Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive98

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Guideline proposal: Changing usernames guideline[edit]

Me, Andre and WJBscribe have created a set of guidelines for the changing usernames process, in an attempt to standardise our existing practices, as well as create a formal set of guidelines that reflects current pratice. Note that if the community decides to grant this guideline status, then there will be very little to no change in our existing practices at changing usernames, and usurpations. I am posting notices on several pages in an attempt to gain consensus on the talk page of the proposal to promote it to guideline. All input is welcome. And yes, I've posted this other places too, but I am posting here as it may be relevant to administrators, and to increase exposure. --Deskana (banana) 21:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Award pages[edit]

Can someone please clarify the policy on awards pages? I noticed this article: List of Queen Latifah's awards and nominations. There used to be similar articles for Michael Jackson and La Toya Jackson, although they were both removed by User:Metros to try and "teach me a lesson" (as a side note, I used every possible option to have something done about this, but it seems that all involved admins were on Metros' side, and he got away with it). Anyway, if awards pages are truly not permitted, List of Queen Latifah's awards and nominations should be deleted. If they -are- permitted, than the pages for Michael and La Toya Jackson should be reinstated, and User:Metros should have a serious talking-to. Rhythmnation2004 17:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you put "teach me a lesson" in quotes, I assume that you're saying Metros said that specifically. Could you provide a diff so we have context? Thanks! - CHAIRBOY () 17:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe you missed the point of this post. He never said that specifically, but that is what he did theoretically, hence the quotes. Anyhow, I'm still looking for an answer on WP's policy toward award pages. Rhythmnation2004 13:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we usually only add wins (as notable award wins, not nominations, are part of WP:N for people, though obviously not the only criterion), and they go in a subsection of the main bio article. MSJapan 16:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, in that case, wouldn't List of Queen Latifah's awards and nominations be a candidate for deletion? Rhythmnation2004 01:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I think it would be reasonable to list Latifah's page on WP:AFD to find out what the community thinks about this. >Radiant< 09:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking for a tool[edit]

I'd like to check a range of IP addresses to see whether they've edited Wikipedia. It's a fairly narrow range but a bit large to run manually. DurovaCharge! 17:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

You should be able to use a wildcard as described here, but I can't get it to work.... --After Midnight 0001 17:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
No you shouldn't, see r21379. I believe VoA has a script for this. Prodego talk 17:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I remembered that they communicated that we could do it. I didn't remember that it got removed (or maybe it wasn't communicated). Oh well, that explains why I can't get it to work ;) --After Midnight 0001 18:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, okay is there any working tool for this? DurovaCharge! 22:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I could whip up a pywikipedia script if you want, all I need to know is what you want in the output. 05:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The only "working tools" I know who will do this are developers :) -- it's a SQL query. If I'm wrong and there is a way, please let me know too since I need this all the time... Antandrus (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
VandalProof can check a /24 pretty easily. I haven't tried any other ranges. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll echo that request. In a few cases, I've wanted to know what the contributions from an entire /14 (yes, that's a slash-fourteen looked like to get an idea of what the collateral damage associated with blocking (short- or long-term) a particular ISP would be. If I had SQL access to the database, I could do it that way–but I don't, and I can't. I'm certainly not going to hammer the server with a quarter million separate contributions requests (most of which would probably turn up empty anyway). Maybe this should be over at WP:VPT? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I can think of an easy way to do this! Download GNU wget, set the base-url to, put the list of IP addresses to check into a file. Give the file to wget as a list of files to download. Once it has downloaded them all, go to the folder in which you put them, and do "sort by size", all the ones with no contributions should have the same file size, and be the smallest files.

Also you can write a quick bot if you prefer and make it search the files for the following phrase : "No changes were found matching these criteria." Make it write a list of all the files in which it was not found: that is the list of users (or IPs, because you could put user names in the list too) who edited wikipedia. I was thinking just a quick and ugly bot like :

SYSTEM(dir /b /on > list.txt);
ifstream list("list.txt");
char IP[50];
list.getline (IP,50);
ifstream contribs(IP)
and then search the stream, using a premade library or using a getline loop.
then if "No changes were found matching these criteria.", is not found output IP[] to a buffer.

Jackaranga 17:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Note if you were to use this method you wouldn't see the deleted contribs I'm guessing because you wouldn't be logged in (as admin), you may be able to pass the login cookie to wget though, I'm not sure what would happen. Jackaranga 17:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Zionism?[edit]

I was wondering if admins can clarify if this is a violation of policy. I recently noticed this message in a WikiProject banner at the top of Talk:Allegations of Chinese apartheid.

This article was written under the auspices of Wikiproject Zionism, an effort sponsored by the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry to ensure a favourable portrayal of the State of Israel on Wikipedia. [1] If you would like to participate, please contact Hasbara Fellowships to receive a list of open tasks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a concerted government-sponsored effort to especially give a "favourable portrayal" to any country a gross violation of the neutrality policy? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It was pretty obviously a very poor taste joke. I've removed it as vandalism. Still laughing, but I guess it wasn't really funny. Thanks for pointing it out! I'm not an admin; but hey. Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 04:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
To admins - here's the version of the Talk page before the message was removed[2]. To Duae_Quartunciae - are you so sure it was a joke/vandalism? The message linked to this article[3]. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
It was inserted by an IP here. No other edits, obviously someone trying to be funny. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There was discussion on WP:AN/I about this solicitation (which is real, from Hasbara) a few days ago. Obviously, someone who thinks that these AfD's are insufficiently contentious and rancorous thought it would be humorous to reference it in the AfD. Removing it was the right call. MastCell Talk 05:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Meh. The faux "Wikiproject Zionism" banner was intended as a sarcastic commentary on the brouhaha around the "Allegations of Apartheid" series, not as graffiti, and I apologize for the disruption caused. The shitfight has driven any reasonable voices that might have offered a solution away and will convince any onlooker that Wikipedia doesn't live up to its aspiration to be a serious encyclopedia. Let's look at it like this: at least one editor thought that the wikiproject may really have been genuine and that there really is an organized campaign underway to "improve" Israel-related articles. 16:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

More "communication" from image enforcers[edit]

As a prelude to the flags of several countries being deleted, you may encounter the following: image warning Greetings, You are being contacted by BetacommandBot and by Zscout370. The reason for this message is that you have have uploaded Image:Flag of ...x under the following license Recently, a decision [link to "decision" not provided"] was made about images and anything not meeting will be considered "unfree" for Wikimedia's purposes. The terms of the website do not allow their images to be used now under our new guidelines. You are being given a chance to relicense the image for about two weeks. If you fail to relicense the image, there is a good chance the image will be deleted from Wikipedia.

Albeit for me to speculate that the images were fine for our purposes, but the ever-so uncommunicative, for-profit forces decided that they'd rather have missing flags and coat of arms in country articles because, in theory, some corporation would not be able to profit from said images. I did say albeit! A little communication goes a long way. Also, sound bot planning also goes along way, esp. when it comes to redundant multiple sections (ie having a bot coded so it limits multiple image notices to one section). El_C 23:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Be aware that certainly in the UK, and I would think in the U.S. also, there is enough individual variation in an artist's rendering of a heraldic blazon for that rendering to attract copyright on its own account, in addition to the copyright in the underlying design.
From what can see of, their license agreement with the user is very limiting, and specifically excludes further sub-licensing. So these images cannot be considered free. But since, from the original heraldic specification, they should be eminently re-drawable to avoid, this looks to me like a clear case of WP:NFCC #1 (Replaceable non-free images).
Frankly I'm surprised that BCbot isn't tagging them all for deletion straight off. But IMO you would be wise to consider use of these images to be running on borrowed time, and to consider making plans to replace them. Jheald 00:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

See commons:Commons:Deletion requests/ Chick Bowen 00:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. It seems sees its business as selling vector versions of its images, and is happy for the promotional raster preview version it supplies to be used without restriction, so long as it is identified as the creator. This includes commercial use. It is not 100% explicitly clear that it includes modification -- eg tracing to produce competing vector SVG art. It seems the balance of opinion on Commons is that that is permitted too. So I am now slightly at a loss to understand Zscout's assertion that "The terms of the website do not allow their images to be used now under our new guidelines". But perhaps he can clarify.
What is recognised as a potential problem for Commons is any copyright remaining in the underlying heraldic specification. In very many cases this will now be PD. Where it is not, WP:NFCC #1 would not apply (we wouldn't be able to redraw our way around it), so we would then need to consider whether fair use was appropriate.
However, that no longer seems to square with what Zscout is saying, so this may need a further looking at. Jheald 08:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I clarified for Jheald on my talk page; anyways, many of the images tagged now are Commonwealth arms and I am not sure what is the copyright status of those. While I said two weeks in the template message, I honestly believe that it might take longer than that. Plus, there is always deletion review if I managed to make a boo-boo on one. However, if there is one thing I wish to say, El C, I wish you spoke to me first about the situation before you came here. I could have clarified it for you and would have helped you through the process. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I've followed this up on Zscout's talk page. In particular, I don't think he's entirely correctly interpreted the discussions on Commons. Jheald 10:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Even after playing email tag with the site owners, people still agree that they will review each image on the Commons and will determine what will be kept. The main goal of the whole notification thingie is that this tags purpose as a license is depreciated. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Read the Commons discussion more closely. The problem is not with Vector Images' copyright, nor their release. The problem is whether, for some of the images, there may be copyright in the underlying heraldic design. That is what the Commons images are to be reviewed for. Jheald 17:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The deletion page for the template is a mess anyways; people are just voting to keep pictures and not about the template. The Commons is already killing new uploads with the template, they want to depreciate the use of the template as a license. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. Y'Know, BetaCommandbot in general really annoys me for some reason... David Fuchs (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I expect that Betacommand's official spokesperson, Durin, will soon be by to explain to us why the notice didn't include a link to the "decision," which dosen't even appear to have been concluded yet (!). Needless to say, I await it with an especial trepidation. ;) El_C 01:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What, no spokesbot? Mackensen (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
:D El_C 01:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok why am I getting drug into this? Zscout370 asked me to notify all the users who uploaded images with that template. The task and text was generated by Zscout370, not me. Please address all issues to Zscout370. 01:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
You are ultimately accountable for the actions carried out by your bot, as the bot owner, even if they were requested by someone else. That's why. It's ok to direct questions to ZScout, but should something go wrong, you can't just claim no responsibility. pschemp | talk 01:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that I am responsible for the bot, But the issue is not with the bot, but the message and the fact of the message. As the saying goes dont shoot the messenger for the fact that you hear bad news. Shoot the creator of the news. 01:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Providing "the news" isn't suppressed in the message! El_C 01:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, leave Betacommand out of this. As I noted at the bottom of the notice, which was composed by me, I said that any questions or comments should be directed towards me. It seems you ignored the last part of it. I also signed the message that BC issued, because he had a notification bot that worked well. I even got messages from this round of notification. Please, come on, stop beating up on Betacommand on this issue. Remmeber, my talk page is open, let's go there. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Care to comment, here, about the "recently, a decision was made" bit? I do find that mode of communication problematic and I wish to see it addressed in a venue that's wider than your talk page, especially seeing how the discussion is already somewhat under way. Thanks. El_C 01:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sure. I mainly wished yall came to see me first before the bot was getting attacked again. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Whenever you're ready... El_C 03:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I was born ready. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
If you don't want to comment that's your prerogative, just be straight-forward about it. El_C 03:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought I made it clear in the message that I wrote that was sent to the talk pages. Anyways, many of the images from the website were accepted in Wikipedia, especially on the Commons. Some people, like myself, decided to copy the template license over from the Commons to here because some just don't have Commons accounts (in my case, en.wp is my test ground for images). There has been email discussions in the past between Russian admins and the site owners, asking to clarify the license. Before the March 2007 decision by the Foundation, the only thing the site asked for was a reference to the website and that was it. This was the basis for many of the CIS based images we got. But after the Foundation set down their new image policy, the Russian admins decided to play email tag again over the template. While they gave the same statement as last time, our asking of the image license clarification went on deaf ears. We also had Belarusian administrators email the company to no avail. Then, it was decided in May 2007 that all new images uploaded with the license are going to be speedy deleted. Later on, on the talk page, they decided to depreciate the template and put it up for deletion. Right now, many users are not understanding the deletion debate. People want the template gone, but the images kept. Here, I was looking for a review of the images and it would have been best to notify all who uploaded images from the site and see what happens. You got hit by it once, I was hit by it three times and others were told about it. I have begun to review some of the images now, but many of the ones that are left are Commonwealth coat of arms. I am not sure how long the review will take, but I hope it doesn't take very long. If you think the image makes fair use, write up a claim. If you can find a free image, then use it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I entirely follow that, but thanks anyway for the detail. Again, my problem was that you write "recently, a decision was made" but fail to link to this decision. Do you not see anything wrong with that? El_C 03:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that was an oversight on my part. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Community ban on Bus stop[edit]

Tyrenius criticized my action today, so raising this for broader discussion. Quick summary: two separate threads at WP:CSN concluded with consensus support for a full siteban on Bus stop. I implemented the first one, then tried a conditional unblock if the editor accepted formal mentorship and agreed to avoid two articles. Fred Bauder adopted Bus stop, but problems continued at related pages until I opened a second thread for a full community topic ban (with Fred's approval) on Judaism-related articles. During that discussion Bus stop's behavior degenerated so badly that I reimposed the original community siteban and edit protected the user's talk space. Feedback at that thread after I implemented it was overwhelming in support.

Then Dweller attempted to broker a second compromise. I went along with it, reduced the indef block to 3 months, but IMO Bus stop's next posts just weren't up to par. Not extreme enough to normally merit the banhammer, but here's someone who's already been sitebanned twice and looked more interested in settling scores than moving forward. IMO the block reduction had been a courtesy. I don't think I should need a third consensus to reset to indef again.

Bus stop is fully informed of his/her right to bring any grievance to ArbCom through e-mail. Have I overstepped? I don't think so, but I'm open to comment. DurovaCharge! 22:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

DurovaCharge! 22:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I have taken a cursory glance. If the editor proves and promises through the contributions that they will spiral back down, then the disruptions to the project must stop. Especially if that is the communities consensus. In my opinion, I do not think you have overstepped. Navou banter 22:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I can't understand why people are making such efforts to make Bus stop their darling pet project. He has been indef banned twice already and nothing has changed. I would drop it like a hot brick and move on. Its not worth anyone's valuable time and energy. Drumpler 23:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

No comment on previous sitebans, but since then (in fact only one day ago) Bus stop was unblocked under the mentorship of Dweller. We know what has happened in the past, but Bus stop has apologised to Durova. It is not appropriate to wield old diffs as above. The idea is to attempt to move forward from this point. Bus stop has not repeated remarks of the kind he made previously and an instant re-ban is premature. At the very least, Dweller should have been involved in this decision. Durova has been criticised by Bus stop and immediately re-bans. Better to have left anything like that to a non-involved party to avoid even the appearance of a personal motive. Tyrenius 23:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Correction: Bus stop was not unblocked one day ago. I reduced a block from indef to three months. Then I set it back to indef. DurovaCharge! 15:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with both Drumpler and Tyrenius. Like Drumpler, I don't understand why anyone would bother with this, and IMO it is not worth the trouble.
On the other hand, my own understanding of what other people might do is irrelevant. Some people enjoy hopeless causes; and who knows... maybe it will turn out not to be a hopeless cause. Given that other people might like to be more helpful for Bus Stop than I think worth bothering about; the question is whether Durova was premature in preventing them. I agree with Tyrenius that Durova was premature; and as an involved party she is better to back off entirely and let Dweller deal with it under the mentor process. If she is unhappy with any recent activity — and the recent activity precipitating this latest ban seems pretty mild overall — then she should contact the mentor and perhaps the mentor can give some useful advice to Bus Stop about how to let it go. Good luck to them in that; but they should be permitted to try out this mentoring process. I'm not 100% sure I'm working on full information, but that's how it looks to me at present. Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 00:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Bus Stop made a half-hearted apology to Durova ('"OK I apologize"--if that will get be unbanned' is what it sounded like) only after repeated prodding by Dweller that's it's a mandatory condition to get him unblocked. Furthermore, to this date he has not shown a scintilla of contrition for his actions. After every block/banning, he seems to be fancying himself to be a victim (of some Christian conspiracy, evidently) and stayed combative and insulted/accused others of wrongdoings against him. In the interim administrators, for whatever reason, have been taking turns making him a pet project, and try to get him unbanned/into mentorship--at the expense of the community. I guess quite a few admins believe they can play psychiatrist and change an individual's personality and morph him into a non-disruptive editor and create some sort of a feel-good-story--however how is that fair to other editors who already bore the brunt of his disruption, and will continue to be subjected to his disruption as he go right back to his old ways after every unblock? Tendancer 00:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

How many chances do you get? From reading the discussion on Bus stop's talk page, it appears that he's still under the impression that everyone's out to get him in some way or another. Until he realizes that it's his disruptive behavior, not a vast conspiracy, that led to this situation, he's not going to change it. I see nothing to indicate he's come to that realization. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Tendancer, that's a very poor characterisation of Bus stop's apology, which in full reads:
OK, I apologize to Durova for the comment that I made last, containing the profanity. I retract it, if that is possible. And I apologize for using such base terminology. Thanks for the chance, Dweller.
I fail to see how that doesn't show a "scintilla of contrition". Your post is mainly irrelevant to the current situation and quite insulting to other users and admins. I was able to work constructively with Bus stop without major problems in a contentious editing environment on Michael Richards, and editors on art articles (which is his other interest) have not had these problems, so there is no need for any morphing or psychiatric practice there. One wonders exactly why it has become so difficult elsewhere. Certainly an editor who continues to post on Bus stop's talk page after he's been banned, because "it's at least a bit amusing", is not without blame for exacerbating matters.[4] My participation to date has been fairly minor: I was not involved with unbanning or mentoring Bus stop. I am not saying he should have been unbanned, but the fact is that he was and it was agreed that Dweller was to mentor him. That then needs to be allowed to run its course. Tyrenius 01:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Tyrenius, first I was referring to his complete lack of attrition for his disruptive editing. Now even assuming we take into account the "apology" for his vile insult of Durova--first if Bus Stop is a reasonable person he should've made the apology without any prodding after making such a statement. Then even after Dweller had to ask him to apologize, his immediate response was to bargain that "[he] will apologize to Durova in exchange for an apology from Durova." After Dweller stayed firm that the apology is "not negotiable", we get a half-hearted apology primarily addressed to Dweller and referring to Durova in 3rd person just to get himself unblocked. The moment Durova accepts it, the response is "Apparently Durova fails to accept responsibility for even one iota of her wrongdoing." Combine that with the complete lack of admission he has done anything disruptive, and the continuous accusation of other users of supposed wrongdoing; I do not see how any fair minded person can deem him to have shown contrition.
While you and some visual arts editors find him easy to work with (probably because visual arts is far less of a hot topic for this editor, and the inherent subjectivity renders his POV tendencies less problematic), I think it's fair to say it's beyond clear dozens of others editors, admins and non-admins alike, find Bus Stop extremely disruptive. I stand by my statement: I think your and Dweller's apparent attempts to get Bus Stop unblocked are, while certainly well-intentioned, unreasonably unfair to the community. This is not just between Bus Stop and Durova, as Durova banned him based on community consensus--and the community, with some editors who had months and months of experience having to deal with his disruption, has already twice now opined he should be banned after being subjected to his disruption and incivility, and now we're spending (wasting?) time on a third time because admins propose (again) to put him through mentorship (again) as a pet project. Maybe to some admins it's just "giving someone a second third fourth chance", to the editors who have been/will be on the receiving end of his disruption and actually deal with the brunt of the consequences, it's not quite such a noble and magnanimous venture. Tendancer 02:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Am I being put to blame for exacerbating the problem? I'm sorry, but when you try to explain to an editor why he's in his predicament, and why other individuals have tended to disagree with him, and he simply continues to believe that his opinion is the only acceptable one, it is painfully amusing, and unfortunate.
The simple problem is that Bus stop doesn't listen to anyone else's argument, and he doesn't understand the concept of consensus. He'd make accusations that we'd simply voted to get him banned from the original discussion because his argument was "too cogent". This, if anything, is at least a show of narcissism (or simple naivete) which leads me to question if the user has a Jekyll-Hyde editing pattern when exposed to Judaism-related topics. After all, he does seem to make positive contributions to art topics. Take a look at his Judaism-related edits, and you'll begin to notice that he pushes his POV as authoritative even when everyone else is opposed to his changes.--C.Logan 02:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I do believe that the problematic point was after Bus stop apologized- and then requested an apology from Durova. See, Durova invited him to join the discussion on WP:CSN, and later banned him from that discussion, as it appears, for making several distasteful comments which compared the discussion to the Holocaust (and this is a habit of his; both user Drumpler and I had been involved in a long discussion with this user, and he often attempted to malign our arguments by comparing the situation to medieval events and calling our actions "proselytization"- unique, because Drumpler and many other users involved have no religion, AFAIK).
The problem lies in the fact that Bus stop wants Durova to apologize to him for banning him from the discussion, as he claims he could not defend his case because of that. Sorry to say, but considering the comments he was making, Durova owes little apology to Bus stop for the ban. The fact that he's asking for an apology in this instance hints at the fact that Bus stop still doesn't realize that what he's doing is disruptive.
Concerning the prematurity of the re-ban... yes, I believe it was a little premature. If anything, an explanation of the reasons for the ban should have at least been given to Bus stop beforehand. He may just drop his attitude to get out of trouble, but if this second mentorship works, we could have a very useful editor involved in art-related topics. Better that than a total ban. However, I'm still unsure about allowing the editor to edit Judaism-related topics- seems like it's simply too hot-button for this user to handle without pressing his POV.--C.Logan 01:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Dweller's terms were a three month block, followed by a (minimum) 3 month ban on Judaism-related articles for Bus stop, so that is not an immediate concern. We don't need penitence; he doesn't need to realize he's done wrong - he just needs to act differently, whatever his motivation to do so. Asking for an apology and sounding off a bit doesn't merit a re-ban. It might merit an explanation of the type you have provided above. We can't expect someone to change totally overnight, but we can expect a move in the right direction, and certainly the new remarks are a distinct improvement on the earlier ones you have referred to. Such extremity has not been manifested in other subject areas, as I have said above, or I would be less sympathetic to his cause. Tyrenius 02:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
He apologized, which is great, but it's another story if he's going to be a wrench in the gears about things unless Durova apologizes to him for banning him from a discussion in which he was being rather disruptive (and if someone isn't able to see how he was being disruptive, they have little experience with this user's habits). We shouldn't expect a brand new user within the course of a night, but unless he starts over by (first and foremost) swallowing his pride, it may just end up being another course where we cater to a user who still believes his POV is the law about things. Bus stop is wrong- he doesn't deserve an apology for being blocked for disruptive behavior. Again, though, I agree that Durova's ban this time around was a bit of jumping the gun.--C.Logan 02:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Frankly I wish people would have given Dweller and Bus stop a little more time and space to hash things out. All of a sudden, people jump in, things get crazy, he overreacts somewhat badly, and then Durova shuts it down. I hope something via e-mail between Durova to whom I apologize for Bus stop's rude language as I didn't like seeing that, and Dweller and Bus stop can diffuse this tenderbox. Tyrenius and I have worked with Bus stop and he is capable of doing good work. Although I think he has to let go of the past, things need to settle down, obviously feelings are still raw. Modernist 02:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd trust Dweller (talk · contribs) to handle this; his conditions seemed fair enough. I agree though that ideally something would be worked out by Dweller, Durova, Bus stop, and perhaps Tyrenius after a cool down period and preferably away from situations that will just continue to heat up the rhetoric.--Isotope23 talk 04:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Bus stop at the otogar[edit]

Hey, did anyone check if this[5] was really Bus stop, or some jokester trying to smear his good name? Those "pedophile" comments seem a little goofier than the Bus stop I know and love, but if that was really him, you might want to take that into consideration.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 02:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd forgotten about that, hmm. Who the hell would impersonate Bus stop for that specific purpose? When I'd seen his last comment before bannage, and then saw "his" comments as Bus stop at the otogar, I thought he'd finally gone off the deep end. Someone should definitely check that out.--C.Logan 02:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
04:56, 1 August 2007 is the start line for a new start, and that is a prior edit, however it came about. Leave it. Tyrenius 03:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
That's generous of you, I guess.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 03:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sure: any second/third/fourth/whatever-it-is-by-now chance is generous. But having decided to go ahead with another try — and there does seem to have been a general consensus on that from all concerned — it's just common sense to draw a line in the sand and leave prior history out of it as already having been considered. The question is really only whether the most recent contributions since 04:56, 1 August 2007 are grounds to re-ban. I don't have any great hopes for the new process, but I also don't think the subsequent contributions are grounds for the attempt at rehabilitation to be unilaterally revoked by someone so deeply involved in the disputes. (No offense intended Durova; I just think you are better to leave it to others not so involved.)
There are only two contributions to consider. They are 15:26, 1 Aug and 15:48, 1 Aug. Both contributions indicate that the mentor has an uphill task in explaining the principle of No angry mastodons. Neither was worth immediately revoking the attempt to help, however futile you think it might be. Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 03:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone could checkuser this if they really wanted to, but I doubt Bus stop at the otogar (talk · contribs) is the same individual as Bus stop (talk · contribs). Bus stop was previously blocked for a fair amount of time and never sockpuppeted. Plus, Bus stop at the otogar (talk · contribs) seemed to be going well out of their way to make sure everyone "knew" it was "Bus stop".--Isotope23 talk 04:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think Durova jumped the gun too much. Bus stop immediately came firing back again with the same old accusations. I would consider maybe giving him more cooling time before deciding to bring him back. Maybe a few months. Drumpler 06:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The question would seem to be, at least to me, whether the editor in question has learned that his or her own actions which precipitated all of this were incorrect and unallowable. The appearance of these most recent comments would indicate that no such lesson has been learned, and that, on that basis, it is extremely unlikely, at best, that the editor's behavior ever will improve. Basically, if s/he's still insisting his/her own violations of policy are and were justified, it's reasonable to assume such violations will continue. The only way I can see in which there would be any hope of redemption of this editor would be to get it through to him or her that his/her actions were clearly well outside acceptable guidelines. Whether such is possible is, to me, an open question. I can't at this point fault Durova for the follow-up block, although I wouldn't object to seeing it rescinded if the editor in question ever acknowledged that his/her violations of etiquette, guidelines, and policies were extremely problematic, and indicated they would try to adhere to good conduct standards in the future. Right now, though, it don't look real likely. And I can see how someone with pronounced self-aggrandinzing tendencies, as this editor has displayed, would compare their being banned/blocked to Turkish repression a la Midnight Express. I wouldn't mind seeing a checkuser on that account. If it was Bus stop, s/he should be made to understand at least that such conduct is also explicitly unacceptable. John Carter 15:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Dweller's response[edit]

Sheesh. Look what happens when you're offline for a few hours. I guess I should apologise to those who feel that my intervention to give Bus stop another chance has caused disruption to the Project; although I'm not entirely sure that's a fair characterisation, I'm happy to apologise for inadvertently being the cause of upset to other editors in good standing.

At this point, my main concern is with Durova. I'm not doing anything to trample a well-respected contributor in favour of my efforts to rehabilitate someone with a block history that doesn't augur well for the future.

This may be arrogant, but can I please request that everyone stops discussing this, as any further disruption is now entirely being caused by admins discussing the disruption! I will discuss this with Durova and with Bus stop too. When I have a clear picture, I'll post a new thread here or at CS, whichever seems more appropriate at the time. --Dweller 12:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

NB This may take some time. Durova's actively editing at a time when I'm <ahem> supposed to be sleeping, so dialogue will necessarily be rather clunky. --Dweller 13:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Dweller and I have exchanged a couple of e-mails about this. First I want to clarify that I didn't restore Bus stop's editing privileges the other day: I shortened the ban to three months, then restored it to indefinite. I have a standard offer to community banned editors that I'll support their return after half a year if they don't violate WP:SOCK, promise to abide by site policies when they come back, and don't go around bashing Wikipedia at other websites. At Dweller's request I cut that time frame in half, and as a gesture of goodwill I put it that into the block log, which is a notation I almost never make.
Upon reflection I decided I'd made a mistake by resetting that expiration time formally. Return from an indefinite ban is something that needs to be earned. Bus stop's demand of an apology is right in only one respect: I owe an apology to the rules-abiding editors who couldn't improve a page I edit protected after he gamed an unblock offer I had extended. I owe an apology to the people who attended second ban discussion I opened, and now for my actions that necessitated this AN thread. Why did I bend over this far for an editor who acted like he was doing Fred Bauder a favor by accepting an unsolicited offer of mentorship? I should have seen where this was headed and cut the losses sooner. I hoped that a few positive contributions to visual arts were enough to build on, but obviously they weren't. And it should have been obvious sooner. I apologize for wasting the community's time. If anyone wants to unblock his user space or restore his editing privileges again, that's up to them, but until a few months pass I think a return should be out of the question. DurovaCharge! 15:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I personally don't think that any apologies are owed to the community by Durova for giving this editor another chance. Hope springs eternal, and all that. Apologies from Bus stop are another matter entirely. John Carter 15:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Y'know, John, (and thanks for the affirmation) I do. It's no secret that I don't like the current policy language on community bans. I argued against it, now I work within it, but it still rubs me the wrong way. Adminship is supposed to be no big deal. I just don't like how my opinion about a ban or an unban carries more weight than that of any other editor in good standing, particularly since they're the ones who have to deal with the fallout when sysops try a lenient approach that doesn't work. DurovaCharge! 20:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
For my part, I want to make clear that Durova has my complete support. If and when the community should decide to accept any future request by Bus stop to return to the Project, I would be happy to pick up my offer to monitor and mentor an effort at his "rehabilitation" to full editing rights. --Dweller 16:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't seem in any way confrontontational, because it isn't intended in that way, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you saying that, if at some point in the future Bus stop requests again that he be unblocked, and this request meets approval, you would be willing to do so? If yes, are we to understand that you now consider the most recently made request void in some way? Again, just seeking clarification. John Carter 17:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the most recently made request ended in an agreement to reinstate after 3 months. I posted a statement to Bus stop's talk page that I'd go back to my usual offer of 6 months if I thought the opportunity was being gamed. So basically we're back to the standard deal: I'll look at how things shape up after half a year. It's possible I might be persuaded to dip that again, particularly if Fred's persuaded too. But I don't think a time frame of just a few days or weeks is realistic. DurovaCharge! 17:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:NUM disagreement over inclusion criteria[edit]

I have been reverted several times on 42 (number) by Numerao (talk · contribs) (see history), with the rationale that I am not a member of the appropriate Wiki project, and thus have not thought the issues through. I have been deeply disturbed by the amount of incredibly trivial information that number articles tend to accumulate, and I've started occassionally pruning them down to something approaching sanity. I've left a comment here, on their project page. I am deeply concerned about a WikiProject being so exclusionary. --Eyrian 17:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see you complaining about this when someone added a rookie's jersey number and got reverted on the grounds of criteria given at WP:NUM. Anton Mravcek 21:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This pushed me over the edge. The criteria given by WP:NUM are bad, and should not be listened to. --Eyrian 21:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Good grief. The jersey number of random sportsmen? One of the six "Lost" numbers? Battlefield 2142 (huh?) .. the number of illustrations in Alice in Wonderland? I think you were quite right here. You've since been reverted for the third time, btw. ELIMINATORJR 18:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Eyrian was right about random sportsmen but wrong about Jackie Robinson. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 19:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Now then. The above user, who in over two years has edited nothing but music articles, has just put all that (non-musical) trivia back in again, in his/her first edit for nearly four weeks. (Numerao would've broken 3RR). Not too suspicious, really... ELIMINATORJR 19:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of coming under your suspicion, I'd like to point out that Volunteer Sibelius Salesman's 50 most recent edits also include two articles about episodes of The Simpsons and an AFD vote on the Red Sox's #55 draft pick, Nicholas Hagadone. As for the music articles he's edited, at least in the most recent 50, many of them are about symphonies with numbers, such as 2, 36, 3, 48, 4, 29, 97, etc. PrimeFan 22:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. Even so, that edit had my duck detector quacking rather loudly. Still, I'm assuming good faith for the time being... ELIMINATORJR 23:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Eyrian only pays lip service to general policy. His goal appears to be the enforcement of his will over a concensus built months ago by project members who didn't just think about reader expectations for the topic at hand but also considered general policy and even made concessions to fanatic deletionists. What would happen if Eyrian succeeded in enforcing his will on 42? Would he then expect WP:NUM members to re-shape the other number articles according to his established willfulness? Anton Mravcek 21:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, rhetoric without evidence is of little worth on this board. —Kurykh 21:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't require other users to enforce any policy anywhere; only abide when the changes are made. --Eyrian 21:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
What I'm hearing here is: "The criteria given by WP:NUM" (Eyr.) made by concensus "months ago by project members who didn't just think about reader expectations for the topic at hand but also considered general policy" (Mrav.) "are bad." (Eyr.) The opinion of one admin trumps that of several users. PrimeFan 22:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"The opinion of one admin trumps that of several users." - I don't think so. Adminship is no big deal and provides no extra clout in content disputes, only in dealing with policy violations such as WP:3RR.
That said, I think the WP:NUM gang needs to provide a diff to prove to Eyrian that there really was a consensus decision "months ago". Eyrian is then free to challenge that consensus by making proposals to change the guidelines currently in effect and thus forming a new consensus around his position if he can. Any admin worth his salt will defer to a consensus that is not in violation of policy. The standard dispute resolution procedures are available and should be used if necessary.
And, please. Discuss this on the Talk Page, not here. This page is not for resolving content disputes.
--Richard 22:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "diff" is, but if it is what I think it is, then the following constitute a small sampling. PrimeFan 22:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll explain what a "diff" is on your Talk Page. On reflection, they're not that relevant to this dispute. What you have provided is a good first step. I'm not going to read all the links. It's not an admin's job to resolve content disputes. Here's the key thing, though. What the WP:NUM people need to do is provide evidence to Eyrian that the pertinent issues have been discussed and decided by consensus (see WP:CONSENSUS for a definition). Eyrian has the right to re-open the question and challenge the consensus but, until he succeeds in changing the consensus by convincing other editors that he is right, he should not edit against consensus. If you prove that there is a consensus, he should abide by it. Have you guys proven the existence of a consensus? If not, do so quickly.

Be nice to Eyrian. Don't obstruct him if he tries to re-open the discussion on the Talk Page. He may be right, if only partially. However, if he edits against a documented consensus, come back here. Show us the proof of a consensus and show us the evidence of repeated edits against consensus and we'll consider corrective measures.

But, please, don't try to win the content dispute here. This is not the appropriate forum for it.

--Richard 23:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (news)[edit]

Have any of you deletionists thought of putting this on the WP:MFD block? It's nearly dead and most news discussion takes place at the Signpost tipline. Just testing the waters. DurovaCharge! 18:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Went ahead and did it myself. DurovaCharge! 20:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

User:WesleyDodds - inappropriate username?[edit]


I'm not sure that this is an appropriate username, because it is very similar to that of the serial killer/child molester Westley Dodd. I think that an admin should request that this user change his name, unless it is his real name.-- 01:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why, but I have reservations about having people who take their names from fictional characters, like Sandman (Wesley Dodds), told to change their names. I personally never heard of the serial killer in question, and Wesley Dodds is one of the more historical notable DC comics characters. John Carter 01:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's funny, most people don't get where the name comes from, even though you can do a quick search for it through Wikipedia (although this makes me wonder how many other people believe it's my real name). In short, my username is emphatically not a reference to any serial killers. Quite the opposite, as John Carter pointed out. WesleyDodds 01:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Good to know. Sorry for the inconvenience.-- 01:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
So, John, are you from Mars or from an emergency room? ;-) --Thespian 18:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

In the future, we have Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention.-Andrew c [talk] 01:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The Daniel Brandt talk page[edit]

The Daniel Brandt talk page had been deleted as a courtesy. It was recreated by Bryan Derksen. An IP claiming to be Brandt blanked it, saying "Blanked due to BLP violation. Those AfDs are full of defamatory statements. -- Daniel Brandt". Anittas reverted, saying "rv, so what if they're defamatory?". Another IP blanked it again, with "remove trolling", and Anittas reverted with "trolling restored".

The last thing we want is an edit war over this. I've deleted the page again. I bring this here for review. I personally think it should remain deleted, simply because it's the decent thing to do. However, I'm not prepared to fight over it. If admins agree that it should be deleted, I suggest that someone who knows how to should add it to the list of protected deleted titles. If admins decide it should be kept (and I really don't think that's a good idea), I suggest it should still be protected. But I'll wait and see what the general feeling is.

This is the history, prior to my deletion, but subsequent to the previous deletion:

10:20, 3 August 2007 . . Anittas  (trolling restored.)
09:38, 3 August 2007 . . (remove troling)
06:32, 3 August 2007 . . Anittas (rv, so what if they're defamatory?)
02:15, 3 August 2007 . . (Blanked due to BLP violation. Those AfDs are full of defamatory statements. -- Daniel Brandt)
16:24, 1 August 2007 . . Bryan Derksen (article deletion discussion history)

ElinorD (talk) 12:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe it was deleted, as a courtesy, per Jimbo. If it needs salting perhaps a note on his talkpage would be polite? LessHeard vanU 12:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would keep it deleted, and protect it. The article is not coming back, so the talk page has no purpose. If Mr Brandt ever becomes obviously noteworthy enough that an article really ought to be created (ie, something to the level of murdering a congressman, hosting his own talk show, or winning the 100m Olympic gold), then and only then would we need Talk:Daniel Brandt to be anything other than a redlink. Neil  12:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact, I have gone ahead and salted it, because I feel frightfully rouge. If consensus subsequently heads the other way, no problems with that being undone. Neil  13:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I endorse this action. I also find the edit summary "Anittas (rv, so what if they're defamatory?)" to be more than a little disturbing, as it shows a complete disregard for, or ignorance of, WP:BLP. - Crockspot 13:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, absolutely. Keep this page deleted, and salted. It's gone, and it's not coming back. I'm also very concerned with Anittas' total dismissal of Mr. Brandt's concerns. (So what if they're defamatory? I think we know the answer.) Sean William @ 13:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Support deletion and salting... have we had this discussion before? I just got the strongest sense of déjà vu that I've felt in a long time while I was responding to this.--Isotope23 talk 13:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Endorse salting. I previously created the page with the same deletion history and then deleted it when I thought better of it. If we're going to have these kinds of problems, salting is the best solution.--Chaser - T 13:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Salt can be good. Until(1 == 2) 13:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Endorse salting, and I too am concerned with Anittas' "so what if it's defamatory" comment. SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
He's no stranger to controversy... Will (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I've warned him about his actions. SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the salting, fair play to Neil for doing this. {{deletedtalkpage}} could have been used also, but it's locked, so that's good. Anittas' ignorance of WP:BLP (a core policy) should result in a block, but considering the length of his block log, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did block him. That said, over on Wikibooks, b:User:Daniel Brandt appeared today. Not sure if it's the same one from here or an impersonator, but best to assume good faith on this one.
Remember the delete/undeletion wars over Encyclopædia Dramatica and userboxes - we don't want to get into another war over this - we've already had Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Daniel Brandt deletion wheel war. But as it stands, Neil was bold enough to do this, and that's a good thing. --SunStar Net talk 15:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I endorse Neil's salting action as it was the right thing to do. -- Jreferee (Talk) 16:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, keep it deleted. Let it rest. DurovaCharge! 17:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Fracture copyright violation[edit]

Fracture (video game) has edits that are an exact copy of this which has a copyright by Lucasfilm, see [6], I think this needs to be removed from the edit history (that's possible, right?), I don't really know who to ask so I'm posting it here, also, I don't know what took me so long to do this. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 18:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

They don`t really need to be deleted per Wikipedia:Copyright violations on history pages. Sasquatch t|c 18:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

CSD Flower/Animal Genus Talk Page[edit]

Hey all, just wanted to drop a little note about the flower/animal genus talk pages popping up in CAT:CSD. They are at the moment being rapidly tagged by Polbot. If anyone strolls by CSD, see if you can help in deleting the massive influx of them. Thanks.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 19:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems they are mostly deleted now and the last I saw was Talk:Zygogeomys...¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 20:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

how do i get back into my made account[edit]

I requested for account name Milk-maid to be made ages ago in may at Wikipedia:Request_an_account but i cant remember what email I used to register (that the password was sent to - it was an anonymous one if i remember right) - and so the forgotten password thing is also useless

is there anything i can do or is the name lost forever now :(

If you can't access the email you registered with the account, we cannot help you get back to it. That does not mean the name is completely useless though - if the account has never edited, you can usurp it by following the instructions at Wikipedia:Changing username/Usurpations. Natalie 01:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
It hasn't edited, so it can be usurped. ViridaeTalk 01:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
A new user cannot usurp a username. Usurption is for established editors. I suggest you use an email address you remember next time. Secretlondon 01:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I am experiencing a similar password issue. The number of people handling this type of issue is, low. I was advised to e-mail about it. Anynobody 01:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a little trivial to be dealt with by Brion.. Secretlondon 01:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, as the request was made through WP:ACC, the email is in that page's deleted history, and admins can access it (admins, search for "milk" in the preview view of [7], then hover over the create link on that section to access the email in question). However, it's not clear how we could establish that you truly are the account holder of that account, so for security and privacy purposes unless this could be established somehow we couldn't give you the email. I have to go now, but maybe some other admin could think of some way to proceed from here? --ais523 17:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The City Drive[edit]

Emeraldweapon is editing The City Drive, despite admitting to be a member of the band here. Warning was previously issued. Brianga 01:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What are you asking administrators to do? Natalie 01:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Besides the copy and paste move (and a couple edits leading up to it), which I fixed, it does not appear he is doing anything wrong. WP:COI just means be careful and don't violate WP:NPOV orWP:V. His edits seem to be helpful. He added a discography and a source. The fact that he admitted it is actually preferred. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 01:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible Overzealous Use of Adminstrative Priveleges[edit]

I posted a question on a discussion page which did not equate anyone on here with an external identity.

"N" posted a warning [[8]] for "trolling". I responded [[9]] primarily asking him to remember WP:AGF & WP:CIVIL before threatening me some some kind of 'punishment' for something I and at least one other editor clearly felt was not trolling.

He promptly removed this request from his talk page and now has placed a "final warning" [[10]] on my user talk page, insinuating I restored the original edit in question as the basis for his "final warning" (it repeats a variation on his original accusation against me).

Could somebody please make some sense about how warnings over an edit that has remained reverted can escalate simply for making a reasonable request that "N" remember WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL? I cannot follow this logic.

Thanks. 02:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing N (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) as an admin in the user rights log. Additionally, you were adding a name to a user talk. Also, you cannot compel an editor to participate in a discussion, can't make him/her answer. I don't really see any overzealous use here. Navou banter 03:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to make sure I am conveying this: Original edit of mine notwithstanding, I was given a "warning"; I asked N (aka user:Nardman1) to remain civil & agf, and then "N" gave me a "final warning" for the same original edit which stayed reverted the entire time. Thanks and sorry not trying to get a big discussion going, just want to make sure I am understood. 03:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Not only were the comments you were warned for uncivil, rude, and totally unrelated to maintaining an encyclopedia but your response to the basic template warning N gave you was borderline uncivil: "Otherwise you risk being perceived as ignorant of Wikipedia rules and eager to engage in inapproriate behavior." - coming from a user who seems to have made no constructive encyclopedic contributions. Users are only supposed to assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 03:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • .*.*.56, Is there a specific administrative resolution you'd like? If he ain't an admin, it 'tain no thing. Also, consider creating an account. - CHAIRBOY () 03:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What I find troubling is not so much as what he is doing, as his apparent attempts to hide things - as well as his avoidance of coming forth to state his side of things. Sadly, I have seen such numerous times.

N, I officially call upon you - come forth and state your case.

Psycho Samurai 16:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sigh... This whole thread makes me tired. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked this IP, as its first ever Wikipedia edit was to harass and attempt to out another editor, and all subsequent posts are attacking other editors who are attempting to point out this behavior is unacceptable. Crum375 16:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism Parole Proposal[edit]

Please see here for a proposal about unblocking users and giving them parole. Feel free to comment/add. --(Review Me) R ParlateContribs@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 03:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should you also put this on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for wider community input? LessHeard vanU 10:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

These articles may be deleted without further notice since this message has remained in place for five days.[edit]

Hoponpop69 02:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone direct me to a discussion[edit]

It must be happening somewhere. How is slamming new user's talk pages with endless bot notices about image uploads not a violation of WP:BITE? Just welcomed a new user, the umpteeth time I've done that under a dozen image notices. Would it not be easier to simply prevent new users from uploading images the way we prevent them from moving pages? I know this isn't the place for this, but if there is a discussion somewhere about this, please direct me to it, cause, dammit, I find myself with an opinion! ;) Dina 01:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, an editor who doesn't read / can't be bothered with / doesn't understand / doesn't care about / the instructions on the upload wizard probably isn't going to change their ways X days later. On the other hand, it would stop a lot of one-shot editors / attack images etc. ELIMINATORJR 02:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it appears to me anecdotally that some folks upload images that might be fair use -- screen shots, etc.-- because they see them on a lot of other articles, but they don't understand how to provide a fair use criteria so they get slammed for it. I can't abuse them for not understanding the criteria -- I understand it exactly enough to know that I simply won't upload an image using the fair use criteria because it's a frickin' minefield from what I can see. But I do see a lot of attack images, blatant vandalous copy vios (porn, etc.), pics of friends, plain old stupid pictures etc. that could simply be avoided if you couldn't upload images without waiting a period of time. I mean, has an image ever been uploaded by a user on their very first day that didn't end up deleted? I suspect very few. And the good faith folks would probably benefit from the x number of days and at least then they would be more likely to get a welcome before 12 warnings on their talk. Dina 03:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
A welcome message is... not a priority. Also, the messages from the bot are informative, they're telling the user how to fix something. It's not leaving notes like "You motherfucking idiot, you just screwed up BIG TIME", it's saying "Hello! An image you uploaded is missing a licensing blah blah blah, we need blah blah etc." It's not a bite. - CHAIRBOY () 05:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not the content of the messages from the bot that I object to, they are fine. It's the profusion of them. New editors who ignore the instructions on the upload page seem, in my anecdotal experience, to upload more than one image. Perhaps that's the solution? You can upload one image as a new account. Or one a day? The restriction might motivate some folks to read and figure out why that's the case. They can learn how to do it, and the learn how not to do it, all in one step. Because it seems that they will inevitably do it wrong the first time anyway. And more interested editors might click a link that says "Why you are only allowed to upload one image right now" than a list of rules and regs that they are clearly not reading Dina 05:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
And while welcome messages are not a priority, as someone who was welcomed myself once, they do let a new user know that there are basic guidelines, places to go for help, and other people out there, not just bots. Mine mattered to me frankly. If I had just gotten 12 bot warnings first, I probably would have said fuck it, you know? Dina 05:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
(Undent) Nah, I'm with Dina on this one. Welcome messages are kind of cool - they let a newbie know that this place is run by humans, and not by bots, and they provide really, really helpful newbie links. I mean, what newbie on their own is going to find the five pillars? Or etiquette conventions? Or any of those other things? Welcome templates are useful, and important. On the other hand, most people are going to look at bot messages about their images and go, "Wtf is this? Why is this thing yelling at me fifty times? Christ on a stick, this place is hell!" Then they (very likely) either get mad and become trolls, or get mad and leave. This is not good. On the other hand, if we at least make them wait a few days the way they already have to wait to make new articles, they're not going to get slammed with bot messages before coming into contact with humans, and they may just find our image policies first. Consider this: if we make them wait, we could add something about the wait period to the welcome message, linking to image policy, so that newbies could see policy and read it before they just leapt madly into image uploads. I suspect a wait period would at least trim the number of crap images we get. ♠PMC♠ 07:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
But they do see policy, when they go to upload an image - and obviously choose to ignore it. Then they do it again, and/or get a warm orange banner across the top of their page telling them they have a new message, which they ignore too... Maybe its the upload page that needs to change? Or the software, not accepting an upload unless something has been filled in for licensing/fair use? BastunBaStun not BaTsun 18:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The upload page certainly does need to change. I was nearing 1000 edits when I made my first image uploads, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out what to do. I was baffled, and after 2 years on the site and a half a year of intense editing, started messing up again. I found it difficult. The other issue is the assumption that, as in other sections of Wikipedia, people will correct your mistakes. Unfortunately too much of the image rules, even if its clear to more experienced editors where the issue lies, even if it would be of benefit to Wikipedia for someone else to just straighten out the tangles, we're *not supposed to*. Image issues tend to be a seriously toss 'em in, see if they sink or swim issue. --Thespian 08:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, the simplest solution would be to disable file uploads for new users the same way page moves & page creations are. It may not be a complete solution, but it would be an easy first step. And it would give the Wikipedia Welcoming Group a chance to educate the newbies. -- llywrch 04:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


Per the request of several users, and over a dozen implementation plans that were scraped I now have a beta version of WikiProject support if your wikiproject wants notified about images that are under its scope please leave a note on my talk page with the template names that your wikiproject uses and the page that you want BCbot to leave messages on. βcommand 02:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Good Job Betacommand. Hopefully this will reduce the number of images that get deleted and could actually be justified. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Remember this is a opt in feature, projects will need to come to me. βcommand 22:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, that's great! Is there any place to explain how this works? By "templates" do you mean the bot will look for the project's template on an article discussion page when it's tagging an image from that article, or are you saying we should give you the name of a template for the bot to alert us on the project page that an image was tagged? Please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, just a little unclear. Wikidemo 00:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
what ever template name(s) the project uses to tag articles. IE {{wikiproectfoo}} and the page where you want BCBot to report to. Please remember that this function is just being tested and that it may not work right yet but as comments come in Ill modify the code. βcommand 00:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Harmful thred?[edit]

There's an ongoing discussion that should never have started encased in archiving templates at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Jossi's revert. Jossi (talk · contribs) mistakely made an unnecessary revert (something was added to the page after discussion that had nothing to do with the ongoing policy dispute), and mikkalai (talk · contribs) started stirring up trouble. I warned Mikka and added archiving templates because this was uncalled and absolutely inappropriate to put there, but the discussion keeps on and is just worsening what already looks like a sour situation. The more I look at it, the more I just want to either nuke the entire thread or give mikkalai a block for disruptive/inflamatory editing. Any thoughts? Circeus 14:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a valid attempt to deal with real issues to me. Until(1 == 2) 16:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is closed with the archive templates now. I'm not sure what you think needs doing. Blocking Mikkalai for a punitive reason is not the answer though. He's not persisting the issue right now, so just let it the conversation die out without going and removing it, causing more unneeded drama. — Moe ε 17:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I closed it right after my comment. It continued for 14 hours within them. Circeus 19:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
It appears to have ceased now, right? Mikkalai is off editing other things, nothing should be done unless he actually goes back and stirs it up again. — Moe ε 19:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

New Straw Poll on Wikipedia:Autoconfirmed Proposal[edit]

Just so all the admins know, a straw poll has been started for Wikipedia:Autoconfirmed Proposal at Wikipedia talk:Autoconfirmed Proposal/Straw Poll. Please come and voice your opinion. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 20:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

  • ... which is pretty pointless since this is a feature request. Just go and talk to the Devs. >Radiant< 10:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


Not really sure what to do with this. I found User:Wartime1 a long time ago as a account, logged in and changed the password. I guess it could be blocked, but no one can use it, and I forgot the password long ago. I just came across it since I was cleaning out my watchlist and realized I totally forgot about it. More than likely this message is unnecessary, as the account will just sit there, but incase I'm not thinking of something, there ya go. -- Ned Scott 09:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

And just thought to check bugmenot again, . Two of the four are blocked already, one is wartime that I mentioned, but not sure about User:danglinger. -- Ned Scott 09:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess this one is active as well. -- Danglinger 09:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is. This account needs to be blocked. --Danglinger 15:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC) (Confirming that it was I who made the edit. --Calton | Talk 15:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC))
Danglinger is now blocked. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I just checked my talk page and saw that this account had posted their password there... once the major "huh?!" moment passed, I was about to block as a possible shared/compromised account, but I see the real story and that it's been done already, so thank you. I don't particularly care to speculate as to why I was the first person this editor decided to contact after creating the account... --Kinu t/c 16:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
After looking at the bugmenot site, the user is apparently just a new sockpuppet of the banned User:Resaurusb (who seems to have a vendetta against me, so the attempts to contact me were probably just trolling) anyway. I have no idea how posting the accounts' passwords on the web is of any value, but eh. --Kinu t/c 16:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
user:Danglinger needs blocked as well. See bugmenot. ~ Wikihermit 16:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC) (blocked already)

Of course, if someone at Wikimedia would spend an hour with the bugmenot exemption page, this could be permanently fixed. Wikipedia is clearly in their possible exemptions. It just needs administration from the server side and an hour or two to just remove all wikipages and save admins some time on this. --Thespian 20:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Even more doable since is already blocked by Bugmenot, it seems, so that demonstrates that bugmenot maintainers probably see what's the problem. =) Though it would probably make more sense to just ask them to block all Wikimedia domains in one fell swoop... --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 15:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

COI and copyright problems[edit]

West 47th Street (film) and Bill Lichtenstein appear to have been created by Bill Lichtenstein himself, at least partially from material for which he holds and retains the copyright.[11][12][13] 08:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If you believe this material to be copied, use the {{copyvio}} template, stating the suspected source. It says what the authpr should do if he/she is the owner of the material.
Once that's dealt with, feal free to place a {{coi}} tag on it. Od Mishehu 12:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Screw it - I've provided all the information I have. I have no idea what the source is, merely that an anon IP has claimed to be Lichtenstein and claims to have created one of the pages using material for which he holds the copyright. If I thought the COPYVIO template was applicable in this case, I would have used it; it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to get through to process-bound minds. But if the hoops are more important to you than the use of copyrighted material, fine. 18:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
What action were you requesting be taken? It would appear that more research would be needed, no matter who acts on it. How does that equate to "the hoops" being more important? Leebo T/C 18:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the "hoops" that required admin attention by posting here included looking in the article history for a copyvio tag that showed the source material. I've stubbed Bill Lichtenstein to get rid of the copyvio because a random IP "releasing" this for use doesn't cut it in my book. This didn't require a post here though...pretty much anyone who can edit a page could have taken care of this.--Isotope23 talk 18:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Isotope23; I wasn't comfortable making changes to the articles because of 1) my unfamiliarity with copyright law and the Foundation's interpretations of it, and 2) ignorance of the process when a source for alleged copyrighted material is unknown. Despite that, it seemed obvious that further attention was needed outside of the template resources available. 19:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


RDNS is "". My guess is this is a gateway between a secure DoD network and the Internet. It has a history of some vandalism but mostly good edits. Is there a tag to apply to the talk header to alert people dealing with it? Also (I'm assuming) it's not considered an "open proxy" (although it may in fact be open to a great many people)? -Nard 22:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I tagged it with {{SharedIP}}, noting the squadron and Air Force base. I do this whenever I come across IPs registered to military bases and many turnout to be shared computers in base libraries. Probably just bored/unsupervised kids. - auburnpilot talk 00:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Checking page history of deleted version of relief sculpture[edit]

I recently created a redirect from relief sculpture to relief, but while doing so I noticed that a previous version of relief sculpture had been deleted as "nonsense". This struck me as strange, as this is a fairly common architectural term. I was wondering if a vandal had turned the previously existing page into nonsense, which might then have been deleted without anyone checking the page history. I also noticed that the deletion took place on 29 November 2005, but when I checked "what links here" for relief sculpture, I found three links (all of which were red-links before I recreated the page): (1) This version of an image page on 16 July 2005; (2) an edit to Talk:Dürer's Rhinoceros on 20 August 2006; and (3) the addition of the link to the page List of basic sculpture topics with this edit back in October 2001! That last example is back at the dawn of Wikipedia!! The second link was probably always red. I don't know when the first and second links turned blue, as I don't know when the deleted version of relief sculpture was created, but this all leads me to suspect that there may be salvageable content that was obscured by vandalism and then deleted without checking. Of course, it could also be that the current article of relief is quite adequate (see the page history), but technically any salvageable content should be merged and previous non-vandalised versions made visible. After all this, I will be most disappointed if there are no non-vandalised versions hidden away there. So, my questions are: (a) could someone please check this? ; (b) if there was a previous non-vandalised version, is there a way of checking whether redlinks were later removed after the deletion of 29 November 2005? ; and (c) is there a location to ask for admins to check page histories in this way? I thought of asking for a history restore at deletion review, but I thought here would get the same result. Thanks. Carcharoth 23:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There were only two edits to relief sculpture: The first was a string of gibberish, the second was a speedy tag. IrishGuy talk 23:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Exactly right. Cat on your keyboard type keyboarding. --FloNight 23:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Often, users see a link, click it, and find it doesnt exist and it asks them to create it. These users often insert random nonsense, then it gets deleted. That's likely what happened in this case. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 23:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. I'm guessing the first version of the page got deleted very soon after it was created? If that's the case, don't bother replying to confirm, I'll assume that was the case. Carcharoth 01:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Continued Personal Attacks by User:Chrisjnelson.[edit]

As my request at WP:ANI has not helped, would someone please step in and put a stop to this? Here is yet another example of this user attacking me. Continued warnings have done nothing as he was warned several times. In fact, one warning was issued at WP:ANI here. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  07:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Note the two users were in discussion at Wikipedia:Community enforceable mediation/Fangio and Nelson due to a disagreement over just how to link to Pro Bowls. Nevertheless, Chris is goading Juan, and I've asked him to stop that. The whole thing could probably use somebody knowledgable about the NFL (ie, not me) to step in and help out - both are gaming 3RR and the mediation was called off due to both being 100% certain they were correct and swearing to never let the other get their way. Neil  08:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, I have not asserted that "I am correct". What I have said is that Chris' point of view, and the "alternative" point of view are both 100% legitimate. Because of that, I have proposed a neutral solution. This is starting to spread like a virus and I'm close to taking this to the ArbCom. If someone wants to advise me otherwise, I'm all ears. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  08:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
  • If Chris' point of view is acceptable, and he really really really wants it, why not just let him get his way? This would surely be better than going to ArbCom over something so minor. Neil  08:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't actually think it's minor at this point. Chris has expressed WP:OWN numerous times and has attacked me even more. This is actually overflow from Template talk:Infobox NFL player, where he was driven off. A number of other people have agreed that Chris' perspective is no more correct than the other. I'm happy to find a neutral solution, but it doesn't seem that he is willing to. If Chris gets his way, then this aspect of the template will be constantly edited (as others have said). I'm just trying to find some middle ground. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  08:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm going to take this to your talk page, there's nothing that particularly needs admin attention. Neil  08:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, it seems SeraphimBlade has decided to take it to Arbitration anyway. Then I shall not bother. Neil  09:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Alleged sockpuppetry by Orderinchaos[edit]