Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive326

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User:Neverpitch's only contributions have been to randomly remove PRODs from articles in bad faith with the same reason of "Wikipedia is not supposed to be a bureaucracy, Wikipedia is not paper." Appears to just be a POV/ideology push rather than legitimate PROD disagreements (it looks like he just went alphabetically through a list). Originally reported to Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. An admin left him a note about being distruptive, and his responses seem to confirm that he is only doing it to make a point about his disagreements on the deletion process. The vandalism case was closed as not being obvious and it was recommended I posted here. Here are the comments from other admins about the issue from there [1] including one that notes this may be a sockpuppet account. Collectonian 20:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've had a look. I don't see how proding makes us bueracratic, it's a good way to get around AFDs when the result will obviously be delete but the article meets no CSDs. I think an admin should have a word with him--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 20:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a second admin has left him a note, to which he seems to basically be responding to with "I'm not disruptive, you are." He is also continuing to both remove PRODs and notability delete tags in bad faith and repeat the same "reasoning" across a plethora of AfDs. Collectonian 02:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
He is also now adding to his seemingly disruptive behaviour by running through other PRODs and redirecting them to other articles, without actually merging anything from them, such as Undermine (Warcraft) and Tarren Mill. Collectonian 02:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea why you are complaining. With the PRODS in place, the articles would have been deleted without any merges being done either, yet I don't see you whining about the people who inserted the PRODS into the articles.--Neverpitch 03:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Probably because we don't care either way about gamecruft being preserved. JuJube 08:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Need a regex[edit]

Can someone write me a regex so that I could use AWB to deal with [2] this? It's going to be deleted as a result of a TfD, but I have no idea how to regex it and I don't want to remove them by hand. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 01:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You could go to the "Find and replace" feature of AWB and put {{McGrawHillAnimation}} to be replaced with nothing (or if that doesn't work then a new line). I'm not great with regex's though so it may or may not work. James086Talk | Email 02:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm quite familiar with the find and replace function, the only problem is that the template has variable parameters, so find and replace has trouble with a text-based search. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 02:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It's me to the rescue again. Try \*? ?\{\{[mM]cGrawHillAnimation.*\}\}, or if you're feeling adventurous, \n?\*? ?\{\{[mM]cGrawHillAnimation.*\}\} east.718 at 02:17, 11/14/2007
I'd recommend (\*\s+)*{{McGrawHillAnimation[^}]*}}\s* instead and set AWB to case insensitive. There could be multiple spaces and your last wildcard could match more than intended as it's greedy. -- JLaTondre 02:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I hate to tell you guys, but none of those work. Does anyone think that these link templates are inadvisable for these reasons? Why do we need templates to do the links, it makes them nearly impossible to remove easily. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 03:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Done manually, thanks for the help though. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 03:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
:( Just for the future, you can use these two sites to craft your own. east.718 at 03:54, 11/14/2007
Out of curiosity, why was this posted on the board for incidents requiring administrator actions? Neil  10:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I actually tested it in AWB before posting it. It's possible I copy-n-pasted wrong, though it looks right. Are you sure you selected the Regex checkbox? AWB won't treat it as a Regex unless you do. -- JLaTondre 11:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Moon question[edit]


I don't deal with any of the various moon articles, but can someone tell me if Metebelis is being constructive or not with his/her edits? IrishGuy talk 02:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine to me... Some cleanup and adding Moons of (Planet Name) collapsible boxes. Seems OK FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a PS. I was looking at the edit histories of some of the articles, and there seems to be something that was either breaking boxes, or ... well, I'm not sure, but it was leaving fragements of what looked like code from a template: for example in Tethys (moon), it left "... | Enceladus | Telesto, Tethys and Calypso | Polydeuces, Dione and Helene | ...".
I thought it was a particular bot, but I found a couple where that bot hadn't been. So, if anyone sees this, they might want to take a look. That said, Metebelis's edits are cleaning them up. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent. Thanks for looking into it. IrishGuy talk 18:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Clive Bull has been incorrectly protected against "vandalism" by User:The-G-Unit-Boss[edit]

The Clive Bull article has long been a target against vandalism by people adding insults and uncited material. Several days ago I reverted some vandalism and removed some claims that have been uncited for 10 months. I have previously asked for citations in edit summaries, but none were added. I have asked the editors who added the material on their talk pages for citations, but none were added. I have added "citation needed" tags for these claims, but none were added. I have added a huge hidden comment in the article asking for citations, but still none have been added.

So I removed the unsourced claims a few days ago, there followed a few reverts by a disruptive editor/s, claiming my edits were "rascist" (sic) and "sickofantic" (sic).

Now the article has been reverted to the version that includes the 10 month old uncited statement (it has a fake citation, ie the name isn't mentioned anywhere on the url cited), and User:The-G-Unit-Boss has protected it. I don't mind if the article is protected, as that will stop people vandalizing it and adding dubious statements, but can someone please at least revert it to this version, which contains up to date citations for everything]. 04:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

m:Wrong Version. You may be interested in that article. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 04:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The article is only semi-protected, and based on the level of IP edit warring, that was a good call.
As administrators, we are not really supposed to pick a "right" version during an edit war. If you believe there is a genuine sourcing problem, I suggest taking it to the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Please be very specific about your accuracy concerns. -- Satori Son 04:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
If it's a content dispute, it's fully protected. Doesn't matter who is edit warring. Semi-protection is only for vandalism. —bbatsell ¿? 05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
True enough - my bad. Still, if they have BLP issues, the noticeboard seems the way to go. -- Satori Son 06:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The first step should have been to take it up with User:The-G-Unit-Boss, not come here. EVula // talk // // 06:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I was going to ask him first, but I saw he hadn't made any edits for several hours and I was hoping this could be corrected before waiting until tomorrow. I asked for help with this article 3 months ago here, all I am trying to do is make sure everything in Clive's article follows WP:V and WP:RS. This may seem like a minor thing, but I listen to the show and I haven't heard this caller identified by his full name. I could say I heard Howard Stern phone the show calling himself "Howard from New York", that wouldn't be true but no one can prove it didn't happen, which is why I think citations are especially important for claims about things people heard on the radio. I will try the BLP board later. Thanks for the advice here. 06:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Abusive sockpuppetry suspicions[edit]

Hi, I've been harrassed by a bunch of sockpuppet accounts vandalising my user page and talk pages:

My suspicion is that the series of sockpuppet accounts are related to User:Peter zhou, based on the facts that:

  1. User:Peter zhou has been the sole representative of the opposing side of a dispute on Talk:China.
  2. The vandalism started on November 11, and the dispute on Talk:China really got going on November 10: see this and subsequent edits.
  3. Since that time, I have not been involved in any other disputes.

I'm wondering if an admin could help me to confirm that these sockpuppets are linked, and moreover whether they are linked to User:Peter zhou. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Administrators do not have the power to check users. You want Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 05:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
They have all been indefinitely blocked.--Sandahl 05:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
okay, thanks - I have submitted a checkuser request there to check the vandal accounts against User:Peter zhou. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are related SSP cases on this, see SSP on Sumple and the RFCU.RlevseTalk 13:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Massive copyright violations[edit]


I would prefer that another admin more well-versed in copyright issues than me check out the history and uploads of Isida1028 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). Thanks, east.718 at 06:28, 11/14/2007

All of them should be speedied, IMHO. MaxSem(Han shot first!) 07:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
All deleted as copyvios. User appears to be editing in good faith, so I don't want to block, but I will have a word with him on his talk page. Neil  10:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Neverpitch (2nd discussion)[edit]

Neverpitch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
User made a personal attack towards me. I added a note to the discussion page that those are not acceptable. I also left a notice on the users talk page. The user then made another personal attack and I left another warning on the users talk page as well as struck out the personal attacks from the AfD page, as that is not relevant discussion, obviously. The user then reverted the strike out (which to me seems like additional personal attacks) so I re-struck them and left a final warning for the attacks. The user then removed the strike outs once again, hiding behind Wikipedia is not censored, which doesn't apply to personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if an admin could re-strike the personal attack comments on the AfD Discussion and have a word with the user. - Rjd0060 07:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

User warned and attack removed. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the speedy response. I'm glad all the admin's dont have a bedtime. - Rjd0060 07:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Seconding CBW's response, for what it's worth. – Luna Santin (talk) 09:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the user has C&P'ed the same "Keep" criteria to many AfD discussion pages, mostly on gaming-related ones. Sounds disruptive to me. JuJube 08:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he did, after he randomly went through and removed PRODs from multiple articles with those same criteria. His behavior seemed very disruptive, and was noted above :) Collectonian 08:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Detroiterbot malfunctioning[edit]

Resolved: isolated incident, operator notified Mr.Z-man 18:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)~

Detroiterbot malfunctioning

Can someone block the bot until it is repaired? See history on San Diego, California to see problem; bot changing information in infobox rather than just changing labels and style, etc. as designed.--Markisgreen 16:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The bot hasn't edited that page. Am i missing something. From its contribs it seems to be working fine. Woodym555 16:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
sorry I put the wrong link, i was looking at both pages, i corrected the link above, it was San Diego not Walla Walla--Markisgreen 16:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Still not seeing it. Got a diff? spryde | talk 16:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think he's talking about San Diego County, California, where the bot made this edit. --OnoremDil 16:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You got it. Sorry for misdirection.--Markisgreen 16:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be an isolated incident where it got confused with the comma. Looking across it's other contribution randomly, i couldn't find any other problems. The user is aware that it malfunctioned. Woodym555 17:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Its also been inactive for about 3 hours. Mr.Z-man 18:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerns about User:TougHHead[edit]

Hello, this user has been constantly adding non notable references to aircraft related articles, particularly F-15 Eagle and F-22 Raptor. [14] [15]. Looking at his contribs and talk page warnings, he has been disruptive as well. Perhaps suggestions would be in order? Thanks. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Leave me and those users alone. I got banned from Wikia and all Wiki Projects and now not here too. PsiSevereHead and Angela banned me without showing how long I am blocked and finally someone plots to get me banned everywhere.(TougHHead 01:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC))

Perhaps I misread that, I am can tell you that I am not plotting to ban you everywhere. No one is. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt but I have noted a particularly uncivil and intemperate series of exchanges involving TougHHead. The following are recent examples of editwarring: removing an admin's cautionary note, edit war with two other editors, replacing titles established under WP:AIR/PC guidelines, inappropriate edit note, edit conflict and an indication that this is a banned user. FWIW Bzuk 06:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC).
Also, this example of blatant vandalism ensued after this admonishment by me to do right in his edit warring. The user appears to be continuing a pattern of bad behavior from his time on Wikia until he was bannished. - BillCJ 07:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
For the record, he's had one short block (which I now understand from Angela should have been longer), and he's now received multiple warnings, so any further disruption, in my opinion, is grounds for a much longer block. When he transgresses again, I'll be happy to take care of it, unless another admin happens to get to it first. A note here would probably be best to keep everyone coordinated. AKRadeckiSpeaketh 14:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That block will never happen and I will stop you. I only edit for peace and you guys kept doing edit wars all the time besides Blocks are for people that tries murder. You will leave this peace loving user alone because I don't like people talking about me or having negative concerns about me.(TougHHead 01:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

Some peace [16] [17]. And besides, blocks are not for those who "murder". That is their own business. See WP:BLOCK. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Also that This Wikipedia is mostly an American Website because most users are turned out to be Americans like me and finally there is also Freedom of speech.(TougHHead 01:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

You have freedom of speech, but your speech is often uncivil and disruptive. [18] [19] [20] User talk:Angela#Please I am trying to tell you something, [21], not to mention you continue your crusade on F-15 Eagle and F-22 Raptor despite repeated warnings. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The banishment will never happen and I will stop you no matter the cost. I won't be treated like Banished Dark Templars that had been banished for eons.(TougHHead 06:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

I am sorry, TougHHead, but if you want to stop me, please start abiding by our rules, particularly WP:CIVIL. Like this recent edit. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 22:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

TougHHead: The First Amendment gives you the right to say whatever you believe to be true. It also gives the Wikimedia Foundation the right to not give you a forum to say it in. Just because you can say it doesn't mean that people have to listen--or that they have to help you say it. Rdfox 76 00:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It never ends[edit]

Why is this[22] allowed? "In 1975, the Treaty of Alvor integrated Cabinda into Angola, but this treaty was rejected by all Cabindan political organizations. These organizations argue that because they had no input on the document, it was, and is, illegal, and therefore does not bind them to Angola. However, according to Perspicacite, Portugal annexed Cabinda from Belgian Congo in 1927" If Alice.S isnt blocked after an edit like that then something is seriously wrong with Wikipedia. Jose João 08:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Is anyone going to seriously dispute that that's vandalism? Not to mention she has followed me onto every other page I edit. Jose João 08:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Apparently she realized her error and fixed it,[23] making sure it linked to my userpage. No doubt, using the logic of most administrators, I should now be blocked for complaining about vandalism. This is of course the logical action to take. Jose João 08:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The other editor was way out of line, but your lack of faith in others is kind of disappointing. east.718 at 08:40, 11/14/2007
This editor has followed me to at least six other articles, restored vandalism to "Rhodesia" four times in one day violating WP:3RR, has kept a mirror copy of my archive despite administrators telling her otherwise,[24] and continues to spam the talkpages of articles I edit with a copy and paste of Wikipedia policies. My faith in this system dried up a long time ago. Jose João 08:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This page is also troubling; I also see that Guy talked to her about it before. east.718 at 09:04, 11/14/2007

...and, yet again, this results in no block. surprise surprise. Jose João 09:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you considered that I might be waiting for wider review? Your bad vibes and pushiness isn't really helping you here. east.718 at 09:21, 11/14/2007
The last comment is not directed at you. It's directed at the administrators who took no action the last time this happened. Jose João 09:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Problem is, when you say "vandalism," most Wikipedians used to dealing with such issues will go looking for giant penis images, or lots and lots of swearing and caps, not specific historic information -- if somebody is completely unfamiliar with the issues in question, they're going to have a hard time telling right off the bat whether a particular set of claims is ridiculous or not. History of South America is hardly my strong point. Is this user being abusive in ways which would be blatantly obvious, without the need for area-specific knowledge? Ignoring messages, bypassing strong consensus, being combative, and so on. Mainly asking because if so, you should point it out right quick. If they're not, then I'd suggest you find somebody who is familiar with South American history, or try to go through the motions of dispute resolution (requesting sources and debate, and such) just to see how reasonable or unreasonable this person may be -- if they're a troll, they're likely to show their true colors around that point. – Luna Santin (talk) 09:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why it is so hard to see the abuse here. If user A inserts into the body of any article a derisive remark that "According to user B ..." that is obvious harrassment of user B by user A. Alice.S inserted "According to Perspicacite ..." into the article — not the talk page, the article itself. That is way over the line of acceptable behavior. Why on Earth do we need a subject matter expert to understand that point? --MediaMangler 09:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
...d'oh, I've been foiled by User:Perspicacite's piped signature. I had the impression that was some third party, another site or such. Taking a second look, but I see east already left a message about it. – Luna Santin (talk) 09:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a good thing there was an edit conflict just now. I considered posting some "historical information" regarding certain editors in this conversation. Divine intervention from the wikiprophets no doubt. Jose João 09:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Luna Santin's response to a personal attack added to an article was this: [25] Wow. Jose João 09:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, actually, it was. I don't block people willy nilly just because you ask nicely. I'm asking her for an explanation because I value hearing both sides of a story before taking action. Now, as East said, your attitude is not helping anything. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Luna for handling this case. :) -- lucasbfr talk 10:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are two sides to a personal attack in an article? Uh, no Luna, there arent. You are right on your second point though, you dont block users based on my asking nicely. You block them based on violations of WP:NPA and WP:VAND. Jose João 10:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It think it's time to take a break here, Perspicacite. Alice was blocked for 24h for other reasons, so you can relax and stand down from needing to guard things. You're a little angry, and I can see why, but you're biting at an administrator who came to this cold and was trying to figure out what was going on. I know you're frustrated, but Luna was taking the time to make sure that any actions she took were just and completely defensible. You would want her to do the same if Alice had come here first complaining about you with a series of differences selected to make you look bad. Assume Good Faith means that, whenever an admin enters the fray, they do indeed need to assume good faith from EVERYONE....which means that while things might clarify rapidly, at the very very start, yes, we do indeed assume that there are two valid sides to the story. --Thespian 10:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked AliceS. for 24 hours. See this note for detail. El_C 10:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I will put in a word for User:Alice.S - Perspicacite/Jose João has a confrontational style, particularly with edit summaries. Alice.S could find no supporting references for Perspicacite's assertions, and, rather than deleting his contributions, attributed them to him. Indeed, not the wisest move, but she provided many references supporting her position. Wizzy 17:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, Alice S. has replied here on her block. SGGH speak! 19:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
While she was undoubtedly right on the content issue, she was wrong to attribute the mistaken edit to an editor in the mainspace, and she is wrong to continue to argue it out as though she has done nothing wrong. I endorse the 24 hour block and have declined her unblock request. She and Perspicacite may need further help to either edit collegially or avoid each other entirely; this is not the first spat between them. --John 19:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A question for you guys: how is Perspicacite able to intentionally insert unreferenced material over and over with no repercussions. Yet he reports (using a piped sig for disguise, apparently) a relatively new (5 weeks) editor for placing the admittedly point-y "according to perspicacite" into an article he had forced this unsourced material on, and she's 24hr-Blocked? It seems a bit bite-y to me, and very lenient on a persistenly over-aggressive editor. Just my $0.02 ... K. Scott Bailey 01:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Point of information... The information focused here was sourced and referenced, but disputed. I have reviewed the source (on google books) and a graphic in the source (pp 8) [26] claims what Perspicacite says it does. I have no grounds to find the source either accurate or inaccurate; our default assumption is that anything which is properly cited and verifyable is includable. It may be wrong, but it's verifyably in the book / pamphlet / whatever. If anyone wants to come up with a better source to discredit it, that's fine, of course. Georgewilliamherbert 01:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
My point about the bite-yness of the block remains. (For the record, I looked at that source on GoogleBooks, and never noticed it, but that's beside the point.) What disruption is this block supposed to "prevent", since blocks are not to be punitive? She changed the "according to Perspicacite" thing on her own, so how is this block justified as "preventative"? I really respect El_C a lot, but I think this block was a mistake, both because it bit the (relative) newby, and because it doesn't appear to have much preventative value. K. Scott Bailey 02:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I talked past you. I believe that you have a point; I'm still considering the situation along those lines. Whatever damage was done is done; I want to make sure that anything I do that follows works to clarify and help and doesn't end up making anything worse. Georgewilliamherbert 03:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


So, are you saying that you see the point about the apparent lack of a preventative value for the block? Based upon what I've seen here, the block was improperly placed, as there was no real ongoing concern it addressed and prevented. Alice had reverted her own bad act. K. Scott Bailey 04:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I declined the unblock because I had previously warned them both to avoid each other, and here she was, making the situation worse a few days later. I still see no evidence, through her (two) unblock requests and the other things she has written on her talk page, that she has learned from this. She seems to have it in for one particular user, who also has civility issues. If I saw evidence she has learned to stay away from Perspicacite, I would support an unblock. I see no such evidence. Read her talk page. This block is, on the available evidence, preventive, because from everything we have seen she is prepared to repeat the behaviour. I would love to be proved wrong. --John 05:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The content she added is not inaccurate... per se. She does not know about the history of Angola - this is not an uncivil statement, it is a fact demonstrated by her very edits to the Angolan Civil War article. Portugal did have Cabinda as a protectorate. They later lost it. The Belgians got control and the Portuguese did not regain it until 1927. One point seems to have been ignored in all this discussion. The only reason she edited the article was to pick a fight with me. It's not a coincidence. I'm trying to get it to featured status - she did not come across it coincidentally. I'm disappointed the block seems to have been more about the attack page she created weeks ago and not about the edit she made the other day. The attack page did nothing more than hurt my ego. Her edits to ACW lowered the quality of Wikipedia's articles. A block for a WP:STALK violation would have made more sense, but whatever. I'm not picky. I just want her to stop following me. Jose João 06:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyvios on the featured article?[edit]

I've no idea where the proper place to raise this is - so please move the thread if this isn't good.

Today's FA, Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes (which is excellent btw) contains a number of composite "before and after" images Image:Sistine Chapel Daniel beforandafter.jpg Image:Sistine Chapel TwoSpandrels.jpg Image:Jesse spandrel beforeandafter.jpg Image:Daniel project 03.jpg - the uploader claims these are PD. Now, there's no doubt that Michaelangelo's' work is PD - and a simple photograph of it is probably too. But, in each of these cases someone has taken a picture before the restoration, and then taken an identical picture after it, and then spiced these into the same image. This is a lot more than a simple collage. That would seem like a creative act - and thus copyright. Maybe it is borderline, but borderline copyvios should not be in a Featured article currently linked from the main page. Should they? If I'm wrong here, I apologise - but I thought the issue worth raising.--Docg 13:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. It's not clear who took the 'after' images and who spliced them together. If the uploader did both, or even just the 'splicing', then there is no problem. But is putting 2 images next to each other without modification an act of creativity? I think your concern rests on the 'after' images, so determining that is the important point. Splash - tk 13:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It isn't just the splicing. Someone took a picture in the Sistine chapel (not hard) - then thought to return months later to the exact same spot and take the same picture - and then (probably he) spliced them together. If I take a series of pictures of my house at different times of the year, and then put them together for comparison - isn't that copyright?--Docg 13:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Your house is three dimensional, the art in this case is two dimensional. Reproduction of 2D art isn't re-copyrightable. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 13:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Individually, the pictures are without a doubt not eligible for copyright as faithful reproductions of an artwork. Simply putting two together next to each other wouldn't to me meet the threshold of originality. henriktalk 13:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think Doc has a point but I do not think it is obvious enough to go after the pictures at the present time. In the US, Bridgeman v. Corel applies to the original photos, and I don't think the act of composing them in a before/after arrangement is sufficiently creative to create a separate copyright (as opposed to say, this). It's worth seeking additional guidance on, maybe, but not immediate action. Thatcher131 14:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The other point on the photos is that they appear to me to be before and after photos set up by the restorers as a part of the restoration project, and therefore might fall under their copywrite as part of the restoration report/documentation. --Rocksanddirt 00:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If that is the case, these pictures have probably been published somewhere, for instance in a brochure. The Sistine Chapel is administered by the Musei Vaticani, they might know if such a publication exists. AecisBrievenbus 00:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
There are more than one published books on the restoration, but Bridgeman v. Corel should apply. I also don't see that a simple juxtaposition is creative or original. Whoever made the juxtaposition was clearly aiming at objective & factual reporting, with as little creativity as possible. Johnbod 03:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

AIV backlogged[edit]

Resolved: AIV clear

Hi guys. Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism appears backlogged. • Lawrence Cohen 19:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Again?? Wow - things are busy this morning - Alison 19:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
School time in America, mostly. Clear now. ELIMINATORJR 19:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Makes me wonder what they're learning if they're still this stupid... HalfShadow 19:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
They're learning how to vandalize Wikipedia, obviously. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 20:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC) (talk · contribs)[edit]

This user deserves a lengthier block than the one he just got handed for 1 week. He has a history of compulsive vandalism over the last year with more than 150 edits. This is his 7th block but he continues vandalising immediately after block expiry. SWik78 20:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This should really be discussed with the blocking admin, User:Delldot, before being reported here. Thanks, Satori Son 20:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Wormwood66[edit]


Persistent disruptive editing at Winston Churchill - see - Special:Contributions/Wormwood66. The user has not responded to request to stop, and following a 24 hour block imposed for this behaviour has once again repeated his disruptive behaviour. Jooler 23:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

As incrimental blocks simply aren't working, he is now indef block as a persistent edit warrior. IrishGuy talk 00:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

More Jo Wiley defamation[edit]

Resolved: Protected at RPP by me. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 05:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There's been a whole load more defamation today [27]. I think I previously reported the last outbreak a few days ago, but can't find it on the archive. Please can you consider some form of protection. Thanks -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 23:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, you can request page protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. — Save_Us_229 23:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I missed that, and I looked at the table at the top of the page <g> ! Too tired.... -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 00:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Cody is back again[edit]

This guy is persistent, I'll give him that. Banned user has returned yet again.
Codyfinke99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log).

other aliases (all blocked as sock puppets)

Jeremy (Jerem43 02:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC))

I caught Zombieds and Codyfinke1992 yesterday. IrishGuy talk 02:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Another Dereks1x sock looking for a block[edit]

Resolved: Mrs. Bell just got rung. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 04:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Can an admin take a look at this checkuser request where Dmcdevit just returned a likely for a check on Jessica Bell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for being the 57th sock of Dereks1x (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and give Jessica Bell an indefinite block? Evidence of being a sockpuppet is on the checkuser request. Thanks! --Bobblehead (rants) 03:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Indef blocked and tagged. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 04:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A newbie casualty of this war[edit]

A casualty of the user:Ryoung122 wars (which now includes an attack [28] on the notability of Stephen Coles by the same editors), has been the indefinite blocking of user:StanPrimmer as a sockpuppet, when actually he is at most a meatpuppet. For those of you who've not lately reviewed the difference, see WP:MEAT. Specifically: "As opposed to sock puppets, meatpuppets are actual newbies, and it is important to not bite the newbies." The obvious reason being that newbies do not know what meatpuppets are, either (far less than administrators seem to).

Now, Stanley R. Primmer is a newbie and real person (for photo of him and talk he gave while founding the Supercentinarian Research Foundation, see [29]), and this inconvenient fact was pointed out by to editor user:BrownHairedGirl, who had specifically acccused [30] Primmer of being a sockpuppet for Robert Young. Apparently on no other basis but supporting comments Primmer gave in defence of Young and Coles [31] [32]. Apparently, if you disagree with an administrator and have a new account, that makes you a sockpuppet until proven otherwise, and perhaps without anybody bothering to look one way or the other (as in this case). In any case, user:BrownHairedGirl went to administrator user:Maxim's webpage and asked for a range of Young IP sockpuppet blocks, and included Primmer as a meatpuppet [33]. Whereupon Maxim blocked Primmer as a sock, indefinitely, giving sockpuppetry as the reason [34] [35] without adequate checking of ISP locations. Wups. The two men (Young and Primmer) are on opposite sides of the country, as their ISP's show. A mistake, and not a good one for an admin (who is supposed to be careful about permanent blocks of nameusers) but perhaps honest.

From here on, however, is where things go beyond honest mistake.

Editor NealRC and I pointed out that Primmer was not a sock, but a newbie. At this point BrownHairedGirl thanked us, simply characterized him as indeed a meatpuppet, and went so far as to reference WP:SOCK [36]. Apparently not reading WP:MEAT. When I pointed out the obvious difference [37], I got no response from BrownHairedGirl.

My next action was to notify administrator user:Maxim on his TALK page that Primmer was not a sock, but rather, as a newbie, had been blocked by mistake at somebody else's request, and that this was pretty ironic action for people who were afraid of "meatpuppets" (people recruited into an argument!) At least meatpuppets only give unwanted opinions and don't do administrative damage! [38]. Maxim's response was simply to erase my comment from his talkpage [39], not reply, AND do nothing about Primmer. After the initial block for being a sockpuppet, Primmer had previously been both unblocked and then RE-blocked indefinitely by Maxim, both without stated editorial reason [40]. So it's not as though Maxim didn't think about it. This newbie remains blocked, due to his opinions (which he gave, by the way, in a case involving public notability of a wiki-BIO figure, so it's not as though outside opinion wasn't appropriate).

In summary, both editors know what they are doing, and they know it is against policy, having been notified. Neither deign to answer ME. But they did it anyway, because they wanted to, and it got rid of a "disruptive" opinion in two debates (one on Young, the other on Coles) which didn't agree with theirs. I suppose they figure they can let it stand so long as nobody brings it to ANI

Now, I've been editing Wikipedia for a while (in fact, a lot longer than either Maxim or BrownHairedGirl !), and I've seen how administrative abuse works. If you leave more than one message on a TALK page you open yourself up to charges of harrassment, and if you're too good at argument someplace else, you find that you're accused of being that nebulous thing which nobody wants to be: "disruptive." The last being a little difficult to use against me, with my rather wide range of constructive and still existant edits, but I know when it's time to leave the matter in the hands of people who can't get stomped on for their views. I've personally done all I can. You have two badly-performing administrators. So, your dead fish. SBHarris 04:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sbharris has omitted the crucial point here: that Ryoung122 has already used several socks, and is using his Worlds Oldest People yahoogroup to campaign for as many meatpuppets as possible to come and swamp AfDs. I will paste one example below (there are several others)
Also, Harris has alleged that other editors (apparently including me) have been "recruiting associates and friends to echo you from among people who are already here". I have asked for the diffs, without success, and if Harris is acting in good faith, I hope that they will now be produced. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing "crucial" about the point. Meatpuppetry is not a blockable offense. What part of this don't you understand? Second, I'm making an assumption that you're communicating with the group of editors you have going around with you examining geriatrics-related subjects and authors. But it could be mental telepathy, or it could be like a school of fish. I admit it. The difference, however, between this and other kinds of recruiting, is that you're doing it as administrators, and doing joint administrative power-tricks with it, like labeling articles as non-notable and unreferenced, and blocking newbies from fixing their references so they are. That makes it an entirely different thing. Basically, you're using software, not persuasion, to enforce your point of view. SBHarris 04:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Harris, you really seem to have great difficulty with assuming good faith. I have told you umpteen times that I have not been canvassing or recruiting people, and even though you have no evidence you have assumed maliciously that there must be unseen canvassing: wrong. Wrong, because it's not happening and because it won't happen, because I despise that way of work (WP:CANVASS is particularly stern about "stealth canvassing").
So far as I can see, what has happened is simply that my talk page is on the watchlists of a lot of editors, and some of those watching it an/or my contribs list decide to join in the discussions which are referred to there. I have no control over who these people are, or what views they take, and have often found that people who I know to be watching my talkpage join in to disagree with me, which they are quite properly entitled to do. Any communication is taking place on wikipedia talk pages, apart from the emails from those editors who decided (without being approached from me) to forward copies of Young's campaigning emails. Watch my talk page and my contribs list, and you will miss nothing.
The semi-protections were applied to articles simply because Young's confirmed sockpuppets were busy editing them. But all these are details; I'm curious that you are full of fury at anyone who does anything to restrain people who abuse wikipedia to promote themselves of their friends and colleagues. That's an interesting arrangement of priorities. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

 I am reminded of the saying by Martin Niemoller:

 First They Came for the Jews
 First they came for the Jews
 and I did not speak out
 because I was not a Jew.
 Then they came for the Communists
 and I did not speak out
 because I was not a Communist.
 Then they came for the trade unionists
 and I did not speak out
 because I was not a trade unionist.
 Then they came for me
 and there was no one left
 to speak out for me.

 Pastor Martin Niemöller

 So, group members: do we really care, or not? If someone 115 years
 old is not immune to this, then who is? Again, one man is no army. I
 cannot be the only one standing up for these articles. If you think
 that supercentenarians are notable, then you all (800+ members) had
 better make your voices heard, lest it be too late.

  • I find it ironic that you assume bad faith in alleging the assumption of bad faith. Are you helping User:StanPrimmer to help us to rectify this mistake? I don't see any actual evidence of that. I have left a message on his Talk page to try and straighten things out. Looks like he's being a bit more sanguine about this than you are. Guy (Help!) 12:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Say what? Are you addressing me?? Your questions have been more than answered by now on Primmer's talk page, but for the record, he and I have not communicated. Part of the reason for which is that it is frowned upon for a blocked editor to make their case here on AN/I by proxy, so I was keeping it pure. Are you asking me why I haven't done that? Help Stan to help YOU rectify this mistake? Why in the wrold would I, or should I, need to do that? I showed it was a mistake; there was no question it was a mistake; and you didn't need Stan's input to figure out that it was a mistake! Do you mean to imply that unfairly-blocked newbies should be helping to fix their own problems on Wikipedia?

Guess what-- that's not going to work. The specialty at Wikipedia for stiffling dissent, is to stiffle the dissenters. And it usually works.

Robert Young, above, is a pretty good example: not a newbie-- enough experience to put up a good fight. In fact, too good-- good enough that they had to tape his mouth. Not a vandal, not an edit-warrior (until somebody tried to wipe out his presense), but good at lengthy self-defense. So, he obviously must be banned indefinitely, just like somebody trying to destroy Wikipedia. Why, how dare he, after being blocked, use other ISP addresses and sign his name (wups), in order to be heard? Isn't that pretending to be somebody else-- see sockpuppetry? Well, no. It's evading authority, certainly; always a crime.

Robert Young's apparently wasting administrative time with his long diatribes, when the administrator is fixated on really *important* editorial subjects, like 2007 Siberian orange snow and the Stanley Cup. While gerontologists and their ilk and their fans --humor :)-- are interested in yucky stuff like why you are getting older, and are closing in on the Grim Reaper. Don't think about it! Administrator user:BrownHairedGirl, for example, as part of what appears to be a crucade against the field, has recently called into question the notoriety of James Birren, one of the founders of geriatric psychiatry (see the page history), and added proscriptions for new editors from editing the Birren page, which still stand. Notwithstanding that she gives no evidence of knowing anything about the subject or the person, and apparently did not bother to read the references the article had, which were entirely sufficient (I recently added a lot more, for the benefit of the lazy, but the information was already there, for anybody).

And why the proscription against new editors? Now, consider: what about the practice of adding tags about problems in a Wiki, along with blocks against new editors doing anything to fix the tagged problem? Does that not amount to prosecution of a biased agenda by an administrator who uses administrative powers to block any avenue of academic disagreement? BrownHairedGirl seems to be doing this in connection with any article she can find, on gerontology or gerontologists. Alas, her problem now is that there's a gerontologist who was here before her-- namely me.

I suppose from what she posts, the badness is that that many newbies will come into wikipedia from a gerontology mailing list (there are roiling hoards of us-- we outnumber scientologists or even Mormons ;)), and begin editing. Goodness, the Idea that Anybody Could (Potentially) Edit! And (even worse) start Editing For a Specific Reason! Out of interest! See BrownHairedGirl's hair-raising post about this, above. Use of electronic mailing lists in an attempt to undermine Wikipedia, by influencing its content. Great Merciful God, then what? Next time, it might be the English Dept faculty, discussing some screwup or stupid bias in Wikipedia during a luncheon, and joining up as editors, in order to take care of the problem. And then…? Well, then, instead of fighting and ignoring Wikipedia, perhaps the academics will join it en mass. Then, control it. Which may be the real fear, who knows?

Meanwhile, the stink about "notoriety" goes on, with biased admins blocking any discussion originating from people who join Wikipedia in order to have a voice in a specific matter!

And, you know, Wiki admins function as cops, but unfortunately nobody guards the guards. They're cops without an Internal Affairs Department; one where only volunteer cops look into allegations of bad policing-- if they feel like it. Which has just the result you might imagine (yup, enjoy the TASER). If it weren't for the sunlight which shines on the process every so often in AN/I (sunlight is a good disinfectant), it would stink even worse. SBHarris 04:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Sbharris, if you want to rip up WP:COI, WP:SOCK, WP:CANVASS, WP:TPG, and all the other guidelines which Robert Young repeatedly ignored despite countless warnings, then you are entitled to your view. But rather than heatedly posting here about the wickedness of those who have upheld these guidelines, why not see if you find a consensus to delete them? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think what Sbharris is looking for is WP:RFC. The users section. Carcharoth 02:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
    • An update to this. User:StanPrimmer has now been unblocked by Maxim. I am concerned that Maxim failed to leave a note in the log when performing the unblock, and I've said so on Maxim's talk page. I also fail to see any sign that Maxim has bothered to talk to User:StanPrimmer at all. User:BrownHairedGirl has apologised (she initially alerted Maxim here), but I'd like to clear a few things up here: (1) administrators must use the logs to give reasons for blocks and unblocks; (2) even if someone else alerts an administrator to a potential problem, that administrator must take responsibility for their own actions, and not leave others to apologise instead if it later turns out that apologies are needed. Carcharoth 03:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right place to add, but while we're on the topic of R. Young's sockpuppets, user:Cjeales has also been accused of being Robert Young (user:RYoung122). Claiming Stan Primmer of Florida is Robert Young of Georgia (both from U.S.A.) is more understandable in the sense the 2 areas (states) are geographically bordered, but user Cjeales is from United Kingdom, and I don't suspect Robert Young flew a plane to impersonate. Neal 21:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC).

Doesn't this remind you a bit of Arthur Miller's The Crucible? Each person in turn who shows up in defense, is accused of being a witch themselves. Lordy. SBHarris 23:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully the people involved in this case will in the future (a) be less prone to making accusations of sockpuppetry; (b) learn the difference between sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry; and (c) learn that sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry need to be handled in different ways. Carcharoth 02:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The distinction between a sockpuppet and a meatpuppet is something which may only become clear after investigation, and it seems that these cases are now being sorted out. However, Carcharoth should remember that there was a clear history of sockpuppetry by Ryoung122, and that he was known to be canvassing for meatpuppets to join. Indeed, I have certainly learnt that some care needs to be taken in differentiating the two, but it remains disappointing that some editors display apparently limitless concern for the feelings of editors who ignore COI and canvass repeatedly and for those who consequently join up with a clear agenda of tipping the balance in discussions, but are very quick to point the finger at the actions of admins who try to deal with the mess created by people who use wikipedia as a vehicle for self-promotion. This is a strange set of priorities, and it's an issue which most real-life organisations deal with rather firmly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I was the one who blocked Cjeales (talk · contribs) per the duck test. Having received an e-mail where he (more or less) admits to being a meatpuppet, but not a sockpuppet, I'm inclined to trust it, and will unblock (heh, we were specially asked not to WP:BITE recently). That being said, Houston, we have at least one problem at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marie-Rose Mueller, which should either be speedily closed as "moot" for canvassing, or carefully analysed by the closer. The Young's off-wiki canvassing is real ugly, and I'm really stunned by how the AfD looks like. Duja 07:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • While I am grateful that Duja unblocked me promptly, and I was more than glad to take on board his comments to me regarding the situation leading to the block and so on, I refute the above assertion that I admitted being a "meatpuppet". I looked at the Wikipedia definition of this term and it is defined as "a user solely for the purposes of influencing the community on a given issue or issues acting essentially as a puppet of the first user without having independent views and actual or potential contributions". In no way does this decribe me or my actions, nor did I indicate that to Duja in my email to him. I have contributed to only two AFD discussions. The first was about the article on Robert Young, and centred around notability. I commented that I would like to see the article kept, as I felt he is notable in an emerging field, and indicated I was dissapointed to see the tone of the AFD as it seemed to be getting personal (in hindsight I wish I'd kept my thoughts to myself on that occasion, but hey, live and learn!). The second was an AFD on a supercentenarian, and again centered around notability. I commented that I would like to see it kept as I felt that supercentenarians are notable as they are so rare. If my arguments were weak, or not relevant to wikipedia policy and guidelines, then so be it. But that does not mean I was echoing someone else's opinions, nor doing them a favour by expressing them. That was an assumption on Duja's part (albeit an understandable one I suppose, looking at the big picture). Sorry to have written such a long comment this time, but I find it insulting and belittling to have someone imply that have no "independent views and actual or potential contributions" as this is patently not true. Nor did I enjoy Duja's comments that I admitted to being such a thing. I did not, and there was no need for me to do so. This has been one hell of a tough ride this week, I hope my troubles are over. One thing is certain, I will be taking Duja's advice in future and being a lot more cautious. Cjeales 16:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


Please would somebody note the actions of User:Sarvagnya. Edits such as this are clearly disruptive and vandalising yet nothing was done about it and this which shows a clear aim by this user to remove existing content and damaging the encyclopedia - to destroy a whole license which has been previously been authorized and would affect hundreds of articles and then attempting to persuade the authoriser User:Riana at the commons to "nuke them all" on the grounds of his belief it isn't adequate. There is a clear purpose from his recent actions to attempt to erode existing articles related to Indian cinema and destroy the weeks of work and effort from other contributors brnading their work a "pile of garbage". If new editors did all this they would have been blocked. He has excessively tagged many main existing pages with often 4 or 5 different tags to portray the articles as terrible such as the Bollywood article. Addressing tone and ordering references is fine but this editor has gone so far that it is clear he isn't acting in good faith when many articles will be under threat. Is this what people want? He has been warned by an admin before Please avoid making personal attacks. because he personally attacked one editor. But it is time to do something about this. It is rude and it is disheartening to other editors, and is certainly not an environment I want to work in particularly when content is under attack and I am having to continously against my wishes having to become involved in it and try to protect existing content. I haven't got time to waste on people or this sort. I seriously fear that hundreds of articles or going to be degraded in this way and going unnoticed ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: How do you qualify this as disruptive? Shouldn't a user be allowed to express his opinion on Wikipedia? So what do you want to indicate? That people who are notifying copy-vios in Wikipedia are damaging it and should be blocked? Nice try.. And if you are complaining about personal attacks, may be you should see this, arse jockeys, eh? -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 17:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad try yourself there. Now, if someone could address the substantive issues of the user in question's repeated apparently unjustifiably tagging content for speedy deletion, repeatedly adding other tags without any explanation, and the other substantive complaints made here, the discussion might rise above the level of the comment above. John Carter 17:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't normally react , count it lucky I didn't react even worse and leave permanently - I was crying out at the same procession of editors following Savagnya in bringing things down and that an ameniable alternative wasn't made from discussion first ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 17:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Lucky, eh? Lets leave out the personal attack business from the discussion... -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 18:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Sarvagnya seems to have developed a bit of a history misusing the speedy deletion template, as per his talk page and elsewhere. Is there any way to formally recommend that such misuse cease. Regretably, he doesn't seem to misuse it often enough to qualify for a block, but he does seem as per his talk page to misuse the template with some regularity. John Carter 16:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Please notify the user of this thread. - Jehochman Talk 16:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
See the above thread Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Sarvagnya Woodym555 16:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)(threads merged) Woodym555 16:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This user has been warned many times about this the latest warning about speedying existing articles and images and general disrpution was removed as "nonsense". I don't know what it'll take for him to get the message. He has actually been warned more times than I had previously though see User_talk:Sarvagnya#speedy but continues to ignore warning at disruption. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 16:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I would ask anyone interested to review the contents of the editor's talk page. Placing all sorts of templates without any justification given, removing verifiable and appropriate content, making legal threats, etc. User seems to have a history of unilateral action without any explanation. John Carter 17:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
blah blah blah.. I made legal threats? Where? Point out or shut up. Sarvagnya 17:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Seeing the editor's talk page would only be like looking at the one side of the coin. If some one is reviewing, I request to review the complete conversation, which could have happened in multiple talk pages. Thanks - KNM Talk 17:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
If I am misstating the content of User talk:Sarvagnya#no legal threats explanation, my apologies. However, I cannot help but be amused that much of the content of your talk page, and the purpose of this discussion, is your own failure to abide by that principle, given your repeated failure to justify any of the seemingly irrational tagging you so often engage in. John Carter 17:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)Much of the content on my page has a history of which you know nothing about. Many a time the allegations are as ill informed and ludicruous as your own here and so I dont even bother replying to those.. that doesnt make those allegations true! So stop shooting your mouth off and making a fool of yourself. If you find the contents on my page amusing, good for you but keep it to yourself. Dont waste people's time on ANI by misrepresenting conversations and slandering others. And next time, do your homework before you come on ANI.

And oh, Blofeld that applies to you too. Before you crib that I reverted or attacked someone, make sure that the user was not a banned troll. Also if you're going to complain that I tagged 'brilliant prose' as nonsense, be ready with a diff to back it up. You're surely not faulting me for removing that gem of a "Bollywood is entering into the consciousness of western audiences" etc., on Bollywood, are you?

Can anybody here say honestly and with a straight face that articles havent improved after I've paid them a visit? Can you say that Zinta didnt improve after the FAC? Can you say that Bollywood hasnt improved in the last 12 hours? The amount of bad faith and witchhunt against me is appalling. This is probably the second such thread in a week. For what? Because I opposed your article on FAC on the grounds that it lacked RS sources?! Sorry, I'd rather clean up non-RS and copyvio cruft on wikipedia than make friends.

If you have a problem with me cleaning up cruft, too bad. You can cry hoarse on ANI.. but its not going to change the way I go about cleaning cruft. And dont make it sound like I've tricked Riana or Yamla or Guy or anybody else into buying my POV over those images. They're sensible and intelligent people too and your insinuations against me are really an insult to them. Blofeld, if you werent wikipedia's 'most productive editor', I wouldnt be dignifying this screed of yours with a response. You should work on assuming good faith and examining the edit and not the editor next time. Nichalp, a bureaucrat, also supported my stance on that FAC. Have you considered opening a thread like this on ANI against him too? Anyway, I'm out of here.. dont expect me to keep replying here. Sarvagnya 17:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah Nichalp I'm wondering when he'll turn up. If you concentrate on adding content and really improving articles I support you 100%. Its when articles are made to look pathetic and hard work attacked and branded as a "pile of rubbish" that I find offensive. Each time I log into wikipedia I find you have gone further and are attmepting to ruin something else or putting articles up for speedy, when I really want to continue with something else. If you got on with adding the content and improving articles like you claim to do which I beleive you are capable in a half ameniable fashion I wouldn't give you a second glance. I don;t know how you expect to systematically pursue your course of actions and not expect anybody to be evne slightly concerned ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 18:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Boy.. should I be concerned that people get worked up for no reason? I simply cannot help it. If people are going to keep taking ill informed stances about me, I cannot help it. And I didnt make the articles look pathetic. They were pathetic. I merely tagged it and brought it to people's attention! Nothing gives me more joy on wikipedia than writing articles. But I wouldnt be able to sleep at night if I wrote nonsense like Bollywood. Writing articles takes time and diligence. at the moment (as you can see from my talk page), I am too busy in RL to write articles. I've been working in snatches last few weeks and I only have time to do drive by cleaning.. and that is waht I am doing. Also when I create articles, I usually create them on notepad and hoist them up in one shot like I've done

here, [41], here, here, here, here, here and several other places. For that matter, even at this moment, there's a half done article sitting in my sandbox. Those edits obviously get buried in my contrib history and all that someone assuming bad faith can pick out is edits like the one you've chosen to misrepresent here. I usually hate making a case for myself even when I run the risk of being misunderstood, because I see it as vanity. This isnt the first time I've been dragged to ANI nor will it be the last. Only this time, it isnt the usual rank troll who would drag me here. It is you, Blofeld and that is why I'm even bothering to reply.

And what do you mean by irrational tagging? I tagged and got dozens of images deleted by dozens of admins and I've been doing it for months now. So you're accusing all of them of acting in bad faith? Same with articles. For your information, there used to be a List of Tamil film clans or some such which I tagged as unencyclopedic. Another editor, a Tamil himself and one who considers me his sworn enemy supported me, took it further and tagged it for speedy. And it got speedied. So that is what I had in mind when I put Bolly clans up for speedy. Its appalling how people can think that such a list is even encyclopedic! And stop making up stories like the edit war on Shahrukh had anything to do with my edits on Zinta FAC. I've explained this before and let me explain again. If I remember correctly, from SRK I went to AB where again I saw the same non-RS sources. From there I clicked on several Bollywood articles and all of them turned out the same. So I went to WP:INB to leave a message where I saw your message about Zinta FAC. It was from there that I landed on the Zinta FAC. You led me there! Sarvagnya 18:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Look that Bollywood article did have some misleading statements -thankyou for identifying them. Statements such as "Bollywood is generally making a breakthrough in the west" or whatever it was is a dreadful generalization to make in an encyclopedia article - its not about that -we both know there is some bad text in a number of articles. Many of the Bollywood articles need serious work to address comments and bad references and if this improves and eventually builds content this would be ideal. However, it is the way that you conduct yourself and your course of action that I am concerned with with little regard to the concerns and protests of others time and time again and it is clear you look on many editors and their work with disgust and in a condesending manner.. Now I have done no real editing on Bollywood articles at all, in fact my only editing there has been with adding film posters or templates and cast sections on existing film articles rather than actors. However terrible you think articles are, you just don't make decisions to nuke articles with no consensus with other editors and however terrible you think an article is ,you most certinaly should not discourage anybody who attempts to add constructive content to this encyclopedia. You keep claiming good faith, but how can your continous disregard for the genuine efforts of hard work , whether it is in article content (or with images which I helped with) be acceptable. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 19:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - He has been warned by an admin before Please avoid making personal attacks. - No, that user who warned is not an admin. Also, the user on whom Sarvagnya is alleged to have made a personal attack appears to be an obvious sockpuppet, and his edit in the same page was reverted back by admin. - KNM Talk 17:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Either way, within minutes of the edit war and vandalism here on the Shahrukh Khan article, when his edits were reverted within minutes he influenced the Preity Zinta FA nomination by declaring "strongest possible oppose" as a response. This is when this user came to me attention as I was rather surprised at how it seemed to be overly degrading. Follwoing each of these events his close friends such as KLF turn up to offer their support. Nobody seems to be notice the misconduct here -this is what worries me. Would somebody please see the edits here and how entire paragraphs of article being removed and branded as nonsense ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 17:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Influence?? What do you mean by influence? The article did not pass the GA review, because the lead editors could not address the review comments. Why do you want to make Sarvagnya as the scape goat, when the lead editors inability to move the article to a GA was the reason for the failure? Didn't you see the page history of Preity Zinta after the GA review, where a lot of cleanup is in progress? Please be more objective than trying to put in your opinions... -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 17:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
It is possible for such a profound statement as "strongest possible oppose" to sway votes, even if that "swaying" is accurate. It is also legitimate to point out that the party seems to have certain "tag-alongs" or "defenders" who appear shortly after the initiatior himself. And I don't find a User:KLM. Was Blofeld perhaps referring to User:KNM, who has posted here already? John Carter 17:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Carter, may I point you to the history page of the Preity Zinta article to show you the clean up happening after the FA review. This is ample evidence that the article did not deserve to be an FA. What do we want next? Half baked articles being promoted to FA? Please... "Tag-alongs" and "defenders"? Would User:Shshshsh and Mr. Blofeld be an example of what you call as "Tag-alongs" and "defenders", since they seem to edit together? -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 18:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I used the example because it seemed highly suspicious and quite a coincidence that is occurred within minutes of that conflict. That article had some issues which have nothing to do with this editor. Now please don't try to justify all of his latest actions as good faith, it is clear he has gone beyond this. I am amazed how the same group KNM and Amargg turn uo in the same succession everytime to run to his aid ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 17:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly Blofeld. Exactly! ShahidTalk2me 17:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is quite serious, worse than i thought.This article was vandalised and emblazened with a "hoax" tag and he received a warning about this. This is a serious threat to our encyclopedia on major articles such as this. The question is are people happy to let him undertake such actions to our articles? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 17:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

All that tag summarily says is "The truthfulness of this article has been questioned.", which is perfectly fine for an article like in that state, where there is absolutely no references (not even single citation), and when a long-standing editor has concerns over its truthfulness. Looking from the positive perspective, that edit would only help bringing the article into a better shape by having references, inline citations and removing the original research. Once we start assuming bad faith on an editor, everything from him/her will be start appearing as -ve contributions to Wikipedia. Thats the whole purpose of, WP:AGF. - KNM Talk 17:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, such, potentially conscious, misstatements of fact are themselves troubling, particularly from an editor who so frequently seems to rush to defend the editor in question. I presume you didn't bother to read the second sentence of the template, "It is believed that some or all of its content might constitute a hoax." Such distortions of fact for the purpose of defending actions could themselves be seen as being potentially problematic. And perhaps the editor could explain on what basis clearly and specifically alleging something is a hoax without foundation can be counted as being acceptable. John Carter 18:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
What distortions and what potential problems are you talking about John? Do you see any references in that article? One single reference at least for it's sake? What is the notability of that err...committee? I believe Sarvagnya was well within his rights to tag the article as hoax. There is no distortion or misrepresentation here. Things are just fine. Gnanapiti 18:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yes. By any stretch of imagination, I cannot see that as a vandalism. Perhaps I must request you to see WP:Vandalism. Thanks - KNM Talk 18:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Look you know that my main concern is to improve article content and quality this is why I am here. Often sources and tone does need addressing yes but if you exmaine the course of actions over the last fortnight the actions and attitude of this person which is pretty obvious in this disccusion you'll see why I am concerned. Now it has become plainly obvious these edits are not done in good faith. How can anybody possibly justify the edits and behaviour identified as in good faith? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 18:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This whole complain thing is nothing but trolling. Not even one legitimate diff to back the complaints. All I see are incomplete complaints about personal attacks, hasty lies about legal threats and not so wise ways of looking at things. Tagging hoax for that completely unreferenced article was absolutely fine and well within wikipedia polices. And you wanted Preity Zinta to qualify as an FA? That would be a dishonor to all other well deserved FAs. I know what's coming next. Keep them coming, only if at all I need to reply. Gnanapiti 18:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
No, there is also the matter of the absolute refusal to address valid points on the part of those who are defending the subject of this thread by attacking those who have commented on his misconduct, and the clear evidence on his talk page of possible repeated abuse of the speedy delete template. It would be interesting to see if anyone will actually directly address that matter. As they seek direct evidence, I would point to the following threads from his talk page:
User talk pages represent only one side of the issue and I had expected an experienced editor like you to realize this already. More legitimate and trustful would be actual diffs of misconduct and any further discussions done on the issue, if you have any. Gnanapiti 19:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but about three of those are explicit statements from admins about misusing the template. I note that once again no direct responses regarding points made are forthcoming from the subject's apparent allies. And I think it can be understood that the sheer weight of allegations of misconduct regarding this party from both admins and regular editors can be seen as being at best reason to question the actions of the editor, particularly when they come in such rapid proximity to each other. John Carter 19:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah I wondered when Gnanapiti would turn up, Sarvagnya gave you an award didn't he. Has anybody noticed that so far all editors supporting him are from the same close group from India ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 18:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that I normally stay far away from such discussions as possible and have never reported an existing user before. However over the last weeks it has become plainly obvious the actions of this user are disruptive time and time again to the point I have become shocked-and he has a clear attitude problem in ignoring these warnings as nonsense which is very disappointing from a user who I feel has the ability to constructively edit this encyclopedia. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 19:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding non-RS. Previously, on the Shahrukh Khan page, Sarvagnya came from nowhere and started removing references and placing fact tags instead. A few days ago, I requested Sarvagnya to turn always to the article talk page and list his non-RSes there. Because it definitely can be subjectve, and every source can be proven as RS. This is a debatable case. That's why removing references without prior discussion is unacceptable.
Regarding tags. It is very hard to work when tags are being added. Yes, as Sarvagnya said, the Bollywood article has improved (I have cleaned up), but not because of these tags. It is also subjective, and again, if he has a reason to place these tags there, he must provide his reason on the article talk page with explanations. If you say, it reads like a magazine, so you probably have examples, so why not intrduce them on the discussion page? I've cleaned up the Bollywood article and it had a major tone down. Yet, I forgot to remove the tags. The only important thing is to discuss things before making drastic edits (and these were drastic), and then act further. Best regards, ShahidTalk2me 19:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This image again is a blatant copy vio and I'll be putting this image for deletion soon. If you guys have problems with this image getting deleted, please fix the license now. Gnanapiti 20:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That image has nothing to do with the Bollywood blog agreement. It is isn't from that site. I can get a replacement ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 20:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

comment I think Blofeld should take this discussion off ANI and workout the issues on each other talk pages.thanks Dineshkannambadi 20:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Now Dineshkannambadi is a clearly constructive editor who I have a lot of respect for. All I want is for articles and images to be secure and not under attack so I can continue editing in peace and not be concerned hundreds of articles are going to be chopped up ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 21:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

All this guy needs is some serious lessons on consensus to stop speedying or attempting to delete existing content without real justification and in doing so try to treat other editors with an ounce of respect ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? —Preceding comment was added at 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree on the consensus part. This user has a history of unilateral removals, massive rewrites, POV pushing, as well as calling disagreeing edits "BS". See Talk:Tolkāppiyam#Layers, Talk:Tolkāppiyam#Rajam, and Talk:Tolkāppiyam#Influence_of_Sanskrit for example. He has not responded to my query regarding his removal of cited info here despite a reminder. He has been warned several times by different admins and has been reported here on more than one occasion. His violations have been mostly borderline and his disruptive edits are interspersed with good edits making it difficult for stronger action. I seriously wish that he be more amenable to discussions and NPOV, and stops using rude edit summaries. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 04:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
As I have said elsewhere, user:Sarvagnya is the rudest editor I have had the depressing privilege of encountering on Wikipedia. I have reported him once on ANI (see here) and once on Wikiquette Alerts (see here). In each case, the attending admin/volunteer (user:Samir and user:Bfigura respectively) warned him on his talk page, but to little avail. However, what is more worrisome for me are his "cohorts." These editors: especially, user:KNM and user:Gnanapiti, but also a few others like User:Dineshkannambadi and Amar seem to turn up, all at once, on different pages, especially when on or the other is in an edit conflict. They have in the past been accused of colluding and at least two of them, user:Sarvagnya and user:Gnanapiti were once asked to not edit the same articles by the presiding administrator at RFCU. Perhaps, it is time for an admin to step up and issue user:Sarvagnya (and the others) more than just a mild warning. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Dineshkannambadi has over 10FA's to his name,calling him a cohort is nothing short of a dastardly personal attack. I instituted the original checkuser, but was told by dmcdevit (talk · contribs) that the two were not the same and have noted their contributions to Kannada history and Indian related items on wiki. Reporting someone on Wikiquette/ANI doesnt make you a concerned observer, it makes you a whiner looking for attention ready to waste time with bureaucracy.Bakaman 04:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Some fascinating links which the above user recently directed me to suggests that he thinks civility is overrated anyway, so perhaps his comments on personal attacks and Wikiquette should be taken in that light, and irrelevant to the conversation. Relata refero 06:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
PS. The cohort's continuing to add the official Indian honours and decoration template to a private literary award, the Jnanpith Award (see history here) is but the latest example of such collusion. It is the equivalent, as I say on that page's talk page (see here) of adding the Booker Prize or the Whitbread Award alongside the Victoria Cross (if one made such a template for Britain.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
False analogy. The jnanpith has no equivalent of similar effect in the US.Bakaman 04:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I see no analogy to the US. Relata refero 06:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think Fowler&Fowler is trying to pile on to someone else's ANI complaint, be opportunistic and push in his views too. If he has any issues, I suggest he take to a different forum. This is his new method to gain some mileage, after his straw polls lost popular appeal.Dineshkannambadi 16:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"Straw polls lost popular appeal." Really? user:KnowledgeHegemony, user:Blacksun, user:Ragib and are against mentioning the Kannada writers on the India (culture section). Who do you have on your side? That is, in addition to the cohort? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Theres a lot more to it Sarvagnya than me being miffed at wasting weeks of work and effort. It is not just a response at your clear "good intentions" to remove copywright or bad sources or POV. What deeply concerns me is your attitude and clear disrespect for other editors and wish to delete content including valid content or over tagging articles to suit your own needs and not listening to at least the 15-20 warnings you have had form many editors. Your attitude is diabolical -your edit summaries show this. It really has shocked me how such a spiteful tone can come across on the web. Everytime he responds its like being spoken by a hissing snake spitting poisonous venom at you ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 18:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Fowler&fowler completely with everything he's said, "seem to turn up, all at once, on different pages, especially when on or the other is in an edit conflict." - Exactly. they all seem to interact in some ways to enforce their opinions on others. Both these users (Sarvagnya & KNM) went to User:Spartaz to ask for my block initially, providing false claims and false diffs of "3RR" violation. First came Sarvagnya, and then, from nowhere, came KNM to support him. They appear always on different pages at the same time, when one of them is in troubles, or as said, in edit conflicts. A few days ago, KNM and I had some edit conflict on Preity Zinta's page (The reasons are clear, but it's irrelevant here), and suddenly, from nowhere came Sarvagnya, reverting my edits (just from nowhere!): [42], reverting my edits without even being aware of the issue. It has always been like this. Even the Preity Zinta GA reassessment. KNM nominated it for GA review, and within 30 minutes (even less), all of the above mentioned users voted to delist it. How can it be possible? It's impossible! And it's only a little example of many more. Oh and don't forget the quick and sudden appearance of these users here. Please do something. It's tiresome. ShahidTalk2me 18:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's stay on topic here. We've suddenly gone on a tangent discussing our problems with particular editors. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, part of the problem seems to be that these editors seem to have a consistent,predictable way of almost instantly jumping to each others defense. This could be seen as a possibly consistent attempt on the part of these editors to game the system. I would acknowledge that some editors do show an interest in defending others, but the apparent consistency and regularity of all these editors appearing whenever any of their numbers is challenged could potentially be a concern, as such conduct could be seen as being at least potentially very problematic. John Carter 18:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Like how? Like you jump to Blof's defence or blof jumps to shahid's defence? Or like how blof got "25 votes" piled on in double quick time on a FAC where the article didnt have one RS-source in sight? Or like when you guys got together to pile it on on an AfD and even close it within hours of opening it and not even bothering to leave the customary notices at India deletion project etc.,. Or how he gets the likes of you and Shahid to support him when he uploads copyvios by the hundreds? huh. Sarvagnya 19:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
None of which actually addresses the point made above, though. John Carter 19:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
What's your point anyway? Or is there any point? Gnanapiti 20:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you confirm that every image on that site is copywrighted except the screenshots or promo photos? You still haven't answered on how you think they obtain often twenty to thirty images of an event within hours of it occuring. If such images were copywrighted I seriously doubt they would have twenty or thirty differnet photos, different angles of people etc available and have it organized so quickly. You;ll believe what you want to, and manipulate things and people to make sure you get your way. As John said this is very worrying for wikipedia ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 20:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Aren't you guys already talking about those images in length? Drag the discussion here too? No please! Gnanapiti 20:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Misza13 (talk · contribs)[edit]

Resolved: A mistake has been made here. ➔ REDVEЯS isn't wearing pants 22:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Misza13 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)- In the past few months has appeared to have been running an unauthorised blocking bot and an unauthorised deletion bot under their main account. These bots may be doing a good purpose but I must complain about this as there has been other sysops who have been blocked and had their rights took away. Betacommand (talk · contribs) for example. I don't see why one admin should be allowed to have unauthorised blocking and deletion bots when another hasn't. Please inform me if I have made a mistake here. The sunder king 21:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Everybody knows this...Qst 21:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
See User:Curps, he was a block bot (although still a user), he made over 26,000 blocks during his time here. Qst 21:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict x2) Betacommand didn't get desysopped for running an unauthorized bot. They are two different situations. In many ways, it is one of those "as long as it ain't broken, don't fix it" situations, IMO, such as the Curps blocking and rollback bot a while ago. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, the community generally takes a laissez-faire attitude towards adminbots as long as they aren't disruptive. Misza13's bot has been running for quite a while, performing a useful service without disrupting the project --krimpet 21:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The {{resolved}} wording is a bit insulting... the Betacommand decision included a [43] "Admins should not run bots on their sysop account that are enabled to perform sysop actions (blocking, deleting, etc) without specific community approval from Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval and/or WP:RFA". It can hardly be a mistake to actually think that would be fairly applied. --W.marsh 22:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Arbcom rulings only apply to the case they are part of and do not set policy or precedent. Sometimes rulings follow established convention or the consensus of the time and sometimes rulings lead the establishment of consensus, which later coalesces around the ruling, but consensus can change. If it is the current consensus that adminbots are OK, then that supercedes the ruling. Maybe an admin RFC should be opened to determine what the current situation is? Thatcher131 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Bot policy is policy though. "Prior to use, bots must be approved at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval", "Administrators should block bots if they are unapproved"... I mean, my point is just that it's reasonable for someone to be surprised that everyone's all apathetic about an unapproved adminbot. --W.marsh 01:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Generally agree but since this seems to be a tolerated open secret, it should probably go to a bot talk page somewhere or an admin RFC, rather than directly blocking Misza at this time. Thatcher131 01:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
        • If the only reason it's a problem is "But... but... it's policy!" then it doesn't seem to be a problem... is this bot causing any harm to the project? – Luna Santin (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
          • Please don't try to mock me for pointing out what policy is. I didn't say either way what I think we should do here... I'm just explaining what policy says. --W.marsh 13:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
      • A user running an unapproved bot on his own account takes the full responsibility of the edits made by the account. The way I read the Bot consensus is that bots must be approved if they need the bot flag, or run under a separate account. Most of us sometimes perform AWB runs to fix things under our accounts. -- lucasbfr talk 10:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The Curps block-bot was not in line with the bot policy, but it was still reasonable in the exceptional circumstance that we had. Curps had gone through several precautions to minimize any accidental collateral damage, such as posting an automated ANI message asking for a quick unblock if the block was mistaken. At the time, rapid fire page-move vandalism was a major problem for us, and breaking a policy in order to attack that problem can be justified by pointing to the emergency we had at the time. A single fling of vandalism with 6 vandal accounts could take an hour to clean up and to check that no mistakes with accidental article deletions had been made in the process. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Long-term abuse by ROHA[edit]

A person using a variety of anonymous IPs has made racist and incivil comments in Talk:Cat Stevens. EG a comment on another wikipedian being a Jew, [44], [45]. The person identifies himself as "Hans Rosenthal" (coincidentally, the same name as a holocaust survivor and television personality) or ROHA. A few (but not all) mentions of previous misconduct can be seen in: December 2005, same incident mentioned elsewhere some of the IPs involved, August 2005, February 2006. Does such a user need any more warnings, or should they get blocked? Andjam 01:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Have they been busy recently? Those examples are from a while back and ROHA has always been on a shifting IP so there's little point in blocking. The article was semi-protected in OCtober because of their edits. Just remove the remarks from the talk page. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, the recent comment on Talk: Cat Stevens which was specifically directed at me was on October 14, and it remained there until yesterday - I thank Andjam and Raymond Arritt for objecting to it, and Raymond's removal of it, but the problem seems to me to be deeper than the temporary semi-protection on Cat Stevens, as this gratuitous and unmotivated anti-Semitic comment was on the Talk page which of course wasn't protected - and the article's sprot has since expired. Perhaps the sprot should be made permanent, or much longer-range which might deflect his attention - ROHA has disrupted there before, but he has done so in other places as well, and that wouldn't have stopped his attack on the talk page anyway.
I see a similar discussion going on below about a different IP abuser. Maybe it's time to rethink IP editing if you're not willing to range-block because of worries about collateral damage to innocent editors who use the same IP range. ROHA freely gives his email address, for example - why can't the Foundation's lawyers step in and try to deal with him at that level? Where is the protection against harassment of good faith editors?
If you'd like some more diffs about this person, try here and here. There are more disruptive edits too. Yes, these are old, but that's the point: he's been doing this for years, but now it's gotten personal. I am asking for something more to be done about this abuse. Tvoz |talk 07:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I just found this discussion. Maybe it will help to know, there have been several incidents with a user "Hans Rosenthal" using the name ROHA on :de Wikipedia. Among other statements he clearly states that he is allways using the name ROHA ("Mein Kürzel ist stets ROHA." ). ROHA claimed to be "invulnerable" and will continue as a IP ("ROHA: "Ich bin nicht angreifbar. Weiter unter IP." /I'm invulnerable and will continue as IP). His account was blocked on :de indefinite for being a troll-account (see [46]). He is listed in several :de users'"vandallists", eg. :de admin's de:Benutzer:PDD [47]. The related IP range had to be blocked repeatedly. A request on the :de administrators' noticeboard for detailed info on him (German) shows that he is clearly considered a serious vandal and edit warrior by the admins on :de. I would therefore recommend extreme caution. In this case AGF didn't work out on :de for quite a while. Regards. --Nemissimo 15:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Cool Hand Luke is harassing me[edit]

After an ArbCom where Cool Hand Luke was on the losing side, he is now trolling my edits and reverting edits that satisfy all guidelines. I ask that he be spoken to and desist from harassing me. This is becoming a problem. --David Shankbone 16:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This is absolutely untrue. I've followed the entire debate, and the only reason CHL got involved with Shankbone again, is that Shankbone was once again editing biographical information about a person with whom he has had a very heated on-wiki conflict. The only harassment here has been Shankbone's steadfast refusal to let it go, even though the editor in question is long gone from the project. Shankbone has now done an interview for Wikinews in which he raises inflammatory allegations about one of this editor's colleagues (i.e. allegations of extramarital affairs), and is linking it to that person's BLP. CHL reverted that link, and that's the extent of his so-called "harassment". I can think of half a dozen reasons why Shankbone shouldn't be adding that link (RS, BLP, COI, WEIGHT, EL, OR), and he's reverted 4 times in 3 days. ATren 16:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please provide some diffs. Jeffpw 16:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
ATren is the other person who was involved in the ArbCom dispute. In fact, if you look at this version of his User page he has a lengthy diatribe about me and the ArbCom case. So we have two people who were on the losing side of an ArbCom now harassing me. --David Shankbone 16:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There was no "losing side" as the case was dismissed. Please show diffs of the edits so we don't have to go fishing through all of both of your recent edits and guess where the problem is. Thatcher131 16:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Every finding of fact was working out against THF, and CHL and ATren were arguing his side. It was only dismissed because THF left the project. --David Shankbone 17:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
If you really want to dig up that case: (1) I was not "involved". I participated in the debate, because I felt strongly that a good editor was being hounded for his views. (2) At the time the case was closed, the only proposed negative finding that got 6 votes was the one that discussed your behavior. (3) When I defended THF in that case, you harassed me by repeatedly bringing up a completely unrelated dispute from well over a year ago ([48]) - harassment that went on for several weeks even though I asked you half a dozen times to stop. Shall I go on? David, I've tried to ignore you, even though I very strongly disagree with your attitude and approach here, but when you continue to add questionable material to THF's bio, even though many respected users have asked you to stop, that's when I feel compelled to get involved again. When are you going to let this conflict die? ATren 17:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I added no questionable material to anyone's bio. Ever. And you were very much involved the ArbCom case, ranting and raving. There was only one finding of fact against me--that I could have handled my pursuit of THF better--and it was one I had admitted to going into the ArbCom. --David Shankbone 17:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm done with it. Do whatever you want, and when someone else objects you can dig into their edit histories and attack them with it. You are engaging in the exact same behaviors that you supposedly "admitted to going into arbcom", except that now you're targetting CHL and me as well as THF. It's obvious what's going on here, and I will not be chased off like THF was. I'm disengaging. ATren 17:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You can continue to make preposterous allegations (I remember you calling the ArbCom a kangaroo court) with no basis in reality. I'm the one being trolled and reverted here, not you. --David Shankbone 18:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The case was dropped because THF had been harassed off wikipedia by you David. Then THF made the mistake of thinking that wikipedia policies ment what they said, which they don't if you have friends like newyorkbrad. (Hypnosadist) 13:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

See also the discussion on my Talk page. Raymond Arritt 17:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I'm asking for is for Cool Hand Luke and now ATren, two people who were unsatisfied with the ArbCom as it didn't work out the way they wanted, to stop trolling my edits and reverting me. This is harassment. If they have a problem with one of my edits, broach it with an uninvolved admin to take a look. It's really that simple. But neither of them have a clear head coming out of the ArbCom. --David Shankbone 17:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you provide some diffs to show the edits in question? You have a lot of edits, to your credit, but that makes it hard to sift through your edits and theirs to correlate a pattern of stalking/trolling. If you can provide a few diffs, that would help everyone who's trying to get to the bottom of this. Thanks! ArakunemTalk 19:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The situation is at Paul Wolfowitz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and is also being discussed at WP:BLPN. Briefly, Shankbone conducted an interview with Craig Unger, author of two books on the Bush administration, and posted it at Wikinews. [49] He then linked to the interview at Paul Wolfowitz, [50], which some editors including Cool Hand Luke, objected to. Thatcher131 19:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me as seriously problematic that David has created this content and linked it from the article. As I understand it, no independent editorial party has ever evaluated this content. As basically unreliable material, we should seriously question linking this at all, let alone giving it a privileged position simply b/c it is on a sister site.

Aside from those general concerns, this interview strikes me as uncritical and an example of poor journalism. In short I hardly agree that David's edit "satisfies all guidelines." Christopher Parham (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The "poor journalism" argument is misguided. An interview is not always set up to challenge a person, but can also be to record their views. Here, we have a renowned journalist who has been a contributing editor, editor-in-chief or deputy editor of major publications. The idea was to talk about his book, not challenge him on it. That does not make it "poor journalism". --David Shankbone 21:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • In fact, Shankbone added the link to 8 or 10 articles about conservative people and organizations, and Cool Hand Luke removed it from two, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas J. Feith‎, which seems to be the basis of the "stalking" claim. Thatcher131 20:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I picked out only the BLPs, where the Wikinews link had already been removed by other editors and reinserted by David. People inserting information into BLPs bear the burden of justifying it, and these links looked like a BLP issue to me. I did not revert his work or hassle him for the sake of it. I just pulled out the narrow subset that looked like a serious problem. This is not frivolous or harassment. Many users seem to agree that the edits were questionable. Cool Hand Luke 22:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, there is edit warring without use of the article talk page. That is inappropriate behavior. I've protected the page in question temporarily. If consensus is reached on the subject of the edit war, any admin can unprotect. GRBerry 21:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Another weird legal edit[edit]

Got another weird one. After the legal threat last week, I'm a little warry about this one. An IP user has blanked a redirect for the acronym PIPC, claiming that it's a registered trademark, and they will be making reports to the US Patent office if the redirect is continued to be used to point to an unrelated organization. Really hard to tell if there is any validity to the issue. I'm not really certain what, if anything, needs to be done now. Maybe just a few more admin eyes on the redirect in case something blows up here. - TexasAndroid 21:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a crock. The patent office has nothing to do with trademarks in the first place, and the use of the trademark is fair use when referring to it in this matter. Block the User for making legal threats, and move on. Corvus cornix 21:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've put a WP:LEGAL warning on the anon's Talk page. Corvus cornix 21:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You're right that the claim is a crock, but you're wrong about the patent office: the full name of the organization is the United States Patent and Trademark Office. --Carnildo 23:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Just an update, this appears to be far from over. More updates this morning on the PIPC redirect, including continued trademark claims. Thanks to those who jumped in to deal with it. - TexasAndroid 17:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Cladeal832 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)[edit]

Resolved: Disruptive users blocked. See dispute resolution for further steps if the problem repeats. - Jehochman Talk 17:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I am asking that an administrator enforce the conditions laid upon Cladeal832 for constantly reverting articles with no rationale. I reported Cladeal and his/her sockpuppet/meatpuppet, an anon user, and was kindly helped by GTBacchus. Refer to these pages for GTBacchus' response: User talk:Charles#Re: Ancestry template dispute, User talk:Cladeal832#Dispute noted at WP:ANI and User talk:GTBacchus#Comment requested at WP:AN/I and also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive325#Nonconstructive reverts and edits to ancestry templates by IP address Currently, the user is still reverting without posting again to the talk pages, saying that I am not following the administrator's advice, which I have been doing. In an effort to preserve peace and maintain this articles, I ask that this user be dealt with according to the conditions/consequences already laid out. He/she has not shown him/herself to be willing to discuss anything beyond saying "there is nothing wrong with my edits", essentially, ignoring all discussions thereafter. Note the differences at GTBacchus' talk page after the user was warned to discuss edits. He/she simply reverted after without discussing them, yet calls on me to discuss them (which I have done). I do not want to engage this individual in edit warring. I would like to see him or her dealt with. Charles 22:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Really get a bit sick of my best buddy Charles here. The guy will not let up. He keeps tracking my edits, adds unnecessary edits, then goes to every adiministor he can find, then one responds to just discuss it on the article Talkpage, and stop edits, but instead just reverts edits anyhow. I would like Charles dealt with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cladeal832 (talkcontribs) 22:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I have not been stalking the user's edits. Obviously, he or she has been stalking mine as he or she found his- or herself here three minutes after I posted. I have some 1300 pages on my watchlist. Almost all of them (about 98%) are royalty articles and I check most changes in my watchlist in an effort to combat vandalism and the like. When the ancestry charts were first created, I and others began implementing them and either then or after, the names in them have been adjusted to reflect the standard at WP:NC(NT). Cladeal's petty reversions amount to vandalism on a consistent, bothersome and sad basis. I have followed the administrator's advice of explaining my edits on the talk pages but have not been treated to the courtesy of discussion. Cladeal simply reverts the changes and says anything along the lines of "this is better" or "this is consistent" when there is absolutely no rationale for such. "Consistency" is brought with the naming conventions I have cited and it also reflects the article names (generally the simplest and shortest way of linking). It states that kings, emperors and their consorts are named Name (Ordinal) of Place and that all over royals are Title Name of Place or Name, Title of Place (if holding a substantive title). I have explained this but with no response from the other user. Charles 22:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, for the purposes of this report, the previously mentioned anonymous user, (talk · contribs), is active again. Charles 03:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with a redirect? Cladeal832 04:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record, the exact same question asked by the anon user on a number of talk pages. As I explained elsewhere, there isn't a problem with redirects, but they are bypassed if possible and especially where the case warrants it, such as applying titles and ordinals to individuals where it is not warranted and contravenes naming conventions for the sake of "consistency". The naming conventions themselves are as consistent as possible in how they treat royals as I explained in my previous post here. Charles 05:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked both Cladeal and the IP for 48 hours for obvious puppetry in the furtherance of an edit war, best evidence seen at the history of Sophie of Württemberg. I however suggest to Charles to take further conflicts up the dispute resolution chain, as serial blocking is not a good course to take, and edit wars are never good. --Golbez 05:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Flat out blatant personal attack[edit]

I'd like to draw attention to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fruit (slang) and the ridiculous personal attack left by User: towards User:Benjiboi. The comment can be seen in the AfD history here: history. It was removed, so User: went and posted it again on