Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive269

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Hi, I would like to report User:Qurultay who has vandalized several pages, including adding dubious references, and so forth. Note that he is most likely a sockpuppett of banned User:AdilBaguirov as he has send waves of socks recently.Hetoum I 00:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

i've looked at User:Hetoum I contributionrs, it's increddibly disappointing to see such behavior from him, why such attacks??? we dont even know each other, yet such attack. this is testament to fact that Hetoum I has been acting in bad fais and engaging in editwar, by changing back my corection in the Denial of Armenian Genocide page. There I have corrected the word 'Jews' to Israeli, to make it consistent with rest of table list, which lists countries, not ethnicities. What 'dubious references'? There are none such references, all fully per encyclopedia rules. What is this 'sockpuppett' attack? Who is this? Why? Please don't act like this User:Hetoum I. I will be mindful of your contributions now. Qurultay 11:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm less concerned about the Jew/Israeli issue than Qurultay's removal of any mention of the Armenian Genocide from the Pan-Turkism article. Instead, he has made attempts to replace it with a paragraph intended to make Armenians look antisemitic. -- Aivazovsky 13:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Kindly protect or block[edit]

I kindly ask for admin to either block this user or protect pages Denial of the Armenian Genocide and Pan-Turkismas this is clearly a sock for AdilB along with Ehud. I am copy-pasting evidence of this user's harassment from the latest arbcom.

Among many reasons why AdilBaguirov has used socks, is also to have other members who were not restricted with the one revert per week restriction to be blocked. Marshall reverting what he saw obviously as sock was reported by one of those socks. [1] and successfully blocked. More recently Meowy was blocked after Grandmaster reported him for 3RR [2]. While according to checkusers Ehud Lesar who reverted Meowy and caused the block is not Adil, there are reasons to believe he is AdilBaguirov.

Ehud Lesar pretends to be Jew acording to his userpage. [3] He also claims to be part of the Israel Wiki Project while his contribution on Jews is basically limited on things related to Azerbaijan. It seem as a cover. Besides, AdilBaguirov has already pretended to be Jewish with his account Weiszman. Both Weiszman and Ehud Lesar to have some similar editing patterns. First, both started contributing the same month. [4], [5]. In Ehud Lesar case, after his first edit which was on 28 March he stopped editing all together while Weiszman was contributing. Ehud Lesar only resumed edition after Weiszman was banned.

Hours after Ehud Lesar started editing the Church of Kish Qurultay register, while at first his edits seemed in good faith soon after he made edits on the Armenian reference on the Pan-Turkism and extended the edit war on the Denial of the Armenian Genocide. [6]

Hetoum I 18:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor "sock"[edit]

A user I reported here earlier (Gundor Twintle Fluffy) decided he was going to taunt me on my talk page here by telling me to delete his old page because he made a new one and faking his sig by hand and not with tildes so I "wouldn't know what his new account was". As an aside, it's really interesting what the history tab shows you.

Anyway, my point here is that I redirected his old user and talk pages to his new user and talk pages, but I was thinking there might be a cleaner way to do it than what I did, so I've posted here in case it needs to be done differently. It's not like he had any edits of value such that the accounts should be merged, but it's an option. MSJapan 03:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia hand out Darwin awards? :) Tim Vickers 04:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish they did, as he apparently has User:Gundor Twintle Fluffy, User:Dark Grevious, User:Dark Lord Dylan and User: that he edits the others' pages with. He also faked an MfD here and a warning, my sig, and a reply here, then changed the timestamp here. This is stupid and ridiculous, but I'm not going to have him trying to play his petty little games and implicate me superficially. I notified Theresa Knott about this, as she acted on this complaint, but I'd prefer it if it did not sit around. This is sockfarming for some sort of warped socialization, and not for improvement of Wikipedia. Said user doesn't even know how to sign his real sig, yet he's got over 500 edits to talk pages between the four accounts. He might even have more, but I don't have the tools to find them outside of tracking cross-contribs MSJapan 16:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violations by User:[edit]

User: is persistently posting copyrighted material to Wikipedia articles. This user is cutting and pasting the synopsis of TV show episodes from external websites. Almost every one of this user's contributions is identified as a copyright violation by Google. This user has been warned twice, and is continuing to violate copyrights. This user should be blocked. Andrew_pmk | Talk 04:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Gotcha. Left him a last plain warning. If he continues, I will block him. -- ReyBrujo 04:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
He's back again with an obvious copyright violation. Blocked for 31 hours. — Rebelguys2 talk 08:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Persistent removal of "Primarysources|date=July 2007" and "Notability|date=July 2007" tags[edit]

The articles City Harvest Church and Kong Hee keep getting their respective tags removed. - 05:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have spoken to the other user involved, Habbo sg (talk · contribs), and he sounded perfectly willing to discuss this. I believe this incident resulted simply from a lack of communication between those involved. Someguy1221 08:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Someguy1221 (talk · contribs), I was highlighted to this "incident". Dear (talk · contribs), I had reverted your edits as I had seen other users hightlighting their reasons for removing the tags in the talkpage for both City Harvest Church and Kong Hee. Perhaps you can provide your reasons for tagging both articles? Habbo sg 08:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Was this discussion formally closed?[edit]

Resolved: SWATJester Denny Crane. 13:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Zscout370 just unilaterally removed the incident discussion in progress: [7] I am unfamiliar with termination procedures for incidents. Is this appropriate? This incident began with an accusation against me and I need to be sure this matter is formally closed, and that it was not just terminated because the disruptive behavior of my accuser was being discussed. The edit summary removing the discussion said "take it to the talk page" but there are multiple articles where the user is engaged in the same sort of process, which is why discussing it here seems called for. The summary removal of the discussion resulted in this editor's view not being recorded in the thread: [8]

The discussion was terminated when I raised the question of whether BalanceRestored has violated the terms of the block lifting. I hope that editors who are not familiar with the block history on BalanceRestored will read the conditions under which the block was lifted: [9]. You just had a live demonstration of the disruptive behavior that we are facing on multiple articles, and I request some independent opinion on whether the block should be restored. Buddhipriya 07:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Background: BalanceRestored (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) was blocked indefinitely in May for disruptive editing, edit warring and sockpuppetry. His ban was lifted, under the assumption of good faith, by admin Vassyana under under stringent conditions agreed to by the user, which are listed here. Here are links to earlier ANI reports on/by this user: first, second and third, and here are some other articles where he has made similar tendentious arguments (based usually on preview snippets he finds on Google books): Talk:Vedas, Talk:Vishwabrahmin, Indian caste system.
While I understand that the discussion had to be closed because it was becoming too circular and silly (even for this page!) I must point out that closing it here simply means that it the editor has moved to other pages such as Talk:Nastika and Talk:Pranava Veda where there are, unfortunately, no admins and few regular editors to give him a clue. Abecedare 07:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Right, but by removeing an entire thread, it won't get archived, correct? Why not just mark it with {{discussion top}} and {{discussion bottom}}, and ask the editors to move further talk elsewhere? Flyguy649 talk contribs 07:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to closing the discussion, I just want to be sure the closure was done in a formally correct manner. I will cease commenting on the assumption that someone who understands the process will close it out. Buddhipriya 07:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I couldn't undo zscout370's edits due to intermediate revisions. Is there a way to restore it (for archival purposes) without losing edit history ? Here is the lisnk to the deletion [10] Abecedare 08:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that what is needed is to restore the deleted material and tag it as suggested. I do not understand how to do that. Buddhipriya 08:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restored and archived the racial slur discussion. Abecedare 08:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
You missed the comment I made on that thread (which got entangled with a different one due to removal of original thread. --Ragib 08:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I have readded it back now. Abecedare 08:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And here is the latest example of BalanceRestored (talk · contribs)'s hostility: biting a new editor because the latter has a better understanding of WP:NPOV ! I request an admin to take a good look at BalanceRestored's editing history, especially in light of the conditions and assumption of good faith that his previous indef. block was lifted. Abecedare 08:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Doing the proper procedure would have done nothing for this case; the reason why the editor moved to other pages is due to my statement saying take that clusterfuck discussion elsewhere. We can't solve it, it turned into a troll fest and it best to be removed instantly than let it linger for days until a bot comes and deals with it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree that removal of the material was the best approach, as the record of what is said here has potential future value. I am glad that the effort has been made to archive the discussion. I appreciate your postive intent, however. Buddhipriya 08:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Mukhran Machavariani[edit]

Can someone please revert vandalism on the above page, I have already reported the vandal and reverted 3 times, but it is still continuing. Xarr 11:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The IP has been ARV'd. -- Zamkudi Dhokla queen! 11:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism reverted and the article sprotected by Theresa knott. MartinDK 11:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre vandalism involving Clint Boon and associated harrassment of editors[edit]

This is the strangest thing I've yet seen on Wikipedia. There appears to be a coordinated, distributed effort to insert random made-up altercations involving British celebrities and musical acts and Clint Boon from the Inspiral Carpets, usually involving alcohol and serious injury. (Here, have yet another handful.) The IPs are random, the accounts are throwaway, and it seems to have been going on for some time.

I've been reverting this whenever I see it, as has User:Kekslover. Unfortunately they've taken to pestering her on her talk page now, so this has gone beyond mere stupid vandalism and into harrassment.

Short of semiprotecting basically anything British students were into over the course of the 1990s I can't see that there's a solution to this. Any ideas? Chris Cunningham 11:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I would help to clean it up. Is there a regular time/day of the week this happens? If there is a spate of an evening or weekend (UK time) you could let me know on my talkpage and point me toward the active ip's for a short block. LessHeard vanU 12:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe semi-protect Kekslover's talk page to protect her from harassment? --Kaypoh 12:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


Resolved: Page semi-protected.

Last night, JetLover blocked for vandalising my userpage, see here and this. The first edit says "being an asshole to everyone at school". I live in Coventry, UK and go to school. When I traced the IP address, it traced back to Coventry, see this. The user, has only blocked the IP for 31 hours. All of a sudden, the fact that I have a account here has been spread to most people in my year (thats 250 people), so therefore I think my userpage could be up for heavy vandalism later tonight. On the subject on the above IP address, can it be blocked for longer, as I think it could go on the rampage again tomorrow. Someone told me that I could try and create a new account, but given my current status with other users, seeing as I've just been unblocked, I think this is not the best option. Could a admin possibly lock my userpage if vandals strike later tonight? Thought I needed to bring this up. Davnel03 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh and this. Davnel03 16:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the above, I've semi-protected your userpage (which prevents IP's and brand-new accounts from editing it). It will expire in 1 month, but if you want the semi-protection lifted sooner, just ask an admin or mention it at WP:RFPP. MastCell Talk 16:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Doczilla and Wryspy[edit]

I've been looking through the contributions of these two users due to some suspiciously similar activity and suspect sockpuppetry. See this nomination by Wryspy (talk · contribs) for the category "DiMera family", where the argument was "Delete per many, many precedents for deleting these family categories" which sounded familiar to me, and courtesy of google [11] I found the phrase "many, many precedents" is a phrase often used by Doczilla (talk · contribs) in CFD debates, examples here and here.

I also note Doczilla's most recent contribution is a request to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism about the article Jamie Hyneman which has often been edited by Wryspy but never by Doczilla. Both users started early in 2006, both with a lot of edits to the article Infinite Crisis. There is also an interesting pair of edits to wryspy's talk page by Doczilla here and here which looks like the user forgetting which account he is editing from.

Additionally I note both user's have been involved in exposing sockpuppets of the user EJBanks (talk · contribs) see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/EJBanks and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/EJBanks.

I have only spotted a couple of examples where both accounts have voted together in nominations so I don't believe any XFD outcomes have been affected (Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_11#Category:Autistic_people is one, Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_March_3#Category:People_with_autistic_spectrum_disorders is the other) The instructions at WP:RFCU suggest this should be listed here, so I welcome any comments and suggestions of how to deal with this activity. Tim! 17:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


Has received many warnings for vandalism. Has ignored all of them. Continues to vandalise pages. To be blocked please. Mangwanani 18:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. In the future, this type of report should be placed on WP:AIV for faster response. Newyorkbrad 18:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack by admin[edit]

  • As no urgent administrative action appears warranted and this discussion is ongoing at User Talk:JzG, I'm going to archive this. MastCell Talk 19:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The user User:JzG has launched a personal attack against me here [12].
Furthermore, the current debate there seems to be turning out of hand as some of his cronies have come to defend him by using certain straw-man tactics, and I alone cannot defend myself if he and zillions of his cronies are intentionally ignoring half of what I'm saying. Impartial, decent admins are invited to monitor this situation in case it unfurls into chaos.
You will note that this is the 3rd personal attack that User:JzG has launched against me. I will find the other two and post them here. Rfwoolf 18:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to say that you didn't deserve that, but I agree it was over the top. Nobody would tell me to "edit articles or shut up you whining twat" (at least I think not), and that is rather incivil even if you do deserve it. -Amarkov moo! 18:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Dude, your user page was protected for 4 days, 7 months ago. What possible purpose could you have in dragging this up now? Move on. Thatcher131 18:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I like to think that admins are held accountable for their actions in some way, don't you? Anyways to answer your question, it's appropriate right now. User:JzG censored my userpage because of what he called a soapbox piece (which was actually constructive criticism about Wikipedia), and then goes and puts a soapbox piece on his userpage. Seven months later I'm taking the opportunity to point it out, that's all. Now that you've successfully detracted from the issues at hand...Rfwoolf 19:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Rfwoolf, Guy's personal attack does not justify your name-calling ("cronies"). Please refrain from such comments. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 19:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the issues, JzG's comments cited in the diff look like unacceptable NPA violations to me, although I appreciate they may have been taken out of context. WaltonOne 19:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Re: Black Falcon. Whom did I call cronies? Was it a personal attack? I don't remember calling anybody a crony. I don't believe in this case it counts as a personal attack. Perhaps another impartial admin can correct me if I'm wrong Rfwoolf 19:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Misconduct has no statute of limitations in Wikipedia. This is not to say if there was or wasn't misconduct. If someone wants to consider what happened, do it now and then forget about it, shake hand, and resume writing.JonnyLate 19:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

It's perhaps better if Rfwoolf doesn't resume writing, considering this damning evidence Nick 19:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Rfwoolf, if lots of different people are honestly ignoring what you are saying, then perhaps what you are saying doesn't warrant people paying any attention to it. Please consider that you could be in the wrong here as much as anybody else. Nick 19:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Nick, in order to provide me with the right of reply, I'd need to be able to see the link to your quoted "damining evidence". I cannot access it. Please either give me access to it, or explain what it is. Secondly, I always maintain that I could be in the wrong as much as anybody else as a philosophical rule. However, it would be nice if reason and civility were implemented, even logic perhaps, and using straw-men tactics, as you may pick up they are doing, is not nice. The focus of the debate there was supposed to be about censoring my userpage because of soapboxing, and then going and soapboxing on his own page, and the hypocracy thereof. Now go read the debate and see what they're doing -- talking about anything and everything else, bringing up all sorts of dead skeletons to try and discredit me in the discussion. Hense my use of the word cronyism Rfwoolf 19:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I disapprove of this being archived so soon. At least one admin has agreed that JzG violated WP:NPA. What action is going to be done about it? Furthermore I have been deprived of a right of reply over a link by Nick: "Damning evidence". How am I supposed to respond? Also JzG has done a personal attack 2 other times... This unilateral archiving seems blatantly unfair Rfwoolf 19:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Pay attention to the reason for archiving please. Venue of discussion has been moved. —Kurykh 19:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
If only it was. The venue of the discussion has bene closed by (alleged crony) User:John who says any further discussion will be deemd WP:POINT. There was an incident. A personal attack was laid against me, the third one, and I'd like something done. By closing the discussion in two places, I am deprived of my recourse. Rfwoolf 19:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussion is not closed. It is the manner that you are presenting your argument that you need to change. And you said "I rest my case" quite explicitly on the page, and when nothing is done, well... —Kurykh 19:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Now now, I think it is quite clear the "I rest my case" is jargon to say "I no longer have to prove a certain case", JzG had made a personal attack, I was not saying that I rest *this* case. More over, I made that comment before I reported the incident! Please don't spin things. Rfwoolf 19:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
  • (After Edit Conflict) My right of reply: According to User:Nick, the this damning evidence link he posted above shows all the posts on Wikipedia that have been deleted. While obviously I can't see the link or know the specific contents, I summarily find it irrelevant to the actual case. If it was some attempt to show me as being a troll or vandal, I'm afraid you'll need to reconsider, because I'm not. Rfwoolf 19:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it showed you wasting rather a lot of our time. BTW, you have no rights, other than the right to leave and the right to fork, AFAIK. Moreschi Talk 19:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me get this straight, you wait 6 months after your dispute until Guy's userpage shows he isn't feeling very positive about the project. Then you sucessfully troll him and come running here to complain? Do you feel proud of yourself for doing this? Spartaz Humbug! 19:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Amen - we're not in court here. I archived the discussion because this isn't the complaints dept, because no urgent admin intervention seemed necessary, and because Rwoolf is simultaneously maintaining a thread on this topic on Guy's talk page. The stated purpose of the post here was to attract uninvolved editors and admins. Mission accomplished; now let's centralize the discussion somewhere more appropriate. MastCell Talk 20:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: JzG has removed the section and protected his talk. I request that the discussion be moved back here, because this is far from a resolved issue. ATren 21:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This is what I'm saying Rfwoolf
What do you want us to do, exactly ? Nick 21:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you might clarify the exact rules as to when it's "OK" to call someone a whining twat? Or tell them to fuck off? Or call them a sweaty cunt? Where does it say that certain editors can engage in these kinds of destructive attacks? ATren 21:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
No-one here is interested. Guy shouldn't have done it but no one is going to do anything because he was trolled and clearly isn't himself right now. If you had a shred of human decentcy you would also drop it to give him a chance to step away. All you are doing is trying to extend a dispute that Guy has tried to disengage from. How pathetic. Please stop now, no-one is going to play with you. Spartaz Humbug! 21:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
So if I happened to have a bad day and told you right now "Fuck off, you worthless twat", would I get blocked? I'm betting I would. In fact, I'm betting someone would consider blocking me just for raising this hypothetical. But then I'm not an admin with 10,000 edits so I don't have the right to attack people, right? If there is a double standard, then document it. Civility is one of the five pillars, and I am shocked that this community continues to tolerate long term, vicious incivility from a single user. ATren 22:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Please stop. We are being as tolerant of you as we are of JzG. JzG has since walked away, you do the same. Nick 22:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
ATren, just like everywhere in the world, anybody can say anything they like, as long as they're willing to live with the consequences. You might get blocked if you called somebody names, but only until you calm down and stop the name-calling. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. If somebody freaks out, yells a lot, and slams the door behind them, there's really no need to rub their face in the fact that they've just made a scene of their anger. Most things you do wrong carry their own punishments, built in.

As for long term, vicious incivility... I've seen several people de-sysoped for something like that. Editors who've contributed a lot get cut more slack, but nobody can push and push forever. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Tolerant of me" - Are you kidding? Laughable! Go ahead and point us to the diff where I did anything wrong. Frankly, this whole thing stinks - why is everyone so eager to hide this thread? ATren 22:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to un-archive this thread, since no one's paying any attention to the archival anyway. As to the dispute, this really isn't the venue (see "not the Wikipedia complaints department" and "not dispute resolution"). If you're eager to continue this line of discussion, then I'd suggest a user-conduct request for comment. That way nothing is being hidden and you'll get plenty of outside input. Personally, I'd suggest letting it go, but if you don't feel like doing so, then follow the other steps outlined in dispute resolution. MastCell Talk 22:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
  • In response to the desperate attempt to archive and close this thread, in addition I've been asked "what I want done", in addition to the fact that I said I would post the other times that JzG has used a personal attack - so guys, I'm simply stating this for the record, then I'm moving on, okay? It's all relevant... Here goes...

I sympathise with the fact that JzG has recently been apparently provoked off of Wikipedia - by trolls and vandals and some such.
On the other hand I well know that he is old enough and ugly enough (that's an expression, by the way) to not have to storm off like a baby. Other admins have (above) now said "please be tolerant of him, please be understanding, he got angry" etc etc - he's still an admin, he's still an adult, he has to keep the integrity of all admins.
So I don't think I want JzG blocked or banned, or somesuch, but are we on the same page: held accountable on some level. He seems completely intolerant of this.
Here is my list of at least 4 personal attacks by JzG. Two of them occured today:

  1. "Wolff you are a tossblanket" - Edit Summary
  2. "el ohesra" (arshole backwards) - | this Edit Summary
  3. "Areshole" - [13]
  4. "edit some articles or shut the fuck up you whining twat" - this diff
  5. "Now go away and take your tiny mind with you" - this diff

As some users have pointed out, should this be tolerated by an admin simply because they've done a zillion edits? No, some receourse, some accountability is necessary. Wikipedia must remain civil. Rfwoolf 22:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is accountability. Wikipedia is completely transparent, and we each have to live with everything we've said and done here. JzG can never escape the fact that he's the guy who called you an "arsehole" and a "whining twat". That's on display for everyone to see. That's a repercussion. It's a stain on his reputation; a highly visible case of incivility. We don't do punishment here. There's no need to take any kind of administrative action to stop JzG making further attacks, so what else is there to do?

If you want to open an RfC, then please do so, but this is not a matter for AN/I. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

What, exactly though, do you want us to do. I don't want another stupid list of complaints, I want you to tell us what you want done, because up to now, it's all very childish "he did this and he did that". If you're not going to start making some meaningful suggestions to resolve this issue, I'm going to block every single person who complains for 24 hours in order that they have time to think of ways to resolve this situation. Nick 23:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Response: What can be done? I assume you can give a warning of some kind? A friendly reminder? I'm going to look into RfC. Arbitration seems a bit harsh - and I know JzG hates that and believe it or not I don't want the guy banned or nonesuch. I'll take some time to consider the injustices he has pulled -- and continues to pull - like SALTing an article for 7 months unnecessarily, etc, and then I'll try revert. For now the admins have been informed of the personal attacks, the spiralling debate that JzG has archived, and for now there is stability. Rfwoolf 23:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Why wasn't this followed up? ˜˜˜˜

Request assistance by an uninvolved admin.[edit]

I have, for weeks now, been under attack by an editor who has a grudge, apparently for my deletion of a page at some point in the past. They have repeatedly made accusations on my talk page that there are racist motives behind my deletions. The first two such [14][15] I deleted as trolling. Then they made a third accusation, and began a WP:AN thread with the accusations. Others in that thread stressed that the user needed to back up their accusations with proof. I have since tried to engage the user on my talk page, but it has become obvious that the user does not care to actually read reasoned explanations why they are off-base, but just wants to continue lobbing the accusations of racism at me without making any attempt to back them up. Overall though, I have no clue which deletion of mine could be the cause of all this. Most likely an A7 speedy, from the user's comments, but who knows.

As I am definitely involved in this, it would not be appropriate for me to deal with the continual WP:NPA violations in these unfounded accusations. But if an uninvolved admin could look over the situation and help deal with it, I would appreciate it. - TexasAndroid 06:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP address for three months, considering that it's been involved in this since at least early June. There's no indication he's done any of use for Wikipedia in the past, and there's no indication he's going to stop anytime soon. I think a nice, long block for such absurd accusations and egregious personal attacks can't hurt. — Rebelguys2 talk 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess he found a new address earlier today. I blocked that one for a week, because I can't yet tell if there's going to be much collateral damage there. — Rebelguys2 talk 07:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
He's back again. An account this time. Sigh. I'm now going to just resume deleting him as a troll and no longer dignify him with any more responses. - TexasAndroid 00:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Indef blocked. At this point, I'd completely endorse you going ahead and blocking any sign of him yourself, unless he happened to decide to engage you rationally. (Whatever happened to that kind of mentality, anyway?) — Rebelguys2 talk 08:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone else have any objection to my blocking this guy myself? I've been hesitant to do so because I'm the subject of this guy's ire, thus making me a thouroughly involved person. But being able to block him myself would certainly simplify the situation. A lot easier than having to keep coming here for uninvolved assistance each time he pops back up. - TexasAndroid 13:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking it over, I think at this point it's pretty clear it's a basic troll. You've been more than patient and civil, and he's acknowledged he has no intention of providing details of the alleged offense or of doing anything other than posting racist personal attacks. The AGF phase is over, and he's simply sockpuppeting his way past a block. Block away. Kuru talk 23:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Kuru. Block on sight. --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 23:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Protection, un-protection and re-protection of WP:V[edit]

Hi there. Due to conflicts over a re-wording of this policy, WP:V was protected on the 6th July by Quadell. The edits were discussed on the talk page Here and three proposals put up to assess opinion here. There was clear and strong consensus for draft 1. Today, Jossi unprotected the page. Jossi had not been involved in the dispute and last edited the policy in June. I asked Jossi on their userpage here if it would be OK to add the consensus wording to the policy. I checked one last time here if people were OK with the wording. However, when I attempted to add this consensus wording, SlimVirgin, a party in the dispute, reverted this change and indefinitely protected the page. Tim Vickers 22:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The page has now been unprotected by User:John Reaves, who was not involved in the dispute. What do people recommend I do here? Tim Vickers 22:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest leaving it now - if edit warring continues, it will be quickly re-protected by an uninvolved admin per a WP:RFPP request, there's no point in getting into a wheel war over something so small. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Jossi is heavily involved in the dispute. This unprotection is completely inappropriate. There is no consensus for the changes Tim Vickers are been pushing for, and the page needs to remain stable. That is precisely why Quadell protected it in the first place. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Well.... I still say let's see what happens. If there is a consensus, everything will be fine - if just one or two editors continue to edit war, they'll get blocked. If there really isn't a consensus, then it can be reprotected when we come to that bridge. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've gone back to the version that has overwhelming support on the talk page. If I'm reverted I'll just try some more discussion on the talk page, and hope that the people with concerns will get involved. Tim Vickers 23:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If there is a consensus... There *has* been overwhelming consensus on the talk page if any impartial editor is willing to look at the discussions. The real question is whether SlimVirgin is willing to let go of her disappointing out-of-process and uncompromising approach and respect that consensus. — Zerida 23:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This blatant disregard for due process is both alarming and extremely disappointing [16]. — Zerida 23:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, without commenting on the actual content of the dispute, I think that reverting a blank edit just because it was made to a protected page (especially since at the time it had been only semi'd by mistake) is surely one of those signs that someone needs to get out and take a few deep breaths (Diffs: [17][18]). Confusing Manifestation 00:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

According to SlimVirgin: "There are a small group of editors agitating to add material that would fundamentally alter the policy. They've engaged in all kinds of unpleasant tactics, including personal attacks and starting forest fires in an effort to wear people down." diff No diffs for these supposed "personal attacks" were provided. Tim Vickers 03:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This is some seriously trivial edit-warring right here. Behold, the great and contentious edit:

Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine, and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.

Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.

Some people need to chill. No one, beyond the most Wiki-lawyering hack would be able to derive any substantive editorial meaning from these two versions. --Haemo 03:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I've proposed that second version on the talk page as a possible compromise version (link), but apparently it isn't acceptable. Tim Vickers 04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate stable policies as much as the next person, which is probably why I never edit them. Although I agree with the proposed changes to WP:V in spirit, I don't know what the best wording is, and more fundamentally, I'm not willing to expend a lot of effort fighting City Hall here. That said, the unpleasant tactics being employed to beat down TimVickers are disheartening and lame. MastCell Talk 05:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree. I think sentences like "Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications" are opaque, poorly-written and openly invite this type of abuse [19] of what our policy actually is. Notice that it says "particularly if..." which means they don't even have to be from mainstream publications! Wikipedia does not as a matter of policy "welcome" non-academic sources in any of these areas--that's absurd! And I have witnessed editors promote certain claims based on unreliable sources because of just how badly WP:V and WP:RS have become gradually over the past year. They do because they seem to think the policy supports their positions, and they are just as mistaken. — Zerida 07:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course we welcome reliable non-academic sources; we always have. Please give me one example of editors "promoting certain claims based on unreliable sources because of just how badly WP:V and WP:RS have become ..." I would like to see just one example of the policy being used (correctly) to justify the inclusion of nonsense from bad sources. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 08:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course we welcome reliable non-academic sources; we always have. And I have never said otherwise, but this is about academic topics. Until the most recent changes to WP:V, there was no indication at all that Wikipedia did give preference to academic sources in academic subjects, which it did a year ago. A year ago, we had: "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed", not to mention WP:RS was actually worth its megabytes.
This is a particularly egregious example of an editor who repeatedly introduced ridiculous claims into many articles through various sockpuppets (and apparently still does) based on the assumption that his sources were reliable within the perimeters of our policy. In fact, it was repeatedly pointed out to him by other editors that his sources were not reliable from a Wikipedia standpoint, but to me, at that stage, I did not feel that the policy made a strong enough case against what ended up being a mass assault on a significant number of articles, all sourced. That doesn't necessarily mean it would have stopped him, or that it will stop others like him in the future, but I maintain that the policy has to be clear enough to eliminate any potential misuse. It is not with that wording at all. — Zerida 09:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, but you're not giving me actual examples. I would like to see an example where an editor actually cited WP:V as giving him licence to use what turned out to be poor sources. I would like to see diffs. I'd also like to see a link for "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed ..." What page was it on and when? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 09:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
There is this edit by you to WP:V last October that you described in your edit summary as the "consensus version" link. It states "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed." Tim Vickers 17:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we save everyone a lot of effort and acknowledge that only a few editors may edit certain pages, while even good-faith, constructive, civil and productive editors—who discuss and build consensus on talk pages—may be subjected to the "unpleasant tactics" described by MastCell if they attempt input on those pages ? Acknowledging and formalizing the status quo could save a future good-faith editor from being subjected to a similar debacle; Tim probably could have churned out a couple more exemplary FAs in the time spent on this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hear,hear. The only time I ever tried to edit a policy page - to return it to a stable version changed without discussion to something with a different meaning -in order to make it 'more readable', apparently! - I was reverted a few times without discussion and then told several times I was doing it to win a content dispute, even after I discussed at length how it was irrelevant to any dispute I was then in. Peh. Hornplease 23:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that this "consensus version" was radically-rewritten 14 days later and, amongst other changes, the statement that "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed." was removed by SlimVirgin with the edit summary of - "tightened" on 23 October 2006 diff. There was no prior discussion or consultation on the talk page and her only comment on this major rewrite on the talk page was the statement "I've also tightened the writing a bit more." diff. Tim Vickers 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Rex Germanus' user page[edit]

User:Rex Germanus seems to be attacking the German people. Does this not go against official policy? Kingjeff 14:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Diffs to demonstrate this? Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Check his user page. The link I provided goes right to the thing I'm talking about. Kingjeff 15:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You asserted that this editor is in violation of the "No personal attacks" policy. Please provide evidence that he or she has engaged in personal attacks.
Incidentally, have you notified this editor that you have raised this issue here? Or discussed it with him or her prior to posting to this noticeboard? --ElKevbo 03:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Due to comments made in the case Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Rex_Germanus above, I do not present my evidence against Rex here unless asked to do so by an admin. -- Matthead discuß!     O       03:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Likewise we will not do anything unless you provide evidence, as requested above by ElKevbo. —Kurykh 04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay then - but where should I start with? It seems Rex has earned most of his blocks on Dutch-related articles, and manages to provoke Dutch editors [20], but I'm not into Dutch matters, and can only judge from what I have to witness (sigh!) on German-related articles. Rex openly states his motivation on his user pages and on talk pages, and he undoubtedly opposes anything remotely German within English Wikipedia. His countless unilateral attempts to move articles away from German loanwords like Sprachraum to dubious or clumsy terms like "Glottosphere" [21] have been reverted by the community nearly every time - as was his attempt to establish a Dutch term on English Wikipedia that is "associated with the extreme right."[22]. Rex is gratuitous with labeling others as vandals, which FayssalF found out himself on a related page, see below. It's even worse when Rex sees the chance to accuse others to be nationalists, for which he has developed Rex' nationalism scale, or the straigtforward superlative German nationalist [23][24]. He openly brags about "cleansing this wiki of german nationalists". If nationalist or German nationalist is not enough, he uses Nazi wherever (im)possible. E.g. seeing that the result of the Battle of the Denmark Strait was marked as "German victory", he made the laughable attempt to declare the sinking of the British flagship Hood a "draw" [25] before he changed it to "Draw / Tactical Nazi victory". Regarding attacks on users, he is on parole for a year [26], yet got away with edits like "Getting pissed on DBachman and Matthead" and "User Matthead is, once again, looking for trouble ... because that idiot want to irritate people". Rex also developed a habit of replacing comments of others with {{rpa}}, something which he was repeatedly warned not to do [27]. On the other hand, he removes these tags, and threatens a user [28][29] after he has falsely accused him of sock puppetry [30], like Rex did with me [31] believing I was [32]. Rex even stalked me in an unrelated Arbcom case [33][34] were he called me "biased Polonophobic" for which he received kudos [35] [36] and questions [37] also regarding his rather provocative German King user name [38]. Basically, I advocate a permanent ban of Rex from all articles related to German, Germans, Germany and even Germanic tribes. As the recent case of Cheiron1312 (talk · contribs) shows, Rex' edits on Wiki can make newcomers angry, yet alone established editors who have to witness his same patterns over and over again. -- Matthead discuß!     O       06:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have provided a link to what is in question here. I personally haven't discussed this with him but this topic I brought here has been discussed with him. He either is or he isn't in violation. Kingjeff 03:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any violation unless you point out exactly how it is a violation. Please be specific. —Kurykh 04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"I systematically do not trust German(ophone) wikipedians who spend much time on articles dealing with Nazi Germany, fascism or the German military between 1933 and 1945. I also do not trust people who engage themselves in historical renaming. For example those who support naming Gdansk to Danzig, I'm convinced a large number of these people have a Hidden Agenda." This is a blatant attack on the German wikipedians. This page he has created is more blatant attacks on German Wikipedians. This guideline which states User pages may not have stuff that has "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia, wiki philosophy, collaboration, free content, the Creative Commons, etc." is clearly violated. Kingjeff 04:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You haven't let the user know about this thread. Anyway, i just informed him. Whatever is the case, as i just checked one of the user in question contribs, i found this like bullying and warrant a block by itself. I'll leave some time in order to hear about the real reasons. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright then, here we are once more. First let me make this clear:

  1. User:Kingjeff: I do not know this editor, and before he showed up at my talkpage and reinserted a removed personal attack by User:Cheiron1312.
  2. User:Cheiron1312: New editor, with 5 edits, all related to the Nemi ships. Making gross personal attacks.
  3. User:Matthead: This user is, regretably, a familiar name. Though he claims to be "mainly interested in motorsports" his contributions and talkpage comments tell a whole nother story. This person thrives on conflict, especialy with Polish wikipedians, and me, concerning WW2 topics.

I do not attack "the German people". Besides writing or rewriting numerous articles, I try to revert nationalism, and focus on German nationalism, simply because its the form I encounter most.

What User:Matthead posted here, User:Kingjeff seems unable to prove his statement of me attacking "the German people", are not only old comments, but terribly and I mean terribly out of context, not even mentioning unrelated.

To create some clearity in this mess, the entire timeline of this conflict will now be given:

(Numerous conflicts with User:Matthead, due to his edits)
19:42, 8 July 2007 an anonymous IP posts a comment on my talkpage concerning the destruction
of the Nemi ships. He claims the article is very anti-German, because it says that Germans burned
during WW2. This information is referenced and I remind him of this. I also say he should trim down
on the pro-German attitude ("defending nazis") he displayes for their conduct during WW2.
05:31, 9 July 2007 the anyonymous IP, now as User:Cheiron1312, replies that he does not considers
the source reliable, and then literally says the following:
"But maybe i should trust you. The Dutchs have a lot of experience in commiting warcrimes"
He then continues his rant, claiming the Dutch are responsible for Apartheid ("the boers were of Dutch decend")
he places numbers of Indonesian victims during the Police actions of the Dutch army, and consequently says
the Dutch " tasted only a small dose of her own medicine!" during the German occupation. (Do note, that Dutch
victims of the German occupation were twice as high as the numbers he gave for the Indonesians. Not that it
matters though, as both events were terrible.)
11:31, 9 July 2007 I'm infuriated and warn him this is not the way people discuss or prove points on Wikipedia.
I tell him he may consider himself banned (ie I remove all his future comments) if he does not adapt his ways.
18:05, 9 July 2007 User continues the rant. Somehow he interpretes my comments as an acknowledgement that the sources are unreliable (which they're not) and continues to make accusations to the Dutch and myself. Again defending nazis.
18:22, 9 July 2007 18:22, 9 July 2007 as warned before, I remove the comment and replace it with a notice that I no longer wish to speak to him on my talkpage.
20:27, 9 July 2007 User:Cheiron1312 adds a minor personal attack.
20:28, 9 July 2007 I remove it.
20:40, 9 July 2007 Out of the blue User:Kingjeff appears readds Cheiron1312s personal attack and adds his own below.
20:46, 9 July 2007 I remove them again.
03:33, 10 July 2007 User:Kingjeff and User:Matthead (who is of course more than willing to cooperate in making someone he hates look bad) start to conspire.
This entire report is bogus. I do not attack "the German people" (and no refs have been provided to prove otherwise) I target German nationalism, and as opposed to what Matthead says, I and other wikipedians nearly always succeed, of which this isn't even a real example and Cheiron1213 never implemented his (doubtfull) version.Rex 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The original subject of this complaint is a section of Rex Germanus' user page that says:

I systematically do not trust German(ophone) wikipedians who spend much time on articles dealing with Nazi Germany, fascism or the German military between 1933 and 1945. I also do not trust people who engage themselves in historical renaming.

I would prefer that Rex not assign editors perjorative labels, but at least his prejudices are out in the open for all to see. I have seen arbitration cases involving editors who were far more POV-prone than Rex but who swore up, down and sideways that they were unbiased and it was the other guy who had an agenda. I see two main problems with Rex; first, the labeling of editors as a way of dismissing their opinions, and second, a strong POV that manifests itself as incivility on user talk pages and edit summaries (exacerbated by people being uncivil toward Rex).

The problem is how to deal with this. Rex's arbitration case places him on probation and allows any admin to ban him from any page he disrupts. However, the allegations reported so far have not been about article disruption, and he has not violated his revert parole recently. Incivility was not part of the Arbitration case, and in any event the Arbitration Committee has recently deprecated civility parole as a remedy (and we all know that "cool down" blocks are rarely effective). In a couple of recent cases the ArbCom has authorized the use of blocks for incivility of a maximum of 1 hour duration, probably on the theory that someone who gets dinged several times briefly might start to think twice before hitting the Save button. I could support this remedy, as long as the blocks were thrown in a timely fashion. Otherwise, I think an RFC focusing specifically on incivility and perjorative labeling might be the next route. Admins don't have a lot of tools for dealing with people who are rude and who have strong points of view when those things are not accompanied by edit warring or other overtly blockable behavior. Thatcher131 15:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What I posted on my talk page is not a secret, nor is it unbased. The allegation that I target Germans is nonsense, I target the nationalist ones and keep an eye on them. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope I don't have to qoute Jim Wales's statement on neo nazism on Wikipedia? I'm not saying all Germans who edit WW2 articles are nazis, or nationalists, I'm saying I don't trust them. Rex 15:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "allegations reported so far have not been about article disruption" and "The allegation that I target Germans is nonsense", Rex was in action at Ethnic_German and Germans -- Matthead discuß!     O       16:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think your user page targets users specifically, but I think you should avoid labeling users in your direct dealings with others. For example, you could have addressed Cheiron1312's complaint without labeling him a "revisionist." Even if it is true, sticking labels on people shifts the focus from the facts at hand to their to their personality, which is rarely helpful in a dispute. Thatcher131 15:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand, but that doesn't mean it makes him less of a revisionist or weird editor. I for one can't make out why he objected against nazi amry, but was okay with replacing it with german army.Rex 16:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
As anyone can see from my contribs, I've started editing on Wiki in 2004 mainly in sports-related matters, and got dragged into ongoing disputes only in 2006. Regarding User:Rex Germanus/Original articles, it was him who introduced the List of terms used for Germans into Wikipedia, a list that mainly collects and presents offensive terms. Talk:List of terms used for Germans shows that Rex did not make many friends with his article and his edits. The comparable List of ethnic slurs by ethnicity and Offensive terms per nationality are younger, thus Rex really is a pioneer. Regarding his beginnings, on his 3rd day on Wikipedia, his 8th edit overall [39] claimed that the Franks "originally inhabited the Netherlands and Flanders before they started to fight their way south" which illustrates his Dutch POV on the people that "eventually developed into France and Germany respectively"[40]. Indeed, Rex Germanus started to fight his way through Germany on Wikipedia. When will he be stopped? -- Matthead discuß!     O       16:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Boy you're really trying hard aren't you Matthead? You're forgetting one important thing though aren't you? Sources. That's the main difference between you and me, I use them you neglect them. List of terms used for Germans, was inspired by a very interesting boek, onbekende buren, and was never intended (nor ever was) a bash article. It is currently a perfectly acceptable wikipedia article, something you have yet to produce.Rex 16:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article or section is disputed and the factual accuracy of this article is disputed and both are listed on User:Rex Germanus/Original articles. Rex has contributed to these articles. His personal opinion on a group of people has affected his ability to contribute constructively. Kingjeff 16:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You are seeing ghosts. I am by no means the sole contributor of these articles, and the information I suplied was fully referenced, and my feeling of responsibility ends there. Like I said you're seeing ghosts. I also made an article on Oliebollen a kind of pastry, care to explain how they're anti-German?Rex 16:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You are the main contributor to Dutch influence on German. This article is factual disputed. Kingjeff 16:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

So? It is still referenced. I'm not responsible for possible errors in a book I choose as a reference. Rex 16:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Rex. You haven't addressed my point above (i.e. reverting a legit edit and accusing others of vandalism when it wasn't the case at all). Do you have any reasonable explanation for that? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes of course (though you seem already to have an opinion). If you'll check the history around that specific edit, you'll find a "revert spree". Matthead was inactive for a while then started to revert my edits (without edit summaries) en masse. Including the readding of a template while taggs would have been much better and a false/unsupported merge proposal. Such edits are extremely bath faith and I consider him a vandal for making them. Rex 17:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The opinion i have is that neither you nor Matthead, nor AjaxSmack are well aware of the process of editing.
Please note that only User:Haddiscoe's edit, the bot edition were in place and appropriate which is very sad for an encyclopedia supposed to be edited by humans. Also, please follow the advice of Thatcher131 above to not assign editors pejorative labels. I have therefore blocked all the parties (pls read Outcome below). -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Rex, the whole problem is your point of view pushing onto other users and articles you contribute to like the one I just mentioned. Kingjeff 17:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not push my view on to others. My point of view has a clear disgust of neonazis and German nationalists hurting peoples feelings by revisioning history. That's not negative, thats positive for the factual and moral accuracy of Wikipedia. Rex 17:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


As per the above diffs of disruption and totally inappropriate reverting by User:Rex Germanus -adding to that his ArbCom revert parole i've blocked him for 2 weeks. As for User:Matthead, i am blocking him for 48 hours for tedious reverting w/o attempting to discuss which is not helpful at all. User:Kingjeff has already been blocked by Moreschi for 24h for canvassing. I'm extending that block to 48h because of his reverts at Rex Germanus' talk page. User:AjaxSmack has been informed of the merge case and was asked gently to try to discuss in parallel when tagging {merge}. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Rex Germanus has just stated at his talk page that The reason [of this block] is totally unclear and that blocking him because he used the term vandal at his edit summary was a wrong decision. I explained to him again that he was blocked because of the removal of {unreferenced} tag which was totally out of place. As for the 2 weeks period i explained to him that that period is fair as he is already under parole. I haven't blocked him because he designated someone a vandal as i already excplicitly adviced him to follow Thatcher131 advice re that matter.
User:Matthead has just accepted his block of 48h. - FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry FayssalF, I know it must have been one of the tougher calls, but I don’t think blocking anybody here was the right approach. What did the guys do that couldn’t be resolved by our regular processes? And yes I know, I’m using the standard argument to ease on the blocking, but think about it, wasn’t this the "too" quick a solution? What also worries me a bit, is your pointing out of Matthead’s content with the desired outcome, that's is a bit... let’s say... slightly naïve. --Van helsing 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see your point Van helsing. It wasn't a quick solution at all. If you check this you'd see that i had explicitly declared yesterday that i can't take any action until i hear enough. What i heard today wasn't something new. Everybody was treated fairly as per all the discussion above. Removing an {unreferenced} tag when the article clearly lacks any single reference is called disruption and warrants a block. 2 weeks for Rex was fair as he has been under parole. Matthead was just reverting non-stop w/o discussion which is called disruption as well. 48h is fair in those kind of situations. As per kingjeff, i fairly extended his block from 24 to 48h because he already know that reverting others' talk pages is called disruption as well. Your suggestion (i.e. DR) has become something very unlikely to happen. There was even an attempt to community ban Rex. Matthead has explicitly acknowledged that he is not ready to discuss anything with Rex. So? If all these people are not listening to others and indeed go on on reverting than i see no other relevant or appropriate action except letting them having a break to ease tensions and avoid that in the future as what they have been doing is just disruptive.
Indeed, it was me who closed the community ban case against Rex. This shows that everybody has been being disruptive and maybe these blocks would change their minds when they are back. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 23:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Under Rex's revert parole he is limited to one revert per week, excepting obvious vandalism, and must discuss all reverts on the talk page. He has two reverts on Heel-Nederland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) on the same day (July 5) with no discussion, which is a clear violation (and mislabeling them as vandalism, another violation). My first reaction is that 2 weeks is too long, and that something between 48 hours and 1 week would be appropriate. However, his last two blocks for violating his revert parole were a week each and he doesn't seem to have gotten the message. Also, kudos to FayssalF for taking the time to thoroughly examine the behavior of all parties. Thatcher131 23:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your synthesis Thatcher131. I indeed never double when blocking someone who has been blocked before for no reason. 2 weeks instead of a week or 48h instead of 24h really mean (no less no more) that all these users have to take issues seriously and stop edit warring, stop labeling each other pejoratively (vandals, nazis, xenophobic, etc...), start good faith discussions, bring reliable sources. Rex indeed claims above in a reply to Matthead that he is keen to bring sources in contrast with what Matthead is doing. The truth as everybody noted is that i blocked him because he was removing {unreferenced} tag from a really unreferenced article whose he had created! See? Which one would you believe? It is time for people to be responsible of what they are saying and doing here in Wikipedia and be more civil w/ people w/ whom he is interacting. After 48h Matthead should try to discuss his issues w/ people instead of stating that he has decided not to! Kingjeff should calm down and not violate policies re canvassing, reverting and disruption. As for the unknown User:Cheiron1312, that i suppose he is a sock or at least a meatpuppet of someone i don't know. Do you still have CU tools Thatcher131? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 23:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Not a checkuser. I am suspicious that right after registering he would make Dutch and Afrikaans attacks on Rex, although that information could be found from Rex's Babel boxes. Even so, it would be far better for Rex to have said, "You may disagree with my source but your theory has no sources at all" than "You are a revisionist so shut up" (more or less). Thatcher131 00:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thatcher131, I've made this update [41] after reading a comment by you that made me believe you had noticed that (talk · contribs) made remarks at Nemi ships and Rex's talk before continuing as Cheiron1312 (talk · contribs). I have the impression that the person in question had read the Wikipedia article and decided to protest against the content and those who wrote it. -- Matthead discuß!     O       22:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I must admit it didn’t follow what happened yesterday. What I did see is that two guys conspire to get someone blocked. And it appears, the "victim" actually did violate his revert parole 5 days ago, and thus they succeed in their effort. That’s a bit sour if that "victim" had to respond to a lot of flak from similar users in the past. --Van helsing 00:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
No worries Van helsing. I don't think it was a conspiracy. It was canvassing in fact and that's why Kingjeff was blocked for before i extended his block. If you follow my short discussion between me and him yesterday at my talk page you'd notice that he left almost the same message there. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


I would like to draw attentions of the admins to Babakexorramdin (talk · contribs). He edits an FA article Iranian peoples in a very aggressive style, edit warring, making personal attacks, assuming bad faith and including his original research. Please check the recent history of the article. Here he rvs the article accusing me of vandalism: [42] [43] He keeps on including Azerbaijani people in the list of Iranian people and restoring the claim that “due to their historical ties with various ancient Iranians, their cultural ties with Persians, and their proven genetic ties with Iranian peoples, they are sometimes included as an Iranian people, although the modern Azerbaijani language is a Turkic language, with a large lexicon of [Iranian languages|Iranian]] words”, but fails to provide any source that calls Azerbaijanis an Iranian people and removes the [citation needed] tag that I attached to this claim. Moreover, he adds Uzbeks as Iranian people and removes Iranian-speaking Hazaras from the list of Iranian people. In addition to the extreme POV editing, he assumes bad faith and makes personal attacks on other editors, such as this: You , DUE TO POLITICAL RESAONS OF ANTI_IRANIANISM, are violating and vandalizing our pages. [44] Note that POV editing of this person caused objections of some Iranian users as well. I would like to ask the admins to take measures to stop abuse of editing privileges by this user and help maintain the FA status of the article. Regards, --Grandmaster 05:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I would not call all that personal attacks. I've just reminded him of the guideline WP:CITE and the burden of evidence when it comes to the verifiability policy. If they persist, please let me know. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Calling edits of other editors "vandalism" is a personal attack, in my opinion. In the very least it is a violation of WP:AGF. Thanks for your interference, I'll let you know if this user persists. Regards, --Grandmaster 04:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Stalking by Bharatveer[edit]

User:Bharatveer is wikistalking User:Hornplease undoing the latter's edits. While the former is a revert warrior and pov pusher, the latter supports all his edits with arguments, and references. It is clear that the former is vandalising to push his pov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

Do you have any diffs to provide that demonstrate stalking? --Hemlock Martinis 08:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Removing reference[45], simple unexplained revert[46], again unexplained revert[47], no reverting, still stalking [48], reverting Ragib[49], revert[50],

Repeated rv [51], [52], [53], removal of comment about his editing behavious from talk page [54].— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Side comment this IP looks familiar.--Konstable 11:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
To be more specific - the guy is in the IP range used by banned user User:Kuntan might need a block.--Konstable 12:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Stop trolling, Konstable. A good faith edit is a good faith edit. When did you get the checkuser right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)
This looks fairly certain to be a Kuntan sockpuppet, and I've blocked the IP for 31 hours, which should be enough to convince him to move on to another IP. Actually, from the above, it looks like he already has. Even if weren't a sock, it's clearly an experienced user trolling AN/I and equally worthy of a short softblock. I haven't looked at the supposed dispute between Bharatveer and Hornplease, but I'm sure either of them are capable of bringing it to our attention if there's a problem. MastCell Talk 16:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't,though I am undeniably capable of it. There is no problem at this time, of course. I was notified of a complaint filed on my behalf on my talkpage, so looked in here to reassure all those breathlessly concerned. Hornplease 21:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I should add that the second anon IP that commented here, (talk · contribs · WHOIS), is a TOR proxy server according to TORstatus, so I've indefinitely hard-blocked it. Is that the proper approach here? I know there's been some recent controversy about how to handle TOR servers. MastCell Talk 16:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
You're not the only one who's totally confused about it[55]/ Hornplease 21:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

A Continual History of Harassment from[edit]

This user is engaging in harassing and disruptive behavior on the page List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut and is engaging in baiting behavior towards anyone who reverts his or her edits by flaunting warnings on their user talk page. It seems that unless you are an admin, the user will only ignore warnings and harass others even more. I would love to detail each incident but the trail of contributions this user has made speaks for itself. Here is his or her talk page [56] and here is a view of what the user has done on the List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut page [57]. And it apparently has been going on for months. —SpyMagician 16:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Nearly the entire, long, long talk page for List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut has been an attempt to reason with User:, and an attempt to come to consensus. But we seem to have had a slew (more than a handful) of single-user accounts suddenly pop up to this user's defense. Then he claims he's got a consensus on his side. He's taking up a lot of time of a lot of productive Wikipedia editors. His participation in discussions has more to do with scoffing at other editors' opinions rather than trying to convince anybody of his own position. Nothing seems to help. Noroton 18:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Just an update but the same user is now doing it again [58]. What exactly needs to be done by this user to get admin attention? The user has skirted 3RR rules, but seems to exist on Wikipedia only to disrupt this one page. A quick glance at the history shows a concerted effort by other users and admins to keep this user in line, but to no avail. The page was even locked until a concensous could be made and was unlocked when that concensous was reached in the assumption of good faith that this user would abide by group concensous. And they clearly haven't. --SpyMagician 23:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal Attack[edit]


I have a personal attack from the user Neptuniandroid on my talk page. How do I remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

That's not really a personal attack, but removed if it bothers you... you two should endeavor to leave each other alone.--Isotope23 19:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
"Dumbass" is certainly a personal attack.-Wafulz 19:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
True, and User:Neptuniandroid shouldn't have said it, but this IP did leave a rather rude comment on that user's talk page first. Both of them need to chill out and be civil, in my opinion. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Eh, I'm probably a bad judge of that; I've got a very thick skin. To me it was grossly incivil and wholly unecessary, but not a personal attack. I removed it per the request. If someone wants to warn Neptune about it, go for it, but as FisherQueen said, there was a history of contact that went back beyond this particular comment.--Isotope23 20:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't find the alleged comment, but regardless, IPs are not always the same person, so this could be one person receiving an insult intending for another. Either way Neptunian shouldn't have made that edit.-Wafulz 20:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
You can edit it out yourself by clicking "Edit this page" at the top. However, we're going through some weird technical issues right now, so things might not work correctly.-Wafulz 19:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The Godmother (book)[edit]

Hello, would someone please intervene at this article, if you look at the article edits you can see that I believe both the front and back covers of the book in the article should be allowed others do not. Would you please help to make a decision on this to avoid edit waring. Thank you. PianoKeys 20:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Multiple editors have reverted you. If you want to avoid edit warring, I'd say now is a good time to start a discussion on the Talkpage for the article and explain why you feel 2 fair use images are warranted and not decorative.--Isotope23 20:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:NFCC requires minimal use, and the rationale on the back-cover image is not nearly enough to justify overlooking that. There's an easy way to avoid edit-warring on this one, PianoKeys: listen to the users who have told you, over and over, here, on your talk pages, and on article talk pages, that you continually misuse non-free images in various contexts. We'll stop enforcing policy when you stop violating it. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion Debate clearly no consensus needs to be closed[edit]

Can an admin close Benoit family tragedy as no-consensus. I know it's only been open for two and 1/2 days, but looking at it, one or two users have said that it's a clear no consensus, and just about everyone has different views. Thanks in advance. Davnel03 20:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

  • At the very least rename that article. "Benoit family tragedy" is patent editorializing. Try, perhaps "Benoit family murder" or "Murder of the Benoit family". --Haemo 21:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Except that one member of the Benoit family committed suicide, so your two proposed titles are not only patent editorialising too, but factually inaccurate editorialising. The AfD should run its course, since there is a fairly clear debate between only two options going on, and an admin declaring 'no consensus' at an early stage would just be seen as an attempt to shortcut the process in order to prevent a consensus forming for the 'Merge' side. -- 22:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any reason why the debate shouldn't go on for the normal period. Who knows, a consensus may indeed form eventually - odder things have happened. I don't see why there is any pressing need to decide this any quicker. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed with Morven. No big deal, if there's no consensus when someone does come to close it, it gets closed that way; if people can come to consensus before then, well great! Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Silly request... the concensus is on merge/keep, not delete. This should have been a proposed merge and discussion, not AFD.-- 02:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fudzilla[edit]

Resolved: AfD closed.

Five days has passed on this deletion discussion, and it's still open. I bring this up because the AFD has a ridiculous amount of meatpuppetry in it: we have a large amount of editors (many blue-linked, don't be fooled!) who are from the site (which advertised the AFD) and are !voting keep: claiming that Wikipedia "has no right to decide what anyone reads", "should keep the article undeleted to avoid the appearance of fighting a competitor" - and other brilliant arguments. Any help in closing this dicussion would be appreciated. Thanks. The Evil Spartan 21:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, you could help out by tagging all of the meatpuppets with {{spa}} tags, where they apply. This will help the closing admin sort of who is making a reasonable argument, and who is not. --Haemo 21:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I've closed it (I've got my helmet on and I'm ready for the hate mail). Good pickup on the forged signatures that some of the participants were using... MastCell Talk 22:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess I wasn't expecting it to take this form: Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets#User:MastCell. Sigh. MastCell Talk 04:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


Resolved: Blocked indef by Lucasbfr

User:A31lover uploaded a junkload of improperly licensed images. I warned him to stop licensing images he got off the internet as pd-self, to which he replied with this and this. Someone please block this guy. The Evil Spartan 22:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I deleted most of his stuff today (something like 20 pd-self images), seems he didn't get the message. indef blocked. -- lucasbfr talk 23:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Ed Fitzgerald relocating clean-up templates[edit]

First, let me start off by saying that I do not believe this is in any way malicious and/or vandalism, but I do think it's necessary to bring it to others' attention. User:Ed Fitzgerald has been relocating clean-up templates in articles so that they are placed at the bottom of the page with a "pointer," or short message, at the top of the article.[59][60][61] Several of his changes have since been reverted by various users. I have contacted the user on three separate occasions: 1). when he moved a template to the article's talk page [62], 2). when he moved a couple templates to the bottom of the page [63], and 3). recently when I noticed the new development of the "pointer" and after another user attempted to contact him regarding the relocations.[64] Although the user is mostly civil, I find their dismissal of guideline and clearly stated reason mystifying. I'm concerned that his personal opinion ("the tags, especially multiple tags, disfigure the article, and discourage readers from accessing the material") conflicts greatly with accepted Wikipedia guideline/procedure and that he is not willing to take his (admittedly well thought out and articulated) concerns to the proper channels. He seems to have dismissed my final attempt at advice (as can be seen by his further template relocating here. María (críticame) 22:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion concerning this can be found on my talk page here, and my further thoughts on this and other (related and unrelated) subjects can be found on my user page. Thank you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Tags, especially dispute and cleanup tags, play an important role -- they alert a reader that what he is reading may be disputed, confusingly written, poorly sourced, or what have you. It is important that readers are aware of these issues before they read the content on the tag; that is why most tags go at the top of a given article. You seem to feel that tagging is a way for users to contest the content of an article without editing it -- this is not the case; "drive-by-taggings", that is, without substantive discussion on the talk page, can and should be summarily removed. --Haemo 23:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of issues here, but I think the only one in question at the moment is the position of tags, since I'm not eliminating them but relocating them, and providing a pointer to their placement. Anyone interested can follow the pointer and see the tags, as will everyone who reads the article to the end. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 00:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The position is important; people need to be aware of issues on the page before they read the article, not after. Nebulously stating "This page has been tagged" does not help anyone, and would be totally opaque to a general reader. --Haemo 01:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Precisely. It may appear that tags are addressed to the general reader, but because they represent only the opinion of an editor, and are not in any way definitive, they are better considered as communications between editors, expressing views on how articles can be improved. If the purpose of a tag is to warn the reader, then there should be some sort of process in place to control their use, to make it the subject of consensus, which there is not.
A tag is a flag, saying "Here there is a problem, in my opinion", not a definitive statement, and the audience that cares about possible problems (as opposed to definite ones) is the editors of Wikipedia, and not the readers, two separate but overlapping groups.
By the way, you referred earlier to "drive-by-tagging" as if this was merely an occasional thing. In fact, my experience is that the vast majority of tags are placed without any discussion at all on the talk page, and therefore represent the view of a single editor. They can't even be considered to have been accepted by follow-up editors (as article content can when it passes review and is not changed) because of the taboo against removing them, which is what I'm (in part) currently up against. (In fact, I'm not removing them, only moving them.) Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
As you have moved {{unsourced}} tags on articles which have, in fact, no sources whatsover, I must disagree that the tags constitute "the opinion of a single editor". No sources is simple enough to view and confirm. If there are no sources, this is not opinion. Further, I concur with Haemo - the time to inform readers there is a potential problem or issue with an article is before, not after, they have invested their time and effort in reading it. By burying the tags and adding your non-informative notes in teeny font at the top, you are damaging the credibility of Wikipedia. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 02:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your premise that there is not "some of process in place to control their use, to make it the subject of consensus". The inclusion of maintenance tags, just like any other material added to or taken away from an article, is a matter of consensus among the editors who contribute toward it. As for disfigurement: I'd much prefer a disfigured article than one that incorrectly gives the a reader the incorrect impression that they're looking at well-refined material. There's been mention of "drive-by tagging," but what about the "drive-by readers"? An aesthetically dis-pleasing "Hey, this article is missing reliable sources or is short on citations" can effectively give pause to the folks who are trying to get info. on some nugget they just saw on CSI or are scrambling to write about for English class. I'd much rather "inconvenience" users by making them look at clashing colors and scrolling down a bit more if it also means they know to put a few more grains of salt next to their mouse. --EEMeltonIV 09:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Let us come to face with the facts, please: unsourced articles are more the rule than the exception on Wikipedia -- but that doesn't mean that the articles aren't authoritative, factual, informative and interesting. (There are other ways to ascertain an article's value than whether it has sourcing or not.) But let's not get caught up in ancilliary matters -- to answer your on-topic question, I am not "hiding" tags -- would you say that Categories are being hidden, or External Links, or See Also links?, or links to other Wikipedia projects? All of those things are at the bottom of the page, which is where I'm putting the tags. That's a place where they don't discourage readers from using the encyclopedia as a resource, and yet they're available to the people that are interested in them, and to whom they are addressed, the editors of Wikipedia.
I'll reiterate, if the intent of tags is as a warning to readers, than there are only a few tags that should be at the top, none of which are internally directed, and the use of tags should be regulated or controlled so that when a reader sees a tag that says there's a problem with an article, they know that to be a reasonably definitive statement, and not an offhand opinion. Failing that, tags are better viewed as communication between editors, and not as warnings to the reader. 02:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Citation tags can be construed as warnings to the reader, as the absence of citations can imply the advice to the reader to take the article with a pinch of salt given the lack of a solid foundation for the article. Citation templates can serve both as a alert for the editor and a warning for the reader, as do most other tags. —Kurykh 02:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Exactly right, Kurykh. I find the implication that there is an audience we as editors should be catering to rather absurd; this isn't a play and we aren't stage hands. Everyone who reads Wikipedia is a potential editor, and therefore the templates are relevant to everyone. The reason why they are placed at the top of the page, as is said by the style guidelines, is visibility. María (críticame) 12:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the implication that there is an audience we as editors should be catering to rather absurd; What an absolutely extraordinary statement! I'm totally flabbergasted. What do imagine is the point of Wikipedia, to be a fun place to play around in? It exists to create a reference work to be used, and the people who use it are the "audience". Call them what you will -- user base, clientele, whatever, it is for they and them only that the project exists, and considerations about ease of use and functionality should be second only to considerations of factuality of content.
Obviously, this aspect of Wikipedia has been given short shrift for much too long, if an editor can make a statement like that in all sincerity. Everyone's all tied up in policy disputes, which serve (badly) to regulate editor behavior, to the exclusion of consideration of the needs of the user. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 13:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
You stated that "users of the encyclopedia [are] supposedly our clientele, the people for whom the encyclopedia exists." This is a misstatement: the encyclopedia exists for everyone. If any reader is a potential editor, than templates are useful for them, as well. María (críticame) 13:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, incidentally, very nice attempt to tie in my professional background! Bravo, points for research! But, unfortunately, stage hands don't cater to the audience, they do what other people (director, designers, stage manager) tell them to, so that rather messes up your metaphor. Besides, as a rather famous thespian once said "All the world's a stage." Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 13:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Please be WP:CIVIL, as you have shown you are capable of doing in the past. Not that it means much to delve into the personal, the stage hand comment was a metaphor I pulled not from your life, but my own (speaking as an ex-theatre major). I was not aware of your profession, nor do I think it pertinent to the discussion. Let's remain on topic. María (críticame) 13:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
It's a category error to treat the class of Wikipedia editors as being equivalent to the class of Wikipedia users. It's certainly (and obviously) true that all Wikipedia editors began as users, so that Editors is a subset of Users, but in actuality they have totally different relationships to Wikipedia, and should not be treated as equivalent. (I'll also say that many editors become so involved in internal Wikipedia matters they really cease to be, in any meaningful sense, users of the encyclopedia. Their concerns are no longer the concerns of the casual user, and it's this disfunction that I'm suggesting needs to be addressed.) It's my contention, which I think is obvious from even the most cursory examination of internal pages such as this one, or from a close look at Wikipedia policy, that ease of use and other user-function matters are not given their proper due, and need to be made more important.
Also, let me play the Wikipolicy card and cite WP:BB and WP:IAR as justifying my actions. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 15:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Both of which work until and unless one meets with resistance, which you have - quite strong resistance. Please re-read the pages to which you have linked. IAR and BB have limitations - they are not a blanket permission to do whatever you wish against consensus. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"Strong resistance"? I see here three people arguing against what I'm doing, and two people agreeing with it. I'd hardly categorize that as "strong resistance". Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 16:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ed is right on this. The tags are opinion graffiti of no value to an intelligent reader. They deserve as much respect as a sidewalk passerby stopping to tell construction workers how to build a building. If an editor wants to express his opinion on an article, but is too lazy to make the changes, look up some citations, or just explain politely on the talk page, he isnt worth listening to. I propose we require editors to earn the right to hang their opinions on articles--- you can place one criticism tag for every measly 2000 characters of text you contribute. Wikipedia needs more workers and less sidewalk supervisors. alteripse 02:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't heard the phrase "opinion graffiti" before, but it's spot-on. Thanks. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
You are welcome to it. I was tired of feeling like the Lone Ranger on this. Or maybe you can be the Lone Ranger and I'll be Tonto. alteripse 02:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
In many cases I strongly support the approach taken by Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) – I've seen a very good expert editor infuriated and driven from the project by the row over a "TONE" tag placed at the top of an article as a quick and easy way of someone expressing the opinion that the writing was too interesting, without having to bother with explaining themselves on the talk page. There are occasions where, for example, an "Unreferenced" tag is important at the start, but I've seen that tag added to articles that clearly do have references – again, the tagger couldn't be bothered with checking the article or explaining themselves. Tags within sections or at the foot of the article achieve the aim without disfiguring the article as a whole, tags at the head should only be used in specific circumstances. Oh, and we've probably all come across tag vandalism..... dave souza, talk 15:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this makes three of us. Anyone else out there? We could start our own cabal. alteripse 19:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
dave souza: Tags within sections or at the foot of the article achieve the aim without disfiguring the article as a whole, tags at the head should only be used in specific circumstances. I agree with this, and wouldn't be undertaking my current windmill-tilting if tags were controlled and perhaps redesigned to be less visually disruptive. I'd also like to point out that I have not been in any way relocating or disturbing the vast majority of section tags, since moving them to the end of the section would not be in any way less disruptive than leaving them where they are, and moving them to the end of the article would make no sense. I'd still like to see section tags be redesigned to take up less real estate and be less annoying, and their use in some way regulated, but I don't see much point in disturbing them. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as conversant with Wikipedia's internal processes as others are, so I'd like to ask: what is the purpose of bringing this particular complaint here? A cursory look at the instructions on the page makes it appear to not be the correct venue for this, but, as I said, I'm not knowledgeable in this rather esoteric area. What is the administrative action that the editor who filed the complaint wishes to bring about? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 16:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, the pointer I've been putting at the top of articles after moving tags to the bottom has said this:

This article has been tagged by one or more editors — please see the bottom of the page for more information.

This is perhaps too non-specific and presumes that the reader knows what a "tag" is, so I plan to replace it with this:

Note: For information about the content, tone or sourcing of this article, please see the tags at the bottom of this page.

Would this be more acceptable to those objecting to my actions? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I am admittedly a newbie, but it strikes me that this sort of tag would only be well understood by Wikipedians who have some experience with editing. As a newbie, I find the large references at the point of infraction to be useful, even if only to teach me about what is considered to be good/bad writing. From this point of view, I would advocate a larger notice Jddphd 01:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Point of clarification -- what I'm really trying to say is that Ed's proposal above seems a little too small. Jddphd 02:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Jddphd: a little too small That's a very useful suggestion, thank you. I have no objection to increasing the size of the typeface of the pointer, and trying that, so I'll make that change. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
All tags aren't the same. A simple "cleanup" tag might benefit from shrinking and/or relocation. NPOV tags, totally-disputed, unsourced tags, and so on definitely need to be front and centre; they provide vital information to all readers. My apologies if this is obvious. Hornplease 19:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, I have a complaint: I have not made a massive project out of this, my "initiative" has extended only to articles that I come across in my everyday use of Wikipedia, my thought being that such a small semi-random sampling could be seen and evaluated by the users in context, and perhaps (forlorn hope) catch on. On the other hand, it seems that at least one of the people arguing here against my actions is following me around and reverting my changes (see: [65][66][67][68], for instance and the editor's contribution page[69]), thus subverting my attempt to allow people to see this and judge it, in context, for themselves and without prejudice. His action leaves me with no reasonable action besides reverting his reversion, the first step in an edit war that noone wants, least of all me, or meekly acquiescing in his mass reversions and doing nothing. This doesn't seem fair, especially when the issue is under discussion here.
I haven't been around Wikipedia for all that long, just over two years, but I guarantee that the way things are done here is not the way they were done when it was founded, or five years ago or three years ago, and at least one of the ways that evolutionary changes come about is by people trying things out and other people taking a look and giving the change a fair shake. The actions of this editor in undoing my changes take away that possibility and is not, I submit, at all in the spirit of Wikipedia. I think my suggested change has clear value, I think it deserves a chance from editors without an axe to grind to look at it and either leave it or revert it, so I ask that KillerChihuahua be asked to stop following my contribution trail and undoing my efforts. Thank you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 00:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I have updated all the articles I changed so that they have the new pointer I listed above, and also added the pointer to a few articles where I moved the tags before I had come up with the idea of using a pointer to redirect attention to the tags' new location.
I have also found it interesting that in going through those articles, only a very few were reverted by everyday editors, the vast majority were reverted by three editors: KillerChihuahua,Maria and AxG -- so there has been, so far, no true picture of what the "grassroots" of the Wikipedia community thinks about this idea, because these three editors have not given them a chance to see it. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should start a discussion on WP:MOS on the style manual to get a feel for what the community thinks. --Haemo 02:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Last time I checked, there has never been consensus to put the tags at the top or at the bottom. For example, I've been placing unreferenced tags in the references section for some time now. Just recently, there was a message on Template talk:Cleanup by Rich Farmbrough who stated, "many of us support sending all/most of the cleanup-tags to the end of the page. They could also be mad more subtle once there." I support Rich and Ed in this endeavor as only one small baby step towards a better solution to a serious problem. —Viriditas | Talk 02:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Haemo: Perhaps you should start a discussion on WP:MOS Sure, that's a possible avenue, but my experience of Wikipedia is that it's generally such an open system that there are a number of valid ways to get things done. Despite (or perhaps because of) my propensity for long-windedness, I'm not a big fan of talking an idea to death as a means of getting something done. That's why I chose the route I've taken, which appears to me to be justifiable under Wikipedia's (admittedly crazy-quilt) policies. Also, and this may be a sore point, I'm much more interested in the response of the everyday, ordinary, run-of-the-mill editor to this then I am in the response of the editors who gets caught up in policy debates deep in the bowels of Wikipedia. I think the everyday editors have a relationship with Wikipedia which is closer to that of the user who is a non-editor, and their responses will be mnore indicative of whether the change is useful to the user, as opposed to upholding current Wikipedia practice (which it obviously is not). Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am a "everyday, ordinary, run-of-the-mill editor" and I believe it is a big mistake to hide what is perhaps critical information from the reader. If an article is potentially deficient, especially in terms of content as opposed to style, a reader should be forewarned in as bold a manner as feasible. A fine-print tag is something I associate with tobacco warnings, insurance ads and snake-oil salesmen, rather than an open honest system that wikipedia aims to be. Abecedare 04:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with you if the tags were a reasonable guarantee that the problem they announce is actually true, but, in point of fact, anybody can slap a tag on an article at any time, without having to provide justification or proving their case. (I'd also want the tags to be redesigned to be less obstructive, but that's another matter.) If there was some kind of process or procedure in place to insure that tags were only placed in serious cases, after either extensive discussion or soul-searching on the part of the editor, that would be one thing, but, as I mentioned above, the vast majority of tags that I've found have not been justified or discussed in the article's talk pages, and it's clear that some editors do almost nothing except seek out articles that they disagree with, or which fit some preset conditions, and hitting them with tags. This kind of "drive-by" tagging is what's created the epidemic, and it's diluted the value of the tags to the point where having them up top is not justified. But, in any case, the tags are not "hidden", since the pointer to them is right there at the top of the page.
I will make an analogy I've made before: if we make an analogy between Wikipedia and a print encyclopedia, opening an article with multiple tags at the top is equivalent to opening the reference book and finding that the article you want is covered in post-it notes containing messages from the book's editors: "I think this article needs some work," "The sourcing on this article is deficient", "Let's get a more global view on this" and so on. This does not increase the user's appreciation of the diligence of the editors, it serves to decrease their respect for the reference work.
Now, it's true that Wikipedia is not a print encyclopedia, it's an online encyclopedia (one in the midst of discovering exactly what that means, if people would only let it find out), but the analogy still holds. Tags could be messages to the reader, if they were authoritative (as authoritative as the articles aspire to be) and well-regulated, but in the absence of those attributes, they are merely (at best!) post-it notes between editors, if they are not actually "opinion graffiti". Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 04:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
But, this is patently untrue; again, you appear only to object to "drive-by" tagging — a practice which is contrary to the purpose of tags. Tags, especially ones that go beyond simple clean-up requests, can be summarily reverted if they are not discussed. This has been repeatedly affirmed on numerous pages -- only uncontroversial tags should remain in place. If you feel a tag is not appropriate, then remove it, don't systematically undermine the purpose of tags by removing them out of sight, and thus, out of mind.
Your analogy to a print encyclopedia is perhaps apt. Print encyclopedias are edited, the published -- one would not expect to see "post-its" in a published work. But, Wikipedia is in the process of being edited. That is its very nature -- what you are looking at is a work in progress; and its readers are the editorial staff. The "published" versions of Wikipedia are the CDs the foundation publishes; and you won't see "post-its" in those. --Haemo 17:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
To say Wikipedia is a "work-in-progress" is a little misleading, because we generally use that expression for something that's in the process of moving to some pre-set state of completion, but that's not the case here. Wikipedia will never be "completed" unless it is shut down and abandoned. As long as it exists, it's going to be in the process of being worked on, much like a living entity. And a living entity exists in the here-and-now just as much as it potentially exists in the future, but we don't expect to relate to other people as they might be someday, we interact we them as they are right now.
So as a reference work, we really can't behave as if we're saying to the reader "Please excuse our appearance while we get ourselves in order", the reference work is meant to be used right now, and anything in its makeup which gets in the way of being used right now should be strongly considered for renovation. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
A fair assessment, in my opinion. Editors in good faith feel they are improving Wikipedia by adding tags when they vaguely feel that improvement is needed. If they raised their concern on the talk page this would be useful, even if half the time the most appropriate response would be {{sofixit}}. However, tags provide a message to the world that "this article's rubbish", insulting editors who are doing their best and leading to arguments when the tag is deleted. Where an article is completely unreferenced at tag at the top can be a suitable caution to unwary readers, but when it has at least one reference a more detailed and nuanced criticism is needed: a tag under a "References" heading makes the suggestion, and adds the article to a category for anyone using such categories to find something to do.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave souza (talkcontribs) 09:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you, dave souza, but your example can be best fixed by common sense; the {{references}} tag states that the article has no references, so I would hope that any Joe or Jane editor would see that if the article contains even one references, it is not, in fact, entirely unreferenced. I am obviously one for putting necessary tags for overlong plots, trivia, and similar other section-specific templates in the section it belongs; that's also common sense, I should hope. I would also hope that templates that deal with POV or OR are placed in a corresponding section, unless it's an extreme case and it is obvious that the entire article needs help. My concern is mostly with visibility, and the mistaken belief that articles need to be cleaned-up for the sake of aesthetics. Tags are useful, they serve a purpose, both categorically and accessibly -- why hide them at the bottom of the page? The "pointer" is also fairly inconspicuous and easily overlooked by Wikipedia's "readers." María (críticame) 12:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Woops, sorry for failing to sign. It's really a question of balance, and a lack of common sense from some taggers. Dr. Gene Scott desperately needs cleaned up, but the two tags are a bit iffy – "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality." relates to a recent comment "There is not one mention of the man's controversial nature, and bizarre presentation" - there's a source for that in the talk, why didn't the tagger just add a mention? "This article has been tagged since July 2006" as not citing refs or sources, technically true, but the nine external links listed look very much like sources from the days when references which were external links were commonly put under "External links". So, the tagger couldn't be bothered checking to see if these were sources for the article as written, and for a year no one else has bothered either. Tags can tend to be a way of not doing anything. .. dave souza, talk 19:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Maria: The "pointer" is also fairly inconspicuous and easily overlooked by Wikipedia's "readers." A number of people have made that objection, here and elsewhere where this is being discussed, and I think it's a valid one. I made the pointer small because I found that the tags at the top get in the way of using the article, but perhaps I made it too small, perhaps there is an aesthetically acceptable middle ground where the pointer is large enough to attract the kind of attention that folks want, but not so large as to disfigure the page and get in the way? Also, perhaps my second revision of the pointers wording could be beefed up in some way. Does anyone have suggestions, I'd be very interested in hearing them. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I came here after finding the tags on Dr. Gene Scott at the bottom of the page. (Please don't ask me why I was looking up Dr. Gene Scott :) ) In any case, I disagree that editors and readers should be seen differently. Since all readers are potential editors, a tag at the top of the page encourages participation. I don't see good articles being tagged. Tagged articles that I see are usually tagged for a reason. Especially as a generation grows up with wikipedia, it is important for wikipedia to be honest about its limitations, to be seen as a first source of collective knowledge, and not the authortative source on anything. Tags at the top remind everyone of the limitations of what wikipedia is, and encourages deeper study of the subject, which also encourages better editing of articles. 16:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the above statement, sorry for screwing up the wikicode XinJeisan 16:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
That is not my experience at all, I'm sorry to say. I haven't done any kind of formal survey, but I use Wikipedia extensively on a daily basis, not primarily for editing, but to look things up, and what I've found is that close to 50% of the articles I reference have tags on them -- and I'm not looking only in a limited range of subjects, I'm generally all over the map. If 50% of Wikipedia's articles are really so deficient that they deserve pointing out their deficiencies to the reader, then Wikipedia is a lot less useful than I've actually found it to be, and it hardly deserves to be used as a reference work. I don't think that's the case, since most of the articles I read are functional and informative. (In fact, the biggest problem I've found is that some of the articles are very poorly written.)
Perhaps some kind of blue-ribbon panel of well-respected Wikipedia editors should take a look at the tagging situation to see if, as I contend, it's out of control and needs re-vamping. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I have done a formal survey -- in fact, I've done five of them. In general, less than 5% of all articles are tagged, and even in the most-tagged group, biographies of living persons, only 15% are tagged. Either you're viewing a very atypical selection of articles, or you're experiencing confirmation bias. --Carnildo 04:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Really!? That very much surprises me, because I spread out across a fairly wide range of subjects, and it's not my experience. I'd love to see whatever information on your survey that you have -- methodology, sample, results. Thanks. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 15:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The surveys are at User:Carnildo/The 100, User:Carnildo/The 100 Biography, and User:Carnildo/The Living 100 Biography (partial survey, only 65 pages rather than the intended 100). Sampling methodology was to click Special:Random until I found enough articles that met the criteria for the survey, recording interesting information about each article. "The 100" was re-checked three months, six months, and nine months later, to see how the articles changed over time. --Carnildo 02:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Ed, alteripse, and dave. References go at the bottom; that's why they're called footnotes. For exactly the same reason, tags, which are a sort of anti-reference, also belong on the bottom. All that needs to be at the top (if that) is something to indicate that the tags exist, and then anyone who's interested in seeing them can look at the bottom, just as people do now if they're interested in seeing the references and other footnotes. Zsero 02:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I see no analogy between tags and footnotes. As I said, some tags need to be front and centre, to alert all readers that an article's content is disputed. Hornplease 08:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I think a similar activity (and one which is almost universally recognized as positive) that you may want to consider is moving tags to the appropriate section for articles where the tag only applies to a small part of the overall article (especially true for POV problems).
That said, I think whether to tag on the top or the bottom depends very much on the nature and severity of the problem. If an article is sourced but is just not particularly well-written or formatted according to WP standards, okay, tag it at the bottom. That's more of an administrative issue than a warning.
On the other hand, for articles that have significant POV problems or have literally no sources, I strongly feel the tag needs to go at the top. By the time a reader gets to the bottom, they may already have changed their opinion, possibly based on wrong information. This is a very bad thing.
To sum up: If there are no major concerns about the accuracy and neutrality of the article, okay, I think Ed Fitzgerald has a point. The tags on top is a bit ugly. But articles that are inaccurate or biased should be made ugly with a tag, so that all readers are 100% clear that what they are reading may not necessarily be on the up and up. --Jaysweet 17:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly support that as a reasonable compromise. Hornplease 00:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I hope so -- any ideas about what direction that compromise should go in? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Jaysweet: But articles that are inaccurate or biased should be made ugly with a tag If the tags were authoritative, that would be a different situation, I agree, but what mechanism could be put in place to assure that? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly support continuation of status quo. There appears to be a contradiction - Ed wanted to prevent articles from being defaced he is still leaving a tag up front. So he went in for small text. But he is not adverse to increasing their size, as per his comments above. This then contradicts the whole purpose. Any tag is ugly! If we dislike the tags, time is better spent addressing the problem and removing the tag - by cleanup, referencing, etc. By shoving the tag you only hide the issue - that there is a problem with the article. AshLin 16:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I think there's a clear aesthetic difference between a single line of bolded text, even if it's bigger than the small type I used, and those huge and unsightly tag boxes which seem to grow bigger and uglier, with more and more text in them, every day - especially (as is the case with some frequency) when there is more than one tag on the article. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This issue is being discussed at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 7, where the "pointer" and templates at the bottom is meeting very strong resistance. I also strongly support keeping the status quo, in which tags will remain either at the top of the article or the relevant sections so that they will be readily visible, therefore fulfilling their purpose. María (críticame) 13:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Mariam83 blocked indefinitely[edit]

This user has created havoc in all main North Africa-related topics' talk pages since she started editing a few weeks ago. Mariam83 tried very hard to prove that she is right and the rest weather they are real self-hating negro Sudani black man(s), lunatic(s) or anything related to offend black people in particular. While she could have been a benefit for wikipedia -like when she is not slurring she brings some notable sources although blurred by the noise, this user has been more a disrupter than someone keen to work w/ others w/o intentionally trying to offend them. I may feel sad for wikipedia for losing a potential positive contributor (editing since June 2007) but my zero tolerance to racist and very offending slurs makes me feel no sorrow for any potential thought whatsoever especially that she was given more than few or little chances to stop that behaviour and contribute safely and gently. Her talk page history is full of comments of a dozen of editors and a few admins' notes/ re her behaviour as well as two block notices. That same talk page that nobody cared for so long to revert as it was made sure to be kept empty at all times. It was like ohh you bastards and filthy and uncivilized negroes, do not talk to me! And between this and that (chrono order):

Since this user has been more active in violating NPA many times i blocked her for that said reason. This means that she could have been blocked for disruption, BATTLE, edit warring, ABF as well. All in all, Mariam83 has been having conflicts w/ around 5 admins and around 6 or 7 editors. That's quite a real battle. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I endorse this block. Mariam83's behavior has been absolutely inappropriate. FayssalF did the right thing in blocking her to prevent further incivility and harassment. Picaroon (Talk) 02:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Quite right, block with/due to extreme prejudice. Tim Vickers 03:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Probably a troll. (I hope it was a troll, would be even scarier to imagine someone really thinks that stuff...). In either case, goodbye, don't come back, very strongly endorse block, etc. etc.. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks mate, the behaviour was impossible to deal with - pity as I noted at Bouha talk page, as it was clear "Mariam" had some real knowledge, but either trolling or really bloody loony (the usages of Abid etc struck me however as real profound racism). collounsbury 15:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC).
She was back emailing me as usual w/ her rant and slurs (i.e. accusing me of having some weird sexual relationship w/ you in particular). Added her few email addresses to spam. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly endorse this indefinite block. This alone should be anyone's last edit.Proabivouac 07:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, and in fact I'm disgusted this person was allowed to stay here for an additional three weeks. --Golbez 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
User:Mariam83 has gone too far with personal attacks. I too support indefinite block -