Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive312

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Identifying admins[edit]

Shouldn't it be possible to identify admins at a glance, by either looking at their User page or Global account information? soibangla (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  • I believe you can access the "View User Groups" link on the left toolbar. It isn't necessarily the easiest to read, but it gives you the information with one click. – John M Wolfson (talkcontribs) 17:36, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    Also, you can use this script to automatically highlight user names that have sysop rights. Schazjmd (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    That script changed my life, hyperbolically speaking. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I use WP:POP which tells me people's userrights on mouseover. —Kusma (t·c) 18:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)33333
    That's a wonderful script, thank you for telling me about it! – John M Wolfson (talkcontribs) 18:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    Nice, thanks! soibangla (talk) 02:16, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
I think there should be a clearer way to distinguish admins from non-admins. I've on multiple occasions been confused as to who has admin-status and who doesn't, in particular so when I was a new editor. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It is visible in Global account information (example). You have to look at their contributions and the link is at the bottom of the page. I also mostly use popups, which shows all the user groups as well as some other info. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    We should all stylishly add "admin" to our signatures.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    With a big red blinking light clown nose. - CorbieV 22:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • No. Adminship is no big deal. You should treat everyone with the same respect you would treat an admin (or an arb, or a 'crat etc.). You should treat arguments on their merits. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:47, 8 August 2019 (UTC).
That's not what I'm suggesting. Rather, I am aware that there are some long-time editors who attempt to intimidate others, especially newcomers, otten by invoking certain esoteric WP arcana. Their ability to do this would be diminished if others could readily see they are not admins. soibangla (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Does this mean we could have 'Crats gilded in gold, Arbs with peacemaker tags and Stewards with Fasces? Only Oversighters (with their creepy ass logo) would go unmarked, hiding in plain sight, the watchers in the dark. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with Rich Farmbrough. If administrator status was visible instantly, it would change the perceptions of less experienced editors when interacting with admins on routine content matters. Unless someone is acting in an administrative role, they should be perceived as just another editor. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It would also be a big neon (I guess there might be a way to make it flash as well) "please come troll me" sign. Admins get enough of that without advertising it to those who revel in that sort of thing. MarnetteD|Talk 22:47, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with Rich Farmbrough (and others here) that clear, obvious identification of admins would not be helpful to editors. I know I identify more as a common editor and an admin secondly. I put my admin hat on when needed but mostly I work in the poppy fields of articles. That said, I expect admins to be familiar with WP policies/guidelines and invoke them knowledgeably in discussions on boards like this one when necessary. When admins aren't familiar, I want to know that info. Many non-admin editors who participate here are fluent in policy nuance as well; some are not. It's a mixed bag. Trolling of admins, as MarnetteD said, is always a problem. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 00:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • My experience is just the opposite, the highlighting of admins name in light blue has been extremely helpful, and stopped the necessity of looking at an editor's user rights to find out if they're an admin or not. It's all automatic, and it's great. I was greatly exaggerating when I said above that it changed my life, but it has been very, very helpful to me. I recommend it highly. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:42, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • BMK, I wasn't aware of the highlighter until this discussion so I added it a few hours ago. It is useful in adding a level of info to reading discussions here. It is another tool to parse back-and-forth exchanges and points. I like that part. I do worry that it might, as someone said above, lead to bias. I know I want to be fair in my evaluation of arguments (and I think I am) because we're editors trying to make the 'pedia work. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 04:38, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Just FYI I use this script and it works well for me for this exact purpose. N.J.A. | talk 02:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • What Mark (and others) said. I am not always acting as an admin here: sometimes because I am INVOLVED at a particular page, and often because I am just being a content contributor like anybody else. If I had an "admin" tag on my signature it would appear that I am trying to intimidate others, or imply that my opinion matters more than other people's. The various scripts that have been mentioned here are wonderful for knowing who you are dealing with (established editor, newbie, admin or whatever). But we should not flout our status in everyone's face. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @MelanieN: I echo your sentiments. When editing articles and their talk pages, I leave my admin hat off. I'm an editor trying to improve articles and when in conflict, we try to work it out on the talk page. I never mention being an admin and work like any other editor, on structure, wording, and citations. Sometimes, though, another editor notices I'm an admin and reacts with some variant of ODD. Hilarious hijinks ensue. On these boards, the scripts are very useful. Now I realize how many admins are participating here I didn't know were admins. I like knowing who wields the mop and bucket. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 23:17, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I use the adminhighlighter but you may want to add this to your common.css:
    a.userhighlighter_sysop.userhighlighter_sysop { background-color: rgba(100, 149, 237, 0.25) !important; border-top: .05em dashed rgba(100, 149, 237, 0.5); border-bottom: .05em dashed rgba(100, 149, 237, 0.5); }
    a.userhighlighter_sysop.mw-changeslist-title { background-color: transparent !important; border-color: transparent !important; }
    That said, I do not believe that the default for users should be "show admins" specifically for the reasons cited by Rich and Cullen.--Jorm (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
    If anyone is interested, I created a fork of adminhighlighter, User:Galobtter/adminhighlighter.js that uses that nicer css and also caches the list of admins, so the highlighting happens much faster upon page load. Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • As to the original question, most administrators (9 of 10 I just randomly checked from ActiveUsers) do put Category:Wikipedia_administrators on their userpage (the 10'th had plain text that said something like "I am an administrator"), 6 of 10 used an administrator topicon as well. — xaosflux Talk 03:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • (two edit conflicts later ...) There is a template, {{Administrator topicon}} that puts an icon at the top right of the page to which it is affixed; see User:Ceyockey as an example. I'm of the opinion that every Admin should have this template on their User page. As for adminship being 'no big deal' - it's not, up to a point. Reality is that having admin privileges gives one the ability to do things which are completely not possible for standard editors to do from a technical point of view. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:06, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Good suggestion for their userpages. However it would be unwise to highlight admin signatures by default, as it would create a them-and-us feeling, especially amongst new editors. That said, I don't think any admin should be permitted to hide their status from those who choose to use scripts like adminhighlighter specifically to identify admin contributions. For example, I dislike the way Lourdes's signature doesn't display their admin status using that script (and have told them so). Nick Moyes (talk) 01:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Nick. You know I am an administrator but dislike that your script doesn't out my status?! Or is it that you feel other editors would be misled into thinking that I am just a normal editor (and that too because they use a script)??! And obeisance to this script should be, as per you, made mandatory? Laughable... (...On an unrelated note, I think your contributions across the project are pretty fine and I would hope you would stand for an RfA sooner than later). Warmly, Lourdes 18:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Answering for myself, I like to know who I'm talking to, and, unfortunately, cannot keep the names of all active admins in my head, so I too would prefer that your name was highlighted by the script. I do not quite understand why you would object to that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I think the pop-up method mentioned above would work well for editors like you who may want to know the admin status of other editors (rather than asking editors to change their signatures so that someone's script would work). Alternatively, you could contact the script maker to include forced highlighting, which would override backgrounds in signatures. But I would not prefer that, as the reality is that I don't want to be highlighted as an admin on a page where I'm interacting with fellow editors. Look at it from the other side – if I tell you that you should ensure that you include all your bits (autopatroller etc) in your signature because "I would want to know the bit status of other editors)", that won't probably cut ice with you. I don't know if you can get the emotion of the statement, but that it. Lourdes 09:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
No, sorry, you are incorrect - I would have absolutely no problem if my user rights were required to be listed in my sig. (I don't collect hats, but I've no trouble shwoing them if I'm required to.) I like the highlighting, and don't particularly like pop-ups. The ability to see -- at a glance -- who is and isn't an admin is what's useful to me. Extremely coincidentally, I was reminded only recently that you were an admin when I was browsing through the chronological successful RfA lists. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I've asked the coder of the script if forced highlighting is possible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Cool. Lourdes 02:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@Lourdes: You are quite correct: it would indeed be laughable to suggest that an admin should change their signature in order for one particular user-created script to work. But that wasn't quite what I meant, sorry. (that's the danger of one-thumb-editing on a mobile whilst under the sheets, trying not to wake one's partner at 2am!). To answer you questions: Yes, I don't like that the script I happen to use fails to reveal your admin status, but that is absolutely not your fault! I am not suggesting you are trying to mislead anyone about having/not having admin rights. But I don't happen to like how yours fails to display that you are an admin using the one script I have deployed. Maybe you can suggest a better tool to use? Is there any reason you feel justifies why you haven't changed your signature now that I have twice highlighted the issue to you, or do you feel it's better to not reveal your user rights? Mild humour: I do hope you are actually a 'normal editor', even if you also have admin rights but, more seriously, one way or another I would definitely welcome the option to choose to easily show which posts and warnings are from an admin/non-admin without having to resort to going off tangentially to checking the user rights log. So, I would very strongly support this being an option available for all users to select within 'Preferences', if they so wished. But I care not one jot about other user rights being visible in a signature or via a script. My apologies for picking on you as an example; it just happened to be the one that I knew and that irked me. Regarding the unrelated note - thank you - and please see this. (I genuinely welcome any constructive criticism (even off-wiki) at any time that would help me better prepare to serve the community in that role). Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 23:35, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. I'll check your talk page link out too. If you need a co-nom, feel free to ask. Thanks, Lourdes 02:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I've been using the highlighter script for a few days now and am liking it. Previously I just hovered with popups. But I'm finding that having the info there for most admins at a glance is useful. Thank you to everyone involved in developing, testing and refining it. - CorbieV 19:36, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I found the script helpful before I was an admin. There are several editors here who leap to a final warning to editors making mistakes, threatening to block them. It was useful to me to discover that they were empty threats and were not an admin. I'm not advocating more deference to admins but it is good to be able to see some intimidating messages as just bluster, not an actual threat to block. I still think the warnings should be taken seriously, but they needn't send new editors (and it's almost always warnings to new editors) into a panic. Liz Read! Talk! 19:53, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I use the script, and I find it immensely useful, not to judge the behavior by the status of the user, but to judge the user by their behavior. IE if someone is acting out, it's nice to know immediately that their an admin (or bureaucrat, etc). Vanamonde (Talk) 16:55, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Saxifrage[edit]

We have problem with Saxifrage (talk · contribs), a usually inactive legacy admin who recently closed a thread higher up on this page (Buffs, Indigenous Girl and CorbieVreccan) by supervoting a one-way i-ban into existence. A separate thread is open below that closed thread in which numerous editors have oppose the close and none have supported it, yet neither Saxifrage nor any other admin has actually vacated the supervote closure yet. When Buffs, the victim of this administrative overreach, went to Saxifrage's talk page to seek an explanation, he was greeted by a condescending attempt to shut down the discussion. Saxifrage has made at least two unfounded accusations of incivility against Buffs (see [1] and [2]), which are themselves actionable personal attacks. My final attempt to get Saxifrage to vacate the close was denied and meanwhile Saxifrage is content to complain about the way other editors are interacting with him. It's particularly galling to watch an admin abuse their tools, brush off the editor they have victimized, and then complain about how people are being mean to them (you know, by demanding accountability for a clearly bad use of the tools). We should not allow this type of behavior to continue unchecked, so what I would like to know is how to proceed in light of Saxifrage's evident failure to recognize why their actions are not acceptable. Saxifrage also appears unable to properly handle criticism of their administrative actions. Should this be escalated to ArbCom, or is this something we are capable of handling as a community? Lepricavark (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Further note: as I was composing this post, I received this lovely reply from Saxifrage in which he accused me of giving him orders (incorrect) and referred to me as an angry random person. Lepricavark (talk) 18:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
@Lepricavark: Please reword your comments and post them at the discussion above about whether to overturn Saxifrage's close. I don't understand why you opened a new thread. After you have "moved" your comments, you should remove this thread.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
On reconsideration, moving your comments probably doesn't make sense. Apparently, you've expanded your objection to Saxifrage's close to an allegation that Saxifrage has abused their tools/administrator authority. You're of course welcome to pursue that here, but my view is that you have no shown any evidence of persistent abuse, which normally is necessary to take action.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
It seems to me that less evidence is required, or indeed possible, in the case of a largely-inactive admin like Saxifrage. We have: 1) a misuse of the tools, 2) dismissive treatment of the editor punished by the misuse of the tools, 3) failure to heed those pointing out the misuse of the tools, 4) unsupported accusations toward the target of the misuse of the tools, 5) failure to properly distinguish between disagreement and incivility. Saxifrage's actions in this dispute have been troubling, and there is little recent evidence that this a mere lapse in otherwise good judgement. Lepricavark (talk) 19:08, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have been asked several times to take voluntary actions. I have declined. I trust that Wikipedia process will handle things the way they need to be handled, and I have no desire to short-circuit that just because someone repeats a demand that I do. So my demurring causes no problem of process.
The close review is ongoing and I've felt from the beginning should be closed by an uninvolved admin. I don't know why it hasn't been closed yet—perhaps passing admins have looked at it and decided it would be too soon, or that they are not the admin to write an acceptable closing summary. In any case, that's procedure working as intended. I have no interest in doing an end-run of it on demand.
I don't know Lepricavark from the proverbial Adam, and their insistence that I do what they, specifically, tell me I should do just because they've shown up out of the blue on my talk page is clearly silly. I have no intention of subletting adminship to random people showing up to request it, and those who do so angrily make me extra disinclined to do so. Standing firm that I am not obligated to accept requests is within my rights, so there's no problem of interaction there.
We have review processes specifically so that pressure tactics like these can be done away with on Wikipedia. They're harmful to the community and contribute to editing as blood sport rather than editing as a cooperative endeavour.
Additionally, resisting pressure tactics is a responsibility of admins. Anything reserved for administrators must not be given away just for the asking, let alone given away under pressure. I've never compromised my account by bowing to concerted pressure, and I'm not about to start now, especially when there is a process underway already for taking care of the very same thing.
In summary: There are plenty of admins on Wikipedia, and it's unnecessary to personally badger me to do it. Badgering anyone on Wikipedia, admin or otherwise, is bad for the project. Impatience is not permission for poor behaviour. That it isn't necessary nor appropriate to badger a specific admin to take voluntary action seems like it should be self-evident, and should not be controversial when it is stated explicitly. — Saxifrage 19:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but I think that your supervoting an unjust i-ban into existence is far worse than my perceived badgering which consisted of two posts on your talk page. If you want to talk about things that are bad for the project, cowboy admin conduct is very high on the list. Also, reversing your own decision, especially when it is an incorrect decision, hardly counts as short-circuiting the process. And it's interesting that you admit you don't know me from Adam, yet you are still prepared to make judgments regarding my emotional state. Lepricavark (talk) 19:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think Wikipedia operates on a "two wrongs make a right" principle. Thanks for acknowledging that it's a bad thing to do though. That considerable improves my first impression, if that matters any.
As for "angry", there are ways to request things that don't come off as angry to one's reader. It's not necessary to exclude the middle and grovel (and any admin that expected that shouldn't last!), but there's a awful lot of middle between that and coming in guns blazing (which leading with an ultimatum of capitulate or resign is). I really did mean to comment only on your approach, rather than your state of mind, which you're correct is not accessible to anyone. Minds being inaccessible in text, it is important to acknowledge that our words convey emotion though — as you noted, I have been coming off as pontificating, which you correctly identified as relevant to my posting. (For context, it's partly just how I slide into formality when discussing official things, such as reviews and procedure, and partly an intended tone to emphasise the "I'm really not interested in being pushed around, no really" message.) It didn't help that I had no concessions to offer, as I'd already committed to letting the review proceed independently, which I'm sure was frustrating and made it hard for me to meet you partway and do any of the defusing things that makes arguments smoother.
If this is a review of my adminship, that's fine. That's a concession I can give: many eyes make problems shallow. My account had an admin bit flipped because of community consensus, and the community consensus can unflip it. I trust procedure around here, and part of that is knowing that even if it's never perfect, it slowly approaches that ideal. I do hope that we understand each other a bit better now though, regardless. I'm likely to approach future clerking (if any) with extra caution, regardless of my feelings about my summary, so that's a net benefit, and I hope a useful reassurance. — Saxifrage 20:02, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Your inputs and "I'm really not interested in being pushed around, no really" are the problem. Consensus was unanimous that what you did was incorrect. You weren't willing to say "ok, I see your point" or even explain your actions. Your actions are open for review and, if someone asks, you should be able to clarify. It wasn't until 5 admins and a bureaucrat were involved that you provided any clarification...clarification that no one agreed with. That you're still unwilling to admit it was a mistake in the face of 100% opposition to your actions, I think that's an indication that you haven't learned anything from this. Feel free to correct me in any part where I'm wrong. Buffs (talk) 03:10, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • "We should not allow this type of behavior to continue unchecked." But it hasn't continued, let alone unchecked. As I said in the section above, I believe Saxifrage acted in good faith, and I don't think he "victimized" Buffs either. Lepricavark talks about how "galling" it has been for him to watch these events, and it is indeed obvious from his commentary here that he is galled. @Lepricavark: I think you're blowing this one instance of a supervote out of proportion. Supervotes are (unfortunately) not as uncommon as all that. They should be vacated, that's all, unless an admin makes a habit of them. Bishonen | talk 19:30, 10 August 2019 (UTC).
    I respect you too much to argue with you, and it appears unlikely that this thread is going anywhere in any case, but to clarify: I am more troubled by the behavior after the supervote than I am by the supervote itself. Lepricavark (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • As far as being in touch with community norms, or however we choose to phrase it, Saxifrage has made on average one edit a fortnight for the last decade; it's hard to see an experienced editor here, let alone a holder of advanced permissions. ——SerialNumber54129 19:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I must admit, I was a little surprised to find that their tools haven't been removed for inactivity – apparently it's 1 edit or 1 logged action in a year. Saxifrage has used: the block button once in the past 13 years;[3] the delete button once in the past 12 years;[4] and the protect button twice in the past 13 years;[5]. All up that's four admin actions in 12 years – they also hadn't edited this page for 13 years up to their close. I'm not at all surprised, after that little activity, that Saxifrage is out-of-touch with community expectations. That's not itself an actionable issue.
    Saxifrage's conduct on their talk page has been objectionable, in my opinion. I have significant respect for Bish, but I'm unable to view Saxifrage's conduct as being in good faith. Condescending is not a strong enough word for it, but I don't know of a better one. Some additional adjectives: snarky, patronising, incivil and bullying. There's also an air of smug superiority (see patronising again) in their comments. Putting myself in Buffs shoes, having just been bitch-slapped by a one-sided admin action, I'd have been upset. Dealing with Saxifrage and Mark Ironie would have made me livid – indeed that's entirely why I formally challenged the close. Honestly, I don't know how Buffs could have been better composed on Saxifrage's talk page. I can't say whether this should be escalated or not now; but I will say that if there's a repeat of this conduct, I'd be prepared to ask ArbCom to have Saxifrage de-tool-ed. Mr rnddude (talk) 21:20, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Overturn - Essentially this is a non-admin here .... 1 admin logged edit a year and one block in 12 years isn't an admin in my eyes, Overturn the close and allow it to be closed by an admin who's done more than 1 logged edit a year. –Davey2010Talk 00:58, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Nvm going blind. –Davey2010Talk 01:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • The action on WP:AN by Saxifrage was appropriately overturned. I'll abide by the consensus of the community on whatever the outcome is determined by an uninvolved admin who can assess consensus rather than assert a supervote. As for Saxifrage's attitude, IMHO, it's very clear to me that he doesn't understand his role as an admin. User:Mr rnddude's summary of these interactions is spot on re:Saxifrage and Mark Ironie. To ask "Why?" and to be told "I've been expecting you, but you shouldn't even question my decision or contact me. You're beneath me and obviously don't know what you're doing. Learn your policies: read this!" After quoting that the policies he mentioned stated that I should contact him, I was summarily ignored. For remedy, I propose a warning on his talk page that the consensus of the community is that he overstepped his authority and such actions in the future will be escalated. That's really all we need here. Buffs (talk) 16:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • comment - As I stated previously, I do not care what form an IBAN comes in. I really don't. I have removed articles in common from my watchlist with Buffs weeks ago and have not touched them. I have no intention of doing so. This is not a win lose game for me, if he wants them to himself [6] that's fine. He can have at it. I'm not about to 'game' [7] anything. I have not edited any of the articles since July 15th and prior to that on the 10th and that edit was in consensus with Buffs. I simply don't care. I do have a concern, however. I am not sure what an individuals political leanings have to do with their admin abilities. I understand that the close was not done properly and to everyone's satisfaction. I do not see how Saxifrage's assumed political beliefs ties into this. Editing and admining should be non-partisan. [8]. I am not sure how Saxifrage's decision can be attributed to political bias. It just seems, I don't know, mean I suppose to make these types of statements and underhanded in that they are hidden. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:35, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I found it exceedingly strange when Buffs (talk · contribs) put a hidden message in the "Request review of close" section (discussion closed now) a few days ago. <!--Likewise, have you considered that he WAS behaving in a partisan manner? MI, IG, and CV are all part of the same Wikigroup.-->diff ("He" refers to me.) The edit summary is rather opaque on the addition: (→‎Request review of close: rephrase to include the words I'd intended to use...wow...that was poorly phrased)) I have never seen this done on a noticeboard or talk page, only in articles for date format, etc. I decided to let it slide so the review could run its course without distraction. Pointing out Buffs' misunderstanding of how Wikiprojects work and function seemed petty as well. The one that Indigenous girl spoke of above seems more like commentary he doesn't want publicly visible. I'm having trouble discerning its purpose or audience. <!--I don't know Saxifrage's motivations for such a decision, but it is similar to others who openly support leftist/socialist ideals. If I had to guess, it's an attempt to silence conservative views rather than balance them within Wikipedia. No objective view of that discussion can possibly come to the conclusion that Saxifrage came to...to be blunt, I've never seen 100% opposition like this for an administrative action. In articles revolving around the humanities, such a bias is a significant problem. In universities, 95%+ of humanities professors vote for left/liberal candidates, and their work/conclusions reflect this bias.-->diff The only guidelines I could find were in the Manual of Style in Hidden text#Inappropriate uses for hidden text and Invisible comments. Inappropriate uses of hidden text offers this: "Using it as a talk page," the meaning of which I'm finding difficult to interpret. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 21:28, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It's not hard to imagine why an editor who has been unjustly blocked, t-banned, and i-banned might think that people are out to get him, and you have not helped matters by making disingenuous comments such as this one. I hope you aren't planning to derail this thread with more walls of text. Lepricavark (talk) 00:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lepricavark I have no intention of posting walls of text. I only posted twice, I believe, in the IBAN thread. I think that the issue folks have with Saxifrage can be handled without being sneaky. If somebody feels they are targeted for their political views, why not simply post it in mainspace? If they honestly feel that way then I see no reason to hide those concerns. I'm not trying to derail, this has to do with the matter at hand, which is Saxifrage, and hidden text in the thread. Indigenous girl (talk) 11:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I too would ask that you keep discussion concise and on point. This is about Saxifrage, not me. Saxifrage's political beliefs are prominently displayed on his user page. As for the hidden text. It's just more information. It doesn't need to be visible to make my point, but if people want more, it's there. It isn't even addressed in any guidelines, so please stop insinuating there's inappropriate behavior when none exists. Buffs (talk) 03:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @IG, I'd ask that you remove your remarks as these aren't related to the topic at hand: Saxifrage. Likewise, you cannot demand I not talk to you and then go to unrelated sections and make comments about me. If you want me to leave you alone (something I've done), stop talking about me. Buffs (talk) 03:23, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Lepricavark: You seem to be missing my point: Hidden text in a noticeboard comment is highly unusual in my experience. Yes, it's visible to anyone editing/contributing to the discussion but not to the casual reader. It is still passing strange. As to my comment on Saxifrage's talk page, do you think I just wanted to protect the close result? (Which was a complete surprise to me.) My response was purely about Buffs badgering Saxifrage. I had intended to stay away from the whole brouhaha of the close review (and did so after that comment) but I'd seen this behaviour far too many times over months from Buffs. There's a reason I apologized to Saxifrage: I was admonishing an editor on his talk page. This was impolite and rude of me, not to Buffs but to Saxifrage. You think my pleading with Buffs to stop was disingenuous? That it was mere self-serving about preserving the close? I knew there was a perfectly well-established procedure for challenging the close, one that Buffs could easily have found or asked about. Yet Buffs (and you) responded in very unpleasant ways on Saxifrage's talk page. Acrimony, incivility, bullying, and abuse-disguised-as-argument were uncalled for. How we react to adversity reflects on our character. I'm sorry if the length of my comments is too long for you. I value clarity. I don't write at length to obfuscate, to overwhelm with "walls of text". I write in an effort to be precise in the details. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 03:26, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah, Buffs using hidden comments was a little weird. I get that. But I'm one of those wackos who thinks it's a big deal when a user, in this case Buffs, gets picked on repeatedly by people who insist that, no, he's actually the bad guy. So I'm going to extend a certain amount of latitude to Buffs for strange behavior under the circumstances. IMO, it's outrageous that you can see an admin supervote a one-way i-ban into existence, the target of that unwarranted i-ban protest at the overreaching admin's page, and then you come to the conclusion that the targeted editor is the problem. Moreover, it is unacceptable for you or Saxifrage to insist on strict adherence to proper procedure for appealing a sanction when Saxifrage did not adhere to proper procedure when imposing the sanction. I don't much care for the 'do as I say, not as I do' attitude on display here. When I asked Buffs to stop with the walls of text, he did. Maybe that's because he is acting in good faith. Lepricavark (talk) 15:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm solidly involved here, so won't do it myself, but IMO this should be closed. Yes, it was an egregious supervote. Yes, it's bad that they didn't recognise consensus and undo the close themselves. Yes, their statement above insisting on wasting the community's time with bureaucratic paper-pushing process obsession makes it worse, not better. But no, this on its own is not the basis of desysopping for cause. GoldenRing (talk) 11:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
    I concur. Unless further information/examples are brought forward, a warning on his talk page is sufficient. Buffs (talk) 13:59, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment (involved) Saxifrage does not need to be warned. Nothing he did was "egregious". As one of the only uninvolved people here, he summarized the dispute as he saw it.Diff From what I can see, unlike most others who weighed in, he actually looked at the evidence. Then he was ganged up on over a technicality. He's been bullied enough already. There is no need for any warning. This has already been excessive. - CorbieV 18:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • If you think that a supervote is nothing more than a technicality, you should not be an admin. Lepricavark (talk) 22:08, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:Supervote is an essay, not a policy or even a guideline. Note this example: "if an XfD discussion has more "keeps" than "deletes" but the "deletes" are grounded in policy and the "keeps" are of the WP:ILIKEIT variety (or conversely if the deletes say WP:ITSCRUFT and the "keeps" are grounded in policy), it's not a "supervote" to close in accordance with a significant minority opinion. - CorbieV 23:07, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Great, an admin who doesn't take supervotes seriously. Lepricavark (talk) 23:23, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I would like to ask for a delay in closing the thread. I'm writing a response I'd like included in the thread. Thank you. Mark Ironie (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Many of the comments on Saxifrage here seem to devolve to "Burn the Witch." Metaphorically. There are quite a few adjectives being used to describe Saxifrage and his actions, many of them insulting and/or ad hominem attacks. I'm even seeing a level of "own-y" response from Buffs to the thread where, per usual, Buffs tells people what he wants them to do. Most specifically, he again tries to force Indigenous girl to interact with him, and focuses on silencing her,(comment to IG) as he has for several months.

There is a qualitative difference between IG's participation here and Buffs. She asked a question about the treatment of Saxifrage and the use of hidden text. Buffs, instead, addressed his comments directly to her, and complained about not being able to post on her talk page:(comment to IG). Though others have said things he considers "off topic" she is the only one he tried to order to delete her words, asking her to "remove your remarks". These are more of his same attempts at boundary violation and silencing he has shown towards her through this entire conflict. (Such as when he hid her remarks on article talk and declared the "discussion closed" after she posted a source.[9], right after he came off a block for harassing her.[10]] She has never done anything even remotely like this to him. This harassment has always been one way.

This is not off-topic; I'm drawing a parallel to reactions of outrage about Saxifrage's close of the discussion and his responses afterward. Yet the majority of opprobrium here is in the eye of the partisan rather than what Saxifrage actually said, objections to tone rather than content. Additionally, Buffs continues to post misrepresentations (or maybe he is this confused), in describing events, such as Buffs' description of this situation: "It wasn't until 5 admins and a bureaucrat were involved".

After Bishonen called the close a "classic supervote", that emerged as the main reason for overturning the close, invoked frequently from then on as if it were obvious and proven true. It was not a supervote nor was it proven so in my opinion.

It was a Boomerang.

Evaluating this case includes being able to pull back from details and get an overview of the material. Evaluating the evidence requires a frame of mind that makes sure things are aligned and consistent. It's a focus on whether wording and footnotes (or diffs) support each other. If there are contradictions, can they be resolved? So I tried to look at Saxifrage's close and how he might have gotten to the very detailed evaluation and decision he did.

A vociferous group showed up to contest the close and began a process of vilifying Saxifrage, here and his talk page. This seems based on Saxifrage standing by his decision and suggesting people use standard processes to overturn the close rather than demanding actions of him. Lepricavark demanded he vacate the evaluation/close or resign adminship, an exceptionally strong statement on a long and complex case I sincerely doubt he has thoroughly read. (For instance, Lepricavark has now posted in the original closed and unclosed discussion, to support Buffs in saying no IBAN is needed, citing Green Means Go as the voice of reason, but Lepricavark seems unaware that GMG has not only endorsed an IBAN, but has been an involved editor since the beginning of the conflicts.)

My point: if you back away from the case, look at the evidence without prejudice or partisan glasses, without choosing who's right or wrong, Saxifrage's close makes sense and is in line with policy and process. His subsequent responses to Buffs, GoldenRing, and Lepricavark were formal rather than informal. Any perceived incivility seems bought by the aggrieved rather than from Saxifrage (yes, I mean "bought"). For example, Saxifrage's first response to Buffs has been called uncivil and condescending (Lepricavark, opening at the top of this AN section.) Remember, Saxifrage had recently finished reviewing the long and complex AN thread before closing it. It seems to me that his review was thorough, including evidence of Buffs' interactions with people on AN and elsewhere. Buffs-as-victim was an integral theme from GoldenRing's opening post and continues to be the dominant narrative from several people here, blindly and despite all contrary evidence. Buffs showing up on Saxifrage's talk page was entirely predictable as was Buffs explaining the faults/lack in Saxifrage's reasoning in the close. Saxifrage expected it. When Saxifrage spoke of being "an admin who doesn’t take personalised guff,"[11] it wasn't lack of AGF as much as it was a recognition of Buffs' consistent and historical adversarial attitude. This was evident from Buffs' first post on Saxifrages' talk page where he ignored the quite detailed close text and tallies up !votes (his version.) This latterly painting of Buffs' behaviour as rooted in the justified righteous anger of the wronged is dissociated from actual events and facts.

There is a hard core of participants here that seem focused on vengeful retaliation on Saxifrage because he actually read the evidence and made a close based on what he saw. That, apparently, is horribly wrong. Impugning Saxifrage's grasp of policy and process is inexplicable to me. Saying he is out of touch with current WP norms and standards because of sparse activity levels is patronizing and condescending. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 01:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

That's a lot of text. I shall respond to the substance, of which there is considerably less, even if you tried to dress it up with fancy language. For someone who exaggerates the extent to which others use rhetoric, you sure use it a lot yourself. I don't see how this could possible be a boomerang. This issue was brought to AN by GoldenRing, not Buffs. It is of note that the only individuals who deny that this is a supervote are those who liked the outcome. Buffs, his defenders, and neutral observers generally held that it was in fact a supervote. You can say, if you like, that they are all wrong, but that seems unpersuasive given that your alternative description is false by definition. You are trying to present yourself as a neutral observer, but clearly you are incapable of arriving at that vantage point. I'm not surprised to see one out-of-touch legacy admin defending another, but I refuse to descend in your game of talking past one other in walls of text. I trust that any editors who consider it worth their time to read your novel will be able to form appropriate conclusions. Lepricavark (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
You're funny. You use "legacy admin" like it is a cabal, a protection racket. Your pejorative usage is not lost on me either, sort of "old and in the way" meets "quaint and old-fashioned". Perhaps unsophisticated as well, and a touch of simple-mindedness. You seem incapable of affording me WP:AGF or a reasonable facsimile of it. Because "fancy language" and "rhetoric". You don't have to agree with me and I don't expect it. My opinion is part of the discussion despite your denigration and insults. You might consider reining that in; aggression and denial are not persuasive points in debate. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 03:57, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
[A]ggression and denial are not persuasive points in debate - Excellent point. If only you'd apply it to your uni-dimensional, Buffs obsessed, wall-of-text bludgeoning of this thread and the one that spawned it. It doesn't matter how many words you write, or how detailed you get. Your assessment is transparently skewed. [I]ncapable of affording me WP:AGF - Don't ask to receive what you don't in turn give. Your "participants out for vengeance" bit is pure distilled ABF. I won't say you're out of touch, but you are definitely not without prejudice or partisan. [D]o you think I just wanted to protect the close result - I think you've answered your own question here. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Like Saxifrage, you have repeatedly failed to distinguish between incivility and legitimate scrutiny of admin conduct. You begin your statement with You're funny and then talk about how I've said pejorative things about you, even though it's true that you are one legacy admin protecting another legacy admin who talks and thinks a lot like you do. You talk about "aggression and denial", but that remark rings hollow as your participation here has been full of both. You've tried to present yourself as capable of objectively evaluating Saxifrage's closure... and you've arrived at the conclusion that everyone who disagreed with you was wrong (how objective!). On which of these bases should I assume that you are acting in good faith? Lepricavark (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I notice neither of you (Mr rnddude and Lepricavark) addressed any of the substance or points of my comment above. Instead, responses include rebuttals of my phrasing with extreme doubts about my integrity and veracity. Assertions that my relevance and even mere existence on WP is detrimental to the 'pedia seem like incivility to me. There is no substantial engagement with the pertinent issues I brought up, just shallow and empty attacks on me. In general, the contention that Saxifrage's close was a "supervote" lacks substance if anyone had bothered to read beyond the lede, such as this section of the essay. To be clear, Supervote is an essay and it is neither a policy nor a guideline. Even so, I think its application to Saxifrage's close is questionable, no matter how many people think otherwise. That's called independent thought. In the end, here, I might be in the minority of consensus on this point. That's OK. I'm comfortable holding a minority opinion. Counterpoint opinion is a necessary part of the process. We look for consensus, not unanimity. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't mind your claim to independent thought. I mind your claim to objectivity. I believe that we are in fact responding to the substance of your posts, and not merely the phrasing. Also, I don't recall asserting that you don't belong on Wikipedia, and I think it's actually uncivil of you to falsely claim that I said that (unless you meant it came from Mr rnddude, who also hasn't said such a thing). Indeed, I have not intentionally crossed the bounds of civility during this entire dispute, and I dare you to provide one actual quote to the contrary. Disagreement, even when expressed strongly, is not inherently uncivil. Prior to this incident, I don't believe I've ever seen any admin use the 'it's just an essay!' argument to minimize the severity of supervoting. Given your lack of familiarity with how this community perceives that issue, I don't see why anyone should accept your definition. There's an issue in the inaugural thread noted by two individuals (ironically, the two individuals whom you accuse of ignoring the substance of your remarks) that you have yet to address. It concerns your misrepresentation of evidence against Buffs. Please address it. (Note that this is a request, not a demand. You've gotten those confused in the past.) Lepricavark (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
MI, you're correct that WP:SUPERVOTE isn't policy. It IS, however, a definition of the term and what people are accusing Saxifrage of doing, ergo, policy or not, that is the definition of what happened and, furthermore, an explanation as to why it's wrong, rather than rehashing every single argument here. I concur with Lepricavark...your level of incivility is not helpful. I'd go one step further and say that as an Admin, you should know and act better than this. Buffs (talk) 15:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll add a "me three" to this assessment. If you assess IG's remarks as "She asked a question about the treatment of Saxifrage", you're being willfully blind; most was remarks about herself or misleading remarks/insinuation of malfeasance on my part unreleated to Saxifrage. Our interactions with Saxifrage are not because he is "standing by his decision and suggesting people use standard processes to overturn the close rather than demanding actions of him." Rather, it is because literally the first steps listed in "standard processes" specifically state to discuss with the closing admin and ask the closing admin to revert: WP:Closing discussions, WP:Supervote, and WP:ADMINACCT. Buffs (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@Mark Ironie:, what do you mean by "bought"? Buffs (talk) 19:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@Buffs: I see from your comments over on Bbb23's talk page that you are concerned that I am accusing you (and/or others) of legal crimes. I sincerely apologize if I gave that impression. Emphasizing the word "bought" was a mistake on my part. It was unclear, unexplained, and open to interpretation. What I meant is too abstruse for this discussion and I could not expect other people to understand it. "Bought" represents a transactional exchange of goods for money. On a different level, it means rising value of goods equals a rising value of investment. Thus, the more people "invest" in a specific outcome ("goods") of a discussion, the more rigid and intolerant of opposing views they become. My usage did not encompass an absolutely literal meaning of people and opinions being bought. No accusations of bribery or meatpuppetry, and I was not implying I believe in conspiratorial opposition here. I don't know why you jumped to accusations of legal crimes. I understand that you and some others here have a very low opinion of me and my views (e.g., this whole discussion) but, wow, this is a new level of lack of AGF for me. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
For the record, it didn't sound like an accusation of crimes to me and I'm rather surprised that Buffs arrived at that interpretation. As for the overall tenor of this thread, it has become rather unpleasant and we are not going to accomplish anything, so I'm bowing out. Lepricavark (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
It was rather unclear from the context, which is why I asked. You stated very clearly yes, I mean "bought" when you could have further clarified. From what I'm understanding now, you effectively mean "they bought into that argument". Prior to this explanation, your intended meaning was not discernible from your given remarks and easy to misinterpret/bring confusion. If it's too abstruse for this discussion, don't bring it up.
Please stop following me around. It's getting creepy. Buffs (talk) 22:37, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
"the majority of opprobrium here is in the eye of the partisan" "continues to be the dominant narrative from several people here, blindly and despite all contrary evidence" "There is a hard core of participants here that seem focused on vengeful retaliation"
wow, this is a new level of lack of AGF for me indeed 199.247.44.10 (talk) 07:06, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Please review this block[edit]

Will an uninvolved administrator please review the block I imposed and the subsequent discussion at User talk:Merge8productions? Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:50, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I endorse the block. The user is free to submit a proper unblock request, where their reasoning ought to be relayed in a concise and cogent manner. It is a promotional username, as far I can tell, regardless that the company is now defunct. El_C 18:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Good block. I think there's a substantial chance this person or persons is trolling us, because there's a degree of righteous indignation that I don't often see in genuine newbie. But even with AGF and all that, the block is justified. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:57, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Endorse block. Some contribs I pulled at random also seem promotional (or just odd), so there may be something on that front, as well. - CorbieV 19:38, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Jumping into this thread rather than creating a new one - could I trouble one of you all to revoke talk page access? The user is just continuing to post about how terribly they've been wronged and argue about whether their name is okay without submitting a proper unblock request. creffett (talk) 00:52, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Reblocked and notified due to the post block behaviour. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Paedophile redirects yet again[edit]

The discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive311#Paedophile redirects issue was closed and archived, and nobody disagreed with the comment "I think from the discussion above it is clear that article titles which label someone as a paedophile are not acceptable", but one of the redirects still exists and the discussion has been relisted. See Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 August 12#Angela Allen (paedophile). --Guy Macon (talk) 23:16, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

  • That's ridiculous. Angela Allen is a redlink so there's no need for the disambiguation anyway. Either delete it or rename it, utter stupidity. Black Kite (talk) 23:33, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Since the RfD is already going, let it run. And frankly, the subject in question has much bigger issues than a Wikipedia redirect. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:03, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Dicklyon requests clarification or lifting of restrictions[edit]

In the 2015 unblocking statement (when I did the "standard offer" return from an indef block for sockpuppetry), I was warned to not misbehave, with one wording at WP:AN and another at my talk page. I would like to get a clarification of whether either of these should be considered to be still in effect, and whether the one on my talk page is a "ban" against the work I have been doing for the last 4 years, and if so whether any restriction or ban could be appealed and lifted.

The particular statements in question were both made by User:Prodego:

User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here.

Per consensus at ANI I have unblocked your account, under the provision that you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves.

(my bold in both to highlight the relevant difference)

Why I'm here:

I don't recommend trying to wade through it, but reference WP:AN/I#MarcusBritish personal attacks, where Beyond My Ken tried to whack me with a boomerang. He proposed and argued to sanction me for making a lot of page moves over the last four years, which he says is evidence of my violating these terms.

In closing off that megathread, User:El C reminded me on my talk page to "to adhere to the terms of your ban, pending an appeal". I didn't know I had a ban (he clarified he meant what's implicit in what Prodego wrote on my talk page), but if I did, I hereby appeal, per his advice. The idea of avoiding "potentially controversial actions" is hard to imagine, but I do a good job of resolving controversy before making mass moves.

Background[edit]

As I stipulated at that AN/I discussion, since my 2015 unblock I've moved about 7000 pages manually, plus nearly 3000 via approved bot assistance, and hundreds (at least) more indirectly via RM discussions and RMTR requests. When BMK was not able to find or elicit any evidence of any of my mass moves being controversial, he invoked the wording of my "ban" to say that I'm prohibited from mass moves generally, not just controversial ones, and therefore I ought to be indeffed.

@Prodego:, the 2015 unblocking admin, wrote

In response to some discussion here, I am of the opinion that since so much time has passed without escalating to a block, User:Dicklyon met any restrictions from my 2015 unblock and that they are no longer relevant.

and later wrote:

I'd reaffirm that I don't think unblock conditions from 2015 are relevant at this point, and that it would be improper for an admin to block based on them.

Moving forward[edit]

The accusations didn't stick, but neither did I get exonerated. So I'm seeking clarification, having been a very active and usually quite good editor for the last four years (if you can believe the bunch of editors who showed up to defend me). If anyone here wants me to detail what some of the big masses of moves were about, and why they were non-controversial and a net improvement to en.WP, I'd be happy to elaborate.

Thanks for your consideration. My plan is to say nothing else unless asked, and I would assume that anyone who was part of the AN/I debate will preface their comments here with "(involved)" or something like that. Dicklyon (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Let's move past this, shall we? This exchange will produce more meaningless drama, and we've had our share.-- Dlohcierekim 13:41, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I did not try to "whack [Dicklyon] off with a boomerang" (which incidentally, has in the US a sexual gloss -- "whacking off" meaning "jerking off", which I'm sure Dicklyon did not mean), I assessed the discussion which had already taken place and concluded that MarcusBritish should be indef blocked (Proposal (B)) for this continuing incivility and personal attacks, which je was, and that Dicklyon had violated his 2015 unblock conditions, which were still in effect, by making mass moves, an opinion which had previously been expressed by a number of people in the discussion which had already taken place, and that the indef block should be re-instated. (Proposal (A)) I did not invent that argument out of whole cloth, and Dicklyon himself admitted to the mass moves himself.
    The locus of our disagreement was in our differing understandings of his unblock conditions. My contention is that what Dicklyon was told on his talk page, where he was actually informed of the community's unblock baseed on granting his SO request, was controlling, and that lannguage is clear: Dicklyon should "avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves." Since this was the official notification of his unblock, this should be controlling. This clearly tells him to avoid mass page move because they are potentially controversial. Dicklyon on the other hand, apparently relies on the language of the closing at AN/I, [12] to avoid "large scale controversial actions". Those two statements are indeed different, but only the one (the first) was officially given to Dicklyon when he was unblocked, and so should be controlling.
    Nevertheless, I have no objection to Dicklyon's seeking either a clarification of his unblock conditions or a lifting of them altogether. Editors here should read the AN/I thread in which the community (not Prodego!) granted him his Standard Offer request in 2015 (it's here [13]), read Prodego's official unblock notification ([14]), and at least try to pick your way through the very long, very convoluted recent discusssion ([15]), before evaluating Dicklyon's contributions over the last 4 years since he was unblocked.
    No, my only objection is to Dicklyon's ascribing to me a malevolent intent in floating Proposal (A), which was never the case. In any event, it's not relevant to his request, and I would ask him to stop these near-PAs snd to simply about his task of convincing the community that the sanction should be lifted. I don't plan to participate any further, so there should be no more reason for my name to arise here at all. This is not about Dicklyon vs. BMK, this is about Dicklyon making a request to the community. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
    Beyond My Ken, he did not say “whack off,” he said “whack” which carries no other connotation, and is a perfectly appropriate word to describe what happens when a boomerang hits something. This is not the first time you’ve misrepresented someone’s words on this page, so please be more careful. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:51, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Mr Ernie: You are correct, he wrote "whack" and not "whack off", so I have corrected my comment above. My error, and my apologies to {{ping|Dicklyon)). Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposal – lift ban[edit]

Any ban or restriction on page moves or controversial actions is lifted. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  • Support removing ban God, here we go again, but the gist of what I got from that horrid mega thread was that the ban is no longer needed. Not sure if everyone will agree with that, after all of the Sturm und Drang, but here it is. And yes, it was indefinite, meaning it requires discussion to lift it, not "oh, it was so long ago, let's pretend it isn't there." Probably Dicklyon should have appealed at some earlier time, but not everyone is familiar with navigating this toxic waste superfund site's peculiarities-- Dlohcierekim 12:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
    contra Andy Dingley, I think it was determined in the mega thread that his page moves were constructive rather than disruptive, his violation of the restriction was through misunderstanding, and that there were strong assertions there that the restriction had outlived its usefulness.-- Dlohcierekim 13:39, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
    per Dicklyon's request above, I was a part of that horrid mega thread, but my opinion changed from what it started as.-- Dlohcierekim 16:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. I agree. As the closing admin of the last God, here we go again, I've insisted on this appeal (and been criticized for that), but I felt I had little choice. Noticeboard consensus saw these restrictions placed and, in turn, such noticeboard consensus should see them lifted. El_C 12:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I don't think an unblock condition that results from ANI consensus becomes invalidated just because the closing admin feels it lapses with time or that they failed to properly log it (though the latter is a problem). Either the close is invalid, or it isn't. Either the time is specified, or it is, by default, indefinite. Still, I must admit that I viewed this as more of a formality and, in light of Dicklyon's voluminous contributions, I expected this request to be accepted without much friction. The fact that it is not, saddens me, and frankly, now I'm thinking whether for pragmatic reasons I should have closed with the unblock conditions lifted, even if it goes against the procedure of noticeboard consensus and its binding nature. Certainly, I don't expect Dicklyon to prove a negative with respect to their record for the last four years, but I think the fact that no reports (to my knowledge) were brought to the admin noticeboards which took issue with him violating the 2015 unblock conditions, speaks for itself. I, therefore, reiterate my support to have Dicklyon's unblock restrictions lifted and am hopeful his efforts to do so does not get curtailed due to unrelated past conflicts. El_C 18:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • topic ban I was unaware of your 2015 ban or any conditions regarding it, lifted or still applied. But for a period of some years since this, we have been in perpetual conflict where you have done everything possible to stamp out capitalisation. I have not sought you out over this, but you've popped up at areas of my own technical interest, from British railways to the Apollo CSM which you moved to the lowercase form [16]. Most recently you have done the same at one of Gibralter's unique pieces of Edwardian engineering, renaming "the Air Lock Diving-Bell Plant" as "an air lock diving-bell plant" just to imply that these things were commonplace and thus not capitalised. Everywhere I see you, you're campaigning to convert the capitalised proper name phrases of distinct items into uncapitalised generics: Talk:Air Lock Diving-Bell Plant. You have no knowledge of the subjects involved, you not merely excuse but actually flaunt your lack of knowledge and claim that simplistic wiki dogma on capitalisation overrides all other sources.
So yes, you have spent the last few years being perpetually disruptive, controversial and involved in mass page moves.
I'm only here because of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposal. I know nothing of previous restrictions, but as of now I would like to see a strong topic ban against these. And importantly, not merely for moves but also for renames within a page (advocating them in talk: space would be reasonable). I do not call for any sort of bans or restrictions on editing otherwise (but if others want to go that far, I'd probably support it). Andy Dingley (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lift any ban, if there is one. Every single editor on this site is expected to refrain from performing large-scale potentially-disruptive actions without first inviting discussion. Reaper Eternal (talk) 16:35, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per Reaper Eternal. — Ched :  ?  — 16:47, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Reaper Eternal. Indeed, "Every single editor on this site is expected to refrain from performing large-scale potentially-disruptive actions without first inviting discussion"; when one on many occasions hasn't refrained, however, it sometimes becomes necessary to explicit-ify that which should be obvious. Happy days, LindsayHello 17:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I have been asked for examples of potentially disruptive actions; i apologise, Dicklyon that it has taken a while ~ work, you know.... So, there is this, where the conclusion was no outright ban but clearly Dicklyon was on the verge of disruption. And this in which multiple reverts, while well-intentioned, were disruptive. And this, where it is argued that he had violated unblock conditions with controversial moves (hmm, familiar). I think that the nub of the issue is the intention: I have no doubt at all that he is always well-intentioned in his edits, but the good intentions are not always enough to hide the disruption of the action. Happy days, LindsayHello 15:03, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
On the basis of this edit (though i would be happier without the final four words, which i think could still allow for controversy) i now support the lifting of the ban. Happy days, LindsayHello 14:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose It became prettyt clear during the previous discussion at AN/I that Dicklyon had violated the terms of their extant t-ban, saw nothing untoward about their actions and would do so again. While I didn't think Marcus British handled the conflict anywhere remotely close to appropriate, Dicklyon has not earned the trust necessary to lift the t-ban. Simonm223 (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support removing ban Primary reason: To me, this comes down to one simple question. Do I trust Dicklyon to not be disruptive if the ban on "large scale, controversial actions" is lifted? Yes. I do. I believe that he has more than earned our trust. Secondary reason: If it turns out that I am wrong, I would prefer a new response from the community, based upon behavior since the unblock, and not mixed up with a block/appeal for an unrelated past sockpuppetry issue. But I don't think I am wrong, and I don't think we will ever again have any issues with Dicklyon making large scale, controversial changes without seeking consensus first. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support lift – No recent issue with Dicklyon's behaviour. — JFG talk 00:41, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support removing ban – Dicklyon is one of the most professional of our editors in housecleaning the project. He does an enormous amount of good that clearly passes under the radar of some users here (and as for all of us here, the errors he does make are tiny compared with the size of output—errors that seem to be amplified by others in support of particular agendas). And I see above that there's confusion between (i) sudden, mass changes, and (ii) carefully argued, properly proposed multiple moves that rely on editors' feedback on the page before anything is finalised. Tony (talk) 00:47, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, he does good. But if he can't do that without also doing harm, and intensely irritating the other editors around him, that's not enough. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:18, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. This is a highly disruptive user who has violated his unblock agreement and doctored an MOS page to make it look like his position was already supported. Show him the outside of the door. Nyttend (talk) 02:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • On the fence, leaning oppose I intend to find some time to look into this further and clear that up one way or another. But for the moment, I'm seeing someone who willfully violated their unblock condition and we shouldn't respond to that by removing the unblock condition. If Dicklyon didn't understand their unblock condition, they have serious problems with reading comprehension. It wasn't difficult to follow. The alleged confusion seems to me to be much easier to understand as an attempt to wikilawyer around the ban than actual confusion over the wording. I'm also not convinced that the mass page moves they have carried out were uncontroversial; several have been reverted en masse and by Dicklyon's own admission, a lot of people complained about them. Lastly, modifying MOS to support one of those mass page moves to support your position in an argument about one of them is - how can I put this politely? - not the move of someone whose restriction is no longer necessary. GoldenRing (talk) 11:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • There is no ban - with respect to Prodego, the wording in the unblocking close is not sufficient to establish that a ban was enacted in the first place. Banning someone from "controversial actions" is so vague as to be unenforceable as a sanction. Furthermore it is not logged and has never been logged at WP:EDR, and the sanctioning admin has endorsed this approach; the community cannot endorse a restriction that does not exist. It is moot. If someone wants to propose that Dicklyon should be topic-banned from [mass-]page moves based on recent behaviour, they should do so. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:45, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support lifting... if the ban exists at all. While I don't think Dicklyon's handling was perfect, I can empathize with his frustration with vagueness of "avoiding potentially controversial moves" and subsequent catch-22 interpretation that several have been reverted en masse and therefore, they were controversial. Sorry, "controversial" does not mean "anyone objects for any reason including IDONTLIKEIT". As Ivanvector said, anyone can propose a ban that defines a clear bright line, but the current situation is simply untenable. As the evidence suggests, his page moves have been largely uncontroversial (sensu stricto) and he did not move-war when challenged. I'm pretty late in the game to make a proposal, but we could have formulated a restriction that Dicklyon must announce any move involving more than X (~20) articles on appropriate wikiproject(s) and/or RM and wait for 7 days before execution. Something like this would still be a good idea for Dick to follow voluntarily if the ban gets lifted. No such user (talk) 13:22, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
@No such user: Er... what? The restriction explicitly included "mass page moves" as something he was banned from doing because they are potentially controversial. No catch-22 here. GoldenRing (talk) 13:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
@GoldenRing: Well, the wording (and history of sanctions, I don't feel like searching for the original move ban discussion – was it formalized?) certainly included sufficient wiggle room. I'm not sure I subscribe to the notion that "" As Guy Macon pointed out, [I] would prefer a new response from the community, based upon behavior since the unblock, and not mixed up with a block/appeal for an unrelated past sockpuppetry issue. WP:ROPE, WP:BYGONES and all that. No such user (talk) 14:20, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Maintain the ban. I'm not acquainted with this editor or their history, but I do not trust a person with this sort of block log - edit-warring for years on end - to perform mass actions of any kind, let alone "large scale, controversial actions"". These are best avoided by everybody in any event. Sandstein 18:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    Sandstein, Dicklyon deserves more than just a cursory glance at their block log. If you can’t bother to look into the issue then please don’t offer an opinion. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:26, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lift ban if it exists. Ivanvector's argument is probably sufficient by itself. AFAIK, Noone has challenged the claim that he hasn't warred once reverted. That sounds like an editor aware and mindful of his past and looking to improve the encyclopedia without causing disruption or getting into trouble. Many editors (in the previous discussion) were of the opinion that his work is a necessary one. These editors seemed to be aware of the big picture in which the actions were carried out, while the opposing editors still seem to me, mad about few that they are closely involved with. Considering the scale/volume of his work, that's an understandable/unavoidable amount of controversy, IMO. Usedtobecool   18:47, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per LindsayH. This editor has a long history of asserting his actions are uncontroversial because they are fully justified in his own mind and constantly pushing the limits. Only a bright line rule will work. Jonathunder (talk) 19:43, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support lifting if there is a ban. There's a strong suggestion that this "ban" was imposed in a way that isn't permitted in the rules, in that it was decided by a single admin rather than AN consensus. But if that that interpretation turns out to be invalid, then I also support the proposal to lift it. That is not to say I think Dick should head on out and perform large-scale controversial moves. Of course not. But, as already noted, neither should anyone else. Dick has not done anything that I know of in the last four years to merit being singled out from other editors in this fashion. And to anyone who thinks it doesn't really matter, the recent ANI episode – where Dick's reporting of a problematic editor (who was blocked for incivility) almost resulted in a BOOMERANG because of this sanction – shows that actually this is something that looms large over Dick's Wikipedia career. And at this point in time, even though I don't always agree with Dick, I don't think that's fair because he cares about the project and by-and-large he follows the rules. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 20:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lift ban. Support IV's vagueness / process arg. Dicklyon is a good editor with a strong technical background. Glrx (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lift if there is one at all (I think not per Ivanvector). I've seen Dicklyon's comments on a number of RMs, and they generally seem to be sensible. I trust their ability to move pages in accordance with policy. Wug·a·po·des​ 22:22, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Lift any ban Paul August 00:14, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Dicklyon comments[edit]

OK, nobody asked, but allow me a few reactions anyway.

First, many thanks to all the fine editors who stood up for me, knowing me or not. And especially to prodigal son Dlohcierekim, who was able to change his view on me. And El C for his naively optimistic idea that an appeal would be a simple formality.

Nyttend was the only editor besides MarcusBritish in what Beyond My Ken refers to as "a number of people" who expressed in the AN/I discussion that I had violated my "2015 unblock conditions" before BMK moved to indef me for that. Nyttend's comments there, and here, should be evaluated in the context of long-running style debates at RM discussions, which he has generally lost. Moves, not mass moves. His anti-MOS drama and WP:INVOLVED interference goes back at least to this 2013 RM discussion, which he lost. And this 2016 mess, which I lost. His beef is with moves and MOS, not with controversial mass moves. He's likely still sore that I took him to AN/I about it in 2017.

Andy Dingley just likes to cap stuff that's important to him (rail lines, computers, ships, whatever), but loses at all the relevant RM discussions. These discussions generally come early, and get resolved before "mass" moves happen. Some are not at all associated with mass moves (the computer and ship examples). And the British rail fans insisted on discussing pretty much every item, so we did, over quite a few months, including many in separate RM discussions, as they requested (e.g. see long list open in Feb. 2017 at the bottom of this article alerts page where you can see that almost all moved to lowercase line). Andy now claims (above) that I downcased the Apollo command and service module, but his link belies him – it was in fact closed and moved by RGloucester after Andy lost the debate in 2018.

GoldenRing is politely discussing with me to see if there's anything behind his complaint: User talk:GoldenRing#Examples, background?.

Simonm223 declined to clarify at his talk page.

LindsayH responded above to a clarification request. He found a British railway fan wanting to ban me since the RM discussions weren't going their way (not really "mass", but there may have been dozens by then, such as this one). And a not-move-related Vitamin D argument. And a complaint about my work related to MOS:JR, a provision that was very widely supported, eventually led to many thousands of moves including a few thousand by me and a few thousand by Mandruss and others after more discussion. Not exactly controversial mass moves.

Sandstein shows a lot of gall with his claim "I don't recognize this editor" after all the complaining I've been doing about his WP:INVOLVED action on unrelated matters in the last 3 days: multiple edits at this AE action, a trout on his talk page, and a snarky congrats; maybe he didn't notice. And then he argues for a ban based on not trusting me, for blocks from before I had 7 months off to think about my role in WP. And his anti-MOS involved actions go back to 2014 at least. His opinion can be weighed accordingly.

Jonathunder is just saying bad things for reasons I don't understand. Maybe he's been in some of those MOS-related discussions?

I'm not claiming everyone loves me or MOS-related style fixes, just that I don't abuse the system and I don't do controversial mass moves. Yes, as I stipulated at the start, I do "mass moves", but none of those masses have been controversial. Dicklyon (talk) 02:31, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome, I would really appreciate some kind of commitment that when you move pages, you will link to the discussion that preceded the move in your edit summary. It's not a policy requirement, but if you are regularly moving dozens to hundreds of pages, it is a tremendous help. If the link is too long to fit in the summary, you can use Special:PermanentLink. I also think you should consider the probability that all mass moves are controversial. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:54, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I will commit to linking discussions on future moves wherever it's not obvious. Dicklyon (talk) 03:36, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On the 2015 "ban"[edit]

When I closed the original AN/I thread, the rationale was "User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here." While a ban on page moves was proposed in that thread, it did not have consensus and no ban was established. The word "ban" does not appear in the closure, the message on Dicklyon's talk page, or the unblock log message.

This "provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions", as many correctly surmised above, is restatement of a policy that applies to all users. It is a warning that such actions will result in being reblocked. Any increased vigilance of monitoring Dicklyon's page moves due to this four year old warning is long past.

There is a separate question of whether consensus in this most recent AN/I thread established a new ban, which was unclear. This discussion has now made that clear. Prodego talk 16:34, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for saying so, and for your support along the way. Dicklyon (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

By the way, I moved about 100 articles this weekend, and tried to use links to explain where I could. If anyone sees anything controversial among the groups or singlets there, please just let me know and I'll take them to discussion. So far no pushback, and none expected really. Dicklyon (talk) 05:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

The comments by Prodego here, are telling, along with comments made in the discussion as to the validity of calling Prodego's comments in the above and preceding discussions a "ban". Pedantically construing Prodego's close to be a ban is probably a misrepresentation (ie taking things out of context) amounting to Wikipedia:Wikilawyering to the extent of being a personal attack, in the context that sanctions have been sought. This is reminiscent of witch hunts. Those raising such an hue and cry should be cautioned (at the very least) for their actions, particularly if they profess to be knowledgeable in the finer working of such matters. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Probably a very good idea for admins to watch this closely[edit]

2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests and associated pages. I mean current event pages in the countries of US rivals will always be a mess but this one looks particularly in need of careful, neutral, admin oversight. There's been a fair bit of WP:RGW from both editors with pro and anti China POVs there, and there's a lot of editors on IPs trying to use Wikipedia as an organizing and communications tool rather than an encyclopedia. At this point, I'm not running to AN/I to call out any specific editors, and would in fact advise caution and care toward WP:BITE. But I do think admins being alert to this cluster of event pages and filled in on the rapidly changing landscape of discussion here would be a very good idea. Simonm223 (talk) 18:25, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

For my part, I've been trying to keep an eye. El_C 18:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Friendly reminder to all that Wikipedia:Current events noticeboard also exists now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:54, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

An abundance of caution[edit]

I just felt the need to report this user, Kamrul079 based on their recently created promotional page. God knows what they plan to contribute but I presume it will be promotional and PAID. Trillfendi (talk) 20:10, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:RPP[edit]

There is an IP-hopping anon with a bone to pick who has been vandalizing WP:RPP. I semi-protected the page for 1 day, but additional eyes on it -- especially once the protection lapses -- and the other pages the IP was targeting (like Aircraft carrier) would be appreciated. caknuck ° needs to be running more often 19:59, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/2600:1011:B000::/42 range blocked for 31 hours. That should stop the disruption for now. It might need to be widened to a /40, so let me know if it continues. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

One for the old timers[edit]

Anyone who's been around forever might remember Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland. Overstock sued a bunch of Wall Street firms for $3.5bn or so for naked short selling,and duked it out here as well. Apparently that all settled by 2016 for a total of about 1% of the claim, including dismissal of a comedy RICO claim, but that's an aside. They diverged into selling their own stock online, and (of course!) did an ICO. And today Patrick Byrne is back in the news due to a liaison with Maria Butina: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/15/business/overstock-paul-byrne-maria-butina-affair.html?fbclid=IwAR2lS5ljxNsJUosvJXK8nBC2nFZzmlST5aYYurvPCUjApZL4h80FrvRrbHw. Welcome to Wikipedia, where both sides of a dispute turn out to be shitty. Guy (Help!) 21:55, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Now, now. That isn't entirely accurate. Sometimes there are three or more sides that all turn out to be shitty. :)
Also, you should apologize to shit for comparing it to certain of the more unsavory denizens of Wall Street. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
What both these guys said. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:44, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Request to create Baltimore Gneiss article[edit]

The article title is currently blacklist, however I would like to create this page as it is a significant geological unit that merits inclusion on Wikipedia. Avg W (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Done here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:30, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Users should create drafts, then ask an admin to move them. Blank pages will just get speedy deleted. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:50, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Agreed, NinjaRobotPirate; with that in mind, I've taken the liberty of creating a User:Avg W/Baltimore Gneiss page for Avg W. Hope that helps. ——SerialNumber54129 09:27, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I have put a starter page at [[User:Avg W/Baltimore Gneiss so an admin can move it. I intend on filling it out with more detail. Avg W (talk) 10:34, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
@Avg W: Proterozoic Tectonic Evolution of the Grenville Orogen, US Geological Survey, Gneiss Domes in Orogeny, Potassium Argon Dating, The geology of the crystalline rocks, The Appalachian-Ouachita Orogen in the United States, Baltimore, Migmatites. ——SerialNumber54129 11:09, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
  • This shouldn't be blacklisted; the problem is with the title blacklist, where the first letter of each word is missing in some titles - .* is 0 or more characters, not 1 or more. Other corrections and updates are needed there, such as the numbers (last updated in 2016) preventing creation of many IPv6 talk pages, the repeated namespace for "Portal" missing a colon, and blacklisting of IP talk pages for which the blocks expired in 2009. Peter James (talk) 15:35, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
    This blacklisted entry exists because of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Chinanike101, for the record. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding the Arab–Israel conflict[edit]

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

The committee opens proceedings on pages relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict, naming it Palestine-Israel articles 4. Proceedings will take place in the normal form. Evidence (and related submissions, including at the Workshop) must remain within the proceedings scope. The following matters will initially be within scope:
  • Trends in disruptive editing of related pages, but not the specific conduct of any editor.
  • Difficulties in Wikipedia administrative processes, particularly arbitration enforcement (AE), with regard to related pages.
  • Currently-authorised remedies under any arbitration decision that affect related pages.
  • Prospective amendments to, or replacements for, existing remedies.
  • Other general matters relating to the ease with which Wikipedia keeps order on pages relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict.

At the direction of the Arbitration Committee, the Palestine-Israel articles 4 case will be suspended until September 19, and parties and participants will be notified by then of the timetable for the case as well as any other necessary case management information.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 07:09, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding the Arab–Israel conflict

Edit review[edit]

The proper venue for resolving this matter is WT:RM; please see WT:Requested moves#Technical requests. wbm1058 (talk) 03:56, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, edits made by Hildeoc on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests and Wikipedia:Requested moves review needed by admin. Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 19:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Before coming here, couldn't you first have a normal human conversation with them? Find out what they're trying to do? Explain why you think it's incorrect? That kind of thing? Something more than edit summaries and canned warning templates? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I've notified the editor of this discussion. @ZI Jony:, please remember to do that next time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 Note: I tried to make clear my edits, and their reasons to the inquirer within the relevant edit summaries, as well as my personal talk page. However, the inquirer has not responded to my statement so far.--Hildeoc (talk) 19:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Hildeoc When your edit was reverted by Steel1943 you suppose to discuss on talk page but you repeat again and again, please discuss on talk page before made this type of changes, and when page movers or admin clear request on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests your changes will be automatically erase. Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 05:16, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Once again: I made that edit in order to ensure that all shortcuts as well as the subpage instructions are transcluded to the main page. Please feel free to contact me in case of further questions. Best wishes--Hildeoc (talk) 15:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
PS: @ZI Jony: What exactly do you mean by "when page movers or admin clear request on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests your changes will be automatically erase" here?--Hildeoc (talk) 15:59, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Hildeoc: Page movers and admin can see one button called as "Clear all requests", when they press on that button everything will erase. Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 16:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ZI Jony: Oh, I see. Thank you for pointing that out. Do you or anybody else here happen to know how to fix that?--Hildeoc (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
PS: I have now started a corresponding thread on the RM talk page.--Hildeoc (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, since I was pinged, at the present time, it looks like issue I saw with the instructions not appearing of Wikipedia:Requested moves has been resolved, I have nothing to say/add to this. Steel1943 (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could you please redirect Https://en.wikipedia.org to Wikipedia please?[edit]

99721829Max (talk) 23:23, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I am unsure how to parse this.--Jorm (talk) 23:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
We have en.wikipedia.org as a redirect to English Wikipedia already; I think he's asking for the same thing from a page with the full URL as the title. —C.Fred (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
That doesn't seem like anything even remotely plausible as a search term. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 00:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Yeah that's the only way I can understand this request. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 Done redirects are cheap. I've sent it to Main Page, as that is the normal landing spot for someone entering that URL. I'd take an argument to send it to English Wikipedia as a possible alternative landing spot, since it explicitly includes en. — xaosflux Talk 01:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
I would really like it if Wiki's search could automatically parse external links to itself. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:07, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
No, I mean the English Wikipedia article. 99721829Max (talk) 01:10, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Who'd be putting the URL for the English Wikipedia into Wikipedia's search engine? It'd be like putting Google's URL into Google. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 01:32, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
@Jéské Couriano: hope you were joking?xaosflux Talk 01:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: It should probably go to English Wikipedia as http://en.wikipedia.org already targets there. It's a {{R from domain name}}. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯MJLTalk 05:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 Done per the clarification of the requester above and to conform with the other page which was the subject of a previous RfD. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:18, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
On the question of "Who'd be putting the URL for the English Wikipedia into Wikipedia's search engine?": It's very common these days to be looking at a browser with a URL box, a browser Search box, and a site-specific Search box immediately below. It's very easy to paste a URL into one of the search boxes by mistake, or a search term into the URL box or the wrong search box... I do it all the time. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Further attempts to bait Eric Corbett[edit]

Well it doesn't look like much more is going to be accomplished here. Scotty doesn't appear to be receptive to discussion, and Eric doesn't appear to be sticking around. If someone wants to try to make sense of that Arbcom mumbo jumbo- it's over at WP:RFAR. Ched
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the last week Eric has been baited into a block on various threads, mainly surrounding Moors murders which is currently at WP:FAR as a result of being ruined by some fairly well-intentioned editors. Eric was blocked by GoldenRing for 72 hours and was asked we he can't "let stuff go". Then, 72 hours later (maybe more) Eric is visited by an admin, Scottywong, who leaves this rather unnecessary and provocative message, in order to provoke an equally unnecessary and provocative retaliation from Eric. It is clear that Eric and Scottywong have history, so will it be a case of sitting back and watching with bated anticipation, to see if Eric responds with an equally uncivil retort, so he can be blocked, or will Scottywong be blocked or admonished for starting trouble? CassiantoTalk 03:51, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Hopefully, EC will ignore the bait. GoodDay (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
That's not the point. Someone should have the foresight to deal with the instigator rather than the instigated. CassiantoTalk 03:58, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
If you can demonstrate to some standard that the intention of the comments to which Eric is reacting inappropriately is to provoke just that reaction for the purpose of having Eric blocked or banned, then I think there is grounds for intervention. Otherwise, it still comes down to Eric needing to bite his tongue and not rise to the challenge. If nobody can prove to some reasonable standard that the baiting is intended to cause Eric to violate his editing restrictions, then we're well into WP:NOTTHERAPY territory. As to that one diff, I just don't see it as being intended to cause him to violate rather than an unfriendly, snippy remark. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:19, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
For "unfriendly" and "snippy", read incivility. There is not a separate rule for sysops. CassiantoTalk 04:42, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Did you even read my filing comment? SW's comment offers nothing relevant to the thread, other than to mock Eric's "style" - indicated by the provocative use of quote marks. EC and SW have history, further evidence with regards to a motive. And no, it does not fall to Eric to bite his tongue when we have people actively going about provoking incivility. If this kind of provocation didn't exist, Eric wouldn't react. Can you demonstrate the positivities of saying such a comment to someone who's just come of a block? CassiantoTalk 04:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Anyone who has tried to understand and get to know Eric as a person knows that he has a touchy or prickly personality, but also that Eric is a great Wikipedia editor when nobody is trying to pick a fight. And very smart. I will never forget the help he gave me on my first Good Article, an article that I really cared about. He has provided similar assistance on many, many other articles, when other editors were happy to work with him. In my opinion, any administrator who comments on his talk page (or the talk page of any recently blocked editor) should have a clearly articulated and valid reason to communicate. Poking at a person who has gone through such a tough experience is a very bad idea. Administrators should always try to keep caution and compassion in mind. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:24, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
If I accidentally removed part of another editor's comment, then I apologize. Please feel free to refactor to clean up my mess. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The notion one must "demonstrate the intention" or "prove the baiting is intended" is absurd in the context of text-only WP. (Even in court of law, successful perjury cases are nearly non-existent, because the standard of proving intent, that the liar "knew they were lying" is an almost impossible bar to meet. So in WP, which is not a court of law, the suggestion is doubly inappropriate & absurd.) The text is there in black & white for any reasonable person to read & interpret whether baiting or not, as well as any accompanying history or context. --IHTS (talk) 04:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
There must be intent. In the absence of intent demonstrated to some standard, you're assuming bad faith inappropriately. So in WP, which is not a court of law, the suggestion is doubly inappropriate & absurd. Of course Wikipedia is not a court of law. But we still must adjudicate problems like this fairly and even-handedly, according to policy, rather than what we "feel" is right or wrong, baiting or provocation. I see no clear facts being asserted to demonstrate intent to disrupt or intent to cause Eric to violate his sanctions. In the absence thereof, I would advise that this discussion be ended. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:42, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Mendaliv, I think you sometimes go way too far with your attempts to interpret things on a legal basis. You know full well that Wikipedia is not governed by such things. I realise that, like me, you cannot read SW's mind but can you please try to explain how you think their comment was useful/what purpose it served, bearing in mind in particular the past interactions and the unusual grammar. That is, in your terms, the "intent". - Sitush (talk) 07:00, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Mendaliv, I think you sometimes go way too far with your attempts to interpret things on a legal basis. You know full well that Wikipedia is not governed by such things. On the contrary, I'm trying to bring a measure of logic and analytical response to this matter, rather than an endless reliance on "concern" for "problematic" comments. One needn't read someone's mind to determine intent, after all. And, indeed, I don't think SW's comment was constructive or intended to be particularly constructive. But I also don't see any indication that the comment was intended to push Eric into violating his restriction. If that comment is worthy of sanction under the ordinary policies, then it should be sanctioned. If not, it should not. All this talk about "baiting" Eric is meaningless unless there's intent to cause Eric to violate. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the law or its processes are particularly good exemplars of logic. Given your opinion of SW's "intent", why should the comment have been made at all? - Sitush (talk) 07:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the law or its processes are particularly good exemplars of logic. I have no interest in your prejudices. The only interest any of us should have is that this complaint is resolved rationally. The only way to do this is to put aside personal, subjective feelings and by pursuing this in an objective, repeatable manner. This is the approach I have advocated from the beginning and will continue to advocate. If SW can be shown to have intended for Eric to violate as a result of his comment, then he should be sanctioned. Similarly, if SW's comment violates standards for civility, then he should be sanctioned accordingly. This is not hard by any means. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@Mendaliv: No, the only interest any of us should have is that this complaint is resolved in a way that minimises disruption to the encyclopaedia project. If totally irrational actions result in that end, that's fine with me. I don't care what SW's intent was; anyone can see that this is unnecessary and likely to be provoking, especially given the history between these two. GoldenRing (talk) 09:16, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
GoldenRing, totally irrational actions don't result in minimizing disruption. Totally irrational actions–especially admin actions–always increase disruption. Exhibit A: deleting dlthewave's firearms page as a DS sanction; Exh. B: indef'ing Huldra when Sir Joseph had a 3 month tban; Exh. C: removing Scottywong's comment but doing nothing about Corbett's just-as-bad-or-worse comments (see my next comment below). I wish you would take on board that Mendaliv's point here is correct and yours is not: there needs to be rationality in enforcement, or else the people rebel. That's why the real world has laws and not just cops who do what they think is right from moment to moment. Levivich 15:52, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Are you aware that Golden Ring blocked Corbett less than a week ago? Lepricavark (talk) 15:55, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Exhibit D: when an editor is blocked for incivility for a month, then comes back and is even more uncivil, giving him a 72-hour block is irrational and leads to–you guessed it–he's back after 72 hours, and still uncivil. (In fairness, GR's issuing of the AE block was per admin consensus and not a unilateral action, as far as I read it. But it illustrates mendaliv's point about rationality in enforcement actions [though I'm not sure if mendaliv supported the block at all, I can't remember]). Levivich 16:05, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Eric is always going to be uncivil. I've never much cared for that and I used to be one of the editors making a big deal of it. Frankly, I don't know what should be done about his incivility and, if yet another discussion was held to try and figure out a resolution, I wouldn't touch it with a 39-and-a-half foot pole. But none of that makes it okay for Scotty to bait Eric, and I'm not down with going easy on Scotty just because Eric is uncivil. I brought up GoldenRing's block because you made it seem like he was completely ignoring's Eric behavior when, in reality, it takes a great deal of courage to block Eric given the backlash that normally ensues. Lepricavark (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply that GR was ignoring Eric's behavior (I might take issue with how GR uses the tools sometimes, but GR certainly doesn't ignore issues; he often tackles the toughest disputes, much to his credit). As for EC always being uncivil, I hope you're wrong, but if you're right, the answer is an indef block. Having recently read his last 500 contribs (going back to May 2008), it seems to me he is definitely capable of communicating normally, he just chooses not to. Levivich 16:35, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to say that every single interaction with Eric includes incivility, but rather that I believe these civility issues will keep reoccurring in perpetuity. Baiting is a large part of the problem, although not the entirety of the problem. Lepricavark (talk) 16:58, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Clearly the facts don't much matter here, but the recent one-month block was not for incivility but for mentioning a certain project with a tangential relationship to GGTF. Eric Corbett 16:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
poor judgement [...] in her membership of WiR was the offending statement. Levivich 17:29, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I've been concerned about this too. Cassianto, thanks for bringing it here. One of Eric's FAs, Moors murders, was recently edited extensively (I'm choosing my words carefully) just as Eric was blocked for a month. To cut a long story short, it led to Eric receiving another block when he returned, several editors turning up who seemed hostile to Eric rather than interested in the article, serious personal attacks against Eric, the opening of a FAR, and editors who could have fixed the issues taking the pages off their watchlists in disgust (including the FAR nominator). I followed suit and took the FAR off my watchlist today.
    It is unfair that when Eric is baited, only he receives a block because he is under an ArbCom civility restriction. I'm pretty sure the ArbCom would not have intended to create that disparity. SarahSV (talk) 04:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Hi Sarah, it's even worse when one of the baiters happens to be an admin. Talk about lead by example. CassiantoTalk 04:37, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
    • SlimVirgin Please explain why you raised the FAR in a thread that is about editor behavior rather than article content, and why you appear to think that opening an FAR (to address what appear to be extensive and specifically stated article content issues that earlier measures including directly editing the article and discussion on talk had prominently failed to address) can be interpreted as a personal attack on an editor or indeed as anything other than purely being a step towards keeping our FAs high quality. Interpreting the FAR as an attack, as you articulate here and as Eric Corbett has explicitly articulated on the FAR itself, and then stepping away from the FAR as you and Eric Corbett both say you are doing, appears to make the failure of the FAR more likely. Your continued protection of the article, despite being necessary at the time, also stands in the way of the success of the FAR, because without being able to edit the article it is difficult to fix any issues. I'd rather think you'd prefer (as I do) that the FAR succeed in addressing the issues, returning the article to FA quality, and reaffirming its FA status. But for that to happen, it is essential that the review be depersonalized and depoliticized, or to put it more bluntly that editors feel free to criticize the wording of the article without fear that in doing so they will be taken to WP:AN as trying to bait Eric Corbett. It appears to be the case that criticizing or even editing the article acts to bait Eric Corbett, but if so, that should be his problem, not the problem of people trying to make FA and FAR work. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:35, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
      • You've misunderstood. I protected the article for 24 hours only. I did not interpret opening the FAR as a personal attack. SarahSV (talk) 07:57, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Then why even mention it at all here, in a thread that is purely about personal attacks to or by Eric Corbett? —David Eppstein (talk) 15:08, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
          • Personal attacks? I think you may be confused with another thread somewhere. No where have I said this is a "personal attack". This is about baiting behaviour, aggravated by the fact that it was by an administrator. But thank you for your valued input as always. CassiantoTalk 15:55, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
            • David Eppstein I'm not sure why you're attacking SlimVirgin but the FAR is to some extent directly related. Regardless, as I've explained to you now numerous times opening a FAR was my suggestion as the only means forward to solving intractable talk page issues at that article, almost all of which occurred in Eric's absence. I expected that Eric would and should be involved in the FAR, but it's not yet another venue for editors to attack each other. Victoria (tk) 16:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I personally don't see any baiting on the part of either Scottywong, GoldenRing, or Sandstein. None of them use clearly insulting wording like "incompetent gutter-snipe", "Your reading skills as are almost as bad as your writing skills, but both are admittedly better than your comprehension skills", "stupid", or "unpaid goons" -- for all of which Eric Corbett was blocked [17]. If Eric Corbett wants Scottywonng to stay off of his talkpage, he has only to say so. Softlavender (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • +1 with Softlavender. Much as I love Cass and Eric and the absolutely outstanding work they have contributed (even saying this sounds patronising; and that's what I feel is the top value of their work), there is no baiting here – though I am sorry Eric has to go through all this. Lourdes 06:51, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Softlavender, yours seem to be the "naughty words" approach to civility. Putting style in scare quotes, as SW did, is clear baiting. - Sitush (talk) 06:53, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • The quotation marks were directly quoting what Eric Corbett had said immediately above; therefore they weren't "scare quotes". If Eric Corbett wants Scottywong to stay off of his talkpage, he has only to say so. If the community wants to enact an interaction ban between Scottywong and Eric Corbett, then someone needs to propose it. Scottywong's comment does not appear sanctionable per se. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:04, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oh, come off it! - Sitush (talk) 07:17, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • If you believe Scottywong's comment is sanctionable per se, then what sanction to do you propose? Block? De-sysop? And based on what policy? Ad hominem comments like "Oh, come off it!" appear to indicate that you have no argument at this point but are merely bludgeoning those who disagree with your point of view. Softlavender (talk) 07:32, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Please read Cassianto's opening remarks in this thread. I have no idea why you are using the phrase ad hominem. - Sitush (talk) 07:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • So if you agree with Cassianto's apparent suggestion that "Scottywong be blocked or admonished for starting trouble", then I would suggest that you compose a boldfaced "Support" !vote for a block (including a policy rationale), rather than telling good-faith commenters to "Oh, come off it!". -- Softlavender (talk) 07:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • My congrats. First you insert ad hominem, which you know is usually used in the context of WP:NPA, and now you insert good faith with its implication that I may not be such because we're disagreeing here and you are. Smart stuff: if you honestly cannot see the baiting and totally unconstructive nature of SW's comment then I despair and hope that our paths do not cross in future because it doesn't look like I would get fair treatment. - Sitush (talk) 07:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • More ad hominem remarks instead of clear arguments. I never said Scottywong's comment was totally constructive; I said, and repeated myself, that in my opinion it is not sanctionable per se. If you believe it is sanctionable per se, then please propose an actual sanction and back that up with a policy rationale, and stop bludgeoning the conversation, questioning the good faith of those you disagree with, and posting ad hominem insults. Softlavender (talk) 08:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • So says the editor who replied to my comment at RfA (that admins have no business being admins if they can't do the easy thing of turning off their mouths from saying "Fuck you", as cops on-the-job don't do to citizens) by referencing my block log. (Seems to me that makes you transparently hypocritical re your ad hominem complaints.) --IHTS (talk) 09:59, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Eric Corbett has a number of restrictions by Arbcom because admins like SlimVirgin singularly failed to curb his bad behaviour, agressiveness, and article ownership issues. In many cases enabling it further. So whinging that he gets sanctioned under those restrictions is amazingly lacking in self-awareness. It is unfair that editors have to deal with Corbett and his protectors every time he throws a fit over his contributions being criticized, articles he has worked on being edited etc. But they had to deal with it, and it took an arbcom case to give them some form of parity. If admins had taken a more rigourous approch when these issues first appeared, it wouldnt have ended up at arbcom with Eric under a spotlight. So, only the enablers to blame at this point. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:30, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't consider it actionable in this case given that SW and Eric seem to have avoided each other for the last five years, but Scottywong used to have a long history of appearing in threads in which he'd never previously commented to try to goad Eric (take your pick here). I can certainly appreciate that this kind of petty point-scoring is conduct unbecoming, although I can't see that a one-off instance is anything actionable. It takes two to tango and if Eric stops rising to the bait, SW will get bored and find another game to play. ‑ Iridescent 07:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is the "conduct unbecoming" which is the issue here. You are placing the onus on Eric Corbett not to rise to the bait. SW needs to be trouted and told to stay away unless they're going to contribute something which is, without question, constructive. - Sitush (talk) 07:46, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, but as far as I can tell this is the first instance for five years, which is why I said "not actionable". On the general issue of taking two to tango, All editors are responsible for their own actions in cases of baiting; a user who is baited is not excused by that if they attack in response, and a user who baits is not excused from their actions by the fact that the bait may be taken is explicit written Wikipedia policy. ‑ Iridescent 07:56, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Yes, it is the "conduct unbecoming" which is the issue here. Then this needs to go to the Committee, which has exclusive authority over such matters. You are placing the onus on Eric Corbett not to rise to the bait. The onus is already on Eric based on the GGTF remedy, which requires him to disengage if he feels the need to fight back against someone that's annoying him. If this is unfair, an amendment should be sought at WP:ARCA. Until such time as that remedy changes, the onus is on Eric. This is not difficult. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:58, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree completely that Eric should not rise to the bait - no issue there. However, if there were no bait there would be nothing that might cause reaction. This doesn't need a formal sanction, just an informal shot across the bows so that SW is in no doubt that the edit was bad form. And all that needs is the notification of this discussion on their talk page + a consensus that it was indeed a poor comment. - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with Iridescent. It was baiting, it was inappropriate, and it doesn't rise to any blockable level. Funny, I thought Scottywong had retired--was their activity level substantial enough to keep the tool? They haven't been really active since 2013, or 2014 if one is charitable. And here they are, picking up where they left off years ago. Drmies (talk) 02:29, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It was unnecessary, ill-advised, inappropriate, etc. etc. Clearly provocative. But why bring it here and increase the potential for drama? Words to the Admin's. own talk page directly would have been more effective. This section is another unnecessary magnet, as can be seen..... Leaky caldron (talk) 07:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • A sanctimonious, self-promoting, trolling and clearly unsought comment which says more about Scottywong then Eric would ever be permitted to say. Probably not sanctionable as a first “offence”, but if this regrettable behaviour continues, then removal of his tool should be the first step in discouraging him. We expect better behaviour from our Admins. Giano (talk) 08:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I've removed the comment (and a response to it as collateral damage). It was completely unnecessary provocation of an editor who's just come off a block for responding to similar. It is deeply disappointing to see an admin stooping to this level and I agree with others than any repeat should be sanctioned, either by the community (IBAN?) or arbcom. GoldenRing (talk) 09:12, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • ((edit conflict) with GoldenRing) I'm sorry to see Scottywong has ignored the ping in the original post, even though he's active. I'm also sorry to see Cassianto has not alerted Scotty that he's being discussed here, because pings are not sufficient (they don't always work). I have rectified the second thing, and posted an alert of Scotty's page. My opinion of this thing is that, no, it's not necessary to "prove intent", Mendaliv. Since we can't inspect the insides of each other's heads, we don't know other's intent. Scotty made a post that he should have known was provocative, a few days after Eric was blocked. I don't agree with Cass's implication that that post was specifically intended to cause Eric to flare up "so he can be blocked"; I don't even believe anybody would block him for responding rudely to provocation; or, if some admin did block, there would be an outcry and an unblock. No. But I do think it was a very poor idea, @Scottywong:. I don't know about past interactions (Cassianto's link for "have history" is less than helpful), but it's enough that you're an admin and Eric is not, which means that you have more power here. Eric had a recent block in his history, which was an appropriate and sufficient sanction IMO. GoldenRing, who placed the block and a note about it, was very polite, as was appropriate. There was absolutely no call for Scotty to go there and poke Eric. Please hold yourself to a higher standard. Bishonen | talk 09:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC).
  • Oops, sorry, Cass, I see you did notify Scottywong. I should have checked the page history. He removed your notification with the comment "lol", and didn't deign to reply here. Lovely. Bishonen | talk 09:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC).
  • My less than helpful link is probably down to my inability to search for key things using the method Iridescent used - he found what I was looking for in his comment. CassiantoTalk 11:59, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I endorse GoldenRing's action and analysis. Haukur (talk) 10:04, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Endorse GoldenRing. See "admin Scottywong shows up to stir the shit pot and an old rivelry with Eric" (July 2014). Also, Scottywong indeffed Eric on 5 July 2013 (reduced 7 hours later). Johnuniq (talk) 10:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • IMHO it's clear baiting and I certainly endorse GoldenRing - Any repeats should result in sanctions (I would've liked to have seen sanctions now but maybe that would be punitive. –Davey2010Talk 10:12, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I just like to note the irony of Cassianto filing this complaint. My talk page is a good example of Cassianto baiting just as good. Anyway, ScottyWong should be at best warned about the behaviour. It is up to EC to ignore it. Thats it.BabbaQ (talk) 10:20, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
    • This isn't about me, so kindly do one. You're like an itch that wont go away. CassiantoTalk 11:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
      • This comment by Cassianto is a striking example of incivility in a thread where I would expect everyone to be more careful of their own behavior than that, however provoked they may feel. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
        • This comment by David Epstein is a