Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive213

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Magonaritus and sockpuppetry[edit]

The person who registered the Magonaritus (talk · contribs) account has been causing disruptions, on and off, at Upper Canada College and the relevant talk page for over a year. He/she has used a series of both IP and registered sockpuppets to influence the outcome of discussions on article content and format at talk, generally in an abrasive, uncooperative manner; all-together violating WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:AGF, WP:CIV, WP:NPA, WP:NLT, WP:NOT#SOAP, WP:VAND, WP:POINT, and, of course, WP:SOCK, leading to edit wars and the page being locked. Evidence strongly points to sockpuppetry; such evidence and connections have been outlined here. A request for checkuser was already deemed unnecessary. Could an admin please look at this case and decide whether the relevant accounts should be blocked? --G2bambino 00:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Ivan Kricanci[edit]

Ivan's second account Rts_freak was blocked indefinitely and he was strongly warned by AnonEMouse. You can see that here: Ivan Kricancic - sock puppet. Ivan had second account which he created in order to nominate Bosniak-related pictures for deletion providing false information about the authors. He is an ethnic Croat, so he created the second account presenting himself to be an ethnic Bosniak who doesn't speak Bosnian, because he is from Australia. According to his user page (original user page) he hates Bosniaks, and makes funny of them. So his "ethnic Bosniak" account was blocked and he was warned. I noticed similar behaviour on Bosniak-related topics:

Here is another earlier case that proves this, just compare his address and his edit in his original user page.

Here are some examples about his Bosniak-image obsession, when he was logged in:

(It should be noted that he first nominated those pictures for deletion)

And here is an example how he put false information when he was not logged in, about the Bosniak-related picture in order to nominate it for deletion:

And here is an example when he promoted his ideas using his second blocked account, Rts_freak:

The worst thing is that he wrote lies about other users who donated pictures to Wikipedia. He said:

This image was unlikely to have been taken by Asim Led. He has a history of providing dubious sources, and lying about source info. Impropper licence. Since the image is probably unfree, it is also missing a fair use rationale.

Now, I want to show you few edits, just about Bosniaks and Bosnian language, he really hates them, when he was not logged in:

and when he was logged in:

There are so many examples, but the best thing is to look again the evidence here Ivan Kricancic - sock puppet when Ivan was blocked earlier. Emir Arven 00:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone tried to change my password[edit]

Resolved: Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 02:15Z

I got an email from Wikipedia, saying someone had changed my password. The text is (removed - standard text Quarl (talk))

I've changed my password, just in case, but I wanted to report this in case others have been affected as well. Kerowyn Leave a note 00:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question is located in the e-mail notice:

If someone else made this request, or if you have remembered your password and you no longer wish to change it, you may safely ignore this message. Your old/existing password will continue to work despite this new password being created for you.

This happens fairly often, especially in disputes. Just ignore it. --210physicq (c) 00:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Emir Arven (talk · contribs) - Some help needed[edit]

Hello people. Can I please get someone to help me with Emir Arven? Myself and this user have had disputes in the past, and both of us have been blocked as a result of personal attacks against each other. Our last dispute was a result of this edit summary. I then calmly started a discussion with the user about why they would falsely accuse me like that, but he just turned hostile straight away. The user then started provoking me some more, and that's when we started an exchange of personal attacks. I was blocked for 72 hrs for personal attacks, and he was blocked for 2 weeks, as he is a repeat offender. After his block expired, things cooled down, and I haven't heard anything from him so far. But, not ten minutes ago, Emir Arven has restarted with his provocative and offensive edits/behaviour (see here, here, and here. I am asking if an administrator (or maybe more) could step in, and tell the user to stop falsely accusing, stop provoking, and maybe tell him to read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. I would also like all the personal attacks this user has made against me on his talk page and elsewhere be removed, in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Please help, because when I'm in situations like these, I can't help but retaliate, and that would just result in bad results for me. Anyway, help! KingIvan 11:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to say this is totally false. This user, Ivan Kricancic was warned earlier by AnonEMouse because of his sockpuppet past. You can see that here: Ivan Kricancic - proven sock puppets.

Here is conclusion about that

Case proven. Besides common interests, origins, and residences, they both edit the exact same deletion disputes minutes after each other, with the same opinions, and even same misspellings (it's). If they aren't the same person, they are brothers editing from the same computer.

  • 04:52, September 28, 2006 Ivan_Kricancic Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 September 27 * 04:58, September 28, 2006 Rts_freak Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 September 27 [4] * 00:33, September 29, 2006 Rts_freak Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 September 29 [5]
  • 00:37, September 29, 2006 Ivan_Kricancic Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 September 29 Note their identical rationale for keeping fair use images.
  • 11:40, December 1, 2006 Ivan_Kricancic Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Petula Shaw-Dennis [7]
  • 11:43, December 1, 2006 Rts_freak Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Petula Shaw-Dennis [8] Note that this was Rts_freak's only edit for 3 days before and 6 days after - he logged on, wrote "Delete - Per nom. I mean, come on." in an AfD, and logged off for six more days.

Blocking Rts freak, strongly warning Ivan Kricancic not to do that again. --AnonEMouse (squeak)

I have found new evidence that he still continues his sockpuppet behaviour, so I told him that I would report him if he continued:
He told me once: Whenever I see an edit made by a fanatical Bosniak user, I will be sure to include your user name in the edit summary., and immidiately he went to Srebrenica Genocide and Alija Izetbegović articles to provoke. He didn't read the articles, but he reverted it immediately in order to provoke. I asked him about IP address and he didn't answer me. But continued to provoke. Here is another earlier case that proves this, just compare his address and his edit58.165.126.17.
There he goes again - twisting people's words and taking it out of context to try to turn the argument in his favor. The edit where I said the above can clearly be seen as a response to him not aplogising, provoking me some more, and if I acted on my words, it would have been me doing to him, what he has done to me. As for teh IP address, I was the one who even gave him the WHOIS link above - he did not start with a question about the IP - I started that discussion with this edit, where I sarcastically tell him that the anon could not be me, as I live hundreds of kilometers away from where it's IP is lcoated. Emir either did not notice this, ignored it, or just plain and simple, does not understand English. Even after answering his "question" numerous times, he still does not seem to understand or does not want to understand. Emir has only come to the English Wikipedia to provoke, attack and spread his POV - that's what I hate about certain non native English speakers who edit en.wikipedia; a lot of them only come here to spread propaganda and lies. KingIvan 06:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ivan Kricancic[edit]

  • Code letter: C
So he came here, as he did before to talk lies about me, because I found more facts about his sockpuppet role: said I will report him if he continues, I didn't insult him. And the others will decide about my accusation. Emir Arven 13:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Report on Emir[edit]

Now I must say, creating sockpuppet pages with absolutely no proof or evidence is in very bad taste. These pages must be deleted until your unfounded accusations that came out of nowhere prove true - which won't happen because you are a perennial liar. This whole thing started because of a provocation by Emir, and now Emir just will not stop with the attacks, lies and falsifications. I am yet again asking that a good admin step in, and remove all the personal attacks/falsifications/provocations directed against me by User:Emir Arven. He cannot hide under the guise of doing good for Wikipedia with personal attacks like this - which translated means

Ustašoids in action

I want to warn you, that user Ivan Kricancic, look at his user page,in his mad fanatism goes from one picture related to Bosnia to another, and suggests their deletion. Often he does that unsigned: I know it is hard to deal with assholes, but the moron is sick and in this manner he had deleted a lot of articles about Srebrenica also.

This is insulting and provocative beyond belief - yet this, and many more attacks like it, have not been removed, and he has not yet been warned or punished for posting the above message numerous times.

Also, notice his block log.

  • 00:32, February 12, 2007 Nishkid64 (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 2 weeks (3RR violation, several personal attacks, longer block as this user has been blocked for PA multiple times.)
  • 00:30, February 12, 2007 Nishkid64 (Talk | contribs) unblocked Emir Arven (contribs) (Extending block.)
  • 11:20, February 11, 2007 Aksi great (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours (3RR on Alija Izetbegović)
  • 03:26, September 11, 2006 Blnguyen (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 72 hours (personal attacks)
  • 21:48, March 6, 2006 DragonflySixtyseven (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 24 hours (need to defuse)
  • 22:11, February 28, 2006 DragonflySixtyseven (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 72 hours (reblocking)
  • 22:09, February 28, 2006 DragonflySixtyseven (Talk | contribs) unblocked Emir Arven (contribs) (had earlier been given shorter blocks)
  • 21:47, February 28, 2006 DragonflySixtyseven (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 72 hours (Mandatory cooling-off period)
  • 18:53, February 26, 2006 Sam Korn (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 24 hours (3RR on Stephen II Kotromanić)
  • 23:37, November 25, 2005 Chris 73 (Talk | contribs) blocked "Emir Arven (contribs)" with an expiry time of 24 hours (3RR on Petar Petrović Njegoš and other articles)

Seven blocks for heavy edit warring, many personal attacks, and rampant incivility.

Now, let's examine some of his edits and edit summaries:

  • A page move which is provocative in many ways to people involved in the article (those who are not "on his side")
  • 2nd edit after his most recent block. Immediately jumps straight back into edit warring, and removes a huge section about a war crimes investigation on the man.
  • A regular victim of his warring. With this edit, he reverts a version that was a compromise version between warring parties, and shows that he is unwilling to compromise.
Also on the same article, this edit which he writes "this is ok", which it simply is not, because he has removed all references to the man being Serb - another example of his racism.
  • 7th Muslim brigade. Another article in which he removes sourced information and edit wars in, so he can try to paint a rosy picture of "his side".
  • This one! Imagine begin the anonymous user, and BAM, out of nowhere some guy just reverts your edits, then goes "Ivan, is that you?".
  • I don't need a link for this one, as the edit is what you see up above there written by him. Reproducing the same attacking and provocative bullshit that he has written about me elsewhere - if that's not an insult, then you can also blow up the Western Wall and expect teh Jews to be happy.

Now consider his editing patterns, his mannerisms and his block log, then take a look at my block log. I was blocked once for vandalizing a real life friend of mine's user page [8] (which was wrong, but in retaliation to this). And my other block was as a result of me making personal attacks against Emir Arven after he provoked, harassed and attacked me. Now make a judgment over which editor is more trustworthy. I will ask again, please delete/remove his personal attacks/provocations/insults, warn the user not to do it, and possibly block him - in my opinion (judging by the numerous blocks, edit wars, slander, personal attacks, insults, provocations, and racism from this user) an indefinite block would suffice, but one of you admins may be more tolerant than I am, so a one or two month block would do if an indef is not made. Please read this, and do something about this vandalistic troll. Thank you. KingIvan 05:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Your report is irrelevant for the case and you are wrong. After you were strongly warned by AnonEMouse: Ivan Kricancic - proven sock puppets, because you pretended to be an ethnic Bosniak in order to push false information about Bosniaks, your second account was indefinitely blocked. Your second "ethnic Bosniak" account which was blocked I just said I would report you if you continue to do this. P.S. When I edit I provide sourceses, my edits are valuable, I don't pretend to be an ethnic Croat in order to push false information about Croats (I am not interested in Croats), and you as a Croat, pretended to be a Bosniak, which was very low, rude and pathetic. Let me remind you what you wrote in your second blocked user page: [9]. You said: Also, articles of particular interest to me are ones concerning Bosnia, as I am an ethnic Bosniak. But, being born and raised in Australia, I suffer from "the curse of the English speakers", that is, It's really hard to learn another language even if you reall want to.. And according to your "interests" and "thoughts" in your original user page it is obvious that you, as a Croat, hate Bosniaks. I think this is not good for your health, because you are young and should enjoy life, not spend your life in lies and hatred. Emir Arven 10:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL at you talking about lies and hatred. You're obviously a racist bigot. And every single one of your edits has actually been disruptive to Wikipedia. Stop propagating your lies. KingIvan 00:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Ivan's userpage may violate WP:USER, WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a soapbox and WP:NPA (is "muslimani" an ethnic slur? I cannot tell). As a personal comment, I would like to point out that that bit about Alexander the Great being "non-Greek" just demonstrates a blatant ignorance of history.--Domitius 10:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying that he is one of the modern Slav Macedonians - we all know that is false; I'm saying that the ancient Macedonians were different people than the ancient Greeks. But we don't need to start a discussion on him here. KingIvan 00:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Domitius, see the Muslims by nationality article. Speaking 'bout WP:USER, WP:NOT and WP:NPA; someone should take a look at User:Ancient Land of Bosoni. --PaxEquilibrium 12:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
HRE, you have to know, when you pretend to belong to an ethnic group which you don't belong, just to take advantage in promoting false information about that ethnic group, because you hate it, then you cannot talk about WP:USER, WP:NOT and WP:NPA. And Ivan's second account was blocked because of that. I think, it was very dishonest act from him. And he continued to do that again although he was strongly warned not to do that. Emir Arven 13:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Emir, grow up. Please learn how to speak English properly or restrict your activities to the Bosnian Wikipedia. Your childish games, personal attacks, rampant incivility, and blatant lies have no place on the English Wikipedia. We both know that you falsely accused me just for the sake of harassing me. Your edits and your mannerisms show that you are a bigot, and even though you have been blocked seven times for your disruptive behaviour, you still don't understand that what you are doing is wrong. The best thing for you all of us is for you to just leave the English Wikipedia. KingIvan 00:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me repeat the summary of this whole situation: Ivan's second account Rts_freak was blocked indefinitely and he was strongly warned by AnonEMouse. You can see that here: Ivan Kricancic - sock puppet. Ivan had second account which he created in order to nominate Bosniak-related pictures for deletion providing false information about the authors. He is an ethnic Croat, so he created the second account presenting himself to be an ethnic Bosniak who doesn't speak Bosnian, because he is from Australia. According to his user page (original user page) he hates Bosniaks, and makes funny of them. So his "ethnic Bosniak" account was blocked and he was warned. I noticed similar behaviour from the above IP addresses on Bosniak-related topics. Here is another earlier case that proves this, just compare his address and his edit in his original user page.

About his Bosniak-image obsession, here are some examples when he was logged in:

(It should be noted that he first nominated those pictures for deletion)

And here is an example how he put false information when he was not logged in, about the Bosniak-related picture in order to nominate it for deletion:

And here is an example when he promoted his ideas using his second blocked account, Rts_freak:

The worst thing is that he wrote lies about other users who donated pictures to Wikipedia. He said:

This image was unlikely to have been taken by Asim Led. He has a history of providing dubious sources, and lying about source info. Impropper licence. Since the image is probably unfree, it is also missing a fair use rationale.

Now, I want to show you few edits, just about Bosniaks and Bosnian language, he really hates them, when he was not logged in:

and when he was logged in:

There are so many examples, but the best thing is to look again the evidence here Ivan Kricancic - sock puppet when Ivan was blocked earlier.

Regarding my behaviour, I didn't break any Wiki rule recently although I was provoked by Ivan. Emir Arven 00:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This is what I'm, talking about - you have, and you still are, accusing me with absolutely no proof/evidence of any kind. You are the one who originally provoked me. You are the one who has been continually using personal attacks against me. You are the one who continues to harass and provoke me. You are the one who has broken numerous Wikipedia policies. You are the one who keeps on bringing up these false accusations. Furthermore, you were not invited to this discussion here because you have proven unable to contribute to a discussion; but ever since you came, this discussion has gone without any admin action because you started behaving in your trade mark fanatic manner, so know one even bothered to look into it. I suggest you just leave me alone from now on. And if you do not stop with your unfounded wild accusations, I will have no choice but to start making these claims against you. KingIvan 03:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Uncivil userbox?[edit]

I came across an entry on a babel userbox that I'm a bit curious about. Which states: This user does not wish to speak or hear dumbass, but is resigned to the necessity of at least understanding it in an environment of massive collaboration.. To me it seems a bit off to be be referring to all your fellow community members as potential dumbasses. It seems to have been put in the template with this code: :UBX/du-1 but I have no idea where to find that. Can anyone offer some insight?--Crossmr 17:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears that the userpage which it is on UBX, is in existence simply to host userboxes. The userbox you refer to, I assume, is here: User:UBX/du-1. The account is an alternate account of METS501. You might try asking that editor about the box. IrishGuy talk 18:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually more interested in whether or not anyone else finds that that type of wording is uncivil, or even a personal attack. It seems to me that it might fall under an improper use of humour.--Crossmr 02:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
As it is, it is not a personal attack, but just uncivil. Now if you dismissed a user by referring to the userbox, that would be another story. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 02:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with it, personally. It's not actually saying that any one person is a dumbass, and I think that most of us would agree that we all have to deal with some dumbasses on occasion (though we would never call them that, of course — but we all think it ;). I don't know, just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. (ec) Oh yeah, definitely agreed with HBC's second point. —bbatsell ¿? 02:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
that is kind of the point of civility. Whether or not I think editor x, or the editors who work on article x, or wikipedians in general are dumbasses, I shouldn't be advertising that.--Crossmr 06:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not saying any of the things you listed, though, it's saying: "Wikipedia is huge, and occasionally you'll run across a dumbass." In my opinion that's not an example of incivility, it's an example of speaking the truth. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. :) I really don't think David was trying to say that Wikipedians in general are dumbasses. —bbatsell ¿? 06:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Princess/pea encounter. Possibly an effective filtering mechanism for anyone who feels personally attacked by what amounts to the statement 'there exist Wikipedians who are dumbasses'. Opabinia regalis 06:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
And don't worry, if you haven't had to try and make sense of someone speaking Dumbass yet, you'll be there soon. (We won't even get into my thoughts on leetspeak...) In all reality though, I don't even see effectively saying "I don't like dealing with dumbasses" as terribly uncivil. Who does like to do that? If the userbox said "This user thinks Someotheruser is a dumbass", it'd be a problem, but it's nothing like that. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 06:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish to discuss an issue[edit]


This issue contains a situation of potentially utmost importance. It you visitthis userpage, you'll get a sense of this...predicament I have trouble describing.HarryisScary 18:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC) HarryisScary (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

There's nothing wrong with the article this. What is your problem? Sandstein 19:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Account is a prank, only contribs are one to the userpage and this AN/I. It's a sock of someone, no doubt. ThuranX 06:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Pete_K (talk · contribs)[edit]

This user's behavior has been under review in an Arb comm hearing for some time, but in the last few hours is on a rampage and I believe there is urgency now, and he warrants an immediate temporary ban to stop this deliberate disruption which violates all kinds of WP policies. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education/Review A review of his edits in the last few hours shows that his disruptive editing is very deliberate. Special:Contributions/Pete_K Venado 18:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Withdrawn. WP:User:Pete_K has received 1 week ban from WP:AN3 notice.Venado 03:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Wolfgang Mozart doesn't want to change username[edit]

Thread retitled from "I Love My Name, Please Let Me Keep It".
Resolved: The user has been informed that their username is allowed Ryanpostlethwaite contribs/talk 23:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Im posting here to "beat you to the draw" if you will. My name obviously shares the name of a famous person. But that famous person is now dead. Since I cant be confused with him in real life, Id like to keep this name, as the name Wolfgang is quite common here in Germany.Wolfgang Mozart 23:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Would WP:RFCN be more appropriate for this? Ryanpostlethwaite contribs/talk 23:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suspect that nobody would have noticed it, as long as you weren't editing classical music topics. In any case, you could always add a middle initial—I can't imagine any objection to a User:Wolfgang Q. Mozart.
I'm also a bit surprised that you managed to come here – to WP:AN/I – on your very first Wikipedia edit.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the consensus on RFCN in the past has been for something like a 20 year rule on famous names anyway. The rule itself says "well-known living or recently deceased people", so this is an absolute non-issue considering that 5 December 1791 is by no measure "recent". --Random832 23:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It's been allowed Ryanpostlethwaite contribs/talk 23:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It was never in question, enjoy your name, I like it. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 23:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I just added a middle initial to my username, now theres no reason I cant keep itTerry Q. Schiavo 00:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Above user has been blocked indefinitely as an obvious troll. --Coredesat 00:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Edit conflict, you beat me. Newyorkbrad 00:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:POINT. Twice. Ryanjunk 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the original question, I don't think there's any danger of someone thinking the real Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart rose from his anonymous grave more than 200 years after his demise for the purpose of editing Wikipedia. If that's a problem then I'd better change my own username because Nadezhda Durova expired only 141 years ago. DurovaCharge! 04:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

All of my similarly-named relatives have been deceased for 500 million years or so; am I in the clear? ;) Opabinia regalis 04:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Single-purpose troll?[edit]


Please take a look at User:Rainbowwarrior1976's contributions:

Tha'ts all his edits to the date. Sockpuppet? MaxSem 05:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef, as troll, possible sock of banned user User:Rainbowwarrior1977 Jaranda wat's sup 05:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism incident: two edits, First Red Scare[edit]

I'm reporting two cases of straight-forward vandalism, at: First Red Scare

I'm also asking for information: what is the procedure for reverting multiple edits? Can both be reverted at once? Must they be reverted separately?

What's the simplest procedure? thanks! Richard Myers 05:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You can revert any number of edits - see WP:REVERT. Actually, there was only one case of "vandalism" - an IP vandalized, and another tried to remove the vandalism, but did not revert all of it :P. Yuser31415 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Continuous Problems with User:Rollosmokes[edit]

User:Rollosmokes seems to have a problem with working with other Wikipedia users, He has been making unwaranted reverts and then when questioned about it he becomes very aggressive and eventually gets into long edit wars and leaving aggressive messages on user talk pages including my own (see here) which includes:

"Unless you want to get administration involved once more, stop making the nitpicky changes to the Metromedia article, as you have been doing for the past two days. I promise you that every time you revert to your changes, I will undo them. They aren't necessary, and as I have stated before, the article was FINE before you decided to FIX WHAT WASN'T BROKEN. Rollosmokes 07:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)" and

As a result User:Rollosmokes was suspended for a 24h period by User:Firsfron effective 15:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC), His request to have the ban lifted was denied by User:Sandstein on 19:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC). Following the expiration of he posted another aggressive message on my talkpage which stated:

"Since you insist on making these needless and redundant changes to the article (and are trying to prove a point by doing so), I have once again asked Firsfron to interject. I am also requesting that the Metromedia article be locked and protected from editing until this crap dies down. Rollosmokes 06:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)"

Following that post he was edit blocked again, this time for 48h by User:Sandstein starting on 21:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC), User:Sandstein's explanation for the edit block was as follows:

"You are blocked for 48h for editwarring on Metromedia; see revert 1, 2, 3, 4. Please note that neither you nor any group of which you are a part owns any particular article, as you seem to assume judging from this comment. Please engage in discussion on the talk page about why the format you prefer is better, rather than editwarring about it."

and following the expiration of that edit ban he started making aggressive reverts on the article Soul Train, When User:TMC1982 asked User:Rollosmokes to stop reverting people's edits on the Soul Train article User:Rollosmokes again became aggressive and posted the following message:

"First of all, I never labelled any changes on the Soul Train article as vandalism. Secondly, the extra subsectioning in your version messed up the continuity of the text, and is otherwise unnecessary. That was my reason for reverting back, and I will reiterate again that I did not label your edit as "vandalism". When my block is lifted, I will change it back. Rollosmokes 06:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)"

In response User:TMC1982 posted

"What you call "messed up continuity", I call breaking the article down in sections for easier reading. You don't exactly "own" the Soul Train page!!!TMC1982 2:28 p.m., 10 March 2007 (UTC)"

Clearly User:Rollosmokes has some anger and aggression issues that he needs to deal with and the fact that he feels he has the right to revert any article in Wikipedia without question because he deems them not up to his own personal standards instead of Wikipedia's standards. I would like to recommend that he be edit blocked for a period no less then 14 days after which he will be required to have a Wikipedia mentor who will look after him and guide him along on what he should and shouldn't do and what is proper and what is not proper. They call me Mr. Pibb 07:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

User Theandrewdotcom adding lots of chess openings[edit]

Resolved: Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 12:23Z

User:Theandrewdotcom has begun mass-adding a lot of chess openings with no real attempt at articles. It's spam and possible vandalism. FrozenPurpleCube 21:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd call it "spam" or "vandalism". Certainly, at least some chess openings (the ones with names) are notable, though I'm not sure I'd consider all the numbered openings to be separately notable. That user is using some atrocious coding syntax, however, with malformed HTML instead of wiki syntax, though Mediawiki is great at making a valid XHTML document out of whatever the users throw at it. *Dan T.* 21:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody run a bot on these articles and make them redirect to List of chess openings? They seem to have little potential as articles, but some navigational value. —xyzzyn 21:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Meanwhile, I've usernameblocked him, as "Usernames that contain a domain or imply a web address" are prohibited per WP:U. Sandstein 22:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
On a related note, Theandrewdotcom seems to be a chess themed weblog--VectorPotentialTalk 22:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed it does. I noted the possible conflict of interest in my original message on the user talk page.
I've also left a message on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chess with the intention of starting a discussion as to whether these 200 chess openings merit individual articles. My opinion being that they are unlikely to be notable enough and should probably be merged with List of chess openings.
Would the next step with regards to this issue be to go to AfD? I'm not sure whether it would be feasible to add a link to the AfD on each page as per "How to list multiple related pages for deletion". I guess this would be fairly straightforward for a bot to do though. Adambro 22:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
No need to, I have already redirected the articles to List of chess openings, there is no need for these articles. — Moe 23:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone should probably mention to them that the block was based on their username, and that they're perfectly welcome to contribute to other chess related articles as long as they pick a non .com name--VectorPotentialTalk 00:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, he has the {{usernameBlocked}} message on his talk page, which should be clear enough. Sandstein 07:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we consider this issue resolved now all of the 200 articles created have been changed to redirects? Adambro 12:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:Candidates for speedy deletion[edit]

has a huge backlog, and now has links to even huger backlogs. I've done my small part, but I must leave and now all of you should carry on the good fight. By the way, there was once an idea to have some sort of automated template at the top of this page telling us when there's a large backlog at CSD... Whatever happened to that idea? Grandmasterka 22:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

My word...makes the Titanic look puny. The template sounds like a good idea. Moreschi Request a recording? 22:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Just add {{User:Dragons flight/Category tracker/Summary}} to your user page. Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 00:03Z
I did that... I don't know about you, but I rarely look at my own userpage anymore. A template here, that would be added by a bot when the backlog tag on CSD is un-commented, and removed when the backlog tag is commented out, would do the trick nicely. Personally, it would remind me that there are sometimes more important things at hand than wikidrama. :-) Grandmasterka 00:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Good point, though then other people would say "what about WP:PER backlog?" and "what about X, Y, Z backlog", and eventually we'd have the entire contents of that bot-updated template on this page :) Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 03:02Z
Yeah... Maybe a drop-down version of the backlog template? A veritable backlog menu? :-/ Grandmasterka 08:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


Hi there,

Anon Ip User: has started making massive POV edits to Glyphosate, it is highly likely that this is a sockpuppet of User:Benjiwolf who has been blocked before for disruptive editing in general as on this page - see [17].

Note that their massive edit [18] removes some useful info, adds some useful info, but mostly seeks to push a particular POV on the article e.g. at the most basic it is not a discussion of Glyphosate anymore but of Roundup. From the their contributions [19] it can be seen that this editor is obviously experienced with Wikipedia, e.g. of trying to bait me into a WP:3R - [20].

I suggest an outside user please comment on User: actions, maybe semi-protection of the page is in order, and an investigation into the sockpuppet issue. Cheers Lethaniol 00:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Note this edit [21] also - where the Anon Ip reverts all their work??? Cheers Lethaniol 00:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

accusations of baiting for a 3RR are patently false, the editor was warned several times clearly in several ways, including on his talk page about nearing a third RR... 00:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Something needs to be done about Benjiwolf. As stated on the sockpuppet report, I would be happy to pass out any blocks/page protections required but I believe there is a conflict of interest as I have dealt with benjiwolf directly on several pages. Read the user's talk page and you will see he/she is determined to evade any block placed. If I could get another admin to review Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Benjiwolf (2nd), it would be very helpful. auburnpilot talk 01:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This IP user has also been trolling the Ann Coulter talk page at a level I've never seen before and our patience is wearing thin. He also accused me of something I didn't do on Talk:Cannabis (drug). All I did was add citation tags to a few sentences. --Ubiq 08:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Vintagekits' bad faith PRODing & spamming[edit]

User:Vintagekits is engaged in spamming by placing PRODs on everything related to the British peerage or Honours recipients as "non-notable" or "nn?" or "nn??" He was engaged in abusive spamming on a massive scale, and it is directly related to the user's pro-PIRA bias.

See below a partial list:
  • 19:14, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir William Arbuthnot, 3rd Baronet
  • 19:13, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir William Arbuthnot-Lane, 2nd Baronet
  • 19:12, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Frederick Arthur
  • 19:11, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) John Lubbock, 3rd Baron Avebury
  • 19:09, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) John Lubbock, 2nd Baron Avebury
  • 19:08, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Bernard Waley-Cohen
  • 19:07, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Ian Frank Bowater
  • 19:05, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) David Brewer
  • 19:02, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir David Baird, 3rd Baronet
  • 19:02, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir Alexander Baird, 1st Baronet
  • 19:01, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir William Barber, 1st Baronet
  • 18:59, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Gilbert Barling
  • 18:58, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Thomas Erasmus Barlow
  • 18:57, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Sir Thomas Barrett-Lennard, 2nd Baronet
  • 18:54, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Henry Benyon
  • 18:31, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Gladys Hartman
  • 18:30, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Maureen Brennan
  • 18:29, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Gillian Pugh
  • 18:27, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Daphne Purves
  • 18:26, 10 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Una Pope-Hennessy

O'Donoghue 01:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: All the bad faith PRODs were converted into requests to expand article by User:kittybrewster. Regardless, User:Vintagekits' edits need to be reviewed given his history on Wikipedia and his blatant biases.O'Donoghue 01:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Please note that Vintagekits is currently blocked for an alleged 3RR violation that is under review. He has indicated on his talk that he will respond to this thread as soon as he is in a position to do so. Newyorkbrad 01:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It should be noted that Vintagekits has made some very offensive comments in the past week regarding British people. On Talk:Celtic he said, "Aside from the fact that term British actually makes my skin crawl" [22]; then later said "it was not for the IRA I would not be rule a free country and it would still by under Britsh imperialist sectarian rule. Thank god for the IRA"[sic] [23]. He has also been attempting to discredit good faith comments made by several editors in 2 AFDs on articles similar to the ones he has been targeting above. [24]
  • So is anyone going to do anything about this hatemonger (User:Vintagekits), whose grammar appears to be at early grade school level, polluting Wikipedia? Also - the person who made the very useful comment directly above mine should return to sign off on it.O'Donoghue 12:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

copyvio on Atlantis[edit]

User:Karohatch pasted the text of a National Geographic article into Atlantis: [25]. That diff includes about six revisions; I've reverted to a previous version, but should those edits be deleted from the page history? The author helpfully provided the url of the story in his edit. I haven't had a chance to look closely at Karohatch's other edits, but this one also looks like potential copyright trouble: [26]. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

As a general rule we don't have to delete copyvios from the page history. Just not having them be the active page is ok. That is not true for images, where we outright delete them. Georgewilliamherbert 06:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
But regardless of it is text or images, if the user is posting copyright violations galore, just block the account. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
They'd only posted one copyvio that's clear and evident, on Atlantis, and that one had credit and source info right in it so it was clear what they'd done. The Milesians one could be, but I don't know where it came from... someone have time to look at it?. They stopped (went to bed?) before the warning was put up. They just returned to editing a couple of minutes ago, and re-did one noncopyvio segment that was reverted out on Atlantis, but haven't done anything else yet. I'm going to engage more on their talk page to make sure they understand the policy. Georgewilliamherbert 07:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked him and an IP 24 hours for reinserting the material twice more, once after the two warnings were obviously on his talk page. Last insert was exact same material as an IP address, transparently the same person. Georgewilliamherbert 07:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit war on placement of names[edit]


User:Taalo is repeatedly reediting the introductory sentence (putting the German name, though it is one of the two official names, after the non-official Ladin name) of the articles Bolzano and Merano inserting his POV (contributions: [27]. I warned him on Talk:Bolzano#Warning: Vandalism). I really don't like it, but there is a kind of edit war, including personal attacks, between "pro Italians" and "pro Germans" on South Tirol and Trentino-South Tirol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhJ (talkcontribs)

Both edit warriors on Bolzano are now blocked for WP:3RR, and the page is protected until they get consensus about the order the names of the city should appear in. No further admin action required at this point. Sandstein 08:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Malfunctioning Bot -- User:MetsBot[edit]

This bot is apparently fixing links to relocated user boxes and/or relocating the boxes. I have a user box that links to the box's subject (User:UBX/Monty Python). The bot changed the link to the box and also changed the link to the subject, Monty Python, so the box on my user page now links to UBX/Monty Python. --Butseriouslyfolks 08:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Violation of privacy[edit]

User (and Admin) [[28]] had posted on Talk page what he thinks is a real name of an editor he is fighting against. I believe this act violates the WP privacy rules that safeguard editors from potential threats that exist in repressive societies and other environments adversary to open expression, and the spirit of participation in WP. I believe this act was willingly done in order to intimidate an editor [[29]]. Barefact 08:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hint! Hint!: Go here and report all of the instances (with links provided) of this user's real name being shown upon wiki [done by e-mail, of course], because it is a violation of the the privacy policy. Real96 08:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Emir Arven (talk · contribs) - vandalistic, nationalist troll deserves a ban or indef block[edit]

Thread moved to WP:CN, proposes a community ban. MER-C 09:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please help[edit]

Ideogram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is making personal attacks on Wikipedia talk:Good article candidates. I apologize if this is not the right place to bring this. --NE2 09:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Per various talk pages, I have asked Ideogram not to make personal attacks, NE2 not to delete them, and both to avoid 3RR arguing over it. It appears to have stopped. Georgewilliamherbert 10:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Indon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is now claiming to apply style guidelines, while actually not applying them: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) says that "Good places for link duplication are often the first time the term occurs in each article subsection." but he removed a link a section and a number of paragraphs down from the first use. --NE2 10:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is this an ANI issue? Have you followed any of the lower steps of dispute resolution, asked for anyone else to discuss it with them...? Georgewilliamherbert 11:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over removal of talk page comments[edit]


--Ideogram 10:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please intervene here. --Ideogram 09:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Block of Jooler[edit]

I was recently blocked for 72 hours by Jayjg. The incident that led to this block can be seen on Talk:Gillian McKeith. I am not very happy about what happened here. I don't believe I did anything wrong apart from breaching 3RR and even here I was trying to correct broken links and got caught in edit conflicts. I certainly resent the accusation of "acting dumb" and I also take issue against the claim that the material that I was restoring (I was not the original contributor of this material) constitutes original research. I also believe that Slim Virgin's bullet point explaination of the so called "original research" (posted after I was blocked) is flawed. Jooler 09:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

User:R9tgokunks step accross the line[edit]

From december 27th 2006 : we have 12 reversions on the article Alsace :

and he does not want to have a serious talk on his talk page (section Vandalism on the article Alsace)... I'm a bit fed up of his behavior. Can you do something? Sincerily user:Paris75000 13:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Gene Nygaard's probation[edit]

I would like to be clarified regarding the current status of Gene Nygaard's community probation. Quoting Gene himself about it, "the page (...) has a big notice a the top: This Wikipedia page is currently inactive and is retained primarily for historical interest". Does the fact that the community sanction page is now tagged as inactive mean that the probations contained therein are void? Gene's probation clearly states that "Gene Nygaard is banned from non consensual article moves until further notice". If the ban is still active, then Gene has been constantly disrespecting it, according to his move log. Namely, Gene's been moving articles with the well-known purpose of wiping diacritics off their names. Recent examples of this are Wanda Gág to Wanda Gag[30], Eggert Jónsson to Eggert Jonsson[31], Zoran Petrović to Zoran Petrovic[32], among others. Particularly interesting is Šuligoj Roman to Roman Suligoj[33], where Gene states that the reason for the move was "order per naming conventions", not forgetting though to deface the name by removing the diacritic in the process.
I reminded Gene of his probation [34], but unsurprisingly Gene replied with his typical strategy of launching random accusations. I kindly request a review by the community regarding Gene's actions and current status of his probation.--Húsönd 03:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Wanda Gag for an example of Husond's shenanigans here.
Furthermore, the previous discussion dealt with only moving articles which didn't have the proper redirects from the English language spelling. I have not done that since. Instead, I point out to the editors of those articles the need for creating such redirects by using the maintenance Category:Articles needing redirects.
Note also that Husond tries to deceptively hide the fact that he is perpetually pushing the inclusion of diacritics where they do not belong, as he did here in the case of Arpad Elo who spelled his name that way for 80 years as a U.S. citizen, and for whom the only evidence of any other spelling he may have used was not the Árpád Élő spelling he was pushing, but rather the Arpád Éllő spelling used on the ship's manifest when he came to America as a kid. Gene Nygaard 04:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Shenanigans, ooooh. Why do you keep bringing up Árpád Élő, the one and only move proposal that pleased you (and solely because nobody could find reliable online records of his Hungarian name)? Should I cast tens of examples of move proposals where you fought an uphill battle and lost after wasting everybody's time and patience? Not here.--Húsönd 05:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Reliable records of his Hungarian name are irrelevant, and you know it. There was oodles of evidence that "Arpad Elo" was the name always used in his publications, and always used in reference to the Elo rating system in chess for which he is famous (except for places corrupted by Wikipedia). That rating system is the reason he is notable enough for a Wikipedia article in the first place. Note that even the rabid diacritics fanatics like Husond have never tried to move that to Élő rating system; in fact, even they realize that there is absolutely no need for even a redirect from that, because it is never used, just as Arpad Elo never used any other spelling for the last 80 years of his life. That is one of tens or hundreds of cases where bad moves have been reversed. Our article is at Ho Chi Minh and not at at Hồ Chí Minh (which is of course a redirect). You are just a sore loser, Husond, because you argued unsuccessfully for retaining improper names in cases such as Amer Delic and others.
And then you have the gall to come here and try to pull the wool over the eyes of the people here, trying to falsely imply that when a name is or was sometimes written with diacritics that the version with diacritics is always the proper one to use, and that if it is written with a varying number of letters with diacritics, the version with the most diacritics is the proper one. Why in the world are you so hell-bound on eliminating the use of the English language on the English Wikipedia in any case? Why you consistently claim that there is some error in using the English alphabet when writing in English? We may choose to use diacritics in many of the names here on Wikipedia, but we do not do so because it is incorrect not to do so in English. Rather, we are choosing among legitimate alternatives.
Note also that Husond was the one who unblocked User:Darwinek when he was blocked for personal attacks against me at the same time as Darwinek make the improper block against me to gain advantage in a content dispute, which was reversed as discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive182#Improper blocking by Darwinek. Husond puts his blinders on when it comes to abuses of admin powers as well as the violations of the rule against personal attacks by his fellow admin who has helped out with many of these undiscussed, unreferenced and improper moves, but for some reason has a vendetta against me. Gene Nygaard 15:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The community-imposed probation holds no matter where the discussion occurred. Just because WP:PAIN does not exist anymore doesn't mean that personal attack complaints/reports posted there in the past were not legitimate and now void. I remark only on the procedure, not the dispute itself. --210physicq (c) 04:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, User:Husond, maybe you'd like to discuss this improper, unreferenced and unexplained move by you of Pal Benko to Pál Benkő, which was of course later reversed and moved back where it belongs without the diacritics, in a requested moves discussion which didn't even need my participation or even any awareness of it on my part to come to the proper conclusion. I haven't ever edited either that article or its talk page. Gene Nygaard 17:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe you both should step away from the issue (and each other), as all of this is turning into a bit of a war. I'm sure the diacritics will work themselves out without the two of you for a short time until you can both cool off.
That said, I do find that moving a page over another Admin's block as User:Jonathunder did, or in spite of a community probation against such activity, as User:Gene Nygaard did, is not a particularly productive way to ensure that we all have the best Wikipedia we can. Just a random editor's opinion. Ryanjunk 21:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If, as Husond claims, he was merely reverting on the basis that I had violated the earlier discussion (which I totally dispute), then what in the hell cause does he, or you, have to complain about an independent determination to move it on the basis fo the facts of the case, whether it is by User:Jonathunder or any other editor whatsoever? If User:Husond wasn't making a determination to revert on the basis of the facts of the case, then it remains an open field.
Furthermore, if instead Husond was indeed basing his move on the facts of the case, then in light of the fact that it had already been pointed out that the previous move was unreferenced, undiscussed, and controversial, then it was incumbent upon User:Husond to engage in that discussion, to cite his reasons and see if anyone else agreed or disagreed, before making the move. Husond did not do so. He can't have it both ways. Gene Nygaard 22:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Gene, please knock it off. You're skating along the ragged edge of wikilawyering and violation of the probation.
Husond, did you AGF and post talk page comments for all of this before coming to ANI, or did you short-circuit the normal process? Georgewilliamherbert 06:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I no longer assume good faith when it comes to Gene Nygaard, but I did leave a friendly reminder of the probation on his talk page, which he promptly refuted.--Húsönd 15:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

White people article[edit]

Please have a look at user Lukas, in the white people article. You can clearly see his irrational position. He argues with almost everyone else and is ready in engage in any edit war if it does not suit his POV. He is treating that article as if it was his own private one and his POV the only absolute truth. Veritas et Severitas 18:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Everyone else might be LSLM: IP, User: [35] looks similar to his other sockpuppets, [36] [37], especially given the similarity of their post history and posting times. Lukas19 19:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


You have just confirmed that is you which is veritas which is User:LSLM. And I was reverting Vandalism. You were deleting sourced material without explaining and without writing on talk page. Lukas19 20:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Lukas has a 24h timeout. Oters involved should take a step back and consider whether they are looking for an acommodation or a victory. Guy (Help!) 23:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I sometimes sign in and sometimes not and anyone can see my IP address. On the other hand Lukas position in the white people article can be seen by everyone. Veritas et Severitas 15:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Abuse of Admin privileges by Yannismarou[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There has been an ongoing discussion for over a week about whether it is correct to call Sparta a superpower in the introduction to the article Sparta. Essentially the argument against is that the introduction links to the article superpower which identifies a country with the ability to "project power on a worldwide scale", which I believe is not correct when applied to Sparta. The argument for is that there are cited references that mention that Sparta was a superpower.

As a compromise I offered that the text calling Sparta a superpower be moved down to within the article where there would be other text detailing Sparta's victories and defeats, for example see this [38].

Those favoring retention of the word superpower are Greek (ethinicity or residents) User:Domitius, and User:NikoSilver, and possibly Greek editor User:Miskin. Editor Miskin does not have information on personal page, but the vast majority of his last 5,000 edits involve Greece. [39]

Those who believe it is inappropriate to call Sparta a superpower include User:Dejvid (native language English), User:Gardener_of_Geda (Scot), User:Mehrshad123 (likely Iranian), User:Twospoonfuls (speaks English and Russian), User:Hodgetts (unknown nationality/ethnicity), User:A.Garnet (likely Turkish) and me User:Nayan_Nev (from India).

The entire discussion can be found at [40]. Here is a time sequence of the posts I regard as important.

User:Yannismarou, who is Greek, joined this discussion about 24 hours back with a post [41] replying to a post by me asking for a RfC or consensus [42]. His very first post was critical of me, saying "I think that your interpretation of "consensus" is a bit strange" and "I think that you are the one who should provide consensus supporting your view, and not the editors who defend the current and established version of the lead".
When I asked if the latter was Wiki policy [43] I did not receive a reply from Yannismarou.
Later he launched a personal attack upon me with innuendoes about my lack of politeness and honesty [44]
NikoSilver proposed a text which would retain the word superpower in the introduction [45].
Yannismarou approved of NikoSilver's suggestion, calling it "Nico's great proposal" [46].
I objected to this suggestion as it did not address the basic point of the debate (describing Sparta as a superpower). [47].
Yannismarou then claimed that I did not understand "superpower" was not much different from "hegemon" and that I was the only one objecting to NikoSilver's suggestion [48]. This is simply misleading as between NikoSilver's suggestion at 16:56 and Yannismarou's post at 17:12 there had elapsed about a quarter of an hour. During this short interval of time others editors objecting to the word superpower had not posted, but that does not mean they had changed their minds. I explained as much by this post [49].
At which point Yannismarou accused me of being disruptive [50].
My next two posts said I would accept the text proposed by A. Garnet as a compromise [51] and [52].
After that Yannismarou blocked me for violating WP:POINT! Essentially the last two posts I could post said I was ready to accept text suggested by another person (A.Garnet) as a compromise, and this according to Yannismarou constituted grounds for blocking me.
After blocking me Yannismarou began a section titled "Closing the Discussion" [53]. So he was silencing my disagreement with him by blocking me, and then moving on to "closing the discussion."
Saying that the word "superpower" had been correctly used (essentially the basic point of the unsettled debate) [54] Yannismarou unprotected the article and inserted the text suggested by NikoSilver [55].
When my block expired I challenged the correctness of Yannismarou's block [56] (at 18:45) upon which he reverted the article back to its previous version [57] (at 18:52).

Essentially Yannismarou took one side of the debate, accused me of being disruptive when I said I did not agree with the version he approved, blocked me, unprotected the article, changed the article to the version he approved, then self-reverted the article after being challenged by me when the block had expired.

I believe the evidence clearly shows my posts did not violate WP:POINT and Yannismarou abused his Admin privileges by blocking me for disagreeing with him on the appropriateness of using the word superpower to describe Sparta.

Thanks to all for taking time to read this,

NN 23:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Checking Nayan Nev's edit history, it seems that (s)he edited the main article Sparta only moderately (plus a bit of reverting vandalism), always including detailed edit comments. I did not see any 3RR violation. Most related contributions were on Talk:Sparta, trying to resolve the dispute through discussion, where I did not see any inappropriate language. In light of this, it seems the block through Yannismarou was in rush, as I did not see a WP:POINT violation as indicated in the block log, definitely not an egregious disruption. Note: I am not involved in the conflict and have not edited Sparta before. -- Chris 73 | Talk 00:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It's perhaps worth pointing out that Admin Yannismarou later "regretted" blocking Nayan Nev, though he also said he had "no alternative". I, myself, took no part in the actual article reversions, but my opinion (as an interested observer of the goings-on) is that NN has been quite seriously harassed and bullied by other editors simply because he dared to suggest that any reference to a Greek city-state being a "superpower" was inappropriate. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 00:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there was quite a few personal attacks by users like User:Miskin that User:Gardener_of_Geda had challenged.[58] I had ignored these attacks as responding to them would only make more difficult my goal of making the article more accurate. While I thank Geda for support I am quite willing to overlook the personal attacks by Miskin etc. What bothers me is being blocked, I believe that really interferes with the way Wiki is supposed to work. NN 00:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Nev you really got some nerve. Overlook my personal attack? For the last time if you think I have delivered a personal attack to anyone then report me under NPA, just stop repeating something until it is verified. Garderner_of_Geda I've seen you showing interest in that article before though never making any contributions. If you are going to accuse people for bullying and harrassment then please do it by providing some diffs, just like I did. This is not about an edit which lacks its references, its about other people's integrity. Your contribution to the discussion was that "Spartans were stupid", or a similiar non-helpful argument in favour of Nev. Miskin 18:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
As for Yannismarou expressing regrets, I asked him to say specifically whether 1) he was regretting blocking me or 2) he was regretting my (blockworthy) actions on my behalf?[59] From his answer it did not sound like 1), it could be 2), I don't know. [60]NN 00:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

As an outside observer and non-admin, I think this block was extremely inappropriate. Yannismarou was clearly involved in a content dispute with NN, and he blocked him for violating WP:POINT. Looking at the talk page, there was no disruption from NN who was calmly and rationally presenting his side of the debate. In fact his last edit before being blocked was to agree with another editor on the other side of the conflict. It looks like Yannismarou doesn't understand the blocking policy or WP:POINT. AniMate 01:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Totally inappropriate use of admin tools by Yannismarou. Admins are not suppose to use their admin tools when they're in content dispute with other editors, to threaten and bully the other side into accepting their POV. Someone should start a RFC, and take this case all the way to the ArbCom. --Mardavich 02:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I also protest this admin's blocking of one of the editors for their legitimate (and neutral) edits to the Sparta (Greek City State) article and the reversion of this article to the fictional version. (a) the Spartans never "Overpowered the Persian Empire" -- this statement is not even found in any of the Greek legends and indeed the Spartans were subjects of the Persians. and (b) the word "superpower", re-enforced by this admin, and my other Greek friends to describe the Persian vassal city of Sparta is exteremely silly. I BELIEVE THAT THIS ADMINISTRATOR IS BIASED ON THIS GENERAL TOPIC AND I REQUEST THAT NEUTRAL ADMINISTRATORS OVERRIDE CHANGES MADE BY YANNISMAROU. Mehrshad123 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This appears to be a textbook case of blocking to gain advantage in a content dispute. There was no violation of WP:POINT as claimed, as far as I can tell, nor WP:CIVIL or WP:AGF. All of that said, there's no reason right now to apply MORE admin power to this situation. Yannismarou, please be aware that you have a lot of people looking over your shoulder right now. Everyone else there: civil discussion on the talk page does not require that you all agree on something. Nor does consensus - one person or a small group can't keep there from being a consensus of a majority of others. But you are expected to tolerate civil and polite disagreement and advocacy from those with other content opinions. Failure to do so is violation of AGF. Serious violations of AGF are blockable. NN does not get a free pass to winning the content dispute for having been improperly blocked, either. Georgewilliamherbert 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Yanni's a friend of mine, so I may be a bit biased here, but I'd ask that people take a look at as much of that talk page as they can find time for before handing down judgement like this. While I agree that the block was probably hasty, I don't think it was intended to gain advantage in a content dispute. Rather, I think it was a case of frustration with a discussion in which NN had yet to bring a single source to the table, arguing instead from his (often seriously inaccurate) understanding of the period over an inordinately long discussion (it took me over half an hour to read through it just now). Looking at that talk page as a student of the period, NN's posts are essentially hollow argumentation, and his persistence in rehashing the issue had reached the point that he was getting on people's cases when they tried to take the discussion in a somewhat more interesting and fruitful direction. Although a block from Yannismarou was probably not appropriate in the circumstances, I can't really blame him for trying to restore usability to a talk page that was being appropriated in this way. --RobthTalk 08:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I had no contact with Yanni before, but I would also like to hear his comments first before condemning his actions. Admins are also humans, and as such make failures on occasions. A call for desysopping is IMHO not yet appropriate unless there are multiple similar abuses. From my point of view, if Yanni understands&regrets his mistakes, possibly with an apology to NN, a stern warning would suffice. -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
If you read once again carefully the course of the discussion you will see that more than once, NN interrupted an ongoing discussion with other users in order to promote his point. I warned him once, and I told him that blocking is not my first option here [61]. Before my comment there you can see what this user was kept doing all the time [62]. A discussion was on with A.Garnet about a part of the lead in discussion, and NN not caring at all started a new section in order to promote his point! Nobody else was there for him!! Nobody else's intervention mattered!!! Only him and the promotion of his own opinion. Before my blocking, NN did exactly the same thing: disruption of an ongoing discussion, interruption of its course (because he did not like it) and starting of a new section here with the imposition of his own positions. He did not care that the above discussion was still ongoing! No!! This did not matter for him!!! And why all that? Because he had to promote his point.
If you think that my blocking was improper, I respect your opinion, and I can live with it. But I stand firm that I did the right thing at this particular moment. At least, during NN's blocking we had a proper discussion without the unconstructive participation of a user who disrespected all his co-editors there by interrupting their ongoing discussions in the most impolite and contemptuous way. After all, my blocking of NN was not punitive, it lasted just one hour, and its own purpose was to serve the efforts for the reaching of consensus. I'm sorry consensus was not reached, but thanks to my decision we came too close to an agreement. NN's activity was definitely disruptive and falls under the scope of WP:POINT.
And something last: as I have made clear in my userpage, I am an administrator open to recall. If you believe that my decision was so wrong that it deserves such a response by Wikipedia's competent organs, then do what is best for Wikipedia. Personally, I do not intend to apologize to a user who disrupted in the worst and most contemtuous way an ongoing discussion in Sparta's article for the finding of a solution just in order to promote his point and who repeatedly acted against consensus in another article (Republic of Macedonia); a consensus which in Sparta is his banner.--Yannismarou 10:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The diff you provided is not useful. Please provide some more...
I have gone back through the page, and I don't see any WP:POINT. I don't see any disruption. They're talking, on a talk page, discussing options and opinions. POINT is changing an article to make a point, not discussing opinions about changes. He's perfectly entitled to create a new section, start an alternate proposal, etc.
If there's more there, please provide specific diffs.
We cannot be recalling admins over every mistake. But your reactions here are worrysome. It's not clear to me that you actually understand WP:POINT, or WP:BLOCK and why it's so strongly recommended for admins to just not block people they are involved in content disputes over. Georgewilliamherbert 10:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The protesting user is repeatedly making a case against policy. He has been violating WP:NOR and WP:POINT, by constantly bringing up a resolved issue. He has been WP:SPAMming for support to irrelevant/unaware users (some of which have expressed their opinion here too). What tipped the bucket, IMO, is that he persistently misinterpreted/ignored the position of others (straw man), by "playing fool". His main "dispute" (if we can call that such a lame issue of wording) was that the word "superpower" should either be replaced or limited to within the boundaries of Ancient Greece. When a compromise proposal was made that addressed his concern by replacing plain "superpower" with "superpower of the Ancient Greek world", he pretended repeatedly that he does not understand the difference (that he himself had requested). He constantly misinterpreted other peoples comments and equated the two. Note that the word "superpower" for Sparta is sourced to exhaustion. I am sorry to see that he keeps twisting and equating the two wordings also here, continuing to "play fool". To add, Yanni is one of the most worthy contributors with multiple featured contributions, and one of the calmest people I've seen around in disputes. I endorse this block, and there is much more than plain "content dispute" in it. Note how many times he posted and reposted the same "playing fool" request, even after he was asked with the politest way to stop, so that we could resolve another more serious issue and come back to it lated. NikoSilver 11:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

How is it a violation of WP:NOR or WP:POINT? I've been back over the talk page a couple of times and I don't see these violations you and Yannismarou are claiming. If they're so clear you should be able to provide diffs and citations to the appropriate policy.
I am afraid that you don't understand the policy.
I could just not be seeing something in the talk page history. It is late. I am entirely open to being shown the right set of offending diffs. But I don't see it on my own.
Please provide us with the specifics of what diffs, what claims, and what parts of WP:NOR and WP:POINT this discussion violated. I am especially curious how a talk page discussion violated WP:NOR and WP:POINT; the definition of NOR seems to exclude anything one might say on a talk page, but as I said, it's late and I may be missing something. I didn't see any POINT violations, but I'll look at any diffs you show us.
It's important on Wikipedia for admins or anyone advocating user sanctions to be prepared to show the specific evidence so that others can see exactly what was going on which was wrong. If we cannot independently verify what you suggest is wrong, you have to show it. Georgewilliamherbert 11:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Let me just add that when Miskin rejected a proposal of him, NN started a new section (the tactics he loves, and which along with his other actions constitute indeed a clear violation of WP:POINT), arguing that Miskin accepted his proposal, and pretending that he did not understand what Miskin said! Me and Miskin repeatedly tried to explain him that he interpreted the answer in question in the wrong way, but he insisted! In this way he once again attempted to mislead all the other users and tried to promote his own point. This was the contribution of NN to the discdussion, and this was his stance during all the day yesterday.--Yannismarou 11:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
On this i agree with Georgewilliamherbert. While an editor may be difficult to discuss with on the talk page (and I am not saying NN is or is not), this alone is no grounds for blocking. Disrupting the articles may be blockable, but (re)starting discussions is clearly not. You definitely need to re-read on the respective policies! -- Chris 73 | Talk 11:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The block was not punitive, it was preventive so that the rest of the users could talk within reason. Disruption was also to the fact that there were constant edit conflicts for circular "playing fool" arguments. NikoSilver 11:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, if disrupting an ongoing discussion (not just restarting a discussion, but disrupting the course of an ongoing discussion which is not over), misinterpreting other people's words, being impolite and direspectful towards other users (by not letting them finish their ongoing discussion), and in this way appropriating a talk page does not deserve an effort to restore the usability of the talk page by 1 hour's block, mmm ... then yes I may have to re-read the respective policies.--Yannismarou 11:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have never seen anyone called for disruption, much less blocked, for anything as weak as the level of debate I see on the talk page now. I think you both need to re-read the policies. Niko, edit conflicts are edit conflicts, not user abuse issues. The edits I see, all of you could have just ignored them, and gone on with consensus, and nothing they were doing would have actually gotten in the way. There's a world of difference between "he won't shut up" and "he's actively disrupting other attempts to talk". He didn't delete other people's comments that I see, insult anyone gravely, etc. If other stuff met the disruption category... I don't see it yet, but maybe its there. Please provide diffs, after you read the policy and look at some examples. Georgewilliamherbert 11:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

As George requested, and unless Yanni does so in the meantime, I'll provide diffs later on. You will excuse me for some few hours though because I have to go. NikoSilver 11:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I was involved in this dispute. I suggested a few compromises which avoided the term superpower but made reference to Sparta's pre-eminent position in Ancient Greece. NN had accepted two of my compromises. I do not believe NN's block was warranted or helpful. I made no comment on this during the discussion because I thought perhaps NN had a history as disruptive user (people were citing WP:NOFEEDING), but this does not seem to be the case. It seems he was blocked because a number of Greek editors saw his opposing view as an annoyance, but what makes it worse is that NN actually agreed to both of my compromises, whilst they were rejected by the other disputants. Furthermore, I was definintely not pleased with Yannis using his admin powers to implement Niko's version while we were in the midst of a debate, though he recognised this and reverted himself later. But the point is his admin powers were not used constructively (or fairly) in this dispute. Sorry Yannis, you are a level headed and capable editor, but this is precisely why I was the only person to have opposed your adminship, knowing your tendency to fall on the side of Greek editors all too often. --A.Garnet 12:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever your opinion about the blocking may be (and I respect it just like all the opinions here), it is unfair to say that I "fall to the side of Greek editors". During yesterday's discussion I disagreed with Miskin on the part of the lead telling that "Sparta overpowered Persia". I also tried to place the use of the word "superpower" within the right context. Your proposal would be acceptable by me, but as you saw other users did not accept it. At the same time the term "military superpower of the ancient Greek World" was acceptable by the above users and me as well, but it was rejected by you and NN. I don't think this is exactly the case of "falling on the side of Greek editors".--Yannismarou 13:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
About my implementation of Nicos' proposal: at this moment I thought that a better wording (even without consensus) clarifying the Sparta-Persia balance of power and the meaning of "superpower" (not world but limited hellenic dimensions in this case) was much much better than the previous inaccurate edit under protection. After I edited it, I realised that NN and other users who insist on the removal of "superpower" will keep insisting on the (trivia for me) issue of "superpower", and will not accept my edit accusing me again for abuse of adm power. That is why, I decided to revert to the protected text, and not to be accused of violating any policies. Yes, it terms of policy my editing was wrong; but in terms of encyclopedic accuracy it was towards the correct direction. So, the final solution (revert to the protected text) is in accord with WP policies but it is against historical and scientific accuracy and content quality! This is the problem here!! We keep the bad protected text, because even a better text version is attacked and consensus is not reached.--Yannismarou 13:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I am seeing the same thing from Yannismarou here that I saw in the Sparta talk page, that is disagreement with him being labeled as disruption. He now says that starting a new section (to offer compromises) is disruptive, though he himself started new sections (like "Nico's great proposal" or "Concluding the discussion"). Basically he took upon himself to find a "consensus" with NikoSilver and objected to me offering an opinion during the process. This is simply censorship.

Looking at Yannismarou's logs, I see that he has only blocked two other registered users (and many anonymous users). The first one is a obvious block for vandalism, the next one is more relevant to this case. The editor User:Laertes_d was blocked by Yannismarou on 10:22, 3 February 2007. I do not condone Laertes_d's behavior, especially his posts after being blocked. The block no doubt infuriated him. The similarity to the existing situation is that this user too had been involved in a content dispute with Yannismarou. Referenced text in the article by Laertes_d had been removed by Yannismarou [63] with a generic explanation of "revert all POV". When User:Richardshusr questioned Yannismarou why he had removed referenced text [64] he received no reply [65]. All this was prior to Laertes_d being blocked, so Yannismarou was fully immersed in a content dispute before he blocked Laertes_d. Once again I do not condone the abrasive behavior by Laertes_d, but there was some of that on both sides, but only one got blocked.

Georgewilliamherbert pointed me to where it says "Blocking to gain an advantage in a content dispute is strictly prohibited. Sysops must not block editors with whom they are currently engaged in a content dispute. If in doubt, report the problem to other admins to act on." It is instructive to note that Yannismarou disregarded the directive to report any problem he saw to other admins. This happened in 2 of 3 situations he has ever blocked a registered user.

So where does all this leave us? For the integrity of Wikipedia processes I think this should be resolved now rather than later. Yannismarou maintains that he did no wrong and that "NN's activity was definitely disruptive and falls under the scope of WP:POINT." even after neutral admins Chris and Georgewilliamherbert and neutral editor User:AniMate have told him otherwise. He says "I do not intend to apologize" and goes on to label me "a user who disrupted in the worst and most contemtuous way an ongoing discussion".

We have come a long way, so to leave this hanging is simply encouragement for similar behavior in the future. Here are some options:

1) Yannismarou apologizes and agrees to in the future not use admin powers in Greek related articles.


2) As Yannismarou says he is an administrator open to recall, he acts upon it. As his admin actions have already been criticized by two neutral admins, I believe there is sufficient grounds for this.


3) Other Wiki processes are followed.

NN 13:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

NN, haven't you got something better to be getting on with? I thought you enjoyed wiki-stalking me the other day (something which nevertheless was trolling). I'm suffering now with the lack of attention.--Domitius 14:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Domitius, you along with NikoSilver, Miskin and Yannismarou have already been mentioned by me as part of the group. I would like to focus on the issue at hand rather than get into a slanging match. NN 14:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm really surprised by NN's comments above, and especially by his inaccurate and false comments. The twisting of incidents which occured in the past is really impressive. More impressive and indicative of his behavior is the fact that NN declares that he "condones" the actions of a user blocked by me in the past after the blocking. He obviously does not condone the insults of this repeatedly blocked user that led to my blocking. I call for all the involved in the discussion users to check the history of this block and the diffs I provided in the userpage of the blocked user, in order to realise if the block was justified or not. The only thing I can do is to express my sorrow for the above comments by NN. His edit warring in Sparta, Republic of Macedonia and his last comments here make me worry about the way this user edits in Wikipedia, and make me wonder if the goals he declares (NPOV) for his interventions are the real ones. I hope that I am wrong.--Yannismarou 14:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Fortunately everything said in the past can be easily located. As for the two new allegations by Yannismarou, I do not see how saying "I do not condone Laertes_d's behavior, especially his posts after being blocked" equals condoning his behavior in any way. My point was not about the comparative behavior of the two parties, but Yannismarou's ignoring the Wiki directive to have a different admin block Laertes_d. As for my "edit warring" on the Republic of Macedonia page, I made one edit, was reverted saying there had been a vote, reverted back requesting the details of the vote, and then stopped editing on receiving the requested information. Essentially ONE edit and ONE revert, that's all I did. Judge for yourself if that qualifies as "edit-warring". NN 14:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I see this discussion goes down a long way, and this is obviously not helpful for anybody here. I'll take into consideration a comment from Chris in NN's userpage {"Hopefully all the abusive aspects of this incident are now all past and we can all get back to making an encyclopedia"), and I'll apologize for NN's blockage. I recognize it was hasty, but at the moment I thought it served the restoring of the talk page usability. It seems that my decision did not help the final outcome of the discussion there, and the building of a consensus. Following these events, I'll also stay away from the Sparta's page, and I'll hope, at the same time, that an agreed solution will be reached there. This is going to be the best for quality and accuracy, which are the only reasons I took the unpleasant and (as regarded by the majority of editors here, whose opinion I take into serious consideration) wrong decision to block NN.--Yannismarou 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In the light of Yannis' comment above, the issue should be considered closed. Beit Or 14:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I too regard the matter closed. I would like to thank everybody here who contributed their time to make this resolution possible. My faith in Wikipedia's community has been been restored, no doubled! NN 14:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Despite it's been said, Nayan Nev has been an extremely disruptive editor. He has been extensively edit-warring on the limit of 3RR[66] and has invited Iranian users to edit-war on his POV. He has removed referenced information and has explicitely denied to abide by WP:ATT principles. He continues to randomly invite Iranian editors from Iran-related articles, who are apparently even more disruptive than him [67] [68]. Some have POV-pusher and vandal past (see User_Talk:Immortals) and are basically invited [69] to edit war - following Nayan's reminder on 3RR [70]. Yannismarou actually tried to speak in Nayan's stead in order to reach a mutually acceptable solution. Nayan kept attacking editors, starting new sections and trolling in a way I've never seen before, and all this during the others were trying to reach a consensus. Which forced me quit the conversation and Yannismarou put on him a one-hour block, only after explicit warning. The debate was basically started due to Nayan's incapability of respecting the WP:CITE policy and make edits our counter-edits that are based on credible sources. The article was basically locked as a result of Nayan's organised edit-warring[71] [72] Miskin 15:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Yannis, just a few words from someone who highly respects your contributions to Wikipedia and supported your RFA. I'm not going to plow through all the diffs or history, but this reads like the kind of situation that gives rise for concern. As an admin, it is up to you to rise above it and set the example. It is in no one's interest for this situation to escalate or fester. My recommendation would be to apologize, and agree to call in another, less-involved admin if future disputes arise on Greek articles. If there is in fact a problem with NN's contributions, that will eventually come to light. I don't support a recall or sysop or ArbCom actions, because I believe you can/will respond reasonably. I recently strongly-opposed another RfA candidate because I firmly believed he may use the tools to influence debate on certain country topics; this is not the kind of discussion that warms people's hearts. Try to end this quickly, and learn from it. All the best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, gee, late to the party again; I see I missed your apology above. I knew you'd do the right thing :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The debate is a question of WP:ATT and not wikipedians' POV. The opposing side doesn't respect WP:CITE and WP:NOR. Also very few of the people mentioned above have ever participated in the actual editing of the article. They all appeared after Nayan's disruptive activity. None of them have presented counter-sources on the question at hand. In my opinion (POV alert) there are only very few of those editors who can be considered as non-partisans, the rest have found themselves there as a result of wp:vendettas and wp:stalking. As shown in the diffs below, Mehrshad was invited by Nayan_Nev to openly start an edit-war, so was User:Immortans and who knows how many others. A. Garnet has never shown interest in the particular article, nor in any related article, nor has he ever proved himself knowledgeable on the topic. He appeared soon after he had a conflict with Domitius in a different article, Cypriot Civil War I think, where he received a block. And now, there you see him, pretending to be a completely neutral participant. This demonstrates how exploitable dispute-resultion method and wp:policy are. Nobody really respects the policies, not even old users, and unreferened POV is powerful enough to cause all this. Half of the people participating in Talk:Sparta have gotten there either by rv-war invitation or by stalking another users' contribution lists. None of them has _ever_ contributed in Sparta, nor any related article - yet their unsourced opinion counts as much as real contributors' referenced opinion, and is causing all this trouble. This is a just _laughable_ - it reveals how easily a malicious editor can exploit all Policies and still be taken seriously, without offerring any contributions to wikipedia whatsoever. In the apogee of irony - he may even receive an apology! Miskin 17:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of not escalating the situation, again, if there is a problem with NN's or anyone else's contributions, that will eventually come to light. NPOV is hardly enforced on Wikipedia (Wiki's largest problem IMNSHO), but it's in no one's interest for an involved admin to be blocking; an uninvolved admin should do that. Two wrongs (pervasive POV on Wiki, and involved admins blocking) don't make a right. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that at least one person is being realistic about this. I repeate, this debate is just laughabe. We wouldn't be even having it if half of the people involved could just take a minute and read WP:ATT and take it literally instead of metaphorically. Anyone who wants to make an edit needs to have a reference. Anyone who wants to challenge an edit or include an alternative opinion needs to have a counter-reference - there's no case of dispute otherwise. Miskin 18:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Very-very-speedy deleting of an article[edit]

I created Notable usages of the phrase "I love you" with content MOVED from I love you. It took me only the time to go back to the original article and delete that content, to see that the new article had been tagged for speedy deletion with reason "content COPIED from another article". Since I believed that reason was not correct, I put in a hangon on the article and started writing the explanation on the Talk page. When I saved the explanation, the article had already been deleted. From creation to explanation, the whole process took less than half an hour.

I don't want to discuss the merits or demerits of the deleted article and of the killed contents, but I'm very, very annoyed at some overzealous admin who couldn't wait another minute to see my explanation and who thus made me waste my (voluntary and good-faith) time.

Even if this is an acceptable behavior under admin guidelines, it still shows lack of respect for other people's time and efforts and the guidelines should probably be readdressed. Thank you (but still annoyed). --maf 01:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

According to WP:CSD, editors are supposed to allow time for article expansion before tagging it. Unfortunately, that is ignored a significant amount of the time and considering the backlog CAT:CSD normally has, it's usually not an option for the admin deleting it to check to ensure that enough time had been allowed. Responsibility rests with the tagger, in my opinion. I'm not at all a fan of an admin deleting a clearly good-faith article that is speedy-tagged with a {{hangon}} without giving enough time for a discussion on the talk page (in this case, less than 3 minutes from {{hangon}} to deletion by NawlinWiki). From start to deletion, less than 16 minutes. I agree that we can do better than this — the question is what needs fixing. —bbatsell ¿? 01:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that responsibility rests with the tagger. I believe responsibility rests with the writer, to take the time outside of main name space to create something that will stand up to scrutiny from the get-go. Good faith or no, a half-baked article is still only half-baked, nd there are few guarantees the article will be improved after it hits namespace. If people don't want their articles deleted, it is up to them to put something credible in place in the first place. Dennitalk 07:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem is people want to tag now, rather than having to put "go back and check article X" on their calendar. A solution may be to use {{delayed}} (which I created recently). For example, {{delayed|2007-03-16|2={{db-talk}}}} can be used on a talk page so that {db-talk} will appear on 2007-03-16. Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 02:10Z
Oooh, very intriguing template right there. My concern at first blush, of course, is adding it and then not checking the article again, so that if, for example, the article is significantly expanded, it would still end up being tagged. Obviously in this case one would hope that the admin wouldn't delete, but I've certainly seen lots of speedy deletions that have gone pretty clearly against policy. —bbatsell ¿? 02:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Good point. It would help to notify editors of the article by using the "else" clause of the template to display a warning of the "scheduled" automatic tagging, and also to state in the db reason that {delayed} was used, such that the deleting admin should check to see if it still applies. Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 02:21Z

I have undeleted the article and changed {db} to {prod}; it may merit AFD instead. Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 02:05Z

Good call. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 02:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Same thing happened to me. Selective entry schools was deleted within minutes of creation and the topic merits an article. Sfdasfr 02:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
That article was also speedy deleted too quickly and tenuously. I undeleted it but then realized it's a duplicate of Selective school, so I just redirected it there. Quarl (talk) 2007-03-11 02:51Z
I dislike the attitude that some new pages patrollers have that it's about "skimming the shit" that gets submitted (as Denni put it in response to maf's concern). If that's the attitude one has while watching new pages, that you're just "looking for shit to skim," then you can't help but pull the trigger too fast on needy articles that require assistance to grow. Leebo T/C 04:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I offer you this challenge: spend one evening on New Pages Patrol. My experience is that ten to fifteen percent of articles submitted are of such poor quality or are so frivolous (Damon Edwards is a l33t n00b and chicks dig him; The Wanking Shaggers are an up-and coming band...; Hamilton Heights School is a school in Prince Edward Island) that any reasonable editor would move to speedy-delete them. I read all articles on New Pages, and appreciate the fine quality of articles I often see. But I have no hesitation at all about nominating articles for speedy deletion that have nothing to contribute in terms of noteworthiness or serious intent. Please do not forget that I nominate them, but it takes a second editor to delete them. Please also do not forget that Wikipedia recieves literally thousands of articles an hour, and if there were no watchers at the gates, Wikipedia would quickly reach 15 million articles, most of them not suitable to line a bird cage. In the case of I love you, the article was in fact copied. I don't care that the author claims he wrote the original piece, fact is, the breakout poage was an exact duplicate of what already existed in a very short article, and no breakout was necessary. Claims that it needs "assistance to grow" are frivolous - it is the main article that needs time to improve, not some clip-out copy. As far as Selective entry schools goes, I tagged it as a speedy because it was about two sentences long and contained nothing to assert notability. Criticising me for ignoring a {{hangon}} is kind of odd, because only the deleting editor would have seen that, and that was not me. Bottom line: if authors do not want their pages deleted, they need to put in the time outside main articlespace to create an article that will withstand initial scrutiny before submitting it. I do not believe this is too much to ask. Dennitalk 07:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't really have an opinion on this article, all I said was I dislike the "skimming the shit" impression of it. I'm a new pages patroller too. Leebo T/C 13:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happened to creating an article in userspace before posting? That would eliminate most of the problems right there. RJASE1 Talk 04:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep. The best way to not get your article speedied is to not create speediable articles. Not even if you really are going to add more stuff, Real Soon Now, you promise! Write it in userspace, or write enough in your first mainspace draft that its merits are apparent. Opabinia regalis 05:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. New page patrollers are not mind readers and cannot assess the intention of the author. I've been around here long enough to see very feeble pages linger long after (I assume) the author has lost all interest in Wikipedia. It takes no more time to create a good article in userspace than it does in main namespace, and odds are the rresults if done so will stand much better in a speedy review. Dennitalk 07:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, no, it couldn't possibly be that people are tagging and deleting articles improperly. No, never. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I respond to your sarcasm by saying "not very often". I occasionally run across speedy delete nominations which are improperly tagged, but it's usually the category of tag that's incorrect, not the speedy nomination itself. Once in a while, articles for speedy should better have been prodded (I'm guilty of that myself on occasion) but for the most part, I think new pages patrollers do a good job at an onerous task. Dennitalk 19:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The Notable usages of the phrase "I love you" should have never been created in the first place, that is way to vauge info for the I love you article (how can you tell the phrase is extremely notable, and there is so many uses of I love you that it would be unmaintable anyways), so it should have just been removed from the article without creating a subpage. Jaranda wat's sup 05:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Essjay controversy[edit]

Serious Questions:

(I mean, look what happened to Essjay, I feel bad for him). Gwen Gale 09:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Are editors who are strong supportors of Essjay are allowed to edit the Essjay controversy article? Currently the quotes are gone from the Wales response and Essjay's response and there is an abnormally huge Reactions section. I could fix the clutter and improve the article. First, the quotes should be put back in the article. Second, the reactions section should be divided into two sections because it is undue weight to have such a long section. Third, someone recently changed a sentence that is now factually false in the Essjay letter's section. Fourth, a link to the offical "My response" of Essjay is of historical significance that belongs in the article. Fifth, many editors already wanted the images to stay in the article. Sixth, this is becoming a story within a story. Some editors want to delete the article. Since deletion is not possible. Then, they want to make the article cluttered, unreadable, and short as possible. Removing the images and the internal link is just some examples to shorten the article. The huge reactions section is just one example of clutter and improper structuring. I do not know what is the next step is this kind of environment. Currently they are trying to suppress pictures of screenshots and images of Essjay's for no valid reason. A few minor cosmetic changes, organization, and direction will dramatically improve the article and flow of reading. It is amazing to try to edit in an environment which a group of editors have made their support for someone who is now retired.

I do not know how to reason with a group of ediotrs in this kind of climate. Assistance and oversight is needed. What is the next step for this situation when the talk page will accoplish nothing. QuackGuru TALK 01:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you looked at Dispute resolution? HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 01:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
As to your first question, a) that's hardly "strong support" — I don't support what Essjay did, but I still feel bad for him..., b) yes they are. As to your second, the location for this discussion is on the article's talk page (or at WP:DR if you feel so inclined, but uh...), where editors have been attempting to engage you in discussion all day but for the most part you have refused. Please take it there and actually discuss first, thanks. Nothing here requires administrative intervention. —bbatsell ¿? 01:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
No amount of controversy should affect an article, short of it being protected or deleted. If you require further assistance, you should contact the AMA who may advocate on your behalf. anthonycfc [talk] 05:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I feel bad for him, too. Feeling compassion for someone who's managed to get himself into such a predicament doesn't indicate that I condone his deception. I'm sure many of us feel like that. Metamagician3000 10:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
What 'on bigotry's flying worms' asses the heck happened?
I always admired Essjay. --PaxEquilibrium 13:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Essjay is a Saint compared to the behavior and tactics a few of the editors on the Essjay controversy article. I organized the sections for easier flow of reading and improved the style of the quotes. Now I am being treated as if I vandalized the article. The talk page is turned into a circus. The comments by other editors against me are personal attacks and disruptive. The real story is the problems how things are run on Wikipedia. Mob consensus is not consensus. I want to change policy to collaboration. Consensus allows a group of editors to impose their will. There is an inherent flaw to going along with so-called consensus. Collaboration creates a higher quality article. I want to organize the sections, include images, include an internal link, and have the Wales' response and Essjay's response in quotes. Currently, the article has a huge reactions sections. It would be best to divide that section into two sections. The article is cluttered with such a huge reactions section. If anyone has anymore suggestions on this matter it would be helpful. QuackGuru TALK 16:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

"Mob consensus does not equal collaboration!"[