viriditas was trying to convince me to read EEML emails, because the EEML members were contemplating something against me. I recall, in 2009, I refused to read EEML's emails, but after I realised that Biophys may be dangerous not only for me, but for other users too, I decided to take a brief look at those emails, which are currently easy to find. What I found shocked me and dispelled my remaining beliefs in Biophys/MVBW's good faith.

I had no illusions about MVBW even before, he is not welcome on my talk page, and I am not commenting on his comments. I imposed a voluntary interaction ban on myself. However, I was taking no actions against him, because I believed that that was only my problem. Now I started to realise that his activity is harmful for Wikipedia in general, and I would like to present evidences against him. In connection to that, it would be correct to suspend this case, and to wait for arbitrators' opinion on the evidences I am going to present. If the conclusion will be that I am right, then the TTAAC's edit summary was just a statement of fact, although redundantly emotional one. If the decision will be in MVBW's favour, than TTAAC's words are a personal attack. Since I was not going to report Biophys/MVBW before that case, I need some time to collect the evidences. Should I present them here, or they should be a separate case?--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:55, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Drmies, I mean fresh evidences, but those old emails appeared to be instrumental for understanding some recent events. And, please, keep in mind that in 2009 I abstained from presenting any evidences against EEML members (although now I realize I probably should have done that), and I am currently maintaining good relationships with some of them. With regard to OUTING, I named noone, except one person who repeatedly attempted to OUT me (and, as I now realize, those plans go back to 2009).--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:43, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies[edit]

Just one thing: will this EEML shit ever cease? And why on earth does TheTimesEtc. think this is somehow appropriate to bring up in an edit summary? I have been rev/deleting EEML references and old user names since they really constitute OUTING--and here we go again. But really, in the end: this is all water under the bridge, and should be disregarded/not mentioned/removed. Editors should be judged NOT on what happened a decade ago which somehow might be construed to be relevant today. Sheesh. Paul Siebert, I don't know what "evidences" you are trying to present, but I sure hope they are younger than my children. Drmies (talk) 00:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.