Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive130

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Deleted Articles[edit]

When an article is deleted, is it somehow still accessible if the content was wanted for reference, to restore the article, or to use it in another article?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 20:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

An admin is usually able to restore deleted articles & copy to userspace to be worked on. Easiest thing is to ask one listed in Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 20:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no guarantee by the developers that deleted articles will remain available forever. We also haven't had reason to discard them in years. GRBerry 21:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you both for your replies. Wanderer57 (talk) 04:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Urgent external canvassing/disruptive article creation problem[edit]

[1] Blatant canvassing in an attempt to stop the deletion of Michael L. Vincent. User also says he’s made “a couple extra copies of the article so they can't get them all.” I suggest that that the creation of other articles with this title should be blocked immediately. --S.dedalus (talk) 23:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Incident may be resolved now with the blocking of a puppeteer. --S.dedalus (talk) 01:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There's another, Mike L. Vincent. I have no idea how it could be speedied/ i.e. what criteria so I'm bringing it here. Thanks! TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 03:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted the redirect. Natalie (talk) 16:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Strange image vandalism?[edit]

Something strange. The image at Houtman Abrolhos#Temperature and salinity has suddenly changed, for me at least, to that Wikipedia article breakdown image - you know, the one with "Pokemon characters", "Crappy Myspace bands", "actually useful stuff", etc. I assumed vandalism - either a Wikipedia image shadowing the Commons image, or a new version uploaded over the top of the Commons image. Neither appears to be the case. I've purged everything I can think of and I'm still seeing it. Are others seeing it too, or is it just me. I'm posting here because I still suspect that there is vandalism at the bottom of this, I just can't figure out how it has been done. Hesperian 12:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears normal to me --Melburnian (talk) 12:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Well it looks like a misrendered version of Image:Size_of_English_Wikipedia_broken_down.png to me. I guess it is some kind of personal browser cache issue. I've never experienced anything like it. Okay, thanks Melburnian. Back to work everyone else. Hesperian 13:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Nothing showing on my imac SatuSuro 13:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Bizarre, I checked the image's history and no vandalism has taken place, maybe you need to refresh your cache in case that this is the product of some old vandalism at the page itself. - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Improper archiving of a user category for discussion[edit]

Category:Wikipedians who have read the BIG HUGE FREAKING PURPLE BOX has been archived as a speedy keep for the time being as being too close to the events which inspired it. The archived version does not include at least one "keep" reason which was in the original. It has also been closed as a "delete" on the active UCfD page. I can't work out who did what or why, because of inadequate edit summaries from the closers and archivers. I am in the process of leaving Wikipedia and would like the record of any debates in which I have participated to be accurate. I know it is a big ask, but is there anyone with an interest in keeping archived debates accurate and honest who can sort it out please? Thank you, and I hope goodbye. DuncanHill (talk) 15:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

One link to the debate is Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion#Category:Wikipedians_who_have_read_the_BIG_HUGE_FREAKING_PURPLE_BOX. DuncanHill (talk) 15:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
And the other version is at Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/February_2008#Category:Wikipedians_who_have_read_the_BIG_HUGE_FREAKING_PURPLE_BOX. DuncanHill (talk) 15:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what you're asking, but there were two separate nominations. One was closed on 14 February 2008 by jc37 (talk · contribs) for the odd reason that it was too soon to nominate it. As such, a week went by and the category was nominated a second time. After the discussion, Black Falcon (talk · contribs) closed it as deleted. What is not accurate or honest here? - auburnpilot talk 15:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
My apologies for missing that, however it remains true that the initial archivinh was inaccurate as it did not include all the !votes in the discussion at the date itr was archived. DuncanHill (talk) 15:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
My further apologies, I have reviewed my contributions and it appears I am mistaken, thank you and good bye. DuncanHill (talk) 15:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem. For the record, the discussion was archived in the very same manner as it appeared on the discussion page. - auburnpilot talk 15:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I had not been aware of the first nomination, as it appears no-one bothered to inform the category creator of it. I hope this will be my last edit ever! DuncanHill (talk) 15:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The concept of "improper archiving" is new to me. Will this instruction creep never end? The Mediawiki software (upon which Wikipedia runs) retains, by design, extensive archives of everything written on every single discussion page, ever--in fact it is necessary to go to considerable lengths to remove a single comment from the page history, unless one happens to have the rare and very parsimoniously applied "oversight" privilege. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 16:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well - it's jargon. It's called archiving because that's what the text of the templates say, but as a verb what it _means_ is "to close a discussion by drawing a box around it", and it's often considered rude to do so with an active discussion unless there is a time limit that has been agreed on in advance. —Random832 17:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Extensive canvassing on a DRV[edit]

Cdogsimmons has engaged in extensive canvassing on the deletion review of Category:Wikipedians who support Hezbollah (by extensive, I mean over 150 talk page edits regarding this issue. Some of these notices were predicated on membership here (where membership is likely to indicate the way most might comment), while others were based on discussion here (I don't know whether those notices were neutral or geared toward one point of view). Thoughts? Ral315 (talk) 06:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

He notified me based on the ANI discussion - and I am hardly on his side about the matter. NO problem with that - but the <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="">Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship/Members canvassing does appear to cross the line. That said, it would seem that it has been done in good faith, as he hasn't just chosen people that would definitely support his POV. ViridaeTalk 06:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Having had a look at the wikiproject: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship, I am revising my view to say that this is all well intentioned, but misplaced - the wikiproject specifically says they don't cover userboxes etc. ViridaeTalk 06:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Contacting the "anti-censorship" project might have been iffy, but they don't care about the Great Userbox Wars. Other than that, he seems to have contacted everyone who weighed in on the ANI, and most of those people were either anti-Hezbollah-userbox or fed up with the whole thing. I don't see why JxG had to revert all of those "canvassing" posts. It was obnoxious. <eleland/talkedits> 06:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree that I don't see the point of Guy mass-reverting 138 edits. Was this defined as vandalism somewhere? Isn't that what rollback is supposed to be exclusively used for? Franamax (talk) 07:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Further state that I believe the only reason the post was not removed from my talk page was that I had responded to it, thus it was not subject to rollback; I appreciated the post and responded with my views; and I would ask JzG to please never remove a post from my talk page without at least providing an edit summary. Franamax (talk) 07:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
150 talk page posts is inappropriate canvassing, and rollback does not provide an edit summary. Guy (Help!) 09:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm also concerned about this mass-reversion of messages. I saw the message Cdogsimmons left me, had a look at DR, & decided that I had nothing useful to say. Then this morning I received the notice that someone else had left me a message, & found nothing; only after a look at my page history did I see that Guy had rolled it back, & wondered WTF was going on. (Was Cds a troublemakere? Or just someone on the outs with the current Wikipedia in-crowd?) Whether or not Cds was canvassing (which FWIW I don't think he was), having his message removed without an explanation bothers me more than what Cds did. It was not handled well -- although handling things badly on Wikipedia seems to be more & more the norm nowadays, & Guy is hardly the worse example of this. :-/ llywrch (talk) 16:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
My apologies to anyone who was offended or annoyed by my messages. Please believe that it was not my intent to disrupt or bias the debate. My intent was to inform and notify. I will avoid such canvassing in the future and try to use the appropriate message board. Again I apologize to those who were disturbed. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 00:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem, excess of zeal is quite forgivable and I fixed it in no time. Guy (Help!) 21:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard[edit]

I've done the bold thing and created Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, which was the last core/major policy whose implications seem to get fought over all the time and lead to no small number of edit wars. Lawrence § t/e 16:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm just a little dubious about this. It's going to be mostly redundant - we have a lot of noticeboards. How do you determine neutrality? Via reliable sources - and we already have WP:RSN. Neutrality problems on BLPs already go to WP:BLPN: most "undue weight" questions have been winding up at WP:FTN, and question of neutrality violated through original research go to WP:NORN. Methinks this is overkill. Moreschi 17:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I can see sound reasons. WP:RSN is primarily about questions of the form "Is X a reliable source for claim Y" (with lots of additional details...) WP:NPOV/N ought to be about questions of the form: "does this article fairly represent the balance of all available reliable sources" or "given the existing article, how should it be changed now that we've found these new reliable sources". Different questions, requiring different skill sets and attitudes to answer. WP:NPOV/N may well require an editor to devote a couple weeks to research before replying, if they want to do a good job of replying. My question is whether we have a sufficiently large set of editors who are willing to devote a couple weeks to researching topics they aren't that personally interested in, or whether we'll get drive by POV editors who just use it as another forum to argue for their POV. GRBerry 18:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Probably both; drive by and committed will happen. However, more eyes always, always in the end seem to cause problems to dry up, since the people in the wrong can no longer hide their POV gaming out of relative sight after a while. It will take a while to balance out, I'm sure. Lawrence § t/e 06:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
So far the board has attracted a report that should have gone to WP:BLPN, in addition to the editors that are currently at war on Talk:Homeopathy. I'm not going to nominate the board for deletion just yet, but I'm not sure this is a good idea. Also, we can't make binding content decisions, so this is somewhat different to the other noticeboards. Addhoc (talk) 20:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

CAT:CSD and templates[edit]

Can someone explain the sudden explosion of templates on CAT:CSD? - Revolving Bugbear 22:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: Given a random sampling of six of them, all of them were tagged by User:MZMcBride. I'm going to ask him. - Revolving Bugbear 23:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
They were tagged over a week ago. There's a seven day delay for unused templates. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware, but the fact that they all appeared today means they were all tagged 7 days ago. My question is, is there any particular reason for the blitz that I'm not seeing, or did you just decide to do some housecleaning? - Revolving Bugbear 23:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, MZMcBride has been doing that for awhile now. Being a template categorizer myself, it's very helpful work he's done. Lots of unused templates out there. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 11:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to imply anything nefarious or whatnot. I was more worried that I had missed some discussion that ended in a "zOMG template deletion time!" and would be thenceforth confused. - Revolving Bugbear 23:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
(ec)From a (different) random sampling, they all appear to have been tagged for 7 days, and orphaned, so appear to fit the speedy criteria. If someone wants to say "Go", I'll start at the bottom and work my way up... GBT/C 23:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Um - how did these automatically appear on CAT:CSD? I thought time-delayed stuff for categories was unreliable, that's why we have the dated subcategories for the image CSDs. —Random832 17:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

If you do recent-changes patrol, you should read this essay.[edit]

I've documented several very troubling cases of long-lasting vandalism that I've seen. My essay raises some uncomfortable questions about whether our efforts to fight vandalism are succeeding.

User:Shalom/Drafts and archives/The vandals are winning!

Shalom (HelloPeace) 03:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I enjoyed the essay, but I'd have to disagree, the vandals aren't winning. They may win some of the battles, but the war is ours! Useight (talk) 07:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Useight, great essay, but I think your point more is that even if we get 99.9% of the vandals, there is still those few cases that discredit Wikipedia, which I agree, and we need to strive for perfection. Thanks for the good read. « Gonzo fan2007 talkcontribs 07:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Sensationalist title, ever thought of writing for a tabloid? Can't say I've looked into levels of vandalism recently, but doesn't seem to present any information to demonstrate that vandalism rates or reversion rates are any worse than they were a year ago (say). IIRC after the Seigenthaler and the publicity from Jimbo's TV appearances we had a huge flood of vandalism over a few days, it soon slowed again. Really the vandals are winning if we all spend all our time in paranoia, biting new editors, being over aggressive to IP editors etc. Don't let the vandals win WP:RBI. Your advice also seems to lack one important idea, check the other contributions of the person you just reverted, I've seen plenty of cases where an RC patroller reverts 1 edit and moves on, leaving the other 20 in the contributors history unchecked. -- (talk) 07:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There are multiple layers of vandalism detection - if a vandal edit isn't reverted by RC patrol, it may well be reverted by someone who has that article on their watchlist. Several of the examples you cite would fall into this category (reverts of 14 hours, say) so they might not have lasted for long periods of time. Hut 8.5 07:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example I found over a year ago. This edit lasted 41 days until I caught it. And by following up on the user's other edits I caught this one which I daresay would otherwise still have been there today. And here's an example of incompletely corrected vandalism; most of this was corrected, a bit at a time, but one bit remained for 45 days until I caught it. You might want to include some of these in your essay. -- Zsero (talk) 07:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Zsero brings up an important step that may seem self-evident, but is often overlooked. If you do catch a piece of vandalism, on your watchlist or in RC, make sure you check the contributions of the vandal after you revert. I suspect that most people reading this might regard that as a "duh," but I run into a lot of vandals who were caught on their last edit, only to have the preceding six attacks go unseen. Dppowell (talk) 19:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Drawing a parallel between vandalism and terrorism is a little extreme, don't you think? --Stephen 09:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Among other things, I've found two substantial sections removed for a year and someone's vanity staying in for eighteen months. Also see User:Shii/Hoaxes. Graham87 14:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Trinity Christian Academy (Addison, Texas) and James Barnett[edit]

This article has a long history of being vandalized repeatedly by unregistered users and registered users alike. It seems that those who favor the school possibly the administration is in a constant attempt to remove any reference to James Barnett. What can be done? long term Semi-Protection seems to be in order.CholgatalK! 17:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Trinity Christian Academy (Addison, Texas) has been protected. Rudget. 21:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
In the future, you might consider going to WP:RFPP. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 03:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Akrotiri and Dhekelia[edit]

Akrotiri and Dhekelia Your help would be required on the mentioned page. After the agreement on the talk page to remove the presidents comments from the Dispute with cyprus section. Port has repeatedly re-added these comments (slightly re-harshed i might add). Can you please look into this matter. Thank you.Rockybiggs (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You are referring to a statement made by the previous president. This is a new president with a mandate to demilitarise the island. This should be mentioned in the article. -- (talk) 18:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

MfD Backlog[edit]

We have several discussions that have been waiting for closure for several days, which can be found here: Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Old_business. One is from the 16th and has been eligible for closure for over a week. Warning, it may take some reading as it's a combined nomination of several pages with a disagreement over the appropriateness of the same. I will gladly do everything except make the close decision (and I can't do the actual deletion) - ie. I'll tag talk pages of kept discussions, archive the discussions, etc. Thanks.--Doug.(talk contribs) 21:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear[edit]

Anyone from the BRITONS' England or Her Former Colonies might want to see to list of nicknames used in cricket, a list which is almost entirely unreferenced, looks as if it's derogatory in places, and confuses the Oxbridge "-ers" with a cricket-specific nickname (yes we know that the old duffers on TMS refer to Aggers and Johnners, but nobody else under the age of ninety does). Guy (Help!) 21:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice title header. Does its best to rope you in. :P Rudget. 21:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I have to say, Guy, even being the "rabid inclusionist" you've so grown to despise, I say send it to AFD. In fact I wouldn't blame you for deleting it outright (as unreferenced and unmaintainable, nothing to do with "notability"). Then again I'm from one of those intellectually backward colonies where nobody will be caught dead playing that sport ("CRICKET? You gotta know what a CRUMPET is to understand cricket..."), so I could be a little biased. — CharlotteWebb 21:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't despise inclusinists at all. I even nominated Badlydrawnjeff for sysop, way back. I get a bit wound up when people advocate keeping stuff despite lack of independent sources, but inclusionism is every bit as valid as my own hard-line deletionism and both have the same end goal: to make the encycloapedia better. And yes, I agree, this article makes it worse :-) As to crumpet, that can be interpreted one of two ways. Old Joak: "Mother always butters my crumpet". Only works with a public school accent, of course, but I can do one of those having attended the only school in the English speaking world to include a Pope among its alumni (also Stephen Hawking). Guy (Help!) 00:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Category:English popes really narrows it down, plus Stephen Hawking's accent isn't terribly difficult to imitate. E for Effort, Guy. — CharlotteWebb 01:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Promoting Terrorism - I mean Vandalism[edit]

I want to talk about this.

3 things:

  1. This page was linked to from encyclopedia dramatica, which I'm not allowed to link to, under the title Vandalize Every Equation, with detailed instructions therefore. That caused the page to be vandalised, and so it was locked. The vandalism then spread to any other page on wikipedia, and much of it is still there. (Trust me.) This has happened many times before and the result is always the same - the vandalism spills out into random places and stays there. I'm posting this here in the hope that you'll learn something this time, instead of your usual bureacratic fucktardery.
  2. Avraham believes that posting this deserves a 1 month block, as well as 2 pages of huge boxes.
  3. My ISP is like a proxy server, and if I vandalise wikipedia anymore, I will be banned from the internet.

They've gone and done it again. You have a lot of work to do; I suggest you get started. Have fun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) coped by MBisanz from AN unprotected —Preceding comment was added at 02:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Checking the described ED article, I see that you're is telling the truth; it is linked. However, it was linked many, many months ago, and the article has already been semi-protected due to vandalism, presumably from ED. If you want full protection, you can bring it up at WP:RFPP. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 02:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal at WT:RFA regarding RfB passing %[edit]

For those who don't watch WT:RFA or the CENT template, there is a proposal at WT:RFA to reduce the passing percentage of RfB's below 90%. If you have an interest, feel free to weigh in either way. Avruch T 03:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The passing threshold is 85%, not 90%. Dragons flight (talk) 03:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
When was it raised? Back when I was active on RfWhatever, the threshold was 80%. --Carnildo (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. Must be a common misperception, then. Avruch T 03:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
What is the "passing percentage" for this proposal, or do I even want to know... — CharlotteWebb 03:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/New World Translation[edit]

This arbitration case has been dismissed and the final decision is available at the link above. Based on discussion on the case page and the editing history of the article, it appears that the underlying dispute may have been resolved. If serious disputes recur, an application to reopen the case may be made on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. John Vandenberg (talk) 04:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


I protected the noticeboard due to the recent edits. « Gonzo fan2007 (talkcontribs) 06:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Advice requested[edit]

Still quite green as an admin, so I'm asking for advice... a user asked me about User:Ceauntay, which appeared to be some sort of test area for an article. Upon investigation, it turns out that an IP - and several different variations of the same user name, such as User:Ceauntay1, User:Ceauntay2, User:Ceauntay3, etc. - are using the pages to create some sort of fake fictional universe. (I can't find anything that indicates the characters or "films" have ever existed.) It seems to me that the pages should be deleted, but since it is in userspace I wanted to inquire first, Thanks in advance. --Ckatzchatspy 06:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Does this help? On the buttom of all pages "Jane Hoop Elementary by Rita Christensen" Maybe some sort of a school project. But what should we do user pages are not really for this sort of thing, but do we want to throw away kids? Igor Berger (talk) 06:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd recommend notifying the accounts in question that this is not a suitable use of Wikipedia per WP:NOT#WEBSPACE and give them a week or so to make local copies of their material before zapping it. --Chris (talk) 07:53, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Too bad that we do not have sandbox accounts for kids to learn. That would be great to raise new Wikipedians. We should set up restricted accounts that are protected from being index by search engines for kids to exepriment and learn about Wikipedia world. We would also get much less vandalism if we do something like that away from the main Wikipedia space. Igor Berger (talk) 08:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Ahh, Utopia. нмŵוτнτ 08:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Why not! Make a proposal. We can send all the indef blocks, socks, trolls, vandals, and the rest of the nice people there as well. They will all be behind a firewall screen no harm done..:) We can dub it The Wikipedia Colony. Igor Berger (talk) 08:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's be sure not to be WP:BITEy. Let them know they can play like this if they also contribute to the encyclopedia. That's my usual philosophy. Folks can use user space for almost any nonsense they want - as long as there are encyclopedia contributions mixed in as well. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:53, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


Be on the lookout. Socks of Spotteddogsdotorg (talk · contribs) have resumed after a long period of dormancy.

Recent socks including TOR nodes
Typical edits
  • [2] Changing local news anchor bios into attack bios.
  • [3] Nominating local news anchor bios for deletion - sometimes in conjunction with the first edit. Makes articles look like attack articles and then tags them with {{db-attack}} to trick admins into deleting them (he has succeeded several times).
  • [4] More recently resorting to lunatic rants.

Wknight94 (talk) 16:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Vicki Iseman[edit]

I've asked User:VirtualSteve, closer of the AfD, to undo his protection of this article. There was no edit warring, he simply seems to have decided that the pending deletion reviw of the article must go through before any more editing (even a redirect per WP:ONEEVENT) is performed. I believe this is an abuse of admin powers to win an argument and have asked him several times to undo, but he refuses. Would somebody please review. If someone agrees that protection really is necessary, I'll be very surprised but I'll accept it. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 14:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I see edit warring about the redirection in the history. Redirected by Doc, reverted by Buster, redirected again by you. Probably better if he hadn't reverted again and then protected; but there clearly was an edit war forming, so somebody needed to step in. Had he seen a consensus to redirect or merge; he'd have said so, so he believed he was locking it in the consensus version. Protection is appropriate; and the most I'd do myself is remove his protection and immediately reprotect. Since the net effect is the same... why waste the time? GRBerry 03:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

AfDs need merging[edit]

Over at WP:DELT, there are loads of AfDs all for "non-notable Dungeons & Dragons characters", that really want merging since they all impinge on the same point. I'm not sure how; could someone experienced oblige, maybe? Cheers! TreasuryTag talkcontribs 19:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

They were only listed there today, so should be closed (and possibly merged) when the AfD discussion ends (in about 5 days time) αlεxmullεr 19:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Surely they should be merged now to centralise discussion? I've often seen multi-article AfDs... TreasuryTag talkcontribs 19:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm seeing a number with different point (some in one supplement, others in multiple, some in books, others not). I'd rather have multiple AFDs, especially if they could be merging into different articles. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, sorry – I thought you meant merging the articles on completion of the AfD (if that's consensus). But yep, Ricky81682 makes a good point αlεxmullεr 00:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Resolved: stale

Lightwing1988 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) Because of his personal attacks towards one particular user, I think he deserves to be blocked indefinitely. Not just blocked, but banned. And don't say he has not edited since January, because he has edited under his IP address ( Please block the IP too. (talk) 22:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You're asking us to block for something done a year ago. Lighwing1988 has not edited since January. This report is stale. —Kurykh 22:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I said, DON'T SAY HE HAS NOT EDITED SINCE JANUARY! He has edited under his IP address too, you know (I listed the IP above)! (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
This may well be true, but the user he is said to have attacked hasn't edited for a year either. WEBURIEDOURSECRETSINTHEGARDEN aka john lennon 22:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

(EC)If it quacks like it duck, its probably a duck. Please remember to remain WP:CIVIL here. ;Tiptoety talk 22:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You're not letting Lightwing get away with those nasty comments, are you? (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Um, would you like to point out how he has done anything bad under his IP? Parent5446(Murder me for my actions) 22:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
This IP is apparently a banned user, Jc iindyysgvxc (talk · contribs). JuJube (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking the same thing, but decided not to post it since the IP might be assigned to somebody else now (they do shift every once in a while). Parent5446(Murder me for my actions) 22:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
As for bad things he did under his IP, he did, for example, this. (talk) 22:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
And you feel that warrants a ban? Tiptoety talk 22:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I see, I agree that some sort of short warning block is necessary if he continues this behavior. Parent5446(Murder me for my actions) 22:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
That edit is about three months old. Anything recent? JuJube (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow, I feel stupid that I did not see the date. Parent5446(Murder me for my actions) 23:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Plus, the attack (if I'm thinking right) was in March 2007... (edit conflicted seven times...) WEBURIEDOURSECRETSINTHEGARDEN aka john lennon 23:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Re "but he did it too!" - if he decided to jump off a cliff, would you, too? Two wrongs don't make a right. (But two rights make an airplane) Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 04:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Series of IPs harassing editors[edit]

This has been the second straight weekend but, I've noticed a string of IPs from various locations harrasing editors. Last weekend it was Jimbo Wales and User:Angela and now this weekend it is User:Webwarlock and User:Shadzar that are getting attacked by multiple IPs. This may be a large gang of editors, and looks more likely that it is not from one editor. Anyways, just to let more admins aware of the situation. I've protected the pages that were hit.--JForget 00:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Magical Edit Changes at Killian documents?[edit]

Can anyone explain how the ref to "Texas Air National Guard" can change to "Texas Army National Guard" and then back again without any edit indications in this series of supposedly consecutive diffs: [5], [6], [7], [8]? Not a big deal, but the Killian-related articles seem to draw more than their fair share of odd stuff. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I notice that you are still peddling WP:TRUTH there, displaying the same obsessive interest as before you were blocked. Hmmmm. Guy (Help!) 21:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
The only "Hmmmm..." here is why you decided to pop by to make a rather derogatory sounding non sequitur. The past 24 hrs I've dealt with dubious short lived IP's, dodged being apparently baited into 3RR, and made some contribs to discussions in Global Warming, Killian Documents (of course), George W. Bush military service controversy, Dan Rather and Universal health care. And the only thing I've been "obsessive" with has been WP:HONESTY and WP:VERIFY, which occasionally, I suppose, means peddling the "Truth".
All of which, though, has nothing to do with my posting here. Any thoughts on that sequence, or is it just one of those "nothing to see here, folks, just move along..." things? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 04:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Where is that ref? -- SEWilco (talk) 04:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of non sequiturs.... [9].
It has this to do with it: you were unblocked on the strict understanding of improved behaviour. Your behaviour is marginal at best, looking at recent comments on the talk page. And you're still advocating your novel synthesis of primary sources. Guy (Help!) 11:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Considering all the provocations, I think I can honestly say I have been keeping my cool rather nicely. Trying to keep politically sensitive Wikipedia articles from descending into things that more resemble transcripts from conservative radio shows is not exactly the most enjoyable of activities. Last Spring my only intention had been to update some discussion issues on the Killian related Talk pages I had participated in the prior Fall and then leave. That instead turned into a massive edit war with several apparent LGF puppets and apparently at least one hacker. When that was done, and I had an evident opportunity to make big changes to the articles unmolested, I didn't -- I was pretty fed up with the whole situation by then. This last bit of excessive scuffling came about my spotting a bit of nonsense inserted into an article and my merely trying to do the right thing in removing it. That brought out that the articles are now "owned" again, and any and all efforts to deal with even blatant issues like un-cited POV nonsense with dangling "Citation Missing" tags left for ages is met with massive resistance.
And in regards to your novel synthesis of primary sources claim -- for the sake of a "clarifying" discussion on a Talk page, I made use of the provision of WP:PSTS that allows for citing primary sources when "they only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge," and "make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." If you are citing, say, a picture of a Zebra, it's not exactly synthesis to say it's a picture of a Zebra unless you want to claim that even this sort of thing is not "easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge".
Does this cover the situation accurately? But again this has nothing to do with why I'm posting here -BC aka Callmebc (talk)
Seriously, can anybody explain that magic-seeming edit and re-edit sequence? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Although both "Texas Air National Guard" and "Texas Army National Guard" are mentioned in the article, I see no changes to them, magic or otherwise. Can you please be really specific about what you're seeing? Bovlb (talk) 07:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some sort of red highlighting when it gets changed from one to the other? I have more specifics below. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 14:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
There are two instances of the string "Texas Army National Guard" and five of the string "Texas Air National Guard" in all five versions of the article; and they appear in the same places in each. "Texas Air National Guard" appears in the diff table of two of the diffs, and "Texas Army National Guard" appears in the diff table of the other two diffs, but this is because different paragraphs of the article are being shown. Both of the paragraphs in question are present in all versions of the article. —Random832 07:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I thought when you make small edits, the changes appear in red. For example, the very next edit in the sequence shows SEWilco changing the text in question again, this time from "Texas Air National Guard" to "Air National Guard" and you quite clearly see the change. But in the immediate prior sequence I had listed, [10], [11], [12], [13], the text simply changes from Texas Air National Guard to Texas Army National Guard and then back again with no highlighting to point out the changes.
Again I don't consider this a big issue, but I am kind of curious.... -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 14:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
It looks like you're just quoting the same diffs again. Please indicate which of the various uses of the two terms you see changing in which direction in each diff. Thanks, Bovlb (talk) 16:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Grrrr...I think a very big Whoops! and apology is in order here -- it now looks to be only a very dumb screw-up on my part because I was advancing through the edits and thought I was looking at the same area of the article when it was actually bouncing from one paragraph to another with similar terms in somewhat similar positions:

The text I was looking at is in the very first paragraph of the article where it goes (currently), "The Killian documents controversy (also called Memogate, Rathergate or Rathergate[1]) involved six documents critical of President George W. Bush's service in the Air National Guard." The bit that's currently called the "Air National Guard" is what I was noting.

1) In the 1st diff of the sequence, you see that IP makes a vandal entry, and that Bush's service is listed as being in the Texas Air National Guard.

2) In the 2nd diff of the sequence, you see IP's "contribution" being reverted by SEWilco and then another change being made by IP If you look at what at first glance appears to be a change to "Texas Army National Guard (TexARNG)" in the first paragraph is in fact another paragraph further in.

3) In my 3rd diff of the sequence, you see Otter Smith reverting IP Again you're still seeing a paragraph further in.

4) In my 4th diff of the sequence, you are now back to the first paragraph with an edit by Jc-S0CO, where Texas Air National Guard now "reappears".

5) Of course it doesn't help that in the 5th diff of the sequence, SEWilco actually does change the wording of the service to Air National Guard.

6) And what really didn't help my distracted thinking was that Bush's Guard service had been wrongly listed as United States National Guard for a long while until I pointed it out a short time back.

Still, though, in any case, my bad -- I thought it was just some minor matter so I didn't pay nearly enough attention to what I was looking at in the sequence, and I very much apologize for bringing it up here and wasting people's time. If it helps any, I will likely not hear the end of this little kerfuffle anytime soon (seriously -- I can almost hear some lips smacking now....) -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

References that have gone south for the winter[edit]

Suppose I find in an article some alleged "fact statement" followed by a HTTP source, and try to read the source, and find the reference is not there.

What is the Wikiproper procedure in this situation?

- delete the now unsupported fact statement

- add a {{fact}} code

- delete the code for the source, AND add a {{fact}} code

- leave the article code alone and put a note on the talk page

- none of the above.

??????????? Wanderer57 (talk) 05:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a "date recovered" thing? If so, you might be able to Way-back Machine to it. --Haemo (talk) 05:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
You could try using on the URL to see if it can be recovered. If not, you probably need to find another source. bibliomaniac15 I see no changes 06:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I've never heard of Way-back Machine or till now.
The paricular case that prompted me to ask my question is (when last checked) ref 14 in Dana Ullman. Could someone take a look at this and suggest what might be done?
My question is broader than a specific example; I have run into the problem quite often even though I don't edit a lot. Is the issue of vanishing references a big problem for Wikipedia? I'm curious because I have never seen a discussion of the problem. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

{{dead link}} --NE2 06:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

When I insert {{dead link}} and look at a preview, link 14 has become link 9. I'm sure there's a perfectly logical explanation for that, but I have no idea what it is. Can you explain? Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 07:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Are you editing the whole article, or just one section? -- Zsero (talk) 07:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. That was it. Now I know why you guys/gals get the big bucks. Wanderer57 (talk) 07:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Many such links were to online versions of print news sources. Those can be cited without a convenience link if they're no longer online. Cool Hand Luke 07:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

So then links to online newspaper stories that are expired after X number of years must be a huge issue? Where might I find this discussed? Wanderer57 (talk) 07:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
It comes up periodically on the talk pages of policies like WP:V. Here's the last time I saw it referenced, in a different question. Basically, newspaper citations are verifiable even if they're pre-internet and have no possible link, so it's not particularly problematic when the link dies. Internet sources, on the other hand, might be lost if they're not on the wayback machine. Cool Hand Luke 09:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Citing sources #What to do when a reference link "goes dead". Graham87 10:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Why is the Incidents page protected? MarioPartyBitch (talk) 10:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Silly vandalism. Pretty constant at this rate, which is extremely annoying. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

User:The Undertow[edit]

As you may or may not know, The undertow has decided to leave wikipedia. He has deleted and protected his page, however, I've restored the the undertow's talkpage, added a courtesy blanking, and reprotected the page. I have done this on the basis of previous precedents that the userpage can be deleted, but the usertalk page can be accessed. The reason for my posting is I wanted to make sure that may reasoning of this is correct, and that I have done the correct thing. Thank you in advance for your input. Icestorm815Talk 20:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, am sad to hear this. He was one of the good guys. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 20:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is very sad to see him go *tear*, he will be missed. And Icestorm, I agree that it is good practice to leave and blank the talkpage for obvious communication reasons. Tiptoety talk 22:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
It appears one of the reasons behind him leaving was that his private e-mail address was posted on his talk page. Correct? If so, maybe he deleted it on purpose. Selected deletion may be in order at the very least. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, was not aware of the circumstances, maybe that archive page (if it is an archive page) can be deleted. Or maybe it should be oversighted. Tiptoety talk 22:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I just saw what you saw - that he left it undeleted in an archive page. It looks like quite a few revisions of more than one page would need to be oversighted to get rid of them. I guess let him complain if he wants to re-delete. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
He specifically said that he was not requesting oversight because he thought it would be pointless. Avruch T 22:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Whatever. His call I guess. (I didn't read through the whole discussion - just enough to get a general gist). —Wknight94 (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
No! Not The Undertow! It seems a lot of editors have gotten pretty frazzled lately. Useight (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Good Lord. This is very unfortunate. bibliomaniac15 I see no changes 22:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
No Biblio. It's fortunate [14] The guy grew to hate it here. Best we all move on, for The_Undertow and WP. Pedro :  Chat  23:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


This IP editor continues to make a few good edits and a lot of bad edits, often reverting someone's edit and reverting his own reversion without an edit summary. He's now removing {{DynamicIP}} from other IP talk pages he's used. --NE2 03:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried talking with this user about their edits, either about the highway content edits or about the removal of the AT&T Internet Services tags? I would suggest you walk down that road first. If you think someone is making bad edits, you should consider taking the first exit at the article talk page(s) or the second exit at the user talk pages, instead of continuing on and taking the exit to WP:AN. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 04:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I have many times; he deletes talk page entries and never replies. --NE2 04:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
RFC created at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/75.47.x.x. Evil saltine (talk) 06:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Long term abuse, need assistance[edit]

For over the past year, there has been an editor who is a Bell Canada user who has been intermittently vandalizing any and all articles relating in some way to Haim Saban. This ranges from posting this slant or whitewashing mentions of Saban's productions from articles. Supposedly, this was dealt with. However, this individual has hopped ranges on his ISP, leading to rangeblocks to prevent abuse and leading to various e-mails by innocent anonymous users.

Abuse reports have been ineffective. Range blocks cannot continue to be used. Discussion with the IP proves fruitless (I would provide an instance where I had been trying to communicate, but I was met with the same disdain and edits to my own comments). It is pointless to continue to block these ranges and the IPs that this individual uses. I need a better solution.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I found a sample edit of a human-to-human interaction with this individual.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Announce protection for articles relating in some way to Haim Saban and after a week or a month protect the article. Edits can be made by admins only.Momento (talk) 10:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Protections have occurred. Haim Saban, Shuki Levy, and Saban Entertainment have been semiprotected for nearly a year. It is not feasible to protect every page that features Saban Entertainment or Power Rangers on it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC) (talk · contribs · WHOIS) came back as soon as I unblocked another range. I need to prevent this in other ways.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

And longer-term anon-only rangeblocks won't help? -- Avi (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Because there will be more and more ranges to be blocked. These are anon-only, because he has also created an account on one occasion to continue his abuse.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Too bad. There are only 1024 addresses covered by Sympatico HSE SYMF20070109-CA, but you're saying he has the run of all 524,288 in BELLCANADA-16? -- Avi (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Find/create a category that relates to them all, then add it to VoABot II's watchlist, and it'll be more attentive to changes made to any page within that category. Beware, though, as there's a limit of three active watch categories. --slakrtalk / 03:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
He went from yesterday to today, and in 64.231 something last year before the abuse report. It is difficult to keep this guy in check, and Bell Canada/Sympatico have not been helpful.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
We only have to block around 270M IP's to cover that, piece of cake! Smiley green alien sick.svg -- Avi (talk) 03:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


My user page was recently deleted and violated by Ryulong. I was already informed that my editions on my user page were allowed because I was only keeping them on a temporary basis. I am asking that you please put my user page back the way it was before it was vandalized. — NuclearVacuum 14:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

He as also deleted every image I have added. Please also return my images to the way it was. — NuclearVacuum 14:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
(EC) From a quick look back through the deleted edits, it appears that you were using your userpage for long tracts about the made-up "United People's Darughas of Antarctica", as well as other fictional countries. Given that the information had been there for months (not a temporary basis), that you don't own your userpage, and given also that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a permanent free webhost, I don't see a particular problem with the deletion. I definitely don't see it as either violation or vandalising. GBT/C 14:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The deletion of the userpage material is probably within policy but if you dispute the delection, you can raise the matter for a deletion review. Or, if you need a copy of the deleted content to post it somewhere off Wikipedia, let us know and it can be e-mailed to you. (Admins should let users know this when deleting large chunks of userspace content, and should generally give a warning first.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
There are many other wiki sites with less strict focus than wikipedia, for a few see Comparison of wiki farms. I'm sure one of those could be suitable for your content. Like Newyorkbrad says, we'd be happy to give you access to the content so you can put it on another site. henriktalk 14:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
NuclearVacuum's actions were brought up on these pages before. He has not been using his user page to hold this content for a temporary basis. He appears to only be here to host this content in a free place. If he wants to use a MediaWiki format, then there are other places that he can put this information. If he wants the raw code, it can be provided, but it serves Wikipedia no purpose to have it up on his page since November.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I am now aware of how to make a "wiki" page for my work. But for informational purposes, can you please put my userpage back the way it was and allow me to delete it in my own way. This is so I can take the HTML (witch I do not have backed up on my hard drive) and put it exactly the way it looked, but on a different web site. This is also because Ryulong (along with deleting my day dreams) also deleted my other projects I was using to add to Wikipedia articles. Like the "Slavic languages" box to show its history, I was using it so it would be something like the Germanic languages' box. He also deleted my many other projects, as well as ALL my userboxes. All I ask is that you restore my user page to its former status so I may clean it up my way (following all the guide lines of Wikipedia). — NuclearVacuum 22:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Blanking sourced content[edit]

I am experiencing problems with User:Mareklug on Diplomatic reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence article who keeps on removing content he dislikes, despite them being well sourced, without supplying new sources to justify these edits. He also got involved in personal attacks at me which caused other editors to warn him of WP:NPA policy (he for an example accused me of falsifying quotes on Cuba so I asked him to point at such falsification which he obviously couldn't do). To put it short the article is about diplomatic reaction to the recently declared independence of Kosovo. Suggested title "recognition of Kosovo..." was not adopted therefore we include all international reactions. Countries that do not recognize Kosovo have no obligation to publish an official document as they consider the situation legally unchanged (therefore their positions can be clarified through statements of high officials as there is no legal need to formalize this decision through parliament unlike countries that recognize and that must do this through the prescribed procedure).

I am afraid he is going for a 3RR, so that his edits could not be undone and that he is counting on lengthy dispute resolution process during which he will push for his unsourced edits. As he is not a simple vandal who makes the most obvious blanking but removing sections with sourced information which is vandalism per definition (Blanking - Removing all or significant parts of pages' content without any reason, or replacing entire pages with nonsense. Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary.) he could indeed succeed in this bypassing of rules.

I hope you can help us protect the article from such destructive behaviour. --Avala (talk) 15:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

He has just reverted the article with "That was your 3rd revert. You're done!". Previously he called me "Mr. Serb Wikipedia Administrator" and wrote some insults in caps. The only reason I am putting this here and not in dispute resolution is the fact that this article is currently active, on-going and cannot wait for the process to finish. It's not a dispute over some historical fact so that article can be locked until it's resolved. --Avala (talk) 15:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the article (please don't complain about the version I protected, see Meta:The Wrong Version) and hopefully you can reach a consensus on how to proceed with the article. Maxim(talk) 15:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I doubt that there will be consensus. I am also afraid of sockpuppets - we have 2-3 users who registered just to spam the talk page. Block for the ongoing process article will also make the article itself suffer from any news getting added. So I have doubts over this being resolved so easily but I do hope it will happen. --Avala (talk) 16:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Mareklug deleted some of Avala's edits because the references were not relevant or reliable. So he had good reason to delete them. Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I did not even know I was being denounced here, until a friendly stranger left me a head's up on my talk page. Wouldn't simple courtesy require notifying me, that a complaint is being made re: my person and edits, so I could defend my reputation and those edits? :) To wit:
  • I did not accuse Avala of misquoting the ranting Fidel Castro; this is a straw man, and I ignored his thread in this matter, which he now makes into my accusing him and failing to back it up.
  • I did accuse him of misquoting the Foreign Minister of Armenia, as well as of misquoting me (he wrote on the article's talk page, that I called him "Mr. Serb").
The FM of Armenia was quoted by Avala in the article text as having said: "bla bla bla", whereas what he really said was: "bla bla bla yet. The matter is being discussed, and an official decision is forthcoming." Avala used this doctored, misquoted reference as evidence, to portray Armenia as having officially rejected the declaration of independence of Kosovo! He did so also on the requisite maps (Image:Kosovo_relations.svg and Image:Kosovo_relations.png), coloring hte country there red, and not once, but a number of times, finally desisting on this particular score, while introducing other "nonlinearities" :).
For the rest of how Avala edits, and other editors' reactions to same, please examine the article talk page (long!), the article's revison history page, as well as the edit war on Commons over the abovementioned maps, also sustained with Avala's participation, and which caused week-long page protection lock-ups there, as well.
I think this will suffice as evidence.
If I may have the benefit of commenting: An admin edit-warring, and causing page protections on two projects in the course of collaborating with others on one new subject? Oh my. I think, this certainly calls for drawing attention to his being an Admin on the Serb Wikipedia. Hardly a personal attack, it is an indictment of questionable admin oversight on that Wikimedia project. And, far be it for me to claim sock-puppetry (I hope, that his is not an insinuation leveled at me, because it is baseless; I am and always will be one Mareklug), but the two "other editors to warn [me] of WP:NPA policy" (strictly speaking, only one mentioned "personal attacks") -- are gentlemen introducing skewed Serbian POV to the otherwise impartial many-editor presentation of material in this article. They are User:Top Gun, and User:Tocino. I suggest that they bear biased witness. One of them accused me of waging a jihad -- his word -- on behalf of the Kosovo Albanians; I have never met a Kosovar and wouldn't recognize a word of Albanian. :)
And so I suggest that interested administrators peruse the complete record, as well as complaints lodged uninwited, among others, on my own talk page, made by apparently frustrated editors, objecting to the poor quality of edits by Avala.
If possible, I would like to request an RFC on Avala's edits in the matter of Kosovo, as I find them disruptive, and his defense of them, intimidating and inappropriate. I am not the only one, to judge from the talk page content and edit summaries.
Furthermore, I object vehemently at Avala's use of wikilingo and wikiwarnings to justify his own POV edits and discourage the correction of these edits by others, including me. By making accusations of blanking and vandalism, whenever his shoddy edits are removed or recast, especially, when falsely sourced (as in the case of Armenia or Cuba (where no official stance exists, because apparently, Cuba has no official position yet), Avala is scaring away people who disagree with him on the merits. That's intimidation, and it is totally uncalled for. If anything here needs protection "from destructive behavior", it is the impartiality of Kosovo articles subjected to Avala's editing, and the typical friendly atmosphere of editing collaboratively, even if coming from divergent viewpoints.
In the matter of removing the Fidel Castro-rant at Javier Solana, which was used to buttress portraying the official state position of Cuba, I wasn't the editor who removed it, yet again, prior to the latest series of Avala reverts, that triggered page protection. There was lodged vehement disagreement from other editors in this matter, also evidenced by section "Cuba" on the talk page, which, distressingly, mirror several other sections-objections by variety of editors to Avala's edits on that page. Fair to say, I suggest there be a pattern. :) Cordially, --Mareklug talk 19:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

May I quote you? "Stop misquoting and introducing POV!" directed at me on Cuba discussion. And you called my sources (statements of high officials of Cuba) not good enough. What is a good source then? And you called these statements "a rant" - now if you call Cuban statements a rant is that POV or my imagination? --Avala (talk) 21:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

We have a saying in America: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, surely it's a ...quack? :) I did call Fidel Castro's rant a rant, for rant it is. Did I call it a rant in the article space? No. So, prey tell, why are you hassling me? Did you misquote me? Yes. Did you misquote the Foreign Minister of Armenia (and use this to source bad edits on two projects)? Yes. Did I ask you to stop? Yes. Perhaps it is your imagination after all?... Hey, " there's no countries... and no religion, too..." :)
"Did I call it a rant in the article space? No." I agree you didn't, even worse - you removed it completely. --Avala (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
And User:Tocino restored it. And then, some third person, who objected persuasively on the talk page, removed it. And it was that way, gone, when I got to making my changes. And I made my whole lot of improvements, quite apart from Cuba's absence. They you 3RR'ed your way into page protection (of course, your reverts were re-incorporating this Castro rant, as documentation for the purported official stance of Cuba, quite unencyclopedic of you, that). Your point? Something about blanking? Why are you dragging me through the coals here? Looks to me more and more like abuse of Wikipedia mechanism of noticeobard and harassment of editor who does not share your POV, Mr. Administrator Who Can't Administer Here. --Mareklug talk 00:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Tocino in main article space, on discussion page: "the Polish fascist Mareklug...."[edit]

Incidentally, the abovementioned User:Tocino, on whom you solely based your complaint above, as far as "other users" calling me on my alledged violations of WP:NPA (here [15]: The personal attacks by User:Mareklug towards User:Avala are out of order. Mareklug seems biased in favor of the Kosovo Albanian side and it feels like he is on a jihad against Serbia' as evidenced by his proposed title for this article which smacks of POV (the offending title: Recognition of the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence :)), just referred to me further down the same talk page thusly [16]: the Polish fascist Mareklug, who's unreasonable, fudges facts and has an agenda for all to see.
Ahem, since you are an administrator on the Serb Wikipedia, how long a ban do you suppose he would get for this ...on Serb Wikipedia? Considering especially, that nowhere have I stated that I am Polish, or a fascist :), (it hasn't come up :)) and, presumably, this violation of WP:NPA was sourced :) via some sort of cyberstalking, because even my Wikipedia user page does not state these characterizations of me :) -- and, I was not even conversing with User:Tocino -- this particular bit of wikipedistic ethnic clensing is a drive-by shooting. (I metaphorically call it an act of wikipedistic ethnic clensing, because, ever since rants on Usenet, an invocation of Hitler by anyone, or calling someone a Nazi or a fascist automatically ends the thread, so it is a terminating offense. :)) So, please, tell us, how long a ban?
Let's say, it's User:Tocino's only 2nd offense, albeit in 2 days (same talk page, day earlier, abusing another user and being called on it by yet another: [17]). Cordially, --Mareklug talk 23:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Reported a few days ago with this retrieved from the archive, but apparently no adminstrator action taken;

User has been permanently blocked [18] for repeatedly spamming the Transit article and a few other ones as well. Since his block, the transit article has had the same spam link inserted by IP editors five times[19][20][21][22][23] and also once[24] in the Airport article. The IPs are all in the range WHOIS says this range belongs to Qwest Communications Corporation in Denver. The spam is near identical and clearly still Transitguru, but I don't know what to do about a range of IP addresses. SpinningSpark 21:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

File a request at Wikipedia:Request for checkuser, listing the blocked account and all the IPs. It's straightforward and usually very quick. Darkspots (talk) 21:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Ask for the link to be listed on the spam blacklist. Corvus cornixtalk 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The IPs don't actually link to the site in the above diffs, however. Darkspots (talk) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, SpinningSpark submitted an RFCU, which came back confirmed that this is indeed a case of an indef-blocked user using IPs to evade their block. Alison said one thing that could be done was a softblock of a tight IP range including most of the IPs used to spam the article. Can an administrator look at this and say whether the volume of spamming makes this kind of block appropriate? Darkspots (talk) 00:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Since this report the article has been repeatedly spammed again [25][26]

Although this is not major league as spamming goes, it is persistent, getting more frequent and, I think, needs the message sent that we are not going to idly accept it. I therefore request;

  • Semi-protection of the Transit article
  • Soft block of as noted at the RFCU
  • Soft block of the range the spammer is using now. WHOIS resolves this range to the same ISP, so it is clearly the same to my mind, but will submit a new RFCU if required. SpinningSpark 19:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
    DAB page Transit semi-pp for now. Other action reserved. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 19:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
    Airport has not been edited for a while, but I have it watchlisted. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 19:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Seeking resolution or response[edit]

Resolved: Dealing with this at WP:SSP. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I have posted this incident report for the third time; it was archived twice previously with no comment or resolution. Perhaps it was overlooked or maybe there is something wrong with it? Either way, I'd truly appreciate some sort of feedback or resolution.

Thank you. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for you help!--Pgagnon999 (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem with Rschen7754[edit]

Resolved: User:AL2TB replaced the contents of his talk page with a notice that he was leaving Wikipedia. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Rschen7754 keeps reverting tags on my userpage with my SSP case with User:Artisol2345 (my cousin). Users at WP:USRD accused my cousin as actually being me, especially since my cousin went on Wikipedia under my computer over last summer. The result of my SSP case was that I was a meatpuppet of my cousin (and I admit it, too), and the users have no definite answers.

Now, Rschen7754 keeps readding the sockpuppet categories onto my user and talk page. Although anyone can edit my page (as with all user pages), I believe that this is my userspace and I think that I can remove those categories. Even if I do, they can still find the past discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Artisol2345. The evidence there may seem convincing, but please note that I have always said this and I will continue to do so if necessary: I am not a sockpuppet of Artisol2345. All I'm asking is to have Rschen7754 leave my userspace alone, just as he asked me to do the same at User:Rschen7754/Problems with Wikipedia. I've been trying to assume good faith throughout my edits in WP:USRD, and I have been doing so. But Rschen7754 stated that "he was in the right and I was in the wrong." This person has gotten on my nerves long enough. I want Rschen7754 to leave my userspace alone. What should be done? ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 21:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This is different than the user states. The RFCU was confirmed - therefore, the tags need to stay on. Furthermore, if you look at the diff, this is a straw man or distortion of my position - I was in the right in that particular instance. This user has been very disruptive during his editing career. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't see it from his contributions. So I edit like him sometimes. Big whoop. So the CU was confirmed. It's not like I had a choice. I know I did some silly moves too, especially during the SSP. Then you came and accused me again when the 75 IP came in. I don't see my cousin's edits being disruptive. In fact, I checked pretty much a long time ago from his contributions when you and my cousin were building up exit lists together. (He taught me how to create a list, too, as well as other forms of wiki-markup.) I don't see any of his edits being disruptive (except the RfD you told me about, I guess...) And also, this is also different from what Rschen7754 states. He's the only one who bothers to keep those tags on my page. No one else cares. In fact, NE2 recently removed them for me this morning. (Thanks, NE2!) Rschen7754 is the only one who bothers to reapply those stupid categories, and ultimately, he's not leaving my userpage alone. By the way, this is my editing hobby, not my career. And I wonder why Rschen7754 still thinks I'm being disruptive after my SSP case. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 22:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
You say that and then you pull one like this: [27] - WP:USRD/A and the WP:ASSESS standard say that a stub article "is usually very short, but can be of any length if the material is irrelevant or incomprehensible." Considering that SR 241 (CA) does not follow WP:CASH and is a mess, it must be a stub article. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
When I read the Wikipedia policies, I learned that a "stub" is no more than one short paragraph. California State Route 241 has plenty of paragraphs; we don't want to make it misleading for readers. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 22:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Good grief... there's two kinds of stubs - the type that WP:WSS uses and the type that WP:ASSESS uses. They are not interchangeable. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
So why don't we just create a category called "Messy-class" articles? ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 22:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Now Rschen7754 threatens me saying that he will fully protect my userpage if I remove the categories again. (diff) It gets to the point where Rschen7754 is becoming just simply irrational. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 22:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
AL2TB, I think you should provide counterevidence of why you are not a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of Artisol2345. The 75 IP is going crazy and believe it or not, based on IRC conversation, some people accused it to be you. I personally believe that you are not Artisol2345 or related to the 75 IP, but now it would be a good time to provide counterevidence so you won't get blocked again. PrestonH 22:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I wish I can provide counterevidence, but it looks like when my cousin introduced me to Wikipedia, he pretty much set me up for all this. Here's one: if you check Artisol2345's logs, you will find that he never owned an account at the Wikimedia commons, and that he does not know how to make an SVG image. The IP has a different style of editing compared to mine, as NE2 said so. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 22:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
AL2TB, you should probably be aware that "It was my brother/sister/aunt/cousin/whatever" is the standard defense against sockpuppet accusations. Sort of like "the dog ate my homework". Whether it is the truth or not, the nature of the defense tends to automatically raise people's suspicions. That said, it would probably cause the least amount of drama for you to just leave the categories on your talk page. To employ another cliché, "the truth will set you free" - just don't worry about it and after a while this situation will probably resolve itself. Revert-warring over it (no edit warring is justified, ever - that's why we have talk pages) will just make administrators testy. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 23:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried to do leave those categories alone, and I tried to usurp another username so hopefully there will be a higher chance that this case will go away. It was until when one user stated their concern about me that I have been abusing sockpuppets. And Scott5114, I provided a couple of counterevidence... might that convince you? ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 23:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
No - good faith and good quality contributions do. If you look at the user User:JohnnyAlbert10 - he was in a similar situation. But rather than fight it, he kept editing. He didn't initially have the skills, but he drastically improved and now he's accepted by Wikipedia editors today. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Protected the userpage after AL2TB and the 75 IP edit warred, removing the tags. Could I get input? --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll give you my input. 1) I haven't finished my infobox page, and 2) This protection is just plain stupid. After all Rschen7754, you're the one who cares about applying those stupid sockpuppet categories; no one cares about this except you. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 23:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Rschen7754, I agree with your protection. Checkuser confirmed, cant say much more than that. AL2TB please change your sig and remove the big HTML markup. βcommand 23:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I might change my sig again in about three months or so. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 23:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
AL2TB, let me be a little blunter, your sig is distruptive, remove the <big></big> markup. βcommand 23:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist canvassing for AfD[edit]

Are these: [28], [29], [30], [31], [32] a violation of our canvassing policies? If no, please tell me. If they are, could an uninvolved admin address this? Jd2718 (talk) 03:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this pretty much the same as listing it at one of those deletion sorting lists? Ostap 03:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Alge Crumpler[edit]

Just looking for a bit of help here...earlier today there were reports that Alge Crumpler had signed with the Tennessee Titans. This evening, however, his agent denied those reports. I reverted the article to reflect that. Sometime later an anon replaced the Tennessee Titans bit; I reverted (but accidentally also reverted something he had added that I did not intend to) and notified him on his talk page; he replied understandingly. Later still a new account (User:Bart Hinson), apparently not aware of the new information, re-added that he had signed with Tennessee. Having had reverted twice and not wanting to give the impression of edit warring, rather than reverting again I explained the situation to him on his talk page and asked him to consider reverting himself. He appears to be ignoring that.

Naturally, this situation will clear itself up if/when Crumpler signs with *anyone*, but in the meantime when the player's agent specifically denies that he has signed with a team, I think it's pretty clear that the article should indicate that he is still a free agent. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 03:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I added a ref to the page from ESPN to try and clear it up. Since he hasn't officially signed, the Titans info could be officially removed until it's formally finished. Redrocket (talk) 04:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Next time, I'd add a hidden comment on the page. It won't stop the crazies, but it might make someone think for a second. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What to do...[edit]

User:Hpt lucky has been around for about a year and a half now and, from what I can see, looks to be a good-faith editor. The trouble is, s/he has a habit of creating inappropriate pages; not wildly inappropriate, but rather pages about subjects which just aren't that notable. When I first saw his/her talk page, I was shocked at the number of AfD, SD and NN warnings. But still the user creates these inappropriate pages. Something needs to be done, but what? Blocking seems harsh, since Hpt really does seem to be making a good-faith effort to contribute. But s/he has literally had dozens of articles deleted over the past year (and also apparently has a penchant for copying and pasting info from elsewhere on the web, i.e. blatant copyvio). I deliberately have not informed him/her of this discussion, as I don't want to seem WP:BITEY. While s/he's been around for a while, s/he evidently hasn't really learned the way things work around here, and might take this discussion the wrong way, and I don't want to chase off a well-meaning editor. faithless (speak) 11:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Well this is odd: just after posting this, I noticed that the user had blanked his/her talk page, and left a rather strange/uncivil message on my talk page. Nonetheless, opinions would be appreciated. FYI, there seems to be a language barrier with this user. faithless (speak) 11:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
With the best of intentions, I think you may have fallen foul of systemic bias. It goes to the question of notability; I have reviewed the topics and found that they are largely outside of western culture interests - but that does not make them non-notable to an international English speaking encyclopedia. I also reviewed the deleted contributions for the editor, and while there are many they certainly do not overwhelm those that remain on the encyclopedia. Not only are we dealing with an editor with some language difficulties, but also a likely different cultural perspective. Wikipedia should be able to accommodate the gamut of English speaking cultures (and those cultures where English is a second, business or academic language) and fairly represent that which is both notable and relevent to that range of interests. Of course, this can present difficulties to a majority familiar with only one set of values but it is still possible to accept that there other points of view and that allowing editors to contribute to the best of their ability within the general ethos of "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" should be supported. I think your approach of not contacting the editor and seeking advice here first was entirely appropriate, and it is unfortunate that the editor responded as they did (and to others). I am disinclined to think that any further purpose would be served by me or any other admin arriving on their talkpage and attempting to explain the western orientated culture of WP editing. Instead I think we should continue to AGF, and allow the creation of the articles in the hope and expectation that they will be further edited into even more valuable content. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. That does seem to be the best course of action. And while I definitely hear and appreciate what you're saying, I just want to note that I haven't deleted any of the page he's created. In fact, I haven't even given his contributions a thorough look-through to see if I agree with the deletions. But it definitely could be a case of unintentional cultural bias all around in this situation. Unfortunate, but there you go. faithless (speak) 03:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I apologise for not making myself clear, I didn't mean to suggest that you had deleted content - I looked at the deleted contributions log for the editor; it gives an indication whether the community historically feels whether an editor creates a lot of poor articles. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression regarding your good faith interactions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

tag teaming or sockpuppetry[edit]

  • If you would care to look at the Michael Jackson or Thriller articles you will see that this user was using his account on 1 page and his ip address on the other, their were two of them (the same person) vandalising each page. You will also see that since then I have added an addition 6 sources to the 2 that were already there supporting my argument.
  • Infact its a triple sock puppet.


It seems to be 1 0r the other with someone posibbly using an ip adress as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realist2 (talkcontribs) 02:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

While I agree Kookoo Star and the IP are most likely the same person, I don't see the connection to MassassiUK... Please do not label other edits as "vandalism" without support and try to use the talk page... also, you have already been reported for a 3RR violation. Sasquatch t|c 07:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Question[edit]

Would it be a copyvio to take text from Wikipedia Italian, have it translated to English, and include it in an article in English Wikipedia?

(and supp question - if this was done, should the Italian Wikipedia be cited as the information source?)

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Since both Italian Wikipedia and English Wikipedia are under the GFDL, it's fine to translate from one to the other subject to proper attribution. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Translation has additional details. — Athaenara 15:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This page protected[edit]

Resolved: Left, no forwarding address

Against trolling. Once they get bored, could someone unprotect? Thanks. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 03:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It's been a bit, I have unprotected. Keegantalk 05:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
With nine IP vandalisms in the past twelve hours, I re-semi-protected this page. Please feel free to dial it down if you feel I was overly enthusiastic. --Kralizec! (talk) 20:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Backup page brought online. MBisanz talk 20:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

LBHS Cheerleader[edit]

We need to ban User:LBHS Cheerleader, she has been making a lot sockpuppet accounts and has been vandalizing many articles. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 22:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

A little more context is usually a good idea. Currently tagged as sockpuppets are:
All are blocked. Most of the impacted pages have been semi-protected. I'm not sure if I see evidence of activity in the past few days; am I missing anything? At any rate, this an obviously problematic user and will probably be blocked on sight, but doesn't seem to need much in the way of community discussion -- only reporting in the event they return. – Luna Santin (talk) 01:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/LBHS Cheerleader for today's socks, though I'm sure I've blocked a few more. There is also Barnstargurl (talk · contribs) on the loose. There is something strange going on, I'm not quite sure who is being banned here. -- zzuuzz (talk) 02:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Go check out Wikipedia:Long term abuse. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 22:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Wonder if she is related to UCF Cheerleader (talk · contribs), though I realize it's too old to be provable, or to matter much. — CharlotteWebb 02:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It can be verified by a checkuser. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Not from so far back it can't. It will be declined as stale most likely. Woody (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
What else is new. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I just caught another possible sockpuppet vandalising List of cheerleading stunts. The IP sock is

Seeking community sanction on Ronnotel (talk · contribs)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Any further discussion should be addressed to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Seeking_community_sanction_on_DemolitionMan.LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

After working with Ronnotel (talk · contribs) for approximately six months to reduce his disruptiveness, I am bringing this matter here for consideration of a community sanction. In short, Ronnotel has been consistently disruptive at Indian Rebellion of 1857, maintaining a pro-British/anti-Indian POV by exclusively sanctioning those who adhere to a NPOV. Of particular concern is that he seems to view the matter largely in a religious context by calling users pro-Hindu.

Ronnotel (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is placed under a editing restriction for 6 months on all Desi-related articles.

I would appreciate community input on this proposal. DemolitionMan (talk) 14:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I Suggest you take this to WP:RFC first. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 14:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
He's already done that. Ronnotel (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, please note that I have already apologized for mis-identifying Demo's bias as pro-Hindu when I should have used pro-Indian. Ronnotel (talk) 14:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Given the outcome of that RFC, this thread looks particularly pointy to me but I will defer to a third party with more experience of this obviously long-term dispute. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 14:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The is about as pointy as can be found; DemolitionMan is using exactly the same language as in the section a couple above to continue a content/editing dispute. Any discussion regarding Ronnotel's actions can be made there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
    A minor clarification, I think the record s