Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive269

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Request for review of closure at AN/I[edit]

I request a review of the closing of WP:ANI#Conduct_of_J_Doug_McLean.

The closing editor suggested a content RfC as a way to deal with "insults". I made no complaint of insults.

They said they had looked at "a number of diffs", and are clearly not fully aware of the context of this conduct, which has persisted over many months.

I wrote more details and attempted to discuss the matter with the closing editor at User_talk:Drmies#ANI_closure. They sent me straight here without comment and without answering any of my questions. Please will another admin review this? Burninthruthesky (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC); edited 15:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

  • In other news, I have stopped beating my wife. Drmies (talk) 17:23, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
You seem to have taken offence at my underlining. I wasn't trying to shout, merely to abide by WP:REDACT. Burninthruthesky (talk) 18:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Well spotted. I did not answer any of your questions because they were loaded, and I don't like answering those. My thanks to Robert McClenon, who clearly has more patience and better phrasing than I do. Drmies (talk) 19:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry. I have tried to reword my questions in a way that doesn't presume a particular answer. I would appreciate answers from either of you. Burninthruthesky (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure in the absence of a stronger explanation by the original poster (OP) of why the closure was incorrect. What exactly anyway is the OP requesting? The issue has to do with postings to Talk: Lift (force), which have been lengthy and tedious. The OP did not request any specific administrative remedy, such as a block or a topic ban, that could have been imposed at WP:ANI. The OP and one other editor did propose a voluntary ban on postings by the subject author to the talk page, but a voluntary ban is just that, voluntary. The OP then did propose to implement the voluntary ban by consensus, but, in the absence of consent by the subject author, there can't be a voluntary ban. They didn't propose a formal topic ban. If a formal topic ban had been proposed, I would agree that it should have been discussed, rather than closing the thread. The closer stated that this appeared to be a content dispute, and proposed that a Request for Comments (RFC) (or RFCs) be used. Maybe the closer could have waited another day or two before closing the thread, but I think that the closure was not "premature" and was within the closer's judgment. The reference to insults seems to have been misunderstood, which was that an admin could be asked to keep an eye on the RFC, and hat any irrelevant comments, and hat any insults, possibly blocking the insulter. It wasn't clear that the OP was asking for any feasible administrative remedy, and it isn't clear that the OP is asking for a specific feasible administrative remedy now. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for a sensible response. I appreciate the difficulty of closing a request for a voluntary ban without explicit consent from the editor concerned. Personally I would have left it open and resumed discussion if the subject continued editing without accounting for his conduct. Another editor wanted "closure" which was, quite reasonably, interpreted as a request to close the discussion. I would have preferred acceptance by the subject, but he didn't respond.
The problem I have with the close as it stands is the message it sends that "none of them cross any kind of civility boundary". Is misrepresenting the opinions of other editors really allowed? Is it ok to persist for months on end repeating the same argument, and dismissing out of hand any rebuttals, often by usingmake strawman arguments? Burninthruthesky (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC); edited 20:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I've been dealing with this problem for months, and when I finally asked for help from the administrators, not one of them joined the discussion. Eventually one came along to close it, saying there was no problem. I questioned the grounds for that closure and the only response I've had from that admin is that they don't like the way I've worded my questions. There has been no substantive response to the factual questions I have asked regarding how this decision was made. I have not been to these admin noticeboards before this incident, because I've never needed to. I came here to ask for help from the community and at the moment I don't feel I'm getting very much at all. A hostile environment is bad for editor retention. Please will you give me some assistance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burninthruthesky (talkcontribs) 21:23, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The original poster explicitly requested closure: "I agree it would be better for all concerned to have closure on this." So an admin took his request at his word and provided closure. It isn't the admin's fault that he believed that the original poster wanted closure. Maybe the original poster actually wanted closure in a way that would have been deeply unfair, imposing a so-called voluntary topic ban that wasn't voluntary, and without community discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your responses. Looking again at WP:CLOSE, I see it does use the term "closure". Personally I think closure would have been better achieved if the subject had responded, but WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. Even some input from someone not involved in the discussion would have been helpful. To clarify, I'm not saying the decision to close the discussion was wrong. My problem is that the closing comments were made without consideration of important context. Just to take one example: unless I am mistaken, the comment I mentioned on 31 January misrepresented my views and the views of another editor. If I did make the assertion I am claimed to have made, I ask for a diff of where I made it. Burninthruthesky (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
The original poster is contradicting himself as to what he was asking for. He says that he finally asked for help from the administrators. He also says that he came here to ask for help from the community. Which? Was he asking for administrator assistance using administrator tools, or was he asking for advice from experienced editors? WP:ANI is the place to ask for administrator assistance, such as a block or a topic-ban. He didn't get an administrator reply until he asked for closure, probably because he didn't make a case that a block or a formal topic-ban was warranted. If he had wanted advice from experienced editors, which would have been reasonable to ask, he could have gone to the WP:Help Desk. I know that, at the Help Desk, I would have advised the use of a dispute resolution procedure, such as a Request for Comments. He got that advice in addition to closure. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Your claim that I'm contradicting myself seems a little disingenuous. WP:ADMINS "should be a part of the community like other editors." WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE provides ANI as the only venue for discussing user conduct issues and suggests reported users "may be warned by an administrator". I asked for "any steps necessary to protect the community" because my message is supposed to be neutral and I wanted the evidence to speak for itself. I felt I was prohibited from discussing the matter with other users or on the helpdesk because of WP:ASPERSIONS. In the ANI discussion, I presented a short summary of the evidence. I brought more evidence as the discussion progressed, but it dried up. No administrator attempted to discuss the matter with me or seek clarification. The discussion of evidence with administrators didn't start until after the discussion had closed. This seems the wrong way round. The advice that I seek dispute resolution instead of going to AN/I appears to contradict the cited policy, which says conduct issues should be brought to AN/I. I understand the procedures for dealing with content specifically exclude discussion of conduct. For example, WP:DRN says, "Please refrain from discussing editorial conduct, and remember this noticeboard is for content disputes only." WP:FOC recommends not bringing up conduct during content disputes. I patiently waited until the main content dispute was settled before bringing up conduct (which by that point spanned several users and content issues). Then I'm told it looks like a content dispute. Is this maze of contradictory instructions Wikipedia's way of saying we don't care about user conduct? Burninthruthesky (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
The original poster says that a hostile environment is bad for editor retention. That is true in the abstract but irrelevant. WP:ANI is typically a hostile place, because it is where administrative actions, such as blocks and topic-bans, which by their nature are controversial, are discussed. As one other editor noted, at Talk: Lift (force), there is one editor who is verbose and pedantic, the subject, and another editor who is sometimes uncivil, the original poster, so that the original poster shouldn't be complaining about hostility. The OP made a controversial request, a topic-ban under the disguise of a voluntary ban, then requested quick closure, and got quick closure, and now is unhappy. You don't always get what you want. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Your comment "another editor who is sometimes uncivil, the original poster" misrepresents what was said. That editor did not name the person he felt was uncivil and didn't take up my invitation to clarify. Please strike that.
I did not request "a topic ban under under the disguise of a voluntary ban, then requested quick closure, and got quick closure". The suggestion of a voluntary ban and desire for "closure" were both made by Steelpillow and I agreed. As I said, I haven't been to these boards before and I'm not entirely familiar with the available processes. The only reason I didn't ask for a formal topic ban was because I wasn't sure it would be appropriate (or necessary) in the absence of any activity by the subject.
When I mentioned a hostile environment, I was actually referring to the original discussion which I escalated, and for which don't feel I've received much support from the community. Frankly I'm not finding this discussion much better. Burninthruthesky (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC); edited 10:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Endorse closure. Doug McLean has demonstrably cooled down. Even the interminable content dispute was resolved amicably in the end. While I deeply sympathise with the struggles that Burninthruthesky has suffered and at one time things did need damping down, that has now happened. Several community members (myself included) with enough knowledge of both the subject and dealing with disputes eventually took a hand in that. I doubt that J Doug McLean had been relishing the heat and duration either. He is a good deal more gentlemanly than many a contentious editor. This is a cold case now and I no longer think that any kind of admin action would achieve a useful purpose. So no, I do not wish to support re-opening a discussion that has been overtaken by events. I am content with the decision to move on and would thank the closing editor. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree there's little benefit in reopening the discussion. That's why I didn't push for a compulsory ban. My only concern is that an official finding, that the conduct we experienced was acceptable, might be taken as licence to continue with similar tactics in future. Burninthruthesky (talk) 11:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
The conduct evidenced was judged not to be an ANI issue, which is a slightly different thing from being acceptable. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. Trust me, I sympathize with the problem, but ANI is not the way out of that--and it was not clear to me what was being asked for in the first place. "J Doug McLean should use fewer words" isn't really an adminny thing to say; as far as I could tell, this was still in a stage that editors could handle on the talk page, and I tried to indicate ways in which they could proceed. Drmies (talk) 20:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I accept that there's no point in discussing any further the past conduct of a user who clearly got the message and is currently absent. I sincerely hope he will decide to return. Please close this discussion. Burninthruthesky (talk) 08:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I also made some general comments on relevant policy which are now archived here. Burninthruthesky (talk) 18:55, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Since there appears to be no agreement between myself and involved admins, I would like to request closure by an uninvolved admin. Burninthruthesky (talk) 08:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Closure of BLPN discussion: Should Wikipedia publish the name of the man who Emma Sulkowicz alleges raped her?[edit]

Resolved by Beeblebrox. Nyttend (talk) 15:46, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could an uninvolved admin please take a look at this BLPN discussion regarding whether or not to include the name of the man who Emma Sulkowicz alleges raped her on her wiki page. It would really help to have a decision on this (if there is indeed a consensus among the discussion participants) because the Emma Sulkowicz page has been protected as a result of edit warring to add this name, but the page protection ends tomorrow. Having a decision one way or the other might help avoid edit warring and the page being locked down again.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indef-block appeal for Ratel[edit]

Opened four days ago, with no edits for 22 hours, so I believe it's time to close. Consensus is to unblock Ratel/Jabba the Hot, on the obvious condition that the user sticks to one account from now on. He will be held to his voluntary TBAN from Aspartame, Matt Drudge, David Copperfield, and all climate change articles. Also to his voluntary probation that allows uninvolved admins to TBAN him from any future BLP around which issues arise. I will unblock one of the accounts as soon as the user replies to my question as to which account they prefer to use going forward. Bishonen | talk 14:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A similar situation was discussed very recently on this very board (see here), and the user makes a reasonable case, so I am happy to submit it for community review. Ratel was blocked in 2010 for using socks to influence a !vote/discussion. They have had some socking issues for some time following that. Late in 2012, they started editing with Jabba the Hot, and edited using that account until a few days ago, when it was "discovered" they were Ratel's "clean-start". The new account's editing does not appear to have been problematic in and of itself. While a "sneaky clean start" is generally not acceptable procedure, we have what appears to be a former problem user who managed to come back and edit constructively for years, before being found out and blocked for old offenses. I think it would be reasonable to unblock Ratel (or their new account, Jabba the Hot) with a condition that they only ever stick to a single account (like they've been doing since 2012), and see how things go. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  18:17, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Here is the text of their appeal, for those without UTRS access

I was initially blocked in May 2010 with reason "Abusing multiple accounts to feign consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Climate change denial (4th nomination). Basically, I voted twice not to delete the article on "Climate change denial", using the two accounts I had at the time. The vote was not even close, carried easily, so I had no logical reason for doing it. As I explained at the time, I was high as a kite on opioid pain meds (after a renal stent procedure), so that's the only reason I can think of for doing something so out of character, which was also unnecessary and pointless (as I said, the vote was not even close).

But I am a good editor (other than the one mistake) and a lifelong block seems extremely harsh.

Yes, I did have multiple accounts, but I had them because a couple of editors started following me from article to article, reverting my edits for sport. I never used the accounts specifically to create false consensus, ever (other than the one time).

Despite being blocked, I continued to edit constructively under another account, "Jabba the Hot", but now that has been blocked too based on the fact that I am editing some of the same articles as Ratel.

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

One mistake 5 years ago. I also have had "sockpuppets" (other accounts I created to edit specific articles). Why sockpuppets? Unfortunately, there are a few users at WP who /do/ wikistalk, and I created these other accounts to avoid them pursuing me around the project. I'm not sure how else to handle this problem. My complaints about wikistalking to an admin at the time were ignored, so I created more accounts to avoid the stalker. I now think the only way to avoid a wikistalker is to assiduously avoid disagreements with other editors, which is very difficult. I'm open to suggestions on this.

Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?

Yes. My edits are not negative to the project. I've created many articles and improved many others. I helped develop a Firefox add-on called Cite4Wiki (since taken over by Scott McCandlish). In future, I'll strenuously attempt not to get into disputes with other editors (thus minimizing the creation of wikistalkers), I'll never use multiple accounts to feign consensus, and I'll be on my best behavior. If there are any other undertakings the Project requires of me, I'll give Account links: User Page User Talk Page Block Log Find block Contribs Unblock Request timestamp: 2015-02-11 02:48:57 Status: ON_HOLD Blocking Admin: jpgordon User talk Page Email User Reserved by: Salvidrim User Page User talk Page Email User Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

I was initially blocked in May 2010 with reason "Abusing multiple accounts to feign consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Climate change denial (4th nomination). Basically, I voted twice not to delete the article on "Climate change denial", using the two accounts I had at the time. The vote was not even close, carried easily, so I had no logical reason for doing it. As I explained at the time, I was high as a kite on opioid pain meds (after a renal stent procedure), so that's the only reason I can think of for doing something so out of character, which was also unnecessary and pointless (as I said, the vote was not even close).

But I am a good editor (other than the one mistake) and a lifelong block seems extremely harsh.

Yes, I did have multiple accounts, but I had them because a couple of editors started following me from article to article, reverting my edits for sport. I never used the accounts specifically to create false consensus, ever (other than the one time).

Despite being blocked, I continued to edit constructively under another account, "Jabba the Hot", but now that has been blocked too based on the fact that I am editing some of the same articles as Ratel.

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?
(this section was originally missing from this thread due to Salvidrim's error, added 00:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC))

Various articles on euthanasia, some articles on Australian plants, a few edits to articles on metals. I generally do not have problems with other editors. I'll keep away from the following articles: Aspartame (and associated articles), all climate change articles (too much drama), the Matt Drudge article (bunfight with user Collect), and the David Copperfield article (his lawyers monitor every word).

— Ratel, UTRS appeal #13154
  • Support unblock with one-account condition - I hesitate to say "as proposer" since the UTRS appeal comes from the user themselves, but I do support unblocking this user for reasons laid out in my opening text. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  18:17, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. If he's been editing constructively for a couple of years now, it's probably time to give him another shot. We've given second (and third, and fourth, and nth) chances to people who have done far worse. Hell, we have people who have been caught in far more abusive forms of sockpuppetry and were never even indefinitely blocked. Personally I like the username "Jabba the Hot" better than "Ratel", but as long as he uses one account I guess it doesn't matter. MastCell Talk 18:32, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
So you think it is constructive to evade several times blocks due sockpuppetry and breach your own word promising you won't ever use sockpuppets to evade blocks or whatever? --ClaudioSantos¿? 17:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • He mentions other accounts. Normally when considering this type of request a full, vountary listing of all sock accounts is a prerequisite. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've asked if they would please provide said information, but from the SPIs, this list seems comprehensive enough. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  18:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Beeblebrox: Their reply seems consistent with the list of tagged accounts: "Hi Salvidrim That I can remember ... Unit 5 AllYrBaseRbelongUs Medic58 TickleMeister OzOke Hill-Mitchelson RxWatch Jabbsworth Jabba the Hot I did not keep track of the accounts, so that list is the best I can come up with. Thanks! Gerry (Ratel)". ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  00:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock. Agreed. Looks to be editing constructively. Why not? The problematic behavior is very stale. Let's let bygones be bygones. HiDrNick! 18:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Ratel was blocked due sockpuppetry, then appealed and promised not to ever use sockpuppets again, then he came and used sockpuppets so he was blocked again. Now he use again a new sockjpuppet to evade his block due sockpuppetry and is caught and blocked again, so now comes to appeal again, and you think the behavior is stale? am I missing something?--ClaudioSantos¿? 17:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, quite. The last instance of objectionable sockpuppetry that has been documented was in February 2011. That was four years ago. But since you've commented several times on the SPI page, you must already know that. 18 months later, the user creates a new account, and uses it to do some constructive editing without incident. Don't you think it's best to just let this one go? HiDrNick! 19:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

─────────────────────────I will paste here part of a comment I did to another user since I think it is also a good answer for your comment: Let me summarize here what the last admin discovered and stated on 2012: Ratel but using the sockpuppet Jabbsworth plead to ARBCOM to be unblocked promising he will never use sockpuppets and openly mentioned to ARBCOM three sockpuppets (RxWatch, OzOke, and Hill-Mitchelson) he was using. On 2012 admin User:Elen of the Roads noticed that Jabssworth never mentioned but hid to ARBCOM that he was also Ratel, and he never mentioned but also hid that he was Ticklemeister. User:Elen of the Roads also discovered and noticed that he was also using another sockpuppet (Medic58), that he also kept hid during his last and all the previous SPI and also hid it to ARBCOM. So he was clearly breaching his promises to ARBCOM, deceiving them and the users, plus dishonoring his own words. That was the kind of disruptive behaviour that was sanctioned by User:Elen of the Roads by re-establishing the block that ARBCOM had forgiven to Jabssworth. Now since 2013 up to now, Ratel using JabbaTheHot evaded that last block, breaks his promises, he is caught and blocked again some days ago and you say that is a clean start, that he is not being distruptive and therefore he deserves to be unblocked again? I don't find constructive to deceive users, solely the constant evation of blocks and hidding sockpuppets is reprehensible butplease note the very first reason I suspected Jabba the Hot being a sockpuppet of Ratel was: exactly as Ratel and his sockpuppets did: he was making nasty comments on my alleged grammar and suggesting to admins that I should be not allowed to edit on english wikipedia; a disruptive conduct for which he was in the past sanctioned, a kind of personal attacks he also used against other users. So I just see a repetition of promises to game the system. --ClaudioSantos¿? 19:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose Relentless and persistent violator of WP:BLP using multiple socks for the purpose. User:Collect/BLP shows some of his positions about BLPs and I hesitate to think about what would happen should he be loosed on them. He has used on the order of a dozen socks including but not limited to:
Unit 5, TickleMeister, AllYrBaseRbelongUs, Rxwatch, OzOke, Hill-Mitchelson, Medic58, Jabbsworth, Jabba the Hot, and likely a few more, and not counting IP addresses. .
Each was disruptive, with the latest one being less than a month ago.
Such quotes as So he's allowed to have a family and we are not allowed to add that fact to the encyclopedia because he would prefer people not to know about it? Is that your position?, UNDUE applies mainly to viewpoints, not facts. If a verifiable and sourced statement is given undue weight, it can be shortened, not excluded. And since most of the negative details about X have already been excluded (on specious grounds, like questioning the reliability of TMZ) or pared back to a sentence or two, I don't see how you could go further without actually censoring wikipedia., My motivations are immaterial, but if you have to know, I delight in adding frank and full details of misbehaviours to pages on so-called "celebs", many of whom are absolute scoundrels or hypocrites, or worse, under the glossy veneer. But I welcome people like Y, who are on the subject's payroll or close friends with the subject, as long as they add properly sourced puffery to the page. What puzzles me is that there seems to be some unspoken sentiment among a lot of wikipedia editors that no matter what the celeb does in real life, we need to hide it unless the facts were reported by Moses on the tablets brought down from Mount Sinai. Wake up, my fellow editors! We are not paid to shield these people from the consequences of their own misdeeds. Free your heads from the American celeb-worship cargo cult religion. and on and on are sufficient to keep this perennial WP:BLP violator off still. Collect (talk) 18:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • For the sake of clarity, please provide diffs, and note whether they are years old or recent. I have (admittedly briefly) reviewed Jabba the Hot's recent contributions and found no immediatly apparent issues, but I may very well have missed something. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  18:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • If there are BLP concerns, please present the relevant diffs, since such concerns (if substantiated) would change my opinion. (As an aside, User:Collect/BLP is a very odd page, and clearly violates WP:UP#POLEMIC). MastCell Talk 19:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • He has had and abused a significant number of accounts as recently as January, and I see no reason for a person series of statement contrary to WP:BLP to be let into the project. Meanwhile I had several admins examine the BLP page and state that it was absolutely proper. That MastCell finds otherwise seems interesting. Diffs? Try [1] for one of his typical edits on a BLP. [2] another. Several hundred, but I rather thought his comments on how he views BLP are fairly clear. Collect (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Collect (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • All of these diffs date from 2010 and the "recent socking" is the undeclared clean-start since 2012, which Ratel has all admitted openly. Do you have evidence of recent BLP violations or of other socking after Sept. 2012? Or is the entirety of your point that the editor should remain blocked for his 2010 behaviour (which would be a perfectly valid reasoning, mind you)? ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  19:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • See also: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive139 Gwen Gale? She was blocked many, many times before herself, and was even restricted by ArbCom. To use Jimbo's term, Gwen has verified that she has a poisonous personality. You'll note that she quickly unblocked me too, and I have never contravened BLP again. And this Herman Cain edit hardly violates BLP, from my reading, especially if shortened. Jabbsworth 12:50, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Jabbsworth wrote an article for the Wiki "sourcewatch" -- then used his own article as a source I wonder, does this comment fall under "off-wiki harrassment" or OUTING? I merely noted that Matt Drudge page at SourceWatch is a repository for the data for future editors to use. Your obsessive need to attack me over this shows that your personal animus towards me far exceeds your interest in this material for the encyclopedia. Jabbsworth 01:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC) .
The page which he wrote at sourcewatch (which he quoted exactly, making it easy to find for sure) is [3] where you see the sort of writing done there: (deleted example) which, I suggest is not BLP compliant by a mile. That article is now noted as having been written by "Scribe". If you are really set on reinstating this person who disagrees with WP:BLP I suggest you topic ban him from all BLP articles. Else I am farily sure that he will use his old style :( Collect (talk) 19:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the additional information. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  20:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The two actual diffs provided by Collect ([4], [5]) do not show WP:BLP violations. They describe a well-documented allegation against a public figure. WP:WELLKNOWN states: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. These edits by Ratel meet those criteria and are compliant with BLP. I'm open to reviewing additional diffs, but if these are exemplary of Collect's concerns then I don't think they're substantive.
    Collect also links to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive139, by which I think he has in mind this thread. I don't see anything in that thread to suggest that Ratel was violating WP:BLP in any way, so I'm a bit mystified by its inclusion as evidence here.
    As for SourceWatch, I cannot verify that the material in question was written by Ratel (and with Collect, I've come to believe it's important to trust-but-verify). Assuming that Ratel did in fact contribute to the SourceWatch article, I'm not sure of the relevance to Wikipedia—because Collect has, again, provided no relevant diffs. At the risk of sounding annoyed, could you please provide diffs when you quote someone? That's a very basic expectation here, and when Collect presents SourceWatch diffs as evidence of violating a Wikipedia policy then I start to worry that we're victims of a bait-and-switch. Collect, which specific edits to Drudge's Wikipedia biography are of concern? MastCell Talk 22:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I had originally failed to include a very important paragraph of their UTRS appeal, in which the user agrees to "keep away from the following articles: Aspartame (and associated articles), all climate change articles (too much drama), the Matt Drudge article (bunfight with user Collect), and the David Copperfield article (his lawyers monitor every word)." (emphasis mine). This should be sufficient to assuage almost the entirety of Collect's concerns. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  00:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock - A good contributor who went astray nearly five years ago, but who has since improved the encyclopedia, deserves a second chance.- MrX 20:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) Support on the condition that the user starts fresh. All of the old accounts should be VANISHed and the new username should not reflect any of the previously used names and should not obviously follow any of the same editing patterns. If questioned (such as if an SPI is opened), the user should email a trusted admin to deal with proper closing of the case. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 21:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Why? I think the current public disclosure of far preferable, for the sake of transparency. I was using the term "clean start" for its usual meaning, not in direct reference to the strict wiki-procedure known as WP:CLEANSTART. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  21:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Salvidrim!. I don't think we would want to lose the history here.- MrX 22:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I've found that people begrudge people way too long on here and a completely fresh start would be best for this user. Otherwise I fear that the user will just end up being driven off by repeated bad faith accusations and all of this will have been for not. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 22:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
      • Meh, it doesn't seem necessary (nor desired by the user) in this case. I personally tend to favor transparency in all things and this user has seen their fair share of adversity already, and they're still around, so I wouldn't worry too much. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  00:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock For all of the reasons stated above in support, none of which have been overruled throughout the discussion.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 22:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock Within the sake of bureaucracy, I bet you this happens a lot and we just never find out about it. A person gets indefinitely blocked for something they rather shouldn't have done, or something they feel is an injustice. They may wait for a bit, try to take advantage of the standard WP:OFFER and when that gets declined, just lose all hope. Then they create a new account and they are never connected. The English Wikipedia is certainly the largest project in the entire world where people just edit these nifty little things called 'articles' and it gets viewed by all of those near billion people. Plus, whether unblocked or indefinitely banned, you're still using Wikipedia afterwards. Their earliest conduct is very much troubling to the point where if that was happening just today, I would be supporting an all out long term block. 4/5 years is enough time to have genuine sympathy and be contrite about what they've done. Tutelary (talk) 23:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock for the Jabba the Hot account, for reasons stated above. Editor must use only one account, and no alarms or surprises if they are blocked for old repeated behavior. Keegan (talk) 07:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock as above; being naughty four years ago doesn't warrant still sitting in the Naughty Chair ~ far better to bring a potentially/actually good editor back into the fold. Cheers, LindsayHello 10:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock To my opinion the SPI and block were already handed out based on flimsy evidence provided by a user with a content-conflict with Ratel/Jabba the Hot. His edits were, to my opinion, neutral. So I support an unblock. The Banner talk 14:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Actually Ratel made no secret about it really - and the "flimsy evidence" which was provided by User:ClaudioSantos is clear, especially since Jabba sock made precisely similar edits as his Master Ratel. The prior case had evidence from User:The Four Deuces. I provided the material about Jabbsworth, who made BLP-violating edits on the Matt Drudge article. Did Ratel behave well when allowed to reappear? The SPI archive shows him saying "I'd venture that it's Collect, the right wing party apparatchik (or so it seems to me), who spends all his time reverting RS-sourced material from the bios of his like-minded brethren, who is, in fact, the truly unhealthy presence on WP - that he he showed absolutely no remorse for his personal attacks on me and other editors, and no remorse for trying to violate WP:BLP even if he did think a "clean start" allowed one to violate policies.
[6] Firstly, my original block was for socks and voting twice on a AfD on a snow-keep page. why would I bother to vote 2x on a snow keep? Reason: I was high on Oxy after a back op, using different browsers and accounts to dodge the f**king hounders and stalkers (bane of WP), and made an honest mistake. I told the blocking admin at the time but he wouldn't listen. Since unblocking, I've been involved in contentious articles like euthanasia, but if you study my edits, you'll find that they are all cited and none are disruptive. In fact, I recently made a large series of edits to Euthanasia to remove non-standard citations and some undue weight. The other editors watching that page, and there are a lot, let those edits stand. That alone says I am improving the project. As for BLP, I really urge, URGE, you to study the material that I was asking to include. When a topic is covered in at least four published (not self-published) books, numerous news and magazine articles, it deserves at least some mention in a bio. To exclude it completely is to damage wikipedia, and that's exactly what the excluding editor has done and continues to do. Think!  Jabbsworth  22:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC). Still not showing any understanding of BLP policy.
[7] has him pointing out the Sourcewatch article he wrote as a reliable source to be used. People have been project banned in the past, IIRC, just for deliberately using their own article to back what they want a Wikipedia BLP t state as facts. [8] The diff for the BLP is [9]. So unless he is really really going to actually reform, I suggest he not be allowed near any BLPs whatsoever. Collect (talk) 15:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Once again, all of your diffs date from 2011, and don't present any argument (that I can see) that would indicate continued recent disruption. The strength of the SPI evidence is also irrelevant since the user freely admitted to everything he was accused of all these years ago. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
@The Banner: Let me recall you were the first who thought JabbaTheHot was a sockpuppet and that was the last year, some weeks ago you also took part on the SPI opened and explicty mentioned you also had that bad feeling about JabbaTheHot, now note the "flimsy evidence" was not also endoresed by the admins who finally blocked JabbaTheHot, but note it is a superfluous argument since JabbaTheHot is explicty now admitting he is indeed Ratel. Also let me recall the reason for his block was not mainly based on doing non-neutral editions or personal attacks (ythat nevertheless he did and still does, like suggesting editors should be not allowed to edit due their alleged grammar (attacks also addressed to you in the past)); but the major reason to block Ratel was due deceiving the community by using sockpuppets and hiding them, and then breaching two times his own promises and dishonoring his word that he was not going to use sockpuppets. And now he is for more than third time coming with the same promise of not engage in sockpuppetry for which he was blocked but he is coming preciselly after evading again that block using a sockpuppet. --ClaudioSantos¿? 20:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock for the reasons given above - no evidence of ongoing disruption, just an editor who genuinely seems to want to help. Squinge (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Evading a block for various years is evidence of disruption and acting in bad faith, doesn't it? -- --ClaudioSantos¿? 16:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
In theory only. In practice, he seems to have been able to shed his "dark past" of problematic editing and come back as a productive editor despite the block. Everybody (including Ratel) agrees that this "sneaky clean start" was not ideal, and that it meets the definition of "block evasion" (if not its spirit, since it wasn't for continued disruption); but it still demonstrated Ratel's ability to edit constructively and willingness to be reformed. That he came clean once confronted and explained himself transparently is, in my eyes, a sign a good faith. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
In practice he was the last time blocked since he promised a clean start and never use sockpuppets again, and he was blocked the last time on 2012 because that was false: he was caught evading a block due sockpuppetry. now he uses a new sockjpuppet to evade that block and you say he is not being problematic? He is preciselly using sockpuppetry to evade a block due sockpuppetry, and this happened before two times more. That is repetition of the same behavioir or am I missing something? --ClaudioSantos¿? 17:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose unblock: I don´t understand why it is considered Ratel is deserving to be unblocked and not clearly still gaming the system and trying to evade his block. What he thinks about wikipedia is clesrly published here on SourceWatch. He has been caught again and again evading always his blocks by using multiple sockpuppets, the last recently detected and blocked, a sockpuppet he was using for various years ago evading his last block. So what is exactly the evidence he is not willing to act in bad faith? -- --ClaudioSantos¿? 16:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
That he has been editing productively for over two years despite meeting the technical definition of "block evasion" (but without the "continued disruption" aspect) and that he came clean once confronted and explained himself transparently: this constitutes a significant display of "good faith", IMO. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The last time in 2012 he was blocked preciselly because of evading a block, and that was the second or third time. One main part of the disruption component is rpeciselly the use of sockpuppets to evade blocks, feign being another and deceive users, that is disruptive. He aleady used the ARBCOM to appeal a blocking for sockpuppetry and he promised to never use sockpuppets again and the last time was preciselly blocked since he broke his promises. He is now again evading the block and not honoring his own words but using again a new sockpuppet, so is not that disruptive for you? what kind of cleaning start to honor the noit use of sockpuppets is using a sockpuppet to evade a block? --ClaudioSantos¿? 17:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Let me summarize here what the last admin discovered and stated on 2012: Ratel but using the sockpuppet Jabbsworth plead to ARBCOM to be unblocked promising he will never use sockpuppets and openly mentioned to ARBCOM three sockpuppets (RxWatch, OzOke, and Hill-Mitchelson) he was using. On 2012 admin User:Elen of the Roads noticed that Jabssworth never mentioned but hid to ARBCOM that he was also Ratel, and he never mentioned but also hid that he was Ticklemeister. User:Elen of the Roads also discovered and noticed that he was also using another sockpuppet (Medic58), that he also kept hid during his last and all the previous SPI and also hid it to ARBCOM. So he was clearly breaching his promises to ARBCOM, deceiving them and the users, plus dishonoring his own words. That was the kind of disruptive behaviour that was sanctioned by User:Elen of the Roads by re-establishing the block that ARBCOM had forgiven to Jabssworth. Now since 2013 up to now, Ratel using JabbaTheHot evaded that last block, breaks his promises, he is caught and blocked again some days ago and you say that is a clean start, that he is not being distruptive and therefore he deserves to be unblocked again? --ClaudioSantos¿? 18:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Another way to look at it is that since 2012 Ratel has been editing without problem. Our purpose here is to develop an encyclopedia, not to blindly enforce rules, and Ratel has been helping do that constructively for more than 2 years now. Squinge (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) :I'm saying that since he "came back" as Jabba the Hot, he has been editing constructively and has admitted openly his past misdeeds, which is a significant display of good faith, and justifies giving him another chance, instead of keeping him blocked for offenses committed years ago (2012, as you said). We should not forget, nor necessarily forgive, but neither should we allow past misbehaviour to get in the way of currently constructive editing. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  19:29, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
He did not come in a constructive way: he came on 2013 by using the very same distruptive means he was blocked for: sockpuppetry, thus faigning to be a different person, deceiving the editors and breaching his repeated promises of not use sockpuppetry. And please note the very first reason I suspected Jabba the Hot being a sockpuppet of Ratel was: exactly as Ratel did he was making nasty comments on my alleged grammar and suggesting I should be not allowed to edit on english wikipedia, a disruptive conduct for which he was in the past sanctioned, a kind of comments he also used against other users. So plus the major reason for which he was blocked (bad faith sockpuppetry)was repeated and sanctioned few days ago, he also is falling on the kind of disruptive personal attacks that were also sanctioned in the past, so do the bill.--ClaudioSantos¿? 19:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Please provide diffs for your accusation that Ratel (as Jabba the Hot) violated WP:NPA and insulted you for the lacking quality of your English. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  20:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
They were all provided in the recent SPI some weeks ago as well as the similar PA's made using his previous sockpuppets. Take some here and don't hesitate to take the time to review the SPI: [10] and [11]. --ClaudioSantos¿? 20:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The last time when he was called Jabbsworth he liked to just answer me saying my comment and editions are "barely comprehensible" and tackling the thing in such a way. and he was explicty discouraged of such comments since not only me but other users found that insulting. But shall I insist: he broke his word more than two times, he hid sockpuppets and was blocked due that, he plead to ARBCOM and was unblocked, then he was blocked again not only due sockpuppetry again but due he deceived the good faith of ARBCOM and used again sockpuppets plus he was caught liying to ARBCOM since he hid some sockpuppets on his plead and also on the SPI. Now he did exactly the same again and came with a new sockpuppet (breaking again his promises and evading the block) and he is appealing again after he is caught in a SPI. That is not clean start, that is recidivism --ClaudioSantos¿? 20:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Do you really think the way you are operating here is showing good faith and supportive to the encyclopaedia? The Banner talk 21:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes. If you don't think so then provide your arguments. But if it was just a rethoric question then you can ask it to yourself. --ClaudioSantos¿? 21:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Off Topic
— The Banner, I'm fairly certain I said this clearly once in ANI, and I'll look it up if you really like me to: stop talking about CS, anywhere, to anyone, for any reason. You are not "CS-Patrol". You do not need to warn other editors., User:Qwyrxian (talk) 01:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
In fact, I have the idea that you are trying to settle a content conflict by abusing a sockpuppet investigation. Talk:Philip_Nitschke#Discourage_the_sockpuppet is evidence that you try to do that and this is evidence how you do that. And to be blunt: you are the one that should be blocked with as reason not adhering to NPOV and disruptive editing. The Banner talk 21:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
In every article it could be done I restored the versions as they were previous the irruption of the sockpuppet without taking out the contributions of other editors. Versions that were not challenged by no body else and that were not considered POV. Undoing actions by a blocked sockpuppet is allowed and a good mean to discourage sockpuppetry. If you have a complaint on that, go ahead and do the accusation on the proper place. Droping here that you think I deserve to be blocked based on that, it is not only a bad faith assumption (PA) but an attempt to divert the attention out of the topic discussed. My actions reverting sockpuppet JabbaTheHot are in accord to my expressed thoughts in this matter, that I am defending with arguments here, not with accusations on other editors. ---ClaudioSantos¿? 22:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
You have a rather long history of battles with Ratel, mainly POV-issues at euthanasia-related subject. Now you got Yabba blocked and are removing edits/part of edits that violate NPOV. It was you who was accusing me of meatpuppetry when I reverted your POV edits. Why would the community believe that you are sincere in your treatment of Ratel? The Banner talk 22:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Because my arguments are based on facts that can be reviewed not on my sentiments or your itchy feeling about JabbaTheHot being a sockpuppet as you firstly reported him to User:Bilby. You were also engaged in nasty confrontation with Ratel, and you yourself was insulted by him. And the last time he felt free to be even more rude because his long record of block attached was clean due he was using a new sockpuppet. Perhpas that something you should consider about "sincerity", etc. But meanwhile you were discouraged on wikihound me several times, so whathever you think or feel about my own sincerity is not a matter here but a bad faith PA, so I will ignore your off-topic comments. I have been sincere: I think Ratel should not be unblocked. The reasons are above.--ClaudioSantos¿? 03:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
"Reporting" is a big word. I was asking somebodies opinion. And you make it now loud and clear that you are willing to start over you battleground behaviour that you showed in and prior to 2011 what gave you quite a few blocks. Plain to your own behaviour I have no confidence in you that you will not try to provoke or hunt down Ratel/Jabba to get him blocked again as a blocked Ratel/Jabba will suit your own agenda. The Banner talk 09:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Stop making portrayals on what you think is my agenda or my behaviour or what you think I will do. Stop trying to bring your portrayal on what you think is my past. Those are Personal Attacks. You were already blocked in the past for such behavior and explicity asked to do not engage in that useless kind of comments. -- --ClaudioSantos¿? 11:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock with a lot of eyes. If a user engaged in block evasion in order to improve or maintain the encyclopedia then that is okay with me. I say we unblock and all add their talk page to our watchlists. One account only. Chillum 01:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Reply from Ratel - "Collect insists that I am a serial BLP violator and that I not be allowed to edit BLPs, but if you look very closely at his accusation, it does not hold water. He objected vehemently to a section I added to Matt Drudge. You can see that section currently at, where it has now resided for several years. When this was taken to BLPN, nobody said it is a BLP vio except Collect. The two non-involved editors who commented said that the edit was too extensive but that: "perhaps a brief (one-sentence?) treatment would be appropriate" and "I would suggest that a careful, well-sourced sentence might be appropriate." So that's all Collect has against me, that I attempted to insert an overly-detailed edit: no BLP vio at all. Here's the BLPN discussion to confirm.
About ClaudioSantos: it amazes me that this editor continues to be allowed to edit the project! He is extremely combative and POV, edits very poorly (grammar and spelling errors in every sentence), can be hard to understand, and has one agenda: to label everything connected to euthanasia as "murder". He has tried to insert the word "murder" on pages dealing with euthanasia numerous times, example as well as frank vandalism, example. He is now desperate to stop me returning to the project because he knows I will not allow him to deface articles on euthanasia." User:Ratel/User:Jabba the Hot 04:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I will personally note that I, at the very least, agree that Claudio Santos sometimes demonstrates an inequal grasp of English, and that it does not help clear communications, although I do not feel that it rises to a level where it is a problem in and of itself. Ratel also said: "But I am happy to undertake not to edit Matt Drudge, David Copperfield, and any other BLP the sysops at WP deem unsuitable.", which is a voluntary TBAN from two BLPs, coupled with a probation that he can be TBANed from additional BLPs, should future issues arise. This seems like a strong commitment and only serves to further convince me Ratel wants to come back to do good work, and not to perpetuate the issues that happened years ago. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  04:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I have to remain serious in spite of I was able to laugh when I found that the two provided "evidences" of my alleged vandalism were: calling murder the NAZI so called euthanasia program (Aktion T4), and that I was playing for two seconds reinserting the "monkey" that an anonymous vandal had put in the so called "voluntary euthanasia" article and immediately reverting myself, so I euthanazied the poor "monkey" out. Perhaps you can also find that hilarious while not the NAZI mass murder of patients. Me neither. But let me focus: what should call our attention is Ratel once said that he even supports some of the grounds of the NAZI so called euthanasia program. I think he evidently has an agenda on supporting euthanasia and specifically the pro euthanasia Australian organization "Exit Now" and his founder Philip Nitzchke. Proof: in SourceWatch he claimed wikipedia was coopted by "pro-life nuts" (sic!). Proof: BLP issues raised due Ratel campaign against an scholar historian on euthanasia. Other proof: JabbaTheHot and Phillip Nitzchke vs. Nigel Bradley. Now, provided he has evaded his blocks preciselly to edit those euthanasia articles and that was always the case in the past, then should not at least be him banned out of those euthanasia related topics?, I suggested during the SPI on 2012 that "final solution". I mean a minimal action to tackle the thing and provide a minimal protection to those users affected by Ratel: bann him of those topics he used to edit and led to disruption, so also out of articles related to euthanasia. So,a minimal mean to avoid him finding people like me around, people with an alleged poor grammar, people "barely comprehensible" that he wants to "involuntary" euthanize, such I did with the mentioned monkey, up to take me away from the english wikipedia. Meanwhile, don't worry Salvidrim, I am able to grasp your equal english, and in spite of your claim about my english, I can certify you were completely able to grasp my comments, you got my point and you transmited it to Ratel up to the point you came back here with his "gentle" response. Nevertheless, I also has to certify that you are still not giving me a response nor convincing me either on how could be a "strong commitment to do not perpetuate the issues that happened years ago" if Ratel recently used sockpuppetry again to evade a block that was put on 2012 preciselly due sockpuppetry and due he breached a previous compromise by which he was unblocked? I mean, is it clear that Ratel was already unblocked once by ARBCOM since he promised not to use sockpuppets and he already once broke that compromise, hid some sockpuppets to ARBCOM and decieved the community by using a sockpuppet and that was the main reason of his last block? And is it clear that he recently evaded that last block again using a sockpuppet? Why is not recidivism in the disruptive behavior for which he was blocked? Said that, let me finalize mentioning that I don't see any good will from Ratle to come and do not repeat attacks against me and other people. That was also part of his disruptive behaviour against those he considered "paid guys" or "pro life nuts", thus the people that since being allowed to edit wikipedia is a cause of astonishment, which means it "amazes" him due these "nuts" are still able to edit wikipedia ... while he is not. Salvidrim, I hope I am spelling it in a worthy english that your computer are able to understand. By the way I remember one of my students being sanctioned on the grounds of xenophobia, due she was calling other professor a "french guy who does not know how to speak english and should return to France to teach the children". Well at least I do like learning to learn with children: they enjoy and really handle to learn math, software programming and philosophy as they do with any other language. --ClaudioSantos¿? 05:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock on condition of never returning to old subjects and old behaviors. A clean start is good, so keep it that way. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:03, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I still would suggest he be barred from all BLPs as he "worked" on a substantial number of such including wrestlers, and celebrities in general, adding violations of WP:BLP thereto. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
      • Ratel has agreed to a TBAN from previously problematic BLPs, and a probation that allows uninvolved admins to TBAN him from any future BLP around which issues arise. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  14:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
        • Does it include Philip Nitschke, Ian Dowbiggin? Does it include topics like Aspartame and euthanasia? --ClaudioSantos¿? 15:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
          • Yes, he has also agreed to a voluntary TBAN from Aspartame, and explained previously. I'll ask about the specific other topics you mention. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  15:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock on condition of never returning to old subjects and old behaviors. I hope people keep an eye on contributions to be sure there is no return to calling editors he/she disagrees with shills and such. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:07, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing by ClaudioSantos[edit]

I'm writing a note in a separate subsection because it is not directly relevant to the block appeal, but it IS relevant to the discussion: ClaudioSantos first notified Elen of the Roads with a non-neutral summary (repeating the AN post that mentioned her), but that isn't too bad, taken by itself. It was perfectly appropriate to notify Elen, since they had been mentioned on AN.

However, ClaudioSantos then attempted to WP:VOTESTACK his losing cause by canvassing editors who he probably perceived are likely to side with him: Dbrodeck, BullRangifer, The Four Deuces, Yobol. I can see no other reason for these notifications, since none of them have been mentioned in the discussion.

I don't think this requires any action or reply, I'm mostly writing this as a purely informational note for the closer's benefit. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  14:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

They all were editors involved on the las SPI on 2011 and mentioned in that time for Ratel as alleged users with alleged interests on exclude him from wikipedia since his editions on Aspartame. They received such and other personal attacks, so they deserved to be informed of the situation. In that occasion one complaint against the ARBCOM decision to unblock Jabbsworth was that no body, not even users affected by the disruptive behavior of Ratel were properly informed nor considered. I think it is fair to inform them. I invite you to review the very long archives of SPI, remind there were 9 sockpuppets detected up to now and there are about 9 SPI cases archived, where users had to spent time providing information, discussing the situation and receiving not exactly gentle comments from Ratel. Lacking a careful review on the files and missing some main points there are reasons I see for this non-neutral accussation on canvassing and on this wining impunity cause. By the way, if that was not the purpose at any rate allowing a "clean start" serves to clean also the extense record of blocks of Ratel, as privilege that no other user has, and it has also happened before: since admins were unaware that he is Ratel then disruptive actions by his sockpuppets were sanctioned as it was the first time with short-term blockings. --ClaudioSantos¿? 15:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Off Topic
— The Banner, I'm fairly certain I said this clearly once in ANI, and I'll look it up if you really like me to: stop talking about CS, anywhere, to anyone, for any reason. You are not "CS-Patrol". You do not need to warn other editors., User:Qwyrxian (talk) 01:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
And what about your own sockpuppet? (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ClaudioSantos/Archive) Did you ever took a clean start or did you just sent Bilby into the woods without even admitting that you had a sockpuppet? Why are you banging so loud on Ratels sockpuppetry when you did the same? The Banner talk 15:58, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I have never used 9 sockpuppets nor used them to evade blocks. I missed a password. I was never sanctioned by that but just the sockpuppet eliminated. You were already warned and blocked once due this kind of comments. --ClaudioSantos¿? 16:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
No, Claudio, it is not off topic to discuss your own sockpuppet-history here. The Banner talk 16:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
IMHO it is. This is meant to be a discussion about Ratel's unblock request. ClaudioSantos has voiced their concerns. Let's let others chime in, and then let's allow the closer to assess consensus. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  17:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reporting Illegitimate Reversions[edit]

NAC: This has gone on long enough and doesn't need to be resolved here. Content disputes can be dealt with thataway. Since Albania is in the Balkans as usually defined, conduct disputes can be dealt with thisaway. Enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dear Admins,

I added recently a comment in the section "Albania" of the article Allies of World War II mentioning that:

Over the course of the war, the casualties of the Italian and German armed forces were 26,595 killed, 21,245 wounded and 20,800 prisoners. [1]
  1. ^ Pearson, Owen (2006). Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945. I.B.Tauris. p. 418. ISBN 1-84511-104-4

I was reverted by a user nicknamed The Banner as POV? To the best of my knowledge, insertions which contain pure factual information and do not contain interpretative additions are not subject to being labeled POV.

I would not have given this revert a maximal attention if that would have been an isolated incident. However, since several days, the user The Banner is constantly preventing me (through reverting) from entering information on Allies of World War II, you can see also personal attacks on the talk page.

I believe this is not the editorial behavior that aligns with the Wikipedia quality we aim for, therefore I would like to ask your assistance on improving it. LupinoJacky (talk) 18:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

User LupinoJacky is one disruptive new editor with sole purpose here to whitewash the Albanian role during World War II. Ever since he came, he incessantly tried to add Albania to the Allies of World War II diff of last exemple. The discussion has been going on for long time, see Talk:Allies_of_World_War_II#Albania. LupinoJacky has no sources for hi claims, not a single one saying Albania was allied country. All he does is disruptively ignoring all source provided saying otherwise and insistently trying to convince everyone that Albanian participation in the Paris Conference in 1946 is a sign that Albania was Allied. Nedless to mention that by 1946 the government in Albania had changed (it was not the Axis-allied one anymore, the war was long over, and even so, Albania only got to be considered an associated power at the conference, not even a allied country participant. When confronted with sources provided by me or others, he then changes the words in a manner clearly favoring his POV exemple1 or exemple2. Of course, scholars are wrong because he knows the truth. -_-
Before that, he removed sourced material just because he didn't like it (exemple. Of course, I am vandalizing the article by adding referenced material. I must be really a bad boy...). Of course, he did the same exact thing at Axis powerswhere he keeps on removing Alvania despite the fact that there are plenty of sources backing that fact and despite ignoring numerous editors which expressed their opposition towards his edits at Talk:Axis_powers#Albania_was_an_Allied_State_and_the_entry_here_should_be_removed. Earlier he had canvassed all Albanian editors in serach of support... For instance, I bring a source where an historian says how Albanian troops paraded in Athens along the Germans and Italians one after Axis invaded Greece and he argues those were not official Albanian troops... They were the troops of the state of Albania during WWII, but he ignores that. He ignores that Albania was in war with Allied Greece and Yugoslavia and even declared war to United States! And even after communists took power, they didn't declared war to any Axis country. So he doesn't have a case but keeps on edit-warring and discussing exhaustively, and now reporting, really time for WP:BOOMERANG. Please, no patience for such POV pushers in important WWII articles. At start I even tried to be reasonable and even helped him by bringing sources that matched as close as possible what he pretends, but that is not enough for him, he want total whitewashing of Albania, but hasn't sources for it, and it became a long time now really disruptive on his behalve. Not to mention that is like talking to a wall, he asks for sources, we bring him sources, he ignores. We ask for sources he provided none. Enough. FkpCascais (talk) 18:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Such a personal aggression is not worth of any further response from my side, since I do not belong to this level of discourse. I only kindly ask the Administrators to consider the case objectively and take precautionary measures against the behavior of The Banner and other editors exhibiting similar symptoms. All the independent historic sources regarding my claims are provided in the articles involved and in their talk pages. Therefore, I believe that it is not difficult to assess the reality going on here.
In particular, I also would kindly request to objectively verify the validity of my request in the talk page mentioned by FkpCascais Talk:Axis_powers#Albania_was_an_Allied_State_and_the_entry_here_should_be_removed. LupinoJacky (talk) 19:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, this same topic was already discussed here few days ago (see: /Archive268#Albania in the Second World War). Vanjagenije (talk) 19:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear Vanjagenije thanks for your remark. In my opinion, while the actors involved are primarily the same, the evidence of a specific recent revert mentioned above and the happenings since the date of the first topic are worth of a new evaluation. LupinoJacky (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

This joke has already costed me too much time. In general there is a pattern of denying the existence of an Albanian state (although it was a separate kingdom in personal union), denying the existence of an Albanian government (although the parliament had chosen a prime minister), denying of the existence of Albanian military forces & denying of Albanian participation along side Axis forces against Allies (although Skanderbeg (military unit) fought alongside the Italians in the Uprising in Montenegro), pushing the status as Allied force (although evidence stated that it was only an associated power) and the complete and utter dismissal of every source that did not support his stance. The Banner talk 20:04, 13 February 2015 (UTC) I agree when this case is moved to AN/I

See for example Talk:Allies of World War II and Talk:Axis powers (Note: discussion on top) The Banner talk 20:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I also want to pinpoint to the Banner's disruptive behavior , removing sourced material per wp:idontlikeit , and wp:pov . As proven by this revert , he is claiming as pov a referenced text which states a FACT . He also seems to not take into account the wp:3RR , having reverted in a period of just 4 days more than 10 times for the same matter . As Per talk page , the vast majority -although having some reserves- are in favor of Albania being listed as an Ally . However this user seems to be seeing this as a some kind of personal conflict vs a new editor . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 22:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
It is definately not a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT from my side. It is more a case of WP:IMAKEALOTOFFUSSBUTINFACTIHAVENORELIABLESOURCES from your and Lupinos side. You guys have been told numerous times that for that treaty with Italy Albania was regarded as an associated power. Nowhere is there any evidence that Albania was an Allied Power, still you guys claim that it was. And every time you guys come with the dodgy excuse: The treaty with Italy was signed by Allied Powers and Associated Powers and Albania signed that treaty = Albania is an Allied Power. Even while there is clear evidence that Albania for that treat was regarded only as an Associated Power. Unfortunately for you, threats like this have far less effect on my than reliable sources. But you guys never came up with reliable sources. There not even an Albanian Declaration of War towards the Axis... The Banner talk 00:41, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Here then , here is a second one which states Albania clearly as an Ally . For your convenience :
Axelrod, John. Encylopedia of World War II. Volume 1. H W Fowler. ISBN 978-1-84511-308-7, page 823-824 states explicitly: "The first peace treaty concluded between the Allies and a former Axis nation was with Italy. It was signed in Paris on February 10 , by representatives from Albania, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Czechoslovakia, Ethiopia, France, Great Britain, Greece, India, Iraq, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zeeland, Pakistan, Poland, Slovak Republic, South Africa, the Soviet Union, the United States, Yugoslavia and Italy." Gjirokastra15 (talk) 01:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your source only supports the fact that Albania signed the treaty. I does not support the fact that they were an Allied power. The Banner talk 10:27, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

This is not a right place for this discussion. All we have here is a content dispute, and WP:AN is not a place to resolve such a dispute. LupinoJacky claims that The Banner reverted one of his edits. That is certainly not a case for administrators. LupinoJacky does not show how he tried to discuss and resolve this issue with The Banner. Reporting an editor here just for making one revert, and without trying to resolve the issue on the talk page first, is inappropriate. LupinoJacky also claims that The Banner is "constantly preventing him (through reverting) from entering information on Allies of World War II", although he does not cite any wp:diffs to prove this. If this is really the case here, than this should be reported to the WP:AN3, and not here. LupinoJacky also claims that The Banner issued "personal attacks" on him, but I don't see any evidence for such an accusation. What we have here is basically a content dispute between two group of editors. This discussion should be closed and editors should be directed to the WP:DRR. We should not bother administrators with this, as we do not have any evidence that either party have broke any rule. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry this is not a content dispute, therefore in my opinion attempts to create a relativism of this case are wrong. I talked to him for several days (and several hours per day), however TheBanner denied taking into consideration my sources and reverted ALMOST EVERY edit of mine persistently in the last week, you can easily see it from the edit history, an example of which Gjirokastra15 gave above. In that revert, for which I raised the reporting, I simply entered a referenced fact and it was reverted as "POV". There exist statements of personal attacks too:
"Your reading of that Treaty is a very special one, LupinoJacky. And your interpretation is nothing short of falsifying. With the creative interpretation of the facts, I would really start believing that you are ready to argue that both Italy and Germany are in fact allied powers because they had a resistance movement. Please, stop with this." In the talk page of Allies:
Even though I am more concerned with his persistent attempts to block me from entering the reference-supported inputs. LupinoJacky (talk) 23:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Actually there may be material for admins as LupinoJacky keeps on inserting unsourced and contested material to the articles, and then disruptively crying and reporting when reverted. He is disruptive. The editors failed to bring sources and keep on disrupting the articles despite clear consensus against them. I already pointed out diffs here where he removes sourced content and replace it with his original research. This has been going on for weeks, they are not able to provide new evidence or convince no one and they refuse to drop the stick. FkpCascais (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Let me pinpoint that the 2 last editors are Serbians , and their wp:npov is questionable and nationalistically motivated . The user FkpCascais which up until now had never edited or reverted in that particular article is the one reverting or opposing the outcome the most .They are ignoring the sources , and when unquestionable sources are presented then they label them as non authority . Personally i do not see a content dispute between two camps ... the vast majority is in favor of Albania being listed as an Ally , and the sources do support so . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 00:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I edited all of those articles from the time we dealt with Yugoslav resistance 6 years ago my friend. And in fact, you questioning me based on my nationality only shows your own motivations.
Can you please be kind and name here who did agreed with you? FkpCascais (talk) 00:46, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
No i am questioning you based on your refusal to acknowledge the sources , your lack of a genuine interest to produce a consensus , and the fact that you showed yourself to be the one most opposing it . I do not believe in coincidences , yet i hate assumptions . My motivation is a simple one , helping a new editor who asked help from me on my talk page and making sure that everything is done as per wiki rules by both sides . And without wanting to infest this part of wiki with our Balkan tribal nonsense , let me remind you this:
Axelrod, John. Encylopedia of World War II. Volume 1. H W Fowler. ISBN 978-1-84511-308-7, page 823-824 states explicitly: "The first peace treaty concluded between the Allies and a former Axis nation was with Italy. It was signed in Paris on February 10 , by representatives from Albania, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Czechoslovakia, Ethiopia, France, Great Britain, Greece, India, Iraq, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zeeland, Pakistan, Poland, Slovak Republic, South Africa, the Soviet Union, the United States, Yugoslavia and Italy." Which explicitly states Albania as an Ally . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 00:59, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The source is crystal clear that they were not an Allied power:
but when you read a little but further you can read this:
This quote makes loud and clear that an "Associated Power" was not the same as an "Allied Power" but that there was a difference between then. As Albania was an "Associated Power" it was not officially an ally. The Banner talk 01:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
An Associated Power is no Axis Power either( as per your initial stance).The term Associated Power was first introduced during the WWI where USA was self-styled Associated Power. It was used for countries which fought independently, without external help ( ibid). In your logic USA should be claimed an AXIS too. Shortly as Gjirokastra15 has stated and sources support the term Ally and Associated Power entrench the same position. QTeuta (talk) 20:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

  • I believe that LupinoJacky is only here to right what they believe to be some kind of wrong, and that this has gone on long enough. Drmies (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I've just blocked LupinoJacky for an indefinite period for this disruptive editing. This has dragged on for long enough, with LupinoJacky not being able to provide sources which clearly support their position - which seems to rest on interpretations of primary sources on somewhat different topics and an entry in an encyclopaedia which doesn't really support what's being attributed to it. Instead of finding better sources, LupinoJacky has been dragging the dispute out and escalating it, which is not at all healthy. I also have my doubts over whether the other brand new editors and IP accounts who have been presenting similar views at Talk:Allies of World War II are actually different people, but will assume good faith for now (and their conduct has been less disruptive). Nick-D (talk) 02:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nick-D ah Ok, did you by any chance, saw the initial paragraph written on Albania? It was a poorly written article with 0( zero) sources (you can see the history as per 15 days ago). It was not until LupinoJack intervened that the paragraph became somehow sane and at least had some sources. In my understanding this served well to the accuracy of the article.QTeuta (talk) 19:18, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta
@Nick-D: New user QTeuta was proven not to be a sockpuppet of LupinoJacky (see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/LupinoJacky). IP is probably him forgetting to log in. I have to say that, although I do not agree with LupinoJacky and his methods, I think indefinite block is a little too harsh? Maybe topic ban would be enough? Vanjagenije (talk) 11:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Effectively the same thing. None of their edits have been on any other subject. Black Kite (talk) 14:12, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
What does this mean?QTeuta (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta
@Vanjagenije: thanks for letting me know about QTeuta. Re: the topic ban, individual admins cannot impose bans. I chose to set the block duration to indefinite as LupinoJacky's dominant purpose for editing Wikipedia has been to continue this debate, so a time-limited intervention accompanied by a suggestion that they move onto other topics doesn't seem likely to be successful on the available evidence. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 21:45, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Dear @Nick-D, I have dealt with only that topic because I had no time in hand to deal with other articles and since I am a newbie at Wiki, I preferred not to widen my focus. It was by accident that I stumble upon the Allies article for a paper, and discovered that an illegitimate section without any sources was provided on Albania. Than I saw the Talk section, when LupinoJack ( whom I don't even know) has already provided the necessary sources to increase the accuracy on the Albanian case of this article. Despite his methods, I see no reason, why he was banned on the topic, since all he did was providing sources and not offending anyone, which was not the case with the other members. As I have followed the debates, LupinoJack has continued the debate because his evidences where dismissed ( I repeat dismissed )without no sources and the debate was personalized from @TheBanner and other members. In my humble opinion, that is not fair and the topic should be reviewed from impartial admins. Let me express my firm intention to contribute in increasing the accuracy of the articles related to this country, as I see there is an "aggressive"( I must say) campaign toward accurate sources on this country. In my understanding, Wiki should be a place of fairness and sources, not a place where minorities are suppressed in the name of majorities.QTeuta (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta
QTeuta, LJ provided two sources from the beginning and has just been insistently repeating over and over again the same arguments. Worste, besides you and Gjirokastra15, around 8 other editors participated in the discussions and all disagreed with you. So, the sources were not dismissed, but what was dismissed in consensus is your (miss)interpretation of them. And you have been presented with plenty of sources saying Albania was Axis. Your insistence on this and your intentional misinformation here on what happened in the discussions bring me to a conclusion that you as well want be moving on and will continue with this disruption in those articles. FkpCascais (talk) 21:26, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
You words are foam. Please don't reply to me, unless you present this so-called evidences. Albania was not an Axis Power ( meaning the Albanian official govt fought against Allies, had to pay War Reparation to Allies, a recognized govt signed under the Axis section etc). Albania was an Associate Power as stated above. Associate Power was a term used from WWI for USA to define a country, which fought without external help. You are not intimidating anybody, by making claims, as " plenty" or "misinformation" , facts are not changeable. It is not normal to say the least, that due to under-representation of the Albanians in Wiki and an over-representation of Serbs (as yourself) Greeks and friends, we should modify historical facts as a form of suppression from the majority. QTeuta (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta
Enough? FkpCascais (talk) 22:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

  • The ridiculous initial paragraph on Albania, which was rightfully modified from LupinoJack. copy-pasted

In Europe[edit]

Albania was an Italian protectorate and dependency from 1939 to 1943. In spite of Albania's long-standing protection and alliance with Italy, on 7 April 1939 Italian troops invaded Albania, five months before the start of the Second World War. Following the invasion, Albania became a protectorate under Italy, with King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy being awarded the crown of Albania. An Italian governor controlled Albania. Albanian troops under Italian control were sent to participate in the Italian invasion of Greece and the Axis occupation of Yugoslavia. Following Yugoslavia's defeat, Kosovo was annexed to Albania by the Italians. Politically and economically dominated by Italy from its creation in 1913, Albania was occupied by Italian military forces in 1939 as the Albanian king [Zog] fled the country with his family. The Albanian parliament voted to offer the Albanian throne to the King of Italy, resulting in a personal union between the two countries. The Albanian army, having been trained by Italian advisors, was reinforced by 100,000 Italian troops. A Fascist militia was organized, drawing its strength principally from Albanians of Italian descent. Albania served as the staging area for the Italian invasions of Greece and Yugoslavia. Albania annexed Kosovo in 1941 when Yugoslavia was dissolved, creating a Greater Albania. Albanian troops were dispatched to the Eastern Front to fight the Soviets as part of the Italian Eighth Army. Albania declared war on the United States in 1941. When the Fascist regime of Italy fell, in September 1943 Albania fell under German occupation. The Dodecanese Islands were an Italian dependency from 1912 to 1943. Montenegro was an Italian dependency from 1941 to 1943 known as the Governorate of Montenegro that was under the control of an Italian military governor. When Yugoslavia came under Axis occupation, Montenegrin nationalists attempted to create a Montenegrin state. Sekula Drljević and the core of the Montenegrin Federalist Party formed the Provisional Administrative Committee of Montenegro on 12 July 1941, and proclaimed on the Saint Peter's Congress the "Kingdom of Montenegro" under the protection of Italy. Montenegro was caught up in the rebellion of the Chetniks. Drljevic was expelled from Montenegro in October 1941. Montenegro then came under full direct Italian control. With the Italian capitulation of 1943, Montenegro came directly under the control of Germany.

This was the paragraph which was modified by LupinoJack and Gjirokastra15, and which The Banner, without any clear source states that Albania was an Axis Power(!). Do you see any sources in this section? Let me recapitulate; according to this section "legit" 15 days ago in Wiki a small country of Albania under Italian occupation, after fighting with Greece and Yugoslavia, then annexing Kosovo, fought against the Soviets and declared war on USA!!! One wonders is this even physically possible? A nation of alien warriors. This was the starting point of the debate. I request that the ban of LupinoJack be removed and this injustice continues any time longer. QTeuta (talk) 21:34, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

I provided you a list of sources saying Albania was an Axis country, and User:The Banner edit on this exact text is taken almost verbatim from the sources. You really don't know when enough is enough. It is not our fault sources indicate that Albania invaded Yugoslavia and Greece, helped Axis efforts in the Eastern Front against the Soviets and declared war to the United States. Stop making this drama. FkpCascais (talk) 21:49, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, no words, please source this Axis position. As it was provided here Albania was an Associated Power. A term used during WW1 in the case of USA for a country which fought without any help.QTeuta (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta
You can read here about Albania's declaration of war against the USA something that placed her firmly on the Axis side. The Banner talk 22:03, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, you are giving me a blog as reliable source. Nevertheless, I give you the chance to say that puppet govt( similar to the Vichy Regime or the Hellenic State) under Italian Occupation ( which was not recognized) declared War on USA, did it ever fight? I can declare War to anybody if I want, but that is not legit until I don't fight, and I am not a juridical person(i.e represent an official state,etc)

Definition of Axis: also known as the Axis, were the nations that fought in the Second World War against the Allied forces. This is continuing way to far, since you don't understand that any Albanian official govt never fought against any Ally. That why it was declared an Associated Power. Furthermore, as per USA state department, no Albanian state declared War. Please don't drag me in to this nonsense. QTeuta (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

QTeuta, I provided you 5 sources up there saying Albania was Axis (I had provided more during the discussions), but here comes one more:
Albania in the Twentieth Century, A History: Volume II by Owen Pearson, pag. 458, it says: "Albania was one of the Axis satellites;"
So why do you lie saying no sources were presented to you? Werent you told to bring new sources? Did you brought them? Are we still discussing with you the same sources that have been discussed for weeks and which have consensus that do not say Albania was Allied?
I am really asking the administrators to provide the same exact sanction to QTeuta since they seem unable to provide new sources or evidence, are unable to drop the stick in this case, and are now becoming extremely disruptive by attacking other editors on nationalistic basis and providing false information at reports thinking they will get some amin who will not check the events and just beleave them. WP:BATTLEGROUND all over, they are basically the manual on how not to behave in WP discussions. FkpCascais (talk) 22:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, please kindly pay attention not to make personal attacks. Claiming somebody a lair, is a big thing in my culture.

Your source, cites the MEMORANDUM of the GREEK Monarchy to London( July 18th) as you can see a bit further [ ( pp.457) in that paragraph, which was pretending to annex South Albania with the claims that it was an Axis. The full sentence is "Albania was one of the Axis satellites, consequently the Allies have no reason to refuse the temporary occupation of Northern Epirus, which could be carried out by an Allied force under an Allied commander, but with Greek troops taking part in it."

Basically if Albania was part of the Axis it would had ceased to exit since half of its territory would had been annexed. But this didn't happened since it was declared an Associated Power and the claims were never accepted.

  • So you basically Cherry Picked a word out of context, from a Greek Memorandum with irredentist intentions to validate you claims? In other words, you are cutting words cited from Greek Monarchist as an historic sources. I don't know what is that called?? Don't know who should be banned. Contrary to you, I read the book and know that was not the synthesis.

I am spending more time debunking your nonfactual strategies than doing real things. This discussion should not continue any further in the noticeboard, and non-partial admins should take the matter in their hands. QTeuta (talk) 23:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

To recapitulate for impartial admins: User @TheBanner claimed that Albania declared war on USA which the State Department doesn't know about it. While user @FkpCascais claimed Albania was an Axis by taking a sentence out of the context from a Greek Memorandum which claimed to annex South of Albania ( North Epirus, as it is known from Greek irredentist) pp.457. Both debunked. QTeuta (talk) 23:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

Ow, my goodness. Are now going have another round of complete denial of sources? There is proof that Albania declared war on the USA. There is proof that Albania fought Greece. Montenegro and the partisans. Don't tell me that you are going to deny that all? The Banner talk 23:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
And please, mr. QTeuta, could you use sensible sources to proof your point? Your source states is diplomatic relations. The fact that it does not mention the war declaration does not say there was no declaration of war. And beside that: why would the Allies supply a resistance movement of a country they were not at war with? That sounds a bit silly. But the Allies did help the resistance: Albanian resistance during World War II#Allied links and assistance. The Banner talk 00:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Verrai ‎[edit]

Apparently not a problem after all. Miniapolis 23:40, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This admin has not been active on Wikipdia lately. His contributions page shows no edits for 2010, one day of editing in 2011, one day with one edit in 2012, three days with three edits in 2013, one day with 2 edits in 2014, and a few edits this February 2015.

One of Verai's recent actions was a speedy delete of a category, which I had contested on the talkpage. I have my doubt about whether that was the right call. Please see his talkpage that he has been asked about a few more recent speedy deletions.

I doubt an admin with so few edits in the last 5 years should retain his admin privileges, and in any case his recent deletions give reason to doubt his familiarity with the (speedy) deletion guidelines. Debresser (talk) 22:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Have taken a quick look and offere the following observations:
  • I can't find an RFA for this admin so it looks like another of the "old school" who got adminship in the "no big deal" era
  • They appear to have messed around a bit with their talk page history, I just restored revisions between 2009-2013 which they deleted, no idea where the history from before that has gone
  • If the standards we now have in place for admin activity were in existence a year or so earlier this user would have been desysopped for inactivity a long time ago
  • All that being said, they have actually been doing a lot of speedy deletions lately and the percentage that have been objected to seems pretty low
  • And only arbcom can remove an admin anyway, so if you seriously want to pursue this you will have to take it there

Beeblebrox (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

My username was changed after I became an admin. You can find my original RFA at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Cuivienen. You can find earlier talk page discussions in my archives (e.g., User talk:Verrai/Archives, to which I have periodically moved my talk page as it became large. Also, the Category which I deleted, Category:4th century in Israel, an empty category, had no valid argument from Debresser--he or she had stated on the talk page that it was "part of a set", which is clearly not the case considering Category:5th century in Israel and Category:3rd century in Israel, among others, do not exist, and therefore there was no discussion to be had. You are correct that I have not been very active in a long time until recently. —Verrai 00:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The category tree I was referring to is Category:Centuries in Israel. In any case, I'll probably not pursue this, especially since Beeblebrox says the number of contested deletions is relatively low. Debresser (talk) 01:44, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I might likely to have the sockpuppet investigation in for the eighth time. please have User:Hum1969 banned completely. He uses the IP ranges of the 76.6x.xx.xx (talk) 00:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

There's no way on earth you can ban Hum1969 completely. He will keep on returning BTW. (talk) 11:33, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Darkstar1st and User:Blue Eyes Cryin[edit]

Darkstar1st (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Blue Eyes Cryin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

I would like some advice on what to do in this situation, preferably from an admin.

1. For some time there has been an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Darkstar1st_on_a_site-wide_purge_of_any_mention_of_.22libertarian_socialism.22 about the behavior of Darkstar1st. Basically he's been POV pushing on a number of articles, removing references to libertarian socialism. He's also very active on the talk libertarianism. He has a long history of disruptive editing, including anti-NPOV editing, edit warring, incivility. These are detailed on the thread. A site ban discussion was iniated at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Site_ban_proposal_for_User:Darkstar1st.

2.One of his supporters at ANI, User:Blue Eyes Cryin, looked suspiciously like a sockpuppet on closer examination. Basically he has only been editing at talk libertarianism, tag teaming and offering the same arguments as Darkstar1st. The only edits made were two userspace edits, and edits in support of Darkstar1st at ANi . When confronted [14] he seemed to confirm this [15]. In the exchange that followed he didn't deny it but was insulting.

What I want to know is what the best way forward is. Should I go to WP:SPI? Or should I wait for the site ban proposal to be closed? Btw the site ban proposal has been open for nine days, so it is probably about time that consensus is assessed, and any action taken. --Mrjulesd (talk) 02:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not a sock nor do I have any socks. Darkstar1st (talk) 02:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Obviously Blue Eyes Cryin was already an experienced editor when he created his account, but whether he is a sock of a current or blocked editor or was an IP who registered or just decided on a clean start is not clear. While he may have the same POV as Darkstar1st, there are lots of editors with that POV. His level of writing skills appears far superior to Darkstar1st's. Without better evidence an SPI would fail, so it is not worth going that route. TFD (talk) 03:07, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
far superior is perhaps an understatement. Tfd, Blue eyes even makes your contributions pale in comparison. Darkstar1st (talk) 03:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
HIs prose is superior to mine. TFD (talk) 03:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
i would venture to say superior in every way. You are a comminted editor that has contributed much to wp over the years. I hope we will remain wiki friends for a long time to come. Live long and prosper. Darkstar1st (talk) 06:26, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible sock?[edit]

So I received this out of the blue, and afaik, I don't recall any interaction with the editor.

But the tone of the comment is enough to set off possible alarm bells. Needless to say I would be happy to be incorrect in this.

Would someone clueful in socking or whatever please check into this? Thank you. - jc37 15:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Surprise surprise, it's a sock drawer. Think I got them all. Yunshui  15:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Nice catch! Thanks for checking into this : ) - jc37 15:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Bot-like edits from an IP address[edit]

User: was blocked for a month last year for well-meaning botlike edits which were damaging articles - the IP was efficiently responding to reqphoto templates in alphabetical order, but with mistakes and a tin ear (ignoring any specifics of the photo requests, using full Commons captions however inappropriate, and occasionally duplicating images), and generally making "high-speed or large-scale edits that involve errors an attentive human would not make". The IP resumed botlike editing a couple of months later and is working on infoboxes now, attracting some talk page feedback about how they've broken some infoboxes in the process. Although the user seems to have taken some corrective action, they have said nothing on its talk page and don't seem to have ever talked to another Wikipedia editor about the edits. It looks like there's a useful, unpolished bot in here somewhere, but it shouldn't be running on an IP address with no edit summaries.

(Oddly the IP received some press coverage last month for being a UK parliament IP address which was swamping a government-edits-to-Wikipedia Twitter bot.) --McGeddon (talk) 19:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Stop x nuvola with clock.svg User(s) blocked. for six months. Hopefully they will speak up and we can resolve this before then. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Block Review of ArmyLine[edit]

Consensus is that the block was proper, however this discussion is moot as only appeals by the sanctioned user can be considered. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 02:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to request the review of the block on ArmyLine. The editor requested a review of conduct for an admin[17] regarding their actions and language towards me, as well as the unusual terms of my block[18]. In which the admin required me to self impose a topic ban on "Gamergate" and related items to be unblocked. For this mention it appears that the blocking admin has taken this indirect relation as a violation of the editor's topic ban.[19]

There seems to be an ongoing issue with some admins being biased and block happy. There seems to be plenty of Admins with the mindset that anyone remotely related to gamergate is automatically detrimental to Wikipedia. And being deemed related to gamergate seems to be as simple as requesting the review of an admin's conduct[20]. Is this an acceptable practice? TyTyMang (talk) 07:51, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Endorse block. Common sense and the administrator who reviewed the unblock request agree that there was a clear breach of the topic ban. Wikipedia is not a social networking site where justice is pursued for its own sake—the encyclopedia does not benefit when large numbers of returned users and SPAs seek to push articles on a topic (gamergate) to their favored view. Strong measures are needed, particularly in view of the off-wiki coordination that surrounds every aspect of the case. Johnuniq (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Logged in and edited just for more drama that had to do nothing with building an encyclopedia. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 12:12, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Arbitration fails if the same disruption that led to the case is permitted to continue after it. --TS 13:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse If you have a topic ban, the only time you should be bringing up anything related to the topic ban should be in an arbcom case, or in a discussion concerning your topic ban at an acceptable venue. You shouldn't be bringing up other editors topic bans, or proposed topic bans, for the same thing when they don't relate to you. It doesn't even matter whether this was coordinated off wiki or not. P.S. I have no idea whether your proposed? topic ban was fair and acceptable but silly stuff like someone who themselves has a topic ban on the subject bringing it to ANI isn't encouraging me to look, nor for that matter is you bringing for review this fair block. In other words, it seems to me that many Gamergate supporters are their own worst enemy. Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I guess I was a little more vague than I had originally thought. Given the circumstances, was the editor violating their topic ban? They were requesting a review of an admin for his use of colorful language in regards to a person. He also quoted the admin's mention of the topic he was banned from, because it was not appropriate in the situation. So the implicit question is, can an editor with a topic ban scrutinize an admin who's action is not in relation to the topic, but is mentioned in passing?
I wasn't topic banned, and my ban wasn't related to anything gamergate at all. But the admin who blocked me said he would endorse my unblock if I undertake to avoid such material. I find it very strange that some editors get a block for quoting someone, and others actually edit their topic banned articles and are commended instead. TyTyMang (talk) 08:49, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Have a look over ArmyLine (talk · contribs)—I haven't checked everything, but it looks like all contributions since June 2014 are gamergate related (that's every single comment and edit in the last eight months). The talk page shows that an explanation for the block has been given. Arbcom voted 12���nil to indefinitely topic-ban ArmyLine (see ARBGG). A topic ban includes the fact that the editor must not launch ANI reports about gamergate drama (diff, archived here). I will mention again that the reason Wikipedia is "hemorrhaging users" is that there are too many POV pushers attempting to use the encyclopedia for their own purposes—dealing with them over and over and over makes all normal people leave. Some would see ArmyLine's report at ANI as a request for a "review of an admin for his use of colorful language", but experienced editors know that it was an attempt to continue the gamergate WP:CPUSH and wear down opponents. Wikipedia is a pretty simple place—doing stuff that improves the encyclopedia is good; anything else is not. Johnuniq (talk) 09:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Little to do with being vague. I researched this myself before replying. In one of the links you used when starting this thread above, Amyline said "Admin .... attempted to blackmail him into accepting a topic ban involving "all articles related to gamergate (broadly construed)". Clearly Amyline was bringing to ANI stuff related to gamergate (a proposed topic ban from gamergate is clearly related). It was obvious from what they were quoting, which implied they knew it was related. But really they should have taken enough care that they should have known anyway, so it wouldn't work out much better for them if they didn't quote. But this stuff relating to Gamersgate they were bringing to ANI was nothing to do with them, which was really the only thing that might be acceptable. I wasn't totally sure when I initially replied when you'd been actually topic banned, or it was just a proposed topic ban, but this was beside the point. Whether it was a topic ban, or a proposed topic ban, AmyLine had no business getting involved in it given their own topic ban. It doesn't matter whether the proposed topic ban of you was fair or justified. That's something either your, or people the community still trust to be involve in the Gamergate topic area should be dealing with, not someone who was topic banned from the area (meaning the community don't trust them, in this case, as a result of an arbcom case). In fact, Amyline's involvement damaged any chance of you getting a favourable outcome since people get distracted by someone violating their topic ban. And fairly or not people think that perhaps there is a problem with your editing if someone like Amyline (who has problems in that area) decided to get involved. I might have sympathy for you (although since nothing really happened in the end, not much), but your involvement here kills any sympathy. To put it simply, since Amyline has no business getting involved in the Gamersgate topic area (including in appealing proposed topic bans for other people in that area, amongst other things), your inability to see this suggests may be the the proposed topic ban wasn't totally without merit, with me having to look more further in to the case. Nil Einne (talk) 12:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, the points you guys make are reasonable. I may have just been looking at this situation from a more personal perspective since I was part of the subject that brought this on. TyTyMang (talk) 23:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse block. Because Armyline is topic banned from the GG area he has a right to question admin action against him in relation to the GG area, but not against anyone else. He broke his ban, he pays the forfeit, end of story--Cailil talk 13:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse block -- Plus the op should go back to being blocked. The block here has been reviewed by several different administrators, endorsed and declined to unblock. Bringing this here is disruptive. The editor that started this thread is a SPA and only here to disrupt the project. That much should be obvious. Dave Dial (talk) 15:01, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse block - I was going to make a bit of long rationale, but having read through the thread and the talk page, there isn't anything I can add that hasn't already been said. Blackmane (talk) 00:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of educational institutions........[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Not an issue for Administrators' noticeboard. Referred elsewhere: This is a content issue, not an admin issue. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear Admins. I recently came across article List of educational institutes in Rohtak. I noticed other similar articles such as this, this, this and few other articles. I checked WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a directory and am still not clear if these pages should exist. May I please request your feedback on this? If you recommend that such pages do not qualify then I will nominate them for WP:AfD. Cheers, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 10:09, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This isn't an admin issue as it is purely about content. I've been working on list articles and disambig pages, so I'll be happy to take a look. In short, list articles are supposed to contain entries only for notable members of the list - Wikipedia is not a web portal (or a directory). I'll start by removing the non-notables and will see what's left. Squinge (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I started removing unlinked and unsourced establishments from the given articles, but that has been contested at Talk:List of educational institutions in Tiruchirappalli and so I have paused. I know this is still not an admin issue, but I hope someone here will be able to point us at the best place to have a discussion on what is suitable for inclusion in these list articles. Squinge (talk) 12:13, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
VPP. These are not lists of educational institutions, but list of articles. Chances are these lists should contain a lot of red links, but never external links in place of red links. I'd be surprised if someone could quickly asses the notability of so many entries so quickly. Lack of an article is an incredibly poor indicator of notability. -- zzuuzz (talk) 17:30, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Squinge, it's nice that you ask about it. But you do misunderstand about what is okay/good in list-articles. Please do read wp:LISTN and wp:SALAT. Briefly, the lists of educational institutions CAN and probably should list schools that are not individually notable. List-items do not have to meet the standard for notablity that a separate article requires. And, while source-links for every item might be nice, it is fine for any article, including list-articles, to include information that is not footnoted, if it is believed to be correct and has not been challenged. We don't have to excessively footnote every sentence or item. I would tend to AGF that the Rohtak list-article editor(s) are familiar with the area and are correct in their listing of schools. It is NOT appropriate to delete any, probably, especially not as here, deleting a whole section of medical higher ed institutions. Many items, including any higher educational institutes, are probably individually notable and worthy of having articles. So it is good for there to be redlinks for them. wp:Redlinks are helpful for identifying needed articles; "redlinks help the wikipedia grow". True, we should avoid being a directory, but that means not providing phone numbers and street addresses and opening hours and so on. Partial or comprehensive lists of schools are good, and I think many/most of your edits should actually be reverted. Hope this helps. --doncram 17:52, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
It is doncram's attitude to lists that has caused so many problems at AfD etc in the past and is why some India-related lists remain mothballed in userspace following consensus to delete. It is no great secret that India stuff is subject to a phenomenal amount of dreadful contributions, so why not just stick with NLIST and V? We've got enough crap to sort out without having thousands of additional redlinks to keep an eye on in this area. Alas, AGF is one of those things that really doesn't work wonderfully well in this subject area: one has to be extremely cautious. - Sitush (talk) 18:10, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Folks, thanks for your thoughts and for the links. The problem I have is that the vast majority of entries in these lists don't even have sources, so they could even be just made up. Even without that, we surely can't want these lists to be used to promote all kinds of businesses that have no encyclopedic relevance? (And I mean no offence to anyone in India, but the great majority of commercial pushing I've seen in the past few months has been from that country). Anyway, my real question is to ask is there a more appropriate forum for discussing such things? Squinge (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
    PS: Sorry, I meant to add that if anyone thinks my excisions should be reverted then please go ahead and do it - otherwise I'll be happy to revert myself once I find the right place to discuss this and if a consensus says so. Squinge (talk) 00:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
  • And finally, I'm not going to have time to look into this properly now, so I've reverted my changes and won't be able to help, sorry. Squinge (talk) 10:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Sitush, though there have been some problems about doncram's overly minimal articles, his statement of what lists like this should contain is in my view quite correct. These sorts of lists can not only contain things where the artless have not yet been written, but even things that are not quite notable. They're an accepted way of handling mentions of non-notable content. And he is also correct that any degree-granting higher educational institution whose real existence can be proven is considered notable here, though that is not a formal guideline. I agree with you, though, we need to be cautious about the exact nature of Indian institutions. DGG ( talk ) 01:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I'd suggest that each entry should at least require a source demonstrating the existence of the institution. Squinge (talk) 09:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Actually, Arun Kumar SINGH's correct, [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a directory has this covered. None of these schools show notability, nor are they given automatic notability (like places are ), therefore I'd say remove them, as including them makes that page a directory of schools, which is not permitted. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm closing this as it is obviously not an administrative issue. There are plenty of forums for discussing content issues, this isn't one of them. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

AFD close/review requested[edit]

Resolved: discussion has been closed by T. Canens. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi, hoping an uninvolved admin can take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Possible Liberal Party of Australia leadership spill, 2015 and make a close if possible? The discussion was relisted after 23 separate comments were made, and there is a fair bit of surprise from participants about the fact that it wasn't closed. Normally I'd be happy to wait for another few days for it to come around to closing time again, but this is a rather hot issue in Australian politics, and the AFD is holding up what might very likely be an uncontroversial move. Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC).

I almost did, but after reading it through, and seeing the relist, I think I'd like to wait to find out the reasoning behind the relist. - jc37 08:07, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
On the face of it, it seems like a very poor relist from a non-admin, and it is very disappointing that the editor as failed to respond to multiple requests to provide a rationale. StAnselm (talk) 10:02, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Closed. T. Canens (talk) 12:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Airbus A320neo family[edit]

User:Trymeonce blocked at WP:AIV.Amortias (T)(C) 01:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Special:Contributions/ and a user created today: User:Trymeonce - which possibly both are the same - editing the intro of A320neo with lengthy discussions, with the clearly wrong statement, that the A320neo is not newly produced, but built with used aircrafts.

Please: A semi-block is not preferred, it would ban me and other IPs to edit this article. (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Help is needed. (talk) 17:43, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The editor appears to be well past WP:3RR and looks to have been warned so a report to WP:AN/EW would be your best bet. But it looks like one was already made anyway Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Trymeonce reported by User:Denniss (Result: ). As for the IP, no point worrying about them unless they actually reappear. If they do, you could probably also report to EW or just to WP:ANI for block evasion presuming the account is blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 17:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
[21] Fascist? Help! (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ seems to be static regarding style and reverts. (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
See my comment below. A semi-block will not prevent anyone from editing the article. It only prevents unregistered editors from editing the article without creating an account. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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