Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive157

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Noticeboard archives


Tory Mason[edit]

Perhaps there is a revision of this article that should be deleted, the porn actor's real name was at one point revealed and immediatelly removed (and using that name one could get google results even with details like his high school.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) *** 14:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done. –xeno (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick request[edit]


Could an administrator please delete For a New Liberty so that I can reverse the redirect? I tagged it for speedy two and a half hours ago and haven't got the time to wait around any longer. Spasibo, Skomorokh 15:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done, though in the future I suggest you use the first parameter of {{db-move}} to make it easier to tell what you want done. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 15:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the swift attention, but I'm afraid Twinkle doesn't support the parameter you suggest. Sincerely, Skomorokh 16:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Then ::GASP:: do it without Twinkle. Beam 16:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Constructive as always, Beamathan. Skomorokh 17:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Beam, do you know User:Smith Jones? Corvus cornixtalk 23:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Malcolm Schosha[edit]

Resolved: Individual has been asked by email to contact the original blocking admin

User:Malcolm Schosha/User:Kwork, who left six weeks ago through right to vanish, has emailed me asking "what would be involved in unblocking either" of those two accounts. Hence, I'm putting it up for review here. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can figure out, he was Kwork (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · sockssuspected), but then was indef'd for disruption, and came back as Malcolm Schosha (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks). So I gather if he can address the reasons for his original blocking to the satisfaction of the community or the original blocking admin, he might be able to be unblocked on the Kwork account. –xeno (talk) 17:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Who requested that? I thought he vanished... Beam 17:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"The "right to vanish" is not a "right to a fresh start" under a new identity. Vanishing means that the individual, not the account, is vanishing. There is no coming back for that individual." from Wikipedia:Right to vanish#What vanishing is not. There is no right to vanish involved here at all, and mentioning it or suggesting there is is just raising confusion. Since jpgordon imposed the original indefinite block and scarian accurately blocked the new account for being a sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user, discussion should be with those admins. GRBerry 18:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Only brought up the RTV to give the whole context, to skirt confusion. I'll email the individual and tell him to take this up with User:jpgordon. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm on it; thanks. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Arabic Wikipedia[edit]


Hello, i need to remove protection from this article, Rodull, the admin, did so, in order to find a consensus (Take a look to the talk page) but it was not reached, also, apparently, he's afraid from puppets, i told him to protect it again later, after my edits. Regards. --Stayfi (talk) 19:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

  • The fact that no consensus has been reached is a reason to leave it protected, not to unprotect it.
  • Requests to unprotect pages should be directed to WP:RFPP.
  • As for your suggestion that it should be unprotected to allow you to make an edit, and then re-protected, please see WP:WRONG. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Or Template:editprotect. It is not inherently bad to want to have edits made to a protected page (although you are probably right that WP:WRONG applies in this case anyway...) --Jaysweet (talk) 19:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
We are talking of only a few days protection so far, and I do not see a consensus developing for Stayfi's edits. If that happens, fine. I consider unprotecting at this time premature. --Rodhullandemu 19:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Also, this same user has requested this same thing either here or on ANI as recently as yesterday, and evidently won't take no for an answer. I'd suggest he stop asking, it's getting disruptive. --barneca (talk) 19:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. As per this, I am marking as resolved and warning the user about filing spurious reports. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Woo, thanks, i'll try to post it, in the remove protection section.
Jaysweet, not all humans r the same, if u find one who understands u better, why not?

Barneca, move along, ignore me simply, regards --Stayfi (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Non-speedy delete[edit]

Resolved: article deleted.

Can someone kill this article, please? It doesn't belong in any CSD category, which is why I changed it to a PROD, but it shouldn't sit there for too much longer. Thanks. Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted as a poorly sourced attack/negatively toned article. The source was just an interview/opinion piece, definitely not reliable enough for this article. Kevin (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Thankyou. Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 23:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"Anvil Media Inc" and its advertising tactics[edit]

Resolved: Checkusers conducted and blocks issued, see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Anvil Media Inc. --Amalthea (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a heads up: Anvil Media Inc (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is a now-blocked role account of an advertising company. In their unblock request, they helpfully pointed me to this article describing how one should advertise one's company and boost site traffic, etc. by writing spam articles so that they resemble real Wikipedia articles as closely as possible. Several of their œuvres have already been speedied (not by me), and I think we should watch out for more articles of this type being posted in the next days by people following that article's advice.  Sandstein  21:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems this is already being discussed at Wikipedia:ANI#User:Anvil Media Inc.  Sandstein  22:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

RE: Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Mido z05[edit]

Resolved: Error corrected by ChrisTheDude. — Coren (talk) 12:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to see if I could get an admin to sort out a block I think was put on mistakenly on to the wrong user. With reference to the sockpuppetry report I opened above, Coren closed the report with this edit. I think given the wording they used, they put the wrong blocks on the wrong users.

The user I accused of being a puppeteer was indefblocked] for being either a sockpuppet or meatpuppet and the abusive account was only blocked for 24 hours. I checked the blcok logs and the blocks added matched the notices.

Given this arose from an AfD (which I've taken no part in just in case) and the creator has (I'm pretty sure) been mistakenly blocked, it's going to cause ill will that he cannot defend his article, regardless of how unlikely it is to survive the AfD.

I was wondering if a sysop could reverse the blocks so the puppet could be indefblocked and the puppeteer could have the original block now lifted since 24 hours have elapsed.

I did try contacting Coren (here) but given both the ANI going on and the tag on the top of his page he seems to have missed both mine and another user's message. BigHairRef | Talk 04:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur that a mistake was made, I have re-arranged the blocks accordingly -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
And so I have. My apologies. I agree that I had mistakenly reversed the puppet and master, and the fix was needed. — Coren (talk) 12:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Unauthorized bot needs blocking[edit]

Resolved: User has stopped automated posting of talk notices and the mainspace mess has been cleaned up. - Icewedge (talk) 05:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Can some one block User:Mr. Absurd, he seems to be running an unauthorized bot that is making a mess. - Icewedge (talk) 05:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the bot is posting notices having to do with wikiproject history on all the members talk pages. However it is messing up at random creating pages such as Merbabu:User talk:Merbabu. - Icewedge (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Wait, not sure if this needs any admin action now. The user has stopped the script and we are now discussing this on his talk page. - Icewedge (talk) 05:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Addressed, and discussion continues on the user's page. Thanks. Risker (talk) 05:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Topic ban[edit]

There has been a long dispute going on between two main accounts; Opiumjones 23 (talk · contribs) and BKLisenbee (talk · contribs). What I'll be doing now is to put an end to it and apply an indefinite topic ban. I am not suggesting since this has lasted more than 3 years with no resolution. That's enough. Please refer to User:FayssalF/JK for the full background.

Both users have been having the same dispute off-wiki. They both claim the originality of their respective sponsored bands; Master Musicians of Joujouka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Master Musicians of Jajouka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Note the similarities between the names. Other affected articles include:

and many other BLPs such as Cherie Nutting, Bachir Attar and Frank Rynne as well as articles about the bands' albums and CDs such as Brian Jones Presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka and Boujeloud.

All of these articles are related to the beat generation. Both Opiumjones 23 and BKLisenbee are strongly tied to many protagonists of the beat generation.

I don't believe putting those articles under probation would help because the COI part of the story is more than alarming. Opiumjones 23 edits his own article [no need to link to it] sharing the article editing history with BKLisenbee in a clear breach of COI and BLP policies. They had been reminded of everything, warned and even blocked once but nothing changed. Opiumjones 23 has more than enough used biased references (which attack other subjects) from non notable websites belonging to his friends. BKLisenbee has been removing them lately as well as spamish external links but edit warring in total breach of COI for years needs to stop. So I'd stick to a topic ban for both accounts unless someone would think otherwise and try to keep a permanent eye on those articles.

P.S. I've been receiving documents from both sides for more than a year claiming their story (copies of newspapers' articles, videos, links to articles, some respectful testemonies, music, festivals' announcements, etc...) My personal judgement is that they are not of the same weight in terms of credibility but since I have been acting as the admin in charge of this issue, I prefer to leave the content issue to someone else and therefore I welcome any admin or interested editor to verify them (by contacting me or one of the users) and give a third opinion while both users are topic banned. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Forgery of my signature[edit]

Resolved: Innocuous mistake. Now there's a word you don't get to use often enough. Innocuous.GBT/C 07:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm reporting a user has been forging signatures on Talk pages. This is a very serious offense and I wasn't quite sure where to report it. TheWikiArtifact (Talk Contributions) forged my signature including links to my user and talk pages here. The user whose talk page he left the note on justifiably thought I had written it, and wrote to me complaining about the unjustified reversion and warning. Please take the appropriate action against the nefarious forger. Thanks  ‑ MANdARAX XAЯAbИAM  (talk)  02:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite think it was really a case of the user purposefully forging your signature in a malicious way. What I think happened here is that TheWikiArtifact, who appears to be a newer user, wanted to warn the user, didn't know how, so he copied a warning that he found (in this case, one you placed). Metros (talk) 02:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Likely just an accident. New users frequently copy and paste warnings and forget to re-sign them. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it looks like an accident. I understand your gut instinct on this Mandarax, but if you think about it a second time you'll see what Metros and MZM are thinking. Beam 02:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. Yeah, that makes sense. When I got a note chastising me for doing something which I hadn't done, my first instinct was that someone was committing questionable acts and attempting to blame them on me. I'm glad to hear that instead it was probably an innocuous mistake.  ‑ MANdARAX XAЯAbИAM  (talk)  05:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Update. I may have been premature in declaring that the user's intentions were innocent. I left a very courteous note about the proper usage of signatures and warnings which TheWikiArtifact's other identity, WikiArtifact (Talk | Contributions), deleted with an extremely nasty edit summary and then proceeded to begin attacking me personally here and here.  ‑ MANdARAX XAЯAbИAM  (talk)  19:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Sigh, sorry for the frustration Mandarax. His behavior is unacceptable at this point, now that he's following you around and altering your posts. I've left a warning with a timestamp, and I'm watchlisting his talkpage. You've done nothing but assume good faith and show patience, and you've understandably had enough. If he makes one more post (he hasn't edited for over 3 hours that from this account), I'll block him to prevent the continued harassment. Please don't take it personally, some editors are just that spiteful. Continue adding/building our encyclopedia, and use my talkpage if this editor resurfaces to harass you and I miss it. Cheers, Keeper ǀ 76 19:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
He's already been blocked 24 or 31 hours (I forget) by Scarian (which I discovered when I went to go block him myself). --barneca (talk) 19:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, i got confused with which block log i was looking at. Scarian blocked indef for sockpuppetry; I don't know the details, but I can't argue with the result. --barneca (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry again, but it's confusing. There's User:WikiArtefact, and User:TheWikiArtefact. One's blocked for 24 hours, one indef. if i tell you which is which, I'll screw it up again, so go look for yourselves. --barneca (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
^#%$^#@% Last time. User:WikiArtifact, and User:TheWikiArtifact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barneca (talkcontribs)
Heh. Yeah, I got confused to, but for completely different levels of incompetence than Barneca's. My offer still stands though, Mandarax. If this user shows up again, in any form, with any username, let me (or someone competent like Enigmaman or Scarian) know, so we can take care of the issue for you. Keeper ǀ 76 20:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks everybody. I really appreciate it.  ‑ MANdARAX XAЯAbИAM  (talk)  21:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Cleaned up warnings he left signing as somebody else. -- Alexf42 21:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Strange activities on an Anon user talk page[edit]

The IP has a history of vandalism, I became aware of it after it vandalized a page on my watchlist. After issuing a warning (to go with its many warnings), I had it on my watchlist. Recently the associated talk page seems to be in the middle of a confusing series of edits: a number involve people who were previously listed as suspected alternate accounts (both Fred Woofy and MisterAlbert) before I got to the page; others were by anon users blanking the page; its all very suspicious because they're following each other in close proximity. I'm not sure what's going on here. Anyone have any idea --especially what should be done? --Bobak (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason for the page to be protected. The user may blank his talk page, deletion of messages is the wp equivalent of acknowledgment. Page should be unprotected and other issues investigated.--AdultSwim (talk) 14:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
For clarity, the blanking wasn't being done by the IP associated with the page. It may be likely that it's the same user with a new IP, but there is a difference. The warnings were months old, and I don't think it's a big deal if they remain or not...just wanted to point that out. --OnoremDil 15:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I've unprotected the page. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the information added by MisterAlbert as it seemed inappropriate. --AdultSwim (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation Code Expired[edit]

I registered for a new account today and when I received the email I clicked on the link to confirm and that link brought me to a page saying error this code is invalid or expired... —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Try having the password sent to you? John Reaves 18:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
You can still log in, but you might have to retry confirming your e-mail address. The confirmation isn't required for any accounts, but is useful if you forget your password. Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Mass speedy deletion of Fellows of the Royal Society[edit]

Sean Whitton (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been mass deleting articles on scientists (and then removing links to them), unfortunately I am not considered trustworthy enough to actually see what he has deleted. I do note however that they appear to be articles on Fellows of the Royal Society, and that Fellowship of the Royal Society is probably the best indicator of a British or Commonwealth scientist's notability. Please could some admins have a look and reconsider these deletions? I shall inform Sean of this thread. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 11:47, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I recently started articles for all living female Fellows of the Royal Society who did not already have pages. I believe I added about 60 new pages. Which seem to have all been deleted.Domminico (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

See here for a list of all living female fellows if this is helpful for restoration.Domminico (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Given that all the articles that I checked are of the form, for example, '"Patricia Clarke, FRS, is/was a distinguished British scientist", they are not establishing their notability. WP is not a directory of every Fellow of the Royal Society. --Stephen 12:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the FRS bit does establish notability (or at least it would if Wikipedia had any pretence to serious coverage of the sciences). DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely, it's true that all the articles were stubs, but they are exactly stubs that would be interesting if they were expanded. Except for Hon. Fellows (e.g. Margaret Thatcher) every FRS is a distinguished scientist who will have performed notable work. Obviously Wikipedia is not a directory for every fellow that's why the articles were stubs - my hope was that people would expand them. Domminico (talk) 12:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Notability for people can be established by a notable award. From a quick review, Jean Thomas (scientist) is notable, and the stub should have been expanded rather than deleted. I've restored the page and added a BBC reference, as well as asking Sean reconsider other pages deleted. . . dave souza, talk 12:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Fellowship of the Royal Society is a notable award. It's about as distinguished as you can get for a British or Commonwealth scientist bar winning a Nobel Prize/Fields medal.Domminico (talk) 12:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
It would help to establish notablity if a reference is given to each page, establishing award of the FRS. . . dave souza, talk 12:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough, for every page I added this page establishes FRS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domminico (talkcontribs) 12:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree that speedying the lot of them with no discussion was hasty. Shall we just undelete them all now? Consensus, folks? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd undelete them and add a maintenance tag, then if they've not been touched in a month review them. It's false to say that every single FRS is inherently notable - there is no such thing as inherently notable, especially when you consider our policies on WP:V and WP:RS, if there are no non-trivial documents about them then it doesn't matter what level of academic distinction they may have gained, but it's unlikely that any modern FRS will be so obscure as to lack any non-trivial independent sources. Guy (Help!) 15:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
No one said they were "inherently notable" they are notable _because_ they are FRS. It is this that qualifies them since they must satisfy at the very least 2 3 and 6 of guidelines to be considered for election in the first place. (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Er... what? FRS's being "inherently notable" means they're notable because of being FRS's. Please see "inherent" in Wictionary. And I agree that they shouldn't have been mass deleted. Please undelete right now, then we can discuss which if any of them should be deleted. It was hasty all right. Bishonen | talk 16:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC).
Being a fellow of the Royal Society does not mean there will be sources and independent analysis we can use. Notability in Wikipedia terms means that there are sufficient sources to work from. No sources, no article. Your statement makes no sense: you say they are not inherently notable, they are notable because they are FRS; that is, as I said, an assertion that an FRS is inherently notable. I dispute that. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Greetings. I would concur with JzG here: I can accept that the scientists may well have been notable (I can't comment either way because I don't know much about this area), but without sources for each one of them their articles then they don't meet Wikipedia's version of notability, which is, as said, sufficient sources to write an article from. —Sean Whitton / 16:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
They are pretty poor articles but they make an assertion of importance (being an FRS) so should not be speedy deleted. Any which cannot meet the notability guidelines can then be deleted by AFD. Davewild (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
When articles do not meet Wikipedia's standards, there are two ways of fixing them. One is to fix their deficiencies; a second is to leave them for someone else to fix. Deletion should only be used when the subject is non-notable -- not when the article is poor. And if one does not know much about an area, one is not in a good position to decide whether a subject is non-notable, so option two should be used. These articles should be undeleted so that someone who actually knows about the subjects can decide whether they are notable or not according to WP's standards. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Non-of my articles were good. They were close to as bad as it's possible for a WP article to be but nevertheless they were robust to AFD. They were stubs: all are good candidates for informative articles. I'm willing to bet no FRS will get through WP:AFD. If they come to AFD I'm quite sure they'll be improved and found robust. I disagree with Guy that FRS is not sufficient criterion for notability, read WP:Notability (academics).Domminico (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Of course they're inherently notable; they must satisfy at least one of the criteria in WP:PROF to be elected. Some will satisfy all six criteria. --Rodhullandemu 17:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Dave here. If you start discussing notability and sources it is most likely already not a speedy candidate. Speedy deletion is reserved for articles not asserting any importance and imo being a FRS does that. Whether individual admins think they are notable or not, they all deserve in doubt a discussion and all speedies need to be undone.--Tikiwont (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that some people need to go back and read the WP:PROF guideline and the WP:N guideline a bit more carefully. Notability is about the existence of adequate sourcing, and Wikipedia not being a directory. Of anything, including FRSs. If something is encyclopaedically notable, then there will be multiple non-trivial independent sources. If there aren't, then it isn't. Falling into class X, Y or Z does not make the case even if it is a strong or even universal indicator. Sources, that's what matters. And of course for most of these there will be plenty, so no problem. Guy (Help!) 18:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that some people need to go back and read the CSD policy. The point isn't about the notability guidelines but about the A7 criterion according to which the article has been deleted which is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability. Besides, I'd proceed as you say above, i.e. undelete, tag, and review which for me just means in case of doubt send to AfD. --Tikiwont (talk) 19:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Quite familiar with it, thanks. Foo is a member of bar is context-free and does not assert notability. Foo is a member of bar notable for frob is an assertion of notability. Now, as it happens, I would accept FRS as some kind of assertion of notability despite having read of some FRSs form the 17th and 18th century who are really quite obscure, but I can see how others might dispute that. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Whether or not these people are considered notable under our policies, the award certainly constitutes an assertion of notability, which is all an article needs to avoid being speedy deleted, as occurred here. -Chunky Rice (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm not an admin, but it seems to me there is a consensus for reinstating the articles at the very least for a few weeks with AFD tags. Can an admin do that?Domminico (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
As a practical matter, if Domminico is the person who created those articles in the first place, it would be better for him to restore a small number of them and begin work on adding sources to them himself, before restoring all 60. Otherwise he is just dumping a big bunch of work on his fellow editors. There is no point of a mass AfD on 60 articles which are nothing more than directory entries to begin with. EdJohnston (talk) 19:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I just restored 30:
Did I miss any?
--A. B. (talkcontribs) 23:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Spot-checking a few:
Note that Google Scholar is probably a better measure; nevertheless, if Royal Society Fellowship does not make them notable you're going to find out they all became notable in the course of doing whatever they did to get selected. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 23:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
These deletions should never have occurred.
It took me about a minute to do each of those searches -- isn't the deleting admin supposed to do a 30-second check of notability before deleting? I know I do. Also, I saw no notifications to Domminico, the author. That's not just a courtesy but it also gives feedback to the author, documents for non-admins that this person has a problem with article creations, and, in the event of an admin mistake, shortens the loop in fixing an erroneous deletion. Something else I do is look at the author's contribution log and talk page -- if I see several hundred good, positive edits, then I assume there's a greater chance the author is not making a mistake and I investigate more thoroughly before deleting. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 23:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing that requires the deleting admin to check the notability of the article. If the article does not assert notability then it can be deleted. If the article on bread just said "Bread is a food" (assuming the admin hadn't heard of bread and there wasn't an article history to revert to) it could be deleted under A7. The criteria does not specify whether or not the article is notable, only whether it asserts its subject's notability. Thus no google search is required although in cases I'm not sure of I tend to check anyway. James086Talk | Email 10:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
An assertion of notability does not need to mean an explicit sentence of the form "Foo is notable for...": it can be a statement about foo that prima facie indicates that foo is likely to be notable. "Fellow of the Royal Society" is a very clear assertion of notability of this type. If the deleting admin is too ignorant to know the implications of being a fellow, and too lazy to find out by doing a brief search, he shouldn't be deleting these kinds of articles. "Speedy" doesn't mean that the deleting admin should take as few seconds as possible to make the decision, it merely means we're avoiding a week-long decision. And by the way, your example betrays another fundamental misunderstanding of A7 deletion: bread is not a person, organization, or web content, and is therefore ineligible. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Indeed bread is an incorrect example, I should have chosen something like Einstein or Google. I happen to know of the Royal Society so I wouldn't have deleted them without investigating further but to call someone who doesn't know of the RS "ignorant" is a bit of a stretch; I would not expect everyone to be familiar with the various honours within academia. Wikipedia:Notability (academics) criteria 6 says that if they have received a notable honour (Fellowship would fall under this) then they are definitely notable. Also these articles are not covered by CSD G4 so they can be freely recreated without discussion. However I stand by my point that it is not the responsibility of the admin to do a 30 second check for notability, only to check for an assertion. James086Talk | Email 12:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Is it just my impression that we have people just blundering about deleting things they don't fully understand these days? When I was on WP:NPW long ago I'd at least Google if I was unsure. Have we really become that lazy these days? And what happened to WP:SOFIXIT? That I learned from working the Wikification project. --Rodhullandemu 23:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
The chance that the Royal Society would grant fellowship to someone who was not notable in the Wikipedia sense is approximately zero. (Granted, finding multiple reliable sources on a fellow whose main activity was before the Internet might require a visit to a *gasp* research library.) Also, as mentioned above, all those articles contained a claim to notability (fellow in the Royal Society) and had at least one reliable source (the list of fellows of the Royal Society) just a few mouse clicks away. As far as I know, "kill it before it grows" is not a Wikipedia policy. So I suggest restoring all those articles, and waiting for someone to flesh them out.. Cardamon (talk) 00:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Great Cheers I'll try and do some fleshing between writing up my thesis... Domminico (talk) 13:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can read here, it seems there is a strong consensus to undelete all ~60 articles, tag em, and AFD them if sources can't be found after a reasonable time to verify the asserted notability. Have all 60 been undeleted Domminico? I also very much agree with Guy here, we definitely need sources, going forward for these 60, perhaps numerous others, for the articles to remain for any length of time. I'm inclined towards a mild troutslap for the deleting admin for at the very least, not attempting to talk to the article's creator (would have been very easy seeing as they were all created by the same person, not 60 separate talkpage posts). AN could've and should've been avoided. Keeper ǀ 76 22:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Good deletions, giving people the possibility to feel good about starting an article from scratch by filling a redlink, which is more satisfying than expanding a mostly-worthless substub. Kusma (talk) 08:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • These should not have been deleted; they didn't meet the speedy criteria, because they had an assertion of notability. A mass AfD would have been more appropriate if the articles were thought to be useless. -- SCZenz (talk) 08:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
    • It was a good faith deletion of stub articles which lacked sources and were close to being content free, equally stubs aren't discouraged as such. Notifying the author and a mass AfD would have been better, in retrospect, but time constraints make that sort of clearing out difficult enough already. Domminico had a source asserting the notability of the list of names, and if that had been cited in each stub at the outset the stubs would have been referenced, rather than just asserting membeship of a society. From glancing at a couple of examples, that's still to be done. . . dave souza, talk 10:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I do assume good faith in this deletion. I however consider it a remarkable example of recklessness. At the very least anyone placing speedy tags should know the basic speedy deletion criteria, including that non-notable A7 means no indication of notability, not lack of references to prove notability, and that stubs are acceptable at Wikipedia. Furthermore, anyone even nominating for deletion should be aware of the applicable notability criteria, and this includes that for academics a very notable awards is sufficient evidence of notability. It is, I suppose possible, that the deletor was not aware of the meaning of FRS--but that's why we have an encyclopedia. The reason I consider this worthy of serious attention, is the actions of the admin above -- who actually removed the backlinks from the articles to Royal Society, and other notable awards. This is a clear indication that it was not just an oversight but either carelessness or lack of understanding. I am aware that he is a very experienced admin, and someone with a technical background, so i totally do not understand. Further, he choose to delete in a single motion of his own accord without anyone previously having placed a speedy tag in at least many of the cases--I have not checked all. This once more provides reason why, except for BLP and copyvio and outright vandalism, no admin should be permitted to have that power. I see two responses of his, the first to Domenico, to the effect that "I've ... speedily deleted all of your articles on scientists ... because there was no assertion as to why the scientists are sufficiently notable to warrant articles. I'm no expert in the field, but the articles really were too short to justify their notability so I decided to remove them from the encyclopedia" To delete -- let alone delete single handed, instead of just placing tags-- in an area one admits one does not understand, because the articles were "too short", and in the presence of the indications of notability provided by the backlinks, seems more than careless. It shows the failure to understand SCD A7, that there merely has to be an indication of importance, not a "sufficient" proof that the articles justify inclusion. I see his comment above that "without sources for each one of them their articles then they don't meet Wikipedia's version of notability, which is, as said, sufficient sources to write an article from" This shows the failure to understand deletion policy, that importance does not have to be proven to prevent speedy. At the very least it would seem appropriate to expect a full apology to the editor involved and a clearly stated recognition of what the speedy deletion criteria actually are. And in any case, it's time to remove the power for admins to delete single-handed except in the cases I mentioned above--it's too dangerous to the encyclopedia. DGG (talk) 02:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe I didn't see topic this before...deleting these articles was a bad move. Membership in the Royal Society is quite prestigious. An "elected member of the RS" is a de facto assertion of notability on par or greater than just about anything here. DGG is spot on that this is complete misuse, and misunderstanding, of WP:CSD#A7 which only requires a reasonable assertion of notability. {{stub}} tags, maintenance tags, and AfD nominations (if necessary) were the correct course of action. — Scientizzle 02:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm lost. Don't all of these meet WP:PROF #6 and therefor are notable? Why is there even a debate? Are we arguing that WP:PROF doesn't play a role here or are we arguing the membership doesn't meet number 6 or something else? It looks like an argument that WP:N trumps WP:PROF even though WP:PROF says otherwise. That seems a bit odd.... Hobit (talk) 03:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

There's been a lot of hand waving here to prove that membership in the Royal Society means notability. Does membership in the comparable national sciientific society of every country prove notability, or is the UK "special?" What would be the comparable U.S society affording automatic notability with membership. How about the Romanian Academy of Science when it was headed by Elena Ceauşescu [1], wife of the dictator? Should there be some forum for deciding which scientific societies afford automatic notability for their members, beyond indignant foot stomping when some members of one are speedily deleted (should have been AFD)? How about other politicized Soviet bloc scientific honorary organizatins? How about Third World national scientific bodies? Edison (talk) 22:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For the States, the United States National Academy of Sciences, and yes, elected members would be notable. Defunct soviet academies? Dunno - none of them have ever had the position or prestige of the Royal Society. Third World academies? Likewise. It's not a matter of the nationality of the academy, rather a matter of the academy's standing in the scientific world, and the requirements for membership. DuncanHill (talk) 22:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The aforesaid Mrs. Ceauşescu was elected an honorary member of the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) and, according to the Wikipedia article Elena Ceauşescu, "She allegedly obtained these awards with money, instead of merit." Maggie Thatcher was also elected a member of the Royal Society (not an "honorary member") as were Churchill, Disraeli, and Attlee. These politicians may be notable in that sphere, but their scientific prowess is doubtful. How many menmberships went to the merely wealthy? Are we to take these politicians and others as automatically notable scientists because they could put FRS after their names? The article on the Royal Society that before the 1820's the members were "gentlemen and amateurs." Would these have automatic notability enough for unquestioned stub Wikipedia articles? If there is any automatic presumption of being a notable scientist or mathematician due to RS membership, it would have to be restricted to very recent years. Edison (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Royal Society of Chemistry is not the Royal Society. Were Dizzy, Churchill or Attlee ever referred to as FRS? Of course, although not notable for their scientific achievements, they were elected as a result of their highly notable endeavours in other areas - so I do think that the fact of fellowship does indicate notability. Prior to the 1820s, science was largely an activity for gentleman amateurs - one can make a good case for Tom Huxley being the first "professional scientist". DuncanHill (talk) 23:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I also think you will find that Dizzy, Churchill, Attlee, and Thatcher were all elected as Fellows - (check on the Society's website) - Honorary Fellowship not having been invented then. DuncanHill (talk) 23:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Have just checked - they are all listed as "Fellows" (not honorary members) and their election is listed as being under the former Rule 12. DuncanHill (talk) 23:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Duncan. the Royal Society is among the most selective and recognizable academies, as is the US NAS. Other societes don't necessarily have the cache or international impact of these two. Those selected have gained substantial recognition within his/her respective field, therefore, in general, it is an argument of encyclopedic notability to meet WP:BIO/WP:PROF; it's certainly beyond CSD#A7 material. That said, if one of these bios is brought to AfD and there is no substantial sourced information available beyond election to the RS, I would view deletion as a potentially reasonable course of action. — Scientizzle 23:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Since my last post, I have created an article about a random name in the U.S. NAS membership list, Albert C. Smith. It is better referenced than the mass-created stubs of RS members, such as Cheryll Tickle, but I could find no clear proof the man would really be considered "notable" under WP:PROF. Not much in Google Books [2], and no biography at NAS. Is he automatically a "distinguished botanist" as Ms. Tickle is automatically "distinguished" by virtue of the membership?Edison (talk) 23:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Given that there is a journal Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society specifically devoted to providing exactly the sort of sources we need for our articles, it seems unlikely that any non-newly-elected now-dead FRS would lack sources. (I previously wrote non-newly-elected but I see from our own article on the journal that it actually publishes obituaries.) Regarding Albert C. Smith, I see no less than five claims of notability in a three-line stub (museum director, society chair, NAS, distinguished for a research specialty, and the "standard author abbreviation" about which I've seen arguments in other AfDs that it confers automatic notability). —David Eppstein (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The article Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society says that the obituaries are often written by students of the dead scientist, and that they often exaggerate his accomplishments. Thus they are of questionable independence and reliability, and are hardly objective. Edison (talk) 14:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
as there is for NAS. (in both cases, only for deceased members). [3] The one for A C Smith seems not available yet--but I'm going to check further. However, a list of 36 published works is available Worldcat at [4]. There may be more, as it does not include most journal articles. That's enough to indicate notability, as well as to write content about the subject field in which he did he did his research. And that's even without visiting a library. It is inconceivable that anyone would be a member of either society and not be notable. How far this extends to other academies is debatable, but w do tend to avoid national bias. (For the main Soviet academy the relevant group is the full members (academicians), not the candidate members, and I would be prepared to argue that those in the physical sciences and mathematics at least were all notable.) Further, for almost all national academies, the foreign members (however called) are even more noted than the regular members, for such an election is an exceptional honor. DGG (talk) 01:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Some of the refs are for a different Albert C. Smith (maybe a son or unrelated person who got a PhD in 1951?)[5]Edison (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
This sort of quibbling about whether there may be a few exceptional non-notable FRS's is appropriate for an AfD. It is not appropriate for a speedy deletion decision. If a statement in an article probably indicates notability, but may have some exceptions (and I am not convinced that the examples above really are exceptions to FRS indicating notability, as they are all notable people anyway) then the appropriate step is to take it to an AfD, not to speedy delete it. If you're not sure about some area, don't do speedy deletions in that area. For instance, I rarely handle a7 speedy deletion requests for bands, because I'm not sure I understand the distinction between major and minor label releases; similarly, it is no shame for the deleting admin to be ignorant of the implications of an FRS, but he should have used that ignorance as a reason to let someone else handle the decisions for these articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems clear that many who have been members of the Royal Society do not qualify as "distinguished scientists," including the politicians and the pre-1821 amateurs. Thus each article should cite references to show the person is notable as a scientist, rather than being a mirroring of the membership list. If the article creator does not have a few minutes to do a minimal search for references, such as DGG did above, he should not create the article, and an A7 speedy deletion of unreferenced articles seems appropriate. Edison (talk) 02:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)(in full pedant mode)
If you were really in full pedant mode, you might have noticed that A7 speedy criteria explicitly state that references are not needed, only an assertion of notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, David, of course, but Edison is right to the extent that those people who write bio articles without at least giving some indication to non specialists of where the importance lies are doing a sub-optimal job. This is particularly troublesome in copying over sparse entries from biographical dictionaries. I and you and the other people here who can do it try of course to fix at least to some extent every one of them we can catch, but I'm sure many are not spotted and get deleted, which is unfortunate both with respect to the work of the contributor and the coverage of the encyclopedia. I'll do the work as much as I can, but I wish I could concentrate on other things. When I do save such an article, I try to explain to the contributor how that should do it, but there are some who have actually told me they intend to contribute the barest possible article as a placeholder and leave others to fix them. I don't think that's fair, as the original contributor is usually in a good position to add at least something. What is an related problem is those who delete articles within a few minutes of making them, when the original contributor may have written just the name and dates, and intends in the next edit to do more. This can happen in any subject, and although an intrinsically reasonable method of editing, it does make it harder to screen.
Incidentally, Edison, I am quite prepared to argue that any of the early gentlemen-amateurs were notable in their own time as scientists/physicians/naturalists/whatever, and hey are generally included in biographical directories or histories giving enough information. Historians of science have worked rather intensively with this group of people who, in the absence of a formal educational system in science, contributed to the earliest stages of its formation. And I strongly doubt that anyone gets an honorary membership who isnt highly notable in some other field, such as --even--politics. DGG (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not so convinced that in the 1700s all who were elected had made any significant scientific contributions, regardless of the unavailability of a university program or degree in science. As mentioned above, some non-scientists Prime Ministers were elected in the 20th century. It seems like hand-waving to assert that they must have been notable for something. The claim was made that membership proves the member is a distinguished scientist. That is what was written in the stub bios. That non-specific inherited assumption of notability is claimed to be proof against A7, but it would not be accepted if someone merely wrote "Joe Smoe is a distinguished artist" without noting awards, exhibitions, mention in books, etc." Are there reliable independent sources to verify that all members of the Royal Society were distinguished scientists or mathematicians, as opposed to proving that a selected subset of them were? That none got in via influence like some member of a royal family or other powerful persons who did not happen to have any demonstrated scientific accomplishments? (They might be notable for being powerful, but that would not support a claim of scientific notability contra speedy deletion). The Society's history[6] says that before 1730 the membership criteria were "vague" and that even after they started written records of why someone was proposed for membership, there was a mixture of working scientists and "wealthy amateurs" whose membership was sought apparently because of the money they brought (rather than their scientific accomplishments.) A "wealthy patron" of a scientist is not necessarily a distinguished scientist, any more than a wealth patron of the arts or music is an artist or musician. I dread the inevitable assertions of automatic notability for drones who somehow gained membership in such a society.Edison (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Edison, I'm sorry to have to say it, but you seem to be picking a fight for a fight's sake. Now either make a mass AfD for all FRSes, or put up with the idea that being elected a fellow of the Royal Society is a very very good indicator of notability. I no longer see the point of this thread. You have come up with exactly no examples of non-notable fellows, and just four examples of non-scientists who were fellows, but whose fellowship was a result of their quite extraordinarily notable other activities. DuncanHill (talk) 22:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The fellowships of the Prime Ministers and of 18th century wealthy contributors argue against any assumption that membership=distinguished scientist, and the fellowships for prime ministers are as dubious as the scientific honors awarded Mrs. Ceauşescu, who was both wealthy and powerful. Perhaps the unsourced stubs could say "Mr. X, FRS, was either a distinguished scientist, or wealthy, or powerful, or came from family with connections." Edison (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Have all 60 been restored? These should never have been deleted, but I suppose not everybody realizes that saying somebody is a FRS is a statement of notability. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if it seems I am "picking a fight." Please assume good faith. It is incumbent on those who claim "FRS=distinguished scientist" to provide reliable independent sources to verify that ALL members of the Royal Society, throughout its history, were distinguished scientists or mathematicians. So far no one has offered any such sources, just accusations of fight picking and unsourced assertions of how renowned the Society is. I have seen too many instances of an entitlement viewpoint whereby people create a series of unsourced stubs and then claim inherent notability for some class of articles, whether they are highways, high schools, or baronets. It is not required for me to prove that some of the members were non-notable. WP:N works quite the opposite way. Edison (talk) 00:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Until reading this discussion, I would never doubted an FRS member's notability. But now after considering all these views here I've become agnostic. Perhaps the FRS really does invite members based on different criteria. Perhaps it's as simple as a powerful individual with a sincere interest in science. Powerful could be as a star scientist but perhaps it also includes powerful politician or powerful aristrocrat or powerful personality. Perhaps there have been affirmative action programs where women were invited with the main purpose being to boost numbers. How can any of us be sure? I've read enough history to know that there are at least a few skeleton's in the FRS's closet (e.g., refusing to publish some members work as was done to Oliver Heaviside after 1894...definitely a bonehead move, since his work was actually good as well as sound). --Firefly322 (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
There is consensus that recently elected members of the Royal Society have been notable in their scientific or mathematical work, and not so much a consensus that that has always been the case, or that that is the case for every other British Royal Society, or for the main national science academy in every other country at every period, such as Rumania during the Ceauşescu regime. For recent members of the Royal Society and for a random deceased member of the U.S. National Academy, editors could quickly come up with some references indicating notability, so speedy deletion of recent members of these groups seems inappropriate. So far as I am concerned, mark this one resolved, with the proviso that the article creator should provide a link to prove that the person in the article is indeed a member of the Royal Society. I have seen hoax articles asserting that the subject was the "Irish National Dancing Champion" when he wasn't, and unsubstantiated assertions of membership in honored societies could at least be PROD'ed.Edison (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


Please help me, I was sent here as a respond to my request via {{help me}} template. User:VartanM has been stalking me around since long ago but I have always tried to stay calm and hoped that would stop. I don't want to tell more about how he or she has been doing that but just want to show you one example 1. This particular behavoir against other established member of the community is unacceptable. Note also that he is currently on civility parole and being descussed here. Thank you. 00:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC). "Refactored". Gülməmməd Talk 01:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

What does "tauching" mean? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I assume he means "taunting". --Barberio (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Should I cross post about how Gulmammad is intimidating new and IP users? Or how about soapboxing? How about writing frivolous reports with misleading diffs? VartanM (talk) 01:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

And what do you mean "stalking me around since long ago" I just came back from a 2 month wikibreak and before that I had almost 0 contact with you. I got to here because I have the article he edited on my watchlist, and seeing your rude and unwelcoming comment I had to respond. VartanM (talk) 01:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

  • To Gulmammad: Although he found it anyway, in the future, please notify someone when starting a thread on AN or AN/I about them. Thanks, Enigma message 01:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
This page is also in my watchlist :). I have the add the pages that I edit to my watchlist configuration on. VartanM (talk) 02:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I am asking administrators' opinion not someone who tries to hide the problem by making non-related comments over here. Apearantly I am being stalking even here! Please, is there anyone who seriously cares about my problem? Thank you. Gülməmməd Talk 20:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I've only briefly looked at how this conflict has unfolded so I have no comment on prior edits, but I must say I have trouble understanding how VartanM's most recent edit here could objectively be considered stalking. --Jeremyb (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I see no stalking activity here. In addition, notifying the user regarding a case about him is not making "non-related" comments. In fact, it's necessary for an even and involved dialogue. seicer | talk | contribs 20:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Please note that I came here via {{help me}} template and there is no steps as in AfD to indicated how to report such incidents. Thank you. Gülməmməd Talk 20:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying he shouldn't be allowed to come here to defend himself or make general comments? I'm confused. Enigma message 20:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
May I ask you to comment on the original problem? Gülməmməd Talk 22:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Please delete Chip Berlet[edit]

I am Chip Berlet. The entry under Chip Berlet has, since it was created in 2004, been off and on a collection of biased, defamatory, and false information. It is currently biased and POV and fails the NPOV standard, much less BLP. It is currently under attack from conspiracy theorists and supporters of neofascist antisemite Lyndon LaRouche. Now being attacked are some entries where my work published in reputable journalistic and scholarly sources is being called unreliable and problematic. I have been trying to work within the Wiki guidelines on the entry Chip Berlet since December 2004. It is obvious that there is no interest in dealing with this ongoing problem and that Wikipedia's leadership ahs no solution to wikistalking and attacks by fanatics, which in my case has extended to a battle at Wiki quotes. Enough. Please delete the entry Chip Berlet. If it is appropriate for Dan Brandt, it is appropriate for me. Wikipedia has shown that it is unwilling or unable to enforce its own policies, and I have no faith that this will change in the near future. I have been through RFC's, Mediations, and Arbcom. It has been an utter waste of time. Please delete the entry Chip Berlet, and when that is accomplished. Please delete my user account. I have no interest in discussing this.--Cberlet (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleting your user page, sure. As far as deleting Chip Berlet in article space, that should be taken to AfD. Jonathunder (talk) 21:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chip Berlet (2nd nomination), courtesy of Will Beback (talk · contribs).. - auburnpilot talk 21:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone should probably SNOW-close it. It's going down the same path as the one from 2005. Enigma message 22:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 Done PeterSymonds (talk) 22:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I see what happened, but I do believe it doesn't have a Snowball's chance in hell. Keeping in mind the first AfD/VfD (unanimous among 14 editors) and past AfDs involving such things as "Subject of article doesn't like article", it doesn't have a prayer. 11 Keeps at the current one, with a sole delete that doesn't provide a good rationale. We have never removed articles because of a simple request from the subject. Sometimes we have ended up removing articles that the subject wanted removed, but it wasn't solely due to that. Enigma message 23:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

request for edits on protected talk pages[edit]

Resolved: Requested actions performed by User:AuburnPilot. - Icewedge (talk) 01:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Per a recent WP:UCFD could an admin please make the following change on the following pages:

  1. User talk:Browse4you
  2. User talk:Onkaci
  3. User talk:Street family Entertainment


[[Category:Wikipedia users blocked for spam]] → [[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for spamming]]

When the changes have been made, please notify me either here, or on my talk page. Thank you.--Rockfang (talk) 00:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. - auburnpilot talk 01:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Blocked user is editing... how?[edit]

Hi, fellow admins. Can anyone explain this?

I thought that I indefinitely blocked User:As1960 here: [7]. He was then able to remove the template from his user page here: [8]. How did he do that? My intention is to block the username.

Incidentally, I believe that the blocked individual has returned as one of the editors of the article Andrew Shulman. - Richard Cavell (talk) 05:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Users can edit their own talk pages when blocked. --Golbez (talk) 05:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Golbez has protected the talk page.[9] I think As1960 is a vandalism-only account. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Did someone delete the main page again?[edit]

Is there something hinky going on this morning, or is site performance just generally bad today? I'm seeing the database locked repeatedly. Maybe we're just busy? UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's been slow for a couple days now. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo spilled Coke on his keyboard and hasn't gotten around to cleaning it yet. Gwynand | TalkContribs 14:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, the Main Page is un-deletable. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Quite true, as Ryan told somebody recently "Go ahead and try" (Please note, this is NOT an instruction to go ahead and try). Tim Vickers (talk) 15:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I think a few days ago it was Sandstein deleting Pokémon types with over 2700 revisions (warning, long page load time), but I dunno' what's up with it now. Are there other long pages at AfD a lot recently? lifebaka (talk - contribs) 15:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh it's possible to delete the Main Page... they installed some protection after I deleted it, but there's a workaround, and I've certainly learned my lesson and not telling others how to do it. Maxim(talk) 16:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Yeah now it forwards you to MS clippy. "It looks like you are trying to delete the main page." --AdultSwim (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Let me guess - you have to move it first, then delete it ;) --Duk 21:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Only one way to find out... James086Talk | Email 05:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Dare ya. --Duk 05:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"Campaigner" vandal[edit]

What we have here is a monkey with a keyboard. His previous accounts all have the names "Campaignerxxxxx" with the X's replaced by a seemingly random five-digit number. Any way to block the creation of an account with this naming convention? Getting off-subject, yesterday was a particularly difficult day with the Grawp vandals; it's clear that "Grawp" is more than one person. What, if anything, is being done about this on a legal or technical level? I loathe cleaning up after this guy. He takes up administrative time best spent elsewhere and he/they are clearly abusing their terms of service agreements. It's time Wikia stopped looking the other way or lots of good editors are going to burn out and never return. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 21:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Multi-user-Grawp was clear on EnycDrama months ago. --AdultSwim (talk) 22:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

True, but what if anything is being done by the company which runs this site? As I said, I'm tired of cleaning up after these fools. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

How do you suggest we implement your request? —Kurykh 22:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I've added "campaigner" to the Username Blacklist. And Wikia is not affiliated with Wikipedia. Grandmasterka 22:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec with above)I salted the "clinton" deleted article, since it had been created 3 times. It appears that the vandal abandons each account after only a few edits, so I see little point of urgency in blocking them upon appearance. Anything that is used over a couple of days, report to AIV. All the others, give me a list at the end of the month and I will indef block them en masse. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Or make a list and request a CU for an IP block. KnightLago (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I have run a CU. I have blocked for a month as the underlying IP. This is a good-hand bad-hand situation -- I have contacted the user in question before taking any further action. Sam Korn (smoddy) 22:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
So this user is all the "Campaigner" socks. He is also User:AppleMacReporter and all his sockpuppets. His good-hand is AMRDeuce (talk · contribs), whom I have blocked indefinitely following an email conversation. Thanks for bringing this up. Sam Korn (smoddy) 06:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

To answer Kurykh's question, there should be a formal request for a TOS violation investigation against the original account as well as any and all of his little playmates, especially the little SOB who issued me the death threat via a Comcast IP. I doubt any good will come out of discussing the matter with the people who run ED; they don't seem to care what goes on over at that playpen. The persons who are responsible for the operatio of this site have a responsibility to make sure that it's a favorable experience for all involved. This can be stopped. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Gwernol created CV page for self, PR Spam for product and company, deleted COI tages[edit]

Resolved: No need for intervention. Sceptre (talk) 23:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
IP left after being warned. Will block upon return to mischief. Grandmasterka 02:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Gwernol has created pages for self, product and company.

He's a huge enemy of COI, and SPAM, and has seen fit to derogate 100% from his own religion - and it's been like that for over two years. Currently he's involved in a COI Mediation case addressing this very issue (COI), accusing a well-meaning user of ill comportment. This needs to be looked at. None of the articles are notable. He's removing COI tags. This is not good stuff. COI case here All three articles have been duly AFD'd. As well they should be. Seriously folks. Be serious.

Proof? —Kurykh 23:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh my god, he edited an article about himself! Lets call in Jimbo, Elonka, Jehochman, Cberlet and William M Connelly! Sceptre (talk) 23:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
call in Essjay as defense atty. --AdultSwim (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
That biography is a year old and it was created by another user. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
If you think the sources are weak, send the articles to AfD. Oops, sorry, IPs can't create AfD pages. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I marked this as unresolved, there may not be any need for admin intervention in the supposed COI matters, but what about this IP that seems to be on a crusade here? Is Gwernol's RL identity common knowledge? It doesn't seem to be on his userpage at least. Mr.Z-man 23:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The IP as of now has offered absolutely no proof that Gwernol is the person mentioned. —Kurykh 00:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I would block for the attempted outing, attacks on other editors, and revert warring. But at this point I consider myself involved (as I've made some of the reverts). Mr.Z-man 00:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I've warned the IP, am very close to blocking for personal attacks and harassment. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

A quick word of thanks from me for all the help with this rather unfortunate incident. It appears that someone objected to my removal of inappropriate external links from the IPTV article. For the record I have chosen not to reveal my identity on Wikipedia, though several admins, including Jimbo as it happens, are aware of it. So, again thanks to Kurykh, Sceptre, AdultSwim, Caribbean H.Q., Grandmasterka, Gwen Gale and Mr.Z-man. Best, Gwernol 02:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I do not see this as resolved. Jimmy knows me too, so what does that get me? Flowanda | Talk 05:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


This template is empty but linked in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Public domain. It should be created or deleted the link.--Sdrtirs (talk) 05:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The PubMed page says the information present is public domain, but only from the National Library of Medicine. Everywhere else, it might be under copyright. I suggest on removing the link for right now, so we can figure out this template. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Backlog at...well...everywhere[edit]

Hey y'all
Is it just me or are the backlogs right now far worse than usual? There's 151 AfDs needing closing, 34 requested moves in the backlog area, 53 Suspected Sock Puppets, including 35 from over a week ago and 4 from June, a couple dozen Templates for Deletion over a week old, and 92 possible copyright violations. Where is everybody? And more specifically, can at least the stuff from June at WP:SSP be cleaned up? I'd do it myself but, of course, I'm not so equipped...
Thanks much everyone!--CastAStone//₵₳$↑₳₴₮ʘ№€ 02:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/CastAStone 2 ? ;> (I'll see what I can do about dem backloggen)... –xeno (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
If you wait for 8-12 months, I'll help with this backlog. Beam 03:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to try to do a few RM's each night to help out; my time has been a bit restricted. CastAStone does have a good point the backlogs which require an experienced eye have been overlooked. Old timers' need to help out, and new admins need to get their feet wet. Keegantalk 04:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I performed a RM but then I realized that all the links needed to be fixed so, I had to get my bot approved for that and then...well, now it's time for bed =) I'll attack some more moves tommorow. –xeno (talk) 04:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
A bot approval for What links here fixes? Good grief :) Keegantalk 06:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:SSP has been cut from 4 from june to 2 from june, so I guess that's progress. ;) --CastAStone//₵₳$↑₳₴₮ʘ№€ 03:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Some of the ongoing backlogs do exist for various reasons. SSP can be backlogged because many cases requires much research and scrutiny, as false accusations can have ramifications in regards to contributions. RM backlogged discussions often need further input to determine consensus if the discussion has stalled, or in some cases discussions last over a month. Just a thought. Keegantalk 07:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete User talk:Bob the biro[edit]

Hey. Can someone please delete User talk:Bob the biro under CSD-R1. I would tag it but it is protected :) Thanks in advance.. --·Add§hore· Talk/Cont 16:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Reprotected as well. Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks PeterSymonds and Lifebaka :P ·Add§hore· Talk/Cont 16:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[edit]


be created as a redirect to:

when I go to the top link:

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Http:// in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

and try to:

Start the Http:// article or add a request for it.

it says


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search

The page title that you have attempted to create has been included on the local title blacklist, which prevents it from being used due to abuse. If you have a good reason for creating a page with this title, or if you receive this message when attempting to edit an existing page, please let us know at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Be sure to specify the exact title of the page you are trying to create or edit, as well as a brief explanation of what you were trying to do. Thank you.

I have been trying to link to : in my comment history to show which template I am using, but it has been coming out wrong and as a red link (as above)


JohnRussell (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:Citation... if you tried to do, that's because you're confusing external with internal links. Calvin 1998 (t-c) 17:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
What you're technically doing there is trying to search for a URL within Wikipedia. It's like if you were to type "" into Wikipedia's search box - you'd get nothing, because Wikipedia has no articles (or redirects, as far as I know) with URLs as the name. —kaoskastle (Talk) 18:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Act of Abjuratoin[edit]

On the main page, can someone add that today is the anniversery of the signing of the Act of Abjuration? Thanks.Red4tribe (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Bit late, by the time stamp my computer shows for your comment there is just 3 hours of today left - and less than two at the time of my posting this (although I am 1 hour ahead of that; BST). The content for each days main page is decided before hand and vary rarely changes over the course of the "day". Learn about how to contribute to it, and next year the anniversary may be marked (if there is consensus). LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


I don't know if this is a Grawp wannabe or just a garden-variety troll who's been watching what's been going on, but I noticed this user on an AN discussion on the subject; this person's lone comment (and a somewhat snide one) is the only edit. Please don't think I'm biting newbies or not assuming good faith, but anything like this having to do with Grawp-style vandalism is worth paying a bit of extra attention to. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 21:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Since you bring the subject up, this and this are awfully bitey, considering neither has any contributions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
And this isn't very constructive at all. Have you read WP:DENY? Your user page says you are on a wikibreak. Maybe a real wikibreak is a good idea if you're letting run-of-the-mill vandalism get you so worked up. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
If the account is making no other edits, there is no point in blocking it. There may be reason to CU, but I don't see the usefulness at this time. --AdultSwim (talk) 21:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was worth bringing up. As far as those "bites" were concerned, the first was a mistake. I thought it spelled out "asswipe" and I apologized when I realized it did not. I believe I was justified for the second one. The user had created a sockpuppet account with a similar username even before I issued my statement. He did in fact vandalize an article as well. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with any of the above bites. But complaining(notifying) about other users on AN while having unclean hands is a little dickish. --AdultSwim (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
If, for the first case, you had reported the username and said nothing to the user, or told the user that their name may be unacceptable, you would have had nothing to apologise for. In the second and third cases, taunting vandals is not likely to induce them to stop being vandals. Is your userpage vandalised a lot, by any chance? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:41, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I would also say that this Grawp idiocy is more than run-of-the-mill vandalism. It's a coordinated, ongoing attack that has been going on for nearly a year, it's taking up way too much volunteer time and the powers-that-be don't seem to care. I do contribute constructively to this site and yes, I need a break because trying to stay ahead of this nonsense has burned me out. Sorry I brought it up. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
    • If people would stop talking about it so much, it wouldn't take up so much time. The "powers-that-be" have been using bots and scripts to clean it up in seconds for some time now. Its all these discussions and proposals and people freaking out over this that is what takes up so much time. Mr.Z-man 21:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Its kind of like that one time when you drank too much at the Office Christmas party and everyone freaked out when you started dialing phone numbers with your penis. Like that, everyone just needs to calm down and move on. Its time we realize that these things will happen from time to time. --AdultSwim (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Can't recall ever having gotten quite that drunk...moving on...definitely takong some time out, though. Thanks for the laugh. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

    • To answer your above question, yes it was. I was reporting the Grawp vandalism en masse to AIV as it came in. I am no longer an administrator by my own choosing, but I still do lots of administrative tasks unless I happen to think of a subject to write about. Those vandals focus on those who thwart them, especially the admins who block them. Persian Poet Gal, NawlinWiki and Luna Santin are their favorite targets since they're among the most active admins in blocking them. As for me, I was the victim of a coordinated IP attack which included a death threat from a Comcast IP, so my pages have been protected. I know that my lashing out isn't going to stop them. All I have is a rollback button and the ability to report abuse. Since I'm a whistleblower, I'm a target. PMDrive1061 (talk) 21:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Usernameblacklist disabled[edit]

Per this message on Wikitech-l the Usernameblacklist extension has been disabled. Until it is enabled again, names on MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist are technically possible to create. FunPika 18:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

*BEANS alert*... Anthøny 18:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Just gotta' watch WP:UAA like a hawk. User:HBC NameWatcherBot should still catch them. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
It's back running again. --MCB (talk) 06:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

IRC related notification[edit]

Just drawing everyone's attention (sorry if it was done earlier) to a planned meeting at m:User:Ryan Postlethwaite/IRC, related to Wikimedia Foundation IRC group contacts. I have requested on the page linked that the meeting's contents be publically logged (I made that request a few minutes ago so I haven't gotten a response at time of writing). —Giggy 05:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Usernameblacklist disabled[edit]

Per this message on Wikitech-l the Usernameblacklist extension has been disabled. Until it is enabled again, names on MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist are technically possible to create. FunPika 18:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

*BEANS alert*... Anthøny 18:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Just gotta' watch WP:UAA like a hawk. User:HBC NameWatcherBot should still catch them. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
It's back running again. --MCB (talk) 06:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

IRC related notification[edit]

Just drawing everyone's attention (sorry if it was done earlier) to a planned meeting at m:User:Ryan Postlethwaite/IRC, related to Wikimedia Foundation IRC group contacts. I have requested on the page linked that the meeting's contents be publically logged (I made that request a few minutes ago so I haven't gotten a response at time of writing). —Giggy 05:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh Hai, can I has backlog?[edit]


Good morning. It looks like we've been busy with CSD tagging - There are currently 368 pages in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. The majority seem to be articles, though I'm seeing quite a few templates as well. Some eyes from my fellow admins would be of value, I think.

The current live count, or close to it (since PAGESINCAT isn't exactly accurate), is thus: All CSDs = -7. Thanks again for your help! UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 13:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Working. It's still at 128 right now. Raygun time. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to all for their help - we're hovering around 100 now. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 20:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Down to 4, I'm marking this resolved. Hut 8.5 18:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Autoconfirm admin proposal[edit]

There is a proposal to autoconfirm admins. Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"Autoconfirm admins" is a bit disingenuous. The proposal is (or was) to grant adminship by simple request if someone passed arbitrary account age and edit count criteria. It has been SNOW-rejected. Stifle (talk) 12:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

CmdrObot is working for Amazon![edit]

Resolved: notifying user has been awarded a barnstar for his dillegence, The 'non Amazon' bot will continue editing --AdultSwim (talk) 19:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

While making some commendable edits, this bot is adding commercials for . Lots and lots of them!

  1. 02:01, 23 September 2006 Pseudomonas (Talk | contribs) (Replacing Amazon Book URLs with ISBNs - using AWB) (undo)
  1. (cur) (last) 03:00, 19 March 2006 CmdrObot (Talk | contribs) m (Compact Amazon URL; unicodify) (undo)

This bot should be prevented from adding linkspam.Fconaway (talk) 07:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Those are from 2006. ? Enigma message 07:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I notified User:Cmdrjameson of this thread. Enigma message 07:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
And the bot is fixing the urls not adding any. Look at all the recent edits the bot has made Fconaway, and look at reverts you made of the bot. The bot is compacting the url that was already there! Not adding any. Also "Replacing Amazon Book URLs with ISBNs" he is adding ISBNs, that's good! Please stop reverting the bot. « Gonzo fan2007 (talkcontribs) @ 07:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Agree with this assessment. SQLQuery me! 07:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I have rolled back all Fconaway's reversions of the bot's earlier edits. « Gonzo fan2007 (talkcontribs) @ 07:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay. The bot does a good job as far as it goes, but the spam's still there.Fconaway (talk) 09:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Yup, the project is full of Amazon spam, feel free to nuke as much of it as you can handle. Guy (Help!) 09:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
With the exception, of course, of ASIN where ISBN, OCLC and ISSN are found wanting. Skomorokh 10:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know about this discussion. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, I don't work for Amazon, and all I'm doing is removing cruft (and identifying information) from overlong Amazon URLs. Someone suggested to me recently that it might be replacing Amazon links that are just ISBN-10s (and not ASINs) with the appropriate ISBN magic word. On the face of it, this sounds like a good idea to me. Would people be in favour of this? Cheers, CmdrObot (talk) 14:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Replacing Amazon links with isbns when it is obvious how to do so sounds like a good project for a bot to me. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Excellent! There are so many (which have crept in by good faith editing) that they can't be handled one by one. I suspect there may be links to other retailers, as well. We shouldn't favor any of them over the hardworking guy down the street. ISBNs, etc., go far enough.Fconaway (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion[edit]

See also WP:COIN. The long and the short of it is, Pcarbonn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has written an article in a fringe journal, New Energy Times, openly admitting that he has been pursuing a years-long agenda to skew the article Cold fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to be more favourable to the fringe views proomoted by that journal, [10] and especially [11]. Example:

"I'm pleased to report that the revised page, resulting from the mediation process, presents the topic as a continuing controversy, not as an example of pathological science. This is a major step forward in the recognition of the new field of condensed matter nuclear science and low-energy nuclear reaction research ... I now have a lot of respect for all paradigm-shifting scientists, like Copernicus, Galileo, Fleischmann and Pons, and the other courageous cold fusion pioneers".


Few media outlets are paying attention to the subject, and many of the prominent individuals known to New Energy Times who are observing the field are keeping mum though a few observers such as Ron Marshall and Pierre Carbonnelle have tried their best to participate.

Per WP:NPOV, if "few media outlets are paying attention to the subject, and many of the prominent individuals known to New Energy Times who are observing the field are keeping mum" then Wikipedia should be right there with them. Not working to fix that problem, as Pierre Carbonelle and Ron Marshall have tried. And try they most assuredly have.

This is a wholly inappropriate use of Wikipedia. We are not here to resurrect the reputations of pariah fields, we are here to document them. Pcarbonn and other members of this fringe group have been the major editors of that article for a very long time, and caused it to be demoted from FA status due to POV-pushing.

I have reverted, again, to the FA version. This is reasonably free of the subtle and destructive bias of this group. A friend of mine who was a grad student in one of the labs in which the original Fleischmann-Pons experiments were conducted, and who is still active in academia as a full professor in bio and electrochemistry at an English university, read through the FA version and said he considers it a fair representation of the field. I trust his judgment in a way I don't trust that of Pcarbonn.

This incident is a perfect example of a problem I have pointed out many times: those who seek to promote a fringe view are attracted to Wikipedia by its profile. It is massively more important to them to get their POV reflected on Wikipedia, tan it is to almost any Wikipedian to stop them. Long-term polite POV-pushing, driving off all those who seek to maintain neutrality, has in this case resulted in an article with which the POV-pushers are very happy, reflecting as it does their fringe view.

As I say, I reverted to the FA version which has the benefit of not having been subject to years of insidious POV-pushing. I also suggest an indefinitet topic ban for Pcarbonn. I do not recall his ever having declared his conflict of interest during the protracted mediation in which he was the main, almost sole at times, participant. He has abused the project, abused the good faith of Seicer and others, and committed a gross violation of WP:NPOV in the service of an off-wiki agenda, using Wikipedia to change reality rather than document it. Enough. Guy (Help!) 07:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Before I consider your suggestion further, could you provide the link between the author of that piece and the account in question? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Oops, confusion - the link you provided above goes to the wrong article. The user links to the right one from his user page. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd also note that his statement "I have won the battle for cold fusion) (note where "the battle" links to" is completely inappropriate and is about the mostl explicit, if not the most severe, violation of