Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive298

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Removal of translation links[edit]


This morning I have noticed that Alro has removed the Hebrew tranlsation link from dozens (if not hundreds) of wikipedia articles (here is one example [1]) without giving any kind of reason for this in the edit summary. I thought that this situation should be brought to the attention of an admin to double check. If it is legit than that is okay, but, if not I know that it will be much easier for you to make the corrections than it will be for me. Thanks in advance for your attention in this matter. MarnetteD | Talk 13:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't checked them all, and my Hebrew is non-existent, but the ones I did go back and look at seemed to lead to pages which didn't exist, so I guess the editor is removing dead links to Hebrew Wikipedia. Edit summary could be better but I don't believe it to be vandalism. The Rambling Man 13:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
No, no, the guy is a known Wikipedian in the Hebrew project. He's removing links that go nowhere, usually because the article was deleted for various reasons. Don't worry. okedem 13:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
My thanks to you both for checking on this. It is good to know that this editor is cleaning things up for the project. As a wikignome myself this kind of thing is always appreciated. MarnetteD | Talk 16:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Pinging admins[edit]

If there's an IRC-enabled admin around who is familiar with rangeblocks, could you hop on #wikipedia-en-admins for a minute? I could use a bit of technical advice. Thanks. Raymond Arritt 14:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No IRC access here, but you will find some technical guidance at mw:Help:Range blocks 15:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm getting some help on IRC too. Raymond Arritt 15:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Desinotes[edit]


User has an account primarily to promote and advertise his 'blog'. Has only made one edit, [2] - and that was to paste entry's from his web site onto his talk page. ScarianTalk 18:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Deleted his talk page and blocked the user. Cowman109Talk 18:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! ScarianTalk 18:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Intentional misinformation after warnings.[edit]

User:Arawiki has consistently been adding misinformation to the Abd-al-Aziz ibn Abd-Allah ibn Baaz after being warned. He is making an insertion into the article cited by an Arabic-language source which does not confirm what his edit says, and has repeatedly been warned.
The insertions may be seen here:

I warned him directly on his talk page at 10:51, 31 August 2007; however, since he responded in a very negative manner at 12:05, 31 August 2007. In addition to that, I also explained to him that the source did not confirm what his edit claims here:

Also, this user has already had to be warned about a three revert rule violation at 11:44, 5 September 2007.
Normally I would attempt to warn him specifically on his talk page again about posting such misinformation myself, but considering the way he responded on my talk page last time I am worried that it may inflame the situation. He is also engaging in somewhat disruptive behavior on the articles for Qutbism, Salafism, and Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal. He has stopped responding to my comments on the talk pages of all the above named articles. While this would normally fall under content disputes, it has moved over into what seems like intentional misinformation which I think may constitute sneaky vandalism; however, I am not quite sure to i'm bringing it here first. MezzoMezzo 18:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this acceptable?[edit]

NOTE: This is a copy of an archived incident, resolved here. I've added one question and a proposed exception to the decision.--Kitrus 20:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Is keeping a record of (spurious) sockpuppetry accusations, such as held here User talk:Kitrus accepted? Interesting juxtaposition of warnings and records Thoughts? -- Avi 06:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I always enjoy accusations of sockpuppetry against the likes of Jayjg, they make it so much easier to work out that the accuser is deluded :-) No, this is not an acceptable use of user space. Guy (Help!) 08:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I thought so. Thank you, and it's good to see you back, Guy! --- Avi 12:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Funny, before other things came up for Jayjg, he was editing so heavily any sockpuppeting would have prohibited a job, eating, and sleeping. --MichaelLinnear 23:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Which administrators were involved in this decision?--Kitrus 20:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I will restore the section that lists KNOWN, verified sockpuppets and leave "suspected" deleted.--Kitrus 20:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do you need this list? Shell babelfish 21:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do you care? Why do you have any number of things on your own userpage?--Kitrus 01:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I care because I can't think of a reason you would need the list, however, if you have a legitimate reason, that would be something to consider. If you don't have a reason beyond singling out these editors then its blatantly inappropriate. Oddly enough, my userspace is used to facilitate working with the community to build an encyclopedia - but you looked at it before asking that question, right? Shell babelfish 17:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Using your userspace to attack other editors or deride other editors is an inappropriate use of your userpage. Plain and simple. Guy is an administrator, by the way.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Ryulong- The list consists of former editors who have been banned for sockpuppetry.--Kitrus 05:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And why do you need this list? It seems to violate WP:DENYRyūlóng (竜龍) 06:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
From the first sentence of WP:DENY:

This is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline and editors are not bound by its advice. Please update the page as needed, or discuss it on the talk page.

If their's no Wikipedia rule against it, I'd like to put my list back up. Thank you.--Kitrus 06:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Skatewalk and User:Funkynusayri: disruption and canvassing[edit]

Could I ask someone to review User:Skatewalk and User:Funkynusayri's conduct? Skatewalk has been cross-posting on various users' talk pages for days to encourage them to engage in revert wars on several articles, lastly asking them to deal with a user "known for his/her Anti-Arab agenda" [3]. He is also fond of soapboxing on article talk pages, for which I left him two not-a-forum warnings, which he deletes then posts on my talk page instead. Funkynusayri is the user who frequently responds to his calls [4]. Please review our contribution histories. — Zerida 20:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I posted on members of the Arab world wiki project, because you are trolling Arabic language pages and claiming dialects as languages!

  • the only language to split from Arabic is Maltese, every other nation speaks Arabic as its official language and has numerous local dialects. I ask the admin to review Zerida biased edits history to see what type of agenda she is pushing!
  • wikipedia is a scientific encyclopaedia not a place to play edit wars! 90% of your contribuitions are original research that opposes reality and science!--Skatewalk 21:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Again, when I see sections of articles that are clearly false, or push a nationalistic agenda, I change them to the better. The "Egyptians" article is a huge problem, and is based on a false premise. Funkynusayri 21:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

User Zerida contribuitions to Wikipedia!/sock-puppet Hamada-2[edit]

It will take me pages to detail the atrocities this member commited.

  • Creating Sock puppets such as Hamada2. participating in negative revert wars. that reduces the quality of wikipedia and its articles.[5], [6], [7]
  • A habit of blanking talk pages![8], [9]
  • we are dealing with a rude user, who wants wikipedia to reflect his personal feelings!--Skatewalk 21:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The only claim to which I can respond here is the blanking of the article's talk page, which editors are allowed to do if they are being used as a forum or disruptively. I only blanked that part that was in violation of policy. The rest is a rather long string of personal accusations and attacks that leaves me, more than anything, pretty surprised since I've had almost no interaction with Skatewalk until he began "editing" articles to which I frequently contribute. At any rate, content disputes, if there are any, are not an excuse for disruption. — Zerida 21:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but explain the sudden apeerance of Hamada2? He only appears to be interested in your edit wars? Look at my history I expanded over 1000 articles, and I use respected refernces in every edit I add. Unlike your biased reverts or ommissions of refernces![10]

  • Please explain to wikipedia, why did you delete this reference? [11], its already known and official that Arabic is the language of egypt. The Egyptian govt websites operate in Arabic, the Egyptian dialect exists on TV just like the Southern American dialect or Italian American dialect exists on TV and the streets. However its not a language!. I referenced it because you seem to live in a fantasy world (which is beautiful), just dont spam wikipedia. They have Dramatica for creative users such as yourself.--Skatewalk 21:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line[edit]

Both parties should try WP:AGF and stop their "agendas and sockpuppetry" if they got any. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if asking both parties to assume good faith and to stop their "agendas and and sockpuppetry" (quoting Skatewalk) is exactly assuming good faith. At any rate, I've looked a little deeper into the past, and seeing these page histories [12], [13] throws in a bit more perspective for me. It would be nice though if the sockpuppet accusations [14] and especially the anti-Arab charge [15] [16] [17] [18] weren't bandied about every time one wants to get one's way, particularly when one is standing on pretty thin ice [19]. Another thing that would be nice is perspective by much less involved editors. — Zerida 06:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I talked to Skatewalk both on article talk pages, his user talkpage and even via email to stop creating havoc and avoid confrontation. Next time, he will be blocked. I am of course concerned about the obvious sockpuppetry from both sides. You, him? i don't know and my idea is to run a checkuser on all involved parties in those sets of articles includng myself. How is that? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 10:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
You can't have a CheckUser run on yourself because 1. you were not editing this particular article, and 2. CheckUser is not for fishing nor to prove one's "innocence". Whether this account [20] is a sockpuppet may not require a lot of investigating, and so would likely not qualify for CheckUser either. That would leave me with your "obvious sockpuppetry" charge! Not that your immediate assumption of bad faith necessarily surprises me given the tone with which some editors who don't share your POV in this subject area are sometimes met [21], but there was no need for all that careful wording to point that out. — Zerida 07:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I love Unicorns, but you don't see me going in edit wars attempting to add them to the Equidae family or atleast the Perissodactyla order. I expect the same from you, you should seperate your rich imagination/fantasy from facts(that you might not like). You can start your own website if you want to create your own world.
  • Zerida the reason you have so much edit wars is because you are promoting an agenda of hate towards 340 million humans, for unclear reasons?!. You should take your hate somewhere else. What did you contribute to wikipedia? just look at your thousands of edits in your history and all you see is a long record of edit wars and sock puppetry.
  • Irresponsible editing only brings a bad name to Wikipedia.--Skatewalk 23:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Irresponsible editing only brings a bad name to Wikipedia. Indeed! I'm glad we agree at least on one thing. — Zerida 06:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Domesticated hedgehog immenent edit war[edit]

An edit war is beginning in the article domesticated hedgehog. I believe that this is being fought by two people - both using multiple accounts. One person wants to add four or five links to the external links section. The other person doesn't want them there. I agree that they shouldn't be there, but I don't agree with the constant reverting back and forth. I've left multiple messages on the user's talk pages from very nice at first to very stern telling them to take it to Talk:Domesticated hedgehog. Hopefully I've preempted this edit war because I got one of the users to use the talk page. I just wanted to make note of it here in case it continues. -- kainaw 13:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The article has been semi-protected by User:JzG, which should calm things down a bit. At least temporarily - you know how worked up people get about domesticated hedgehogs. MastCell Talk 15:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Dimsdale! -- But|seriously|folks  17:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
We need a new admin button to nail editors' heads to the floor. Raymond Arritt 18:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Support the new admin button. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The Dinsdale brother (I forget which one) was terrified of "Spiky Norman"...LessHeard vanU 21:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Pneumatic or electric nail guns? ThuranX 21:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Why not both? Kwsn(Ni!) 21:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

IP Address:[edit]

I think that should be blocked after getting a ton of last warning messages. --MacMad (talk · contribs)  06:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Usually a recent final warning and vandalism after that final warning are required before someone will be blocked. WODUP 06:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, not really with those two templates on the top of his talk page, in addition to a block log like this. Further warnings are a courtesy at this point. But anyway, blocks for vandalism should be reported to WP:AIV, where they are generally handled faster. He hasn't edited for 15 hours though, so a block right now would possibly be unnecessary. Someguy1221 07:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You can't assume that's the same person every time though, so all those last warnings are functionally meaningless. Even static IP addresses are sometimes reassigned. Natalie 13:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It's a shared a school. Thus we can treat it differently. Someguy1221 19:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Some schools really send nothing but vandalism our way, for long periods -- at that point, it seems worth preventing a further expenditure of resources to clean up after them. But this school has helpful edits (even looks to have cleaned up some vandalism) in the past few days. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Edmund Kayyuen Lo article and related AfD[edit]

The Edmund Kayyuen Lo article has previously attracted some BLP violation editing and is currently up for deletion. Now the AfD and the article are both attracting disruptive editing and my attempts to revert these edits appear to be leading to escalation and spill over into other articles. I believe some sockpuppetry may be going on and think snowing the AfD and closing down the disruptive editors before this gets out of hand may be the best route. Though if there's another effective way to handle this sort of thing, or if I could have prevented it getting to this stage I'd love to learn about it. Thanks -- SiobhanHansa 10:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

AFD closed. ^demon[omg plz] 14:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has been recreated by the subject. Does g4 apply to snowed AfDs? --OnoremDil 14:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
G4 applies to all xfd deletions - rain, shine, and SNOW. Carlossuarez46 21:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)



Single use, disruption only account has started a moving war. [22] --VartanM 17:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef, obvious troublemaking sockpuppet. Someone else needs to clear up the moves, though, I'm walking out the door to the opera. Moreschi Talk 17:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. --VartanM 17:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Looks like all the moves are reverted, redirects deleted. If they come back around, WP:AIV is also pretty good for a fast response. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Endless vandalism at Advanced Micro Devices[edit]

It looks like this article needs at least a semi-block to stop the the vandalizing IP User: --Denniss 20:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

IP blocked for 48 hours. Mr.Z-man 20:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Repeated nusiance edits[edit]

Would it be possible to block User talk: who has persistantly be making silly edits to village in Surrey. Thanks SuzanneKn 20:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, he hasn't been given a final warning, and appears to have stopped, so I don't think it would really accomplish anything. Also, in future, please report vandalism to WP:AIV. --Haemo 21:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack allegation[edit]

Folken de Fanel reported by Cman7792 for personally attacking

Folken De Fanel continues to perosnally attack me. if u dont believe me now, chec the dragonball z adf page. once again, he has a record for doing these sorts of things. this must not continue. --Cman7792 22:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any diffs of what is supposed to be a personal attack?--Chaser - T 22:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Having watched this trainwreck of an AfD as a bemused outsider, I think this is the diff in question, as it's the only thing on the AfD I can see that could possibly be taken as a personal attack from Folken de Fanel. The only thing on that AfD that I'd view as a genuine personal attack is this from Cman7792iridescent (talk to me!) 23:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I saw what iridescent saw, though Iridescent said it better and faster. Thanks, for providing diffs, I should've done that too, LOL. ThuranX 23:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd suggest giving them both a time out. I was here when that happened; the article ended up becoming a huge edit-warry mess. HalfShadow 23:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic slurs, personal attacks, and incivility by User:Mandsford in afd discussions[edit]

I was reading through yesterday's afd discussions and noticed this user often makes abusive or insulting comments. He calls a nominator an "asshole" here. He calls the same editor an "asshole" again in another afd here, and uses that insult yet again here, then calls the nominator "Jerko" here. He implies that editors using a common argument in some afds are "morons" here.

He makes anti-Semitic remarks by referring to refugees who fled from Hitler as "running away from your problems" here. He makes another ethnic slur here by saying List of Polish Americans should be renamed List of Polacks (which is also a disruptive suggestion, although User:Mandsford may be so ignorant that he believes it is reasonable). He uses another afd comment to make a joke about POWs here.

This isn't the first time I have noticed User:Mandsford, I look at the afd list occasionally, and the examles I have cited are not isolated cases. I'm sure people who follow afd more than I do will be even more aware of this user's behavior.

The main afd page says "AfDs are public, and are sometimes quoted in the popular press. Please keep to public-facing levels of civility, just as you should for any edit you make to Wikipedia. Avoid personal attacks against people who disagree with you; avoid the use of sarcastic language", but User:Mandsford totally disregards this in most of his comments.

I won't be returning to this post, since I have no interest in reading any potential personal attacks made by this user, and I'm on a dynamic IP, so any messages that are left on this IP address will not be read. (I have never been involved in any afd discussions with this user, but their conduct needs to be closely watched by those with more authority than an unregistered user like me). 04:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I left a warning on his talk page. I have seen him at Afd a lot. He is usually very civil - although we disagree most of the time. I will chalk it up to having a bad day, for which a warning should suffice. We all have bad days. While calling another editor an "asshole" is not to be condoned, it is a severe view that the comment about people fleeing Hitler and/or Stalin (as both were mentioned in tandem) was a singling out of Jews to make the comment anti-semitic, but I'm not Jewish and Jewish people may view it differently but we should WP:AGF on motives. Also the comment about Polacks and Japanese internees (who were civilians not POWs), I would assume wer poor attempts at sarcasm or humor unless the editor indicates otherwise. Needless to say, they fell flat - like a certain well-known celebrity's blackface incident that really had no racist intent. Carlossuarez46 06:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I have also noticed Mandsford's poor AFD conduct.

During Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Iranian sentiment (3rd nomination), he started with poisoning the well and assuming bad faith, then moved to taunting me for defending my nomination. He continued trolling along this line, taunting me for making another response. At this point, User:The Evil Spartan actually had to remove Mandsford's comment as trolling.

I can understand that someone may slip up and lose their cool every once in awhile, but taunting is unacceptable, and if this is a regular problem with Mandsford (as this section suggests), we may have to take action to prevent further disruption. Perhaps this matter should be investigated further? The Behnam 21:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

As of now, he's still not exactly what you would describe as 'cool'. I'd advocate a warning that he's still pushing it somewhat, any more and he'll get blocked, and then procede to blocking if he continues. I don't think it's quite blockable yet, although I apreciate he's unlikely to stop. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 18:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Archival of young thread apparently for POV reasons[edit]

Over at Talk:Battle of Jenin, user Jaakobou has been archiving old talk page threads. Perfectly normal, necessary, and helpful. Except that recently he has taken to archiving young talk page threads which he feels are "nothing more than an intrusion to the talk page"; see [23]. The last comment there came at 00:47, 8 September 2007; he archived it at 16:00, 12 September 2007 four-and-a-half days later. He did not archive a thread which saw its last comment (by Jaakobou) on 22 August 2007, or even a thread which was just one post, by him, from 6 June 2007.

I perceive this action as part of a longer pattern of talk page disruption. At one point Jaakobou added "closed discussion" headers to a 4-hour-old thread based on his belief that "this issue has been fairly well explained" which was not the general consensus. He has also been moving comments fairly aggressively to conform to his preferred scheme of organization ([24], [25], [26] among many others). I issued warnings [27], [28] which he rejected, so I feel I have to escalate this. Eleland 22:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

i believe i replied to all the concerns,[29] * , [30] and also that my statement regarding the archiving is misrepresented. i note to whoever might notice this thread that my comment on the archiving was: "stopping the fude here"[31] and not "this issue has been fairly well explained"
* please disregard inaccurate/false accusation by User:PalestineRemembered who has yet to find a mentor since his CSN case.[32] JaakobouChalk Talk 22:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There is certainly a mountain of information here. From a brief foray into the first diff it becomes clear that...
  • editors were complaining about User:Jaakobou refactoring the Talk page according to his own view of how it should be organised, hinting at possible WP:OWN problems;
  • editors raised issues about article tone, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE etc. which were archived, rather than answered, by User:Jaakobou.
I hope Jaakobou's actions aren't part of a pattern. Anyway, it's late and I'm not going to be able to cover all of this fairly. I hope someone with a little more fortitude can stick it out. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 04:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
(1) i've explained my pallywood archiving here and here.
(2) to be frank, the refactoring of that old, long and complex misunderstanding from the Abu_ali-rolandR case makes my GF drop some, but i'll still assume it. in fact, i've recently made a note to the blocking admin noting him that i believe the comment he's left was exaggerated and requesting if he'd agree to fixing of the issue.
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 10:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
extra comment: i wish to contest the "archived rather than answered" statement. i've been giving phone calls across the world to validate contested sources[33] , [34] so that we can get rid of prolonged polemics that go nowhere. and opened up subsections regardless of my position on the complaints,[35] or the people raising those issues. to be frank, this article has seen immense amounts of misconduct and incivility (borderline on harassment even).
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 10:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I can see that you believe that you have explained your actions adequately, and that you believe those actions were good for the discussion, non-disruptive, etc. What I can't see is support from other editors, much less consensus. I'm sure you can appreciate that, to uninvolved outsiders, an editor who stands alone for neutrality, verification and reliable sources may be difficult to distinguish from someone acting unilaterally to promote their own POV and their own way of doing things. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 13:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
not too long ago i've placed a notice on the village pump requesting someone to be some type of clerk on the article so that i, an involved editor, won't be forced into that role. however, with the lack of response, i had no alternative (with my desire to resolve issues and promote the article) but to take to the role. i completely understand eleland's issues with this archiving, being that he also is an involved editor and with his lack of an effort at assuming good faith.[36] however, i don't quite believe that his insistence/allegation that i'm "apparently" promoting POV is remotely close to an established fact. to be frank, i find some of his commentary a symptom, which other editors have taken to, to the reason editors have been less responsive to attempts at promoting the article.[37] i've no issues with readmitting archived sections, but the reasoning that "there's older threads" and "i don't like what you are doing" don't hold much water if the subsection is but a distraction to the talk page and people have moved on to bickering on newer subsections.
i'd be happy to have a serious outsider relieve me from my self appointed "cleanup guy" duties, but it is indeed a much needed role on this article where editors are quick to lose focus and make generic statements. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Rookie Digimon (Part 2)[edit]

We've been having a few problems down at List of Rookie Digimon (Part 1), and List of Rookie Digimon (Part 2). This is an example of what one of the pages was like before I removed all the fair use from it. I counted over 30 non free images on the page and unfortunately now both pages keep getting reverted, but quite frankly, all those pics can't stay on there. Can someone take a look at it protection for the pages? Cheers, Ryan Postlethwaite 23:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, waht a mess. What I don't understnd is, how are all of those even truly 'notable'? ThuranX 23:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
i took a peek and i have to support ThuranX's comment. JaakobouChalk Talk 23:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
For a list, the individual entries don't need to be independently notable, they only need to be notable as a group. -Chunky Rice 23:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
point taken. JaakobouChalk Talk 00:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Seconded. Ryan removed the images from part 1, myself from part 2. I'm not particularly concerned with notability issues as its a list and not individual articles, and, frankly, thats not the issue anyway. The images cannot stay, as we all know (but neither Ryan nor I can protect the pages as we've been the ones removing the images). --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 23:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to steer the report to a notability thread, just wondering what the policy justification was. As it's a series of interlinked lists, I suppose that it's not too bad, though I also noticed that some seem to link to fairly blank individual entries consisting of powers and 'genetics'. ThuranX 23:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I brought this up before (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Digimon#Fair use + lists) but didn't get much of an idea. Note that there are many other lists of Digimon - a lot are one or two episode "noteworthy" but there are a couple that are considered main characters. I'd link this back to the WikiProject but would that be canvassing? x42bn6 Talk Mess 04:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Looks like a mess of fair use image in all the Digimon list pages. I see maybe 30 fairuse in Mega, part 1, and Ultimate, part 1 with still another maybe 15 pages like that. This whole thing needs to be settled one way or another. Frankly, why are the lists considerable notable by themselves? I'd suggest what I saw with RuneScape monsters and other stuff and say just send those details over the Digimon wiki (it's GDFL as well so the data can move very quickly). There's just no way to have them here: either we have violating our fair use policy with so many images on one page, we split them into separate pages again (which won't work) or we simply have them with no images, as I can't see a way to have free images available. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Baby steps, baby steps. The images should be dealt with first, and then the notability issue. The images being kept out is more important then the notability issue, at this particular moment anyway, since having non-notable material can't get the site sued. Pardon my melodrama. The Hybrid 05:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Deedstar[edit]

I have blocked all accounts here, may I have a second look? Thanks in advance, Navou banter 03:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Quack! Quack! - Dean Wormer 03:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • endorse per WP:DUCK ++Lar: t/c 11:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • socks' or meats' disruption of RFAs is seriously frowned upon and blocks are unquestionably in order. Carlossuarez46 17:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Immigration to Australia[edit]

Resolved: Article protected by Sarah

Edit war, sock infested. Protect, block etc, please. Someone is bored at work 08:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Userspace Copyright Vandal[edit]

I have indefinitely blocked Limitedlincolns (talk · contribs) as a definite sockpuppet of Wiggl3sLincolns (talk · contribs). They both continually post (after being warned and re-deleted several times, see talk of original account, Wiggl3sLincolns) copyrighted content from the site to their userspace. The original account was blocked for 24 hours, which has since expired. If I could get just a couple of people to keep an eye out for this guy, that'd be great, because I originally found this dispute via OTRS complaint. Regards, ^demon[omg plz] 11:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You should say how you know this is a sock. (I agree it is but...) If you got a CU to look into it you might mention that, or you could say that the one deleted of Limited (he has a total of 1 non and i deleted edit) edit is essentially identical to the most recently deleted edit of Wiggles... makes it blindingly obvious if you're an admin and can see deleteds, but not obvious to non admins. Seems a sound block, but I had to dig around to satisfy myself. Keeping an eye out is always a good idea... ++Lar: t/c 11:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for not making it clearer. The reason it's an obvious sock is because he is A) Posting copyrighted material from the same website, and B) Posting it to userspace, which stood out to me as well. Once again, apologies for not clarifying originally. ^demon[omg plz] 12:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:DUCK. CheckUser is used as little as possible because it does reveal personal information. x42bn6 Talk Mess 16:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Right. No one is saying that a CU is needed, least of all me (because I'd be the one that had to run it? :) ). I think we're all saying that now that the edit pattern is a bit clearer this is an unquestionably sound block. 17:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Help needed[edit]

An editor ( (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) that been adding their own personal experience with Neteller, keeps re-introducing the same non-encyclopedic content, I reverted twice on the Neteller article and twice own the WebMoney article, and I don't want to get into a revert war, any assistance would be appreciated ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 11:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Final warned; happy to block next time. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the help, I can understand why this user is angry, but those edits do not belong in an encyclopedia▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 12:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Today's featured article on Dungeons & Dragons has been inappropirately edited[edit]

Article as it appears contains the following: "Dungeons & Dragons is a structured yet open-ended role-playing game. This stupid game was invented by Brendan Chambers and his friends! they have too much time on their hands. It is normally played indoors with the participants seated around a table-top. Typically, each player controls only a single character.[14]" When you go to edit the page to remove it, the cited bold text does not appear. 12:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't there now. Are you sure the reason it wasn't there when you tried to edit the page wasn't that someone else had already removed it? WjBscribe 12:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's editing foibles can easily be confusing to new editors. It's possible to see vandalism, click "edit" (which loads a newer, fixed version of the page into the edit window) and, confused, click "back" which loads a (cached) view of the page with the original vandalism. It's also possible to make a revert seconds after another user does so, and wonder why your edit doesn't show up in the history. So I can sympathise. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 13:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Bot on IP[edit]

Special:Contributions/ seems to be a bot that forgot to log in. EdokterTalk 13:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Are you sure? Its first 5 edits are obviously human, and the rest aren't really at bot speed, quite possibly just an IP editor with a mission. --W.marsh 14:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, I said "seems". And up to 10 edits per minute seems like a bot to me. EdokterTalk 14:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Speed does not mean bot. Tabbed browsing lets you get all your ducks in a row before you start firing. At first glance the ips contribs seem helpful. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Never said they weren't usefull. Just noticed it and though soneone might recognize the IP and notify him/her. EdokterTalk 15:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fatevan4 (talk · contribs)[edit]

Hello, This user appears to have created an account just to vandalize articles. It was just created and the first edits were change the KFC to Kentucky Dead Chicken. - Jerem43 15:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I warned the user with {{subst:uw-v2}}. You can do this yourself using the templates at WP:UTM. Report the user to WP:AIV if they continue vandalising past a level 4 warning. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 15:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC) (talk · contribs)[edit]

Resolved: blocked for 3 months by User:Raymond arritt

Request permanent block for this user, based on repeated previous warnings & blocks and recent vandalism of List of United States Navy ratings, Captain America, and Cup. A review of this users' edits reveal that nearly all of them are vandalising edits that are ultimately reverted by others.


IPs are never indefinitely blocked because they can point to many people around the world. Simply dump warnings (from WP:UTM) and then when they hit level 4, report them to WP:AIV. x42bn6 Talk Mess 15:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Permanent" is a long time, but it's clear this is a long-time (if low-level) offender. Raymond Arritt 16:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Quack test[edit]

Resolved: sock indef blocked, image deleted, article reverted and watchlisted

Sorry to have one report right after the other...

Snootchie44 (talk · contribs) uploaded some copyvio images to illustrate the Sabrina Lloyd article. As the images were tagged as having various problems, (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) appeared as a bad hand to delete image tags and WP:PUI reports. As warnings accumulated, PixieGuard (talk · contribs) has now appeared and is uploading non-free images of Sabrina Lloyd, and is using them in violation of policy. Videmus Omnia Talk 16:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Quack quack block (and revert). ELIMINATORJR 16:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Unsuitable edit summary and removal of material.[edit]

"If estonian pro-nazis revert it, I will add estonian tyblad sites" [38]. User Beatle Fab Four (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) removed once again sourced and discussed (here and here) material. Gross incivility, threatening and vandalism. Sander Säde 18:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Such summaries are unacceptable. I left him a message to cut it. There is no "threatening" and no "vandalism" though. The material he "threatens" to remove is a content dispute. All there is to it is an uncivil conduct in the content dispute. This by itself is also bad and I left the user a message to this degree. --Irpen 18:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

High traffic article needs TLC[edit]

Social bookmarking is linked from every page of the BBC News website. It could do with a few more sources, ideally treeware as well, and a bit of magic form the formatting and citation gurus. If they are going to cite us as a reference, which is kind of them, I think we should have a go at showcasing how an article should look, yes? Only I know bugger all about social bookmarking... Luckily Versageek stepped up to the plate and added what refs there are (kudos that geek) but is now "off shift" so hopefully some others can also pitch in. Guy (Help!) 18:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Government of Canada[edit]

I've seen a number of instances of vandalism from IP addresses belonging to the Government of Canada in the past few minutes.,,,, and belong to the Government of Canada. The specific addresses that I've seen vandalising are and Please keep an eye open. I blocked one and let the Communications Committee know but it may be necessary to block if this keeps up. Anon-only, of course. --Yamla 18:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Banned user is still editing under another name[edit]

BLueRibbon (talk · contribs) was banned along with several other users in March and April for self-identifying as a pedophile. Two months ago, he responded on a blog post I did about the incident with a statement that he was still editing on Wikipedia under another username.

I alerted Mackensen about this via the email function, but in case BLueRibbon's sock hasn't been unraveled yet I thought I'd post here to get some more eyes on it. Blueboy96 12:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

If the new Username is not disruptive, then what's the purpose of trying to ferret it out? Corvus cornix 17:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:BAN#Evasion and enforcement, "If the banned user creates sock puppet accounts to evade the ban, these may be blocked." so if another account is proven as an alternate account of this banned user regardless if its disruptive or not it should be blocked as a ban evading sock puppet. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Is the user banned as well as blocked? There is a very distinct difference between the two and it doesn't appear that he was banned. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It appears he is only indef blocked. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
At the very least, he's evading his block, and can be dealt with per WP:EVADE. Unfortunately, he left his message on a mirror of my blog at Multiply, and not my main one at LiveJournal--otherwise, I'd be able to provide an IP to check. Blueboy96 19:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Common sense: self-described pedophile evades indef block - yes of course I'll sleuth this. Send me the information you have so far and I'm right on it. DurovaCharge! 01:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If he was blocked for disruption/"bringing the project into disrepute", and his new account isn't, where's the grounds for blocking? --tjstrf talk 01:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOCK, WP:BLOCK, WP:BAN. How is this even a discussion? DurovaCharge! 02:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe the cause for discussion would be that "If he was blocked for disruption/'bringing the project into disrepute', and his new account isn't, where's the grounds for blocking?" --tjstrf talk 02:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In short it's against the rules to create another account while blocked or banned. Doing so is avoiding said block or ban. Anynobody 02:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In that case, it's a bad policy. I agree with tjstrf. If someone is blocked for something as unspecific as "bringing the project into disrepute", and for behavior that the community had no firm policy on back then, I see no reason why we should not let the user in again as long as his behavior stays inoffensive. It is another situation if a user consciously disrupts the project. --Stephan Schulz 02:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The user is a self-described pedophile, indefinitely blocked from the site. You ask me to abandon the investigation because you suppose - lacking any exonerating evidence at all - that this person is behaving responsibly on whatever sockpuppets might surface. Consider the potential real world consequences of such an assumption. It would display an astonishing lapse of judgement to carve an exception to longstanding policy for this of all possible cases. No, I will not do so, and I am rapidly losing respect for those who suggest otherwise. DurovaCharge! 03:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Either he is behaving himself, in which case there is no reason to act, or he is not, in which case he can be dealt with as any other disruptive user. While paedophilia is used as a scareword nowadays, paedophilic desires, if not acted upon, are no more problematic than many other kinds of sexual fantasy. And as for the act, very much depends on details and the reactions of society. I don't think Achilles or Patroclus [*] felt particularly hurt by their reciprocal attention. So we should not stamp this with the "absolute evil" seal, and there is no reason for panic. ([*] Yes, I know that the view of their relationship may be tainted trough the classical age spectacles, and that one was physically older while the other played the dominant role normally reserved for the older partner, and so on, but you get my point) --Stephan Schulz 04:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In most jurisdictions the behavior constitutes a serious felony. Philosophical, historical, or psychological analysis is beside the point. We could have that discussion elsewhere; here I serve an administrative and investigative function. DurovaCharge! 05:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree with the above. Indefinitely blocked users do not get a pass because we assume they're behaving nicely. Having known, banned, and identified pedophiles editing this site brings it into disrepute regardless of what username they use. --Haemo 03:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
And I am flabbergasted by your outright panicky reaction here, Durova. He wasn't blocked for cyberstalking children. --tjstrf talk 04:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Panicky? Certainly not. Responsible. I investigate things where there are grounds for investigation. DurovaCharge! 04:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with tjstrf here. He was blocked (not banned) for disruption. The block of his account is no different than the block of any other vandal's username. Someguy1221 04:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Disruption blocks are different from username blocks: the latter are welcome to return under an appropriate name. Not so for the former, and those who disagree are posting to the wrong venue. Go to policy and seek consensus for a change. DurovaCharge! 04:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
You're hardly the voice of all Wikipedia here, Durova. And you've been here more than long enough to know the rules aren't binding. --tjstrf talk 04:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Eh? I was referring to the blocking of a username for disruption, not the blocking of a username for being a bad username. This is exactly the case in which I think we should ignore all rules. Enforcing a policy for the sole purpose of enforcing a policy is plain silly, even if he is a self-proclaimed pedophile (blocking people for being subjectively disgusting IRL is also silly, even when everyone agrees with you). Further, the block was the unilateral decission of one admin, not a community concensus that he should never ever be allowed to edit ever again. I'm not seeking policy change here, I'm just asking you to not treat this as anything more than someone coming back months after being blocked for vandalism. Someguy1221 04:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
When an editor is blocked for disruption, the editor is unwelcome. I treat this mostly the same as any other editor evading an indefinite block, with the following exception: given a large enough sample of self-declared pedophile accounts, some of them will be active lawbreaking pedophiles. It is common knowledge that such people network and seek victims through the Internet. Where I see the credible potential for such behavior I will investigate it. I have no apologies for doing so, nor do I think such an obvious decision ought to require either defense or explanation. DurovaCharge! 04:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I think you are loosing your normally excellent head here. Given a large enough sample of humans, some of them will be lawbreaking assholes and otherwise undesireable characters. I've not had much experience with "self-declared pedophiles" - as far as I can tell, they are a very rare brand. Most keep their sexual appetites private, probably even more than most of the population. And the "common knowledge" seems to be much like "common sense" - it isn't, if for the other reason. --Stephan Schulz 05:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Given a sufficiently large population of humans, some of them will also commit suicide. When one actually posted a suicide note on Wikipedia I reported it to the Pennsylvania state police. These are disturbing topics, but I would consider myself irresponsible to turn a blind eye to the credible possibility of either. Investigation, coupled with decisive action where appropriate, is the appropriate response. DurovaCharge! 05:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Since Durova requested evidence that he won't repeat his behaviour, I'll present some: he was blocked for saying something. He will doubtless be extremely careful to avoid saying anything disreputable in the future so that he won't be blocked again. --tjstrf talk 04:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Experience demonstrates otherwise with returning sockpuppets of indef blocked accounts. DurovaCharge! 04:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Futurecrime, anyone? --Carnildo 07:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
He is indef blocked not banned that's clear, one thing I don't get is why this case was open here instead of consulting with someone with Checkuser privilege to see if its worthy of further investigation this being an very unusual case. Regardless of that if the user creates any alternate account while the block is there it will be blocked as any other block evading sock would. One last thing I think this user is quasi-banned, there aren't many admins out there that would probably unblock him and we all know what would happen if the comunity was given the final outcome. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually the banning policy defines a community ban as an indefinite block that no administrator is willing to undo. I'm not particularly fond of that definition, but it's written into policy so the distinction is academic. DurovaCharge! 04:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
So if some admin lifts the block on the original name, the user might return with a new name? That does not seem to be be particularly logical... --Stephan Schulz 04:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't defend that version; I argued rather strongly that it's archaic. But yes, that's policy by consensus, and if you'd like to change it seek a new consensus. DurovaCharge! 05:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Since I'm willing to lift the block if he agrees to not resume editing in a manner that will get him blocked again, it's not a community ban. --Carnildo 07:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Note: The original username is too old for a checkuser, those secret records get erased after a time. Someguy1221 04:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Huh, April yeah should have remembered that. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually this person was not blocked for being a self confessed pedophile, but for actively condoning and encouraging sex with children on Wikipedia. If this person is back we need to find him and treat him like the sock puppet of a blocked user, and block him. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 05:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Evidence being... where? Judging by Special:Contributions/BLueRibbon, his entire contribution history consists of one AfD over BoyChat, a few edits to pedophile activism (that were pro-pedophile groups, but not pro-raping children), and arguing on Jimbo's talkpage that pedophiles shouldn't be blocked. Presumably there was something on his userpage as well. --tjstrf talk 06:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget the deleted article logs. They don't show up on contribution histories. DurovaCharge! 07:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Most of us here are admins and can read them. I haven't seen anything in his deleted contributions that could be interpreted as "encouraging sex with children". --Carnildo 07:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There was a line admiting his sexual preference and an external link to a profile of him on some pro-pedo site (I'm not sure exactly what website it was I didn't read it) this made some users blank it a few times and there were some content disputes, that's what was there for those who aren't admins and can't browse the deleted history. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
He did provide a full paragraph detailing all his preferences and stuff early on but it was later reduced to the afore mentioned there were also two links to some websites back then. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I would not support any action against a "self-confessed pedophile" whose wikipedia activities do not touch upon the subject. Words are words, and gropes and gropes. I vaguely recall an incident when a minor person (13 or something) put a userbox advertising himself as a pedophile. He probably did it for fun and ended by being blocked. The current case is altogether different. The guy tried to use Wikipedia to further his unseemly activities and, fully aware that the website is full of minor editors, attempted to insert links to inappropriate pages. This has nothing to do with writing an encyclopaedia and should not be tolerated. For this reason, the new account should be discovered and blocked. We are not supposed to encourage block evasion. I'm surprised that tjstrf finds it appropriate to dispute this contention. --Ghirla-трёп- 07:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Right, that's the "self confessed pedophile" thing. The entire block was so that we could avoid an appearance of impropriety, and as long as he doesn't do it again on his new account, whatever that one is, I'm not seeing where there's a problem. --tjstrf talk 06:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
All of these points have been addressed already. DurovaCharge! 07:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with most of what Durova has said. I don't support turning a blind eye towards this person editing. If they want to return, they need to obtain permission from the ArbCom first. Sarah 05:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

tjstrf I understand the good faith approach you are advocating on this, but perhaps you are unaware of the difference between a ban and a block. A block, which this person's original account currently is, resembles an extended time out rather than a never return action like a ban. (Which by the way, aren't always as final as they sound either.) Here it means this person's behavior has raised concern in the community, which must be addressed before editing can be allowed to resume. If this person wishes to address the issue because they feel it was a mistake, they do have options available under the blocked account. By simply reincarnating without addressing the concerns this person is attempting to sidestep the blocking policy. In short, they can "legally" become unblocked via the arbcom, creating a new account to avoid doing so, and the block, is one reason sock puppets are frowned on. Anynobody 07:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I know this, and would normally agree. The concern here though is that, unlike pretty much all other types of block, the unsurmountable concern is that us knowingly permitting him to edit is unacceptable due to PR concerns. We can't fix that problem through him promising to be good, or any of the other methods we would normally use to let back a person, since the issue has to do with outsider perception. (What are we supposed to say, "He promised he's not a pedophile anymore"?) If you're suggesting he come in through the "backdoor" by privately asking arbcom, then realize that arbcom knowingly permitting him to edit and not telling us is even more of a PR concern than just the community doing it.
So, barring a change in public perspective, we can't knowingly let him back. This, however, is unfair to him, since he wasn't harming the encyclopedia with his article edits, and as such shouldn't be prevented from editing articles. Because of this, the most fair and reasonable thing for all parties involved is simply not to ask. As long as we don't know who he is, we don't have to block him again in order to keep up appearances. It would of course have been ideal if he'd never said he had another account to begin with. --tjstrf talk 08:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
tjs, bear in mind that this is one of those rare cases where the totality of evidence takes a significantly different shape to someone who has the sysop tools. I don't agree with the premise that the indef was purely a PR measure. DurovaCharge! 08:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLOCK is pretty clear on this. He was not banned (as a person), he was blocked (as an account). I don't see any continued blockable behaviour. We don't ask, they don't tell, and we certainly shouldn't start a whichhunt. EdokterTalk 14:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Anouther concern here we need to take into consiteration is how any tracking can/could be done. I would hate to see ChckUser be used for a fishing expitdition when IP evidence is often so unreliable. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
J.S. expresses my concern -- although I'm not as dubious over IP evidence. We shouldn't be engaged in witchunts, & if this person hadn't boasted off-wiki that he was still editting, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Durova wants to look closely at any disruptive editors (whether or not they advocate pederasty) to see if they are this person, I don't think anyone honestly objects. (And if he is nominated for the Admin bit & someone discovers his prior identity, that would be a very good thing.) However, if this person with the loose lips is acting on the level of a WikiGnome, quietly fixing articles & otherwise behaving himself, I believe that aggressively tracking him down & peering into the backgrounds of countless people just to boot him off-Wiki will cause far more trouble than it's worth. Having typed all of this, I just had the belated thought that maybe a simple clarification would address all of our concerns & we could close this thread. -- llywrch 17:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a rather delicate question because most of my research is based upon leads I found in deleted pages. To speak in general terms, I would not characterize this as an instance of a lone individual who made one unfortunate choice of words, got booted off the project for it, and has returned as a quiet wikignome. A nontrivial portion of people who claim to be pedophiles actually are child molesters. It is not my role to attempt a pronouncement on whether this individual crosses that line, but where I see a credible possibility of such a thing I do prioritize it. That's simply common sense. A frequent misuse of WP:AGF is to cross the line into assuming bad faith of anyone who doubts one's trust in some particular individual. DurovaCharge! 01:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of off-wiki activity, BLueRibbon encouraged people to engage in off-wiki harassment of a Wikipedia admin. We should not extend much good faith to this user. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
It's obvious that there is a PR aspect to this sort of discussion, however we needn't actually worry about it because this persons behavior in creating a new account to get around a block would be wrong whether he is a pedophile or was blocked for making personal attacks.
Pedophilia is not why this is an issue, it's an issue because an editor was indefinitely blocked and said editor may be creating socks to evade it. Getting the indefinite block removed from the account is where the pedophilia issue belongs, not enforcing an indefinite block. Anynobody 02:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Matrixism and section in The Matrix (series)‎[edit]

Some uninvolved admin attention, please? Following an AFD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matrixism), the article Matrixism was deleted. Xoloz put a copy in his userspace, at User:Xoloz/Matrixism. It was worked on by a number of editors, and got to a fairly decent standard. It was restored into articlespace, and deleted in a 3rd AFD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matrixism (3rd nomination)) in May, stating it needed to go via AFD. Eventually, a compromise seemed to be arrived at that a section in The Matrix (series) might be appropriate, as there wasn't enough for an article of its own, but the paragraph that did exist was well-referenced, and added a great deal of value to the article (it's at The Matrix (series) if Phil Welch hasn't removed it again). There seems to be a fairly strong agreement to keep the content there, apart from Phil Welch (who actually initiated the initial deletion discussion way back in 2005). Now, keeping it there or not would ordinarily be a content dispute, and no admin attention would be needed, but consensus is to keep the information, Phil keeps removing it (usually with edit summaries of "bullshit" or "linkspam"), and then tagging the Matrixism redirect for speedy deletion. If the information is there, the redirect needs to stay to preserve GFDL. As consensus is to keep the information in the The Matrix (series) article, the redirect also needs to remain. As I'm involved in the content disagreement, it's not proper for me to protect it. Could someone else look into this? Ideally, I'd like to see some kind of discussion on the talk page of the article, but Phil is edit-warring to keep it gone - and it needs to be there to discuss its merits. Neil  12:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

  • So what you're saying is that we deleted the article because of a complete lack of reliable sources, so instead it's now a section in the Matrix article with the same unreliable sources that got it deleted, and that you think Phil is a Bad Man because he's removing the vapid self-promotion of the handful of loons who promote this non-religion, yes? Chunks of it were sourced from blogs and other ephemera, I think Phil will have less of a problem with my revised version which is less about trying to pretend it's a real religion (which it clearly isn't) and more about documenting it as a spoof religion that a couple of people have mentioned in passing (which it is). Also, I notice that although you assert that you want to take this to the talk page, you haven't. Guy (Help!) 15:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Guy, for utterly failing to understand my point, and for insultingly describing myself and Xoloz, among others, as a "handful of loons". Also, your description of the article as having a "complete lack of reliable sources" is flat-out dishonest (I count 9). Neil  17:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You mention "Phil is edit-warring to keep it gone" -- he must be warring with someone, yes? It takes two to tango. As a group, people should be able to discuss the content just fine if you provide an oldid permalink including it in the page. Talk pages are great for talking -- edit wars not so much. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Luna Santin, for what I think is a very good observation. If you insist on edit warring, you only get to argue your case three times a day before you risk being blocked... and maybe not even that. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 04:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I didn't misunderstand you at all. You want other people to tell the nasty man to go away on the basis that your version of events is The Truth™. I am far form being the only admin who is inclined to scepticism in such cases. The sources are not reliable because they all trace back to the same Geocities page. I suggest you engage your critical faculties a little more. The only thing we know for sure about Matrixism the "religion" is that it is vanishingly small and of pretty much zero measurable significance - that was established a long time ago and in the intervening period nothing has changed except the number of claimed adherents on said Geocities website. It's a fans' joke, and should be treated as such. Guy (Help!) 20:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Back to the point: I came across this last night while whittling down the speedy list - it helps me sleep (;-P) and noticed the whole history including Xoloz's userfication and subsequent build up and redirection. AfD's address content not title. The same content under a different title is G4 bait. Different content at the same place is not. Placing a redirect where the deleted article was is proper. The rest is just a content discussion of whether it ought to be or not be in the Matrix articles, and that should be solved on the talk page and other ways in which content disputes are handled. Carlossuarez46 21:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am somewhat to blame for this current stramash. Here is what happened. There has been occasional questions at WP:RD about Matrixism, most recently Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 August 23#Matrixism. A self proclaimed anti-deletionist StuRat (talk · contribs) took exception to the fact the article had been deleted and not merged per the original AfD and moved the previously userfied content to form a section in the main article. He asked me to redirect the WP:SALTed Matrixism article there. I declined to do so immediately, per its deletion review and history of admin action. However, I noted that an AfD had closed as a merge and direct, and the material seemed appropriate as a subsection. So I told him that, if the material is accepted there for a week or two without significant challenge, then I will unsalt and redirect to there. There was no protest about the content seven days later, so I unsalted and redirected. I hold no opinion on whether the material should stay or not, I simply acted out of process on the request of an editor. Rockpocket 01:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The original "merge and redirect" was to The Matrix. By consensus on Talk:The Matrix, the merged content was rejected. The redirect went to RFD and was deleted there. The first AFD certainly does not tell the whole story. Anyway, the new article was merged to The Matrix (series), but still formatted as its own article, before it was edited down. Since it read like a total tangent (and among other things, categorized the film trilogy itself as a "new religious movement"), I've split it back out to its own article at Matrixism (after suggesting twice to do so on Talk:The Matrix (series) without objections). As to the Reference Desk question, it came from an anonymous IP. Since about 2005, anonymous IPs have been linkspamming for the Matrixism website (a Geocities page) in a multitude of articles, as documented here. Anonymous IPs have also been behind the creation and re-creation of the Matrixism content. A web search shows that there's been a campaign to promote Matrixism on webforums and the like, matching this promotional behavior on Wikipedia. (I should also point out that the latest IP associated with this behavior has also posted a bizarre personal attack on my talkpage.) Anyway, I expect to prepare a third AFD shortly to settle this Matrixism issue, and may prepare it myself. Philwelch 15:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Phil, proposing a reinstatement at around 2am GMT and then deciding that lack of input by 2pm GMT equates to consensus for restore, in the face of deletion and reviews as already noted, is very foolish. If you want the deletion reversed, go to deletion review. I don't hold out much hope of success as no new independent sources appear to have been found since the last review. This is a very minor joke in Matrix fandom. I don't see the problem with mentioning the minor joke in the matrix series article, but I do see a problem with having a separate article, because every time we debate that we get the same answer. Guy (Help!) 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Grafting a largely-unrelated, tangential article onto The Matrix (series) like a parasite attaching to a host isn't a solution either, and I don't see any way of better integrating it into the page content—and this is to say nothing of the undue weight and notability problems, which still exist. Splitting it back to its own article would allow for a third AFD to resettle the issue. (Furthermore, I don't even think Matrixism is notable within the context of the film series, certainly not enough to merit its own section). If you can suggest a better way to unify discussion venues (as to prevent discussion sprawl and forum shopping) and gain a definitive new consensus, I'm open to suggestions. Philwelch 16:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I found a way. It's fairly well integrated now, but I still have some concerns about undue weight and notability. Philwelch 00:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wacky bot[edit]

While not an emergency, User:OsamaKBOT (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is marking fair use logos as unsourced and up for deletion. Logos are inherently fair use, and there really aren't valid sources that I can think of for logos anyway. Several editors have notified the owner of this behavior (see USER TALK:OsamaKBOT), but the owner doesn't think there is a problem. Not sure what else should be done, if anything. /Blaxthos 19:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Why can't a logo be given a source? Seems easy enough. Videmus Omnia Talk 19:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Logos are not inherently fair use. They only satisfy our non-free content criteria if they are used in conformity therewith. And all images have a source. -- But|seriously|folks  19:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
No valid sources? Unless it was uploaded by someone from the company's ad department, the image had to come from somewhere, most likely from the intenet. The company website perhaps? Sources should be easy to find. Mr.Z-man 20:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Most of these logos are for long defunt companies. I personally have about 10 or 20 defunt company logos in my collection obtained from various employers and partners. /Blaxthos 19:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Long term vandalism by IP range (again)[edit]

Someone has been vandalizing The Fairly OddParents and related articles for some time now. The vandal will make a few to several dozen edits every week or so under a different IP starting with 201.9. The edit is subtle, almost always changing a date to be one year earlier, such as this recent series of edits. This has been happening at least since March 2007, earliest edit I found was this one.

This is the second time I am reporting this, the first time the range was blocked, but undone shortly after. Since the vandal has persisted for a rather long time, I doubt a block would be of much help anyway.

Most recent IP was, making 4 (now 9) edits.

Is it possible for someone to contact the ISP and report the abuse? CoJaBo 22:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not really long enough for a long-term report - that said, the blocks should get longer if you keep reporting them to WP:AIV, and semi-protection might be a good alternative. x42bn6 Talk Mess 04:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe you may have misunderstood the problem, it isn't 1 IP, its a vandal with a dynamic IP range of 216 IPs. By the looks of it, the vandal's number of edits may exceed 100. Based on the pattern of repeated vandalism, the IP changes at least weekly. Semi-protection is unlikely to work, the vandal moved on to Pokemon-related articles after noticing I reverted the OddParents ones [39]. As blocking the entire IP range or semi-protecting all cartoon-related articles containing dates would likely be disruptive to legitimate editors, I think the only solution is to contact the vandal's ISP and let them deal with it. CoJaBo 02:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Crocker (internet celebrity)‎[edit]

Just an early warning and a hunch, but I have a feeling that this is NOT going to end well. Some experienced eyes on this and on the original article may be necessary. --Calton | Talk 08:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have it watchlisted, I'll close it in a few days, (currently looks like a no consensus, but it could change). Thanks Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 19:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Blackshirts: more than personal attack[edit]

Please view this and take the appropriate administrative action. Jeffpw 08:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

He's already blocked indefinitely. Lupo 08:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Quite seriously, I have never had somebody write something so awful to me on the internet, and I certainly never expected it to happen here on Wikipedia. Jeffpw 08:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
We get all kinds of people, from the best to the worst. And a fair amount of nutcases, too. Just don't take anything like that personally; it comes from a truly sick mind. Lupo 10:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

On the side: anyone who knows enough European history should know that someone with a name like "Blackshirts" is asking for trouble and will be trouble. I see that he was not on the project very long, but why was he able to take a name like that? In my part of the world, "fascist" is only written, the spoken word is still "zwart hemd", Dutch for "black shirt".--Pan Gerwazy 10:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do not take offence from such nasty people. Instead, continue to do the right thing, and report it. Thanks, -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 11:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Why was this person getting warnings instead of an immediate block after the first edit? Corvus cornix 16:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering why it wasn't given an immediate block based on the user name alone, or blocked immediately as Wiki Brownshirts (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) before him was. --Calton | Talk 17:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Many users, even including a few admins, believe that going through the full warning series is always necessary. I'd have indefblocked after that first edit with no more regrets than if I was swatting a mosquito had I known about it. Raymond Arritt 17:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Guys, I had already blocked him 22 minutes before Jeff posted his notice here. In fact, as soon as I noticed him. What do you expect? We're all volunteers here. Things slip through RC, and people aren't monitoring the user creation log constantly. Just business as usual. Lupo 17:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Heh, I didn't even look at his talk page. So scrap my comment. Lupo 17:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody know where User:Hayden5650 was from? We've now got an Australian IP address at (talk · contribs) committing similar acts, although since blocked briefly. Corvus cornix 18:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where Hayden5650 was from, but Wiki Blackshirts claimed he was from New Zealand, which would fit with your Australian anon IP. I'm glad the community is taking this seriously. I just can't express how upsetting it is to have messages like that pop into your talk page. Jeffpw 18:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If you look in the history of Hayden5650's user page, at one point it had Category:Wikipedians in New Zealand on it. Then again, when he created it he had a an Admin userbox, & claimed that his page had been vandalized 15,000 times; who knows what the truth about him is? (Although to not only know about userboxes, but Admins suggests that this was not his first account on Wikipedia.) -- llywrch 18:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had many encounters with this person. He is 19-20 years old, of Oamaru, New Zealand. He's a racist/bigot and the message on Jeff's page was terrible and what he wrote to User:Muntuwandi was just as terrrible if not worse. He also added a swastika to my page as well, and called me ugly names. Also he once admitted to me that he hates Muntuwandi with a passion and wants him dead. UGH, and he keeps coming back again and again after a block. He'll be back again. sigh - Jeeny Talk 20:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, so now I'm confused. When I did the initial whois click on the above IP address, it resolved to Australia. Now it says United Kingdom. Corvus cornix 22:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Open proxy might be a valid explanation. Listed on WP:OP. MER-C 03:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a CU related block which might potentially be connected - let me contact the CU person. It came up on unblock-en-l, and I can't go into details on wiki due to privacy policy. Georgewilliamherbert 20:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This was apparently unrelated. Georgewilliamherbert 22:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered IV[edit]

i'm not going to spend time sourcing to any recent issues with User:PalestineRemembered since i would find it futile as long as the previous issue is unresolved.

a little while back, he's been taken to the WP:CSN (archive 11) with the proposition to ban him from the commnity and he's been given the leeway to be assigned a mentor to resolve some issues with his conduct on wikipedia.

i believe he has yet to find such a mentor and that he continues as if nothing had happened.[40]

i'd request some assistance in resolving this non-existant mentor issue. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Users are given latitude as to what comments to keep and delete from their own user talk. However, removal of material is recognized as having read it, and now s/he's been warned of the harrassment you claim. If s/he conducts further harrassment, please report it - and link back here so that whoever has to deal with it knows that this editor has been warned of it before. I have no comment as to mentorship. Carlossuarez46 17:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not following User:Jaakobou around or wiki-stalking him. He's likely picked up the English word "harrassment" from others who have suffered his aggressive contributions to their TalkPages. Here are two admins claiming he's harrassed them at this AN/I and been blocked for it. See also [41] and [42], all from the same date. These further two exchanges are action against editors who (I'm pretty sure) are careful and productive - yet it includes posting their personal details into public view. One day Jaakobou might easily suffer angry retaliation - but it's not coming from me! PalestineRemembered 00:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I have no change in my opinion from that CSN discussion. I've never heard of a case of mentorship working. I don't care if he has a mentor or not. I don't want to see a community action for editors in this topic area, because there is too much violation of WP:BATTLEGROUND in the topic area for me to find a community action highly creditable. I think the rest of the community needs to find a solution to provide leadership to the disputes regarding the topic area, but lack ideas for viable solutions. The only idea (applied currently elsewhere) I'm aware of that theoretically sounds promising doesn't seem to be helping in the topical area where it is being applied. This opinion was solicited by the thread originator; I'm not sure why I was chosen. GRBerry 18:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • comment, i noted people involved on the CSN, mostly those who accepted the mentor suggestion, which has yet to be implemented. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I am prepared to act as a mentor in the short term do people view this as acceptable?Geni 22:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Eh PalestineRemembered appears to be being mentored by user:HG.Geni 22:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Okey it appears not. I am prepared to mentor as long as far as possible past events on Wikipedia are left in the past and are not used as ammunition in future disputes. Do people view this as acceptable?Geni 00:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wildly inappropriate links[edit]

I am pruning a lot of links to Stormfront (Special:Linksearch/* - we should not be using Stormfront as a source for anything outside of its own existence, I'd say, as it is close to the perfect definition of "unreliable". In the mean time, could someone please take a machete to Stereotypes of East and Southeast Asians. Thanks. Guy (Help!) 18:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Detectives: it may be worth tracking down who added this one Guy (Help!) 18:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • 'Evening all. The link was originally to the book as hosted David Irving's publishers, and was present in the very first version of the page. The link was 'fixed' to last Christmas Eve [43] by Keesiewonder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). The other link to David Irving's own site ( was added by Piotrus on 9 March 2005 here. Sam Blacketer 18:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • (a.e.c. with Sam, whose summary is both shorter and more complete than mine!) Well, a link to the text of the book, albeit as hosted on, was included in the very first version of the page (and in the version of the page that was promoted to FA status in March 2005), and I don't know that one can say that the insertion of the link to the same treatise was in any way untoward or disruptive, except perhaps to the extent that the page was a copyright infringement (the page is no longer up, so I can't readily tell whether the text of the Irving work was hosted with permission, etc., or was a blatant copyvio, to which we would probably not, consistent with WP:C, have linked) or to the extent that a perfectly fine link was unnecessarily replaced with a link to a page that comprises the same text as does that of the former (but exists on a less reputable/more controversial website). If you mean to suggest, though, that, all copyright/reliability issues aside, we would do well not to link to a page to which we would otherwise link (per WP:EL) solely because it is hosted on a site the tenor of which doesn't fit particularly well with the article whence we link (here, for instance, we linked to a worldwide white nationalist site in an article about the Prime Minister of the WWII Polish government-in-exile), as you seem to in your link excision edit summary, well, then, I'd have to suppose that yours is not a conception of WP:EL, etc., that commands a consensus of the community. Joe 19:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • David Irving's views are not considered credible by anybody these days, though, are they? Regardless, linking to Irving is problematic, linking to Irving hosted on Stormfront is just wrong. Guy (Help!) 19:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm bound to say I agree. The issue isn't so much that Irving has controversial opinions (lots of reliable sources come from the opinionated), but that a judgment of the High Court cast considerable doubts on his historical method and that respected historians in his field regard him as producing works of dubious validity. That is probably why, after long debate, his own biographical article refers to him as a "writer" and not a "historian". Sam Blacketer 19:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been smacking down the FUD at Stereotypes of East and Southeast Asians, but wouldn't mind a review, and maybe a tagging in of another editor on the article, here's my work thus far: [44]. Thoughts and reviews to that page's talk. ThuranX 00:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, compliments and respect to JzG, who seems to have taken that entire external links listing down to talk pages, archives talk pages, user and user talks, and maybe half a dozen legit linkings. I left notes at one locked down page he may have missed, that the reguar editors sould probably drop it, but that's it. Nice work. ThuranX 00:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


This was originaly posted on WP:AIV, although I expected it to come here. My AIV post was as follows:

  • Mandsford (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) - Rather confrontational on AfD pages, I wouldn't personaly view it as bad enough to warn, but others do, and he doesn't seem to be cooling down. This may need moved to the noticeboard for full discusion; I don't know if action is required or not (although I feel at worst another warning would suffice).

Comments? Bear in mind I've just had a minor dispute with him, so I could be taken as having a 'grudge to settle', although I really don't think anyone would take that stance with this one (possibly the only thing I'm sure about in this case). Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 18:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest that you check above thread #Ethnic slurs, personal attacks, and incivility by User:Mandsford in afd discussions. I assume that covers the same isssue. --Tikiwont 18:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thanks, although he's been doing it more recently than is mentioned there... Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 18:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, if you think so it might still be better if you comment there as well and be specific (diffs). --Tikiwont 18:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already commented, and will try to find time to fish out diffs soon (working in tandem on something for Wikinews right now). Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 18:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


Would somebody please semi-protect Tecumseh? I've asked at RFPP, but it's out of control. Corvus cornix 18:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Someone should block the entire IP range for Mason Consolidated Schools - all vandalism to this article emanates from that range. I blocked one culprit, and noticed another had been blocked. I will semi-protect the page in the interim. The School range apparently has come to someone's attention before given the warnings on some of the IPs. Carlossuarez46 18:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree with Carlos there. It was probably several kids in the same computer lab working together. Thanks, Carlos. Corvus cornix 18:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


DIGITESTAN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), who is also to a very high degree of probability Relativity Priority Disputation (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), has been taking on all comers at Christopher Jon Bjerknes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). As far as I can tell this editor is not interested in anything other than getting his point of view into the article; his version of "cited" is an interesting one, encompassing as it does links to some pretty dodgy sources. Alvestrand is trying hard to make a proepr article out of this, as an editor interested in the controversy, but DIGITESTAN is making that pretty much impossible. I have therefore blocked DIGITESTAN indefinitely, as a dead loss. If he ever shows any sign of calming down sufficiently to engage in something approaching rational debate then I'll happily unblock him, but obsessive POV-pushing edit warriors are one of the things we can do without. Guy (Help!) 19:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

While I am involved, I agree with this block. There's a very good chance that Relative Priority Disputation and Bjerknes are the same person; if they're not, they're clearly here to promote an agenda.-Wafulz 19:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

OsamaK bot[edit]

I've left a message (rather harsh perhaps, but I feel he's not been very communicative or friendly with other users complaining about the same problem) on his talk page about the logo source problem. My interpretation of policy is outlined in the message, so I won't repeat myself here. Any opinions? I think it's a shame to see so much work going down the drain just because the uploaders didn't explicitly put a "source" chapter in the description (the organisation given in the description is obviously the copyright holder). This isn't a legal problem, it's a layout problem. Personally, I think the bot needs to be stopped until it's corrected, but I'd like your opinion. Thanks. yandman 19:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What would you have the bot do? If people can't put the proper sourcing on their image pages, the pages should be deleted. The bot is doing its job. It's another Betacommand straw man argument: "The bot isn't working correctly." No, wrong, the bot is doing what it is supposed to do. Corvus cornix 20:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
My whole point is that for all these logos the sourcing is there: The image descriptions always contain the name of the company. It's just not been put under a "source" title (the policy clearly states "Source: The copyright holder of the image"). Is a layout problem really worth deleting an image for? Why is this a strawman argument? I know it would make things easier if everyone tagged their images correctly, but then again most new articles have problems, it doesn't mean we delete them. What I'm saying here is that we're applying a legal-problem type solution (i.e. "shoot first and ask questions later") to a stylistic problem. I'm sorry, but I can't see any justification (legal or not) for deleting all these logos (very few of the original uploaders are still active, so most of the time no-one will even know what happened) just because the uploaders didn't repeat themselves in the image description comments. yandman 21:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The source is supposed to be provided for verification of the copyright. That's why we need it — you can't just say "Source is the company whose logo it is" without some evidence of where you retrieved it from. Otherwise, how does anyone know that your assertion that this particular company holds the copyright to this particular logo? If someone disputes the claim, then there's nothing to go on. --Haemo 22:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

American Family Association[edit]

There seems to be a long-running edit war on that page between CMMK and Hal Cross over whether to use a description closer to the "official" description or not. WAVY 10 20:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Second opinion on block for User:Malbrain[edit]

Tom Harrison has blocked this user, but not provided an explanation. He also listed the user on Community Sanctions. There are no obvious reasons for this block. I have placed a request for an explanation on Tom's user page, but in my opinion that user should be given the benefit of the doubt and unblocked. I would prefer a second opinion from another admin before overriding Tom. Banno 22:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If you think he should be unblocked, do so. When I posted on the other notice board I said "Review and undo welcome," meaning that anyone who wanted to could unblock without further input from me. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Tom Harrison Talk 23:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Biased admins[edit]

I don't know how long I'll last on wiki if I'm confronted with repelling pov-bias as it concerns actually "administrators".. Namely the user dab. Firstly, he's apparently on some race/afrocentrism crusade and it reflects in his biased edits and biased appeals for help in confiding in other admins. Firstly, he shows up to this article[45] trying to push his biased point of view, making unsubstantiated claims about the entire article, that people worked hard to build up, with out even citing any sources for his claim.

Based on that, he proposes a move. Interestingly, he participated in a POV-fork for that article, and when it was finally discovered and deleted, he created the page again and redirected it.[46]. He also makes his bias known by editing the protected page and imposing his unsourced biased edits[47], even though he self reverts when he sees that the page is protected. Though he still makes additional edits.[48]

It is notable that no other admin touched that page with out a request or consensus, and he obviously has something at stake or personally invested that he needs to make known. It is rare that I see an admin make an edit to an article with out a rwquest to do so or with out getting rid of vandalism. He then takes his Pov pushing to the fringe boards, pushing his race-based venom, introducing a fringe topic in of its self (race), but focusing on one dimension of it (black people to criticize), as it concerns the last article.[49].

He then takes his war to other pages, reverting cited material like any other problematic editor would, leading to edit wars and eventually leading to a page protection.[50].. In the mean time, prior to this, he's thinking of more manipulative ways to get his point across with protected pages, so he makes up a fake name of some non-existent discipline called "Afrocentrist Egyptology", then links it to the very page that he had disputes with([51]), pushing his original research and trying to emphatically label an entire disputed and protected article to his liking. Not to mention, that he makes two of them.[52][53].

What I do, is move the page to another name and redirect it, he reverts. So I bring notice to this and request speedy deletion for a noncontexualized page which consists of a misnomer that has no correlation or is not a synonym/or inextricably linked adequately to the article in which he tries to redirect it. He removes the speedy tag (see history). They indeed get deleted. What he then does is recreate them both and pms the deleting admin[54], obscuring the reason why it had been deleted and emphasizing that it wasn't a typo, when no such complaint was made, even though it is a typo. The Admin claims that he doesn't necessarily agree with his edits, but it wasn't criteria for speedy deletion, which I disagree with. He also personally attacks users by calling them "trolls"[55], and leaves a message on my talk page, accusing me personally of being one[56], using his rhetoric to undermine editors and degrade them while appealing to fellow admins for help.

I'm sure there is more, but this is what came to mind. I had no idea that he was an admin based on the way he carries himself and his general tone in discussion. I was surprised to find that out.Taharqa 19:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

And what do you want us to do? Maxim(talk) 00:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yo. Cap'n Wallatext. Paragraphs. Use 'em. HalfShadow 00:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just another complaint about Dbachmann because he stomped on another fringe theory. Nothing new, nothing credible - in other words, nothing to see here. The Behnam 00:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Havent Dbachmann, and Muntuwandi been here before for Afrocentrism related fightings MANY times? Is there any way to sort any of this out? It's POV 1 versus POV 2, round 9... or 10... Should a general RfC on their fight be opened? or what? ThuranX 01:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Fringe theories should be discussed at WP:FRINGE noticeboard. If there is a conclusion that it is not fringe, then we can look upon behavior of parties - although WP:DR may be a good idea first.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I know this isn't admin related, but if there is anybody out there who enjoys overhauling articles, is good at separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to reliable sourcing, and isn't bothered by constant fighting, we badly need you. This whole series of articles is in a state of disrepair. Picaroon (t) 01:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
That generally happens - I think it is because these little-known and little-respected fringe theories are more apt to attract the interest of editors who support the theory. It is thanks to motivated users like Dbachmann that our coverage of these theories is made compliant with WP standards, which usually involves difficult editing laden with edit wars, SPAs, much OR, and incoherent polemic talk page posts riddled with conduct violations. The Behnam 04:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Picaroon, it won't happen on these particular articles. Anyone who tries anything like that will be reported by one side or the other as a POV warrior. I've seen arguments about lack of multiple citation, quality of citation ,and on and on and on. I avoid as best as possible pages that those two are on, because they decide whoe side you're on, no matter what you say. Forget it. ThuranX 04:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

KansasCity (talk · contribs)[edit]