Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive92

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Private island[edit]

20:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Rollback and watchlist[edit]

Is there an easy way to set the rollback function so that it adds the page you roll back to your watchlist? Fram 13:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

On Special:Preferences, click watchlist, then check add pages that I edit. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
To my knowledge that does have no effect - infact I use rollback over any revertscript when in particular I don't want the page to clutter my watchlist. Agathoclea 13:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
An alternative is to use popups with the preferences set to add pages you edit to watchlist, because popups actually "makes an edit" (i.e. clicks "save page"). Of course, popups is too much trouble for most admins. – Chacor 13:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Yah, rolling back isn't actually editing... otherwise my watchlist would have exploded by now :/ Riana 13:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Allright, thanks! Fram 13:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser block[edit]

First of all sorry if I am reposting this, it seems my edit wasn't saved the first time (browser crash)

I got asked on my talk page to enforce a block after a checkuser request that showed it was  Likely that User:Heqong = TingMing. Since Heqong was claiming his innocence on the case talk page, I assume he will fill an unblock request. I already blocked confirmed users, but I was wondering what the process exactly was on likely socks? -- lucasbfr talk 13:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a judgement call. Personally, I see an account which was dormant for 9 months; then suddenly after TingMing was blocked, jumped into the same articles, from the same POV, making 50 edits/day. Add in a "likely" from checkuser, and I'd say it smells like a sleeper account/sock puppet. My inclination would be to indefinitely block it, but I'll see what others have to say. MastCell Talk 16:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Passes the duck test. Guy (Help!) 18:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
A "Likely" from a CheckUser is more than enough to warrant a block. AmiDaniel (talk) 22:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Deco Da Man unblocked[edit]

I have unblocked Deco Da Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), who was blocked indef by Ryulong (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for stupid sockpuppetry. Since Deco has apologised I'm giving him a second chance. Ryulong is offline for some time, so reporting it here. MaxSem 20:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with a second chance, provided he's on a short leash. Of course, since almost all of his edits were in his userspace even before the block, he could stay blocked and it might not make much difference... :) MastCell Talk 20:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Though I'm not an admin, I'm willing to commit to keep an eye on him -- esp. since I was a major advocate of his release from blocking. Basically, this is a 13-year-old kid who's pretty smart, but needs to sharpen his discernment for what's appropriate to do or not do on Wikipedia. --Yksin 21:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT attacks on new user pages[edit]

I'm all for WP:NOT#myspace but lately editors have been taking it to the extreme. See for instance User:JimmySan. One sentence. One sentence. Deleting a new user's page for having a single sentence is ridiculous. I wrote a new paragraph in WP:UP (here that gained consensus for the addition here) that I thought might help stem the tide of this, but editors don't seem to have noticed. This is becoming a real problem. -N 21:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Creator of deleted page[edit]

Hi. Me and a bot operator are trying to find out if the bot made a mistake. Could an admin tell me the creator of User talk:Wikihermit/Archive One? Thanks, --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@(Let's Go Yankees!) 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The creator and only editor was User:Wikihermit. AmiDaniel (talk) 22:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks AmiDaniel. --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@(Let's Go Yankees!) 22:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

PR person attempting to turn article into a press release[edit]

In the New York International Independent Film and Video Festival article, for a while a few anon users and one registered user have been attempting to remove all content sourced by reliable sources and replace it with completely un-sourced or press release sourced material. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

I personally suspect that people (person?) involved with this festival are behind these attempts. The only sourced parts of the article's history is criticism of this festival and the material they try to replace it with are press-release like material sourced only by other press releases. The registered editor, User:Beedyeyes, identifies them-self as Briege McGarrity, a "Publicity Event Producer Film Consultant".[6] Briege McGarrity seems to be associated with this film festival. [7] The need for proper sourcing has been posted in the article's talk page, edit summaries and on User:Beedyeyes and 71.50.64.3 talk pages[8], but User:beedyeyes continues to ignore warnings to stop doing this.

Other editors and I are bordering on 3RR. Can we have some help with this? Thank you. --Oakshade 22:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the page, given the edit-warring and reluctance of User:Beedyeyes, thus far, to engage on the talk page. In deference to the fact that they do seem to be a genuine newbie, I haven't blocked them for edit-warring but instead encouraged them to engage on the talk page. Once there's been some meaningful discussion (or if this user does not engage on the talk page) and you'd like the page unprotected so that editing can resume, you can ask me on my talk page or go to WP:RFPP and request unprotection. MastCell Talk 23:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Protection error[edit]

I keep getting an error message when trying to protect pages. It reads like this:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

(SQL query hidden)

from within function "Title::purgeExpiredRestrictions". MySQL returned error "1205: Lock wait timeout exceeded; Try restarting transaction (10.0.0.237)".

Can someone help me fix this problem? bibliomaniac15 Join or die! 23:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Is that for a particular page or all of them? Just now I protected my sandbox for 20 minutes with no problem. —freak(talk) 04:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Splitting edit histories[edit]

Not sure this is the right place for this, but it isn't really an "incident", so if this is the wrong place, please direct me to the correct place. The most recent bombing of the al-Askari Mosque was added to the article for the first bombing instead of being given its own article. I moved the content for the recent bombing to its own article and removed it from the original article. I know it's possible to merge edit histories of articles, but is it possible to split the edit history of an article? --Bobblehead (rants) 03:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If this is a case where a section of an article was created over time as part of a larger article, no, there's no easy way to split apart only the edit history relevant to that section. At first I thought you meant that B was cut and pasted to C and A was cut and pasted to B, which would require splitting to fix properly, due to the development of unrelated content on top of content that belongs with the first move. —freak(talk) 03:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks for checking. --Bobblehead (rants) 04:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Isarig POV pushing[edit]

User:Isarig, a frequent editor on all things related to the Israeli-Palastinin conflict, is POV pushing on House demolition, and I've just about reached the end of my patience with him. Can someone please take steps to reign him in, before I block him over it? Raul654 04:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You'd block someone who you were in a conflict with? hbdragon88 04:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I believe he's calling for someone else to intervene before he is tempted to go through with such an act.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Copyrighted images for internal use only?[edit]

I came across Category:Images_of_Wikipedians_used_with_permission just now. It asserts that user-created copyrighted photos may be used *inside the project itself* if re-use is not planned. (It should be noted that the wikipedia logo is licensed similarly, and the community appears to accept this). They were all uploaded in 2004, before our current policies came into place. Is this allowed? This could open a can of worms with users licensing their user page photos just for themselves, or just for their wikiproject. -N 19:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say no, but I would ask the uploaders before doing anything. Ask them to rechange the license, and if that doesn't work, then come back here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No, a proposal for such a license have been shot down before, these are "legacy" photos taken during some meetup by Raul654 but not released under a free license because he had not asked permission from the subjects of the photos. Then they seem to have just sort of gotten stuck in limbo and a couple of users have found the tag and used it for theyr own photos as well. It's been years though so I's probably time to clear them out (move to an off site facebook type place or something maybe). --Sherool (talk) 10:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, they could be tagged with {{subst:orfud}} as they are non-free images not being used in any articles. ;) --BigDT 13:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Advise on a slowly ongoing problem[edit]

I just reverted warned two people on the Julianna Rose Mauriello article. The situation is this: There have been rumors spread on a nonreputable blog, speculating on Ms. Mauriello's sexuality. These rumors were spread by a known stalker of Ms. Mauriello, who also lifted private pics from her (now nonexistant) facebook. The two Wiki users in question added this gossip to the article and tried uploading the image to her article. It is a private image taken during Ms. Mauriello's 16th birthday party. I don't want to go to RFPP, because the vandalism is well, lazy (Given the subject, pardon the pun.) I warned the one user with uw-upload because that was the nearest thing I could find to this, though I don't know if it's appropriate. Any suggestions? Should I take a chill pill? The reason I know the image is inappropriate, by the way, is because an anon user tried to upload the same image earlier this month. Thanks. --Ispy1981 20:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think a chill pill is necessary; after all, we're talking about violations of WP:BLP here. I think you're correct to take a strong line against adding speculative, poorly sourced material and illicit images; you can use Template:Uw-blp1 and up. If continued insertion of this material is a problem, then come back here or let me know, as repeatedly violating WP:BLP is grounds for a block. MastCell Talk 20:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Not only is it a BLP violation, but she's only sixteen. This needs to be severely curbed. Corvus cornix 22:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for your replies/advice. I have had the article on watch for quite some time, as a small favor to her family, and will report if it gets out of hand. --Ispy1981 00:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
On my watchlist as well. I'll keep an eye out for anything inappropriate. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 13:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we delete attack pages or not?[edit]

Can uninterested parties look on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Digwuren/Petri Krohn's Story of Estonians? Currently the discussion is dominated by users named in inconclusive Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Digwuren. Alex Bakharev 00:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

In these cases, don't we just mark with {{spa}} and let the closing admin decide whether to discount those votes or not? hbdragon88 00:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What {{spa}} are you talking about? These are established users. And it is hardly surprising that almost only Estonian editors are interested in this topic. Colchicum 11:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't know much about Estonian history...I understand the one user is mocking the other for his version of history but what's the actual dispute about? Just mocking somebody doesn't make it an attack page... -N 01:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Uh, no. The word "mocking" ought to have been a clue, there. --Calton | Talk 01:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
  • There is also a similiar page Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Petri_Krohn/Evidence. Both those pages should stay. There are no insults in them. We should be more tolerant regarding userspace, one of the legitimate usage of userspace is to help other wikipedians to understand with whom they are interacting. Also, is legitimate for wikipedians to question the edits of other wikipedians, this is part of a free debate which is helping to built a better encyclopedia. As long as no insults are used, I don't see reason for deletion.--MariusM 02:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I find it quite strange that Alex nominated that page, which is mocking Petri's views of Estonian history, for deletion on grounds of being attack page but at same time completely ignored User:Petri Krohn/Evidence where numerous editors are openly accused in wide variety of things from harrasment to holocaust denial.--Staberinde 10:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits and meatpuppetry[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hello fellow admins. Many of you will be familiar with Vintagekits (talk · contribs) an Irish editor who has been embroiled in a long-running and wide-ranging conflict with a number of English editors. Quite frankly, the behaviour of editors on both sides of this dispute have been poor, resulting in blocks being issued for edit-warring, personal attacks and incivility, e.g. [9] [10]. A case in point can be seen within the number of AfD's that have served as battlegrounds (see, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sir William Arbuthnot, 2nd Baronet). There has been allegations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry from editors on both sides, and a glance at the AfD will reveal plenty of SPA's. A recent AfD inspired the re-appearance of a few SPA friends, resulting in a report being filed on suspected sockpuppets of Vintagkits. Consequent to this an editor provided me with compelling evidence of Vintagekits soliciting support off wiki to help, in his own words, with a bit of voterigging. The evidence is detailed at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Vintagekits. As someone who has been involved in collecting this evidence, I don't believe I'm the right person to judge how to use it in determining what, if any, action should be taken. I'm asking for the opinion of others, especially those familiar with Vintagekit's history. Thanks. Rockpocket 06:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The evidence on the page is circumstantial. Is there concrete evidence of solicitation, e.g. a post on a message board? Tyrenius 17:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Just spotted new material that answers the question. Tyrenius 17:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
See also my post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Vintagekits again. I know both "sides" have behaved badly here, but I don't think one wrong excuses another. In the absence of any commitment to improve from Vintagekits, and in the light of this new evidence of Vintagekits' failure to respect policy, I think we have to be looking at a longish block. --John 17:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, lets centralise this discussion. I'm going to take the liberty of merging the posts here over to the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, and archiving this. Rockpocket 17:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Kai (talk · contribs · logs · block log)[edit]

Kai has been acting strange lately. He contributes to the Habbo Hotel article like myself, but lately there has been discussions about inclusion of hotel raids in the article, whether the article is written like an advertisement, disputes about Habbo Hotel being a game or not and other issues. Digging through his contributions, I found this vandalism warning to my talk page, prior to the English-only warning template on my talk page. Then a month or so later, he is vandalising my status box on my userpage as shown in these: [11] [12] [13]. Later on he awards me a barnstar on my talk page and adds "Why are you so cool?" to my editor review. I have no problem with the barnstar and the question and it is appreciated (I did the same to him and awarded him a barnstar for his kindness), but what confuses me is that one moment he is kind, and then he warns me for owning the article. Anyone else find something suspicious about his actions? –Sebi ~ 08:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh lord. Did you just happen to forget that we have a relationship outside of Wikipedia? I find this highly unnecessary... --Kai 09:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Is that relevant? You have vandalised pages in my userspace, warned me for WP:OWN unneccessarily and then treat me with praise and respect. What is going on? –Sebi ~ 10:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I obviously thought it was necessary to advise you of WP:OWN. In regards to the above, you knew I was having a joke, and why wait until now to complain... and what's the harm in giving a barnstar here and there. Kai 10:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Serious concerns about User:SlimVirgin and User:Jayjg, admins protecting admins? gangs?[edit]

I had typed this up yesterday and decided not to submit it, giving SlimVirgin the benefit of the doubt, but something came up that makes me deeply concerned about this. I found that there is some history and controversy related to these two and their style of admining? I have been earnestly editing wikipedia for some time now and have only recently entered upon any controversial articles as part of my interest in promoting NPOV in cases where it is difficult to attain due to prevailing moral and political opinions. Prior to this, I am especially proud of my work on Emergence in bringing it balance, and I think that my edit history on the whole speaks for itself - I am not a vandal, I am not here to disrupt articles. Most of my edits are on innocuous pages about Scale models and passenger trains. Despite all that, I fear I may have inadvertantly gotten myself on the wrong side of a powerful duo and wouldn't like to find myself blocked - I value my editing here a great deal, and especially the history of edits on this account, etc. I feel that I must speak up before SlimVirgin makes good on her threats and I am prevented from making a broad appeal to the admins.

I'll keep it as brief as possible. I made some proposals (Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Fact disputedfact value and Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Killing NPOV) for clarification on NPOV and additions to the text of the policy. While working on what I thought was a persistent pattern on Wikipedia of stating POV as fact, paraphrasing with bias, etc. in violation of existing policies, I came to holocaust. I then ran into a problem with several administrators who are parked on that article and enforcing a particular version of it (backed up by threat of blocking for "disruption"). Let me quickly itemize what I think are the key problems:

  • SlimVirgin "lols" and quotes obvious WP:CIVIL violation by User:Rabbeinu on his talk page[14] and ignores another inappropriate comment by him on her talk page[15].
  • SlimVirgin engages in a pattern of edit-warring and it is apparently impossible to get an admin blocked for it ("undoes the actions of another editor in whole or in part" right?) - just an example: ([16] reverts [17], [18] reverts [19], [20] reverts [21], [22] reverts [23]) - 3RRV denied by User:Heimstern with note that slim should "revert less often". Does the rule not clear staying "undoes the actions of another editor in whole or in part"? Because she did this previously (take your pick, two possible sets of 3RR violations from these edits ([24][25][26][27][28][29]) and 3RRV was denied by User:Tariqabjotu - an apparent ally listed below who also blocked me after User:Jayjg listed me for a 3RR which was totally unintentional on my part, a series of consecutive edits which were getting reverted by Slim without me realizing - if these aren't 3RR mine sure wasn't.
  • Above users ganged up to have me blocked (and protect Slim from being blocked) for what was really two reverts on my part, broken out into a series of consecutive edits - within literally a couple minutes my first and second edit had been reverted, but these were intended as consecutive edits, not an edit war.
  • SlimVirgin indicates in edit summary that I am not to "modify lead" or introduce quotes and "counter-claims" on the article. Since when is someone not free to edit an article to try to improve it?
  • SlimVirgin persistently (just for example [30], [31], [32]) warns that a clear content and policy dispute is "disruptive editing" and I am concerned that she may have me blocked for it by a friend without even peer review by impartial admins.
  • Minor issue, but "SlimVirgin" is a potentially offensive user name and seems to me to violate the user name policy. How has this slipped by? Judging by the names that are summarily banned every day, how isn't this the sort of reference to "reproductive functions"? If people are banned for having "gay" in their username which is not even mentioned in the policy, how does this clear reference to "reproductive functions" go unquestioned? Seems that admins protect admins whereas new users get no consideration at all. There are cases of people being banned summarily for all sorts of innocuous names which are not directly covered by the policy.

Please see Talk:Holocaust, and I think these [33][34][35][36] edits mentioned above (that she reverted in whole or in part) exemplify what I am trying to do, which is nothing other than a good-faith effort to improve the neutrality of wikipedia.

I would like the edit-warring and threats to stop. I don't know SlimVirgin's history or if she is prone to this sort of conflict but she strikes me as someone who does not have the sort of impartiality that should be associated with administrative privileges. The wider problem of admins protecting admins needs to be addressed too - although that is such a fundamental problem of this system with its "discretions" and powers that I have no idea what could be done about it. Fourdee 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you focus on trying to change the admin system and dont focus on individual admins, SqueakBox 02:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Without commenting on the rest of what you say just yet, the examples of your edits that you give at the end there are hardly unproblematic. In this edit and this edit you rely on one source to assert a fact (a practice you complain about here) without identifying the source, but importantly without identifying that he is only speaking about terms used in a particular period (from 1939 to early 1942). In this edit you are simply removing information without explanation. --bainer (talk) 12:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't investigated the current situation in detail, but I would note that in the Wikipedia talk pages cited, you advocated an interpretation of NPOV that I found extreme and unconventional. If you are now trying to apply your interpretation of NPOV to the Holocaust, I wouldn't be surprised if it is creating friction. Dragons flight 12:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

As I have had to remind certain people on occasion, Wikipedia is not the real world and, with that said, the title of Admin can not be equated always with a mature and sensible person. So, while not referring to the Slim situation (I know nothing about that person) I agree completely that there are some bad admins out there and there are “admin gangs” that pop up as well as people who badly abuse their powers. While some admins are upstanding and respectable people with jobs, homes, and the 2.5 children of the American Dream, other admins may be exactly the opposite. In particular, there is a growing number of admins who are college students and (not that there’s anything wrong with being a college student) it is a little scary to think about a 22 or 23 year old passing judgment or becoming involved in a dispute with someone twice their age and having the attitude on Wikipedia that those involved in the dispute should be treated as equals and as if they are the same with knowledge and experience which just isn’t the case sometimes. For instance, imagine you were a 63 year old lawyer working on a case and a 19 year old who saw an episode of Matlock came into your firm and told you how wrong you were. In the real world, you could throw the person out on the street but here at Wikipedia the person just be taken seriously and debated with as a mature party. Conflicts then erupt, disputes happen, and if the 19 year happens to be an Admin there might arise a situation of unfair behavior and abuse of admin powers. So, extremely valid points. Whether or not anything can be done about it, that is the true question. -38.119.112.187 12:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah 250 words or less please. ViridaeTalk 13:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

While there is certainly a problem with cliques on Wikipedia, and it's also true that SlimVirgin can be a bit abrupt at times (aren't we all?), I have to say that in this case she has a point. I agree with Dragonsflight and Thebainer that you seem to have a rather odd view of NPOV. Some of your earlier edits (e.g. to Nazism - diff) seem a little questionable as well. -- ChrisO 23:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I came across Fourdee first when he wanted to change the Emmett Till article to say that the subject had been "killed", not "murdered", because no one was convicted (even though two people confessed). When he began to lose that argument he proposed the NPOV policy be changed to specifically prohibit designating deaths as murders unless there have been convictions. It would have also had disruptive effects on articles about genocides, massacres, etc. When that proposal was shot down he apparently started to go after those who opposed it, including these admins. This editor appears to shop for forums seeking better outcomes. While I haven't reviewed the case he lays out here, I've seen enough of his previous actions to doubt its merits. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the people in question were acquitted of murder. Fourdee 02:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, I am not aware of any of these editors having anything to do with the Emmett Till article or the NPOV proposals, nor do I care to retaliate against anyone for disagreeing with me. People have opinions, why should that bother me or anyone else? This isn't about the content dispute, it's about whether there is a cabal or gang of admins who work together to silence opponents. Fourdee 02:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Having failed to bring rogue admins on the Hebrew wikipedia to justice (sadly, due to the size of their wiki it's a true cabal), I'm always on the lookout for admin "gangs" as it were, but here I think the problem lies in interpreting NPOV, not the admin's conduct. David Fuchs 01:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't have time to find diffs right now, but Fourdee has been insisting that we call the Holocaust an "eradication project," and argues that we can't use the term "mass murder," because it's POV, given that not everyone was convicted of murder. We're also not allowed to say that every arm of the German bureaucracy was involved in the genocide (for which we have a good source, and which no scholar disputes), unless we can find a source showing that every single civil servant knew it was genocide. And so on. This has been accompanied by long talk-page explanations of how Fourdee is the only person who understands NPOV. It's tiresome, particularly as we're currently trying to improve the article, and most of his edits have been reverted.
As for my user name and "reproductive functions"(!), as everyone knows, my name is a reference to extra-virgin olive oil, which is not to my knowledge connected to reproduction, though I stand to be corrected, and knowing Fourdee I no doubt will be. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Same argument could be made for "gay" (happy) and "dick" (richard) and so on for probably anything - I guess "gaydick" is a valid username because it could mean "happy richard". It has the appearance of mentioning sexual function and there's sure no phrase "slim virgin" about olive oil or anything else. The only things that turn up in searching for that on google are pornography and rather detailed complaints about you. Anyway, maybe not "everyone knows" what it's supposed to mean.
The rest of what you said is, as a whole, false or distorted. At any rate, I would just like to be free from the threat of being blocked because of a content/policy dispute. And you appear to have made it clear you don't want quotes and counter-claims in the article so I think we are going to continue to have this dispute. Fourdee 02:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Funny, I honestly thought it was a reference to Virginia Slims o.O ... —freak(talk) 02:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Since when does virginity have anything to do with reproduction anyway? Your username concern reeks of trolling, Fourdee. —freak(talk) 03:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
shrug check out the usernames that are banned summarily every day. As to what Virgin means please notice the article mentions reproductive functions in the first sentence. This is a totally trivial issue I just mentioned it because I don't think any policies are being enforced uniformly or fairly. Fourdee 03:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I could say a lot here, but I'll simply point out that Fourdee insisted on removing the term "mass murder" as a description of the Holocaust because it was either a WP:BLP violation, or because it wasn't the "proper legal term", or various other claims. I then specifically sourced the term "mass murder". Unsurprisingly, I was immediately reverted, with a claim of "mixed cites, synthesis". Fourdee is right when he says this isn't about a content dispute, but he's wrong when he says it's "about cabal or gang of admins who work together to silence opponents." In fact, it is about his own disruptive behavior. Jayjg (talk) 03:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that's right. You can't combine sources like that and SV later removed that citation herself. That's a content/policy dispute though, not the reason we are here.
You linked to WP:POINT as disruptive behavior (there is a separate page Wikipedia:Disruptive editing) - WP:POINT describes ironic parodies to illustrate that someone or some policy is wrong, which is not what I'm doing. As to whether this behavior is disruptive that's what we're here for, and so far I have not heard any impartial (uninvolved) persons labeling this as clear disruption. I just want the question answered: is this behavior "disruptive" if so which parts of it do I need to change to avoid being blocked? Blocking for disruption is only allowed by consensus of "neutral parties" and I wanted the chance to make my case and ask for that neutral decision before it happens. Fourdee 05:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Fourdee has decided to enlighten other users about his opinions in new and innovative (read: totally unrelated) forums.[37] I don't know what to make of this exactly, but since the post doesn't address the article in anyway, I think it is trolling. nadav (talk) 09:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

My comments directly address the conflict there. I'm not sure what "trolling" means in this sense but I have always heard it used to mean something like "affecting a false position merely to get a rise out of people". I'm not playing around. Fourdee 09:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The word has other meanings. My use of the word was closer to WP:TROLL#Misplaced criticism. I'll assume good faith, but you should know that these kinds of posts come across badly. nadav (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

After reading the above and viewing the diffs, I have blocked User:Fourdee for a period of 48 hours for tendentious editing ^demon[omg plz] 17:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Could people please please (pretty please) stop citing essays when blocking people? I know that TE covers material that's already covered by other policies, but then, please, use those policies as support? It just looks bad. Really really bad. Bladestorm 17:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
ZOMG! SLIM VIRGIN! JAYJG! CABALS! ADMIN ABUSE! Will (talk) 17:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
He didn't cite it (i.e. as per WP:TE); he linked it. Big difference. El_C 17:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
True, and in any case, tendentious editing is a subset of disruptive editing, a widely accepted guideline the violation of which is grounds for blocking. I think linking the essay was just an attempt to be specific about the subtype of disruptiveness involved. For what it's worth, 2 unblock requests by Fourdee have since been declined, the second by me. MastCell Talk 22:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk page protected; objections?[edit]

As Fourdee (talk · contribs) has posted his 3rd unblock template (6 minutes after I'd declined the second and warned him about abusing the template), I've protected his talk page for the duration of his block. The 3rd unblock request has been declined by ElinorD (talk · contribs). The block and page protection are again submitted here for review. MastCell Talk 23:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick Image question[edit]

Regarding the images,

just ebecause they were taken off a web page does not mean they are copyvios, do they? Especially they have a FUR (ignoring the validity at the moment). --soum talk 15:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'm afraid it does mean they are copyright violations. The screenshot tag is for screenshots taken by the user, not right click and saved from Apple's website. Neil  15:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No, my question is whether using a screenshot, even if it is from the developers' website, is allowed here under WP:FU as long as there isnt a public NDA-free release available? Of course with a valid rationale and a proper tag like saying it is a non standard fair usage, thats not the point of the question. --soum talk 15:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Saying as they are screenshots of an unreleased piece of software (OSX 10.5), I'd say they are fairly irreplaceable. That said, I doubt the iChat or Finder articles are severely lacking just because these pictures got removed... EVula // talk // // 16:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, the suitability is an issue, which we were discussing at the article talk page, but it was not the point here. What I asked was just because a screenshot was copied off a web page, does it become a copyvio regardless of everything else? Yeah, I know the policy and as I interpret it, its not (assuming its irreplaceable and has a valid FUR). I just want to know if my interpretation is missing anything. --soum talk 17:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Does the page have a copyright statement? Guy (Help!) 18:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Which page? The Apple page? Yeah it does. But the question is not just about this specific set of images. It is about any generic screenshot of a copyrighted software. If any such screenshot is retrieved from the software title publishers' website, and uploaded here, does it become a copyright infringement suitable for CSD #G12? The way I see it is that FU still applies to it, so it is not a clear case of delete at sight (as these can be a valid fair usage). I just want clarification that I am interpreting correctly. Again, I am not referring to these set of images. --soum talk 18:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, it is a copyright violation in all cases. The interface is copyrighted and we reproduce it without a proper authorization. Fair Use is an exception that permits to infringe the rule, and I don't think there is any clear cut rule copyvio/non copyvio there. The fact that the screenshot has been taken by an apple employee and that apple is communicating using these screenshots is a risk factor. My own personal view is that the fair use rationale was valid (assuming there is no way to make the picture yourself for the moment), but I am not a lawyer. -- lucasbfr talk 18:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
To answer Soum's question - if you have taken the image from a website, it is not a screenshot, by definition. A screenshot is an image you have taken yourself of a screen, not an image taken by someone else of someone else's screen that you right-click and saved. That is a copyright violation. Neil  13:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
No, Neil. That is completely wrong. Whoever presses the print-screen button is irrelevant. It does not have to be the uploader pressing the print-screen button to qualify as a screenshot. Many screens are taken from promotional material released by their copyright owners. As long as these are sourced, and include a valid fair-use rationale, then they are OK for use. - hahnchen 19:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The stolen image of Mac 10.5 is being used on Graphical user interface, Mac OS X and operating system - definitely not fair use there (plenty of free images can be used to illustrate those). A fair use image could possibly be argued for on Mac OS X 10.5 ("identification of and critical commentary on the software in question"), but the {{screenshot}} tag is invalid - these are not screenshots; they are images stolen from the Apple website. Neil  13:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The time machine and Ichat pictures taken from Apple's website are also not fair use (just being used as decoration), ao have also been deleted as blatant copyvios. I strongly believe the remaining Image:MacOSX10-5.jpg image, now solely being used on Mac OSX 10.5 remains a copy vio, as the screenshot rationale is for screenshots, not a stolen propietary image based on a screenshot. Neil  13:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I've deleted it. There was no source, and the rationale claimed it was a screenshot. It is a blatant copyright violation (WP:CSD#G12) - note the big copyright notice at http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ Neil  13:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Apple can put all the scary warnings on their website they want. No-one is denying that they hold the copyright to it, but fair use and more specifically our non-free content says that using the images is allowable. Whether you or an Apple employee took the screenshot is irrelevant. Of course whether the images are being used appropriately i.e. with critical commentary is important. the wub "?!" 22:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

category deletion v. depopulation[edit]

Recently, some admins speedily deleted a bunch of user categories without depopulating them first. I believe any categories should be depopulated if they are to be deleted. Populated categories that are deleted create unnecessary redlinks. If an admin is deleting a user category, the admin should inform all entries in the category first to facilitate depopulation. Think about if an island sinks with all people still on it. WooyiTalk to me? 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Surely they'll notice it by seeing that the category has been deleted? It's easier for 100 people to make 1 quick edit each than for one person to make 100 edits. Friday (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
But many users do not periodically check the bottoms of their userpage. Redlinks on userpages are harmful to the project. WooyiTalk to me? 21:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Harmful how? I think a category I was in was deleted once.. at some point I noticed and removed it, but it wasn't hurting anything, as far as I know. Friday (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
A category with a huge population should not be deleted summarily, period. Residents on an island should be informed when the island is sinking. A redlink category with whole lot of residents are simply ugly and detrimental. WooyiTalk to me? 21:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
It may be ugly, but it's detrimental to who? A little bit of ugliness of userpages harms no one at all. Moreschi Talk 10:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Shrugs, it's more that it's simply a sloppy admin action. We have workpages for the Wikignomes to "go to it". If you feel the need to speedy delete a category, but don't have the inclination (for whatever reason) to "finish", then simply post the category at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working or Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working/User, whichever applies. - jc37 10:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I have been working to depopulate these categories. I know how to find them and what to do to fix them. If someone wants to give me a list I can work off that, but either way, I'll get it sorted out. The bigger question for me is what to do when the user re-adds the category once it is removed twice despite an edit summary that asks them not to. Example can be found here. --After Midnight 0001 12:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot of "support/oppose" redlinked cats people like to have on their user pages, and it's typically within the "leeway" we generally give. My general thought is: If they are determined to have a redlinked cat, let them. (As long as having it isn't disrutive in some way.) - jc37 13:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
If a user category has an enormous population and the entrants like it, it probably should not be deleted. WooyiTalk to me? 13:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about that, but it should probably at least not be speedily deleted, in order to prevent disruption. "Speedy" closures, and speedy deletions are under discussion at several talk pages, and from what I can see, most seem to agree that the political issue cats should have been deleted, but that they should have been nominated first. (Though I wonder at following that up with speedily deleting even more cats...) At this point, let's just agree to both the former and the latter points. No comment atm about the political ideology cats, or the "other" group of cats summarily deleted (the latter of which I may still take to DRV). - jc37 14:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
oh yawn, more user page categories being summarily deleted for no reason at all except a few with nothing better to do have decided they don't like it. SchmuckyTheCat 23:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Watchlist[edit]

Can a few people add Sivaji: The Boss to their watchlist. This is likely to be edited very frequently over the next few days and the editors (good and bad) will mostly be anons. Tintin 10:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this needs to be added on the pgkbot watchlist as well. One of the most expensive films to be ever released in India, was released only a few days ago and will attract lot of vandalism. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
<misza13> computer cvp add Sivaji: The Boss
<pgkbot> Added Sivaji:_The_Boss to watchlist, "No reason given". Expires indefinite
<misza13> bonkbonk :P
<misza13> XD
IRC Log Violation! IRC Log Violation! Censure! Abuse! Terror! Fattening! ;-) Georgewilliamherbert 23:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Actually, it was released just this morning. Tintin 11:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:Image012 (2).jpg[edit]

Image:Image012 (2).jpg is the picture of an 11-year old which contains his contact information. Could somebody please speedy delete? Corvus cornix 23:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Has the user who uploaded been contacted? Neil  23:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah, yes he has. Good good good. Neil  23:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. Corvus cornix 23:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

He has now created a new image at Image:Nathan Galea .jpg with the same contact information and same information about his age. Corvus cornix 02:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted. -- Infrogmation 03:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Corvus cornix 04:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Question[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Speedy deleted the article in question. See explanation at bottom. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 02:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Long story short: Gene Poole and I are in a dispute and he keeps adding a comment of mine that he took completely out of context onto this page (see here). I've MFD'd it (if you ask me it should be speedied) but I think his continual adding of this comment constitutes as abuse. He has threatened me before, and two administrators are already involved, but right now neither of them are online. What do I do? --Captain Wikify Argh! 23:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not the disengagement I asked you to do this morning...
Could you please let an uninvolved admin deal with his page? You have an obvious conflict of interest and it's just exacerbating things. I'm involved enough not to want to judge if that page constitutes a WP:NPA issue or an attack page, but if you'll leave it alone and let others reading ANI deal with it, it will help. Georgewilliamherbert 23:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to break any rules but I'm certainly not letting him slander me like that. That's why I keep reverting and why I left a comment here. --Captain Wikify Argh! 23:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
If this keeps up for another hour, I predict both of you will be blocked for 48 hrs to cool off. What is it going to take for the two of you to step back and stop provoking each other? Georgewilliamherbert 23:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
See note on talk page.--Captain Wikify Argh! 23:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
On my talk page, you partly wrote: I've had it with Gene and his childish actions.. This is the problem. Neither of you are acting in a civil and responsible manner regarding the other one's actions right now. It's impossible for me to assess blame for "who started it". It's clear that you're both taking provocative responsive measures over and over again rather than shutting up and cooling off. The normal admin response to this is a cooldown block on both parties. If you do not wish an admin to block you, you need to stop continuing and escalating the debate, now. (applies equally to Gene).
Knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert 00:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
[38], [39], [40]. Oh, and [41]. --Captain Wikify Argh! 00:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
For those just coming in, Captain Wikify has announced s/he is taking a wikibreak. Hopefully this both defuses the immediate situation and doesn't lead to them leaving the project permanently, as one bout of interpersonal conflict doesn't affect their history of having been a productive contributor. Georgewilliamherbert 01:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the comment from the page, which may or may not survive a pending MfD, and if Gene reinstates the comment then I will speedy-delete the page because at that point it will clearly be being used as an instrument of harassment. As a general matter, pages of this nature, which have the effect of perpetuating quarrels and incivilities rather than letting them fade into the past, should be severely deprecated. Newyorkbrad 01:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have speedy deleted this subpage. This page only served to antagonize those who may have made a mistake in there wiki experience. The fact is, we all ahve made a mistake and focusing on those mistakes and keeping a record is unhelpful and unencylopedic. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 02:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Resumption of sockpuppetry & disruption by Dr CareBear[edit]

Can I have advice of other admins please re User:Dr CareBear who has just come off a 1 week block for using sockpuppets (Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Dr CareBear) to evade a block for disrupting POV editing to multiple neuroleptic medication articles, failing to engage in discussion when asked (see also Wikiproject discussion) and reverting repeatedly other editors who removed the alarmist POV pushing. Original block actions had been reviewed here on WP:AN/I#Request_for_outside_admin_review (but can't seem to find it now in archives).

Now used User:203.177.247.166 for http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Promazine&diff=prev&oldid=138469990 - As per Wikipedia:Sock puppetry#Avoiding scrutiny from other editors, I feel that again using other accounts to continue the POV push against consensus of other editors and failing to engage in talk page discussion as previously asked to do is being disruptive to the community wikipedian process. I'm mindful to reblock for an increased duration, would this be correct interpretion and use of policies though, and if so, how long should such a reblock be for ? David Ruben Talk 02:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I blocked the IP for 72 hours as an obvious reincarnation of User:Dr CareBear, making identical tendentious edits and with the same WHOIS as other CareBear socks, before noticing this thread. I'm happy to have the block adjusted if it's felt to be appropriate by others. User:Dr CareBear is a persistent, disruptive puppeteer, though, and I was about to re-block the sockmaster account as well; I'll wait and let others chime in first. MastCell Talk 04:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Angry German Kid[edit]

Could somebody please delete and salt Angry German Kid? it has been deleted four times already, and just got recreated yet again. Corvus cornix 07:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted and salted. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 08:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: Change of policy on "established editors".[edit]

I've been seeing a major problem with "semi-protected" pages especially in relation to the Brock Lesnar page. Though there are numerous other pages with the same problem, My personal experience is with that page. That page is on an "indefinite full protection"(it keeps being re-protected when the time expires, for months on end) apparently due to a single vandal making sockpuppet accounts. Apparently this person makes "sleeper accounts" and waits for a few days to be able to edit semi-protected articles and then vandalizes them. I wanted to know if it would be possible to change the policy to make it so editors can't edit semi-protected pages unless they have both waited 5 days as well as have made at least a dozen good non-vandalism edits. This would erase the possibility of making "sleeper accounts" because most vandals would not go through the trouble of making 12 good edits simply to make one vandalism edit which will instantly get reverted and get them banned as a sockpuppet. I believe this would drastically decrease the amount of vandalism to semi-protected pages on Wikipedia and prevent pages such as Brock Lesnar (just a single example among many) from being indefinitely protected due to fear of a single vandal. We're currently being held hostage by vandals with "sleeper" sockpuppets who are able to vandalize pages after waiting the amount of time needed to edit semi-protected pages. We need to make it so in order to edit semi-protected pages you need at least 12 good edits and must be a registered user for at least 5 days. When I say "good edits" I simply mean edits of anykind because if they were vandalism, the person would be banned before ever being able to get to the necessary 12 to vandalize semi-protected pages. Both the waiting period and the minimum edit-count would be required to curtail many vandals who vandalize semi-protected pages. It should be both a waiting period of a few days as well as an edit minimum prior to being able to edit semi-protected pages. If they had a choice they would choose to build sleeper sock puppets, making several at a time just to wait out the time period and then vandalize pages. There needs to be both a waiting period as well as an edit minimum prior to being able to edit semi-protected pages. I got support for this when I posted it on Wikipedia talk:Protection policy and was told I should bring it here which has higher traffic. I would like some input on this proposal as well as methods for enacting such a policy. I believe it would drastically improve our ability to fight vandalism against semi-protected articles and spot vandals prior to them being able to edit semi-protected articles. I also posted this in the village pump.Wikidudeman (talk) 11:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

As soon as I read this, my foremost thought was "this is why we need a moderation system, where edits need to be approved". But on second thoughts, it is going to be havily abused. How about we increase the threshold to, say 2 weeks and 100 edits with no blocks in the last week? In the meanwhile, if they want to edit protected articles, they will put a request, and established editors will review their contribs and promote them prematurely if their contribs are legitimate. --soum talk 11:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by "abused"? Perhaps a 12 edit minimum is too small but a 100 edit minimum is too much. Perhaps somewhere in between such as 20-30 "good edits"(edits that don't result in a ban) plus a 1 week waiting period before being able to edit semi-protected articles? And as you say, legitimate users will be able to request the changes if they want them to be made prior to that. It's a lot better than our current scenario.Wikidudeman (talk) 12:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Abused as in a lot of articles could get into moderation mode, against our motto that anyone can edit. And 20 good edits seems way too low. We cannot define "good edits" as taking an article from stub to FA in two weeks. Typo fixing and formatting also counts as "good edits", and it is not really tough to create a throwaway account and pile up 2 typo fixes before going on a short burst of rampage (if a vandal is really determined). Maybe something like 3-4 edits a day (which adds up to 50 odd edits over a two week period) is better! --soum talk 13:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • This could work, but probably not here on Wikipedia. Maybe it should be tried at test.wikipedia first, before being used here, just to see if it's popular enough, and if it causes any problems... --SunStar Net talk 12:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I believe it would be a definite improvement to Wikipedia to help curtail vandalism on semi-protected articles. See what you can do help get this proposal tested and enacted.Wikidudeman (talk) 12:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Response to Soumyasch: "Good edits" would be simply defined as ANY edits. I.E. edits that result in a block. I don't see how 20 edits is too low. How many vandals will go through the effort to make 20 edits and wait a week just to vandalize a page one time? Not that many, that's for sure. If not 20 edits then 30 seems reasonable. 30 edits and a 7 day waiting period before one can edit semi-protected articles. Anything higher is unreasonable, Tests are too difficult to enforce and are tedious.Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Sleeper accounts are not really a problem, they spend a week brewing up 10 accounts, and get them all blocked in an hour. Accounts that are clearly just there to edit semi-protected pages can be treated as single purpose accounts. (H) 13:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, It's definitly a problem. Check out the Brock Lesnar page for an example of a specific user who has (apparantly) been creating sleeper accounts then vandalizing the page. My proposal would prevent this from occurring in most cases.Wikidudeman (talk) 13:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
A few reverts, a few blocks, the guy is back at square one and are article is as it was. No big deal. (H) 13:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Two Admins there are using it as justification for basically an indefinite full protection of the article. I tried requesting an un-protected and it was denied, I tried talking to the two admins and they both refused to discuss it any further, I requested a comment concerning the dispute and got none. So I think this might remove their (in my opinion already invalid) justification for fully protecting the article as well as would help wikipedia semi-protected articles drastically.Wikidudeman (talk) 13:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This is, hopefully, a complete response to the points mentioned above. The issue with Brock Lesnar is that the person doing the vandalism has had dozens (literally) of sockpuppets, not just one or two. over the period of months. The goal of the protection is to wait until he gets bored and goes somewhere else.

Very similar to moderation is Wikipedia:Flagged revisions, which will help a lot once it's implemented.

You ought to suggest policy changes on the village pump, not this page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Privacy advice[edit]

A good idea on the mailing list: add a link to a page with privacy advice to the welcome template. Something about not adding personal information, especially if you are a minor, and being mindful of the potential for people to try to find your personal details if you edit contentious subjects. Guy (Help!) 18:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Selective release of incidental checkuser discovery of Tor usage[edit]

Hello, At the CharlotteWebb Rfa[42] a user with Checkuser rights revealed that the candidate had used TOR proxies to edit.

Is this disclosure acceptable to the community?

There seem to be a few possible answers to this:

  1. Yes it is acceptable to reveal Tor usage by all editors (anonymous or non-anonymous) as the use of Tor is against policy. To be consistant, Tor usage by all editors should be revealed.
  2. Yes it is acceptable to reveal Tor usage, but only for editors seeking Administrator privileges. There is no need for consistency, only names that randomly come up during a checkuser will be revealed and even then, only if the one performing the checkuser chooses to reveal them. No attempt will be made to reveal Tor usage for all candidates for Administrator.
  3. Yes, it is acceptable to reveal Tor usage by editors seeking Administrator rights, but it is not acceptable to reveal Tor usage by current Administators.
  4. No, Tor usage by non-anonymous users should not be revealed if no checkuser was indended to be performed for that user.

I may have missed some choices. Uncle uncle uncle 00:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Users can be blocked for using Tor, in which case the blocking summary will reveal it. So revealing it without blocking can't be any worse. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Clarify, please... TOR IPs are blocked on sight, but are users who have used TOR to edit Wikipedia specifically blocked as well? To be clear, I'm not talking about autoblocks here. My understanding is that Accounts that use TOR are not blocked, just the TOR IPs themselves. - CHAIRBOY () 01:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of autoblocks. It isn't standard to bock users just because they have previously editited from tor. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the proper forum, if any, is the [[m:Ombudsman_commission|Ombudsman commission] if there is concern about violating policy. However, I don't think any personally identifiable information was released. In fact the policy seems to specifically note that there is nothing amiss when saying that the user is part of a large system the probability of releasing personally identifiable information is low. m:CheckUser_Policy It might have been handled differently but that's a different issue I think. I would hate to see this get out of hand. JodyB talk] 01:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) It doesn't sound like he sought out CharlotteWebb to checkuser ... he encountered her username while checkusering vandals. As for revealing that information? Good grief, no, that's inappropriate ... but what is there to discuss here? I think a WP:RFC would be more appropriate. --BigDT 01:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


By creating an account you are allowing Wikipedia to track your edits despite your anonymous position. So I don't see the point in blocking usernames for using tor. (H) 01:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
My thoughts: Checkuser can be quite personal and it shouldn't be used liberally ("Let's go and check up the IP addresses of a random user over lunch while my work is being printed."). Checkuser should be reserved when requested (in good faith via WP:RFCU) or perhaps during disruptive sockpuppet/meatpuppet activity at WP:AN and WP:AN/I. On the other hand, it might not hurt to run checkusers on potential Administrator candidates to ensure they are not former banned users. I'm not sure if people are running them as the candidacies come in, but if they are, I think that people should know because not everyone is happy to have some part of their IP nature revealed (as demonstrated above).
However, I do think that if it is demonstrated that a candidate is using Tor/open proxies to edit, then it should be revealed. Lest the candidate gets blocked instead and the reason cannot be revealed (transparency?).
So I guess it comes down, to me, to whether "silent" checkusers are being performed on RfA candidates - something that should've been said beforehand. I'm more inclined to say no to checkusers unless there is consensus to allow them. After all, a checkuser isn't part of the RfA process, from what I can gather. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Read what Jayjg said on the RFA - he was NOT setting out to checkuser CharlotteWebb. He was checkusering vandals, found TOR nodes, and when listing names of users on those nodes, found her name. --BigDT 01:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone made a great point about blocking TOR on the RFA. We're blocking it to prevent admin accounts from being hijacked. But how are we preventing it if admins are IP-block exempt. If the whole reason to block TOR was just to avoid admin account hijackings, we've done nothing, because admins can still edit. And you know what, we probably have a few admins editing via TOR right now. Also, is there and can there be a checkuser log of checkusers performed (not the results, just the fact that it was done). Also, if it's possible, it could be like the oversight log, which can only be viewed by oversight users. I have a feeling that we have a few checkusers who use it whenever they feel like it, included for all RFA candidates. --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 01:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The whole reason to block TOR is not just to avoid admin account hijackings. Tor is an anonymous proxy. It is used almost exclusively by vandals, trolls, and banned users in order to evade detection. This is why we block open proxies, not admin hacking, and it is why Tor is being blocked too. There already is a CheckUser log, and there always has been, and it is viewable to all CheckUsers on all projects. I happen to think IP-exempt is a bad idea, especially if it's just for admins as a whole, which is needless hierarchy. Finally, please keep your assumptions of bad faith ("we have a few checkusers who use it whenever they feel like it"), especially for serious matters like CheckUser to yourself. Dmcdevit·t 02:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying the reason TOR is blocked. And about my comment, exactly, it's something serious, that shouldn't me misused. I didn't know there was a log, but thanks for telling me. I guess that eliminates the chance of someone doing checkusers against whoever they feel like. --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 02:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, but if TORs are blocked, how has CW been editing? Mackan79 02:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of that before also. He/she could be editing from their own IP, or from a different proxy server. --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 02:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Not all TORs are blocked, as it is not obvious that one is editing on a TOR IP until someone uses it to vandalize Wikipedia, at which time it's checked (for other editors using that IP, normally to catch sleeper accounts), logged and blocked. In this case. the Checkuser prepatory to blocking the IP found that CW had been editing from these IP's. SirFozzie 02:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, what Jayjg said here was that he had run across this situation with CW several times but hadn't done anything about it. Perhaps these are details we can't have; I don't know. I think a problem occurs when it reaches the stage of revealing this in an RfA, though, which does harm that editor in a way they couldn't exactly anticipate. It might also be worth considering whether this approach is the best way to enforce any of the objectives which have been offered, especially with the self-contradictory exemption mentioned above. Per User:Uncle, we currently have either policy 2 or 3 under his list, which I'm still curious to see defended. Mackan79 03:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
For the record, the m:privacy policy largely concerns itself with "personally identifiable" information -- mentioning that someone has used Tor at some point doesn't seem, strictly, to qualify. The m:checkuser policy mentions that "Unless someone is violating policy with their actions (e.g. massive bot vandalism or spam) and revealing information about them is necessary to stop the disruption, it is a violation of the privacy policy to reveal their IP..." -- true, we have a policy against the use of open proxies. That policy, with particular reference to Tor, has recently been more and more controversial, I've noticed; likewise, it's not immediately clear to me personally what "disruption," if any, the user was engaged in or planned to engage in. It's natural enough to run into a user while in the process of checking Tor -- finding the information and releasing the information are two very distinct steps, however. Finally, I haven't yet run across any material relating to the release of private information that mentions "except if they're running for admin, then release away." I'm not ready to lead any witchhunts on this, but for the record, I am very concerned and earnestly hope this wasn't done casually, and won't be done casually in the future. – Luna Santin (talk) 02:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
That is somewhat true, but whereas before the user CharlotteWebb was completely anonymous at about one in 4 billion (or whatever the population of the earth currently is). Now, due to the reporting of information obtained from a checkuser released perhaps in violation of "If you're in any doubt, give no detail" policy [[m:CheckUser_policy#Information_release],|CharlotteWebb's identity is now narrowed down to the much smaller number of Tor users. By stating that CharlotteWebb is using Tor, Jay has in addition revealed nearly complete information about the timing for Charlotte's ip usage(through the ability to see a user's edit log) to anyone running a Tor entry node who can now compare their usage logs against Charlotte's Wikipedia usage logs to determine with high probability what her IP address is. Yes, that check could have been done before, but Jay's disclosure has very much narrowed down the number of places to look. It is perhaps worse than revealing an ISP, because most ISP's have legal privacy policies which may not be present on the Tor network. Uncle uncle uncle] 05:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
It would seem WP:NOP needs a revision sooner rather than later, to say in effect (per one good suggestion here) that open proxies are heavily discouraged and may be blocked any time for cause, but aren't categorically prohibited. This could involve caveats such as a prohibition for admins if necessary (to accompany the prohibition on multiple admin accounts). I generally agree with the arguments that we can't have some people openly disregarding policy, though that's mostly separate from how to check, but the the policy should probably resolve both issues. Mackan79 04:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
But you see, they are categorically prohibited. Wikipedia:No open proxies is a local copy of m:Meta:No open proxies, a Foundation-wide policy since March 2004. --bainer (talk) 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I assume you've seen Jimbo's statement that this should change, though? [43] I'm suggesting one way to go about that, which seems a bit more pressing with situations like this one in mind. Mackan79 15:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
But interestingly enough, m:Meta:No open proxies actually points users who are caused hardship by the policy to a page titled "Wikipedia:Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall" :::::

"This policy is known to cause hardship to some editors, who must use open proxies to circumvent censorship where they live; a well-known example is the government of the People's Republic of China, which attempts to prevent its citizens from reading or editing Wikipedia. Chinese readers who wish to edit Meta should read Wikipedia:Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall."

Uncle uncle uncle 06:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
You've clearly just read the title, because the page advises people to stop using Tor if they find themselves blocked, and use the HTTPS gateway instead (because at the time that was written, only the HTTP gateways were blocked by the Great Firewall). --bainer (talk) 10:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The meta policy permits/encourages proxies to be softblocked only, allowing users to edit through them. You must know this. The way, the truth, and the light 06:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
It certainly does not. "Users are prohibited from editing Wikimedia projects through open or anonymous proxies." It's pretty clear. --bainer (talk) 10:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
It's open to interpretation. Here on en-wiki, proxies are generally softblocked. Please see the related talk pages here and on meta. - hahnchen 12:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • A few points. It's not exactly rare that we (that is, we checkuser operators) say that an editor has been using Tor; in fact, we do so on a regular basis. Usually it's of the form "we can't tell whether X is a sockpuppet of Y, because Y's using Tor." We don't penalize people in any way for using Tor; we just plug the holes. But we've never made any effort to keep such knowledge secret. I've certainly seen Charlotte Webb's name on user lists from Tor proxies when running checkuser; I've certainly wondered why an apparently good editor like CW does that, but that was about it; there was no particular reason at the time to delve any further. Uncle uncle etc -- are you sure about the exposure there? I don't know a lot about the Tor architecture, but it seems to me that sure, someone running a Tor node could make such an analysis, but why would they think that CW had used their Tor node? It would be a fishing expedition that would come up dry almost all the time, and come up with lots of false hits, give that there are hundreds of thousands of Tor users. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarifications. It seems to me there's a significant difference between keeping it secret and specifically revealing it in an RfA, though. If practice is not to block all Tor addresses, or even to reveal the information, then I'd think that would be applied consistently across the board. I haven't seen the comments on the mailing list, but Jay's initial explanation was that he revealed it because he considered this an issue of trust for prospective administrators; I think there are several problems with a checkuser making that kind of determination though, and particularly in the manner here. Mackan79 16:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The Tor FAQ lists such an attack vector. "As mentioned above, it is possible for an observer who can view both you and either the destination website or your Tor exit node to correlate timings of your traffic as it enters the Tor network and also as it exits. Tor does not defend against such a threat model." Now that Charlotte's Tor usage has been revealed, the servers running the Tor entry nodes can use her edit logs to perform time correlation against their own logs. Previously the entry nodes had no idea where her traffic went - now they do, it went to Wikipedia. And likewise - previously no one knew where Charlotte's traffic at Wikipedia came from, now they do, it came from Tor, so if you want to know Charlotte's IP address, search the Tor entry node logs. Uncle uncle uncle 06:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand that attack vector. The initial node would have to know that it's Charlotte and can then cross reference the time of requests and actions at the remote end. That doesn't work in this case since (a) the source doesn't know that it's Charlotte and (b) the edit times wikipedia gives are only accurate to the minute. To look down the access log on an entry node and decide access from a source coincides to within the same minute as an edit Charlotte makes must therefore be Charlotte. That would be ridiculous, anyone doing general webbrowsing at the time that Charlotte is accessing wikipedia is reasonably likely to be making requests in the same minute as Charlotte is editing, across the whole network there are likely to be thousands of users making requests in the same minute... --pgk 16:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, this is also being discussed on mail:wikien-l, including some responses from Jayjg. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there a place to find this without signing up? Mackan79 16:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Archives are here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/ -- Jonel | Speak 18:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I have to say, people are talking there a great deal about privacy, but I think that misses the point. My concern is that checkuser provides quite powerful information, which probably reveals a fair amount of shenanigans going on around wikipedia. To minimize the possibility that such information could be used unfairly, we seem to have rather strict limits on its use -- most importantly no fishing, no explanation of results, and a log where other checkusers are supposed to ensure that nobody is looking people up without good reason. This may not be obvious, but I think it strongly suggests that checkusers shouldn't use the incidental information they glean in any way that could appear selective, regardless of what their intent in any situation might be. Mackan79 18:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Related question: is checkuser a lifetime privilege? Members of ArbComm are normally granted checkuser privileges. Don't those privileges expire when their ArbComm term expires? --John Nagle 16:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • There's no particular time limit; it is incorrect that members of ArbCom are normally granted such privileges (some of us have them, others of us lack either the interest, the technical background, or the masochistic tendencies to ask for them.) You don't have to be on ArbCom to get the privilege; some of us are, some of us used to be, some of us never have been. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Incivility of Labyrinth13 (talk · contribs)[edit]

This user has been involved in disputes at Broadcast signal intrusion and Max Headroom pirating incident. The user has repeatedly deleted entire sections of the talk page, claiming it contained libel and personal attacks against him. After undoing these edits initially, he replied with these two extremely incivil edit summaries: BSI 1 and MHPI 1. Deleting the comments for a third time, he replied with these edit summaries BSI 2 and MHPI 2. Please discipline this rude and incivil editor, who is himself falsely claiming personal attacks and libel against him. Thanks. Parsecboy 16:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Labyrinth13 has made a series of incivil edits against me and other editors, here, herehere, here, and here, as well as here. Please render assistance. Thanks. Parsecboy 16:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please get an admin over to look at all of the talk pages where RHKlein accuses me of theft, and the called me a liar and a coward. All I was trying to do was remove the libel and false statements when this idiot named Parsecboy showed up and started trying to throw his weight around.
To read RHKlein's libel for yourself, go to: Talk Broadcast signal intrusion
And to:Talk Max Headroom pirating incident
Labyrinth13 17:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
This is what I'm dealing with. Labyrinth13 is trying to remove relevant comments from the talk pages, falsely claiming libel and personal attacks as justification. His disruptive editing and numerous personal attacks warrant blocking. Parsecboy 17:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have indef blocked this account. I noted he had just come off a 24 block for exactly the same reasons on exactly the same articles. LessHeard vanU 21:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
(further comment) It looks as if Labyrinth13 was deleted at his own request prior to my issuing the block. LessHeard vanU 22:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Shadowbot3 Unicode problem[edit]

Shadowbot3 is having problems with high-byte Unicode characters all over the place. A number of people of reported the issue at User talk:Shadow1 and User talk:Shadowbot3. Could someone please block it until Shadow1 can work out the problem. There's already a ton of cleanup to do to repair the damage done so far. Mike Dillon 16:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours. Let us know if more time is necessary. - KrakatoaKatie 17:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Crap. Looks like I've got some work to do before I add that Unicode support into the bot. Thanks for blocking it, I'll work on fixing the problem. Shadow1 (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Scheherazade Requested move[edit]

Resolved: NO immediate problem

On 5 June I started a move requests (ShahrazadScheherazade). The request was a supported unanimously and the page was moved on 10 June. The discussion was then reopened by Eclecticology. The discussion was then closed again by Kintetsubuffalo, then reopened again by Eclecticology. The reason given by Eclecticology in the edit summary for the reopening was "nobody has the right to close talk page discussions". Is this correct? --Philip Stevens 20:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you can close talk page discussions, but it isn't required, so if this other person insists on opening it again, I would recommend that you just let it sit open and let him speak his peace. Eventually discussion will die down on its own. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Article RFC looks like a user conduct RFC[edit]

Can I get some opinions on Talk:La_Toya_Jackson#Request_for_comment? Rhythmnation2004 (talk · contribs) opened this RFC about actions that I took on the article. However, the RFC seems to resemble a user conduct RFC instead of an article RFC. In other words, he's looking for comments about my actions rather than about the issue my actions were focused on (the removal of items without reliable sources). I tried to explain the difference to him but he refuses to listen to any statement I make it appears. Any thoughts would be appreciated, Metros 20:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Meerkat Manor[edit]

Some users keep on adding to page Meerkat Manor more information about particular meerkats and groups, and other users keep querying it and deleting it. Some of this information has been "in and out like planes at an airport". Is it possible to run an IP check on some of these users? If one of their IP's is area-specific to whatever internet nodes serve the Kuruman area of South Africa, that user may genuinely be someone in the Kalahari Meerkat Project and therefore with reliable information. Anthony Appleyard 20:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, technically, it is possible. The correct place to request a checkuser would be WP:RCU. In a case like this, however, it's highly doubtful that a checkuser request would be accepted. As far as I can see, this is a content dispute. And it's precisely for those, that we have WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:V. Since WP is not a publisher of original thought, the burden to provide a proper citation to back up an edit is on the editor making the edit, and not on the person questioning its legitimacy. If new material is challenged, it's up to the editor who added it to provide a reliable source. Addressing this issue on the article's talk page would probably be the most constructive and reasonable way to deal with this. Please bear in mind, though, that I know nothing about this show (that is one of the reasons why adding proper sources is important - with sources, I can verify the information myself; in the absence of reliable sources, I have to take the information at face value). This isn't about choosing sides, it's really about verifiability. --S up? 22:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:COIN[edit]

We need more admins watching WP:COIN. At the moment we have at least two active COI spammers making big messes. We need to block these are quickly as possible to help keep the messes from getting larger! See [44] and [45]. Nip it in the bud, and all that. Thanks! Jehochman Talk 23:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Gene Poole[edit]

Gene Poole recently had a page of his deleted because it was abusive and attacked legitimate editors. Well, he created it again, this time on a separate website. The only reason he's doing it is to spite me, and I personally find it childish and sick. See my talk page and contributions for the full story. Honestly, I think this constitutes as abusive and could merit legal action; yes, I know I'm not supposed to go there, but this is borderline abuse and something should be done. According to him, the dispute has been resolved, but as you can see he obviously can't go without having the last word. (By the way, the reason I'm involved is that he's repeatedly adding my name to the page and a comment of mine taken completely out of context to make it seem like I'm a vandal. --Captain Wikify Argh! 01:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe it's time for you to stand up for your actions? So you called him a dick. Own up to it like a man instead of trying to cover it up. DailyHousefixer 02:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
That's not even close to the full story. And I have the sneaking suspicion you're Gene, anyway. --Captain Wikify Argh! 02:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's the full story: YOU created the only "dispute" here, when you breezed onto my talk page and posted threats and personal attacks entirely without justification or provokation. For doing so you received several admin warnings, yet you continued, and - amazingly - still continue to whine and carry on like you are somehow the wronged party. When you sincerely apologise for your actions I will consider the matter closed. Until then it is certainly not "resolved". You need to learn that you cannot attack other editors with impugnity just because you damned well feel like it, or because someone else convinced you to attack me on their behalf. If you don't like hearing that, then it's just too bad for you. --Gene_poole 02:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
We have no control over external sites, as you well know. What do you propose we do about it? ViridaeTalk 02:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Gene Poole, your creation of this attack page, albeit on an external site, is grossly inappropriate. Contrary to popular belief, there is precedent for blocking editors who create attack pages on external sites, although those cases were admittedly more egregious than this one is to date. Your insistence on perpetuating rather than seeking to resolve the disputes created by other users' incivilities or ill-thought remarks—disputes which otherwise might be fleeting ones—is quite disturbing to me, and if you persist, I for one will consider it necessary to consider whether you should be welcome to continue editing here while persisting in this behavior. Newyorkbrad 02:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
As I have not created an "attack page" I fail to see the point of these comments. Exactly who or what have I "attacked" ? If others choose to attack me that's their business. If I choose to quote some of those attacks verbatim on my personal webspace that's mine. Nobody is being forced or directed to read it, and both the page and the link leading to it are obviously humorous in intent and harmless in effect. --Gene_poole 02:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
It obviously is not harmless as it is having a negative effect on at least one other Wikipedian. You have an extensive history of disputes with other editors extending back more than three years and if you insist on continuing to antagonize other editors in this way I do not see why you should be allowed to continue editing. Newyorkbrad 03:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Brad. --Captain Wikify Argh! 03:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome. At this point I hope you can disengage from Gene. Please return from your wikibreak when you are ready and concentrate on other matters. Newyorkbrad 03:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I will. Thanks again. (If anyone needs me, please use the "email this user" function; I likely won't see my talk page for a while) --Captain Wikify Argh! 03:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

For those interested, there is now a related discussion on my talkpage here. Newyorkbrad 03:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Newyorkbrad's assertion that this compilation of quotes, provided with no context in order to belittle other editors, would be considered an attack page if it were on WP. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Gene Poole has now restored a link from his userpage to his external page, despite my request in an edit summary deleting it that it was not to be restored, and extensive colloquy on my talk in which I have urged him to discontinue this sort of behavior, which he has admitted is for the purpose of ridiculing another user. My first instinct is to tell him that he will be blocked indefinitely (i.e., until he desists from both on- and off-wiki harassment) if he keeps this up, but perhaps I am getting too worked up over the matter, so I would appreciate other views. Newyorkbrad 05:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Update: possibly resolved now; see my talk. Newyorkbrad 05:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The material you asserted was "offensive" and demanded that I remove from my personal website has been removed, so what's the problem? --Gene_poole 05:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Limericks about Wikipedia policy[edit]

Since I'm no good at writing poetry, I'll just point out that I've created Wikipedia:Limericks about Wikipedia policy as a logical extension of WP:HAIKU, and that Template:Poem now needs a "limerick" setting. Would anybody care to assist in said project? Thanks, Luc "Somethingorother" French 05:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you just contribute to Wikipedia:Haiku about Wikipedia policy? It doesn't make since to go creating a second page for limericks. Anyways, I think are more productive things you could be doing with your time.. — Moe ε 05:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I have contributed to WP:HAIKU; however, I noticed that the category WP:HAIKU was in, Category:Wikipedia poems, was nominated for deletion as a one member category. I decided to create a page of Limericks, for the sake of adding in a second, logical entry to the category. Does that make any sense? Thanks, Luc "Somethingorother" French 05:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess that makes sense to try and save the category, but it makes more sense to merge the two and rename it Wikipedia:Poems or something like that. — Moe ε 05:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
There once was a page of limerick / and it made an admin rather sick / so he thought he'd have fun / and say "this is G1" / and wondered if the deletion might stick. Ok ... I'm not a poet either ... but ... well ... I hear G1 calling this page. --BigDT 05:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Legal Drugs[edit]

Ok, I'm at a loss when it comes to this, erm, article. It doesn't seem to meet the criteria for speedy deletion or even deletion, yet it's clearly inappropriate as an apparent "user guide" (as it were) to drugs of possible legality. The article is fairly screaming to be tagged, but with what? The information on the individual drugs mentioned could be merged into their individual articles, or new ones created.... Suggestions? Exploding Boy 05:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

You can start by removing anything that is not referenced, which is pretty much any part of the article you take issue with. (H) 05:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I moved it to Legal drugs and drugs is generally not capitalized... hbdragon88 05:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice[edit]

There are multiple IPs vandalizing article Condoleezza Rice with racial slurs. The page should be semi-protected. Help, please. Mikebar 17:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:RFPP Paul Cyr 16:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

68.192.56.88[edit]

So I was RCPing and come across this IP. He had blanked his own talk page, which contained several "you have been blocked" templates. I reverted it and put this message at the bottom: User_talk:68.192.56.88#Where we assholes come from. He has now decided to insult me on my user talk page User_talk:W1k13rh3nry#Blanking, and claims that I have never "set foot outside of (my) mother's basement" and when I demanded that he apologize, he said that he "didn't imply a thing" and that I took it on myself "to draw (my) own twisted inferences". I request that this use be blocked again for a longer period of time- and before you decide to let him off with a warning, I have vandalism diffs: diff diff diff diff (which was actually found before I got there) and more but this guy makes me sick so I'll stop. W1k13rh3nry 13:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Blanking a talk page isn't disallowed via policy (WP:USER#Removal of warnings). That said, I've warned the user about not being civil, though I suggest you apologise as well because of it. x42bn6 Talk Mess 14:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
You are ignoring the four diffs I gave? W1k13rh3nry 18:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The vandalism edits are a different matter. If he has recent vandalism edits that need enforcement from WP:AIV yet he keeps removing them, then the Administrators will check anyway. x42bn6 Talk Mess 18:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Bossaball[edit]

Bossaball is currently up for AFD but is a a huge copyright violation of [46] Can i Be Bold and Speedy tag the article or is that bad faith? ExtraDry 23:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I would say that's bad faith. You could have just asked the writer of the article (me) to re-edit it, on the talk-page of the article. Which is what I did after reading this notice : I rephrased / rewrote everything one could consider a violation of copyright.

It is not at all bad faith, it should have been speedied and a {{nothanks}} tag placed on the editor's page. Corvus cornix 07:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deleted and AfD closed, it's a copvio. Ryan Postlethwaite 07:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
AfDs are speedy closed all the time. That's the whole point of CSD - to avoid the five-day AfD process for articles that clearly aren't allowable. So yes, ExtraDry, you could have tagged the article. Natalie 06:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Use of BLP justification getting out of hand[edit]

For the first time, I've recently become the target of the BLP book. User:Ubernostrum has a problem with Danah boyd being located at Danah Boyd against the wishes of the subject, but consistent with media references, as well as good common sense, as noted here, here, and here, and another administrator has now overturned my actions and the consensus of many editors for over a year's time at the site of those comments. I haven't been following the development of BLP policy, and I'm no expert, but I have seen several warning signs that all our other policies and guidelines, which, in my view, have held this place together, are being torn apart by one, all-overriding policy. I do understand the importance of the policy, but when do we say enough is enough? -- Renesis (talk) 07:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

When it's about to be listed on WP:LAME? One Night In Hackney303 07:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
WP:NAME#Controversial names - that pretty much sums up everything I would want to say on this. --soum talk 07:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think BLP applies here; uppercase last names are not seen as negative anywhere I know of. Kusma (talk) 07:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
It's not BLP issue here, but I would suggest all parties should try and follow WP:NAME#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise. Maybe we can use the "wrong title" template that we use on eBay and iPod. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree this isn't a WP:BLP issue, and I think your advisement above has the right idea. --Haemo 08:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, shouldn't the lower case title hack be enough? Riana 08:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The lower case hack would work; but I don't think it should be applied here. Many editors have agreed in the past, but now the BLP card is being thrown. -- Renesis (talk) 08:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree: the article title should follow the MOS, regardless of the personal preferences of the subject. Capitalization is a matter of editorial style, unlike spelling. So while the subject is free to spell her name however she likes, we are free to follow the ordinary English convention of capitalizing it. This is not in any way related to BLP. Other biographies which don't follow the MOS should be changed. — Carl (CBM · talk) 08:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
There was a June 21, 2007 post at BLPN on this very issue but the question is not really a BLPN issue and may be better answered here. I think Mixed or non-capitalization might be applicable and gives k.d. lang as an example. However, given how the matter seems to keep coming up, a better approach may be to set up a discussion on the article talk page that could be closed once a consensus is reached, e.g.
 == Header ==
 {{Discussion top}}
 The result was the name of the article should be '''xxx'''. -- ~~~~
 Hi, I would like to discuss...
 {{Discussion bottom}}
Apparently, there already is a discussion on the article talk page. If there is a consensus in that discussion, perhaps an admin would be so kind as to step forward, summarize the consensus, and close that discussion with archival templates. Then everyone can move forward. This issue really has gone on too long. -- Jreferee (Talk) 20:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII blocked[edit]

Resolved Resolvedunblocked

DragonflySixtyseven (talk contribs blocks protects deletions moves) blocked Cyrus XIII (talk · contribs) over this issue. Looking at the article history[47], DragonflySixtyseven was heavily involved in the dispute . As it spilled over to Catherine yronwode, DragonflySixtyseven appears to have considered this a WP:POINT violation and blocked Cyrus XIII. However, as DragonflySixtyseven was involved in the Boyd dispute, this seems to me a questionable block. He should have sought an uninvolved admin. Also, he blocked Cyrus XIII with "e-mail blocked". That is definitely inappropriate as there was no abuse of Special:Emailuser and an admin shouldn't prevent communication by default. Cyrus XIII has requested unblock on his talk page. DragonflySixtyseven hasn't edited in some while so I'm bringing this here for wider review. -- JLaTondre 12:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the e-mail block, that was an accident. Sorry. DS 13:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I have struck the "heavily" based upon your comment at User talk:Cyrus XIII. -- JLaTondre 13:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Looks like a pretty bad block to me, and poor admin behaviour before that too. I mean, come on, move-warring with a dictatorial "I am ruling that..." [48]? Seriously, who does DS think he is? Article move-protected for the moment (in the other version, incidentally), in case anybody should want to resume move-warring. And urge unblock of Cyrus. Fut.Perf. 15:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
It's not the first time I've barged into a dispute in which I had hitherto not been involved, and unilaterally made changes; however, this is the first time where it didn't work and people continued to be upset. Plus, I was a bit cranky at the time, and I felt like sounding majestic (seriously, "so mote it be"?). I would not have blocked Cyrus for his actions re the boyd article (and the rapid repeated moves were the result of me screwing up the move process; for several minutes I was panicked that I'd lost the entire edit history), and I did not. When I offered him several examples of articles in which that particular policy did not apply (one of which I freely admit was flawed), he started changing the examples to conform to that policy. This struck me as being a flagrant violation of WP:POINT; admittedly, he only changed one of the examples, but is that because he would have stopped anyway, or because I blocked him? We have {{lowercase}} and {{wrongtitle}} for a reason. DS 16:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, just three points: barging into a dispute and trying out just imposing a solution may sometimes be all nice and rouge and good, but once you find yourself up against determined opposition, it's probably wise not to push it through by edit-warring. Second, your point about your solution having appeared "blatantly obvious to someone uninvolved", as you said on my page, it can't really be that obvious, because even right here on this page there were outside opinions clearly in the other direction. And as to Cyrus' "point violation", I'm not so sure either: he's convinced that a certain rule is or should be commonly applied and mandatory; he's pointed to a few pages that appear to be exceptions, so he decides those are erroneous and should be fixed? Sounds like a perfectly good-faith editorial thing to do, to me. Fut.Perf. 16:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd really think we should unblock the guy at this point, he's been blocked for over 15 hours now anyway and has had his unblock request on for like 6 hours or thereabouts. Any big objections? Fut.Perf. 17:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing a little hazy, I think I'll do the unblock now. I'd recommend that future behaviour will be the basis for any further action on this matter. Agathoclea 18:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I was about to endorse an unblock. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

TfD closure[edit]

Can some gracious admins help me with the deletions of the templates for this discussion? Sr13 23:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, why not. I'll take Redskins through Steelers :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 23:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
These done, orphaned, and redirects to them deleted per CSD R1. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW, anyone care to orphan them? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 23:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

image deletion question[edit]

Resolved ResolvedImage deleted

I think Image:Nifong-pwned.jpg falls under G10 as an attack, but it's an image, not a page. Does that qualify for G10 or any criteria of CSD? Gotyear 00:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Attack page includes images as well as articles (and other various things). G10 it is. x42bn6 Talk Mess 00:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Gone, despite my inaccurate summary :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

All the 'G' criteria apply to all pages, be they articles, images, templates, whatever. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, comments, and resolution. :) Gotyear 05:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

AfD Lost Lake (Canada)[edit]

Can I have an Admin check out Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost Lake (Canada). There's some confusion involving a malformed AfD tag (which I had fixed at the start of it,) combined with a page move and a creation of a redirect and a disambiguation page, that has led into few (if any) editors being sure what that particular AfD is about. Thanks! LaughingVulcan 03:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You just need to change the headers to refer to the correct article. I'll do it for you. --Haemo 04:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I'm not sure; that's the painless way, but you'll lost the AfD log for the Abbotsford article. It's up to an admin to do the close. --Haemo 04:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
For everyone's convenience I have now moved my comment that explains this around the top of the AfD. Tim Q. Wells 04:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

When can AfDs be closed against consensus?[edit]

Our deletion policy says that, without a "rough consensus for deletion", an article is kept by default. However, it also emphasizes that AfD is not a head count, and if all the keep votes are meatpuppets, or the bulk of the article is a copyright violation, for instance, the article can be deleted anyway. Under what other circumstances can the AfD legitimately be closed as delete, if a majority of competent contributors voted to keep? — Omegatron 19:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I believe the guideline you are looking for is located at Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Rough_consensus. To quote "Note also that the three key policies, which warrant that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, and be written from a neutral point of view are held to be non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus..."
  • The closing administrator or editor must determine whether or not this is the case. Also of note, exceptions are mode if the subject article meets WP:CSD it may be deleted speedily even if listed at XFD for discussion, or so this has been the case historically. I hope this helps. regards, Navou 19:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP violations, for one. If the closing admin has a very compelling reason to close it against consensus, I would think that would fall under a legitimate use of WP:IAR. Will (talk) 19:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Note that the "Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators" document is neither guideline nor policy, but is process, and not all statements on it are described in Wikipedia:Deletion policy. --Iamunknown 20:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Well then the banner at the top of that page ought to be reworded to reflect just that. Navou 23:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course I'm asking because of a case I am involved in. A majority of roughly 19 (including 7 admins) voted to keep vs 15 (including 4 admins) to delete, as I count them. Yet the article was deleted. Even if the numbers were reversed, that wouldn't be a rough consensus for deletion, so the article should be kept by default, as I see it.

Of course our three key policies override everything, but whether the article meets those policies is decided in the discussion itself, not by the closing admin. If the topic of reliable sources is brought up in the deletion discussion, and a majority of competent editors agree that the article has reliable sources, one admin's personal opinion to the contrary can't override that, can it?

How compelling of a reason do you need to close against consensus in a case like this? Closing as delete just because you personally agree with others who voted delete doesn't cut it. If that were the way things were run, the first admin to see an AfD would just ignore the discussion and close it according to their own personal viewpoint instead of voting. — Omegatron 21:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Depends on the situation. AfD is a discussion, not a vote. If arguments on one side are weak (for example, ILIKEIT/IDONTLIKEIT) and many on the other are compelling and unanswered, the admin can and should choose to go with the strong, compelling, policy-based arguments in preference to head-counting. In other cases, the majority is indeed correct. Have you tried discussing the matter with the admin who closed the discussion? Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The arguments would have to be pretty damn compelling to override seven other admins' opinions, don't you think?
Yes, I (and several others) contacted the closing admin, but he went on vacation a day later without responding. The article was then put up for DRV, closed without any discussion, re-opened, re-closed, and re-opened, and is now full of the exact same content-based arguments that were made in the AfD, instead of addressing the deletion process itself.
I'm not usually one to go around yelling about administrative abuse and saying that the deletion process is broken, but... it seems as if the deletion process is broken. — Omegatron 23:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
It's on DRV, in any case, which is where you go to contest deletion decisions if talking it out with the deleting admin doesn't resolve the issue. I think a large part of the problem is that I consistently see you referring to "votes", "a majority voted to..." and such. While the misconception is common, AfD is not a vote. It was in fact moved to "Articles for deletion" from the old title, "Votes for deletion", to specifically emphasize this point. While the number of people who advocate a given position is one thing to consider, it is not the sole factor for consideration—else there wouldn't even be any need for people to justify their position at all, they could simply say "Keep" or "Delete". I don't have any opinion on the specific deletion here, but you'll want a better argument than "X ignored the vote count!". It also looks like multiple previous AfDs had decided not to have the article, and while such precedent isn't absolutely binding and unchangeable, the results of previous discussions are something a closing admin should be aware of and take into account. If you look at AfD as a majority vote, or even as a supermajority vote, it will indeed often appear broken to you, since it is neither. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Admins have no more franchise on deletion discussions than any other user. Whether 7 admins voted yea or nay is immaterial to the final outcome. Corvus cornix 15:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

  • This whole thread looks like forum-shopping, especially since Omeghatron (a significant contributoir to the article) undeleted it after it was deleted by AfD. Guy (Help!) 16:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)