Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive252

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When will South Philly stop harrassing me?[edit]

I have to question when South Philly (talk · contribs) is going to stop trying to harrass me. I thought with the cessation of Evrik's attempts to appoint himself coordinator of WikiProject Awards, South Philly's abusive messages would cease, but apparently not. Actually, that last one was an attack on Kathryn NicDhàna as well, who supported the removal of Evrik as coordinator and really was utterly non-confrontational throughout. South Philly is utterly loyal to Evrik, to the point of nominating an certified RfC against him for deletion last week claiming that the five pages of evidence was just spurious and should be deleted. If South Philly can combine defending Evrik and attacking me, all the better; thus he signed an outside statement on the RfC in which it was claimed the LGBT community, and more specifically, me and Jeffpw, were deliberately targetting Evrik, written by someone who we strongly believe is a sockpuppet of a user banned for disrupting LGBT articles. South Philly has now nominated WikiProject Awards for deletion, which, beyond being too ironic for words that his basis for doing so is "excessive bureaucracy", is simply an attempt, once again, to get at me - which is just bizarre given I don't really care and haven't posted there for weeks. However, it's kinda POINTy because with the demise of Barnstar proposals, the WikiProject is more necessary than ever for help with new awards, be it design, or wording or whatever.

I find it unlikely that South Philly is going to give up his disruptive habits (which he also appears to be pursuing with Radiant! as well, but I can't comment on that) or vendetta against me in the near future, and as my time on Wikipedia is very limited, restricted mainly to minor edits and comments, I thought I'd detail it here for the future reference of any admins who may wish to watch him. I am certainly getting very fed up with this snidely little comments appearing everywhere because South Philly didn't get his way that one time. DevAlt 14:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Just my opinion, which doesn't amount too much, but this all stems from the "necessary" WikiProject Awards. Anyone else see the irony in that? I was belittled at the MfD for calling the project disruptive and pointless. Not that any of this matters. Sorry if no one cares to hear my opinion. IvoShandor 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The comments Ivo is referring to were not from me, btw. However, the "disruption" was caused by Evrik and South Philly, ended some time ago as far as WP:AWARDS is concerned, and have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of the project itself. Your reply was not the most edifying either, though, Ivo. DevAlt 17:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Having had no interactions (afaik) with South Philly for months now, and having barely interacted with him even during the WP:Awards situation (where SP and Evrik were trying to run the thing, and got very angry when other editors came in and made it democratic) I was very surprised at his odd post on my talk page today (linked above), and his screeds that some "gay cabal" is out to get him. It seems he cannot let go of what happened at WP:AWARDS. I looked at his recent contribs, and it appears to me that, rather than working on the encyclopedia, he is taking up lots of people's time with WP:POINT activities and subtle or not-so-subtle jabs and attacks on other editors. I think he needs to get constructive or take a time out. - Kathryn NicDhàna 18:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't realize ANI was here to enlighten everyone. I was just pointing out that this all stemmed from the project. Sorry if you don't like that, that project has been nothing but a problem, but we are all entitled to our own opinions. Your response is, of course, your opinion too, and I didn't mean to imply that the comments were from you, just thought it was ironic that there is a report on ANI related to a project that I was told doesn't disrupt anything. I can't comment on the other stuff, for the record, however, I was one of the editors who came in and headed off evrik's attempts to declare himself coordinator. IvoShandor 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
You are missing the point, IvoShandor. SouthPhilly is insulting people. That's the problem. Raystorm 10:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous edits to Kamikaze[edit]

An anonymous editor has been reverted sourced content in this article. Each edit is from a different IP in Japan (and the IP is used only once for this edit). The sentence taken out refers to conscript Koreans serving as Kamizazes in World War II. Requests to discuss this deletion (first on edit summaries, and most recently at Talk:Kamikaze#Korean_Kamikaze_pilots_.28part_2.29) are being ignored. Questions:

  • Is there anything else that can be done?
  • Will continued reversions of these unexplained deletions of sourced content be considered a content dispute, edit war, or 3-revert violation?

Kablammo 21:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, they're not doing it anymore, so I would think it has stopped. --əˈnongahy ♫Look What I've Done!♫ 21:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been a slow-moving sequence, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] but they'll be back. Kablammo 21:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

And it continues: [13][14][15]; repeated requests to discuss are being ignored. Kablammo 08:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I've put a three-day semi on it, maybe that will discourage them. --Golbez 09:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Burntsauce and edit summaries[edit]

Burntsauce (talk · contribs) has been asked on three separate occasions by three seperate users to start using edit summaries as his edits are either adding {{unreferenced}} tags to articles, prodding an article, tagging the article for speedy deletion or AfDing an article. As he uses no tags for these and edits large varieties or articles at a time it's impossible to know what he is doing to articles without going through each and every edit (as seen here). There would be no problem if he was actually editing articles but as he seems to only add tags to articles while not contributing to any article it makes it a necessity he uses edit summaries. Could an admin please request, or more forcibly, get him to begin using edit summaries? He has ignored and deleted every request on his talk page to begin using edit summaries. –– Lid(Talk) 02:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can force him to use edit summaries. If he doesn't want to, then let him be. bibliomaniac15 An age old question... 02:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It is when the edits are deletion requests, part of their policy requires an edit summary so its known the article has been listed for deletion (eith afd, prod or speedy). –– Lid(Talk) 03:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Notification that one has proposed an article for deletion is a courtesy, not a requirement. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
While I would agree that drive-by cleanup tagging without edit summary is a rude and unhelpful thing to do, drive-by deletion nomination without edit summary crosses the line into disruptive behaviour.
Think about it–suppose that one editor has an article watchlisted. This editor assumes that an edit by another etablished editor (Burntsauce, in this cause) is probably reasonable, or at least non-vandalism. (Figure it was only a eleven characters, and WP:AGF.) The article disappears five days later, because the edit was actually to add a PROD tag.
Burntsauce has been here for three months. Either he learns to use edit summaries for major edits (edits that dramatically alter an article's content, or edits which may result in an article's deletion) or he loses his editing privileges. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
We can't force him to do so, but indeed it is pretty rude and unhelpful to drive-by slap a cleanup tag without making an effort to explain why you feel it deserves that cleanup tag, through edit summaries or the talk page. Krimpet (talk) 03:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much agree with the above. It makes him a jerk in these instances, but nothing we can do. -Mask? 03:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You can notify him of this thread. Maybe that would change his habits. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I have asked Burntsauce to provide descriptive edit summaries when he nominates articles for deletion in the future. Please notify me if he should fail to do so in the future; I am prepared to take any necessary enforcement action. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it's improper to nominate articles for XfD or PROD without any notification in the edit summary. If the editor has been pointed to the deletion policy, asked to comply, yet doess not change his behavior then it becomes an issue for enforcrment. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 08:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

How long is too long?[edit]

Resolved: Joxerman blocked. EVula // talk // // 15:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Joxerman (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) recently vandalized Atlantic Records, and when I went to look at his talk page, I noticed that he had well, numerous last warnings from about 20 days ago. The Vadalism report page doesn't really specify a "reasonable" time period in between vandalism attacks to get it listed there, so i'm kinda wondering what is the acceptable time frame? 07:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Hmmmm... I never seen a vandal only account getting warned again numerous times. Usually for most, if they continue to vandalise after their fourth and final warning given to them, they will be blocked indefinitely. There isn't any specific time frame I guess. It really depends. Terence 07:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I count at least 3 "last warnings", then the guy stops, and continues again with a good edit, then a copycat vandalism that is causing problems at Atlantic Records. Surely one of the last warnings counts as the final warning? 07:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

He was blocked before this discussion started! Often it's not worth an admins time to paste blocked messages on these troll's accounts so it's worth looking at the block log. Thanks/wangi 07:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Warnings are not relevant if the account is only used for trolling/vandalism as the block log statement and the user's contributions indicate. We usually block vandalism-only accounts for an indefinite period of time. If you see our policy page regarding blocks, which is WP:BLOCK, you can see under the section titled Duration of blocks it states the following: blocks on types of user accounts considered disruptive are typically of indefinite duration. I should also point out that indefinite is not equivalent to infinite, users can always appeal their indefinite blocks and there have been many cases where user's who used accounts solely for vandalism have promised to stop in order to have their accounts unblocked.--Jersey Devil 08:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Disrupting editing and personal attacks by Rert2[edit]

Rert2 is a single purpose account (See: contributions) he disrupts discussions at the Talk:Audio_mastering by attacking me personally. He continues to place an external link to an book, written by a mastering engineer on the subject of mastering. (See: [16][17][18][19] disregarding the fact that there is a template at the talk page that urges all editors to discuss any proposed external links or additions to the present article. In the past, such type of links have been dismissed as inappropriate, per WP Links normally to be avoided. First of all, his personal attacks have been unwarranted and geared to divert attention (See: [20][21][22] He claims here that I call myself a "spammer" [23][24] [25] and he had been warned 4 times to stop (See: [26][27][28][29]) In addition, another user who goes under "VinylJoe" seems to be in connection or in agreement with rert2 and without further discussions. (See [contributions]. This raises the possibility that Rert2 maybe using sock puppetry to get a greater consensus for the inclusion of said inappropriate external link. I hope you can help stop this disrupting and bad faith user. Thank you. Jrod2 00:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I have looked through all the links that you provided shows that disruptive editing by Rert2. but I think that he might have made numerous sockpuppets to disrupt the wikipedia. Daniel 5127 03:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet needing attention[edit]

Trolldor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is restoring content that has been deleted, originally created by Eternal dragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). This includes creating amusing redirects like Psycho bitch to Paris Hilton, etc. I smell WP:SOCKs. Could someone please block? Flyguy649talkcontribs 09:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Mike18xx (talk · contribs)[edit]

Mike18xx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is a disruptive editor who frequently engages in incivility, tendentious editing, and edit warring, as demonstrated by his block log. he has shown complete disdain for Wikipedia policy for well over a year now, and he continues unabated- with recent incivility (i.e. [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36]), edit warring (for which he was blocked recently, please see his contributions post-block), tendentious editing (i.e. [37], [38][39]). he also refers to me abusively as "Intaqallah", both on- ([40], [41]) and off-wiki, the latter being when he was unashamedly soliciting meatpuppets to "vote-away" in an AfD and edit war on select articles, in the interests of gaming Wikipedia. he does not heed the warnings given to him by multiple administrators, and his talk page is testament to that. ITAQALLAH 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you want us to do about it? ViridaeTalk 11:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
whatever you deem reasonable in ceasing the personal attacks, incivility, and other inappropriate behaviour. i do request some sort of intervention, apologies if i wasn't specific with that. ITAQALLAH 12:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that Itaqallah should cool down a bit. He himself reverts at least as much as Mike18xx, and misspellings of his user name such as "Intaqallah" can hardly be seen as "abusive", unless one is somehow very focused on finding "reasons" for making allegations of "personal attacks". If Itaqallah (better check that again for typo's, or it will come back hard on me it seems...), is so sensitive about how other editors spell his user name, then perhaps he could choose a new more common English user name, that other editors are more likely to remember the spelling of. This being said, Itaqallah has been extremely active in his attempts to get users that disagree with his personal opinions removed and banned from the English Wikipedia, and among other things he has previously made attempts to get me banned from at least parts of the 'pedia [42]. Perhaps Itaqallah should try to work with other editors instead of harassing them with his constant attempts to get them banned. For now it seems that he haven't made a single contribution to Mike's discussion page, except for a couple of templates regarding an image. In my opinon, Itaqallah should consider actually working with people, instead of harassing them with requests about them get banned. -- Karl Meier 12:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This issue is more serious than "Itaqallah should consider actually working with people" Karl. My main concern would not be Mike 18xx's uncivility or his 9 times blocks, mainly for uncivility, but solliciting meatpuppets. This issue re solliciting meatpuppets at Faith Freedom International blog has been discussed a couple of months ago here at the AN/I and now it is getting disruptive with Tauphon (talk · contribs) as well. So action needs to be taken. I cannot do anythng as i've been involved in a debate w/ Mike in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikiislam (conflict of interests?) and probably my action would not be appropriate as my username would be a "not-so-curiously Middle Eastern surname" for Mike 18xx. So which is important? "Itaqallah needing to work better w/ others" or all these disruptions and uncivility? Meatpuppeting should stop once and for all and Mike 18xx should consider actually working with people in a civil manner. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 13:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't see why it should be a problem that an editor go to a website that he has created an article about, and mention this on the sites forum. The users of the websites is likely to be some of the best informed people regarding what perhaps makes it notable, and their input might very well be useful in the process of determining whether or not it is indeed notable and should be kept or deleted. Another fact is that the point about soliciting meat-puppets doesn't make sense either. First, an AfD is not a vote, it is a debate, second, any "votes" from new and/or unregistered contributers doesn't count. It doesn't make sense to blame him for the actions of Tauphon. Mike, like all other editors is only responsible for his own actions, and he has as far as I know never supported him in any wrong doing anywhere. Any speculations about what might have motivated him to come here is also only just that; Speculations that is entirely irrelevant to Mike's good standing on Wikipedia. What I frankly more worried about is Itaqallah's obvious stalking of editors outside Wikipedia, where he take it upon himself to monitor various forum's for comments made by Wikipedians, in order to attack them here. As you properly know, this is not the first time he has used the results of his off-site monitoring efforts to attack people here. As for his comments regarding your surname, I'd wish he haven't done that. As an administrator that actually seems to genuinely care about remaining reasonably neutral, I don't think you deserve to have such accusations and suspicions raised against you. I don't know if he has already apologized for it, but perhaps he will do the right thing if you ask him? As for his block log, I believe it is also important to notice that he has only been blocked one time the last eight months, and that was for a 3RR. The other issues in the block-log seems to be mostly a thing of the past. I believe the best solution would be that Itaqallah give up his project monitoring editors outside Wikipedia and end his constant attempts to have editors disagree with banned. Mike should on the other hand be more careful about what he accuses people off in heated moments and remember that this is against policy. It would properly help to clean the air a lot if he admit that he was wrong about making such accusations and insinuations. -- Karl Meier 15:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, as you've noted from my words, all i ask from Mike 18xx is to behave in a civil manner and avoid controversies. He's just not a newbie. We don't have to waste our time arguing about matpuppeting. It is just highly inappropriate according to the policy. We don't have to waste our time arguing about Mike 18xx meatpuppeting: Everyone please attend to the revert war on Wikipedia's FFI page concerning Intaqalla's repeated attempts to marginalize and POV the WikiIslam section. All I need are one or two people to revert. Please also keep track of whether or not Intaqalla violates Wikipedia's 3RR policy. So as you see, the solliciting isn't limited to votes but to edit warring and game the system to get someone else blocked for 3RR. Noway!
As for my username, i just don't need an apology as it doesn't matter if someone calls me X or "my mamma". He is invited to read these quotes.
  • "We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box." - Anon.
  • "They stick you with those names, those labels -- ‘rebel’ or whatever; whatever they like to use. Because they need a label; they need a name. They need something to put the price tag on the back of." - Johnny Depp -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Karl, i don't really have the time to deal with much of what you wrote about me - not only is much of it pretty fanciful, you certainly are not an impartial party here given our history. you noted that Mike had only one block in the past eight months. that would appear reasonable, were it not for the fact he went on a hiatus in October, returning days before he was blocked again. you employ an incredible amount of spin to downplay Mike's soliciting of meatpuppets, gross incivility, and his deliberate baiting, yet you appear quite eager to take pot-shots at my own person for issues which you have blown out of proportion. ITAQALLAH 17:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Itaqallah: I am sure that you don't have much time replying to comments about your stalking and endless attempts to have editors that disagree with your personal opinions banned. Tracking down Wikipedian's down off-site must be a time consuming business. It is true that Mike18xx was not very active on Wikipedia during a few months, and it is also true that he was "welcomed" back by you with sometimes sarcastic comment such as "having trouble logging in Mike?". Anyway, you don't have to reply to my comments. You just have to end your crusade to have editors disagreeing with your personal opinions banned. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
FayssalF: To post what was posted at that forum is of course the most appropriate one can think of, but at the same time I believe off site staking of Wikipedian's is something that much worse. I believe it is something that can really discourage a lot people from editing here. I still remember BhaiSaab who took his off-site stalking as far as calling the workplace of a person that he disagreed with. The intend of his off-site stalking I believe was to drive people he disagreed with away from the site, just like Itaqallah use his off-site "investigations" to get rid of people that he disagree with. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Karl Meier, it should go without saying that off-wiki solicitation of meatpuppetry is inappropriate, and I see nothing wrong with Itaqallah keeping an eye on it. Can you blame him, seeing as he's been twice been specifically identified as an enemy editor? Soliciting meatpuppetry is bad enough, but urging FFI participants to scrutinize particular editors borders on harassment, and is completely unacceptable. See WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a battleground.Proabivouac 01:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I had extensive interaction with him on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jihad Watch (2nd nomination), and not in an exactly "allied" way - however, I never found him to be especially incivil, or in any way disruptive - rather, he just seems to be determined, outspoken, and edits with feeling. I actually quite liked discussing with him - although my opinion on the matter was eventually disagreed with by the debate, I still think my discussions with him played an important role. --Haemo 21:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh I don't know. I picked more or less the top four contributions of his just now [43], [44], [45] and [46] and in my view there isn't a collegial edit in the bunch. I'm not sure this user has learned much from previous blocks. I don't think I'd care to edit in the same areas as him as it would be less than pleasant. That's the definition of a (mildly) disruptive editor if you ask me. I admit bias, I've blocked him before after he didn't heed warnings to be less disruptive in his approach. I'd support at least an admonishment that his approach is in need of changing. But of course, pure civility blocks don't often work. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Assuming that there has been an effort to resolve this dispute, a user-conduct RfC might be considered. I suppose this section qualifies as such an attempt if there has not been one already, and I urge Mike18xx to respond to it in a productive spirit.Proabivouac 00:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

All measures should be preventive and not punitive. Following this logic, Mike 18xx should refrain from meatpuppeting and chill out in order to avoid being uncivil. If there was no meatpuppetry there would have been no off-site stalking. Anyone has the total legitimate right to follow my off-site activities which are directly related to the functioning of wikipedia. In this case, Itaqallah found out that there is a massive meatpuppetry based on the All I need are one or two people to revert strategy. Would you accept to ask people to do the same Karl? I am certain you wouldn't. This is an unacceptable thing in wikipedia. We stand firm against harming the smooth process of how stuff work here. Itaqallah doesn't go foruming, voting and disrupting the off-wiki site. Mike 18xx has been doing just that. So i don't quite understand how you legitimate Mike's actions by accusing Itaqallah of something that wikipedia has no business w/. One is free to browse any page in the net and report to wikipedia about things that could harm it. I tell those people that We don't vote and we don't count them & We do not encourage edit warring indeed- we just discuss. I'll leave the civility issues for anyone else who might be interested to discuss them with Mike. So whether he would follow out train or else he could just easily change at the next station. There are many other busy passengers as there are trains. We don't need passengers avoiding payment (come to vote once in a year) and we need our train to preserve and protect its standards so we can attract more passengers (new editors who have much more to give to this project than a single seasonal vote). Anyway, it is time for the user in question to respond. Itaqallah has already said his bit. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, please.... To paraphrase Rodney King, Can't we all just be honest? They say I'm tendentious, uncivil and distruptive -- my goodness, you'd almost think I was being accused of not getting my facts right in the articles...except I'm not being accused of that here. In fact, I'd submit that this business is going the way it's going because I am getting my facts right in the articles, and some people find it very unpleasant when a cherished belief is skewered on the spit of a reference. To boil this broth down to its essence, FayssalF and Itaqallah do not appreciate the contributions of many editors (of which I am only one) to various Islam-relating articles, and are well-versed in laying about the Administrative Cudgel to get their way. This has been going on for years, and I doubt it's going to stop anytime soon. I see little to alter my expectations that it's probably going to get worse in the future. Personal mail: I urge you to respond to them with a productive spirit, aiming to address these complaints and resolve the dispute. --Proabivouac. I receive strong indication that there will never be any satisfactory "resolution" to the "dispute" short of complete "Submission" (a double-entendre) before the concerted campaign to savage articles by bad-faith AfDing absolutely everything in sight and drawing upon their own networks of supporters to swing in and post "delete"s regardless of merit. What can't be deleted will be neutered, merged, smooshed, crunched, reverted, marginalized and mangled down into as small of a nearly invisible and innocuous a pellet as possible. Maintaining a "productive spirit" is extraordinarly difficult amidst such destruction.
You will do whatever you are going to do, and whatever the resultant effect upon article veracity is will in turn affect Wikipedia's credibility as a source of accurate and pertinent information in matters occupying the great void between dry scientific obscura and cartoon episode guides. Such credibility is forfeit in the blink of an eye in the internet age, and, once lost, virtually impossible to recover.--Mike18xx 05:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mike18xx, think practically: let's suppose just for the sake of argument that Itaqallah and FayssalF want you gone, as you say, because you are adding facts to the articles that they don't like. Okay. They can't just say that, because that's not against policy, so they point to things like incivility, meatpuppet solicitation and edit-warring instead. Okay. So don't leave yourself vulnerable by doing them. There, you see, I've accepted your assumptions at face value, without judgment or rebuttal, and the way forward is still exactly the same.Proabivouac 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
We want you gone or not gone. Choose your train. I am focusing on MEATPUPPETING. It is in bold. I am not talking about your uncivility (i am proud of my name as you are - plus don't forget that your username is biblical and therefore it is middle-eastern as well. So next time be accurate and say Arab or Muslim so people would understand better what you mean). So talk about it. Don't talk about your edits as i haven't mentioned them at all. I may not like edits of a dozen of editors but still this is wikipedia where anyone can edit. Meatpuppeting encouraging edit warring is not acceptable. Instead of aknowledging what you've done wrong you are still trying to talk about cakes. We got rules here. As per Proabivouac, don't leave yourself vulnerable by doing them. So again and again, you stop or you'll be stopped. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I know perfectly well why you don't want to talk about article veracity, FayssalF. As regards to the rest, I dare you to claim with a straight face that Wikipedia Muslims aren't organized. Why, look at this! See? Everybody's doing it -- except that one side isn't mounting a hypocritical jihad over artificial differences in order to silence its critics.--Mike18xx 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
that's right. myself and Matt57, a user who i frequently disagree with (to put it lightly), are part of a cabal, because he asked me to prove Ibn Warraq was a reliable source (which he isn't). you've shot yourself in the foot in spectacular fashion, Mike, and have simply vindicated peoples' comments about your approach. ITAQALLAH 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mike18xx. Till this moment, you haven't answered and defended yourself re the accusations which are backed by facts above. Failing to do that, i'd consider this thread as a waste of time and choose another path as per Proabivouac → RfC. What do you think? Would you acknowledge your wrongdoings and promise to stop them or would you gamble by going thru an RfC? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To chime in, I only recently came across this user in the Jihad Watch AfD. That and the post history shows very clearly a user with an anti-Islam axe to grind, with "not-so-curiously Middle Eastern surname" being a rather notable slur. Tarc 13:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

A quick look through your contributions on articles such as Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and Hamas makes it obvious to me that you yourself are not entirely without opinions, Tarc. I can understand that you may be annoyed that the article that you mention above wasn't deleted, and that Mike voted against your wishes, but the media attention it has received should have made it obvious to you that the articles subject was clearly and without any doubt notable. The debate just reflected that reality. -- Karl Meier 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Karl, what can be said about X can be said about Y. Please focus on the issue or else we would just fill this thread w/ unnecessary talk. People are talking about incivility, edit warring and i personally focus on meatpuppeting. We got all these issues and you are talking about the opinions of someone else? Irrelevant and i am afraid if this goes on i'd just consider it as an avoidance to discuss the issues on hand. Mike is being accused w/ incivility and meatpuppeting and that are supported by facts presented by Itaqallah. So let's talk about incivility and meatpuppeting. Would Mike18xx aknowledge that? If yes, would he promise to stop it? Talking about anything else outside this scope would be irrelevant. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The accusation that Tarc made was that Mike18xx is somehow biased in his contributions. I believe it is very relevant to see such accusations in the light of what appear to be the opinions of the accuser himself. In Tarc's case, a quick look through his contributions gives me reasons to believe that his opinions are very different from the opinions of Mike18xx. -- Karl Meier 06:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why that has any bearing on the accusation - if Bill O'Reilly told me Ted Kennedy was a drunk, does that affect the truth of the allegation? Moreover, I don't see why "bias" is a big deal, in either direction - the point is if they meet Wikipedia standards for good editing practices. --Haemo 06:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we get back to the subject please? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Tarc wrote that Mike18 has an "anti-Islam axe to grind". Whats wrong with that? Some people like Islam here, some dont. It shows up in our edits. If anyone hates candy, they'll go to the Candy article and talk about its harmful effects. Someone who loves candy will put in the benefits of Candy. Thats how an article is made from different viewpoints. Same is the case with Islam. I raised this issue of "POV" on a Talk page of a policy here but no one responded there. I dont like Islam, there and it shows up in my edits. There are many people who like Islam a lot and that shows up in their edits. I dont see anything wrong with that. All that matters is that viewpoints contributed are relevant, balanced with each other, sourced and scholarly etc, thats all. --Matt57 (talkcontribs) 13:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
In response to Karl, yes, I have a certain point of view. We all do. The problem is that a single-minded POV coupled with such a vile and bigotry-tinged attitude is what leads people like Itaqallah to drag people like mike into the administrative noticeboard. Don't think for a moment that I am comparable to this person. And no, I was not "upset" that the article was not deleted. That was a rather silly/spurious comment to make. Finally, if you're going to trawl though my contributions, then be sure to take note that they run the gamut from the Brady Bunch to Gertrud (novel), as well as Middle East affairs. Tarc 14:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree w/ Matt. Tarc intervention was out of line and discussing it further would be just a waste of time and space. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I must say, FayssalF, your patience is commendable. If there is any ambiguity in our policy re off-wiki mass solicitations to meatpuppetry, there shouldn't be: where the evidence is clear, as it is here, users who do them should be blocked (at the least) until they agree to stop, lest they find another WP issue to become attached to, and be likewise moved to misconduct. All the rest of this is a distraction to our purposes in this thread (though they may not be in an RfC.)
Mike18xx, I don't mean to sound smarmy, but you must not realize how patiently and graciously you're being treated here. Given your unproductive approach to this thread, and in light of your block log, he or any other administrator could have blocked you for a month (for example) without much dissent. An RfC isn't a block, but may be the last step before Arbitration or a community ban.Proabivouac 19:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the details of this dispute, but I was asked to comment. I've just received an extraordinarily bad-faith personal attack on my talk page from Matt57, because I want to use as a source in Islamophobia an academic that he feels is too junior. [47]

He may be right about the source, and I've put up an article RfC to see whether others agree. [48] But in Matt's eyes, the very fact that I might want to use this source shows I'm ... well, I'm not sure ... I'm assuming some sort of Islamist jihadist. He wrote to me: "I've always had some questions in my mind about you but after seeing that you personally contacted Mr. Hasan to retreive [sic] his picture and insert the non-notable opinions of this really unknown user with no authority on Islamic matters (needless to say graduate assistant doesnt count), my questions were answered." [49]

My experience over the last two-and-a-half years of editing is that there's a group of users who consistently make anti-Islam edits, and sometimes extreme anti-Islam edits, behavior that includes trying to get rid of intelligent arguments in defense of Islam, or at least in reply to its critics. To reply to Matt, yes, this is a problem, and it's not how NPOV is supposed to work. We're not here to provide people with a pro- or anti-Islam platform, and I hope you'll try to assume good faith of people you disagree with in future, at least until they demonstrate more clearly that you really do have reason not to assume it. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Slimvirgin, how was any of what I said an "extraordinarily bad-faith personal attack "? This is really funny. All I said that you were putting in the opinions of someone who is not a voice on Islamic matters, let alone notable. What you were putting in was a violation of WP:RS (which I've discussed in more detail on the Talk page there). And it was not I who said Jehanzeb Hasan is junior, it is you who said it. He is not even a Junior scholar on Islam, he is a plain non-notable graduate assitant at a university. Bad or good faith, thats not the issue here. The issue here is, we cant allow any unknown XYZ Graduate Assistant's personal opinions into Wikipedia. And then you contacted him for his picture and captioned it, shining even more light on someone who is completely non-notable and doesnt have any authority on the subject. The inclusion of an opinion is not decided upon whether the argument is intelligent or not, its decided on notablity and its quality as a RS.--Matt57 (talkcontribs) 20:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Matt57, please re-read SlimVirgin's message to you above. She specifically did not say that your personal attack was the disagreement about the validity of the source, but that it was specifically your message on her Talk page where you were making vague allegations and innuendos about her person or character, "I've always had some questions in my mind about questions were answered". Please read our WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL policies. Crum375 21:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

New block for Hayden5650[edit]

This user well known for disrupting behavior just came back for a blocking (more info at User talk:Hayden5650 and User_talk:, but it seems he did not corrected the demeanour (just to quote yesterday's "euthanasia of Jews"). Personally, I gave him some time ago an initial advice, then I made a presentation of who this user is. However, the verbal violence increased (just to mention Romani issues), or repeated abusing words like Gypsies, Negroes and so on. Now he is following me in my edits, opposing me, in all kind of fields he has no knowledge about, deleting my talk [50], [51]. and abusing me racially [52], [53].

What do you think about considering this case for a permanent community ban? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have given my opinion here. --Kuaichik 14:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll exercise my right of reply after work, but after my block all I have done is revert a few of Desiphral's edits, (her edits were simply the deletion of information), while a discussion can take place to reach a consensus on the matter. --Hayden5650 18:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I also notice that other users are taking the same action in reverting her edits, whilst the topic is up for discussion. --Hayden5650 18:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I am "him", not "her" (this is just part of this user's disruptive behavior). The edit war concerns a category listed for deletion Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_28#Category:Population_groups_of_mixed_ancestry, that is irrelevant for the article Romani people, only used by racist users for Romani bashing. Anyway, this is diversion from the main reason of the presentation of this incident, concerning repeated disrupting behavior in many other contexts (almost all of this users's edits are looking for controversion) Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 18:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm beginning to see your point. But I just don't know. I think only an admin can really decide whether a ban should be issued, and if so, what kind.
Last time we had a vandalism issue, I recommended an admin I know. Should I ask him to take a look at the Romani people talk page again, also asking him to look at this page? Or what? --Kuaichik 15:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ohh, I almost forgot. He's on a short wikibreak. But maybe I can ask him after he comes back if you'd like. --Kuaichik 16:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it may be appropriate, thanks. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 19:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing of CfD by Mais Oui[edit]

The soon-to-close CfD for Category:Current British MPs and its sub-categories has been the subject of partisan canvassing by User:Mais oui! at Talk:Scottish National Party#SNP-related_category_has_been_nominated_for_deletion (see this edit).

The canvassing is both blatantly partisan and is directed at a targeted audience, thereby meeting two of the criteria for unacceptable votestacking set out at at WP:CANVASS#Types_of_canvassing. It concludes with the sarcastic comment:

Please note that although the CFD terminology is "merge", de facto this means deletion. Lovely euphemism...

Several identifiably Scottish editors voters have since joined the CfD in explicit support of Mais Oui's position, altering the balance of votes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me from commenting when I'm an identifiably Scottish voter myself, but so far as I can see there is nothing wrong with him contacting active members of a WikiProject with an interest in the discusion (the Scotland Project, in this case) and with taking the view that it is up to other related projects to sort themselves out. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 13:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Blood Red Sandman, please read WP:CANVASS#Types_of_canvassing. Mais Oui did not contact the "members of a WikiProject", he posted on the talk page of a particular political party, where he presumably hoped to reach editors with a particular viewpoint. Additionally, the message concerned was not neutral, as required by WP:CANVASS. --20:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I came to the discusion because he noted specifiacly on my talk page, and just assumed he had gone through the members of the Scotland Project. Very well, I will leave this to more capable hands if that is not the case. I have changed my attitude to no comment. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 23:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

AfD in limbo[edit]

This AfD appears to be stuck in limbo - Tiswas(t) 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • It appears that due to a technical error this was never listed on the main AfD page, which would explain the lack of participation in the AfD as well as the fact that no one noticed that it needed to be closed for over a month. It appears that someone is re-listing for a new debate. Comments on the original AfD should be incorporated in the new one, and/or the people who previously commented should be notified so they can do so again. Newyorkbrad 16:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It looks like it wasn't formatted correctly or listed in the logs. I tagged it with an afd2, and listed it. Makes sense to me to start the 5 days now, unless someone wants to make a "speedy" solution. --OnoremDil 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The article has now been speedied by User:^demon under CSD G11. WarpstarRider 06:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
...and then un-speedied later that day. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 20:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block of User:Bijanse[edit]

Netsnipe (talk · contribs) has blocked Bijanse (talk · contribs) indefinitely, leaving the following explanation:

"You have now been blocked from editing due to your persistently disruptive edits including inserting poorly written English into articles and repeatly breaking links. If you wish to contribute to the Wikipedia, please do so using your native language at"

Bijanse has one earlier block of twenty-four hours. I've left Netsnipe a message, asking him to lift the block, but I thought that I'd better mention it here too. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Endorse block. I can see few if any useful edits, but several page blankings and insertions of word salad. Not being able to spell in English isn't bad per se, but trying to edit the English language Wikipedia in spite of it is. Support unblock once the user reacts to talk messages and indicates he wants to try to understand how we work here. Sandstein 22:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • General Comment If you don't have a firm grasp of another language, you shouldn't be messing around on that languages Wikipedia. For example, I have a Latin account; I registered it to make a single edit to an article (to add an image from Commons), but made damn sure to explain that I couldn't actually speak the language.[54] If you can't speak English well, keep your contributions here to a minimum. EVula // talk // // 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with Sandstein. "Blocks are preventative, not punitive" goes both ways-it may also mean a block purely for prevention of harm is acceptable, whether or not the person blocked was acting in bad faith. In this case, the block is preventing harmful edits, whether the editor who was blocked intends them to be so or not. If that editor were to post a clear unblock request stating that he's willing to refrain from making such edits until he learns some more, I'd support unblocking him in a second, but right now I just don't see any actually constructive contributions, regardless of intent. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't know, none of the 3 or 4 edits on the 1st page of contribs were that bad (or even reverted for that matter). I don't think we should be blocking good faith (non-vandal) editors quite so fast...RxS 00:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it worying, to put it mildly, that most of those responding have such a poor grasp of our blocking policy. An indefinite block just isn't warranted here — and we don't block people for poor English (if we did, we'd have about twenty or so editors left standing); a block of forty-eight hours would have been fine. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that I was expressing my general opinion about editing wikis in a language that you're not comfortable with, rather than this block in particular. EVula // talk // // 22:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that if this editor apologizes he should be unblocked? KillerChihuahua?!? 22:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with pulling in an article from a foreign language Wikipedia, in untranslated form, to start working on an en.wp version of it? That was created two days ago; had they left it for weeks in untranslated form, that would be a waste of space here, but as a first draft it seems fine to me. Georgewilliamherbert 22:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


His latest sockdrawers are open now the following pages are unprotected - Tommy Dreamer, Rob Zicari, Janet Romano and Xtreme Pro Wrestling. Admins required to play whack a mole please. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 23:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Toryugate (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is the first one. One Night In Hackney303 23:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Killed it—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Based on previous experience, there will be plenty more where that one came from. One Night In Hackney303 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Also has targeted Extreme Associates in the past. I have all five on my watchlist. SirFozzie 23:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one: Moneyindabankkk (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) --YFB ¿ 00:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Ryulong say *splat* :-) --YFB ¿ 00:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yougotthefling (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) --YFB ¿ 00:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruckus Tower (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) --YFB ¿ 00:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Ferryut (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log). One Night In Hackney303 01:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Fraction Dynamic (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) --YFB ¿ 02:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Three more in the last 20 minutes--Agent Dude 007 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log), Aproxymately JB196 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log), and Dynamite Flip (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log). Has he been rangeblocked yet? Blueboy96 19:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It's very likely that all the edits are on open proxies (it's been part of his MO for the last few weeks), and he's bragged elsewhere that he has "Thousands of Proxies" to edit from. Hopefully he made a mistake somewhere and we can catch his "Home" IP (for an Abuse Report, etcetera), so the best we can hope for at the moment is to get his Open Proxies blocked (which does help the project) over at Check User. SirFozzie 20:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Platanogenius and Sockpuppets[edit]

  • Paneiro (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) Sockpuppet of blocked user Platanogenius. Warned 3 times for vandalism [63] . Then leaves a mocking statement on the talk page. Please block. "Haha!! Don't worry, my friend. I will continue to undo all your sad attempts. Using websites is a simple and lazy form of getting information. I would also suggest you to not vandalize other people work and twist it for unknown purposes."[64] Please block. YoSoyGuapo 17:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

same old story look at some of the contributions [65] [66] [67] [68] removing of links [69] , changing of demographics [70] , and same old removal of cited material [71] 04:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

JB196 sock[edit]

Ferocious Driver (talk · contribs) whack-a-mole. –– Lid(Talk) 12:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Both blocked. Riana 13:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Oops, got distracted. Gone. Riana 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Golf hitter (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) - *sigh* - Alison 19:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Both blocked - Alison 19:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dynamite Flip (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) next
(oops, you got him already.) SirFozzie 19:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Phaedriel did :) - Alison 19:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Has he been rangeblocked yet? Hopefully that'll stem the tide--and someone ought to get ahold of his ISP too. This is asinine in the extreme.Blueboy96 20:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as i know we dont have a range or even if one is available. He has a pretty consistent MO so he is easy to spot and block. Ive seen far worse puppeteers. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Can someone block the remaining unblocked accounts please? Checkuser confirmed the same open proxy.

Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 00:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

 Done - tagged and bagged. *sigh* - Alison 00:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

User TDC[edit]

This user has taken it upon himself to provoke an edit war. In the past he wanted some information deleted, then stopped discussing thereby implicitly accepting another version. Now, three months later returns to Military Commissions Act of 2006 and without discussion redeletes the material. I asked him to first discuss and explain his incorrect edit summaries. He refuses, reverts and claims I have to disprove his POV, which BTW I did in Februari and he never responded to. Evidently this will lead to something unfortunate. Could some uninvolved administratot look at the edit history and talk page both at Military Commissions Act of 2006 and command responsibility and determine whether his actions are appropriate. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 14:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I think a sample of the talk page would more than demonstrate that my edits are legitimate, well reasoned and that the only response I have gotten from some of the more tenacious editors are personal attacks on me. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You still stand by the edit summary that the WaPo did not mention the MCA? Clearly this user has now officially adopted the technique of edit warring instead of motivating his erroneous arguments. Have you actually read the sources before massively deleting them? As an aside, please point to where I addressed you in an uncivil manner. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 15:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to go through each point in contention and find out what can stay and what should link to the other article being mentioned; philosophically speaking it's bad practice to rehash bits of articles in other articles because that increases the chance of having material in one article not in agreement with that from another. I am also concerned by Nasico's statement that they might have misunderstood some of the sources, but that can be cleared up easily enough.
Also, throwing out the phrase "please WP:AGF" is unproductive and is itself in danger of violating AGF, as the editor making the accusation is not assuming the assumption of good faith. --Edwin Herdman 01:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

SPA sockpuppet used to launch personal attacks[edit]

User:heatedissuepuppet an admitted sockpuppet SPA account is once again involved in trivial editwarring and personal attacks. The editor has already been blocked once. When he was unblocked he said his only purpose was to expose my COI. Even after I revealed my identity, he continues his trivial editwarring first on Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan) and then on Metropolis (English magazine in Japan) [72] [73]. After I added sources within a few minutes User: who appears to be heatedissuepuppet's sock/meatpuppet deleted more information from the Metropolis page. [74]. The editor then placed the following personal attack on his user page. [75].

This editor has a vendetta against me and any article I write on. Other editors who contested the user's unblock [76] noted that this editor is not using the account to protect himself from attack, but using it to attack. This is an inappropriate use of a sockpuppet and would like to ask for a block, a warning, or at the very least that the user use his main account to make the edits.

The editor will try to deflect the issue by pointing out my COI, but if you check my history you will see that I have been editing within policy to remove poorly sourced negative information about my company that he has added on numerous occassions [77] [78], and to add sources where requested. Admin Mangouice said on the COI discussion that, "I feel his behavior on the central articles (Metropolis/Crisscross) was not so problematic, because he's trying to follow policy. I really don't think the removal of negative information was inappropriate: the negative information was out of balance and not well sourced in any of the cases. Generally speaking, as long as they stick to policy, people are allowed to edit with a conflict". [79] Where I am mentioned in Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan), I have put my sources to uninvolved editors using RFC [80]. -- Sparkzilla talk! 15:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

...then placed the following personal attack on his user page - Noting your obvious conflict of interest in pumping up your free magazine is a "personal attack"? Nope. --Calton | Talk 22:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Invoking an editor's COI is not a way to force poorly sourced material into articles, nor to to disallow properly sourced material, force POV, or as an excuse for personal attacks. Rather than comments from involved editors such as yourself (see your comments here [81], I came here to get the opinion of uninvolved admins on the use of a sockpuppet to launch personal attacks. Thank you. -- Sparkzilla talk! 23:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Carlton's arguments against Monolith magazine are not properly sourced (that or the editor neglected to make them available); without proper sources any such attack is in danger of becoming journalism which is something that Wikipedia does not engage in. As for the rest of it, I'll have to take my distance since I'm not that familiar with it. --Edwin Herdman 01:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Cydevil38 disruption[edit]

Cydevil keeps reverting the template at Template: History of Manchuria despite agreement from the three parties involved to rename the title to the "History of Northeast China":

The three parties - Whlee[82], Wiki pokemon and I - currently involved in this discussion (or debate, if you will) are already trying to work out a solution. I have repeatedly made my rounds on the discussion page explaining the reasons behind my edits. In fact, we have been getting rather close towards a general sense of consensus with what looks like Whlee supporting a "History of Northeast China" template (minor problems notwithstanding) [83].

The template was locked for well over half a month before I requested that it be reopened on the grounds that consensus was reached (see above). Cydevil38 made no attempts to join in on the discussion and continues to unilaterally change the status quo. He dismisses my points, saying that it "wasted his time" and was deemed (by him) to be "pointless":

I did participate in the discussion, though I didn't waste my time responding to every one of your objections that I deemed pointless. [84]

He continues to resort to non sequiturs, saying how most NPOV support his viewpoint (but provides no proof/back up):

Most of the cited sources refer to Manchuria as, well, Manchuria. And I've already made my point and it still stands - you cannot selectively apply NPOV sources for one POV while denying its application for the other. [85] (Note that Manchuria and NE China are the same thing, and the object of the entire discussion was to rename the title to "History of Northeast China")

We have given him well over a week to raise his objections/concerns, but he made no attempts to raise objections. He continues to unilaterally revert the template to his liking, at the same time, removing additional information agreed by other parties (e.g. Donghu) [86] [87] [88]. Assault11 15:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to inform the administrators that there was a delicate consensus on the "History of Manchuria" template at the Goguryeo article, and creation of this template, which is based on no reliable source, was made to prevent constant revert warring.[89] Assault11 being one of the few digressors continues to dispute this consensus by furthering his POV. I have raised my objections in the talk page, and I saw progressing discussion made mosstly by Assault11 and Wikipokemon as repetitive and rather pointless to the relevant issues at hand, that the common English word for Manchuria is Manchuria, not Northeast China or Dongbei. Even most of the cited sources that Wikipokemon used are entries on Manchuria. Also, what Whlee likely expressed his consensus was to the creation of another template, Template:History of Northeast China, which was created by Wikipokemon. Cydevil38 15:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Also, I would like to point out that compromises were already made to Template:History of Manchuria itself to cater to Assault11's claims.[90] Cydevil38 15:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, nevermind about Whlee not having had a consensus. He actually did, which I didn't remember until now. I've engaged in discussions with him in his talk page, and I have addressed his concerns. Please see his talk page.[91] And mine.[92] Cydevil38 16:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38, you participated in the discussions with only one thing in mind - bringing up irrelevant topics into the discussion [93] and making ad hominem attacks against those have different viewpoints than you [94] [95]. There was not one instance where you responded to the questions we have asked. We have been in discussion for over half a month, and you had more than a week to respond to the last few points that have been made before I requested reopening.
I have made many attempts to discuss with you on these matters. You did not reciprocate, now who's fault is that? I asked many questions regarding the historical usage of Manchuria, yet you didn't utter a single word. If you are incompetent in NE Chinese history (as you stated yourself [96]), that is not my problem. You chose to not be involved in the discussion process. If you think my points are "pointless," then that's too bad. As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to alter what has been agreed upon.
By the way, the "consensus" you were referring to was a straw poll. I have pointed out that - according to WP:DR, a survey cannot generate consensus. Also, there is no Wikipedia policy that forbids me from renaming a template after a temporary dispute settlement. Assault11 21:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to clear up any possible confusion, despite sharing the first four letters of our usernames, Cydevil has nothing to do to me. Though if I were to create an evil alter ego, "Cydevil" is a good place to start looking for a name. --Cyde Weys 04:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

User:John celona[edit]

Please refer to Special:Contributions/John celona for the past 24 hours. I would appreciate someone who has not had recent involvement in the BLP-related discussions giving me a reality check on whether this user appears to be providing sincere, if extreme, feedback or if he is trolling a sensitive deletion debate. Please note that I am not asking for a block or anything; I just need to recalibrate my meter on some things. Thanks. Newyorkbrad 15:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like trolling to me, I've given him a final warning for disruption and making personal attacks, if he continues, I'll block [97]. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
He may be sincere, but he's adding nothing of value at all to the DRVs and for all intents and purposes I agree with Ryan, this is borderline trolling.--Isotope23 16:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
On the precedent applied at [98], this user should be blocked immediately for making personal attacks, for a minimum of 9 hours. DanielT5 21:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Sorry, this was a bit OTT on my part. DanielT5 22:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It's a tense discussion that's going on, and blocking any participant should be very much a last resort; I just wanted to get another view on this. Thanks. Newyorkbrad 21:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I might have been minded to block in those circumstances had NYB not expressly said (as someone involved in the discussion and the main target) that he didn't think the block would be appropriate/helpful. Those DRV posts and especially this one [99] cross the line in my opinion and I would support strong action if trolling from this user continues. WjBscribe 22:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, more trolling at Elizabeth Smart (abductee) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elizabeth Smart (abductee) ... if ever there were a time to block for disruption... --Iamunknown 23:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours for trolling and attacks post my warning. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

More cow tipping fun[edit]

Can someone please scrutinize recent edits/reverts at cow tipping? My concern is the actions of C.m.jones (talk · contribs) who has been reverting to old versions, leaving invalid warnings, etc. Thanks. Not a dog 20:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, something's not right. YechielMan 20:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Protected [100]. Navou 03:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Administrator SWATJester[edit]

Resolved: No admin intervention required. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

swat jester A new administrator has sent me a message stating that he/she deleted the official company logo I uploaded to my sandbox user space called Atala T LLC was deleted due to "lack of a fair use rationale" and I clearly made clear that the Logo was fine and did not need to be deleted or tampered with. He/She also made a thret saying to "not use your user space to accuse other editors of things. You are treading dangerously close to being blocked for disruption." I felt disrespected and offened by what he said and typed him/her a message out of anger, I did not include and rude or innapropreate laugunage or dialoge. Another user Slavin has been mentoring me on wikipedia recently and has been a great deal of help with my articles so that they do not have to go though any deleting or tampering with other users or administrators. I really do find it strange that every single last article I tried to fix or create my self has been deleted and It makes me wonder at times. The first time I worked on my atricle Atala T LLC another user called Umalee has deleted it a coupple of secodns after I created it which really made me upset and angry becuase 1. I spent more than 5 hours on the article perfecting it and adding accuare facts and then this guy comes and deleted it and 2. When he responds to my talk page he says he searched on it but had the nerve to spell it wrong! It is very frusturating creating a new article from scratch and having to re enter things the right way they are supposed to be. I am verry tired of these people deleting my things and non caring that they did so and exspect you not to be angry, now I know to assume good faith but everytime my articles are the ones getting deleted! Don't you find that strange also?! Please reply on my talk page. --Muriness 01:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Swatjester deleted an image with no fair use rationale per WP:FAIR... the other issue would appear to be based on the fact that the article you linked has no assertion of notability per our notability guidelines for a corporation. I'm sorry you've been having a negative experience here, but I don't see anything that would require admin intervention.--Isotope23 01:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Hey there. You (Muriness) might not be aware of this, but it's official Wikipedia policy that non-free images cannot be used on Talk pages. It doesn't matter if it's a copyrighted photograph you took yourself; if it's not got a free use rationale or appropriate license, it can't stand. --Edwin Herdman 01:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The article was deleted by someone else under G11. It was clearly corporate spam. He's trying, unsuccessfully it appears to rewrite in user space, but if not deleted under G11 when it makes its way back to article space, it will definitely die a painful death at AFD. As for the image, I told him several times that it was in user space, as did others. He just refuses to listen. The comments on blocking were for trolling in userspace. 10 seconds on his usertalk page, and userpage history will establish that. Can we close this and move on? SWATJester Denny Crane. 03:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

10 seconds is right. Swatjester's actions were correct, Muriness needs to take some time to understand the fair use policies (not to mention WP:CORP). I'm sticking that "resolved" box on this thread. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

3RR plus, without an/3RR action.[edit]

For four days, there has been a slow boiling revert war going on. I reported it at 3RR. Nothing has happened. Since then, I've appended extra Reverts which illustrate the nature of the problem. The offending editor has asserted an WP:ILIKEIT attitude regarding his change of images, but hasn't responded significantly to either editor who has tried engaging him, instead choosing to just keep hammering away. Since 3RR isn't doing anythign about it, I'm bringing it here. I wish I didn't have to hit multiple boards, but it's not forum shopping if the first store isn't open at all. Here's the report I submitted there:

User refuses to use talk, relies upon OR determinations of popularity, and in his last conflict, offered to 'bust a cap' in the next person who argued with him. I didn't give a 3RR warning, but he's not a newer user, and his stubborn insistence along the WP:ILIKEIT line makes him unlikely to change. As such, a block's definitely needed. I got so frustrated, I vio'd 3RR myself, but immediately self-reverted. However, he needs to stop. ThuranX 04:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have added a 5th revert, just outside of the 24 hour mark, and without him signing in. However, signature phrases in his argument' very camp', arguments to recentism, and genreal comments regaring Two-face being a serious character indicate it's the same editor, trying to WP:GAME 3RR. I can go through a checkuser if needed, please let me know at my talk. ThuranX 04:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I have now added a 6th revert in this slow boil. He's been reverted and on contact with another editor, User:DrBat, and hasn't listened to that editor either. Please put a halt to this. He violated 3RR, and got nothing, and continues to revert war despite opposition. ThuranX 23:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Can an Admin follow up on this? thank you. ThuranX 23:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Prices and catalogs[edit]

Some feedback is requested on Talk:List of Virtual Console games (North America), whether the list should include pricing information on individual video games, or whether these are considered trivia. >Radiant< 14:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is tricky. I believe this should be discussed w/in a policy or a MoS scope. However, i'd say we are an encyclopedia where we gather as much information as we can, BUT pricing? Ummm, prices change every once and then and if we are going to include them we must be able to update them and i don't think we can manage that if we are going to include all prices for all products in wikipedia. Leave that job to the marketing guys working for their companies. They have their own websites (which can be reached from here by clicking on external links) where they can list and update their prices. We don't represent them. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Another article that falls under the price guide issue: Xbox_Live_Arcade#Xbox_Live_Arcade_games_for_the_Xbox_360. RobJ1981 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Really annoying and bothering as an issue. But is this the right place to discuss this? What about the village pump or wikiprojects? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • No, I don't ask people to discuss it here, I'm just notifying people here that we have a discussion on that talk page I mentioned. Please chime in there. >Radiant< 08:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, heck no! No prices. No, no, no, no, no, and more no. Nope. Not at all. It is crossing the very first line of Wikipedia: we are not a place where things are on sale, for sale, or promoted for sale. Listing prices is, first of all, instantly inaccurate, and, second of all, acting as handmaiden to retail. Not a chance, not a way, not at all. Geogre 02:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
DITTTTOOOOO!!!! [WikiProject:Compare Prices]?! -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR as a tool[edit]

Recent events
  1. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: No Block)
  2. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result:self-reverted)
  3. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: Page protected)
  4. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#Smee (formerly Smeelgova) at work; WP:OWN; WP:BITE
  5. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: 72 hours)

I should explain that I edit and usually agree with Smee in the interest of full disclosure to those who don't know. Because of that I've held off posting here to see if anyone more neutral noticed this situation. Now it's reached a point where the fact that Lsi john and Justanother are out to harass Smee by calling almost every edit which contradicts someone else's a "revert" and posting it on the WP:3RR page.

The incidents in bold are especially egregious because they include the same situation: 4. [101] and 5. [102] are one edit apart and both Justanother and Lsi john have called it a WP:BITE as well.

When one considers the fact that Spacecraft is the plural for spacecraft, just like moose is both singular and plural. Fixing mistakes is not biting either. Anynobody 06:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

A full rationale has been provided to Smee. It's a run-of-the-mill reverting warring block, escalated to 72 hours because of past behaviour. Marskell 08:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Marskell you chose the series of edits where Smee was fixing a mistake, which was then re-added by the editors I mentioned as the point where action should be taken and then cite other cases rather than the one you issued the block for.

If the block was issued for correcting a mistake it makes no sense, if you believe the other cases are more worthy of a block then you should have explained what your concerns were but either way it was an innocent mistake on your part. I'm not looking for any repercussions against you, I'm asking for something to be done about the pattern of making complaints on WP:3RR with the only goal being a block of a particular editor.

You said the block wasn't so much for the correction as the other incidents, given that doesn't the posting of a correction seem like looking for ANY excuse to obtain a block? Anynobody 01:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't an innocent mistake or a guilty mistake—it wasn't a mistake at all. I blocked Smee, I've provided numerous explanations on a variety of threads (which you're forcing me to do by continuing to troll on the topic), and I stand by it. Marskell 11:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

correct to blank talkpage?/copyvio[edit]

an IP editor seems intent on blank this section of a talkpage as he claims it "breaks rules/ is a legal threat" - as far as I see, no rules are broken and indeed, if there is a copyvio then editors need to be aware of it. just need a quick second view. --Fredrick day 06:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

He appears to be intent on policing that page for some reason, despite the fact it has no real demonstrable legal threat or copyvio. --Haemo 06:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
However, based on his edits to this] page, I'd bet dollars to donuts it's SanchiTachi back from his self-imposed exile - considering he appears to have a focus on correct naming, and is reinserted very subtle edits that SanchiTachi edit warred over before. --Haemo 06:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
he's currently banned - checkuser maybe? --Fredrick day 06:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I did so, since I need the experience - though it's a pretty thin case, I think I'm right. Too coincidental for my likes. --Haemo 07:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Still at it. The fact that they are so keen to delete a section on copyvio suggests that there might be something to it. If I revert again, I'm in breach of 3RR - however it seems important to me that the text remains there until it has been discussed and we can get to the bottom of the matter. --Fredrick day 16:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Banned? I'd think blocked. SWATJester Denny Crane. 03:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never really under the difference between a indef block and a ban? --Fredrick day 09:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
An block is basically a technical measure to prevent someone from editing, whereas a ban is more like social exile. An indef block can amount to a ban if no admin is willing to unblock the user. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 15:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

possible hack attack in the future[edit]

More of of it. I hate to bring it up but someone should look here and possibly consider an expedited ISP report to Yahoo. I looked at the ISP page and it was very backlogged. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd post this under "nothing to see here" - someone on a talkboard making a lot of big talk - so what? --Fredrick day 08:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Good title. No its ok. At least there's a pointer to it. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Jeff, I suggest you collect this stuff at User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey/Yahoos or some such, there is something to see there, but not much, and not at this moment requiring urgent intervention. You don't want it to get lost in the noise, I think. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Archive it in your personal space Jeff. Fredrick is probably correct though, it looks like typical trolling. I somehow doubt this person is even half as clever as they think they are...--Isotope23 13:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of contacting Yahoo? Threats to bring down or vandalize another website surely can't square with their terms of service. Corvus cornix 21:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Reported using the "report abuse" feature, under the category of Harassment. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 12:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Irrational user on Josh Groban[edit]

Please, could an admin take a look at this mess? I don't understand why SweetTalker is behaving like this. I've tried to be civil, but it's really starting to piss me off. He/she is unbelievably rude on the talk page and in their edit histories. He/she also doesn't seem to understand that Wiki is available to edit by anyone, and they can't just revert any time someone edits what they deem "MY article." Thank you so much. Bouncehoper 23:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I've left a nice comment on his/her talk page about ownership (or, rather, absence of) of articles, and wikified the offending paragraph a little. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I hope this helps. Bouncehoper 01:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The article has been reverted by x42bn6 (talk · contribs) to the previous sourced version sans the WP:POV and WP:OR.--Isotope23 13:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
A little more help from uninvolved editors would help a little, too. The editor still tried to claim ownership. While I definitely think this is in good faith and that this editor will be useful to the article, a few more editors might help. x42bn6 Talk