Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive275

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Noticeboard archives


AerospaceAirAviation WP:OFFER unblock request[edit]

User unblocked. Max Semenik (talk) 04:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AerospaceAirAviation (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

This user is applying to have their indef block lifted at User talk:AerospaceAirAviation#September 2015. The request itself:

It has been more than two years since I first attempted to have my block reviewed. Although I have failed to prove that I'm ready to be rejoin the editing community with my first unblock request, I believe this request will hopefully show the admins that I am ready to be unblocked. During this two year time frame, it gave me a chance to look over my actions that have led to my blocking. Since my blocking admin Toddst1 seems to be retired and inactive from Wikipedia, I am not sure who will take over his spot and replace him as the blocking admin in my case. I will clearly address WP:BATTLE like Toddst1, plus, reiterate what WP:OFFER is as well. As I clearly now know, my block was put in place due to aggressive editing, and the sockpuppetry. I violated two big rules of Wikipedia. I did indeed use KevinMichaelBradley as an account to abuse my editing privileges, and potentially start a war with another user on Ethiopian Airlines. I was given the WP:OFFER at the time of my blocking by BWilkins. I understand that this is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card that is randomly given to me. I have to show and prove to the community that I deserve to be given another chance. By reading WP:BATTLE, I completely and fully understand that Wikipedia is not, I repeat, is not a war zone where you can be at war with other users. Wikipedia is a friendly community where users and IP users edit in good faith. When I see something that is incorrect, I should not be ready to attack the user with negative comments. I should first off, always assume these edits are in good faith. Unless otherwise if you can tell that this is vandalism. Instead, If I see an edit that is incorrect, I should politely explain to them what is incorrect about their edits. Wikipedia is no place to start conflicts and discriminate or harass anybody. I should always act in a calm and civil manner, and not try to start an edit war with a user or with multiple users. Again, Wikipedia is not a battleground. If I am attacked by a user, I should refrain from defending myself. Rather, ignore the user, or kindly explain how the user, or users, are acting uncivil, insulting me, and/or are being uncooperative and disrespectful. I should make sure to come to a consensus with users as well.

If given another chance, I do promise to abide by these rules and always act and edit in a calm and civil manner. I will not abuse multiple accounts ever again. I will never ever aggressively edit any pages if I am given a second chance. And finally, I will never make anymore threats to users and IPs. I do promise and swear that I will make good edits from here on out, and that any new edit that I see is done by another user should be assumed in good faith. I can assure you that these two years have given me a good long time to think about my actions in the past, and how I should act if I am given the opportunity to edit pages again. This is not the place to start any battles, or take out my anger, or create any conflict with another user. I hope that this request can be seen as a huge improvement from the first unblock request that I posted more than two years ago. I am willing to go above and beyond to prove that I have changed, and that I will keep my promise to contributing good edits in the community, and behave more maturely than I did in the past. Thank you for your time. Triple A (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thoughts? Max Semenik (talk) 04:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Sure, why the hell not. Blocks are cheap for repeat offenders; let him back and see how it goes. Unless someone comes up with some evidence that he isn't telling the truth above regarding being away for 2 years, people grow up and change over that time period. If it goes pearshaped, we can always put the block back in place. --Jayron32 04:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, Jayron, but "blocks are cheap" is a tired old cliche that really doesn't have much relevance to the real world, since editors can do significant damage to the encyclopedia before anyone catches on to their shenanigans and blocks them again. In that respect, blocks are decidely not cheap, once you factor in the cost of undoing the damage done. So let's retire the "blocks are cheap" slogan and take a look at the specifics of this editor
    AerospaceAirAviation's edit count profile shows that they made 341 edits in 3 1/2 years, which is not terribly proficient, although 64% of their edits were to articles (which would be good if they were productive edits), with 30.5% to user talk pages. So, what is that about? If 30.5% had been to article talk pages, that would be a different matter, but why the disproportionate percentage of edits to user talk pages, with no edits to article talk pages? That would appear to be the profile of an editor who didn't discuss disputes on article talk pages, but took them directly to the editor, which is not a particularly good sign. In fact, all of their edits in the last three months of their editing, before being blocked, went to user talk pages. I don't see that as a positive in any way at all.
    My own conclusion from examining the data on this editor is that I am not really convinced that allowing AerospaceAirAviation to edit again would be a net positive for the project. I would be less inclined to say this if someone would step forward and offer to mentor the editor and to monitor their edits while mentoring (too many mentors appear to think that it's a hands-off assignment) for, let's say, three monrhs, at which time they would be free to edit without supervision. Anyway, that's my suggestion. BMK (talk) 05:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Over the course of two years, people can change. I am totally willing to give this editor another chance. There is a good chance that will result in gaining a good editor. Of course, there is also a risk that it will result in disruptive editing that will go unnoticed for a while, as Beyond My Ken suggests, but there is no reason to assume that will be so, and it's not too difficult to check the editor's edits for a while. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Support unblock. Cheap are blocks. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Okay, while blocks do have a cost a block every 2 years is not that expensive. We have something to gain by getting a potentially productive contributor. Unless evidence is shown that this person engaged in egregious personal attacks or threats I see no reason not to try again. HighInBC (was Chillum) 18:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock. Seems like he's maybe grown a clue. KrakatoaKatie 04:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I believe him. Support unblock. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. NE Ent 18:04, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blanking of Madotsuki the Dreamer's talk page[edit]

Joshua Goldberg is a young Floridian recently arrested, suspected of inciting terrorism. He edited wikipedia logged out and logged in using more than one account. His User:MoonMetropolis account was indefinitely blocked for socking and edit-warring two years ago. The talk page is not protected or blanked. Goldberg sock User:Madotsuki the Dreamer was indefinitely blocked by User:Guerillero on 18th of this month, after Goldberg's arrest was reported. Guerillero protected the talk page and blanked it. I'm curious about the blanking.

I asked Guerillero on his talk page and he addressed his protection of the page but not the blanking. [1] (In that discussion he says I'm on a crusade of some sort. I genuinely have no idea what he means. Perhaps he's mistaken me for someone else.)

Can anyone here explain the point behind the blanking of the Madotsuki talk page? On its face I think the page should be readily visible to anyone looking into Goldberg's online career, but perhaps I'm missing something. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

The content of User talk:Madotsuki the Dreamer is readily visible in the edit page history. Liz Read! Talk! 14:21, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, it's available, but not as readily visible as it would be on the user talk page. That's the effect of blanking: it, to some extent, hides the content. I'd like to know the reason for hiding it. I can see no obvious purpose. I grant I may be missing something. Hence, per WP:ADMINACCT, I'd be grateful if Gamaliel would explain. I don't appreciate him dodging the question and addressing me like a troll ... or a crusader (whatever that means). Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Why the fuss? Are you concerned about censorship or loss of liberty? Is Wikipedia a battlefield for freedom? How about just assuming that the admin took his actions because he (a checkuser) has access to information that you don't, and that dropping hints about the information would not in any way help the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your speculation. I'm fairly sure I'm not making a fuss. I'm just asking a question. If I don't get an answer soon, though, then I might make a fuss. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:02, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
You missed an opportunity to mention why you are asking a question, and your reply did not address the substance of my comment. Johnuniq (talk) 11:25, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
He hid a page. It seems pointless and a bit stupid, frankly. If he has a good reason for doing it, fine. Share it. If he doesn't have a good reason - and the longer this goes on the more convinced I am it's just a stupid move he can't defend so he's being rude to me for asking the question - then he should unblank it.
It's a simple, reasonable question from one volunteer to another. I realise I'm just a, you know, editor and he's an admin and all, and I know how very busy he is and how he has so much important stuff to do around here. But I would like him to explain himself ... and without accusing me of being on some imaginary crusade if at all possible. From WP:ADMINACCT:

Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools, and unexplained administrator actions can demoralize other editors who lack such tools. Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions. Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.

--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:48, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't see why this blanking and protection should be at all controversial. This guy is a serial troll and apparently a terrorist. Why on earth would we want to serve as a host for publishing material written by him? The only reason we allow blocked editors access to talk pages is so they can appeal the block or discuss the circumstances of the block, neither of which is going to happen here. And the talk pages of high-profile blocked editors often end up serving as forums for people to discuss the user or the block, which isn't the intended purpose at all. That's just what I can tell from public information, and from the sounds of it Guerillero has access to private information about the case as well. (Admins don't get to play that card, but arbitrators do.) Hut 8.5 20:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm curious about the hiding, not the protecting. You ask why we would want to host his talk page comments. Transparency. If there's no reason to hide, don't hide. (Do I really need to explain that?) And there is no reason to hide it, in this instance. I know this is a relatively small case. That doesn't diminish my question's legitimacy. My concern is rising, though, about Gamaliel's Guerillero's behaviour in this small case. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC) Correction 02:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Virtually everything I've said above applies to both the blanking and the protecting. We're not "hiding" this person's writings. Anyone who wants to see them still can. If we wanted to "hide" them we would have deleted or oversighted them. We just aren't displaying them to the world. You'd prefer them to remain unblanked in the name of "transparency"? OK, but you don't get to decide what happens here, I don't think there's any policy or guideline indicating that these things should remain unblanked, and it doesn't look like anyone else agrees with you. I also don't think Gamaliel has anything to do with this. Hut 8.5 06:14, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your insights. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Dispenser tools and updates[edit]

Hey everyone. I got my Labs account back and getting things working again. Thanks to all those that took the survey. In Dab solver you can disambiguate your watchlist (Multilingual Wikipedias now) and Dabfix has had some usability improvements.

Additionally, IEG 2nd round for 2015 is ending today and since community support is weighted in you should comment. My three proposals are To check images for colorblindness problems, An Alt text game, and for the nerdy programmers out there Telnet version of Wikipedia. Cheers, Dispenser 20:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Dispenser: I hate to keep mentioning this every time the matter of your old tools comes up, but is there any chance that your coordinates-error tools will be restored? Deor (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
@Deor: The WMF decided to scrap community development code in favor of new code in-house. I was consulted only once from the team over a parameter's function. Although, I believe the WikiMiniAtlas is still running it. — Dispenser 21:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Pretending to own images[edit]

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara: pretends to be owning those images that he has saved from other websites. He fails to prove that he is the actual owner of the pictures.

Images include:-

Problem is with his continued edit warring over the tagging of the images, since he don't own them, he cannot upload either. D4iNa4 (talk) 08:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Where has Hitch Hicking claimed to own any of these images? I see that even in his original uploads of those images, he clearly states who the actual copyright owner is, and he does not claim himself. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
See licensing. He refers to PAF Museum and their material is protected with copyrights. Best he did was, he copied them from there or these links that I mentioned, and then uploaded them here, while having no connection or consent with the original copyright holder. That way, we can take many images away from the same website and simply credit them, but I am sure that it is not allowed. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Are you familiar with non-free use? If Hitch satisfied the requirements laid out by that policy, he doesn't need anyone's permission. I'm not saying that's the case, but what you've shown has not proven wrongdoing. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
I think he is not. His sourcing to PAF Museum also seems to be incorrect, because he has no links to show and pics have been copied from these sources that I have provided, can be observed by the moment of the picture (same amount of brightness, smoothness, etc.). D4iNa4 (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
The links you provide as the sources of the images are not the sources of the images, and do not claim to be either. In fact, most of the links you've provided explicitly credit the ISPR as the source of the images. The ISPR is a government run public relations agency that services Pakistan's military branches. Hitch indeed did not provide the link where he got his images from, and that's imperfect, but so far nothing looks inconsistent with his claims. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:58, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


D4iNa4 is just returned from an SPI block 1 and started Editwarring and removal of Sourced Contents 2 and a Picture 3 about Pakistan victory in Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 for which he was warned by a fellow editor 4 since then he started warring by an IP and Oversighted the details 5.I filed an spi against him for his actions 6, and he counter filed an spi against me 7 which proved nothing against me, after this i warned him that i will request an action against him 8 on WP:ANI per WP:BOOMERANG and he counter filed this report against me just after few minutes. This report is a Clear example of WP:BOOMERANG. HIAS (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
HIAS: I did no edit warring, my version exists on the current article,[13] you did attempted to game system[14] but it didn't worked.
@Someguy1221: if there is no credible source to the actual source, what we do then? ISPR is clearly not PAF Museum. Yes these don't claim to be the owner of the images which should be noted, but these images have been replicated to Wikipedia, it is essential to link to the actual source. The real sources of these images are still missing. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
@D4iNa4: you could start by politely asking Hitch where he got the images. But the history between you and hitch, as well as the fact that you ran straight here to tattle on him instead of asking him a simple question, makes me wonder if you simply have a vendetta against him. It may be best for you to just drop the matter entirely and avoid hitch in the future. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Autopatrolled[edit]

Greetings, noting here that there is one request here that hasn't been addressed for over eight days. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the nudge, and congratulations! All the best, Miniapolis 22:19, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Miniapolis, I don't know if you noticed this but User:Bharatiya29 was requesting the autopatrol right for User:Kanghuitari. I wasn't aware that one editor could request user rights for another editor but I'm new to PERM. Liz Read! Talk! 01:45, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
@Liz: From my casual, non-admin observations, it's just autopatrolled that other users can request. Kharkiv07 (T) 02:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Autopatrolled also mentions requesting for other users. Kharkiv07 (T) 02:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
User:Kharkiv07, you are correct and I was mistaken. But now I know! Liz Read! Talk! 02:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
@Liz: yes, an editor can "nominate" another editor for Autopatrolled rights. I've done it at least once myself, and intend to nominate more when I get some time again so I can properly research candidates. --IJBall (contribstalk) 15:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
It seems unusual to request a right for another editor without at least requiring that editor's assent and stated desire to acquire that privilege. But if the user right guidelines permit it, that is the last word on it. Liz Read! Talk! 15:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I guess the idea with autopatrolled is that it's not anything extra for the person getting the right; it wouldn't affect their editing at all unlike the addition of extra buttons that comes with other rights. Autopatrolled is primarily for helping other users. Sam Walton (talk) 16:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
As I understand it autopatrolled is the only right you can't request be removed, and the only one where it's morally okay to nominate others without their consent. It can be detrimental to others (the patrollers) for you not to have the flag. Of course you could then create some bogus articles and we'd have to remove it, but I like to think someone who has gained that trust wouldn't intentionally disrupt the project to remove something that doesn't have a direct effect on them in the first place. If they want a second set of eyes on their articles they can go through AfC MusikAnimal talk 22:13, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

() I didn't know that autopatrolled—or any other user right—is irrevocable (if that's what you meant, MusikAnimal). The reason it can be requested by a third party is because it can lighten the load at NPP. Miniapolis 22:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Not irrevocable, but MusikAnimal's interpretation seems to be that it should only be revoked for cause and not on request. Not that I hang out at WP:PERM much, but I hadn't thought of it that way, and if someone asked for its removal I would've done it. In general I'd be inclined to say you get to decide what user rights you don't have; I don't think there's any significant population of anti-autopatrolled protesters to the point where you'd call it disruptive to NPP to reject the right. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:24, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, I didn't mean to imply there's some strict guideline on removal of the right (not sure if that's even in writing). I wouldn't go as far as to call it disruptive to do so, but we should not knowingly allow a user to unnecessarily add to the backlog. Every little bit counts in a project that yields 750+ articles a day ([15]). The only scenario where I see removal of the right appropriate by request is if they choose to leave the project. They otherwise need a very good reason, as it makes no difference to them whatsoever. Autopatrolled is entirely in the interest of patrollers and not the user who holds the "right" – which is better worded as a "flag" than some sort of privilege. MusikAnimal talk 03:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
True. I should butt out since I don't work on this stuff, but I just don't love the idea of a user group that works like reverse Groucho Marx club: we'll have you as a member whether you care to belong or not. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Possible abuse of admin tools by User:Nyttend[edit]

Apology issued by Admin Nyttend. Consensus exists that things said and some actions taken were not correct. There seems to be a consensus that Nyttend should not have said he would block, here, over a supposed "hoax". A concern has been raised and is supported that editing through protection, here, was problematic. Some dispute remains over how exactly to apply WP:Involved, in this matter, although, at the least, a plurality sees an Involved problem. Close has been requested, and there appears to be consensus for this to be closed Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nyttend has been abusing admin tools. The trouble started at this thread. Heimdallr of Æsir (talk · contribs), a disruptive sock account, was reported for threats and edit-warring. Heimdallr of Æsir was then blocked for a week but immediately unblocked at Nyttend's request. Nyttend then protected the Turkey article and reverted it to a version only he found acceptable. He then threatened to block anyone who reverts him after the protection is over [16][17].

Nyttend repeatedly called users that felt the need to restore the original caption as "hoaxers" over and over again [18][19][20][21][22][23]. He then closed the discussion to that effect. But even his closure was immediately reverted by Future Perfect at Sunrise who saw that it was made on unacceptable grounds. Even after me and other users pointed out that the caption was backed by sources, he continued the name calling despite the fact that several users, including veterans users and admins, spoke out against the usage of such language. See comments by admins NeilN and Future Perfect at Sunrise and veteran users Dr.K. and Athenean. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I would say that Nyttend could have handled this better, but the only "abuse" of admin tools is editing the article to his preferred version after protecting it. Your main concern however, seem to be Nyttend's use of the term "hoaxers". It doesn't require admin tools to call people hoaxers. So what is it you want from this thread?--Atlan (talk) 08:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
The situation is very simple: several people have knowingly presented a map as being otherwise than it is. A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real; in this case, the "something false" is the idea that the map represents Kurdish-majority areas, a statement clearly belied by the map's source. When you're willing to tag-team editwar a hoax into an article, and you're more concerned about personal attacks than presenting a truthful article, you're not here to build an encyclopedia. It's not surprising that you'd seek sanctions against the admin who sees through your sham and tries to enforce our policies against you. Nyttend (talk) 11:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
As Nyttend did not do the unblocking, that's irrelevant. Nyttend did unnecessarily mix editorial and admin functions: they should have either a) reverted and requested another admin WP:RFPP -- simply dropping the hint I can't protect it due to involved (e.g. I'm an admin) would likely gotten someone else to protect in short order. Or b) protected and posted an edit request on the talk page -- again another admin probably would have made the edit in short order. There is, of course, the "any reasonable admin" argument here, but a two admin solution is the Path of Least Drama. NE Ent 12:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, are you saying Future Perfect at Sunrise is supporting hoaxing? [24] --NeilN talk to me 12:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
If necessary, we revert disruption that leads to protection. FPAS misses the point; numerous users are saying that this map represents Kurdish-majority areas. Perhaps it corresponds a bit with Kurdish-majority areas, but that's not relevant: editors have presented text sources saying "These areas are majority Kurdish" and presented the map saying "This is a map of Kurdish-majority areas", but unless the text sources specifically address the source map, they are irrelevant. Let's say you want to use a different map, e.g. one that highlights the provinces mentioned in the source, or let's say that you decide to exclude this map entirely; I'll have no comment and won't participate in making such a decision. Make such a change after protection expires, or ask any other admin to do it before then, and I won't intervene; ask me to do it before protection expires, and I'll happily do it without comment. The sole issue is presenting this map as what it's not. This is fundamentally the same as a situation I regularly encounter with US geography articles: US communities had their demographics from the 2000 census added by a bot in 2002, and since the 2010 census is more recent, I often see people putting 2010 data in front of the 2000 citation. Such a situation is hoaxing, because they're claiming that the source provides 2010 data when it doesn't. Omit it or use a 2010 source, and it's fine, just as it is to omit this map or use a different one. Nyttend (talk) 12:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
So in short, it is synthesis of multiple unrelated sources, correct?--Atlan (talk) 13:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
There's probably a hundred discussions happening right now on Wikipedia along the lines of "that's not what the source says". They're proceeding along without accusations of hoaxing, protection of articles, and threats of blocking. If you regularly tell editors who update stats correctly without updating the source that they're hoaxers then I'm surprised you haven't been hauled to ANI for this practice. --NeilN talk to me 13:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page (well, put back the semi-protect editing and full-protect move situation). Protecting a page where you are in a content dispute and then editing through the protection to win the dispute is misuse of the admin tools. Claiming that it was "hoaxing", i.e. vandalism, is very nice, unless (like here) no hoaxing is involved, only a dispute about correctness which should be handled on the talk page of the article (which you haven't edited during the last few months at least). Fram (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much Fram. Admins like you, NeilN and FPaS, just to name those who commented and took action in this case, renew my faith in this project. Take care. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 14:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Wait wait wait. I don't agree with many of Nyttend's actions here or his insistence, but Fram, saying that Nyttend is in a content dispute in this article is silly, very silly. Nyttend reverted what he thought was a hoax--that's not "being in a content dispute". He made three edits to the article, ever; one cannot possibly believe he was in a content dispute, as if he had something Kurdish or Turkish at stake. Seriously--I feel for Dr. K and Athenean, and Nyttend's feet should be held to the fire, but accusing him of something he obviously didn't do is unproductive and, duh, unfair. Drmies (talk) 00:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
If it were remotely reasonable to think this was a hoax, that would be a legitimate point. But that's what's concerning about this. He shouldn't have even thought that this was a hoax per WP:AGF. But not only did he assume bad faith and decide that it was a hoax, but he has repeatedly defended the accusation based on some twisted reasoning that even if the caption was accurate, it misrepresented the given source, thus it constituted "hoaxing". This apparently doesn't make sense to anyone, but even if he were convinced that this was a malicious hoax, that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't, it was a content dispute that he inserted himself into while simultaneously executing an involved administrative action. And, while good faith mistakes happen, has refused to acknowledge any sort of overreaction, or wrongdoing, or misjudging. He appears to continue to stand behind all of his actions 100%, even in spite of ample feedback. Swarm 01:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, I think it is remotely, or somewhat nearbyly, reasonable to think this a hoax; I wouldn't have used that word even if I saw what he did. But you, Swarm, you have to assume that he reverted etc. in bad faith. I mean, if he thinks it's a hoax, it's not a content dispute; it's as simple as that. And I think Nyttend is from Ohio, and I hope he's not an OSU graduate because that would be even more problematic, but I believe in his good faith. He may well be wrong in his thinking (and his stubbornness), but we're talking about content, and I just don't think you can pin "content dispute" on him. Thus you also can't pin "involved" ("favorite version", etc) on him. Now, the longer he stands by it the sillier he looks, but come on, making a person eat crow is difficult no matter how much mayonnaise you put on it. Sure he's going to have to get off the hoaxy horse, but the more we raise the stakes ("involved") the harder we make it for him to get down. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
No. Not remotely, not nearbyly, no it cannot be considered a hoax. Please see what Future Perfect at Sunrise said to Nyttend originally: "Wait a moment. Sorry Nyttend, I've undone your closure here. First, please don't keep using the term "hoaxing", that's not what we're dealing with here. The person who first added the map, Athenean, [25] had just previously also added a sourced textual description [26] that said that "Kurds make up a majority in the provinces of Dersim, Bingol, Mus, Agri, Igdir, Elazig, Diyarbakir, Batman, Sirnak, Bitlis, Van, Mardin, Siirt and Hakkari, a near majority in Sanliurfa province (47%), and a large minority in Kars province (20%)." I haven't seen anybody challenging the correctness of the sourcing for this sentence. I assume that Athenean believed in good faith that the textual description enumerating those provinces matched the area described in the map, in which case his use of the map with the "majority" caption would have been legitimate. If he was mistaken in this assumption, overlooking that there might have been some factual differences between the two areas, that would make it a case of inadvertent source misuse, but not "hoaxing", which by definition would have to be deliberate. Certainly this should have been hacked out on the talkpage." If an admin has to accuse veteran, good-faith editors of such a terrible thing as perpetrating a hoax he should investigate thoroughly the facts the way FPaS did. If he did the due diligence exemplified by FPaS's response details the conclusion would have been not possible to be a hoax. But Nyttend chose the witchhunting route. That's irresponsible of an admin. Coupled with his brutal attacks and block-for-edit-if-you-dare taunts on my talkpage his behaviour in this incident is inexcusable. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 02:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying he's right, Dr.K., or that he acted properly in regards to you and Athenean... Drmies (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Drmies, I know you too well and you made yourself abundantly clear in your previous statements for me to think otherwise and I have read your clear statements in that regard as well as your closing statement at ANI for which I sent you thanks. I just wanted to address the asymptotic limits of the hoax argument. Also my examples were not meant in any way toward you. I just added them to show what I think is the larger picture of this admin's behaviour toward myself and the other editors. My respect for you as an admin and editor would preclude any misunderstanding on my part. Take care. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 15:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I appreciate that and I hope you know that one disagreement on one part of the event doesn't mean I condone what happened. I also hope Nyttend will respond. Take care, Drmies (talk) 17:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Doc. But there is no need for the clarification. I knew that from the beginning. All the best to you too. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 17:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I mean let's get real here. He comes to my talkpage calling my replies to his attacks "agitation" and concluding Further agitation will be ignored.. Who talks like that to a fellow-editor? What is this place supposed to be? A prison? And who does he think he is? A prison warden talking down an insurrection? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 03:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Then we have the other gem: The edit-you-get-blocked dare: Baiting me with an edit-for-block combo: If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block. Is this where things have come to in communication between editors? It is clear from these examples, and unfortunately there are many more, that this is not an isolated example of bad behaviour but a multifaceted and determined attack on myself and the other editors whose menace shows no signs of abating. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 03:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, labeling an edit a "hoax" is much like labeling an edit "vandalism" or "sockpuppetry"'s an inherent assumption of bad faith and should not be done unless it's justified by evidence. I quite simply don't see how you can look at an edit that was performed by a long-term, highly established editor in good standing, and label it a bad faith action (I.e. a hoax). You should just not do that, per AGF. It really is that simple. Making a bad assumption of bad faith does not exempt one from the expected standards of conduct...even if done so sincerely and with good intentions. It really doesn't matter if he genuinely thought he was justified, because he was wrong, and should have realized it. His actions were inappropriate, and while he needn't be punished for this incident, I'm not going to make excuses for him. He could have at least given a modicum of consideration to the people who were questioning his actions, and in refusing to do so isn't living up to our standards of conduct. Not trying to unduly tear the guy apart, just saying. Swarm 06:48, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) with Fram The map is not the source. The map is just a convenient illustration which contains all the provinces that have majority Kurdish populations. The fact that there are majority Kurdish populations is supported by a separate reliable source which names these provinces. But Nyttend instead of AGFing or simply stating his opposition he goes ballistic, misusing protection edit-summaries to advertise that good-faith editors are hoaxers and performs ANI closes accusing an editor that he is a hoaxer. Thankfully he was reverted by admin Future Perfect at Sunrise who also explained to him his unjustified use of the word "Hoax" to attack established editors. After I politely asked him on his talkpage that in view of FPaS's explanation if he could change the protection log edit-summary to remove the word hoax, he came to my talkpage to accuse me of "tricking the reader" and block-bait me by telling me "if I wished" he would unprotect the article but he would revert and block me if I changed the caption. He also called my good-faith responses to him "agitation" and said that he would not respond to it further. All in all this administrator has been abusive to several veteran editors including myself. He also abused the edit-summary field of the protection log to attack good-faith veteran editors. Further, at the time of my reversion, I reverted the sockfarmer because he was an obvious sock of Lord of Rivendell whose SPI I had created. Per Wikipedia policy all such reverts are justified. It turned out the sockfarmer was an even older sock since 2007 with almost 100 socks. I had not seen the exact details of the map at the time. But I trusted the editorial discretion of my fellow editors. In summary I think Nyttend is out of order in this case and he should cease attacking longstanding veteran editors this way. He also abused his admin capacities by reverting to his favourite version and using protection edit-summaries attacking other editors where they cannot respond to his attacks. That simply is not fair and it is also an abuse of admin tools. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 14:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend should instead encourage editors at the talk page of the article to either find a better source or replace the map. His rationale for keeping the current caption was never even explained. This whole source discrepancy issue was raised by him for the first time just a few minutes ago. Neither have I ever heard him provide a different avenue to solve the caption issue. Its been either "you revert me, you get blocked." The discussion at User_talk:Dr.K.#Turkey highlights his approach towards this entire issue up until this very moment. Nyttend did not once provide any user an avenue to express his concerns over the current caption. Instead, he pushed his agenda with the same refrains:

If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block.

Further agitation will be ignored.

You added a demonstrably false claim, i.e. a hoax.

At this point, it isn't about the caption. That's a secondary issue. This is about an admin using and abusing admin tools to force his "opponents" to have it his way. His approach has been to dismiss each and every user, threaten to block them, overtly ignore their concerns, and force users to accept that they're somehow hoaxes. Meanwhile, he has not given any user an avenue to provide an explanation as to why this map and its corresponding caption should be there. Why, for one, is such a discussion happening at WP:AN, WP:ANI, or even User_talk:Dr.K.#Turkey? All his comments about the map and the source for it can be easily handled through discussion at the talk page, as it is done in a common fashion throughout Wikipedia. But taking this approach has caused more problems than solutions. Étienne Dolet (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • PS: Thankfully Fram made a note in the unprotection edit-summary that cleared the hoax allegation, so s/he repaired the damage caused by Nyttend. I am grateful to him/her for that. I seek no further action against Nyttend, unless this becomes a pattern. But I will AGF that it will not. Despite the problems he created he is still a veteran editor with many articles under his belt and I respect that. Thank you all who commented in this thread for helping sort this mess out. All of you take care and let's go back to writing some articles. :) Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 14:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately Nyttend does not seem to get the idea. He went to my thread of a thank you note at Fram's talkpage to repeat the same attacks and to chastise him/her for correcting his attack at the protection log of Turkey which also doubles as abuse of his admin tools. His edit summary was Your actions will long be remembered. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 20:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Everything about Nyttend's actions is actually fine IMO apart from the accusation of hoaxing, which is a bit intemperate. It may be POV, but it's not hoaxing as such. This is an occasion for saying "oops, my bad" and everyone getting on with something more productive. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Disagree entirely. I find Nyttend's behavior to be unacceptable and bizarre. Just because a caption does not perfectly match up to a source does not mean there's a willful attempt at deception going on, and per this little thing called WP:AGF, such assumptions should generally not be made. I know, AGF is a difficult concept, especially for an admin. The map and caption were added by an established editor in good standing.[27] This same user later raised the issue on the talk page, in a reasonable, good faith effort to provide the most accurate information in the article. He gives a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why the caption was not demonstrably false as Nyttend says, and suggests that it's a little more complicated than that and that a new map might be better. Nyttend has not responded there. Nyttend's labeling of this as hoaxing is not only a flagrant violation of AGF, but an unfounded personal attack. His repeated attempts to defend the accusation are nothing short of shocking. Now, that aside, he quite clearly and blatantly committed an act of administrative abuse by full protecting an article and then reverting to his preferred wording with the bad "hoaxing" rationale. Even if this was a good faith attempt at providing accurate content, it was absolutely unacceptable to take involve himself in an edit war after full protecting the article against said edit war. WP:INVOLVED can be dicey sometimes, sure, but this is not a gray area. This is basic stuff. If you're in an edit war, you sure as hell don't action that edit war as an administrator. And if you full protect an article due to an edit war, you sure as hell don't involve yourself afterwards while no one else can edit! He clearly involved himself and thus could not be considered an uninvolved administrator who could fairly mediate the edit war, and yet when an admin correctly unprotected the article, he left a rude, borderline harassing message on their talk page with what could be interpreted as a threatening edit summary.[28] I have never had anything but a good impression of this user and I am frankly blown away by what I'm seeing here. In this very thread, he holds true to the accusation of hoaxing, when he's dealing with veteran editors in good standing and gives no indication that he understands why he might not be anything other than 100% in the right. I think he should stop being overly-defensive reconsider his hardline stance, drop the bad faith accusations, and refrain from using the tools while involved, and we'll all be better for it. I hope he does so because he's certainly better than this. And, while I'm absolutely not suggesting that a case is needed over this, if an administrator fails to acknowledge complaints about their conduct in a community forum, it's a matter for ArbCom. Swarm 00:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
At this point, I would sincerely like to know how is it going to be possible to work with an admin who is upholding such grudges and bad faith assumptions against fellow users. Ideally, I would love to have good faith restored. But Nyttend is not dropping the stick. The Sword of Damocles still hangs at Turkey. The block bait technically still stands there. His bad faith assumptions were never retracted and has only continued. But more importantly, who's to say his actions here wouldn't be similarly applied elsewhere? Does this not merit further measures to prevent such problems from recurring in the future? Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Editing through protection you (Nyttend in this case) have placed to install your preferred version automatically makes you involved in the content dispute. Unless its to remove an obvious BLP or other policy-violating material. Once protected, the page stays still until discussion about content has been resolved on the talk page (or the protection is removed due to the disruption stopping). This is a basic tenet of how protection is meant to be used. The 'hoax' rubbish is just bad faith accusations to justify a side in the dispute. This is not the sole instance recently of admins making misunderstandings of what constitutes involvement in a content dispute. Perhaps someone should write a manual.... Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:58, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, are you willing to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article" exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again? I would remind you that, as with all cases where an administrator is involved in a content dispute, a request posted at WP:AN asking for an uninvolved administrator to look into the situation and take whatever action is required almost usually results in action within minutes. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Good suggestion. There is clear abuse of admin tools here: Reverting after protecting the page. Block-baiting established editors is also unacceptable. I have seen admins desysoped for less. Perhaps refer the matter to Arbcom if there is no resolution here? I also note I have posted at length at Talk:Turkey regarding the content issue. I note with disappointment that Nyttend has so far not participated. Athenean (talk) 20:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
What resolution are you after? Arbcom would be either for an egregious act of behavior or an established pattern of abuse. I don't see anything that warrants desysopping. He was not involved in a content dispute and I believe that he reverted based on what he honestly believed. That others might disagree with him did not suddenly involve him in a content dispute. He responded initially at this ANI thread and then later this one, He made two edits to the protection status of an article and one edit to clear up something that he thought was wrong. Fram's characterization that he was involved and trying to win a content dispute is wrong ("Misuse of protection to win an edit war") entered in the protection log. Nyttend wasn't participating in an edit war. His role as an admin was not compromised by those actions. I do believe that there is room for improvement in the discourse with other editors and that things should have been handled a bit differently but the debated edit was reverted. What else is there to do here? The regrettable part that might be viewed as abuse comes from the discussion threads thereafter. I do think that he should consider apologizing to Dr. K.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
It appears that Nyttend's answer to the above question is "no".[29] There seem to be three alternatives at this point; ignore a clear misuse of the tools by an admin who has stated that he indends to do it again, a brave and uninvolved admin giving Nyttend a short block to make it clear that the community takes WP:INVOLVED seriously, or a trip to arbcom with the probable result being the same as when Kww refused to back down after making an involved action. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
He wasn't involved and I don't see why editors keep trying to label him as being involved. Before he protected the article, he didn't have a dog in that fight did he? What am I missing?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
What Berean Hunter appears to be missing is the expectation of WP:PREFER: "When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies, such as vandalism, copyright violations, or defamation of living persons. " (emphasis mine). By selecting other than the version at time of protection, Nyttend mixed administrative and editorial functions, hence the perception of involvement. NE Ent 13:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Can we put the stick down now? See WP:Editors have pride; it's applicable although written from a slightly different context. The action has been reversed and a bunch of folks have provided explanation as to why the consensus here is it was an involved action. It is not necessary to harangue a mea culpa out of Nyttend, it is simply necessary they don't do it again. This might take some time for reflection on their part, and that is difficult to do when you feel like there's a "witch hunt" against you. NE Ent 22:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

This edit does not appear to be made by an uninvolved admin. Especially when his position concerning article content was reaffirmed right after that revert. Meanwhile, hurling accusations of hoaxing and claiming that certain users should "Not to be trusted whatsoever" is very serious. This did not occur towards just one user, but many. Which leads me to believe that it's a precarious pattern we are dealing with here. I wouldn't push it so far as to seek an alternate forum to solve this issue if it weren't for the overt refusal to get the point. It's Nyttend who should drop the stick. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:13, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Frankly not responding to this thread is not a refusal to drop the stick. Bringing up the same examples over and over again is. Either submit a proposal for community input regarding Nyttend's actions or bring the case to a higher authority. The constant back and forth here is going nowhere. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Etienne: I had not seen the diff you added. It is worse than you describe. Nyttend has escalated this further. He is leveling WP:NOTHERE against the editors he disagrees with: more concerned about personal attacks than presenting a truthful article, you're not here to build an encyclopedia. Assuming such a level of bad faith against reputable, longterm, veteran editors is a clear sign that he is not fit to be an administrator. Also his punchline It's not surprising that you'd seek sanctions against the admin who sees through your sham and tries to enforce our policies against you. disingenuously concentrates and attacks his target editors while blithely ignoring the wide criticism he has received from his fellow admins. He obviously sees himself as a man on a mission for WP:TRUTH while his opponents are NOTHERE. He also implies he can only see through the "sham" while his fellow admins are dupes. This is a dangerous state to be in when you have the tools. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend isn't belaboring the point. How can you suggest that he is involved? He didn't reaffirm a content position...he was explaining his admin actions. Those are two entirely different things. Show me the diffs where he had been involved in this previously. Show me where he takes a position in editing in this article. He responded to your request for an admin. How dare you suggest that he was involved and let that stand as if it were so? Patently false...and you should know better. Anyone who thinks he was involved cough up some diffs from before that request was made. Show us that he was involved in a content dispute. Don't show me the one edit to the caption after the protection..that isn't it. If you think that is involved then you don't know what that means.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Here's my diff. Who is that calling Nyttend to come to the talk page?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
So reverting to a version he preferred after he edit-protected the page is not a misuse of admin tools? And then threatening to block anyone who reverts him while hurling accusations of bad faith because he does not understand the complexity of the issue? I have seen an admin resign because he was about to be desysopped for exactly this kind of behavior (ChrisO, if anyone remembers) Athenean (talk) 02:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
He wasn't reverting to a version "he preferred". No abuse of tools here. The bullshit mis-characterizations are going to earn someone a boomerang soon. Bad faith some of you have, you've earned that characterization well. I'm not defending all of his actions and words here but if you guys are willing to misrepresent things and let it stand then I can see why he wouldn't be too quick to apologize. Invite him to the party and then throw him under the bus? Nice.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:16, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Berean, you're mixing two separate situations here. That comment was in reference to continuous insults by an SP IP account of a user already blocked for similar insults. I said "see the TP" because that user was socking and continuing to personally attack users there. I never said he should participate in a discussion at the TP. As for the current situation, Nyttend's concerns regarding the map can easily be made at the talk page of the article. His concerns over the map is reminiscent of any other content dispute in Wikipedia. "That's not what the source says"-like discussions are very common when it comes to content disputes in Wikipedia. Threatening to block anyone that disagrees is also a way of pushing his position without referring to simple talk page discussions. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Are you saying that you believed that he was involved and then you requested his assistance there?...or were you calling what you thought was an impartial admin?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:26, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Berean, I asked for Nyttend's attention because he himself had already blocked the very user I raised concerns about at ANI. And again, I told him to see the TP because the user he had blocked was socking and continuing his personal attacks. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) There is absolutely no ambiguity in "If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block." Whatever he did before or after this statement makes no difference, although even that seems far and away from best practices, threatening, baiting, in this way is far beyond the pale. It took me less than 30 seconds to see Dr.K. has been editing heavily here for nine years has over 80,000 edits and one block, of slightly over five hours duration seven years ago. This is not the profile of a hoaxer. An admin is supposed to exhibit good judgement and de-escalate situations not double down when questioned or when they make an error. And never, ever, I repeat ever threaten a long term, good faith editor, in the way quoted.

I genuinely do not understand why this is still open. We do not tolerate users going around accusing editors of vandalism repeatedly when they have been told it was not vandalism — they get blocked. We should not tolerate an admin doubling down on accusations of experienced editors supporting hoaxes when they have received amble community feedback that they are in error, or threatening editors when they are questioned. Block him for 20 minutes to get his attention or press on to ArbCom if no one is willing to do even a symbolic block to indicate that this behavior is not acceptable. JbhTalk 02:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much Jbhunley for your kind words. Ironically my single block was for reverting a hoax Greek name "Ιάσπερος". "Ιάσπερος" does not exist, it is a hoax. But the blocking admin did not speak Greek and apparently could not Google either so I got blocked for edit-warring. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 03:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
The bullshit mis-characterizations are going to earn someone a boomerang soon. Bad faith some of you have, you've earned that characterization well. Berean, this opinion is shared by many editors in this thread, including admins. Fram unprotected Turkey on that basis. Are you saying they are going to be boomeranged as well and that they have bad faith? Or are you reserving the honour just for Nyttend's targets? By the way, thank you for your decent comment about Nyttend apologising to me. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 02:41, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I've already stated that I think Fram had it all wrong to promote the idea that Nyttend was involved in an edit war. No one who has researched this properly can make that conclusion. If they hold onto it then they need to produce diffs to back it up. My defense of Nyttend here is strictly about people accusing him of being involved as a reason to try to get him desysopped. He didn't use his tools inappropriately. He wasn't a participant in an edit war that suddenly decided to whip out the tools and use them. Anyone that calls him involved hasn't done their due diligence and they will need to justify that. I'm not defending the discussions thereafter and I do think that he was heavy-handed in the conversations. If it were me, I would apologize to some folks about that including you. I'm trying to separate the wheat from the chaff here...let's dispense with the involved accusation and get to the crux of the matter. It is about what he said and not an abuse of the tools. I see some folks as trying to skew the evidence because they want a certain outcome. I feel apologies are in order.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Berean. I think Nyttend has abused the tools by using the protection log to accuse good-faith editors of hoax creation. He has also said that he sees similar actions in US articles when editors use maps for highways with newer stats. Therefore he has already made up his mind regarding using newer sources with older maps. That's an editorial position of his which he tried to impose on Turkey while at the same time using his tools and protection log edit-summaries to attack his opponents. That, imo, makes him involved. But even if we assume that his edit was not involved, his abuse of the edit-summary field to accuse multiple longstanding editors of hoax creation is abuse of admin tools. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 03:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Honestly you could toss out the involved accusations all together and this is still really bad behavior from an admin. Put aside even the editing through protection and unblocking a sock. What the hell is with the horrible lack of AGF and strong arm tactics? Hoax? Really? With the editors involved and the talk page activity about the map and source in question? It would have been resolved shortly. None of the involved editors are hoaxers. The fact that Nyttend just wouldn't drop that stick is bizarre. That edit summary to Fram is just bizarre too. Dr. K was ready to extend AGF but Nyttend keeps doubling down. Why? From what I've seen Nyttend seems to be an all-around good admin. Don't go down the Kww obstinance road. Everyone has bad days. Days where the BS you put up with all day just boils over and you just say enough and take a stand. This ain't the ground to make that stand on. Nobody involved was damaging this place, intentionally or not. All that said, everyone take a deep breath, get some sleep, whatever. ArbCom is not needed here. There's no pattern of abuse as far as I know anyway. I think everyone here is big enough to not demand some grudging public apology from someone who feels put upon. Chalk it up to a bad day. We all have them. If this behavior crops up again then a case is warranted. For now? Let it drop. Nobody is doing anyone good here. Capeo (talk) 04:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Capeo. In an ideal world I'd be totally in favor of dropping the case. I'd even consider dropping it now. However, my concern is whether I will, in the future, be able to work with an admin who upholds a variety of bad faith remarks against me and various other users. From what I see, there's a serious concern of a lack of AGF on Nyttend's part. And it ain't going nowhere. How else are we to restore AGF among fellow users and admins? I'd argue that it would be quite difficult to do that by dropping the case now under an environment like this. But don't get me wrong, my AGF towards Nyttend will always stand. However, it takes two to tango. And if that's not going to happen, then what else can be done? Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict) I knew I had seen an issue with Nyttend editing through his own full protection to restore a preferred version before this. It is in this discussion [30] and it is a large portion of the discussion involving long term experienced editors. I can not locate the diff of the complaint but the text is "...and made improper use of editing through full protection. I am disappointed that Nyttend has not commented here, nor acknowledged that some of us have raised these concerns." and the edit time is 10:28 am, 6 February 2015 on ANI. The diff given showing editing through full protection is [31]. As near as I can tell from a brief scan of that thread he did not comment or address community concerns there either. I have not looked for any other similar instances but the concern has been raised before and he did not take on board community concern for that practice. JbhTalk 06:14, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The link of your quote is here. The full quote of the sentence is: As I said above, those administrative actions reflected significant misunderstanding of policies, including NPOV and BLP, as well as misunderstanding the scope of the RfC discussion, and made improper use of editing through full protection. I am disappointed that Nyttend has not commented here, nor acknowledged that some of us have raised these concerns. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 06:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Call for close[edit]

There appear to be four possible courses of action at this point:

[A] Ignore this situation, let the discussion die out, and let the archive bot clear it away.
[B] Find that there was no misuse of tools.
[C] Give Nyttend a short block to make it clear that the community takes WP:INVOLVED seriously.
[D] A trip to arbcom.

There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus for [B] or [C], nor is further discussion likely to produce a consensus for either.

That leaves [A] and [D], both of which are best served by closing this discussion.

Therefor, I move to close this discussion with a finding on no consensus for any administrative action. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

  • C D I wish it was C. There was a similar instance of editing through his own full protection back in Feb. that I just mentioned above. he did not participate in that discussion either and that makes me very concerned he is unwilling to accept community feedback. That is, in my opinion, a big problem and it should not just be swept ignored. JbhTalk 06:19, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • We all have to abide by the consensus of the community, no matter what our personal positions are, and a quick scan of the discussion above shows that there is a fair amount of support but no consensus for C. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Then D it must be. The threats and unwillingness to admit error, to the point of continuing the accusations, makes dropping the matter a non-starter. I probably would not !vote ArbCom if he had just dropped the matter without acknowledgement, I would not respect that move as admin's are supposed to be better than that to maintain community trust but I would not say it needs ArbCom. That he has been called out earlier for similar behavior (Inappropriately editing through protection) is an issue for me as well. JbhTalk 13:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd favor D since there's a lingering lack of good faith that's very unpleasant. I find that Arbcom is the only avenue to overcome that problem since it would promote further discussion and inquiry. C would be an alternate option to that. But a block would teach nothing and would might be inflammatory. The goal here is to move on. But first, let us do it in a comprehensive and thorough manner so that these issues will never resurface again. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see abuse of admin tools on Nyttend's part. I do see poor communication and lack of understanding of the participants' positions, mainly because of the tenacity of clinging to the term "hoax", but I don't see a problem in his edit/protection as such. When protecting a page, admins have an amount of discretion in choosing a "status quo ante" of an edit war, and if an admin believes that one version has been conclusively shown to contain an obviously disruptive source distortion, I believe it is fully in their discretion to choose that version. Nyttend may have been objectively mistaken about the severity of that perceived source distortion, and he was most definitely wrong about his charge of deliberate distortion, but I don't see any harm in implementing the edit he did (more so because the version he chose wasn't in fact detrimental to the other editors' position; there can be no doubt that the wording chosen is actually one correct way of representing the source.) Fut.Perf. 07:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

That still does not address his abuse of the protection edit-summary ("Hoaxing by multiple people" and "Rv hoaxing") to attack good-faith editors. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 07:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
...Or edit-summaries such as "Not to be trusted whatsoever" towards fellow users. I mean it's one thing if a disruptive editor like Heimdallr of Æsir says that about me, but it's entirely different when an admin of over nine years of experience says it, especially without a tinge of remorse afterwards. Indeed, any average user would have the good faith in believing that an admin so experienced and reputable would be right in saying that. And that's why I'm personally quite uneasy about that remark. And I'm sure others, who have been hit with similar comments, are too. Such remarks of bad faith must be curtailed, especially when it comes from admins because their comments are generally more influential within the project. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

'How about E?: being that Nyttend just says, "Hey, I fucked up a little bit. Sorry." It never ceases to amaze me around this place in how so many simple disputes could be averted with a little humility. Capeo (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Capeo but I think that someone who attacks a fellow-editor as a hoaxer, block-baits him and calls the replies of his target editor "agitation" and tells him that "further agitation will be ignored" is and has been on a power-trip so high that there is no possibility that he will land back to reality without being desysoped. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 07:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Without agreeing or disagreeing with the above comment, I will note that I asked Nyttend[32] to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[33] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again. His response was "no"[34] and thus E is not an option for us. I wish it was. I would also note that Kww was offered the same choice by arbcom, and if he had simply agreed with the overwhelming consensus of the community concerning what is and is not an exception to WP:INVOLVED he would still be an administrator today. I hate losing admins this way when the desysoping is entirely avoidable by simply agreeing to follow the consensus of the community. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • i obviously agree that there is an entirely legitimate complaint against Nyttend's actions here, but I think he has received ample feedback regarding this incident, and even if he's unwilling to admit that he was wrong, I assume he will consider it and remember it in the future in order to avoid a similar problem from happening. I also entirely trust that he will not hold onto a grudge against any of the editors he has come into conflict with, even if he's given such an impression. If this discussion was somewhat successful, we will all move on to continue working on the project and Nyttend will not repeat this mistake. That's the real goal here and what I think the likely outcome will be. If this discussion is really unsuccessful and Nyttend refuses to listen to any of the editors here, and exhibits more problematic behavior (which, again, I do not anticipate in the least), then obviously AN is an ineffective forum for dealing with it and it should go directly to ArbCom. Either way, I agree that this discussion should be closed as it's clearly achieved the most it's going to, which is outside input and feedback. There's no consensus that it needs to escalate further at this time. Swarm 07:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I would be the last editor to disagree with you Swarm as I respect you, your opinions and vision for this project. But although I will not oppose in any way your opinion out of respect, I admit that given his behaviour so far, including his edit-summary to Fram Your actions will long be remembered, it is very difficult for me to believe that Nyttend is the type that will either learn or forget any time soon. In any case, your rationale for closing this debate is correct. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 07:49, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I understand entirely why you feel that way and I don't think you're being unfair, as that comment essentially constitutes a threat on it's face. But I'm willing to assume that it was a defensive overreaction as opposed to a genuine threat of lasting bad faith towards Fram. People can get very worked up and defensive when overruled or questioned, even if they know they were wrong. It's a natural human response that I myself can be guilty of. I think and hope we can let that one go, and if I'm wrong, well, WP:ROPE is a very real thing. Swarm 07:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Swarm. I will take your opinion strongly under consideration. You have almost persuaded me that you are right in every respect. Take care. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 08:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) @Swarm and Future Perfect at Sunrise: (Or any other admin) I respect your opinions here quite a bit. I linked an ANI thread I from Feb where it looks to me that similar improper use of tools to protect/create a favored version of an article happened. In this case it also involved closing an RfC, editing the article beyond the scope of the RfC and against established consensus to agree with his view, protecting the article when challenged and then editing through that protection to return it to 'his' version. The thread closed with no consensus and no input from Nyttend. I will not put you on the spot by asking whether he was right or wrong there, what I would like to know is if, in your experience, I am way off base to consider these two events similar enough to consider this incident is the equivalent of "more problematic behavior... [that] should go directly to ArbCom." Swarm mentions above, just in relation to the Feb case.

    I guess the TL;DR is the earlier case was kicked down the road, is this similar enough to be a 'here we are again' event? I would like an admin's perspective on this because you are the people with the actual day to day experience and I just see some fraction of the 'mistakes'. JbhTalk 13:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

This is the thread I am referring to ANI Archive 269 - Edit exceeding the scope of the RfC. The editing through full protection is brought up first at 5:42 pm, 4 February 2015 and continues from there. JbhTalk 13:41, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Call for patience[edit]

There is no temporal crisis here and no deadline for resolving an AN thread. The goals here are: making Turkey the best possible article for readers; ensuring editors are comfortable making good faith edits without inappropriate sanctions activities from those with administrator bits; ensuring that as Nyttend proceeds forward he continues his good administrator work with full appreciation of nuances of involvement, page protection policies and admin accountability et. al. At this point would benefit the discussion is more editors reviewing the situation and offering non-accusatory, policy based viewpoints. NE Ent 13:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend maintains he did nothing wrong. There is no other support for this position but there is some support that he did not misuse his admin tools. If a similar situation happens again go to Arbcom and let them sort it out. My two cents. --NeilN talk to me 13:46, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
NE Ent, I don't think there's a better forum to handle those issues other than Arbcom. Étienne Dolet (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Nyttend stepped out of line here and compounded it with petulance. It's bad enough that he doesn't seem to understand what hoax means, and that he used it in bad faith against long-term contributors in good standing, but the fact that he is not acknowledging that and refuses to reassure the community that it won't happen again is a problem. Editing through a page protect is a problem. Making veiled threats of retribution is a problem. Failing to follow WP:ADMINACCT is a problem.
I'm not sure if this rises to a level of WP:ADMINCOND worthy of an Arbcom case, but at minimum, I would expect a clear, public acknowledgement from Nyttend that he understands what he did wrong and will strive not to repeat similar breaches. I would also note that this is not the first time that Nyttend has used his admin privileges contrary to community norms. A couple of years ago, he unblocked a homophobic IP troll and justified it by misrepresenting the reason for the block. He utterly refused to consider that his unblock was improper in spite of substantial opposition to his action. - MrX 16:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I asked Nyttend[35] to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[36] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again. His response was "no".[37]
I will ask again, in the hopes that the additional input from the community or additional time to reflect has changed his mind:
Nyttend, are you willing to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[38] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again?
If I see anything resembling agreement, I will support closing this as being resolved with no action required. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Guy but I doubt this will happen for the reasons I enunciated above. In fact, however regrettable Nyttend's actions were at the beginning of this incident, his most recent reply, the one you linked above, contains two more escalations: WP:NOTHERE directed to one of his target editors and WP:TRUTH. This looks to me like escalation, which is the opposite of any type of acknowledgement or agreement. In fact TRUTH is almost never used by experienced editors as WP:V is the central criterion. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Of course there's no such exemption, and so I won't ignore WP:INVOLVED because something is The Truth. "Presenting a truthful article" here means "presenting an article that truly reflects its sources", not some potentially unverifiable truth (as anyone can see if my comments aren't taken out of context); the caption probably reflects reality on the ground, but I don't know, because I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with the topic. It's verifiable that this map's source image is labelled "Kurdish-inhabited areas", and it's verifiable that such-and-such areas have Kurdish-majority populations, but without additional sources commenting on the map itself, it's not verifiable that the map's boundaries are identical to those of Kurdish-majority populations — it's original research. That's why I said somewhere (I wish I could remember where, but I don't) that if someone wanted to delete this map and replace it with one based directly on the provided textual sources, I would do it as soon as I had the chance (at the time, the page was still protected), regardless of what the sources said; I'm not a partisan or someone attempting to ignore sources, just someone who's demanding that sources be represented accurately. Meanwhile, as I have not previously been involved in Kurdish matters, Turkish matters, or matters with these editors, this was not a WP:INVOLVED situation. I simply responded to a ordinary ANI request, observed that the situation was otherwise than described by the requester, and took actions identical to what I would have taken had it been on any other unknown-to-me topic or any other group of editors with whom I've not previously interacted. Nyttend (talk) 21:13, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, how do you know that there are no additional sources regarding the map itself? How do you know I wouldn't provide one if you so requested? If you demanded them from me from the beginning, you would've gotten it. But you didn't give me and other users an oportunity to do that for you. Instead, you resorted to a "revert me and get blocked" approach while hurling bad faith accusations of hoaxing. Just look at the talk page of Turkey for once. We're discussing not only province by province verification, but we are also uncovering sources that state that the very CIA map depicts the Kurdish majority in that region. Also, my request at ANI doesn't relate my opinions in relation to the map at all. It was to stop uncessant edit-warring and personal attacks. All talk of the map should've been dealt with at the TP which is happening as we speak. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, do you still believe that there was Hoaxing by multiple people? This is my first question. I will submit a few more after you reply to this one first. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 22:28, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, unlike Dr.K., I am not going to comment on the content dispute regarding the map. I haven't bothered to look into it, but for the sake of argument let's assume that everything you say about the map is true, and your opponents are completely in the wrong. Given those assumptions, when you first saw what we are assuming was a hoax, you had a choice to take one of two policy-compliant paths. You could have entered into the content dispute as an ordinary editor, made your case, and followed Wikipedia's dispute resolution process just like any other editor would have to do. Alternatively, you could have entered into the situation as an administrator, giving warnings about user behavior that violates specific policies or guidelines. protecting the article, or imposing blocks for user behavior. As an administrator, you could also have impartially ruled on what the consensus is (whether you agreed with it or not) and implemented that consensus. You could have even reverted the article to a stable version if there is one. What you couldn't do is mix the two, taking sides in the content dispute (remember, we are assuming for the sake of argument that you were 100% right concerning content), editing the article and posting talk page comments supporting your side, while at the same time using your administrator powers on the same article. You need to pick one. You can be an editor, fighting for what you believe the content should be using the same tools available to any ordinary editor, or you can be an administrator, dealing with user behavior and not article content.
You say "I'm not a partisan or someone attempting to ignore sources, just someone who's demanding that sources be represented accurately", but those on the other side of the content dispute concerning maps -- some of them veteran editors -- say the same thing. That's why we have RfCs and other forms of dispute resolution -- to determine which side in a content dispute is following the sources and which side is not. When we elected you as an administrator we did not give you a supervote on content disputes about maps even if you are right.
If you continue on this path, there is a very good chance that you are going to be brought before arbcom. If that happens, I am reasonably sure that they will give you the same offer they gave Kww -- admit your error and commit to not doing it again -- and if you continue to dig in your heels they are likely to desysop you so that you don't have a choice about whether to use your admin tools. I implore you, please look over this entire thread and see how many people are telling you that you are in the wrong. Go ahead and say that you think they are all wrong but will follow the consensus, but please stop indicating that you will do it again in a similar situation. Nobody here wants to lose you over this. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Since you insist, I note that I will not do the same thing again in a similar situation. I already said this a few days ago, but on a user talk page, not a project page; it's not like you would have seen it. Quick note, there was no relevant consensus; no discussion happened, just an ANI post. The whole problem is that it was a content dispute in which the perhaps-in-the-right side was misusing sources. I invite anyone to explain, for example, how this kind of statement would be accepted in an FA review, where they check sources carefully and don't permit you to attribute a likely-to-be-true statement to a source that doesn't say so. Nyttend (talk) 23:45, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
[Edit conflict] Again ignoring the details of the content dispute, I accept the above and strongly recommend on the basis of the above that this be closed with no action required, and I strongly advise against anyone here going to arbcom with this. If anyone does, I will comment saying that this was resolved at AN. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
NOBODY PLEASE RESPOND HERE because I'm in the middle of drafting a note to Étienne Dolet. Nyttend (talk) 23:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
No such user exists. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
It was just a typo; his signature is Étienne Dolet even though his username is ÉtienneDolet. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
[Note that this response was completely rewritten; I started by saying that there weren't sources about the map, and then I realised how wrong I was. My note of 23:45 was written before I realised my error.] EtienneDolet, I deeply apologise. I had not looked and therefore was not aware that you'd already presented sources talking about the map itself. Had I known that, I would never have taken any actions in this situation: it wouldn't have been appropriate for me to block the other guy, since I'd recently filed a sockpuppet request against him, and of course it wouldn't have been right to levy sanctions against anyone on your side. I hope you understand that this would have been appropriate had I understood properly, i.e. if the only information we had about the map was the page where we got it, your actions would have been a fabrication of the source, a false statement (i.e. a hoax) about what was in the source. This is why I consistently considered your and others' actions to be hoaxing. Of course I now realise that you did the right thing, and I well understand that you and others were quite right to be angry. I never intended it as a method of joining a content dispute; I hope you understand that, and I ask your forgiveness for my recklessness. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Guy Macon, since you're talking about a no-action-taken close, what about "No action taken, because Nyttend now realizes that he recklessly misunderstood the situation and humbly apologizes"? Nyttend (talk) 00:01, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, I accept your apology in good faith and in turn I want you to know that my confidence in you as an admin has been restored. I consider the matter resolved including any behavioural issues I may have raised about you. I wish you the best going forward and thank you again for restoring not only my confidence in you but also the good opinion I had of you in the past. Take care. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 00:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Well said, Nyttend. Let's close this thing now. Capeo (talk) 00:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Thank you Nyttend. —Sladen (talk) 00:13, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend, while I am happy that the content dispute has been resolved, AN does not deal with conduct disputes. The reason this should be closed is because, while you still thought you were right, you made a commitment to either enter into a dispute as an editor or as an admin, not both as you did here. I believe you and trust you, and am confident that you won't use your admin tools in a content dispute even if you are 100% sure you are right. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:14, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need an admin[edit]

Owing to a difference of understanding about unused file-redirects I tagged a number of these as G6, which as has been pointed out doesn't actually apply :(. I've done a mass revert on the most recent batch I'd tagged, but it will need an admin to restore the ones that were already deleted, these are of two sorts :-

  1. File redirects listed here - Wikipedia:Database_reports/Unused_file_redirects
  2. Files which were attempted cleanups after file moves to eliminate. (A number of these may well have been under CSD#F2 or FNC#9

I am also asking for removal of file-mover as I seem to have exceed the competence required.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the file mover user right per your request. I am a bit busy right now and can't go through the deleted articles. I do appreciate that you brought this to our attention and are willing to step back until you are better acquainted with our arcane policies. HighInBC 17:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Have also made a request at WP:REFUND here

I should know stuff like this, I am after all a fairly infamous contributor :( Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I am also wondering if to appease the concerns about competence if I should request an account lock, given that as a seasoned contributor, I should have been much more careful. I've done a rollback of pending G6 tags, but can't rollback the already deleted items (which are nearly all the red-links here - [[39]] (

I am rather disappointed. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I am sure we can all move on, it is not that bad. HighInBC 18:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I urge that we not overreact. In a narrow technical sense, there was an error. If someone uses a CSD that claims it is uncontroversial and someone else disagrees, by definition, it wasn't uncontroversial. That said I'm not fully understanding why these redirects are needed. I thought a file move was followed around by a bot which updated the links. I'm told my thinking is incorrect. If I'm the only one that thought this I don't know where I got it. If we don't have one why not? Many of these redirects had no substantive incoming links, however, the deletion is contested because there might be a deleted file somewhere that if it's restored that has a link. It's a pretty weak argument, and only the fact that redirects are cheap makes it adequate.
It look like clean-up to me. I did a number of the deletions and restored those I deleted. I've been asked to restore the ones deleted by @RHaworth:, but I'd prefer that someone else step in.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • No mate, feel free to restore all the ones I deleted. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The technical concern expressed was to do with prior revisions which now contain the "deleted" item as gaps in a layout look unprofessional. Having seen some badly maintained web-sites, I would actually agree that it looks unprofessional from a design standpoint. However, related to this is the issue of how to resolve "eclipsed" files, I.E files at Commons that share a name, filenames that are close to others, and filenames which are clearly meaningless to humans.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. Redirects should be left for those reasons, and moreover because renaming breaks attribution when images are used on external websites. The exceptions are if the original filename requires redaction (see WP:FMV) or if a file shadows one on Commons. BethNaught (talk) 18:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
There's also the consideration of these [[40]], I'm not sure if there's an easy way for the report to recognise a Redirect/Commons vs a local image. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
25 more reasons you should have kept the filemover flag. Widr (talk) 19:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I think that User:Sfan00 IMG is overreacting. Some errors were made, but they are easily reversed. I don't see any abuse or misuse of the filemover flag, so I'm not sure why Sfan00 IMG requested removal of that flag. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Agreed. Even if it was a massive deal for these pages to be deleted, I think the onus is on admins to check whether a csd tag is valid or not; I could tag any random article with any random csd tag, it's more the admins fault than mine if the page is deleted. This is of course a more obscure case, and I'm not blaming the admins for any major wrongdoing, I had no idea that this was an issue before now either. Sam Walton (talk) 10:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Need a history change[edit]

Can an administrator move these three edits from Program for Action (New York City Subway) to User:Epicgenius/sandbox/4, where these edits originated? The three edits are currently part of the history of Program for Action (New York City Subway), which was moved from User:Epicgenius/sandbox/4, but I made these three edits in the sandbox. Although I'd prefer that these three edits didn't show up in mainspace (which wasn't my original intention), it's fine with me if something else is done instead. Epic Genius (talk) 19:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Jenks24 (talk) 21:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Epic Genius (talk) 21:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Notice: Proposed change to WP:INVOLVED[edit]

Discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Administrators#Proposed change to WP:INVOLVED --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Discussion was closed already, by NE Ent. Kraxler (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
And I undid the close. You are not allowed to make a comment opposing a proposal and then immediatly close it, especially when it is only hours old and there is an active discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


Is there any chance of giving a link to this in the watchlist notice, so we can get some proper discussion? Adam Cuerden (talk) 10:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Who is compiling databases for pageviews now[edit]

Currently, I am unable to get responses about the current pageview tool at However, the operation is ongoing and continues to compile although occasionally, it seems that I need to leave a reminder. When I leave a reminder, I get no response, but work seems to get done. Now, I have a request at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Missing_stats_dates that needs a response from someone who is compiling or can compile the necessary databases. I am getting no response there. I am also getting no response at Wikipedia:Help_desk#Pageview_database_needs_some_administration. Where else can I go to find people knowledgeable about compiling our databases?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:45, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Aaron Rodgers[edit]

Closed per author's request. (non-admin closure) --Stabila711 (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can someone add this information into the article Aaron Rodgers where it mentions his career highlights and rewards since its protected:

Thanks! -- (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC), you should make edit requests on Talk:Aaron Rodgers and you will need a more reliable source than another Wikipedia article. Look at NFL Top 100 Players of 2012 and you might find some sources. Liz Read! Talk! 19:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Found one: [41] — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC) I'm closing the discussion. -- (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commissary spam[edit]

Admin consensus that Huon's block was a good one.  Philg88 talk 08:51, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just blocked Special:Contributions/, an IP address apparently belonging to the Defense Commissary Agency, for adding linkspam to Wikipedia despite warnings. That IP isn't on the "contact the WMF immediately" list, but with the general deference given to the Department of Defense in the US (which apparently led the Commisssary employees to believe that "I am NOT spamming, I am doing this for the Department of Defense" would be a valid excuse), I invite other admins to review my block. Huon (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Good block. Those links serve no encyclopedic purpose. We don't invite every soccer club in the world to add a link to their "team store" to their club article. --NeilN talk to me 20:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree, since the agency is on the periphery of the DoD. Spam is spam. Miniapolis 20:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Endorse block. Possibly being done in good faith, but fairly obviously their additions do not meet our external link guidelines. Unblock if they promise to stop and not do it again, obviously. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Procedural question - Can an identical edit be made to hundreds of articles with no discussion or consensus?[edit]

This discussion was started at WikiProject Politics, which stemmed from two threads at the Help Desk.[42][43] In short, an editor unilaterally made a contentious change to a date in hundreds of political articles without ever starting a discussion. So my question is very simple and is about the process, not the editor: Is someone allowed to make a contentious edit to a very large number of articles without getting consensus? If not, should the edtior be required to revert himself until the matter has been resolved? Czoal (talk) 22:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, editors should "be bold" if they think that something is going to be uncontroversial. If it does later turn out to be controversial, they should stop and garner consensus before continuing. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC).
Concur with Lankiveil. If we all had to ask for "permission" first before doing something that someone somewhere might disagree with, WP would consist of a single blank page. BRD is an an essay describing an optional process that it self-describes as useful for some editors some of the time. It was pretty recently savaged in WP:VPPRO when someone proposed elevating it to guideline status, and it is frequently abused for patent WP:FILIBUSTERing. While most of us agree to use that methodology, when we think a revert has potentially rational reasons and a discussion could be warranted, it's not a policy violation to decline. As OlEnglish notes below, unless the attempts at improvement were obviously actually controversial (and WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a real controversy), its better to initiate discussion than revert. BRD is basically a last resort. Assume on WP:AGF that changes are intended well and as an improvement. If we assumed that repetitive changes across multiple pages were a problem, categorically, WP:AWB would not exist. If someone is generally using AWB other other mass-edits to do something against a clearly established WP:Consensus that has not changed, or it doing it is clearly disruptive ways, lodge a complaint about it at WP:ANI, and expect drama. It is not WP:FAITACCOMPLI to use ABW to make a bunch of trivially complex changes that are just a trivial to undo to with an equal-but-opposite AWB run. Fait accompli involves shaping content to fit an editorial agenda with the intent or effect of pre-emptively short-circuiting consensus formation, in a way that is hard to back the encyclopedia out of.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
As per WP:BRD the matter should get resolved first, before making any other reverts. See also Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary#Avoiding or limiting your reverts -- œ 05:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

@Czoal: @Lankviel: @OlEnglish: My apologies for only spotting this thread now.

On the procedural issue, the "fait accompli principle" adopted in several ArbCom decisions reflects that "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." (See, for example, here.)

On the substantive issue, although this issue is a perennial challenge and I have largely given up fighting it, March 4 is unambiguously the correct answer. See the evidence I provided here in 2006. I will cross-post that link in the project-page thread. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

  • I haven't seen yet any of the "hundreds of articles", could you post a link to a few, USER:Czoal? Fact is that thousands of congress bios were originally imported by User:Polbot (a bot) from the Congressional Biographical Directory which states March 3 as the end of term until 1933. Anything that was changed later (while cleaning up) to march 4, was done without consensus, and contrary to the sources. There were some discussions started by editors who think that the term ended March 4, none of which were formally closed, and all of which ended inconclusive. The present discussion, linked by the OP will have the same fate. The reason is simple: the issue had become controversial in real life (to clarify the point, the XX amendment was enacted) and debaters always mix up "term" and "session" and mix up events of 1791 with events of 1917 and then start generalizing. Obviously one can't do that, WP:OR is forbidden under WikiPolicy. I suggest some other sort of dispute resolution, since the RfC model has failed, so far, in this case. Kraxler (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Golpeie - me![edit]

Block evasion
Obvious block evasion is obvious. HighInBC 16:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Previous discussion at Special:Diff/683957721.

That naughty Future Perfect at Sunset is in trouble again. He's been removing content from the archives, something which is not done [44]. He's also been badmouthing she-who-must-be-nameless - again.

Eva Carneiro made a very telling comment on Friday:

I wonder whether this might be the only formal investigation in this country where the evidence of the individuals involved in the incident was not considered relevant. Choosing to ignore some of the evidence will surely influence the outcome of the findings.

No, Eva, it's not. If Future Perfect at Sunset put his case at the SPI page and if it was unprotected he would be shot down in flames. E a vida.

I think we should grade administrators on the number of policy violations they make per hour (p.v.p.h.). You know, an annual appraisal sort of thing, like they have in offices. Future Perfect at Sunset would come out top (bottom?) or very close. (talk) 15:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

So, do I gather that this yet another "Vote (X) for Change" sock? BMK (talk) 15:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) The diff provided does not show any involvement of the named editor, no evidence whatsoever supporting the claims made and to boot, the header is a pejorative. Can somebody please return the WP:BOOMERANG? Kleuske (talk) 15:41, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
In case anyone missed it, let me note that the heading that the IP user emplouyed for this section, "Filha(o) da puta", means "Son/daughter of a bitch" in Portuguese. LjL (talk) 15:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I've changed the title to something more appropriate. BMK (talk) 15:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
IP is a clear case of block evasion. Note that both originate from London, UK and use the same style to make "reports". —Farix (t | c) 16:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Any admin willing to throw this boomerang back? GABHello! 16:42, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm restoring this thread for three reasons:

(1) Elockid has not edited here since April Fools' Day, and this appears to be more foolishness since the policy he quotes is irrelevant.

(2) there is no provision in policy allowing contributions of editors who are not accused of sockpuppetry to be removed.

(3) per User talk:Zzuuzz#User "seems" to be a banned user, etc none of the participants is a sockpuppet anyway. (talk) 09:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

More socking, reclosing. BMK (talk) 10:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Note to Elockid - Beyond My Ken thinks every IP editor is a sockpuppet. (talk) 13:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I note that Beyond My Ken struck out the words

per User talk:Zzuuzz#User "seems" to be a banned user, etc none of the participants is a sockpuppet anyway.

Apparently Beyond My Ken values his own opinion more than the consensus of the community. Could that have something to do with him being a hardened sockpuppeteer Special:Diff/340605845#Ed Fitzgerald and his sockpuppets? Among the aliases he has used are Before My Ken, Beyond My Ken, H Debussy – Jones, Edfitz and Ed Fitzgerald. He was "outed" on the internet. He posts a blog and tells his followers:

I will come to your house, kiss you on the forehead, bathe your feet, and cook pancakes for you, with yummy syrup and everything.

The following snippet, posted on 30 January 2006, is worth passing on:

This year, both Groundhog Day and the State of the Union Address fall on the same day. As Air America Radio pointed out, "It is an ironic juxtaposition: one involves a meaningless ritual in which we look to a creature of little intelligence for prognostication and the other involves a groundhog." … Correction: I should have made clear that the Air America comment dates from last year, 2005, when Groundhog Day and the SOTU address coincided.

He had a barney with Future Perfect at Sunset, as did most people here Special:Diff/236814331. Future Perfect at Sunset made it clear what he thinks of the community:

I hereby state that I will consider this whole RfC null and void, and will permanently refuse to take anything said on it by anybody into any consideration, as long as Jerry’s signature is found anywhere on the main page.

– Future Perfect at Sunrise 15:40, 2 September 2008.

Cf Jc3s5h: THIS POST DOES NOT EXIST before nuking it from his talkpage.

In case anyone didn’t get the message,

– Future Perfect at Sunrise 08:06, 3 September 2008.

An editor has criticised Favonian in connection with the operation of filters. This criticism may not be justified. As PMDrive1061 observed at 01:27, 30 January 2010:

Is it just me or are the 4chan kids back in force? I’ve been seeing an awful lot of garbage on the new user log with the usual stupid attacks and alternate spellings of profanity which they think will keep them from getting blocked by the filters.

Transferring here as Bbb23 has stifled discussion at ANI. (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
More socking. Amortias (T)(C) 22:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request admin review non-admin close[edit]

This was worked out amicably. HighInBC 02:14, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  1. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Last Voyage of the Starship Enterprise, the debate was closed by editor SSTflyer with rationale: "The result was Keep. Early close per snowball clause." DIFF
  2. I am most grateful to SSTflyer for the closure, but since it was nominated in the first place by an admin -- could another admin please write a more detailed closing rationale, below the close of SSTflyer ?
  3. I'm in the middle of a Quality improvement effort on the article itself -- and I'd much appreciate it if we could have a solid explanatory closing rationale posted by an admin at the AfD page -- so I don't have to worry about wasting my time on the Quality improvement effort.

Thanks very much,

Cirt (talk) 01:16, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The standard for a non-admin closure is that it be non-controversial. This one seemed fairly one sided. The snowy nature of the close is unusual for a non-admin however I would say as long as the snowball close itself is non-controversial then all is fine. Detailed rational is often useful but it is not uncommon to omit it when the result is clear. HighInBC 01:34, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
If you want, I can vacate my original closure and relist this. sst 01:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Either relist, or a comment from an admin at the AfD page itself regarding endorsement of the early-WP:SNOW close, either way. HighInBC, if you could help out with that, it'd' be most appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 01:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it needs any endorsement, as far as I can tell nobody is complaining about the validity of the closure. If someone does wish to take issue with its validity then SStflyer has graciously offered to vacate their close. I don't see any problem to be solved. HighInBC 01:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Okay well I'd rather not waste my time on a useless Quality improvement project so I'd like a really solid close. Can it please be relisted, HighInBC? — Cirt (talk) 01:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems like a solid close, I don't think anyone is going to walk by and delete it. It was SSTflyer who offered to vacate their close, I am not going to do it because I don't see any problem with the close. HighInBC 01:56, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

SSTflyer offered graciously, and I've asked him to relist. — Cirt (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Done. sst 02:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you both, much appreciated! — Cirt (talk) 02:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Review of Reguyla (Kumioko) reblock[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Earlier today Kumioko was unblocked by Worm That Turned. This was done without consulting the blocking admin, Floquenbeam, or the community. These restrictions were placed upon him, one of which reads: "You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures." Kumioko's response can be read here. My query to WTT on blocking and his response can be read here. Upon reading this comment, made less than an hour ago, I blocked for one month. I see no change in Kumioko's behavior. Posted here for review. --NeilN talk to me 20:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Noting that I agree with the 1 month reblock and have declined the unblock request on those grounds. That said, I'd appreciate comments on the unblock - and also remind people that my recall process are certainly open on this matter. WormTT(talk) 20:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
As I stated on your talk page, I wish this had been brought to a noticeboard before the unblock. Yes, lots of drama would have ensued but we were going to get that anyways. --NeilN talk to me 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, what Neil said. A bold unblock, but really I don't quite see why this wasn't swung by the community first. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • It's a step in the right direction, but I'm stupefied as to why he was not indeffed. The thought of losing a wise and productive admin because of this makes me sick.- MrX 20:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Literally their first edit was a violation of the terms. Last time the community discussed this the standard was 6 months without being disruptive, an standard also not met. I think the block should be indefinite until the community agrees to their return, it was after all the community that banned this user and reviewed the ban in February giving clear terms. It is not for any one person to redefine terms set by the community, I think before this user is unblocked there needs to be a consensus to do so. HighInBC 20:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) A month seems a bit long, given it is a very new and short leash, so obviously I would oppose extending it. A week would make more sense, but I would rather have seen discussion with him before a block. Normally, comments like his wouldn't even get a second glance, and it is only due to the restrictions in place, which of course are there to prevent. Worm unblocked him originally, I endorsed that, and I think some venting will take place but we have to give someone the chance to get back into participating. More than a day, anyway. But yes, I think a block was at least one option in this circumstance. Dennis Brown - 20:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
As I said the above, he seems to be going off the deep end, so I guess this experiment in recovering banned editors is doomed. Dennis Brown - 20:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
(multiple e-c's later, there were only two comments here when I started writing this) Knowing that other individuals have mentioned discussion at Meta which I don't know about, and, on that basis, may have more information than I do, I am less than sure that I agree with the length of the block knowing what I do know, as I think some degree of venting might be understandable under these circumstances. So I might myself have chosen a shorter time, but, again, acknowledge that there are discussions elsewhere which might be directly relevant in this matter. And there is no way in hell I would support any discussion of recall of Worm regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Comments Unblocking admin should have known better that any return of this user should have gained an explicit approval from the community for all the disruption that Reguyla (and their previous incarnations) caused. To unblock on their own initiative, without consulting the blocking admin, and by devising their own exotic restrictions is well outside the admin discretion levels. If the unblocking admin does not realize their faults (including causing the blocking admin to resign their bits and depart the field of engagement with hostility) then I question the level of trust that the community holds them and their actions in. Second, the blocked user in question has in the past resorted to many actions that individually would have caused a lesser editor to have been blocked indefinitely (including "Fait Acomplis" changes, Personal Attacks, Disruptive Editing, and Sockpuppetry). I question at this time (in light of the short timeframe between being unblocked and the first violation of the unblock conditions) if we should go ahead and deliberate a