Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1008

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Editing on SNC-Lavalin Affair by User:Curly Turkey and others[edit]

Hi, I'd like to get an outside look at the talk page discussions and article edits on this page. Certain edits by Curly Turkey have I think been uncivil. ("this kind of bullshit", "Jesus Christ, this is exasperating. (...) Do I have to hold your hand and walk you through our sourcing guidlines?", "Aside from your contempt for our sourcing guidelines, you seem to have a vested interest in including "LavScam" in the lead paragraph", "don't make a fool of yourself, Legacypac", "The belligerence some of these editors continue to show—and the facile dismissal of all evidence provided—demonstrates this is a behavioural issue that won't be solved through discussion. The bad faith is so thick you can cut it with a knife—just take a look at Legacypac's FUD that I'm pushing some unnamed "agenda" below." (Referencing this by Legacypac), "I've brought you to task over the intransigent, bad-faith, POV-pushing, policy-violating manner in which it is presented. ANI will decide whether you'll get away with it.")

Other edits have had less than civil remarks in the edit summaries, like "a single-mindedness that should be treated with great suspicion", "WP:WEIGHT is WP:POLICY; if you continue to violate policy, we can sort this out at WP:ANI, if you'd like", "learn how to use a source"

I am also concerned about certain of their arguments regarding sources, but I don't know if this is the right place to talk about that. All other editors currently in the discussion also have disagreements with many of their policy arguments, and accusations of misbehaviour of different types have been raised by others. I have tried to be calm and reasonable, as well as to ask for more specificity in P&G citations, but I don't feel it's helped much.

I have said something to Curly which I'm not sure about civility status on: "You don't need to ping me twice in the same reply to me on a page I'm watching. It comes off as aggressive and condescending, which I'm sure wasn't your intention." I would like some outside advice or input, or something, on the whole state of the discussion and what the bar for civility is, because I thought it was higher than this. The relevant talk page sections begin at Curly Turkey Edits. Curly has also opened a section on my talk page, Sourcing, about a couple reverts I made which make me think I've lost my patience. Safrolic (talk) 05:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I would like to second what Safrolic has written here. Things have not improved since. Other editors have tried to engage with Curly on improvements to the article but we are not able to discuss content. Curly simply accuses anyone who disagrees with him of bad faith. When asked what specifically he thinks needs to be improved he tends to go silent or shift to allegations. This is becoming extremely disruptive. Unfortunately, I do not see this de-escalating without intervention.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk)

Now User:Bradv has started edit warring [1] (second removal) and misrepresenting the talkpags discussion. When I reverted them once, adding yet another ref, they claimed it was all right wing media. Curly turkey needs a topic ban and Bradv needs a talking to. Google LavScam and look at how pretty much every media outlet in Canada and places like CNN (hardly right wing) are using this term. This is a politically charged topic and our job is to follow the socerces not whitewash the page and downplay everything. If many many media outlets call something X we also note that in the lede. Legacypac (talk) 06:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

This isn't appropriate or helpful. I asked for outside input, and mentioned others, for a reason. Bradv's got good judgment. Safrolic (talk) 06:18, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Legacypac, I took a look at the article in response to the conversation started here, and saw a pretty glaring NPOV issue right off the bat. I've now started an RfC. – bradv🍁 06:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
If there is a glaring NPOV it is because Curly turkey has been butchering the page. You never participated in the talkpage discussion. Explain your edit warring and removal of three sources. Legacypac (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
So ... you're personally attacking every editor who calls out your POV-pushing ... Littleolive oil, myself, Bradv ... who next? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Suspected astroturfing at SNC-Lavalin affair[edit]

The following is an incomplete draft of an ANI report I've been working on. Long as it is, many issues and diffs are yet to come. Sorry I did not have the time to make it more concise and readable. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

While attempting to copyedit SNC-Lavalin affair, I kept running into sourcing issues: description of something as "illegal" where none of the three cited sources did; description of a hashtag as a "colloquialsim", later reverted three times[2][3][4] with the same source about the term as a hashtag; Padding of a quotation with multiple sources, when only one gave the full quote; and so on ...

I've tried to fix the article in various ways: adding sources, rewording, and removing inappropriate sources. I've run into considerable pushback from other editors there, including one who asserts sources are "not required to support all the material in the paragraph, that's ridiculous" while removing a [better source needed] tag.

One example alternate term: "Wilson-Raybould scandal", 75,800 hits
"LavScam", 71,500 hits

The most concerning behaviour has been the insistence on including the term "LavScam" in the lead sentence. The term is one of a large number of terms that have been used to describe the issue, including "Wilson-Raybould scandal", "PMO scandal", "Trudeau scandal", and a list of variations of the article title that I removed as redundant and predictable. The only term the editors have fought to restore is "LavScam", despite the fact that several terms (that are not variations of the current title) return a greater number of Google hits (see screenshots).

Early on, I characterized the article's issues as "sloppy", but the single-minded pushback over "LavScam" has made me suspicious. I searched for how the media used this term and found it rare or nonexistent in outlets such as CBC News, the National Post, and the Toronto Star, but the favoured term in the right-wing tabloid the Toronto Sun—in fact, two thirds of hits in a Google News search are from this single source ("Lavscam": 4940 hits, '"Lavscam" -torontosun.com': 1,650 hits). To put things in perspective: Trudeau Lavalin: 665,000 hits; Trudeau Lavalin -LavScam: 655,000 hits. "LavScam" barely registers at all, and a supermajority of hits come from a single source.

I then went back through the article talk page and found a previous dispute these editors had had with User:Littleolive oil over who to highlight in the lead. The affair is a divisive one in Canada, and there is no consensus over who is to blame. Legacypac repsonded with this POV:

"I prefer the PM's picture. This scandal is about him, not the former AG who was allegedly pressured"

The AG being Wilson-Raybould; newssources differ on who is to blame, and many of them have named the scandal after Wilson-Raybould, the Prime Minister, or SNC-Lavalin.

Legacypac's first edit to the talk page was commentary "The most interesting part is how SNC paid for the son of a dictator to tour Canada hiring expensive call girls for him." Legacypac and Littleolive then engaged in some editwarring until this comment was finally removed: [5] [6][7][8][9]. Legacypac clearly has a POV and has a history of fighting for it on this article. Other editors who have participated include Harris Seldon, Darryl Kerrigan, and Safrolic.

... Work in progress: Persistent WP:IDONTHEARTHAT behaviour, and dismissal of empirical evidence and policies, including WP:INTEGRITY, WP:WEIGHT, WP:OR, and WP:SYNTH ...

The consistent pushback against my attempts to clean up the article's sourcing, dismissal of numerous policies, single-minded focus on the term "LavScam", explicit expressions of POVs ... these have me suspicious of an astroturfing campaign there. At the very least, these editors have demonstrated an unwillingness to respect Wikipedia's sitewide sourcing policies and, consciously or not, have repeatedly introduced and reinforced (sometimes through editwarring) POV into a politically-sensitive article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Re: "not required to support all the material in the paragraph, that's ridiculous", that was my error- I thought we were talking about a paragraph with multiple citations for specific sentences, and that you were saying the source for only the last sentence, was also required to support all the material in the paragraph I thought was cited already. It was that leap/reaction which I was referring to above when I said I think I've lost my patience. Safrolic (talk) 08:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
There was and is material in that paragraph that does not appear in any of the citations in the paragraph. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
My sin here, and that of some others, has simply been disagreeing with Curly Turkey on the question of whether the term LavScam should be included. There seems to be some question about other edits and sourcing but I don't believe I have "participated" in that conduct. My disagreement with Turkey was limited, I believe, to placing the term LavScam back in the article when others agreed it should be there (Turkey excluded) and disagreeing with Turkey in the Talk page. It is regrettable that we find ourselves here. There have been assumptions of bad faith largely all around (by myself included). It is clear though that on the distinct issue of the inclusion of LavScam in the article, which seems to have become the main lightning rod here, Curly Turkey has formed the view that others cannot disagree with him on this issue without acting in bad faith. That is regrettable. That is why we are here.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Update: there's now an editwar ongoing between Legacypac and Bradv over "LavScam" in the lead,[10][11][12] in the middle of which Legacypac removed a {{Cite check}} template, despite the number of problematic citations that continue to turn up. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Check his diffs carefully because he is not being very accurate here. Just as anexample I removed a check cite tag while adding another cite. Legacypac (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
This is a straight-up lie—not only did Legacypac not add a cite, no cite has been added by any user since that edit. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:11, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I think he's referring to his edit immediately before that one [13], where he adds a third reference, to the Toronto Sun, in addition to the two he restored after bradv removed the lavscam thing. I don't think it was a good source, or a good chain of edits, or that it addressed the actual concern re: the lavscam thing, or that that specific bit was the only reason you put that tag up. But I do think it's inaccurate and unfair to call what he said here a straight-up lie. Safrolic (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Does not compute: Legacypac's edit comment was "Don't need that tag", and the {{Check cite}} tags the entire article, which I've been systematically checking over the sources of for more WP:INTEGRITY violations. No, Legacypac was straight-up lying and spreading FUD. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Every other editor on the page is disagreeing with Curly and yet he persists on verbal assaults on other editors. This has gone too far. Time to remove Curly from the article as he is being very disruptive. Legacypac (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
I concur. Curly Turkey is being disruptive and uncivil, and quite evidently does not WP:HEAR very well. Regardless of any problems that might exist with the article, he is in no way assisting with any resolution. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
(Aside from being the only one who has identified and fixed any of the many policy-violating sourcing issues ...)
We're left with the same WP:IDHT about policy adherence that we've had since the beginning of this drahmah—policy enforcement is the "disruption" they object to, and which led to the earlier campaign against Littleolive oil (who identified WP:WEIGHT issues, POV issues, WP:INTEGRITY issues, and other issues until being bullied off the page).
Several of the editors involved are brand new with only a few hundred edits to their names (PavelShk, Safrolic, Harris Seldon, Darryl Kerrigan), so it's not so surprising that they'd misunderstand or undervalue our sourcing policies—a couple of them have admitted so themselves. Legacypac's vitriol and FUD appears have emboldened them to his ends, and they've followed his example in editwarring to retain policy-violating sourcing. One example: there is currently an WP:INTEGRITY-violating source in the article (the quotation that precedes it does not exist in the source cited)—and this group refuses to allow it to be fixed, editwarring to keep it in its WP:INTEGRITY-violating state. Here are my attempts to reason with them about it:[14][15][16] Yet it remains. This example is lower priority than some of the others (such as the "illegal" one I link to above"), but it illustrates the unnecessary effort needed to fix anything in this article.
So many other issues remain—the article still needs a full source check for WP:INTEGRITY given the numerous violations, and it has suffered from cherrypicked sources supporting particular POVs, as well as WP:OR and WP:SYNTH issues.
Our sourcing policies are not optional—particularly in a politics article involving BLPs—and cannot be left to the discretion of POV-pushers. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Here's a prime example of the exasperating IDHT from Darryl Kerrigan, from today:
DK: "You proposed multiple alternative names along with LavScam."
CT: "I proposed no such thing, and have responded to this WP:IDHT repeatedly. I pointed out it was a violation of WP:WEIGHT to single out "LavScam" when other, more common alternatives were available, and then pointed out that giving prominence to a term that appears in a fraction of 1% of sources—the majority of which are to a single source—is a violation of WP:WEIGHT."
DK: "Your arguments here have have been shifting, often vaugue, circular and ultimately dishonest."
CT: "you keep saying this, and yet I see no diffs to back it up. It's simple: follow our sourcing policies. Find me a diff of something I said that is not essentially that"
DK: "Try reading discussion of LavScam above where you propose alterate names ..." (none of the requested diffs)
CT: "I never "proposed" alternate names (and you've provided no diff that I did). I listed names that appear as or more frequently as "LavScam" and explicitly stated so. I also explicitly stated that including "LavScam" would require listing the alternate names per WP:WEIGHT, but that I was opposed to doing so for readability reasons. I strengthened my standing oppose when it was discovered that the term is used in a small fraction of 1%, 2/3 of which were from the Toronto Sun, per the same WP:WEIGHT argument."
DK: "The best anyone has been able to get out of you is that maybe you are talking about "Wilson-Raybould Scandal" as an additional term" (!!!!!!) (again none of the requested diffs)
Here's where I first mentioned "Wilson-Raybould scandal":
CT: "there's also "Wilson-Raybould scandal" and its variations, "SNC scandal" and its variations, "PMO scandal", and so on. Listing them all would not be against the guidelines, but would be ridiculous and hinder readability. They may be appropriate elsewhere in the body, but cluttering up the lead paragraph with them benefits no reader."
Note that not only do I not "propose" it, I explictly propose against its inclusion, as I have consistently throughout these discussions. This can be re-explicated only so many times before it's obvious one's dealing with deliberate WP:IDHT belligerence. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:37, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
CT: you really, really should consider that everyone else here – do you want a poll? – sees "deliberate WP:IDHT belligerence" as applying to you. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Legal threat made by Techbeatz1200[edit]

Nothing to see here... not a threat, per se, just a badly worded temper tantrum. User warned. Dusti*Let's talk!* 02:54, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When I nominated his sandbox page for deletion, he responded:

Why are you trying to delete my page. You have no right. I am the producer techbeatz1200. If you have any problems you can contact me. If you pursue any unlawful procedures against me I will dispute them with Wikipedia and file necessary actions against you.
— User:Techbeatz1200 01:59, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:LEGAL, this is not allowed. User should be blocked indefinitely until he retracts this threat. theinstantmatrix (talk) 02:12, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that's a legal threat as much as a badly-worded threat to take you to a noticeboard. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 02:16, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
The user has a choice to either conduct disputes via on-wiki methods or legally; it appears as though they, with this message, want to take the on-wiki route. It's isn't "not allowed" per se, nor are blocks from legal threats intended to force them to retract such threats. Vermont (talk) 02:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Not a legal threat, just someone who doesn't understand that you can't advertise on Wikipedia. I've deleted the sandbox and left a warning for promotional editing. Acroterion (talk) 02:35, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Arint and his edits on PewDiePie vs T-Series and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PewDiePie vs T-Series (2nd nomination)[edit]

For the past few hours days, Arint (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been repeatedly marking PewDiePie vs T-Series spuriously for speedy deletion. Diffs include [17], [18] (which included a page-blank) and [19]. Arint is aware that article has passed a recent AfD discussion, closed as Speedy Keep (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PewDiePie vs T-Series), which was why he even created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PewDiePie vs T-Series (2nd nomination) (creation diff [20]).

Arint has been warned repeatedly on the user's talk page to stop tagging the article for deletion spuriously, but has persisted in doing so ([21]).

Throughout this, Arint has kept insisting that the article should be deleted/speedily deleted in his own thinking. His repeated ignorance of warnings demonstrate his failure to learn and understand deletion policies and procedures. Moreover his edit at [22] demonstrates his refusal to discuss this issue civilly and maturely. Immediate action should be taken against Arint to prevent further disruption to the articles and Wikipedia. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 17:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Diff on 19 April: [23] (where his request for speedy deletion was declined by Praxidicae ([24]). His insistence on having it his way has gone back even further than a few hours that I initially thought. All in all Arint has demonstrated extreme disruptive behaviour to make a point. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 17:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Arint has also attempted to refactor comments on the first closed AfD (diffs [25], and [26] even after warning). Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 17:29, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
@Pppery, Praxidicae, Theinstantmatrix, and JackintheBox: Pinging the users who were involved in reverting his tagging. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 17:34, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
I was trolling. Also, stop referring to me as a male. I am gender fluid. --Arint (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Well please do us all a favor and dry up. EEng 10:15, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
I have blocked Arint for one week for disruptive editing (trolling), with a warning that if they resume trolling, the next block will be indefinite. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
@Cullen328: Would you be able to finish the cleanup? I have tagged Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PewDiePie vs T-Series (2nd nomination) for deletion: G6, spurious creation of article. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 18:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 18:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

66.35.116.133[edit]

There's nothing more to do here.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:44, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could someone please look at 66.35.116.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). This one is a puzzler. My initial response was leaning towards "just someone having a bit of fun, might as well post a humorous reply". Right now I am 50/50 between "this is a misunderstanding caused by language/culture and "I am being trolled and we should discuss the possiblity of WP:NOTHERE". --Guy Macon (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I just want to help. Forget about it now I guess. Nobody wants to help me so I will go elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.35.116.133 (talk) 13:00, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
66.35.116.133 blocked with an expiration time of 2 weeks (anon. only, account creation blocked) (CheckUser block). --Guy Macon (talk) 16:05, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Guy Macon, I extended an olive branch- hopefully when the IP comes back, they'll be a bit more serious and/or interested. We'll see. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 23:39, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
I reverted your edit. Please don't do it again. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:42, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lute88 & Galassi[edit]

Lute88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Galassi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Quite a long time it is known that one of these accounts is a sockpuppet. See discussions: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Lute88 of 2008, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lute88/Archive of 2017. But strangely, no measures have been taken so far. In the meantime they continue to support each other. For example, Galassi reverting edits of the user Αντικαθεστωτικός in the one article: [27] and Lute88 reverting the same user in the mentioned article: [28] It seems to me, that Lute88 account is usually used in a more aggressive manner. Thus, today, Galassi had reverted my edit, but then he made self-revert. But then, suddenly, Lute88 made a revert again: [29] This is some kind of abnormal situation. So, I think it will be better to block the Lute88 account, so that Galassi does not feel free from compliance with the rules of Wikipedia.--Nicoljaus (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

You should file a case then at SPI if sockpuppetry is the main problem. 2601:1C0:6D00:845:A1CC:ECC6:F0C4:44F4 (talk) 05:01, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can see, the question has already been disassembled at SPI in 2017. But perhaps it’s worth finding out why users with dynamic IP of 2601 series and disruptive behavior ( [30], [31]) and Lute88 support each other so often.--Nicoljaus (talk) 06:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, well it appears it was already established that Lute88 and Galassi share an IP address, so any major collusion between the accounts would obviously be a possible matter of either sock or meat puppetry. Pinging @Bbb23:, the original checkuser at the SPI. Black Kite (talk) 08:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

I also have to point out that Galassi was put under an indefinite revert limitation back in 2011 under Eastern Europe DS, which they seem to have ignored routinely while I wasn't watching closely. Fut.Perf. 08:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

And my past interactions with Lute88 suggest that they should be put under a similar limitation, if not topic-banned from EE topics at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Totally inpolite. I don't understand why he does such things. He has been reverting everything i wrote, but i didn't understand that he was the same person. Now i known. thank you. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
It should not be arxived without a summary, even if the summary is that nothing should be done at this point, or that ANI is not a right venue.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:46, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
To prevent automatic archivation--Ymblanter (talk) 07:33, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • User Nicoljaus was blocked for harassment. G. and L. are two different people. Yes, they edited the same page. But there was no anything problematic with their edits on this page, in terms of content or anything else. Please close this thread. My very best wishes (talk) 15:19, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:COMPETENCE[edit]

SPA indeffed. Nanophosis (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So I think that BandGoBlue2020 (talk · contribs) is displaying some major WP:COMPETENCE issues. To wit:

Their talk page is a minefield of disambiguation link notifications stretching over a year, which shows absolutely zero attempt to learn from mistakes or fix them. Edits like this show no evidence of learning how to interact with other editors, asking "WHO REMOVED Closer Tour? Bring it back" to no one in particular.

This user has been here for over a year and has displayed no improvement in editing skills whatsover: no acknowledgement of their myriad warnings, no real content creation, no concept of basic Wikipedia skills such as talk pages, addition of sources, etc. What should be done? Is this block worthy? Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 23:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Their userpage alone is enough to bring up WP:COMPETENCE problems. Also, this just happened. Vermont (talk) 03:03, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
@Vermont: yeah, that is pretty damning evidence here. No one who's been here over a year should be editing like that. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 03:44, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
This user is now blocked for sockpuppetry. JACKINTHEBOXTALK 13:17, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Meatpuppetry at Spygate from r/The_Donald[edit]

There has been a spike in editing on Talk:Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump). It is complicated to summarize, but Starship.paint has found that it is a meatpuppetry campaign courtesy of r/The_Donald. Also pinging BullRangifer, Soibangla, Objective3000, Someguy1221. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Muboshgu - I'd like to correct that description. What I found is that r/the_donald recently has been featuring, and linking to the Spygate page on Wikipedia, and the posters and commenters have been very displeased that Spygate is being described as a false conspiracy theory. starship.paint ~ KO 05:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Evidence of links from r/the_donald to Spygate page on Wikipedia starship.paint ~ KO 05:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC))
  • Title of thread (this one is new, 7 hours) There is a big argument between Wikipedia editors on "Spygate" here. Clearly some of them suffer from TDS. Quoted comment:
  • "some" Lol Understatement of the century.
  • holy fuck how did I not read further down. That person literally spat in the face of logic and sources. Insane. Fucking insane.
  • Title of thread: [39] In case anyone doubts Don Jr’s tweet about Wikipedia, get a load of the official article on the Spygate scandal. Uncorrected, unrepentant. Quoted comment:
  • Can Wikipedia be blitzed with people making changes?
  • Article is very one sided and doesnt even touch into the intricate connections between Halper...
  • Title of thread: [40] The reason Wikipedia cannot be cited as a credible source. #StopTheBias Quoted comments:
  • I can change it, and I will. Unless it’s blocked. I have an account It’s right saying it has multiple issues
  • It’s no longer a conspiracy theory. It’s conspiracy fact. Fuck Cuckipedia.
  • False conspiracy theory as in proven correct
  • Wikipedia must die.
  • Title of thread: [41] 1984: Wikipedia Edition VERY FAKE NEWS Quoted comments:
  • Time to archive all the edits coming in the next few months. something tells me there will be a lot.
  • Untrustworthy citations were always the biggest issue but now we see that bad actors/editors are a significant issue also.
  • Title of thread: [42] Donald Trump Jr. on Twitter: "Wow this is a big deal, Wikipedia is everywhere and a primary search tool for many. Who wants to bet which side was protected???" Quoted comment:
  • Title of thread: [43] Wikipedia Editors Paid to Protect Political, Tech, and Media Figures DRAIN THE SWAMP Quoted comment:
  • The only evidence you need to know that Wikipedia is complete 1984 Orwellian wetdream: Spygate (Donald Trump conspiracy theory) Someone please archive it so we have complete proof that Wikipedia is fake news bullshit. starship.paint ~ KO 05:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Plus even newer links [44] [45] starship.paint ~ KO 14:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Yes, I opened an SPI at [46] two weeks ago after I received a warning at AN/3 for reverting a bunch of new editors in this article. I suspected they were all coming from somewhere off-Wiki. O3000 (talk) 10:32, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Who cares? The article is bad and more eyes on it are desperately needed. Please don't canvass only the sympathetic editors Muboshgu. Also, you are involved at the article and should not be using your tools. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Mr Ernie: - how is Muboshgu misusing his tools? I wasn’t even aware he was an admin. More eyes aren’t necessarily good when the people coming don’t know how Wikipedia works. Its not good if instead of using reliable sources people use their own definition. It’s good if people follow the rules. It’s bad if people do not follow WP:RS. starship.paint ~ KO 11:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Muboshgu is WP:INVOLVED at the article and used their tools to apply protection here. I never stated this was tool misuse (see the 3rd paragraph of INVOLVED), but in general Muboshgu should not be using admin tools in AmPol topics. That article is in desperate need of more eyes. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Mr Ernie is right. I should have taken the request to WP:RFPP for an uninvolved admin to protect the page. The page became unprotected and a swarm of disruptive editing began and I reacted too quickly. The page needs to be protected, nobody was following WP:BRD, but it should've been someone else to do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Muboshgu: It was the right thing to do. Controlling influx of disruptive edits to an article is part of an admin's job and easily passes WP:INVOLVED exceptions. Any admin would have done the same. If being politically right is the issue, maybe Muboshgu could have asked another admin for a second opinion but there is no way anyone can call this a bad decision. Admins are expected to do what's needed. --qedk (t c) 14:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
We have methods of asking for more eyes. Canvassing in an off-wiki conspiracy thread isn't one. O3000 (talk) 13:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── If there was ever a time when WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS apply, it is now. Comments by Barr are being taken as the final arbiter of truth, even though they were uncertain, off-hand, without evidence, spoken to please saying what pleases his boss, and he's pulled back on what he said. Sheesh! -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:18, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

BLP applies to Barr too, and you've no idea if he said what he said "to please his boss." Barr is the Attorney General of the USA, and made a claim to Congress that he thinks spying occured (he also called it unauthorized surveillance). He said he's investigating whether it was adequately predicated or not. Our articles do not reflect this information. Now I know you hold strong opinions of editors who support Trump, but it just might be possible that everyone has a bias that impacts their editing (or reporting), and even our precious "RS" may have gotten some aspects of this story wrong. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Barr presented no evidence. He gave an opinion and acknowledged he couldn't back it up. We have nothing to go on but the reliable sources that reaffirm that nothing untoward has come to light. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Mr Ernie, did you really just say "even our precious "RS" may have gotten some aspects of this story wrong."? And what if they did? What are YOU going to do about it? How would you propose to rectify that situation? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, I'm still waiting for an answer. I really get tired of experienced editors who show a disregard for our RS policy. We follow that policy, and we only change our content when the RS change. We don't make changes, especially a total reversal of a whole article (in this case) based on weak information, poor sources, or the hem hawing utterances of believers in conspiracy theories, even when they are Barr and Trump. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
@BullRangifer: my apologies for not answering yet and making you wait a few hours - I made some new friends and was playing the guitar with them. It was great - we nailed a playthrough of All Right Now (but nobody comes close to Paul Kossoff's complete mastery of vibrato) and I had a TON of fun, even if we didn't all speak the same language. Regarding your question, there is nothing I will or can do to go against what RS choose to write on the topics I am interested in. I hope I have not made such changes to any articles. I'm not as good a writer as you, and therefore limit my participation mainly to talk pages of contentious topics, hoping that the more talented editors can use my comments to help improve articles. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I understand. Glad you had a good time. Music is important. I don't know how I'd live without it. Life would be poorer without it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
BullRangifer, would you believe it if I said I actually got goosebumps playing the lead to the Allman Bros. song Blue Sky, harmonizing with another guitarist with whom I could not speak? I do not understand how those young guys from Florida created such an incredible sound that I'm enjoying nearly 50 years later. Let's all take a minute and listen to a favored song or two. Before I was 24, I always thought of what I'd accomplish by the time I was Duane Allman's age when he died. Now that I'm far past, I reflect on that young man's short life and the truly priceless gift he gave to so many. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I can definitely believe it. (Blue Sky) I was a young stoner when I bought Eat a Peach, and we spent many hours enjoying the talents of the Allman Brothers. What a trip! His death came as a huge shock. What a loss. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 23:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

439 posts by 53 users in the last three days[edit]

Talk:Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump) has had 439 posts by 53 users in the last three days. That's more that the talk page saw between the creation of the article and four days ago. At what point do we do something about this?

Now I know that the usual easy answer is some sort of temporary protection, but if an admin wants to be a white knight and do a bit of extra work, it might be worthwhile to look at the contributors and apply some WP:NOTHERE blocks. A lot of them have been disruptive on other politics pages, and it looks like it would be pretty easy to identify the few veteran users trying to deal with the flood and the meatpuppets from r/The Donald who are disrupting multiple articles. Or should I compile that list myself and post it at WP:SPI? --Guy Macon (talk)

Good point. Not only are a number of newcomers NOTHERE, but several of the regulars who attack RS and push conspiracy theories need topic bans. Their lack of competence is quite evident because they show they are more interested in pushing fringe theories found in unreliable sources than in following policy. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, Guy. I agree completely. Allow me to now name a few of the accounts that I suspect of meatpuppetry, for any white knight UNINVOLVED admins:
Justncase80 (talk · contribs), account inactive for three years prior to this
KeithCu (talk · contribs), account inactive for a little over a year prior to this
Tigerman325 (talk · contribs), account inactive for two years prior to this
SIPPINONTECH (talk · contribs), new account, no edits except the Spygate talk page, where the user acknowledged coming here from r/The_Donald[47], this user has been more upfront and constructive than the others I think
Moefuzz (talk · contribs), account inactive for almost a year
I apologize if I made any errors, but this is suspicious behavior. I will now notify these accounts on their talk pages. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
To clarify, I was not solicited to come here, and I am not here to "sway consensus." I check Reddit occasionally and did see discussion about this article. However, I didn't decide to create an account and edit simply because I saw a post on Reddit - I am here to correct egregious factual errors in the Spygate article irrespective of how I found the article. Moreover, I believe that the tone and tenor of Muboshgu's commentary on the talk page betrays a profound political bias, and I feel it is more than a little inappropriate for this user to seek administrative punishment against me for suggesting revisions in the talk page in full transparency and good faith. I do not believe I have violated any rules but will respect the Administrator's judgment in any case. I have not even tried to edit the article itself - just provide factual evidence and feedback in the talk page. Happy to answer any further questions. SIPPINONTECH (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
SIPPINONTECH, for the record, I appreciate your forthrightness on why you came to Wikipedia. I am not seeking administrative punishment against you, but rather we are discussing the influx of new editors. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I have a similar story to SIPPINONTECH. I am a real person who doesn't have the need to edit or log into wikipedia very often even though I use it almost every day. When I saw this page and the discussions that were happening it frustrated me, so I commented but I was not solicited to do so. It appears that there is a pretty significant bias in play for those who are guarding this page from editing and I think the comments you are seeing here go beyond being rationalized away by accusing people of meatpuppetry but, rather, there are actual issues with the accuracy of the page. justncase80 (talk) 14:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I have made the EC protection indefinite and am invoking ACDS post 1932 American Politics. Muboshgu technically should have asked someone else to protect the page, but his reasoning was sound. No harm no foul. I have also logged the protection at WP:AEL. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • The EC protects the article, but does nothing about the 439 posts in 3 days on the talk page. The obvious meatpuppets are disrupting many other pages as well. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

This topic has been featured heavily in the news these past few days. Folks interested in learning more naturally come to Wikipedia, and perhaps are surprised that the article is somewhat lacking. They make an account to then help, improve, and participate in Wikipedia. This should be encouraged, not stifled by posts such as this at ANI. If misbehavior occurs, deal with it. Otherwise, WP:BITE applies. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what meatpuppetry is, but no one tells me when to contribute to Wikipedia. I decided to post on the SpyGate talk page because it's amazing to me how there is plenty of publicly available evidence that Trump was spied on, (including a book titled SpyGate) and so it seems unbelievable Wikipedia still calls it a false conspiracy theory. Now, the author of the book (a former cop and secret service agent!) is called a "clown" by longtime Wikipedia editors, and his word is "not to be trusted." That slander keeps them ignorant.
As I wrote on the talk page, imagine if Bush 43 had been wiretapping Obama, and Wikipedia refused to acknowledge it, and only called it a conspiracy theory. You would think you are living in crazy times. The other amazing thing is how many people here are implicitly defending unauthorized surveillance (by saying it didn't happen) and defending the politicization and weaponization of the US intelligence community. The US federal government has committed crimes, and Wikipedia defends democracy by saying it didn't happen. KeithCu (talk) 21:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @KeithCu: - if you trust Dan Bongino (and even want to use him as a reliable source), you’re probably massively misinformed. Being a former Secret Service agent doesn’t make you reliable. See my example below (the green box) starship.paint ~ KO 22:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • You appear to be implying that Obama was wiretapping Trump, and several other crimes. There is not even a hint of evidence of any such. Please don't bring conspiracy theories here. In any case, this is not the place for content disputes. O3000 (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Here's the example on how Bongino is unreliable. starship.paint ~ KO 23:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

.The Russia investigation started with information on George Papadopoulos. This has been confirmed twice, first by Republican staff for the House Intelligence Committee in Feburary 2018, [48] then second by Republican congressmen on the House Intelligence Committee in April 2018. [49] However, Dan Bongino, after these two confirmations, makes the opposite assertion in March 2019: not George Papadopoulos, but the Steele dossier, [50] [51] [52] [53] and doubles down at least 4 (!) times. [54] [55] [56] [57] Multiple reliable sources have written in fact checks that the Steele dossier wasn’t the origin, it was George Papadopoulos. Factcheck.org Politifact Associated Press Washington Post Bongino by goes against other RS while never once acknowledges the strongest counterargument for this statement of fact - the House Intelligence Committee which was controlled by Republicans, allies of Trump. Clearly, Bongino has no basis in reality regarding Trump, either by way of ignorance of the House Intelligence Committee, or simply lying about the situation. starship.paint ~ KO 23:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I have blocked The3taveren as an obvious sock and KeithCu as clearly NOTHERE. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 19:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@Feezo: why did you block KeithCu? Please clarify. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Defending Breitbart as a reliable source and IDHT advocating of conspiracy theories are both clear evidence of NOTHERE. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 18:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
All I see is a few talk page edits and 0 mainspace edits. That is not enough for any IDHT territory, what I do see is then your bias clouding your judgment. You don't get a NOTHERE block from a talk page discussion. This was a bad block. And you might want to check the talk page, there is currently a RM discussion there and calling it a conspiracy theory is indeed up for discussion. You should unblock. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
@Feezo: - Agree with Sir Joseph that this block is unwarranted. There was no disruption warranting an indef. Talk page discussion was ongoing and progress has been made. You've come completely out of nowhere - before April you have basically no posts to the administrator noticeboards. You shouldn't be coming in and dropping blocks like this. You've barely even edited in the last 6 years. Why are you still an administrator? Mr Ernie (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Indef block is a bit much, but it's plainly obvious that KeithCu is incapable of making useful contributions to any discussion of American politics. At the very least a topic ban was inevitable if he kept going. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:28, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
That's for the community to decide if and when the time comes. This was actually a bad block. NOTHERE is just an essay; it is not part of blocking policy. When admins (who know what they're doing and have been active any time in recent years, not popping back in from the Age of Dinosaurs) mention NOTHERE in a block rationale, they have other rationales that are within WP:BLOCK, and are using NOTHERE as a shorthand. In this case, there is no actual block rationale, since nothing disruptive was happening. And this is a topic area under WP:AC/DS, so it's actually twice as easy to come up with a legit rationale that it would be normally. So, complete FAIL as a blocking decision. (I predict nothing will be done about it, because this site has become completely dominated by leftists. I say that as someone on the left of most issues, too; just being honest.)  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  23:33, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Yeah, these comments by KeithCu in his unblock requests and edit summaries are the opposite of reassuring. I'm getting a strong sense of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS here. starship.paint ~ KO 11:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

  • [58]What's good is it gives me new material to talk about in my updated Wikipedia chapter
  • [59]I would investigate the agenda of people to refuse to admit that a mountain of evidence exist, even while more comes out every day. My agenda is the truth, apparently we are in a tiny minority on the politics portion of Wikipedia, and banning me is easier than fixing Wikipedia falsehoods.
  • [60]Why are the media covering up for crimes? Are Wikipedia's "reliable sources" dangerously wrong sometimes? I would hope that the people and companies who lied to us about SpyGate and said it never happened should have their Wikipedia pages reflect, with some sort of Scarlet Letter. End of quotes from KeithCu. starship.paint ~ KO 11:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
@Starship.paint:There's a difference between "righting great wrongs" and maintaining WP:NPOV. There is evidence to suggest that the FISA system was abused. Fox news, which is considered a reliable source per WP:RSP, has reported on the abuse of the FISA system/court. Specifically, that have reported on the fact that the FISA court was lied to about the funding behind some of the evidence it was presented. This may or may not have affected the issuance of the FISA warrant, and one would have to defer to WP:RSOPINION before drawing a conclusion from this. However, to completely ignore the sources documenting how the FISA court was lied to would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Based on the article's title, and Keith's assertions, it would seem that the article is completely ignoring evidence that "SpyGate" is not merely a conspiracy theory. Likewise, suggesting a correction to the article is not "righting a great wrong". As far as the RS status of breitbart is concerned, I agree that that should not be discussed here or on the "SpyGate" talk page. Instead, if Keith really wanted to try to get its status changed, they should open a discussion over at a subpage of WP:RSP (I don't recall the exact page off the top of my head). However, the problem with dismissing Keith's claims offhand due to his reliance on breitbart is that FISA "misleading" was documented by Wikipedia's RSs too. Hence, to claim that the FISA court was lied to is not WP:FRINGE or WP:OR, rather, it is a fact that should be noted in the article per WP:DUEWEIGHT and WP:RS. Also, why does it matter that Keith took a wiki-break for a few months/years? I would suggest that we should assume good faith and that we should not attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance (Hanlon's razor). If they made a mistake after their absence it is more probable (to me at least) that they merely forgot some of the rules rather than that they remembered all the rules but decided to break them. Also, per WP:BITE, ignorance of the rules can be a valid defense. Was he even officially warned, or did we jump to an indef ban? Either way, I fail to see how the indef ban on Keith is justified. ElectroChip123 (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I’m not sure if FISA is relevant to the Spygate article as is, which refers to the May/June 2018 allegations. As I have pointed out to other editors, they might be better off creating “Allegations of improper surveillance of the 2016 Trump presidential campaign”, because clearly we are arguing on different matters. Anyway, the rest of your post from Also, why does it matter that... does not seem to be a relevant reply to me. I never argued for KeithCu’s block on those rationale. I merely point out that some of his post-block comments are concerning. starship.paint ~ KO 16:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
@Starship.paint: aren't the "Allegations of improper surveillance of the 2016 Trump presidential campaign” and Spygate one and the same? Sorta like how the "Special Council Investigation... 2017" is related to / another name for "the Mueller Investigation"? As far as I am aware, the spying allegations are based on the (presumed) "improper surveillance of the 2016...", and thus one "article" would actually be a subsection of the other. I never argued for KeithCu’s block on those rationale. This is true. I had meant to ping all the editors involved (some of whom used that rationale). Likewise, I apologize if it looked like I was singling you out for that, that was not my intention. ElectroChip123 (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @ElectroChip123: unfortunately your definition of Spygate has failed to get much traction among reliable sources. So the thing is, you have to find sources explicitly defining Spygate in that way. starship.paint ~ KO 00:12, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the issue is that this shows the bias of Wikipedia. Comey himself says that there was a FISA warrant and "intelligence gathering" on Trump's campaign, but doesn't call it spying. Barr says, that is what the definition of spying is, using intelligence to gather information. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Sir Joseph: - I fail to see how that is a relevant reply to my post. Is this a general comment? starship.paint ~ KO 14:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, it's a talk-page, not mainspace. There was 0 mainspace edits,and even 0 talkpage edits that were disruptive. This was a bad block by an administrator who came out of nowhere and just placed a terrible block. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Sir Joseph:You are right, this is clearly a bad block. The editor acted in good faith and did not intentionally violate any policies (and its very questionable whether he violated any policies at all). He got blocked for suggesting that Breitbart was not a conspiracy theory website. Note that he didn't even try to incorporate it in an article. I know everyone wants to pretend that wikipedia doesn't have a political bias problem, but it does and we have several administrators that strongly enforce it by banning or blocking editors.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── I have been engaging KeithCu on his talk page, mainly because I do believe he will be unblocked, and thus would like to help him better conform to policy. In my view KeithCu has a long way to go regarding following WP:V in the vein of WP:VNT, as well as WP:RS. If you will read the following quotes: starship.paint ~ KO 01:42, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

  • [61]The media saying 100 times he wasn't spied upon isn't evidence of anything.
  • [62]If 100 people say I've never been shot, but I have a bullet hole in my arm, which evidence is more definitive? I realize Wikipedia is in a tough position right now, but that the media said 100 times Trump wasn't spied upon means there are (probably) two scandals.
  • [63] Here for example is the first NYT article which discussed the spying... it doesn't mention the two-hop rule ... For that, you have to go to a source which is unreliable by Wikipedia standards: https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/256333/fisas-license-to-hop ... Even then the big media tell the truth about SpyGate, they carefully avoid telling the most scandalous facts. These are quotes from KeithCu. starship.paint ~ KO 01:42, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── This shows a lack of competence, which is natural and common for new users, but unforgivable in more experienced users. The hard part follows next: Will he accept the advice from more experienced users, or persist in righting what he sees as great wrongs, and pushing for his version of truth over verifiable RS, etc? His reactions will determine whether he should be unblocked or not. If he refuses to drop his reliance on Breitbart and such sources, he will likely never be suited to edit controversial and political article. He must show evidence of a positive learning curve. The quotes above are not promising. Sad.

He also seems to think that we should allow discussions on talk pages which show reliance on unreliable sources, as long as they are not used in actual edits. That's not true. An editor who shows ignorance or disdain for our RS policy is showing that they are not competent to edit controversial and political articles. They need to learn to not read or use such poor sources. They are showing that they are more interested in advocating fringe ideas and conspiracy theories than advocating what is found in RS. The two types of advocacy are very different. The first is literally forbidden here, while the second is required per policy, and this is usually happening on talk pages. Such editors may sometimes be rescued by using topic bans, rather than complete banishment. I'm not sure that would work in this case because of the strong nature of his statements above. NOTHERE seems to describe the situation well. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

A conspiracy theory cannot be false[edit]

Not the place for this discussion. This is not the Peanuts baseball team. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:15, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

According to Wikipedia, a conspiracy theory is [...] the unnecessary assumption of conspiracy when other explanations are more probable. If we only have 'rather improbable', we don't have false, because false would at least requires a 0 probability. Don't start saying that Wikipedia is not a Reliable Source about the Truth©: Wikipedia is a Reliable Source about how to parse words and terms used in a Wikipedia discussion. If someone was saying "Trump launched Spygate as a good designed campaign to do such and such", this could be a conspiracy theory. Because another explanation comes to mind, i.e. "Trump launched Spygate due to an irrepressible compulsion to tweet something, day after day". And then we can weight the sources to say which is the more probable explanation. Saying "Stefan Halper was approaching the Trump campaign advisers in order to learn how to win a presidential campaign" would be a conspiracy theory, because the odds are very low indeed, whatever could be the alternate hypothesis (remember: at that time, Democrats were so sure to win). But saying that "... to spy the Trump's campaign" is a conspiracy theory would need --by definition-- to provide an alternate, more probable, explanation. To sell chocolates, may be ? When we have a "low quality assertion", it suffices to say so, because this can be backed by sources. Pldx1 (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Pldx1, by definition, any theory is more probable than one for which the probability is zero. Ergo, you are wrong in the first—though ignoring what you quoted for two of your own words is not a good start. In the second, Wikipedia discussions preferentially draw definitions from projectspace pages, not mainspace articles, i.e. Wikipedia:Notability and not Notability and we note that such definitions may differ. As for when a lack of conspiracies can be considered more probable, I draw you to Occam's razor, and the more specific Hanlon's razor. Alpha3031 (tc) 14:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
When you draw at random a number x among the set of all the integers, the probability of "x=3" is exactly 0. This doesn't imply that "x=3" is false. If you obtain "x=3", this doesn't prove that the process was wrong, but if you obtain ten 3 in a row, this is no more a conspiracy theory to guess that the process was not uniformly random. And here, if one only want to say that, one more time, this Trump emitted a "low quality assertion", it suffices to tell it that way, since this is provable, and avoid the "conspiracy theory" formulation that is not provable, and only leads to never ending and useless discussions. Pldx1 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Pldx1 Technically the probability "approaches zero", it does not "equal zero". If it was equal to zero, then over an infinite amount of draws, x would never be equal to 3. But 3 is in the set of integers, and one is selecting an integer at random. Thus it is possible that x = 3. Hence, we have arrived at a paradox: x can be equal to 3, because 3 is an integer, but x cannot ever be 3 because the probability of that event is 0. This is a contradiction, and given that 3 is an integer, by modus ponens we have that the assumption that probability x = 3 is zero is false. ElectroChip123 (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear User:ElectroChip123. Technically, you don't understand what could be a probability. Proof: you are equating "the probability of this event is equal to 0" with "this event is impossible". And thus, you were right when not signing your post. Pldx1 (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear Pldx1, a probability of zero means an event is impossible. Furthermore, the chance of picking a 3 at random from the set of integers is not zero. It's infinitesimally small, but it's not zero. Limit wise, one could say that the probability of the event approaches zero but one cannot conclude that the probability is zero. ElectroChip123 (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Also, I intended to sign my post, but probably forgot to because I was responding to multiple things at the same time. I have now fixed that mistake. ElectroChip123 (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
I've seen "false conspiracy theory" come up so many times in other articles, and it is correct that there is no such thing as a false conspiracy theory. At the heard, a conspiracy theory is a theory about how something happened or the like, so it can be accepted, or it can be disproven or rejected, but it can't be false because there's no "truth" aspect of the theory. Even in the case where there's a mountain of evidence that clearly shows that none of the events were even possible, that's not saying the theory was false, it was just wholly disproven. A conspiracy theory can be built on false information but still as a theory, it's not "true" or "false", but "accepted" or "rejected" or some other state like that. --Masem (t) 16:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
I am genuinely confused as to what is going on here. Let's accept these premises for the sake of argument: (1) the idea that NASA faked the moon landing(s) is a conspiracy theory; and (2) the moon landing(s) actually occurred. Surely said conspiracy theory is then "false?" We're straying a bit too close to Karl Popper here, but it seems to me that some conspiracy theories are falsifiable, even if some are not? Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear User:Dumuzid. (1) is what is called a fringe theory, i.e. a set of assertions that largely diverts from the mainstream corpus, and whose supporters only form a small minority. To obtain a conspiracy theory, you have to add an pseudo-explanation using a conspiracy. Example: they have invented all this moon landing story in order to (1) hide the fact that the Earth is flat (2) and then use the money to buy chocolates (or to finance their wars, or what else, there is so large a choice). It is to be noticed that more than often, the terms 'fringe theory' and 'conspiracy theory' are only used to convey a negative opinion, rather suggesting a diagnostic of stupidity or paranoia ... without any other proof than 'I don't like this guy'. Once again, "low quality assertion" is largely more efficient as a characterization. Pldx1 (talk) 22:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Pldx1, I understand, and agree that there are certainly times when "fringe" or "conspiracy" are used as mere pejoratives. However, if we assume my (2) is true, then isn't your conspiracy theory still false, as it is based on something untrue? After all, if I promulgate a conspiracy theory that things fall upward after sundown, and this is done by the government to aid the airline industry, it would seem to me this could be shown false simply by demonstrating that things continue to fall down after sunset. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Dumuzid (talk) 00:04, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
When reliable sources say that something is false, it is not for us to decide that what they really mean is "low quality assertion" or whatever. Wikipedia weights viewpoints based upon their prevalence in reliable sources, not based on our interpretations of existential philosophy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

There's an RfC about this at Talk:Conspiracy theory. Levivich 23:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree 100% that a theory can't be false - no matter how absurd. Any claim about the objective reality is inherently subjective - and hence fallible; you can find more on this on epistemology. Even if RS are unequivocal about the fact that a certain conspiracy theory is highly unlikely or wholly disproven, we still can't conclude that it's false. The better phrasing would be, as mentioned "wholly disproven", "discredited", "rejected", etc.OlJa 00:18, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Oldstone James--while I have a lot of sympathy for your universal skepticism position, I still find it hard to square this with a certain illogical strain of thought. Pizzagate averred that there were illicit activities in the basement of a restaurant which, in fact, has no basement (to Pldx1's taxonomic point, I believe this was supposed to have some sort of explanatory power for political events). Mindful of NorthBySouthBaranof's good point above, that we should not supplant the epistemological positions of reliable sources with our own, I am fine calling at the very least the basement portion of that theory "false," as it is based on about as close as we can get to objective untruth. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:53, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
  • What about tying "false" to "allegation" and tying "discredited" to "conspiracy theory"? starship.paint ~ KO 01:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding an edit to "Mera Joota Hai Japani"[edit]

I need to edit the title page of the Japanese Wikipedia about a song "Mera Joota Hai Japani" as I firmly believe that オイラの靴は日本製,このズボンは英国製,頭の赤い帽子はロシア製 and でも心はインド製 are the incorrect translations of "Mera Joota Hai Japani, Yeh Patloon Inglistani, Sar Pe Lal Topi Rusi, and Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani" and 私の靴が日本語,この ズボン が イギリスタン語,頭 の 赤い 帽子 が ロシア語 and しかし 心 が ヒンドスタン語 are the correct translations of "Mera Joota Hai Japani, Yeh Patloon Inglistani, Sar Pe Lal Topi Rusi, and Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani", so I want to replace the former lyrics with the latter lyrics, but the other few editors are not letting me edit this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.8.250.238 (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately the English and Japanese Wikipedias are completely different things, so unless a ja.wiki admin happens to read this, there's nothing we can do for you here. Black Kite (talk) 08:39, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Stop forum-shopping. You've asked at WP:AN ([64] and [65]), you've asked at WP:DRN ([66]), you've been relentlessly harassing us in #wikipedia-en-help. We are not going to do as you ask, since what you're demanding someone do is replace an accurate translation with a "blind idiot" machine translation. You have repeatedly been pointed to ja.wp and relaated IRC channels yet from all appearances you straight-up refuse to use them (or, more likely, you cannot use them). —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
    I stand corrected. You just revert off adverse responces. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
    One almost has to admire the chutzpah of responding to an accusation of reverting adverse responses by reverting it. —Cryptic 10:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
    Honestly, this guy's starting to torque me off. He's been forum-shopping on here and on IRC for the past week, and his refusal to listen to anyone is such that he's ban-on-sight if he shows up in -en-help (though this is only part of the issue; he also, if on long enough, starts randomly pinging people). I'm fearing that it may ultimately take rangeblocks of his ranges on en.wp and ja.wp to get him to stop this. He's not convincing anyone. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 10:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

You both are wrong my friends,I am not forum-shopping at all,it's true that I've asked at the Administrators' Noticeboard of the English Wikipedia at the Incidents' section to clarify the difference between reviews,and also that I've asked it at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard of the English Wikipedia as you are saying,I am not at all relentlessly harassing you in the Help Channel of the English Wikipedia,Of course you are going to do as I ask,since what I'm demanding someone to do is to replace replace a wrong translation with a translation I created myself,the reason for my not using ja.wp and all related IRC channels is that nobody is there for helping me with this matter,It's not that I straight-up refuse to use them or I simply "cannot" use them when pointed there,so if it stands more likely for you,then improve your "appearances", I might revert off adverse responses,there is no "chutzpah" in responding to such bogus kind of accusations,Finally I'm not starting to torque you off,I've been neither forum-shopping here nor on IRC for the past week,I don't have any refusal to listen to anyone so it's useless to ban me on sight when I'm on the Help Channel of the English Wikipedia,I often start randomly pinging people if on long enough just for getting help regarding this issue,Obviously I am convincing everyone so if you fear that it may ultimately take rangeblocks of my ranges on en.wp and ja.wp to get me to stop this,that is nonsense

"Replace a wrong translation" is an outright lie. Native Japanese speakers at ja.wp have specifically told you the translation you want to put in is gibberish, and your responce to that, as detailed above, is to revert off the rebuttal which explains why your translation is incorrect. And yes, you have been relentlessly pestering -en-help, and the channel operators there can back me up on that, given that they're the ones who have to send you packing because of your continued refusal to listen to anyone who knows what the hell they're saying, your constant reverting of rebuttals to anything you say, and your tendency to mass-ping people if the helpers in channel refuse to jump aat your command. You've had two of your IPs blocked within the past day for editing or reverting people's comments on en.wp pages, you've forced ja.wp to semi-protect the article in question and their non-Japanese-speakers help page as a direct result of your sterile obstinance, and you are ban-on-sight if you show up in -en-help because you refuse to listen to anything us helpers have to say that isn't "How high?" Darklords show more contrition and self-awareness than this, and that isn't a compliment on their part, either. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 07:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
While we're at it, you have also been, on your IPv4 address, reverting off my explanation of the situation at the DRN thread you started. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 08:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
When you find yourself in a hole, the best course of aaction is to stop digging. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 05:04, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Move to close, and block obvious troll Can someone just close this and block the blatant troll who opened it for however long we normally block blatantly NOTHERE trolls/vandals who are editing from IPs and so can't be indeffed? The IP either believes that Google Translate (or whatever) created a better Japanese translation of whatever that text in the lead is than an actual human, despite the text being gibberish, or knows perfectly well that the text is gibberish. Hijiri 88 (やや) 02:21, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
    Based on what I've been seeing IP-wise you'd need rangeblocks on a v4 and one or two v6s, just based off edits made to en and ja. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 03:02, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Close and block, per Hijiri. I don't agree with everything expressed there, but I trust their expertise. Give the IP some time to cool off and consider how they could improve their edits. If that's possible. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

US Highways - Possible sock[edit]

Resolved

Possible sock, they created a hoax article, Interstate 570. Cards84664 (talk) 03:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

User claims to be 2006 December (talk · contribs). Cards84664 (talk) 03:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Here are the userlinks for 2006 December:
Another admission is here in the edit summary: "I'm 2006 December, don't tell Kinu". I suggest User:Jackson Tennessee Rules be blocked as a sock of User:2006 December. The reference to User:Kinu in their edit summary is to the admin who originally blocked 2006 December. Probably this case is too stale for checkuser. EdJohnston (talk) 04:12, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: [67] Cards84664 (talk) 04:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Indefblocked user:Jackson Tennessee Rules. Materialscientist (talk) 04:54, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Repeated problematic edits[edit]

The following user has made in a period of one week several problematic edits on Eurovision Song Contest 2019. I have warned the specific user two times in total, but either they don't look at their talk page or don't understand the warnings. —Dimsar01 Talk ⌚→ 07:00, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Some examples of their edits:

Debi Prasad Misra edit warring on Help:IPA/Sanskrit (again)[edit]

The previous report from a month ago resulted in a short block for User:Debi Prasad Misra. Now, he's edit warring on Help:IPA/Sanskrit again - see [68] or, more specifically, [69], [70] and [71].

More specifically, he keeps reinserting the unneeded dental diacritic, uses an incorrect diacritic to denote voiceless aspiration (⟨ʱ⟩ instead of ⟨ʰ⟩), changes other symbols without consideration for Help talk:IPA/Sanskrit#Redid table and refuses to engage in discussion. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 10:30, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Propose indef block The user has not addressed any of the numerous warnings (see their talk) or the previous block in any way whatsoever and has continued reinstating their reverted edits not just on Help:IPA/Sanskrit but on several other pages. Not once have they written a word in the edit summary or on their own talk, or any talk. Evidently they don't possess the most fundamental ability to WP:ENGAGE required to edit Wikipedia. Nardog (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Kbb2, you need to inform them of this ANI thread. I'll this for you, along with a message beyond the traditional template. Hopefully they'll pay attention to that and address some of their issues here. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 23:01, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Correction: Kbb, my apologies. I just saw your ANI notice to them. It was buried in a previous section though, and while they were likely notified, I still posted an additional one just in case, in its own section. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk)
  • Sweet, they just keep inserting questionable content with absolutely no communication despite our warnings and Symmachus Auxiliarus's repeated notification of this thread and plea to communicate. They're practically begging to be blocked. Nardog (talk) 07:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Oldstone James[edit]

Per the clear consensus below, Oldstone James is indefinitely banned from all articles and edits on the topic of creationism, broadly construed.
There is no particular consensus on when an attempt to remove this restriction might be made, but my advice would be to edit productively in other areas for six to twelve months and then ask for it to be removed at WP:AN.
Oldstone James has self-requested a one–month block, which has been implemented. Some editors have expressed a desire to see him mentored on his return, but I see the consensus for the ban overriding this. Mentoring may still be of benefit, but for now this is up to him. GoldenRing (talk) 12:39, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per the discussion at Answers in Genesis#Lead sentence editing by jps and Roxy the dog, and considering that the previous block and page protection had no effect, I believe that Oldstone James should be topic banned from creationism.

Also see [72][73][74][75][76][77] --Guy Macon (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

This is unbelievable! What have I even done after the block? Even if you don't consider these diffs: [78] [79] self-reverts, which they are (I have simply restored the version before I started editing; here is the lede section as of 11 April: [80])), I'm only on two reverts in 24 hours. Furthermore, please consider the context of the situation: jps and Roxy the dog were constantly restoring a version which not only had no consensus but also wasn't even discussed on the talk page, amid a month-long discussion concerning the lede section. Even so, I at first tried to find a compromise ([81]). Only after my compromise was reverted did I restore the status quo.
Also, please consider the blocking of user:Roxy the dog, who launched numerous personal attacks on me ("Would you like me to recommend an optician for your much needed eyesight test?", "Grow a thicker skin or fuck off" as some examples) and appears WP:BATTLEGROUND on me, as this is not the first time he reverts my edits with no explanation. This time in particular, though, he appeared to restore an edit with no consensus. OlJa 16:09, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
That's not what a self revert is. A self revert is when you make one edit, then you make another edit that undoes your first edit. When you make the same edit multiple times, that's edit warring, not self reverting. You appear to understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines just fine when is suits you. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
This is exactly what I had done. I had first introduced an edit; then it was modified; I reverted my initial edit and hence restored the version prior to it. Your last sentence is pure gold, as it sums up your behaviour better than I could have ever put it myself. Apparently, Wiki policies only apply when they suit you. WP:CONSENSUS only applies when it's me editing. WP:SYNTH only applies when it's anyone but you editing. WP:BRD only applies when it works against me.OlJa 16:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
If that's what you did then it's not a self-revert, but a revert of both yourself and the person modifying your edit. This isn't any comment on the rights or wrongs of what you did, which I haven't looked into, but simply a clarification of what "self-revert" means, which does not include reverting anyone else's edits along with your own. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger: Thanks for clarifying, I didn't know this, although this rule seems kind of silly: getting blocked for 3RR for reverting your own edit which was later corrected (e.g. after identifying some possible problems with it) seems very unreasonable to me.OlJa 16:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Actually it makes complete sense. The only edit you "own" is any edit you make. If someone else makes an edit, that's not your edit. It's someone else's edit. If I make an edit and it's reverted by person A and then person B comes along and reverts to my version the latest reversion is not my edit. It's the person B's edit. I cannot self revert anymore than I could when person A first reverted me. I could revert person B's edit but that's reverting person B's edit, it's not reverting myself since my edit was already reverted. If person A and person B engage in a 10 revert war in the next 1 hour, I am only responsible for my first edit. I'm not responsible for person A and person B seriously violating 3RR. Likewise when someone else has modified my edit, any reversion of their changes is not a self revert since it's not my edit. If it's possible to self revert without affecting their changes then I can simply self-revert, but if it's not than any revert is not simply a self revert since I'm changing someone else's edit. Otherwise we'd have the ridiculous situation where I change 1234567890 to 2134567890 and someone else changes it to 3214567890 and so on until it's 0987654321 and I come along and change it back to 1234567890 and claim all I did is self revert which is clearly nonsense. Nil Einne (talk) 05:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
This is a weird one, people. I don't know why Oldstone James doesn't want to collaborate. It seems like maybe he is suffering a bit from WP:OWN? I actually don't know what to make of it. jps (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
No, I did collaborate... until you simply reverted one of my compromise edits. In hindsight, you did add in some pieces of my edit, but most of your errors still remained. Remember that your edits had zero consensus, so I was in full right to restore the status quo. We eventually managed to work our versions into a satisfactory compromise. A better question to ask would be why Guy Macon, Roxy the dog, and some other editors stubbornly refuse to collaborate at all costs, reverting every new edit done to the page and refusing to give explanations. WP:OWN would be a very appropriate explanation for this type of behaviour, I believe.OlJa 16:52, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
On 29 March 2019 I told Oldstone James:
"You have two choices. [1] create a specific proposal and see what the consensus is for your change, or [2] Go ahead and assume that your change is OK without checking, make the change, and get blocked. Most administrators have a very low tolerance for someone who edits after edit-warring protection expires without a clear survey of participants asking if they object to that specific change. When in doubt, ask. If you have no doubts, ask anyway."[82]
He chose #2, and as I predicted, was blocked for it. After the block expired he went right back to the same behavior that got him blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:28, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I note, also, that Oldstone James wikistalked Roxy the Dog to fascism. [83], [84]. It's surprising to me that he is then turning around and citing WP:BATTLEGROUND above. jps (talk) 16:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Important clarification: I was not wikistalking; this was a coincidence. I had edited on related pages in the past, too.OlJa 17:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm afraid that is a behavioural slam dunk James, sorry. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 17:47, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Really, Oldstone James? You had never edited Fascism before. And purely by coincidence — not by following Roxy there — you reverted a Fascism edit by Roxy, after consulting the book sources for the sentence. That happened only 11 minutes after you posted a long argument on Talk:Answers in Genesis in which you attacked Roxy ("out of nowhere yet comes Roxy the dog and reverts my self-revert..!"). Is that what you're saying? Bishonen | talk 09:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC).
Yep. When I edit on Answers in Genesis, it is usually because I am looking something up on Wikipedia and, using the opportunity, check my watchlist (AiG was one the most recent entries at that time, following an edit by jps). At the time, I was looking up information on WWIII, which eventually got me to WWII and hence fascism. I had edited on articles related to WWIII and WWII before (MAD as one example, there are others). I must admit that seeing that the most recent change was made by user:Roxy the dog encouraged me to check into what the edit actually was, but I was not in any way houding the user. Please assume good faith, and that's what my edit was. I myself was very surprised to see the same user who had just reverted my edit on AiG was also the user who made the most recent change to the page I was then viewing.OlJa 11:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban from the topic of creationism as proposer. Recent comments by Oldstone James have made it clear that he intends to continue to try to get his way through reverts rather than through discussion and consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Note I restored the above !vote by Guy Macon, after it was deleted by Oldstone James with the edit summary of "Not sure you can vote on your own proposal". Paul August 00:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
My apology. This has previously been done to me a couple of times, so I assumed it was within my right's to do - which, in hindsight, I absolutely shouldn't have done. Once again, I apologise for this edit.OlJa 00:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Weak support mostly because of the historic problems combined with the fact this is a contentious topic but the editor seems to lack the most basic WP:competence given their claims above that reverting someone else's changes along with their own counts as a simple self revert. I think the editor needs to edit less contentious areas until they understand better how wikipedia works. Nil Einne (