Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive173

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my sisters page[edit]

Resolved: Look, at this point I don't care if you're the crap entering her toilet. You're not going to get the article deleted just on your say-so, and your belligerence has only gotten you an extended block. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 08:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

My sisters name is Julianna Mauriello. she has a page on this website where people are adding stuff that is not true. I have fixed the page to show what is true. But some of the stalkers, I mean people on this site, keep changing it to not true stuff. My sister knows about this website. She knows it is full of garbage. we either want her page removed or to show real information. she was on a show called Lazytown that finished filming in 2007. she will be attending Vasser college for elementary education in 2009. i dont know how sourced you want then that. i was told in email that her biography page was to have incorrect stuff removed asap, well i am trying to do that but a few people are fighting with me. Not coincidentaly, they are the same people who have had control of her website on here for years and have riddled it with misinformation. I, We, would like the page removed. My sister is a minor, the misinformation on the page could be considered dammaging. since i have been to this site 3 times in my life, chances are I will not be able to find my way back here so you may email me at (email address redacted by Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) thanks --Anthony —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.234.104.242 (talk) 07:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Tough. We have an OTRS system which will work with her to fix or delete the article; we can't act on IP addresses' say so because we have no way to verify you're actually her brother. I've also taken the liberty of removing your email address so as to prevent people from grabbing it and sending you harassing/spam emails. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 07:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
This user has been blocked for 24 hours for 3RR violation. ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 07:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
And extended to 48 for calling others pedophiles. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 07:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone oversight the email left in one of the edit summaries left by the IP as well? Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
That diff has already been selectively deleted. Oversighting probably isn't needed. Stifle (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

WYSIWYG editors?[edit]

Wikipedia is great. Wiki syntax however keeps most people from helping (just put ALL your coding/math/tech skills (and interests!!) aside for a minute and remember most people are like that) Is there an editor for non-coders that can be put in a not-to-miss place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.170.134.79 (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Title added. You may want to have a look at WP:WikiEd. It Is Me Here (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"Nancy" vandal and other dynamic IP idiocy[edit]

It's scary stuff like this which prompted me to shut down my account and watch the goings-on from the sidelines. I've seen the sheer stupidity of garbage like the organized "Grawp" vandalism (which I was a victim of, by the way), nearly one thousand blocked socks of User:MascotGuy in a four-year stretch and the ongoing sockpuppet wars here and there but never in all the years I contributed to this site have I see something so egregious as those revolting and incessant attacks on User:Nancy. Why do all the sickos have dynamic IPs and why in hell has this been allowed to continue? I tell you, I'm at the point where I don't even want to casually surf this site, let alone contribute. I'm happy on some smaller specialized wikis which never get bothered by this insanity. If the attacks against Nancy aren't a clarion call for the Wikimedia Foundation to press charges against those responsible, I don't know what is. Heck, just a quick perusal of the new user page mostly turns up childish vandals with a penchant for fart jokes, wildly nationalistic editors with axes to grind regarding their perceived misrepresentation of their country and spammers, spammers everywhere. Very few new accounts actually seem to be constructive. That said, I fear this Nancy attack is far more dangerous than the threat posed by the bored teenagers who perpetuated Grawp. This is obsession, plain and simple. Good luck. As for me, I think it's time to just go away cold turkey and never return. Just no fun anymore. :( Thanks for listening. Regretfully, --70.104.7.231 (talk) 19:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Dude. Nancy is an admin, and, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, quite capable of taking care of herself. Sorry to hear that you can't stand her page being vandalised though. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry, as long as there are vandal, we have plenty more good editors who will clean up their messes. Nancy's a good admin too, I'm sure she can handle the childish attacks on her page. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you guys have her back covered. My concern was over the rather obsessive behavior of this one, well, jackass if you'll pardon my French. She's made of some strong stuff if she can keep on taking that ridiculous taunting without walking away...and I wouldn't blame her if she did. Thanks for the reassurance. Sincerely, me again at work via --76.79.100.242 (talk) 22:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Delayed speedy deletion[edit]

There is a proposal to unify the deletion delay on categories like replaceable fair use, empty category, possibly unfree images, and redundant templates, changing them all to five days. Please visit WT:CSD if you wish to discuss this. Stifle (talk) 20:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Topic ban needed for two edit warriors[edit]

Rarelibra (talk · contribs) and Supparluca (talk · contribs) are at each other's throats again over lame geographical naming issues relating to South Tyrol (see Provinces of Italy and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. This has gone on between these two users for years. I've told them both that they'd be topic-banned from this dispute, and I now ask such a topic ban to be endorsed by the community. These are otherwise constructive contributors (well, at least Rarelibra is, I can say that much), so I wouldn't want to see them blocked, but they both evidently have totally entrenched, intransigent positions on this particular conflict and need to be kept away from it.

I move that both Rarelibra and Supparluca be topic-banned from all edits (I'd say including all namespaces and talk) relating to contentious geographical naming practices relating to South Tyrol. Including but not restricted to: any changes to Wikipedia usage of the terms South Tyrol, Südtirol, Bolzano, Bozen, Alto Adige, or any other occasion where there is a choice between German-derived and Italian geographical names in that area.

Fut.Perf. 14:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the proposal is too complex. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, don't worry, those two guys will know perfectly well what it pertains to, no problem there. If you want simpler wording, just call it: "Hands off of South Tyrol Alto Adige Südtirol Bolzano-Bozen" (but there you get the problem again.). Fut.Perf. 14:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this is probably too complex for the typical noticeboard thread (where everyone either overtly or covertly wants to ban everyone). Just file an RFAR. — CharlotteWebb 15:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Arbitration is the last resort and probably ArbCom would just propose a topic ban as well. I'd agree that this board has to be limited to only serious issues that has taken long to get sorted out without success. However, I have no idea about this particular case but probably mediation was not tried? -- fayssal - wiki up® 18:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, I'd be loath to go to arbitration over a dispute that is so relatively minor and narrowly circumscribed. It's just these two people, with one or two allies on either side perhaps, and it's just this relatively small set of articles. But it's extremely persistent, has been going on for years, shifts from one page to the next (sometimes it's an article name, then an image caption, than a map legend, then a category renaming, then a POV fork, then a merger proposal, then a page move, and so on, but always about the same underlying issue.) I'm sure there isn't a dispute resolution technique that hasn't been tried yet; I seem to remember there was some mediation attempt once, back some time, in the late pleistocene or thereabouts, but it all came to nothing. At one point Rarelibra got himself indef-banned for making rather nasty off-wiki threats of some sort, then got back on parole under the understanding he'd be topic-banned, but he ignored that once he understood the other guy wasn't being topic-banned too. They just won't stop, and there is not a shred of AGF left between these two. Fut.Perf. 18:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
FPaS - I disagree. I cannot see where I am doing nothing more than defending the image work that I have done, in this case. You worked with me to an acceptable new image, and then Supparluca merely copied it, changed text, and uploaded it under the modified name (again - the image already exists in Commons). There was no need for Supparluca to do what he did, other than continue the agenda that was started years ago. You must admit that it has been some time now since I have participated in any disagreements about naming - simply stated, I've focused primarily on images and other geographic articles. The team you mention (Supparluca, Icsunonove, etc) all pretty much patrol those pages and focus all of their efforts on the continued push for name changing and article elimination (case in point was the valid and common usage name of "South Tyrol", an English equivalent of Sudtirol). I have avoided their name changing only up until it involved the removal of a valid image I had in place, with the substitution of the SAME IMAGE under a different file name. Rarelibra (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Support the topic ban as described in the paragraph above, "..relating to contentious geographical naming practices.." I think the above paragraph is clear enough for administrators new to the dispute to take action on it, if necessary. Any attempt by one of these editors to switch between German-derived and Italian-derived geographic names will trigger the ban. EdJohnston (talk) 16:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
If I may, I would like to make a quick statement here. Supparluca did not like an image I had up there (I specialize in maps) - so he started the recent actions. The image I had was approved by admins a while ago to be applicable because it covered the various language usages of the area. Please note it used the names that, by Wiki, are to be used - the common usage and English equivalents for the area. Supparluca merely downloaded MY image from Commons and made a local image in ENG Wiki for his special POV case. I tried to restore my image, and the result was the edit war. I then made the effort to UPDATE the image, making it better with more accuracy, color use, labels, etc. Supparluca simply took the UPDATED image and, once again, modified it to copy over his preferred usage. He made no attempt to contact me in any request for modifying the image or working out any requests to update, nor was there ANY ACTION on the articles for the need or request for updating the image. He is doing this as a POV move of his own volition. I did NOTHING MORE than restore the image (as my history will show), and create an update. My history will also show that my focus has not been this topic for some time, as my focus has been in many other countries/areas. Rarelibra (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Fut Perf. I've re-read it and I think I understand what you're saying now. If you don't mind, I'd propose wording it as "Rarelibra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) and Supparluca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) are topic banned from all edits relating to South Tyrol, broadly construed. Included in this topic ban are: edits where changes are made to the terms South Tyrol, Südtirol, Bolzano, Bozen, Alto Adige, or any other change between German-derived and Italian geographical names in that area." Is that okay? Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Support: Either FutPerf's original or Ncmvocalist's revision or whatever. I happened across this endless issue by accident a long time ago and carry the scars to this day. Whatever will end it, please do. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, it was over two years ago that I encountered this dispute! Wow, I could barely focus for the 60 seconds it took me to track down that discussion... I can't imagine hanging with a dispute for over two years! —Wknight94 (talk) 19:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • A topic-ban for these two seems reasonable. Moreschi (talk) 19:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Although I have been asked by Rarelibra (talk · contribs) to voice my opinion, I'd like to remain neutral because this topic has generated such an immense amount of ill-feeling I think it best I refrain from this discussion. Either way I have to laud Rarelibra (talk · contribs) for the innumerous constructive contributions he has done so far, a ban on him I do not consider fair. Gryffindor 20:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Procedural oppose. Sorry, but I just can't get behind any proposal to topic ban whose presentation is based solely upon links to account names and two articles. Future Perfect, I have the highest opinion of your judgment generally, but just isn't the sort of precedent we ought to set: AGF requires the rest of us to assume that no action is needed, and places the burden of proof upon you to demonstrate more clearly why it is. DurovaCharge! 03:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support the edit warring is pretty clearly the only issue that's a problem. If this will end the issue, it is a good solution. I can't make any sense at all out of Durova's justification for a procedural oppose. *dryly* It's as if you're saying we shouldn't take the word of trusted admins on these issues based on the evidence they put forth. -- Logical Premise Ergo? 13:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Indeed, the community are not incapable or unable to look at the relevant pages and decide for themselves - I doubt this could be characterized as a case that is too hard to follow without some sort of guidance from the complainant. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
      • No matter how justifiable this particular request is, we should expect a substantive presentation in every request for community sanctions. The time it takes to prepare a set of specific diffs etc. is trivial compared to the effort it takes for the requesting administrator to determine that a request is necessary in the first place. We all know that wikilawyers abound: I intend to avoid setting precedents they could manipulate on future occasions. DurovaCharge! 19:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Often, those presentations are lopsided to begin with, so they're often not very reliable on their own because they don't paint the full picture - in which case, we end up having to find the relevant pages for ourselves. I agree; we should still insist on them painting a picture for every case (more than just saying 'I want him banned' or more than just 'look at this page. do something'). But if uninvolved users have looked at it for themselves, then I'm not sure about the validity of such an oppose. While Fut Perf. did not provide any diffs, there was a substantial description given by more than one user as to the duration of this dispute, and the extent of disruption it is causing, and the sorts of pages that are affected by it. If we genuinely couldn't find anything, then I'd be opposing with you on the grounds that I couldn't see anything to support the need for a sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a ban really necessary? I note that neither user has been blocked for many months. Can we try blocking rather than banning first? One user has no blocks at all, the other has several, but the most recent early this year. Mangojuicetalk 23:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a block necessary? No one seems to be looking at the facts surrounding this - for me, it was only about the image. For Supparluca and others, it is pure POV pushing. This, for me, was about the image. For Supparluca it was about manipulating an image I created for his own usage. I make regular contributions - a lot of maps, actually (it may be near 1,000 total maps I've created). So a block would decapitate me from even doing that - as I do geographic sweeps, I find places that need updating or creation. This, for me, is about the image, period. Can anyone NOT see that? Rarelibra (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

A cursory glance at Provinces of Italy seems to indicate that they are indeed reverting the hell out of each other. My question would be: "Has any community/expert consensus been reached on whether either, both, or neither of their proposed edits are correct?" If neither or both name variants are agreed-upon as the common-use name(s), I'd say support topic-banning them both. But if only one is agreed-upon, topic-ban only the one reverting against consensus. arimareiji (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


Maybe it could be helpful to explain a bit what happened:

  • 22/09 User:Supparluca ("S") edited the Provinces of Italy article, putting this image (A1) instead of this (B1), without explanation.
  • 23/09 User:Rarelibra (R) reverted the edit without explanation.
  • 23/09 S restored his version, saying that image A1, unlike image B1, contained the names used in the English wikipedia [check: [1]-[2]-[3]].
  • 23/09 R reverted without explanation.
  • 25/09 S reverted with a more detailed explanation.
  • 25/09 R reverted without explanation.
  • 25/09 R proposed image A1 for deletion, saying that S wanted "to push a POV agenda".
  • 29/09 An unregistered user supported S's version without explanation.
  • 29/09 R reverted without explanation.
  • 01/10 Image A1 was kept, and R said to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise (F) that F doesn't "see his agenda".
  • 01/10 R uploaded a new version of image B1 (B2) with better graphics and the same problem of image B1.
  • 01/10 S uploaded a new version of image A1 (A2) with better graphics but with more alternative names than image A1.
  • 01/10 S reverted R's last edit writing "new image" in the edit summary.
  • 02/10 R reverted without explanation.
  • 04/10 - 06/10 2 reverts by S and 1 by R followed without explanation.
  • 06/10 F said to R and S that he would propose a topic ban.
  • 06/10 R reverted the Provinces of Italy article without explanation.
  • 11/10 S wrote this summary.
  • 12/10 User:Arimareiji (ARI) supported S's version without explanation.
  • 12/10 R reverted without explanation.
  • 14/10 Another unregistered user supported S's version writing "grow up ross..." in the edit summary.
  • 14/10 R reverted writing "stfu and keep to yourself in VA" in the edit summary.

R has 6 blocks, S has 0 blocks.--Supparluca 17:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Having more blocks is certainly circumstantial evidence that a user is not AGF, and has already come up in the thread. But without either 1) a cite of the nomenclature discussion/resolution or 2) an uninvolved (i.e. neither "R" or "S") expert speaking up, I don't think the fundamental question has really been answered. If one is correct by consensus, topic-ban the other. If neither or both are correct by consensus, topic-ban both.> arimareiji (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
After looking into it more thoroughly, I'd like to reword my statement as having been incorrect. If using both names is correct, topic-ban R. If using only South Tyrol is correct, topic-ban S. If neither of the above has been chosen by consensus to be correct, topic-ban both. Anecdotally, I'd note that when I did a Google search:
"Alto Adige" - 25m hits.
"Südtirol" - 8m hits.
"Suedtirol" - 1m hits.
"South Tyrol" - 1m hits. arimareiji (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I need to note that I can no longer consider myself an uninvolved party, as I just reverted the page myself to Supparluca's last version. I don't consider this to be the final word by any means; this is only meant to stand until the matter can be resolved. Supperluca's version seems more likely to be the one supported by consensus, and the page shouldn't be left uncorrected just to make a point. arimareiji (talk) 23:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
In fact I forgot to put the relevant links: Region: Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol; provinces: Province of Trento, Province of Bolzano-Bozen. Note that image A2 has more alternative names than needed (especially if you compare that with the other images in Provinces of Italy), and I would agree on using the same names as image A1.--Supparluca 06:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no desire to become another edit warrior. But as soon as I changed the Alto Adige / Südtirol / South Tyrol map in Provinces of Italy back to what reasonably appears to be the more-likely consensus version, Rarelibra changed it back. If anyone other than Rarelibra or Supperluca who is familiar with this issue could speak up, it would go a long way towards establishing which should be kept up transitionally. I hope that once there's agreement from people other than the two fighting parties, both of them will be civil enough to let the page stand until the dispute can be permanently resolved. arimareiji (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a key fundamental for me... Supparluca did not contact me regarding the image. He requested no name changes, nothing. The image I created was agreed upon for the multi-name usage and was in place for a long time. Supparluca then decided to, on his own agenda (there is no record on even the Projects of Italy page of the need to replace or rename the image) simply copy my image and upload against it. So he even broke Commons rules when a valid image already exists (and I don't see any rules against image names - they are simply reference names to the image). If it is a valid issue with the image names, Supparluca could have brought it up with the Projects of Italy talk page, or on the Provinces of Italy talk page, or on the Province talk page itself. It could then have been voted on and I would have made the necessary changes as the image creator. As it is, I improved the image, and all Supparluca did is copy my image (again) into a different image name.

If the image I created is a problem, fine. If it is voted upon that it is not consensus, I accept. But the original reason for edit war was because of the way he approached it selfishly without consultation. As far as pointing out blocks, I have made mistakes - but you cannot use my history against me. One can see I have contributed over possibly 1,000 maps or more - in many different articles. As opposed to Supparluca's POV push. My involvement with that topic has been very little since the last episode until now. But I do believe that both Supparluca and myself should be topic banned for the year because we are both guilty of something. Rarelibra (talk) 13:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Rarelibra, your insinuation of consensus pretty flatly contradicts the contributions of other editors at Talk:Provinces_of_Italy#Trentino-Alto_Adige.2FSuditirol.2C_etc., continuing to the rest of the page. In fact, your insistence on using South Tyrol as the only name contradicts your own wording from when the dispute first started. And it's extremely hard to AGF when you say "Okay, you win, ban us both for a year" when you've stated elsewhere that you're about to be deployed to Iraq for 400 days, and the page is presently on your revert version. arimareiji (talk) 04:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Arimareiji - it doesn't matter where the page is (now YOU fail to AGF). And where I go has nothing to do with it. Keep that in mind. Rarelibra (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Hilarious to see all this going on again, especially with the accusations of POV pushing and picking out who is good and who is evil. Look, I'll propose a simple fix and this circus can be closed down. First, do not use the image name Trentino-Alto Adige Provinces.png OR Trentino-South Tyrol Provinces.png. Make everyone happy, as we did on Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, by making the file name Trentino-Alto Adige-South Tyrol Provinces.png. Is that really so difficult to do? Did half of you not learn now to share when you were in kindergarten?? :) Next, the map image should certainly have the provincial names (Trento and Bolzano-Bozen) and also the regional terms (Trentino and Alto Adige-South Tyrol). In that case, the current file Trentino-Alto Adige Provinces.png is the most all-inclusive, so rename that file, and be done with it. The users who insist to only use South Tyrol to describe this province need to finally learn to compromise; there is just no other way around it. They do not seem to comprehend that they are explicitly working towards removing the term Alto Adige from English Wikipedia. As in the article Province of Bolzano-Bozen there is obviously room for both terms derived from Italian and German. Now, I definitely Oppose a topic ban, because if you look at the user Supparluca, his passion is obviously for updating the pages of this topic. You ban him, that hurts his work on here. The other user, Rarelibra is enthusiastic in making maps, but has seemingly turned the Provinces of Italy maps into some sort of last stand. It will not be an equivalent punishment if he is banned from this topic, and that is why he doesn't care about such a ban; he will simply be "taking one for his team" and removing an editor he considers on the "evil" side. :-). He supported topic bans before that include himself, you have to ask yourself why he accepts it so easily. :) If you ban Supparluca for one year from this topic, then you have to ban Rarelibra from making maps for one year -after- he returns from military deployment. Anyway, I don't think anyone needs to be banned. If you all are really interested in a long-term solution to these prolonged arguments, simply make it an implicit rule that if there are such naming moves in the future, that a few unbiased admin mediators help form a compromise (Lar, for example). Somehow I'm guessing if Lar was here now, he would agree with the proposal I've made above. Share folks! Aren't there more important things to be concerned about??? No one is asking for only Alto Adige, the vast majority are asking for simply both terms, and that's it. If you look at Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Province of Bolzano-Bozen, those pages have been so very peaceful after the compromise solutions, it is indeed amazing! That is opposed to the Trentino-South Tyrol and South Tyrol that Gryfindor pushed for three years ago -- which ignited all these bad feelings. I noticed that Gryfindor had modified this image earlier [4] with this same tired agenda. That is water under the bridge now.. at least for most. Icsunonove (talk) 20:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the name of the file was a problem; simply, you have to use different names if you don't want to block one image. And I think you can't use the slash, so using a name like 1-2-3, when in fact you mean 1-(2-3), and not (1-2)-3 or (1-2-3), would be confusing.--Supparluca 17:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Hi Icsunonove. Thanks SO MUCH for bringing me here! :) The last time I tried to mediate this, I got so confused by all these names that I don't think anything useful got done. Even Giano couldn't explain it to me. You don't want me mediating it again, trust me. I hate to see people get banned, or even topic banned. I'd rather Rarelibra and Suparluca figured out a compromise between themselves that everyone can live with. (like what Icsunonove suggests, use both names for everything. Why not?) My suggestion would be that they need to go off and work through how they are going to work together, bring it here for discussion, and if it's approved, do it. If they can't... THEN topic ban them. Dunno if that would work. ++Lar: t/c 22:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose any ban for both Rarelibra and Supparluca and substantially agree with Icsunonove. --Checco (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
  • As someone who has been involved in those discussion before (under my old account), I can approve Icsunonove's assessment and oppose this. Also per Durova, much more in-depth evidence including diffs should be provided before I could even consider as drastic a measure as a topic ban. Everyme 22:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I will say this - the only thing I have a problem with is Icsunonove and his mention of my military deployment. There was an anon user who posted hateful statements here (and was subsequently removed and warned). The same anon user posted to my talk page (and was removed). That anon user referred to myself and Gryffindor by personal name, in some lame attempt of insult. The same anon user also sent me a personal email using an anon email server (old DOS trick) - not realizing that you leave an IP trail, also not realizing that certain resources can be used to find out the ISP and name/address of the subscriber. So now I will make it public - Icsunonove is the only one mentioning my military deployment because HE is the anon user that made the comments here and in my own mailbox. If he challenges this offline, I will provide the proof pointing this out. We all know it isn't hard to NOT log on to wiki and run an anon comment.
I want to caution Icsunonove about his previous anon comments and his being the only one mentioning my upcoming military deployment. It is not a factor in this at all - so the statement of banning me from making maps (and contributing to wiki)... let alone waiting until after a return (in 2010, mind you) is a personal attack and desperate measure at best. You should know something, Icsunonove - I VOLUNTEERED to go on the deployment. Karma is not a 'b*#ch' like you mention - though one day we may all meet her face to face. And while I appreciate your article on Nazi hunters in my mailbox, next time I also would appreciate it if you left to yourself. Not even Supparluca - for as much as we disagree - would stoop to the level that you did when you acted as you have.
As has happened before with many editors in the past, I concede and go on my way - I have better, more positive, more productive things to do than to be involved in this mess. But let us plainly recognize the actions that have taken place.
  • 1 - Supparluca felt that an image needed to be changed or altered, without merit or request on either the Projects of Italy page, the talk page of the Provinces of Italy, nor the talk page of the province in question.
  • 2 - Supparluca used GNU capability to copy an image already existing (rather than contact myself - the creator - to ask about updating it) and upload it into a new name. An IMAGE NAME is NEVER an issue on wiki or Commons, as many photos have weird or uncommon names that are not required for an article to be complete. It was an issue, rather, for the geographic names IN the image in question. By creating an extra image, Supparluca did, in effect, violate Commons rules and created a duplicate of sorts. It would have been a lot easier to update the image itself, or to update it and request a move to a new name, or to move to the new name and update the image, etc. So he went about it the wrong way.
  • 3 - I acted the way I did to defend the image that was already created, including updating the detail of the image. I agree with Icsunonove that we can change the geographic names ON THE IMAGE to whatever is best for the article, but the creation of a very similar image (near duplicate) under a different filename is NOT the answer, and that is the crux of the problem.
  • 4 - So my suggestion is - if agreed upon solution by what Icsunonove suggests, we delete all occurrences of the image except for the one that was originally created. Again - the IMAGE NAME is not a problem (nor are they argued about on wiki as seen here) - it is the names ON THE IMAGE that are an issue. So I can alter the image to have the necessary names desired ON the image. But certainly admins/editors can realize that the filename of the image should not be an issue as it seems to be here? Rarelibra (talk) 13:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Rarelibra - If you have evidence of your assertion that Icsunonove is anony-socking you, you need to take it up directly rather than claiming it in multiple threads and inserting Icsunonove's name as a signature. And Icsunonove was not the one who first mentioned your impending deployment, you were. After that, I mentioned it myself earlier in this thread (as evidence of arguable bad faith in your request to be banned along with Supparluca). Icsunonove isn't the first to mention it, he//she's the third. arimareiji (talk) 23:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Arimareiji - you've missed the boat on this one. I have provided sufficient explanation to someone offline who may decide to pursue this online. I will point out to you the obvious - the anonymous user commented earlier in the history of this thread (check the history if you need to) an was quickly removed and warned. The same anon user did so on my talk page and was removed. The same anon user also sent an anon email to my inbox - but email leaves more than just an IP trail (you should know this, Arimareiji). Go ahead and check Icsunonove's IP address and see how closely it resembles the anon IP. I also don't hear any rebuttal or evidence from Icsunonove as to his innocence - this is most likely because he knows I have already had it traced via email and corporate security. So yes, he was the first to mention it (anonymously) - you mentioned it, then I corrected you that it has nothing to do with this situation (after you made a biased judgment of 'bad faith' where you were incorrect), then it was mentioned more maliciously by Icsunonove. As I said, I agree with his assessment for the possible solution, I disagree with his lack of judgment and clearly poor approach in a personal attack that ended up in my inbox. You definitely want to stay out of this one. Rarelibra (talk) 02:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
If what you're saying about having evidence is true, then you're doing yourself no favors by trying it in the court of public opinion instead of letting procedure run its course. And I don't follow you... are you saying that he hacked your account to post that you're being deployed? Because I see your name under that first mention of it on 10/6, not his or an anonymous IP's. Finally, I don't take kindly to veiled threats to "stay out of this one," or dumb implications that I should be careful of email trails. Whether or not your past targets have had anything to be scared of, I know I don't. Stop skirting the boundaries of WP:LEGAL, and either say it directly or be quiet. arimareiji (talk) 10:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Blah blah blah. What I am saying IS true. There isn't any "court" here, so get off the high horse. I won't explain it again - you seen too confused to understand. I didn't issue any threat - as you obviously don't understand I told you it is best you remain detached. There's no skirting here whatsoever, I have said it quite directly, indeed. So you need to stop pushing the issue and remain quiet. Rarelibra (talk) 12:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Woaa there cowboy. Rarelibra, you really have anger-management and paranoia issues. That is not my IP address and I don't even use a commercial ISP! So, if you can trace that IP to me with your DOS, or whatever you are babbling about, you are truly talented. I have no clue what your real name is (how the hell would I?), nor do I have the time or desire to know anything about you. That you have managed to get so many people pissed at your behavior on just this website, is your issue, not mine. You can make accusations until you are blue in the face, but as most people remember on here, you are the one who has made all these strange threats of legal attacks or getting your government or corporate buddies to hunt people down Wikipedia. It looks like you are resorting to threats on here yet again, and THAT is what must and will be reported. Why don't you, for just once, stop implying all your foes on here are evil, and just discuss the issue with regard to this TOPIC. Lar above mentioned that there is no reason not to use multiple names as is currently used in the pages. I can't figure out why you think you are going to 'win' something on here by pushing out the other valid terms. So you can both quit the revert wars, and just use an image that has the provincial and regional names on it, and then go your own ways. I haven't been on Wikipedia now for months, and coming on here for a couple days makes me remember why. Icsunonove (talk) 21:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Stop it, Icsunonove. Please. You and I communicated quite a bit via email when you were under the username of Taalo. Thus, you (of few people before) know my name. There weren't any threats made. There are facts. Trust me on this one.
You've caught yourself in a deep trap, Icsunonove. You and I communicated quite a bit offline when you were under the username of Taalo. Funny how you forget that the history is captured here. At one point you even added an entry to my userpage [5], and you later updated it when you changed your username [6]. Remember now? If you want I will pull the emails and present them too, but the above proof should suffice. Rarelibra (talk) 21:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Rarelibra, that is absolutely false. I swear to you and anyone else on here that we've never exchanged e-mails in real-life or through Wikipedia. The only e-mail I've ever received from you was through the Wikipedia e-mail service; that was anonymous, and I certainly did not reply. I have no clue what your real name is. I can't believe that you delete all your e-mails... please how me a single e-mail where either of us have corresponded using our real names? Man, it is just unbelievable the direction you take things on here. Listen, I don't care about your threats or your self-perceived facts, you've made all these before. You know what, I honestly hope you can deal with these anger issues, I do hope you have a safe trip to wherever you are being deployed, and that you somehow once and for all realize that we are not all evil on here because we advocated for these bilingual compromises. You never seem to realize that people on "our" side of the argument could have pushed only for Trentino-Alto Adige and Province of Bolzano, but we didn't. Yet the other side pushes only for South Tyrol. Think about that, will you? You really need to stop threatening people on here with WP:LEGAL or that you are going to hunt them down. Think about what you do to the Wikipedia environment by saying these things on here. You've done this to more than just me on two occasions now. Icsunonove (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
All I am going to say is I am quite surprised that you continue down the path of denial. I don't care about your words, insults, or otherwise. We really are here to find a solution - one that you have mentioned above and I responded positively to. All of the words in between (your judgments and insults about anger issues, etc) do nothing to contribute to a positive atmosphere as well. So stop dictating to me, I will stop things with you, and let us carry on with a solution, yes? Rarelibra (talk) 22:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Dude, I'm fine with focusing on just getting a solution about this map and everything else on this topic for that matter (future debates, etc.). That is why I even bothered to take the time to post above. You were the one who came on here with this huge post making all these accusations. You say I e-mailed you, I know your name, and we've had e-mail correspondence off-line -- but you know that just isn't true. If I've had some really bad case of amnesia, and you can show me these e-mail threads we've exchanged, then I'll accept you accusing me of denying things. But, come on now. Icsunonove (talk) 23:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I cannot stress enough a simple pointer to when you even added an entry to my userpage [7], and you later updated it when you changed your username [8]. This, in of itself, may not qualify substantial to some - but is a strong indicator. Nevertheless, as we have said, let us move on, yes? As we are getting nowhere attempting to stand each other's ground. Right? Rarelibra (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to say... :-) A dozen users know I changed my username. I'm not even sure what this is a "strong indicator" of. o_O But, yes, lets move on, again. :) I'm going offline now for the weekend, I'll try to see how things are going with regard to this debate sometime next week. I'll wait for you to post our e-mail threads too. just kidding! :) I'll state again that I don't think any editor on here needs to be banned; they all contribute a lot to Wikipedia. My idea for the way forward is simple: 1) maps with both the provincial (Bolzano-Bozen) and regional (Alto Adige-South Tyrol) names, per the Province of Bolzano-Bozen page. Same for Trento and Trentino. Name the file something that also causes no friction or bad feelings. Call it provinces-of-trento-and-bolzano-bozen-bulsan-alto-adige-south-tyrol provinces.png. Whatever! Then, lets agree that before we get into these childish fights or month-long revert wars, we cool down and ask someone like Lar to mediate. He is actually pretty fun when he points out the stupid arguments we make. Who knows, one day we may all be friends again, even with Gryf, and finally have our Forsts. Doubt it, but anyway! hah. Have a good weekend everyone. Icsunonove (talk) 00:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Closing XfDs that you have voted on.[edit]

Can/should a user who has voted on an XfD close the XfD or would that represent a conflict of interest? I'm asking here because I do non-admin closures on AfDs and am thinking that maybe I shouldn't vote on them if I'm going to close them (provided it's a keep of course). I ask here because (hopefully) some admins will know the answer. Thanks and happy editing! Foxy Loxy Pounce! 08:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I would definitely recommend that a user not close any XFD in which he has participated, with the possible exception of where he is closing based on an almost-unanimous decision which is against his own point of view. Goes double for non-admins. Stifle (talk) 08:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Non-admin closures says "Non-admin closure is not appropriate when the non-admin ... expressed an opinion in the deletion debate." -- Suntag 09:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
It's fine to close an XfD you participated in if the nominator has withdrawn and there are no extant delete !votes, or if the page has been speedy deleted. the skomorokh 09:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Other than that, no one, admin or otherwise, should close a debate/rfa/xfd/etc they participated in. RlevseTalk 18:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Another quick question[edit]

Also, would it be alright if I started to close AfDs (unanimous or very close) from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 October 13 now? Foxy Loxy Pounce! 09:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

See WP:OAFD for debates that have been open long enough to close. the skomorokh 09:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I've seen users close pages before 5 days is up (usually late in day 4), is this alright? E.g. this AfD was closed on the 16th at 3:28 (UTC), when it was opened on the 12th at 22:46 (UTC), making it listed for roughly 3 days and 5 hours (I think). Foxy Loxy Pounce! 11:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Strictly speaking that close was naughty, but Z-man is an admin and it did look like a snowclose. Early closing may be appropriate in the case of snow, nominations withdrawn, XfD's opened very soon after a previous XfD on the same page, speedy deletions and bad faith/banner user nominations, but really there is no deadline and non-admins such as yourself are best advised to leave things run for the full period as early closes often lead to unnecessary drama. the skomorokh 11:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Non-administrators should wait the whole five days until closing, or else I or someone else will likely rollback the close. Daniel (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Wurzelbacher[edit]

Please full protect this page. Numerous editors are inserting material that is attacking this person. Primarily editors are trying to link him to the Keating Five scandal because he has the last name as one involved. Even though there is no proof at this time that he is related or has anything to do with this scandal. Additionally, people are inserting his tax problems into his bio which have no relevance to the article. Arzel (talk) 22:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:RPP, please. I'm not taking this as I have very strong political views and do not want to have them displayed on Wikipedia. -Jéské Couriano (v^_^v) 22:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, wasn't the AfD for Joe the plumber closed as redirect due to WP:BLP1E? This seems to be a recreation of the same material. Of course WP:CCC. VG 23:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
You missed the second AFD where the brilliant close was to keep it temporarily.[9]--Cube lurker (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I see the new policy is to keep articles around until "the spotlight has moved to another political talking point". My mistake. VG 23:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I personally love the closing admin's statement: "While yes, his article violates the BLP policy, there is no deadline and exception can be made". Really? We make exceptions for the BLP policy? All my respect goes to whichever admin deletes this article. - auburnpilot talk 23:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm just as little impressed with the close on the AFD, but I think rather then wheel war and cause havoc, the best thing to do is get it to DRV, which I've already done. SirFozzie (talk) 01:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

7 (number) - unable to revert to last good?[edit]

Hi folks, not sure if this is just my end, but I can't seem to revert to the revision of 7 (number) which doesn't have "OVER 9000" spewed all over it. The rev I want to get to is here; I've tried "undo", "edit" and even manually copy/pasting. What am I doing wrong? Thanks. SMC (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The undo buttons aren't going to work. I've reverted back to the last good edit. —kurykh 01:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Request to remove page from blacklist to create redirect[edit]

Not a big deal, but when attempting to create a redirect from John Henderson McConnell to John H. McConnell, I found that the former page was blacklisted. Since this is his full name, I believe it could be useful as a redirect because he is sometimes referred to by his full name to distinguish, and I have yet to find any other such uses with notability for Wikipedia, I am requesting that it be removed from the blacklist for the purpose of creating this redirect. Thank you. – Alex43223 T | C | E 05:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In the future, you want WP:RFUP for requests like these. However, I see no protection currently in place, and nothing in the page logs... am I missing something? Tan | 39 05:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to match either the local or global blacklists, either. What exactly is the error message you get when you try to create it? --Carnildo (talk) 06:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, interestingly enough, I am no longer getting an error message. The one I was getting in a red box above the edit field told me to post here to "request removal from the blacklist", which it was on. Oh well, I got it done. Thanks for the help! – Alex43223 T | C | E 06:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If it mentions "blacklist", it'll be the title blacklist or possibly the spam blacklist. If it continues to be an issue, post again with the full exact message. Stifle (talk) 09:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Troubling edit[edit]

Resolved

Do we ever get concerned when someone writes something like this? I hate to think it's an actual threat, and it's probably just a joke edit, but maybe it's better to find out what's going on. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 06:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:SUICIDE recommends action, although it's not a policy. Tan | 39 06:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
It says that admins should handle this. I'm a health-care professional, and we have a policy that every threat should be taken seriously. Someone needs to handle this. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 06:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Submitting checkuser request. Tan | 39 06:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
See request here. Tan | 39 06:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Copy of my post to the RFCU case:  Confirmed this user is editing as an IP and as the named user. Both IP and named user edits are very child like and even several vandalism in nature. I can tell what city this seems to be coming from but did not find enough to contact any authority about. In my personal opinion, this is some kid fooling around. I've even blocked the named account as a vandal only account. I want to say the users reporting this to AN and RFCU did the right thing.RlevseTalk 13:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)...PS someone already blocked indef for vandalism. Blocked IP for a week.RlevseTalk 13:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Am I banned?[edit]

I've used accounts in the past that have got blocked, but I don't know if that constitutes a WP:BAN. You don't need to revert my edits or try to censor what I say; I'm not dangerous.--BlockDropper (talk) 13:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably, What were your previous accounts? Spartaz Humbug! 13:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, that doesn't really matter. The problem is that the personal temptation to edit Wikipedia when I'm bored is still there, and I will still do it, albeit not necessarily in a particularly helpful way. If you, the administrators, stopped with your censorship and totalitarianism, then this place might be fun to edit.--BlockDropper (talk) 13:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
If you want to vandalise, edit Encyclopedia Dramatica - it's vandal-city. Wikipedia, on the other hand, is an encyclopedia Dendodge|TalkContribs 13:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Indef'ed. And in less than one minute after I blocked, he requested unblock. seicer | talk | contribs 13:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone fix this[edit]

Resolved: all fixed by various edit-conflicting admins. BencherliteTalk 16:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

User moved user talk page to article space talk page. -- Suntag 16:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

And AFD closed as a WP:CSD#A7. --Rodhullandemu 16:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Suntag 16:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Broken AFD entry at Sanford_Holst[edit]

Resolved: OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I should know how to fix this but I don't. I used Twinkle by the way. The deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sanford Holst is showing up as a red link, and when you look at the template via edit it says 'keep'. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 16:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's actually fairly common. It's not a problem with Twinkle or how you did anything. Sometimes it just takes a while for the MediaWiki software to catch up and realize that the AFD discussion page has actually been created and display it as a bluelink instead of a redlink. Purging the cache of the page with the AFD template on it fixes the problem too. If you'll look at Sanford Holst now you'll see that nobody has edited the article, but the discussion page is now a bluelink. Heh, unless I'm misunderstanding your problem. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 17:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Or just press the Refresh button in the browser. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
It was actually someone else who mentioned it. Thanks for the explanations. Doug Weller (talk) 19:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

please update SVG file[edit]

I made an improved version of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SVG.svg (visually almost the same, details neater now, file size down a lot, source bit more readable)

I temporarily put it at http://steltenpower.com/svg.svg (careful with case/caps) Please tell me at svg@steltenpower.com when you fixed it.


Wouldn't it be a lot easier if the world could just edit the SVG source code right on Wikipedia? Of course not allowing the edit if it's not valid SVG.


Thank you for your effort to improve Wikipedia. That image is hosted at Wikipedia Commons, their administrators' noticeboard is here. I also opened your image and at least in my browser (Firefox 3) the source now runs off the background page, which I would not consider to be an improvement. Thanks again for your interest and effort.  ★  Bigr Tex 19:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I get the same thing, but it looks like a simple font issue. Debugging images is a bit off-topic for the admin noticeboard, I realize, but I believe steltenpower could fix it by converting the text to a path (something you need to do to most SVGs when you put them on the Web). rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, either convert text to paths or use the MediaWiki default, Bitstream Vera Sans. The latter is better when the look of the text is not so important as the information it conveys. Image:NYCS map A.svg is an example of this; it's easier to change text that way. --NE2 05:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Star Trek (film)[edit]

BillCJ (talk · contribs) left a really uncivil comment on the page accusing me of ownership with the article after working around the clock since, well September really, to clean-up cites and expanding in line with various good film articles, released and unreleased. Bill clearly doesn't want to discuss this any further, and apart from this he seems like a great editor (look at all those Barnstars), so I'm just concerned about him suddenly going on the warpath with the usual "fan" insult and brazen rudeness. Should I have just undid his comment which had nothing to do with improving the article regardless of his good past form? Alientraveller (talk) 23:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Per above, "These pages are not the place to raise disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour." BillCJ indicated that he is de-watching the article and the talk page and won't respond to comments about it. While probably uncivil, I think you should just archive the discussion and let it go, but I'll notify him anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, per this, I think we are done. Mark as resolved and move on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
In otherwords, no Vulcan nerve pinch required. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Unblock problems[edit]

please update SVG file[edit]

I made an improved version of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SVG.svg (visually almost the same, details neater now, file size down a lot, source bit more readable)

I temporarily put it at http://steltenpower.com/svg.svg (careful with case/caps) Please tell me at svg@steltenpower.com when you fixed it.


Wouldn't it be a lot easier if the world could just edit the SVG source code right on Wikipedia? Of course not allowing the edit if it's not valid SVG.


Thank you for your effort to improve Wikipedia. That image is hosted at Wikipedia Commons, their administrators' noticeboard is here. I also opened your image and at least in my browser (Firefox 3) the source now runs off the background page, which I would not consider to be an improvement. Thanks again for your interest and effort.  ★  Bigr Tex 19:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I get the same thing, but it looks like a simple font issue. Debugging images is a bit off-topic for the admin noticeboard, I realize, but I believe steltenpower could fix it by converting the text to a path (something you need to do to most SVGs when you put them on the Web). rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, either convert text to paths or use the MediaWiki default, Bitstream Vera Sans. The latter is better when the look of the text is not so important as the information it conveys. Image:NYCS map A.svg is an example of this; it's easier to change text that way. --NE2 05:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Star Trek (film)[edit]

BillCJ (talk · contribs) left a really uncivil comment on the page accusing me of ownership with the article after working around the clock since, well September really, to clean-up cites and expanding in line with various good film articles, released and unreleased. Bill clearly doesn't want to discuss this any further, and apart from this he seems like a great editor (look at all those Barnstars), so I'm just concerned about him suddenly going on the warpath with the usual "fan" insult and brazen rudeness. Should I have just undid his comment which had nothing to do with improving the article regardless of his good past form? Alientraveller (talk) 23:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Per above, "These pages are not the place to raise disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour." BillCJ indicated that he is de-watching the article and the talk page and won't respond to comments about it. While probably uncivil, I think you should just archive the discussion and let it go, but I'll notify him anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, per this, I think we are done. Mark as resolved and move on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
In otherwords, no Vulcan nerve pinch required. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Unblock problems[edit]