Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive400

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Realist2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is blocked, and the block extended, for referring to another user as a bigot. It looks to me as if this was exactly correct: the other user, Bsrboy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who he had previuosly considered a friend, made several grossly inappropriate racist edits to his talk page.

Under the circumstances, calling Bsrboy a bigot does not seem unreasonable, and Realist's exasperation at being sanctioned for doing so is not surprising. I think we should consider unblocking Realist2 and unlocking his talk page. Guy (Help!) 07:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. I think rather too much is made of WP:CIV, sanctions should be imposed on those who habitually disrupt the project with gratuitous incivility, but to slap blocks on someone who is responding to extreme provocation just by calling a spade a spade? I don't think this is helpful, we should not be punishing contributors who appear to be in good standing just for an occasional intemperate comment. Gatoclass (talk) 09:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Good Lord, someone is subjected to a slew of racist vitriol, and we then block that person for saying the one who made the remarks was a bigot? What is this place coming to? Raymond Arritt (talk) 09:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks like it's time to 'unblock' to me. R. Baley (talk) 09:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Extremely bad block, both the original, but much more the extension. Also a procedural error, in that User:Golbez denied two separate unblock requests. I strongly suggest unblock - indeed, I was on the unblock page, but, given the amount of discussion, I decided to wait for a bit more exposure. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I responded to the 2nd and 3rd responses; my feelings were, unblock is not for admin-shopping, and he had been denied by two admins already at that point, there was no harm in responding again. When he asked for another admin, I remained silent. --Golbez (talk) 19:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
And actually, in retrospect, in that regard I apologize for my actions. --Golbez (talk) 20:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm tired of this shit. Incivility is grossly misunderstood. We are not obligated to act as British nobility at all times. Accusations are not incivility. Thicker skin. In addition, civility is not one's 'right to be unoffended.' Call me a bigot and I'll defend it, but I won't block. He's unblocked, because I'm not going to allow another MONGO situation occur. People should not be blocked pending outcomes; they should remain 'free' so they can express their concerns, and then action can be taken. I have never understood the 'block until terms are met' philosophy. He's unblocked. Feel free to drop me a line or take it up here or at RfC. the_undertow talk 09:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Realist2 reacted sloppily and emotionally to blockable, hateful taunting and baiting. No way did his response call for a block. Rather I think, some kind words and a broad, friendly hint to hold off on hurling back at the bullying would have done. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There's absolutely no parallel between this open-and-shut unblock based on an obvious misapplication of WP:CIVIL and the MONGO problem. Neither should this justifiable outrage be used as a stick with which to beat civility. What I'm tired of is this continual ranting about how its mis-applied. I see it mis-applied no more often than notability at AfDs or naming conventions at WP:N, so lets retain a sense of proportion. --Relata refero (disp.) 10:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Then feel free to take me up on it, as we have obvious differences in the MONGO case. It is a parallel. Civility, as a reason to complain, has been taken too far, as has personal attacks. I will say it again, because it is important to me, but there is nothing about this wiki that says a person has the right to feel unoffended, unaccosted, or unhurt. People are too often hiding behind incivility when something upsets them. If someone pisses you off, it's not incivility, but that is the majority interpretation. That needs to end. There are 17 ways to call someone a dick, but we allow it to proceed as long as people hide behind the essay. Civility needs some serious revisions, as does the essay. If someone is an ass, call them on it. That's real life. If they are offended, they either need to defend or get over it. the_undertow talk 10:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Excellent. Let's take it off the board, and take it to WT:CIVIL. We actually do care that people by and large feel unoffended, unaccosted and unhurt, because that creates an atmosphere in which collegial disussion is impossible. So, by all means, lets have this discussion. While I agree that people "hide behind incivility" to win content disputes, and argued at length that that was so during the Dbachmann arbitration, that's got nothing to do with what you are claiming is also a mis-application of civility. I look forward to hearing your opinions on Jehochman's complaint there, which has been discussed since 3 April without any of the people complaining about over-enforcement or mis-application here turning up.
I note that I will personally be quite relieved if some of the rules are relaxed, as it is difficult sometimes to keep my temper in check, especially when everybody else seems to be letting theirs go. So let's at it. --Relata refero (disp.) 10:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocking a user for calling a bigot, a bigot? It's time to ignore mushy-headed civility that some administrators are trying to impose on editors and actually tackle the problem users, otherwise it will spell the end of this site. — Κaiba 10:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I am greatly in favour of increased civility on the Wikipedia, and I also think that both the original block and especially the extension were bad. Blocking someone for trying to defend themself from a racist attack is about as low as a person can go. Far better to have offered Realist2 support in dealing with the bigot (I think that offering support to editors who are having difficulties should be seen as one of the duties of admins). DuncanHill (talk) 10:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I did discuss this with the blocking admin on IRC last night, and to be clear I do not think that the blocking admin did anything wrong or evil, I just think that on reflection a mistake was made in good faith. I hope we can fix the mistake. I've talked to the user by email, English is not his first language so some small allowances must be made. On the AN thread about civility, Rspeer said something about nobody noticing is a relative newbie gets hit with a block - this guy is not even a newbie, he's got a decent number of edits, and he was viciously attacked by a bigot (there, I said it again). I think we should try to fix the damage. Guy (Help!) 11:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I really really doubt that a native or near-native fluency in English is needed for comparing the potential offensiveness of the word "bigot" (or almost any other word) with that of "nigger". I'm hoping the real factor was a lack of familiarity with the whole situation. That said, I am completely dumbfounded by the number of declined unblock requests. — CharlotteWebb 12:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to say I can begin to sympathize with Realist2 after he had explained the problems he has been having, and am comfortable with this unblock at the moment. However, being personally attacked does not, and should not, give you license to attack others. I cannot believe that people actually think it does. Also, you all might want to change WP:NPA which is policy, and remove the part that says "It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user. " if we're not going to stick by that; which it does not appear that we are. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The user in question has not simply acted "foolish or boorish", he has viciously attacked Realist2 in a fucking racist asshole way. And Realist2 has not "attacked others", but rather lashed out only against the original attacker. That was not particularly wise, but understandable, and in no way a sign that the user has general tendencies to problematic behavior. I would have expected an admin who looked into the issue to offer some sympathetic advice, not final warnings and blocks. I think that was a serious lapse of judgement and would encourage you to look a little bit deeper and to act more considerate in the future. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I just managed to get my ip block thing removed to have the chance to say thankyou for looking at my case with a little compassion, but i wont be coming back to wikipedia, im retiring, im grossly unhappy with the way wikipedia reacts to these things. You follow these rules like robots not realising there is a person suffering. I have a few things to tie up and then im gone. You were prepared to pay the other guy more attention than myself, you have now lost a person who makes 2200 positive edits a month. I hope this case will make things change, i wish the next guy who is betrayed by a racist friend on wikipedia all the best, i know from my experience that there is no1 out there lokking after him. Still this block will remain on my record and i will be viewed in the same light as the other person involved. Realist2 (talk) 16:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It is an accepted part of policy and our best practices that we do not engage in personal attacks even against trolls, racists, and even spammers. While I sympathize, I cannot condone that sort of behavior. I am sorry you are retiring, perhaps in the future you can deal with this. (1 == 2)Until 17:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and folks please note that this user was not blocked for calling a bigot a bigot, but for calling a bigot "You fucking bitch...". Much of what is said above seems to be unaware of that. When you leap to someones defense it often helps to do some independent research on the matter instead of just reading what was said about the situation. (1 == 2)Until 19:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The user was taunted and baited. His highly emotional response was not at all acceptable but it was understandable. Rather than a block, a friendly warning to not let loose with any more outbursts would have been enough. Then, after two or three warnings, if he had carried on with it, a block would have been called for but this is not what happened. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, like this one? The user was warned before the block. As for two or three warnings, that would be a matter of discretion. The user was not carted out of the kingdom, it was a short block. The fact is when people get highly emotional they sometimes need to be temporarily removed from Wikipedia. (1 == 2)Until 19:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The pith is, they don't look like friendly warnings to me. To an emotionally upset editor reeling from a hateful, race-based baiting spree, I don't think they came off as you intended, but upset him even more. You clearly meant to be helpful, but some editors won't be thinking clearly after being dumped on with hate like those taunts. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
A hell of a lot more friendly than "Get a life you racist twat". Frankly I don't see anything wrong with the warning. Wikipedia is not therapy and when people are emotionally upset and not thinking clearly they sometimes act in a way that requires them to take some time out from the project. Reasoning with the user did not get a response, so the user was blocked. If you don't like that try to propose a change to our policies. (1 == 2)Until 20:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you mean. No need for therapy, but maybe a shred of WP:wikilove? The warnings were neutral, bureaucratic. The user was wailing, crying. This is a community of people behind these usernames. I don't think the blocking admin did anything wrong, I think the user lost his head (so to speak), way, but our approach to targets of these extreme attacks in the aftermath could use some tweaking, maybe. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Getting kicked in the head doesn't give you the right to kick them back. Responding to a personal attack with another personal attack is pointless and only works against you. HalfShadow (talk) 20:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yep, I agree all the way with you. I'm only talking about how the block itself was handled. On the other hand, he was indeed unblocked in the end, so I wouldn't rush to say the policy is botched either. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The real problem as I see it was that the block review did not really address the (admittedly poorly stated) unblock rationale. It would be a mistake to make a Fedeeral case of this, but it would also be a mistake to miss an opportunity to learn something. My interactions with the user showed someone hurt and angry but quite reasonable, and the block message on the user page of the person baiting him was something of a clue. I am not a great thinker of deep thoughts, I tend to believe that people who get blocked by admins who engage in civil debate (as Rjd was on IRC) have generally done something to deserve blocking. But when I looked at the talk page and the unblock requests and the user page of the harassing user, something did not look quite right. I think what we got wrong was to fail to properly, independently assess the background. It was an easy mistake to make, and I am sure I have made the same mistake myself in the past, so it's a learning opportunity. Guy (Help!) 21:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Most definitely was a learning experience, however, I feel we are sending a message here that we really shouldn't be, and that is: Its okay to call somebody a "sick fuck" as long as they call you a "black bastard" first. Not good. - Rjd0060 (talk) 21:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, spot on, let's not send that message. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with that. The initial outburst needed to be contained, and was, and that seems reasonable. The issue here is how we handled the situation after that, and also how we informed the user about the issues, the block on the other account, and the fact that, regardless of his outburst, the other user's quite unacceptable behaviour was also being addressed. Realist's problem was that he saw himself as being treated more harshly than his aggressor, who was of demonstrably less value to the project. This was a valid concern. I have learned fomr this, that long-standing contributors have earned a little more explanation and a little more in the way of updates - much as we handle OTRS cases, in fact. Guy (Help!) 22:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I am also sorry I was out yesterday as I very likely would have lifted the block, or at least joined the conversation here. Rjd0060 and other unblock-reviewing admins did not know what I knew. Sorry about that. Thatcher 23:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Are these blocked? As a rangeblock it would only be 4096 users. Is it worth checking to prevent further recurrence of this nonsense? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The range is blocked for 2 weeks and Bsrboy (talk · contribs) is indefinitely blocked, having been offered the chance to come back after a month of good behavior. However, he does not seem to grasp this, and the application of a cluestick at User talk: would be appreciated. Thatcher 23:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Mass deletion outside of RfD or CSD[edit]

Something just doesn't sit right with me on this. Apparently we have some admins who are mass deleting "orphaned talk page redirects", for some unknown reason, and without a CSD or an RfD. [2] [3]. One of the big reasons we have RfD is because there are often incoming links on other websites that use these redirects, and there are probably other reasons why this shouldn't be done. So why is such a mass deletion (no matter how minor some might see it as) happening? Some of these talk pages once contained content, even if it was something as simple as a WikiProject rating, or a couple of comments. -- Ned Scott 02:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed some of these deletions. I agree it seems like a bad idea. Aleta Sing 02:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
There's a massive discussion going on above on this page Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 02:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
ok, i think i can clear some of this up seeing as how i used to work with redirects (apologies for the ip, but i locked myself out of my account in 2007). it appears that none of these talk pages ever had any content at any point, so that's not in the wrong... your point about external links seems to be a good one. (talk) 02:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be at least one mistaken deletion noted at User talk:MZMcBride#Sydney Suburb talk page deleted, and I'm 90% sure that at least some of them did contain some content other than a redirect edit. -- Ned Scott 03:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The talk page noted in that thread had no history other than a redirect from a page move in January and has no incoming links. Mr.Z-man 04:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. MZMcBride's deletions are also a lot slower. I presume he is manually reviewing them. The activity is ongoing, so I will drop him another talk page message. Carcharoth (talk) 04:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
He replied at my talk page and wants to discuss it there instead of here. Carcharoth (talk) 05:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
There is also a thread about this further up the page. Might be an idea to merge them. I've randomly checked some of the deletions by MZMcBride (someone should tell him about these threads), and he seems to be using a different script, as unlike East718's deletions, they are genuinely orphaned in all namespaces (East's script ignored backlinks from Wikipedia and User namespaces). Carcharoth (talk) 02:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The thread above seems to be more about an admin-bot issue, rather than the deletion itself, so I'm not sure about that. -- Ned Scott 03:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Note left for MZM. -- Ned Scott 03:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User:CarlosRodriguez continuted disruption[edit]

This user was recently blocked for 24 hours for "Edit-warring and disruption" by User:Jossi. I was told to come here if the behavior continued, and here I am. Since returning, he has continuted his disruptive behavior in the form of POV edits that he is constantly warned against making, and edit wars to get them in (though he may not have broken WP:3RR this time, yet). These diffs [4], [5] are identical to the edits he was warned against and blocked for. These diffs [6], [7], [8] are the same thing, only done individually over the course of 3 edits, one after the other. Thanks, Grsz11 05:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

He made four edits to Jeremiah Wright sermon controversy on April 11. I could be wrong, but I think they were all reverts because they restored edits he made to Jeremiah Wright before the controversy page existed (It was created on the 10th.) and the material was located there. But this happened a few days ago now, so I don't know if a block is still in order. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, those edits were edits he had previously made at the Jeremiah Wright article, but were rejected as POV by others. The edits he's been making at Jeremiah Wright sermon controversy are identical to those at Jeremiah Wright that got him blocked the first time. Grsz11 05:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
In that case, it looks like a clear-cut case of WP:3RR violation. But it's a few days old already, so I don't know if the admins will block. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Gave final warning, especially in regards to two talk page comments and his edit warring. I will proceed to block if the disruption continues. seicer | talk | contribs 06:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

X for Dummies fork[edit]

Browsing some random articles, I came across M-theory, which has a note on the top directing people to Introduction to M-theory, a "generally accessible and less technical introduction to the topic". The introduction article cites not a single source, which aroused suspicion. As we are not the Simple English wikipedia (that's over at the page seemed to stray somewhat close to a semblance of a POV fork, or at least something that can be explained at the main article. Just posting here to gather some opinions. -Mask? 05:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the note at the top is a template, which would mean it's used elsewhere as well. But i'm still iffy about it. Grsz11 05:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
At least part of the article appears to have been copied from the book Turn of the Century. See [9] at Google Books. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 05:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Indeed it does. Good catch. -Mask? 05:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The edit introducing the copyvio is here. It dates to 2004, and text after that is a derivitive, so this will have to be culled back to its state as of then. -Mask? 06:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
As Grsz notes, the article is one of several of its sort, one of which is a featured article (the talk page of its FAC features a discussion of the propriety of our maintaining "introduction to" articles). The format is counseled by the Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible#"Introduction to..." articles style guideline, a proposed justification for which may be found, at least in part, in the "Many things..." essay. I, for one, have long thought we might do well to part with these articles, but a discussion about the underlying practice is best held at VPP or (with a link from VPP) Wikipedia talk:Make technical articles accessible. Joe 06:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Introduction to XXX articles are quite common and they are quite different to articles on the Simple English wikipedia, where the limited vocabulary of simple English is used. Intro articles just help to explain a topic in an introductory fashion in standard English. --Bduke (talk) 06:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that they're common. They don't fit into summary style, and should be used rarely if at all. Superm401 - Talk 06:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I hardly ever see them and they cause worries. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
These are definitely important, and serve a valuable purpose. On many subjects there is an endless argument between people who want Wikipedia to be a General Purpose encyclopedia and a technical one and there is simply no good way to divy these up. By removing material of a technical nature to a more technical article this plays an important role in helping users understand the topic, while still providing a valuable resource for those who want more than what a normal encyclopedia would offer. --Haemo (talk) 07:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyvio repair[edit]

I've reverted to the january 2004 version (the last one before the verbatim book text was introduced) as a quick measure. Someone needs to clear out the page history to that point to kill the copyvio and its derivatives. -Mask? 07:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the copyrighted revisions and restored the infobox and a few other non coyrighted bits --Chris 07:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Completed AFD nomination on behalf of User:Gwen Gale[edit]

It seems that Gwen Gale started to nominate this page for deletion but didn't finish the job; I just completed it. If anyone disagrees feel free to revert. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 09:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Someone was clearing out the page history because of the copyvio and the article itself disappeared for a few minutes, leaving things in the lurch. A couple of editors have since argued that an introductory article on this topic could be helpful. If anyone wants to simply revert the AfD now, I'm ok with that. I'll have another look at things tonight and if it's still there, may or may not want to go forward with it. Strike that, someone has already commented to delete so I'd rather it stayed. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User: being disruptive[edit]

Yes check.svg Resolved.

This anonymous IP is one of several sock puppets of Edward G. Nilges, who's main account spinoza1111 has been blocked indefinitely for being disruptive. Mr. Nilges has used his sock puppets to post extremely long, disruptive, and unproductive rants on the talk page of the Ayn Rand article and when these rants were deleted he proceeded to vandalize the article itself calling her an "ugly cunt" and calling the editors "aspergerian retards". Since Mr. Nilges has obviously failed to learn his lesson about being disruptive, it is requested that his sock puppet accounts also be blocked indefinitely. His known sock puppet IPs are,, and Idag (talk) 09:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

IPs are never blocked indefinitely, unless they're open proxies. I blocked the IP for two weeks, in the hope that he'll lose interest in the meantime. Daniel Case (talk) 09:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User:RobJ1981's disputes with various editors[edit]

Every since he has had a problem with me here: List of characters in Bully, he has been uncivil and shown a lot of bad faith. A few recent examples: [10] (first time he blanked my comment on the talk page). I reverted it, and told him about Template:Notyours. Later, he once again blanked my comment out: [11]. Then there is this: [12], which I see also as bad faith. It should be noted I hadn't edited that Bully list page (or it's talk) for a while, so his original attack (found here: [13], wasn't necessary at all. There was no need to drag past editors into the discussion, and basically drag their name in the mud because of past disputes. Then he butted into this alert: Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Angrymansr, due to past issues with me. I also posted this at Wikiquette alerts, the issue with him seems to fit both pages in my view. RobJ1981 (talk) 05:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Rob posted this exact same thing on Wikiquette Alerts already.
Not to mention he has been reported on wikiquette alerts by me about a week ago, where he was told by an administrator to knock it off. Exact quote. McJeff (talk) 06:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Recommend you avoid each other. Stifle (talk) 10:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
    • I don't think that's fair to be quite honest - why should my wikipedia editing be constrained because he won't quit harassing me after having been told to knock it off? McJeff (talk) 17:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit hard to avoid him, when he follows me around on Wikipedia and posts on a majority of the same talk pages I do. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
We've been involved in a grand total of three articles. One of them was your bad faith AfD on Vicious and Delicious. Another was the List of Characters in Bully. The only article you were working on that I later stepped into is Smackdown vs Raw 2008, and that was after Angrymansr brought your behavior on that article to my attention on your warning at Wikiquette alerts.
And might I remind you that you were instructed to stop the bad faith attacks on me, and that accusing me of wikistalking is bad faith, especially since it's not just a false accusation but a blatant attempt at smearing me? McJeff (talk) 23:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't talk about smearing: when you do that to me on the alerts page, and everywhere else where you mention my name. I wouldn't have such a problem, if you didn't drag me into the Bully talk page again. Just because my name was mentioned, didn't mean you needed to respond in the way you did. I clearly wasn't editing the talk or article, so my name didn't need to be mentioned (except for the fact that I didn't edit there anymore). Then all the removing of my comment (that you finally realized wasn't the correct thing to do), didn't help matters. Don't get me started on the AFD. I had every right to nominate it, and it wasn't in bad faith. You and Dan took it personal, that's not my problem. Don't make up things (and/or twist things around) to make me look bad, so you look good to the editors that read this. RobJ1981 (talk) 06:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
What makes you think I took the AFD to Vicious and Delicious personal then? I didn't know the article was up for deletion until McJeff asked me to join the debate. He asked me that since he knows I'm a wrestling fan. Secondly your comments there at the debate, You say there thats it's likely that he told me to join the debate, which isn't true, then you stated that I didn't make any edits to wrestling articles, which is true yes, but that does not mean that I can't voice my opinions on a wrestling subject, or if wrestling article should stay. Dan the Man1983 (talk) 10:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
You are acting as if he was the one who mentioned your name first out of the blue on the discussion page. Dan the Man1983 (talk) 09:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
You had a right to AfD Vicious and Delicious. That doesn't mean you did it for the right reason. For that matter, I had every right to participate in the Angrymansr user alert, so maybe you should stop bringing that up like it matters. McJeff (talk) 07:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Have to agree with User:Stifle on this one. If you guys can't make an actual effort to "just get along" than you should both make the effort to avoid each other. It isn't down to either one of you. My suggestion is for you both to stay away from any articles currently in the middle of your dispute and to double check your own civility on talk pages, edit summaries, etc. to help make sure these sort of issues don't occur again. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I tried my best to leave the article we both have edited (the Bully list), but he didn't want to leave things alone. Now, it's Jeff, Dan and Angrymansr ganging up on me... just to cause problems and harass me. RobJ1981 (talk) 21:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
So of course the appropriate reaction is to [14] wikistalk me]. McJeff (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
For the past couple of months, I have tried avoiding RobJ1981; after purposely not participating in various XfDs he started, today however he nominated an article for deletion that I was the last editor to edit prior to its nomination. In my keep argument in the MfD, I did not insult Rob or chastise him. And because this article concerns "in popular culture", which has a Wikiproject for which I am a member, I listed it there, but Rob is starting an edit war with the members of the group over its being listed there. As you can see from my talk page, another member of the group strongly disagrees with what Rob has done. Rob has castigated that editor on his talk page. Until now, I have avoided jumping in on Rob's disputes with Angrymansr, Dan, and McJeff, because I do not like piling on someone and I thought we had in effect avoided each other effectively for a couple of months now; I guess that hope was wrong. And so, for it's worth, these problems indicated above have occured with a large number of editors and over much of Rob's Wikipedia-history. Eyrian was one of only three editors to persistently go after me since my return to Wikipedia in the summer. Dannycali was blocked as a sock puppet after a check user and a different check user turned up multiple socks of Eyrian. That leaves RobJ1981 who like Dannycali and Eyrian has a staunch anti-in popular culture mentality and a concerted aggression against myself. I strongly urge you to consider the evidence I have submitted in the Alkivar case as well as that submitted below. Anyway, now RobJ1981 is removing my rescue tags to articles! Please see [15], [16], and [17]. These articles are not ones that he nominated for deletion and I limit my use of the rescue tag to maybe one or two articles at most a day and only for articles that I also make an effort to improve. I am avoiding reverting his latest edit, but I think his removal of the tag is in bad faith. He has been cautioned about this behavior: [18], [19], [20], and [21]. He even admits that he will follow me around: [22] and [23]. And admins are not taking kindly to his edits about me: [24] and [25]. I suppose I am just a little concerned that I will not be able to participate in any AfDs that he nominates without him posting after me or commenting about me. Here are just some of RobJ1981's recent edits after or about me (notice the one on January 2nd, i.e. his first post since not posting for a few days in about me): [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], and [53]. Please note that I even stayed out of this "in popular culture" AfD he started: [54]. I also avoided this AfD: [55]. And I avoided these ones as well: [56] and [57]. I did, however, participate in this one discussion: [58]. So, of the various AfDs he started or participated in the duration of those weeks, I initially only participated in one, whereas he had posted in nearly every one after me, removed my rescue tag from an article, and even left comments in AfDs hoping admins would disregard my arguments. Finally, it seemed as if we had left each other alone for a couple months then until today. Please also consider this: [59]. Please also see [60]. The category is not exactly flooded and those that I did not myself tag, I also attempted to improve. He STILL even after another admin's comment to him about his commenting on my posts did so anyway: [61]. I gave a few reasons why I thought the article should be saved, but he fixates on one aspect of my remark. Can we not participate in the same AfDs, even ones that he did not nominate, without him leaving notes to or about me rather than about the article? DGG cautioned Rob about doing this: [62]. Yet, Rob kept doing so. If I tried avoiding AfDs Rob started or posted in, why was it so hard for him to do the same for me? Also, please note that RobJ1981 is also edit warring with and getting into conflict with many other users: [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74], [75], [76], [77], [78], [79], [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], etc. Notice here: [90], [91], and [92]. He writes: “the consensus is to merge” and insults Smile Lee. 6 for merge, 4 for keep is hardly “consensus.” He writes: “Smile Lee is the only one that refuses to accept the consensus.” Uh, myself and others wanting to keep do not want to merge either. And even with Kyaa the Catlord acknowledging that it was no discussion, Rob just went ahead and redirected anyway. See also this discussion: [93]. Notice the final person to post says the decision is to have a table and earlier in the discussion all those who disagree with Rob. How does Rob react? [94]. Is he just ignoring the same talk page?! Rob has also been warned for false accusations post-Thanksgiving: [95]. If you scroll through RobJ1981's talk page history, you’ll also see that RobJ1981 even disagreed to an offer at mediation in one of the disputes. I especially find JzG’s comments to RobJ1981 compelling: “Having proven beyond reasonable doubt that they are separate accounts, creating a second sockpuppetry case against them looks a lot like harassment. I have deleted it. Do not pursue that line again.” In other words, his aggressiveness toward me, McJeff, Angrymansr, and Dan the man and now ErgoSum is hardly new as he has done so with others even after well-established admins told him otherwise. Please consider the above in conjunction with all the other evidence I presented of Rob's incivility and assumption of bad faith. I do not get why he still will not leave certain editors alone and why he keeps getting into conflict with others as well. It would be nice to be able to edit without Dannycali, Eyrian, and/or RobJ1981 hovering over me when I have sought mentorship and frequently ask admins for advice and help with editing. Thank you for your time and efforts! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 20:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles: it's unreasonable to tell an active member of a Wikiproject to stop participating at AFDs for that project's articles just because another editor is a rude and overly aggressive deletionist. This has already been through a wikiquette alert and an independent observer determined it was RobJ1981 who needed to cool down. Roi has been consistently polite, and as far as I can tell nobody is ganging up against or wikistalking RobJ1981. When several people acting independently all see the same problems with the one editor's behavior it's time for self-examination; there's a chance the consensus is right. DurovaCharge! 01:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

He makes claims of me stalking him: (here as one example: [96], but he does the same thing here: [97]: I created a MFD and he commented in it. Being a hypocrite isn't the answer. RobJ1981 (talk) 16:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
You guys are both edit warring (here, here, here, and here) at the moment and you were edit-warring with a wiki-project the other day. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
More stalking by McJeff: [98]. 7 minutes later he posts in it: [99]. I asked for outside opinions on the matter, not his view (which is already clear on the talk page of the article that I mentioned). Watch, in a matter of minutes he will reply here because he checks my contributions regularly it seems. Perhaps it might be bad faith to call it stalking, but frankly if he wants to end it: he can ignore sections instead of posting in them to add fuel to this conflict. Then there is his sneaky behavior: (a revert with no explanation: [100]. Then there is this: [101], he's removing maintenance tags that don't have the problems fixed. From the history of it: he's been edit warring with me (along with others) about the notability tag, and now he's been bold enough to remove all the tags for no good reason. It takes two people to have a conflict. He needs to stop worrying about other's actions, if his behavior is just as bad. RobJ1981 (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
You see, the thing that bothers me most about this whole incident is I know my reputation is getting smeared because of the incidiousness of Rob's attacks on me. They're not really the kind of thing you can ignore, but responding to all of the things he's accused me of makes me look like a bickering prat. And of course I'm not blameless myself, but it's hard to be 100% reasonable and even handed when you have another editor who's going over everything you do with a fine tooth comb, waiting for you do anything that could even remotely be interpreted as a slip up, so he has more ammunition to use in his crusade against your general existence on wikipedia.
In regards to the Smackdown vs Raw article, I'd like to direct people to the discussion I started, where his defense for himself was to accuse me of wikilawyering while refusing to defend his own position. Edit warring? I guess, but when you have one person who believes that they and they alone control the wikipedia policy and attempts to push that into the article, I'd call it a violation of WP:OWN, and borderline vandalism on the grounds that he knows he's aggrivating just about everyone and continuing to make his edits anyway.
I will not discuss the Dungeons & Dragons stuff unless an administrator requests me to, because I don't believe it has any relevance here. McJeff (talk) 18:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
McJeff continues his uncivil ways: [102]. His newest claim is I'm rounding up "anti-roster list buddies". I contacted one user about it, and I did the mature thing by listing the issue on the video game project talk page. There is NO doubt, you are edit warring. Don't thrown ownership on me, when that's the attitude you've had since Angrymansr told you about the article in the first place. RobJ1981 (talk) 04:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Time to open an RFC/U then[edit]

OK, now that some of the evidence has been aired above, I suspect now is the time to open an RFC/U case regarding Robj1981's harassment of other users. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to do this. Maybe Le Grande Roi would like to start? He seems a highly competant wikipedian. McJeff (talk) 23:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the compliment; however, it is worth it for you to gain your own experience with such aspects of Wikipedia and all you need to do is follow the instructions at WP:RFC/U. You might want to check with User:Mangojuice first about how to go about starting a new one since he deleted an old one a day ago. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 23:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I can handle creating a new one I think. But to do so I need evidence that at least two users have tried to civilly work things out with Rob to no avail. I've done so myself, but I don't think Angrymansr or DanTheMan have tried. Have you? McJeff (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, please see my post in the above section and check his and my talk page histories for evidence. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Here we go. [103] Posting it here so I don't lose it while writing this bad boy up. McJeff (talk) 04:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, like that. Ideally, I wish we could all just edit civily and agree to disagree when we reach an impasse and I urge you to be careful not to also engage in any edit-warring or make any regrettable remarks (if you think it might possibly be construed as incivil, don't write it). If you haven't done so, be sure to make an attempt to resolve any differences peacefully. Anyway, though, perhaps more importantly than the section you link to is the administrator's warning below against making further stalking accusations against various users, which could result in a block: see here. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 04:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I see that McJeff has in fact started an RFC/U at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/RobJ1981. Regards, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


He canvassed once.[104] I warned him to stop it.[105] He blanked it.[106]

He sent me an attacking message "You are a page blanking vandal. That is all you are and all you ever will be." But what disturbs me the most is that a user who has not made even 50 edits yet tells me to read WP:MOS.[107] I find it futile to warn him again as he has blanked one. Ultra! 14:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, it is she not he. Secondly, I am taking my time to read all Wikipedia policies before I make substantive edits. It's a pity he does not since he manages to annoy. It is deplorable that he comes running to WP:ANI. As for the comment about him being a Page Blanking Vandal, that is a true statement of fact. Look here [noticeboard/IncidentArchive246#Vikrant Phadkay]. He has been blocked twice from Wikipedia for being a page blanking vandal. That all came out in his humilliating attempt to become a Wikipedia Admin. Read the RfA to see how united people were against his application. It was not canvassing to inform User:Maddyfan about this [for adminship/Vikrant Phadkay]. Note the comments made by User:hbdragon88 about Vikrant Phadkay's outbursts of temper and acts of vandalism that led him twice to being blocked from Wikipedia. (he changed his screen name to Ultraviolet scissor flame). Maddyfan at that point was in dispute with him and had warned him about being blocked again. Look here User talk:Ultraviolet scissor flame/Archive 3#Madonna. I warned Vikrant Phadkay not to leave rude messages on my Talk Page again as did user:emerson 7, look here User talk:Ultraviolet scissor flame/Archive 4#i have been warned?. He was the one who first left an attack message on my page, on 3 March 2008 [108], and I only replied when I logged on Wikipedia again on 7 April 2008 - more than a month later. As for "blanking", he removed my message from his talk page and it was only afterwards that I removed his message from mine. You will see he removed my message at 23.12, 7 April 2008 [109] and I removed his message from my Talk Page at 07.48, 8 April 2008 - the morning after. [110].

Look at his Talk Page User talk:Ultraviolet scissor flame/Archive 4 to see how many warnings he has received from other editors and how many photos, he uploaded, have been deleted from Wikipedia because of copyright violations. As there is no basis for his complaint against me, other than his hurt feelings, I hope you will dismiss this "incident". I hope you will tell him that if he is nice to others then others will be nice to him and if he is rude to others then others will be rude to him. That is how life is.

Vonita (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Other incidents have already been dealt with. Can a Wikipedia Admin just deal with this "incident", I have replied in great depth.


Vonita (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

(moved from section posted at end of page)

Can a Wikipedia Admin just deal with this please and close it ? Incidents, that were listed later, have already been dealt with and closed. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before. It is very stressful.

Vonita (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I will have a look and see what I can do. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have looked through, and am uncertain exactly what it is that you want "closed". Is it this section? If it is, then it appears that there is nothing to be done here and the section will be archived in due course. Adding a resolved box to the top, much like me responding here, simply means that the bot will archive it later rather than sooner. It may then be best to allow this to be archived, and we all move on. If it is another matter, I should be grateful if you could provide a link and/or diff so I (or others) can investigate further. Thanks. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Vonita, you still continue to use the word vandal. Ultra! 15:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So we've killed linux[edit]

Resolved: User was blocked indef for threatening to out users identities, article is undergoing AfD. I think this is settled. (1 == 2)Until 17:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Or a distribution at least. Zomg, hyperbole, i know. Check out, I noticed it when cleaning up a rather lengthy rant against wikipedia on the Myah OS article, and noticed that a few searches establish notability, but no references are cited and the editor/principal contributor to the article, who is also Myah's creator, states that he finds it absurd (or similiar, im quoting from memory) that he has to find other sources for things he knows. I'm going to spend a while fixing the article up, but as the notice on the site linked strikes me like the rant about wikipedia the guy had on some of his checkout pages last fall, thought I'd throw it up here. -Mask? 21:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Everytime you ask for a reliable source, a cute penguin logo cries. This OS seems barely notable, but I think it's worth an article. I'll pitch in. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Beta software that's no longer being developed? The Myah forum has 152 registered users. Dan Beale-Cocks 21:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
ehh, 32k hits for "Myah OS" -wikipedia plus some attention on XFCE's website make me think this might have a chance. -Mask? 21:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. It might be an idea to scrape as much as possible from the Google cache of the site if he really is halting development. OF the 48k G hits I got about 5.5k from the myah forum. I'm not a deletionist, but it does seem weird that a beta software (that doesn't seem to have any unique features) with 150 registered forum users gets an article when 20th century Olympic athletes get BALEETED. Dan Beale-Cocks 10:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
For further understanding, so to speak, if you haven't done, take a look at the self-identified developer's many comments (and 3rr block yesterday) on the article's and his talk pages. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Ahh, yes. I've just done that. Comments like (paraphrased) 'you quote a source that I wrote, for an old verion, and it's wrong, so stop using it' will make getting any kind of sensible article very hard. I've just put some friendly welcome text on the users talk page but I don't know if it'll make any difference at all. (There is that whole 'ECONOMIST - new editors quickly hit confusing policies' thing.) Dan Beale-Cocks 10:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes and I truly think he doesn't think it's worth understanding what we try to explain to him because he has a notion he'll edit the article as he thinks he "must," rather than through Wikipedia policies (he often characterizes Wikipedia as being run by "kids" who like pushing others around by posting "lies" about his OS and so on). Gwen Gale (talk) 11:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This summary looks pretty much accurate. Basically, the article created, then the creator of this distribution began editing it, and removing sourcing tags. This persisted for quite some time, with a slow-motion edit war over the unsourced statements and whether the current version was "outdated". At one point, he just gave up and began trying to get it deleted citing "harassment" and the fact that it contains false information. It seems borderline non-notable, and I lean toward deleting. --Haemo (talk) 21:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's borderline. I'm having a go, don't know how it will come out though. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, nifty little distro but scant evidence of any user base and the developer does seem to have been trying to use the article as a promotional tool. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"The Myah OS project has been halted due to continual harassment by wikipeda." Seriously? Even assuming that Wikipedia was capable of harassing a project, you've got problems if you can't stand criticism. I won't comment on the article itself, but the statement on the Myah OS web page makes the guy behind it look a little thin-skinned. --clpo13(talk) 08:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Jeremiah Cheatham[edit]

Meanwhile he's telling us all where to go and kinda threatening to reveal editor identities. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I think an indefinite block is needed for that. Threating to reveal identities is a strong concern for those here on en.wp. Rudget (review) 15:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh ya, for sure. In fact, in order to prevent the user from making good on his threat I have blocked him indef and protected his talk page. We can't tolerate that type of intimidation and potential instigation of harassment. (1 == 2)Until 16:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Chaldean and his anti syriacs campaign.[edit]

Hi, User:Chaldean keeps vandalize articles, that not suits him. For example: [of the Syriac people&diff=205380283&oldid=205380144]. He first blanked the page then he blanked it again after revert from admin HalfShadow . He runs an assyrian propaganda and thinks that all people are assyrians. the syriacs are an ethnic group with different history, langague, culture etc. The history of the syriac people is way different with the history of the assyrian people. he removes population numbers like this one [people&diff=205325810&oldid=205325601] beacuse he thinks that the source is not realiable. instead of that, he could just place a [citation needed] tag. he also removed in article Aramaic language links and informatoin who speaks the aramean language > [language&diff=205330081&oldid=205329537]. In the article the sentence were Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by numerous, scattered communities, most significantly by Assyrians, Syriacs, and Chaldeans. That sentence was written for a long time until Chaldean came with his assyrian propaganda and removed Syriacs, and Chaldeans from that sentence because it does not fit him. There are more syriacs than assyrians that talks the language neo aramaic, but user Chaldean does not care about that. He also made a threat against me, to bring in a person that could "blow up" the article Syriac people > [talk:VegardNorman&diff=next&oldid=205331812]. He thinks that all people are assyrians and chainging what the sources says. Look at this edit [Assyrians&diff=205334796&oldid=205334488]. The source said 18.500 assyrians. but user Chaldean thinks that also iraqi christians are assyrians. The iraqi christians is iraqis and christians, not assyrians. He also removed the "3RR" template in his discussion, maybe he wants to hide the proof that he are breaking the three-revert rule [talk:Chaldean&diff=205437126&oldid=205436313]. How can we stop this assyrian propaganda? VegardNorman (talk) 21:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin. I also have no interest in the subject matter at all; I was simply reverting an 'incorrect' edit (blanking the page as opposed to creating a redirect or whatever). HalfShadow (talk) 22:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
. the syriacs are an ethnic group with different history, langague, culture etc - right you claim this when you have admit at your own talk page that you are just starting to read on the subject. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac), we have agreed that Assyrian is the most common used refence in the English language to define this group. Chaldean (talk) 22:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
"In the article the sentence were Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by numeros, scattered communities, most significantly by Assyrians, Syriacs, and Chaldeans. That sentence was written for a long: - you added that in March. As agreed at the Wikipedia:Assyrian-Syriac wikipedia cooperation board, we will not drag politics in all other pages, except desribe the issue in the Assyrian naming dispute page. Chaldean (talk) 23:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
"Look at this edit 168. The source said 18.500 assyrians. but user Chaldean thinks that also iraqi christians are assyrians." - that is the general acceptance. 95% of Iraqi Christians are Assyrian, with 5% Armenian. Armenians declare Armenian in the census because they don't have a naming issue. "Iraqi Christian" is what some Chaldean Christians prefer instead of Assyrian, but that doesn't change their ethnicity. Chaldean (talk) 23:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
"" when you have admit at your own talk page that you are just starting to read on the subject "" .. no i did not say that, ive just started to read new books. i have read alot of books . "" we have agreed that Assyrian is the most common... "".. We? YOU are the only one that has agreed, not me or any other user like "the triz"," benne" etc. " that is the general acceptance. 95% of Iraqi Christians are Assyrian, ".. User:Chaldean, trust me i have ALOT of iraqi christian friends and NONE of them call them self for assyrian or that their are descnendats to assyrians. they are iraqis, not assyrian. that just prooves how much you want to assyrianiate everyone with your assyrian propaganda. VegardNorman (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the issue to WP:FT. Chaldean (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
For those looking ,here's the actual link Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Syriac_people_and_newly_created_pages_by_the_minute, with an entirely different presentation of the dispute. ThuranX (talk) 02:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
No the issue is not moved. The issue stays here because i have complaints on a user, not about an article. VegardNorman (talk) 09:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

{exdent for convenience] User:VegardNorman has attempted to enlist my interest in this matter on my talk page, which I think may fall under the rules about "trolling" to enlist support. At any rate, I have no interest in adjudicating this matter or even offering an opinion, which seems to be being handled by competent individuals having a rational discussion here and elsewhere. I have no idea why User:VegardNorman thought I might want to weigh in on this issue since it is entirely outside any area of competence I might possess and, to the best of my knowledge, I've never encountered any of the participants before. Good luck with resolving this issue and, if there's anything within my limited realm of competence with which I can assist, let me know. Accounting4Taste:talk 14:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Since no admin answered on this issue i contacted an administrator. I checked the list for administrators and just picked out you. Im not in any interest that you join my "side". VegardNorman (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I recognize that to be the case. You may wish to look at the Wikipedia policy at Wikipedia:Canvassing for future reference, although I don't suggest you have infringed it. Thanks for your clarification. Accounting4Taste:talk 17:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Kurtlockwood[edit]


Not 100% sure this is the correct place but, the above user has committed an abuse of WP:Civil on another user's talk page. I went to his talk page to place a gentle warning and found the page protected so, am bringing it here. Thanks Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Try WP:WQA. That is the appropriate place to bring civility concerns. 11:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Will take it there now. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Persistent vandals, 14 april 2008[edit]


Two IP only account names I've tracked down: User: User:

Both need blocking. Thanks. Sojourner001 (talk) 14:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The one you listed (twice) has been blocked. Thanks for pointing out the problem! Next time, WP:AIV is a better place for this. Tan | 39 15:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


Hello to everyone! I want to tell you one case of vandalism [[111]]. The user Niko Silver is vandalizing my page and my staffs. Since it is a user page he is not allowed to delete my staffs. Please can you block him or warn him somehow. Thanks --MacedonianBoy (talk) 11:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You might try asking this user about why he removed your userboxes first - we generally don't block users for a single edit, and he appeared to feel there was some reason those boxes wouldn't be allowed, judging by his edit summary. Usually discussion is preferred to administrative action. Hersfold (t/a/c) 12:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I see at least one userbox that might be considered extremely offensive --"I don't believe in Greek culture or Civilization". Admittedly, I'm not sure what this is in reference to or its basis in political beliefs. Macedonia, I suggest you read this guideline on innapropriate content for userpages. It might be best to remove such a userbox as many might be offended. Gwynand | TalkContribs 12:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyhow he cannot remove it just like that. Typical vandalism. MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, assuming it is not considered "extremely offensive material", then yes, you are right, he shouldn't have removed it (although he may have been extremely offended by it). I would suggest you personally remove that userbox from your page. If he continues to edit your user space after that then of course he may be blocked. Agreed? Gwynand | TalkContribs 13:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
He's obviously not the only user to be offended. User:Black Kite removed the aforementioned box recently, the most recent edit to the page (currently). George D. Watson (Dendodge).TalkHelp 19:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Black kite likely saw this thread here and removed it, but that was after my edit. I'm not sure if MacedoniaBoy is attempting to defend the use of such a box, but rather another editor removing it without his permission. Maybe this can be marked as resolved, I don't see any continuing dispute here. Gwynand | TalkContribs 19:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


Please look at this and then this; I am concerned that I am now going to be bad-mouthed off-wiki, and that the points I raised in the first diff are being over-trodden. Any thoughts (preferably about this issue rather than the topics referenced in the diffs)? TreasuryTagtc 15:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This one was my mistake; I saw an editor being (in my opinion) harrassed. I wrote a suggestion for him on his talk page, to prevent him from being sucked into a fight, but decided it would be wiser to email instead. However, I cleverly saved it to the talk page instead of the email by accident. I deleted it about 10 seconds later, but too late. I stand by my opinion, but regret that I posted it on the talk page. --barneca (talk) 15:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm still upset that if you have concerns, you didn't raise them with me or the community, but instead privately communicated them to a user with whom you don't seem to have ever interacted before. So there's now going to be some off-wiki chat about me which isn't going to serve Wikipedia at all. As I said, there are processes for complaining about users' behaviour, and messaging another isn't one of them. TreasuryTagtc 15:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
So now we're going to try to regulate the off-Wiki behavior and actions of users? Tan | 39 15:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I can see how Barneca may have just wanted to advise the user directly involved with you and not get drawn into it himself. You can't force someone to discuss anything with you if they don't want to. --Kbdank71 15:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything untowards here. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

My point was that if Barneca had the interests of Wikipedia at heart, s/he would utilise dispute resolution. But if, as I fear, s/he doesn't, then that is a matter that needs attention. Wikipedia is not served by underhand tactics, and is served by open public discussion. TreasuryTagtc 16:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Barneca uses underhand tactics in his day to day business on WP. Check out User talk:Dark3345. I believe this account may have been created as a clone by Barneca to try and dig a grave for David and Sammy, 2 of the most outspoken critics of Barneca's admin sytle, but by no means the only critics, there are hundreds of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
If Barneca created the account, why did he block it? George D. Watson (Dendodge).TalkHelp 19:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC) (talk · contribs) blocked[edit]

The above IP address has just been blocked for vandalism. I'm reporting it here as it's registered to the State of Nebraska. While it's not a "sensitive IP", per WP:SIP, I'm still reporting it here and to the Foundation just in case. Hersfold (t/a/c) 16:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It's just a school IP, part of NEK12NET, Nebraska's public school network. Kww (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I've tagged it with sharedIPedu instead of the standard sharedIP template to make it clearer. George D. Watson (Dendodge).TalkHelp 19:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh. Funny, so what's the "Office of the CIO" stuff about, then? Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

strange soapbox/coatracky disruption[edit]

I brought this to the attention of the BLP noticeboard earlier, but as there has been no feedback from there, and the issue has escalated somewhat, here goes.

An anon has been trying to use the George Weigel article as a soapbox, in particular, as a coatrack for their opinion of the Iraq war. Following the history of the article and talkpage should make that apparent; I have provided a more detailed timeline below.

Without editwarring, I would like to be able to do something about the article. I encourage the appropriate attention to the page, the anons, or both, and certainly will not disregard any constructive suggestions as to how I could have handled the situation better. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC) I have not notified User:J.delanoy of this discussion to avoid the appearance of canvassing, but I would think it appropriate to do so, if someone else decides to. The latest IP has been notified, indeed warned. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

If they're anons, would semi-protection suffice? George D. Watson (Dendodge).TalkHelp 19:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It would certainly be sufficient, however it might be a little strong, as apparently unrelated IPs have made constructive edits (for example) during this silliness. However, if the community deems it appropriate per discussion here or elsewhere, so be it. I note that other uninvolved established users have already dropped by to help maintain the article, so this discussion is helping. Thanks. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 19:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Admin assistance requested at anon's talkpage[edit]

At User_talk:, the anon keeps blanking the IP banner from the page which identifies a host of other IP addresses that contain pertinent usertalk complaints. Other editors have added it back, but he's well past 3RR (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, [] and notified of 3RR vio here) at this point.

The user (essentially an SPA in the Fitna and related articles) refuses to create an account and the numerous accounts, each contain edit histories of escalating incivility, towards both myself (1 2, 3 4) and others (1, 2). As the anon switches between IPs, the edit history is lost, as well as any complaints voiced on the anon usertalk page. I attempted to add an IP banner in three of the IPs that have sprung up over the past day or so. The 3RR is the anon attempting to remove the banner (which cannot be removed).
Please help. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This is my solution to the question of an ip removing the header and ip ident - and I don't mind if any other admin executes it. I would just remind whomever not to allow cascading protection, as the subpage will be caught (I think - best be safe anyway!) Cheers. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This user has already formally charged me with "Ongoing, serious pattern vandalism involving dozens of incidents" and "3RR violation using socks" his charge was baseless and without any evidence he is MORE THAN WELL AWARE THAT THIS IS ONE USER AND HAS BEEN TOLD THIS.[112] This user is manipulating the system to use as a weapon against another user. (talk) 21:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It's possible. Still, you oughtn't to remove the banner from your talkpage. TreasuryTagtc 21:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The banner was placed there by Arcayne - I initially resented having him follow me around Wiki reverting me and undercutting me at his every opportunity. I am not comfortable with this obsession he appears to have with me.

It was not a formal banner - Arcayne took it upon himself to place it there. He then gathered up all his comments about me and added those. Those comments I read and left in the "History", it was those edits I objected to - Arcayne was simply colonizing my user page and edited it as he saw fit - and then reverting any changes I made to my own user page. (talk) 21:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

  • It is a one use banner, and one appropriate to identify the differing ip's from the same range that are editing the same article so that contrib histories can be compared. As such it benefits the discussion and there should be consensus if it were to be removed. I agree that it is appropriate for the purpose, and would not wish to see it removed presently. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Several of my edits retained the banner and simply dropped Arcaynes conquest of my user page in the history - additionally this not only stopped but was discussed hours ago when the first neutral third party stepped in. It was a dead issue that lasted 5 minutes and occurred on my personal talk page.. (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I can see, your accusations that Arcayne "colonized" and "conquered" your userpage are unfounded. As far as I can tell, he legitimately added warnings to your page. As you said, there could be numerous editors at this address. If you are worried about misdirected warnings, create an account. With regard to the banner on top, there is absolutely no reason that it should be removed. It is there to enable administrators to contact the owner of the IP address to report abuse. It also serves as a warning to potential problem editors, stating that is possible to trace their contributions, so they may want to be careful what they do. J.delanoygabsadds 22:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I misunderstood what you were talking about, but my opinion remains the same. There is no reason to remove the banner, as it could be useful if a range block ever became necessary. J.delanoygabsadds 22:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Pointing out that I did added instances of the behavioral issues after the initial posting. and that I wasn't trying to populate the anon's usertalk page with my posts (others had complained there as well). I would submit that the behavioral problems exhibited by the anon are far from a dead issue - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Repeated addition of copyright violation in Abbas Kiarostami article[edit]

User:BehnamFarid added youtube link to Abbas Kiarostami which i felt was copyright violation. I reverted it (see diff but he added it back. The issue was raised at talk page where i elaborated WP:COPYRIGHT#Linking to copyrighted works but Behnam is in no mood to listen. 1, 2 and 3 and the respective edit summaries smack of personal attack. I posted a query abt this at Wikipedia:MCQ#Youtube_link_to_a_video_in_Abbas_Kiarostami and the response was to delete it. His message on MECU's talk page states that I "suffer from the mental ailment of intolerance" and that I "may be a fundamentalist", which i feel is a personal attack on me. I posted a warning message on Behnam's talk page which he deleted (see this. Finally the discussions at my talk page, MECU's talk page, article talk page will show that Behnam doesnt seem to be constructive editor and despite my repeated explanations of wikipedia policies on article talk page, he is indulging in personal attacks and addition of youtube link in a Featured article. I request and admin to look into this and take necessary action against User:BehnamFarid....thanx...Gprince007 (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

In the course of the past two days User:Gprince007 has been pursuing an utterly senseless undertaking with obsession, the like of which I have rarely, if at all, witnessed elsewhere. Regarding the things that I have already written on this issue, I refer the interested reader to (1), (2), and (3).
I draw attention to User:Gprince007's explicit statement in the above text: "which i felt was copyright violation" (note the word "felt"). It appears therefore that User:Gprince007 takes action on the basis of what s/he feels, and not of demonstrable facts. S/he has been a cause for nuisance despite my repeated requests that s/he communicate her/his concerns with YouTube. Evidently, since the material to which I had linked is located on YouTube, which is a reputable site, and by no means uploaded to Wikipedia, either by me or by any other person known to me, it is not my responsibility to take action on account of the feelings of some individual, in particular when that individual turns out to be an obsessive one.
I feel compelled to mention that yesterday User:Gprince007 deleted my singed comment on the talk page of the entry on Abbas Kiarostami on account of my comment containing original research material and that, according to some Wikipedia guideline, no such talks were permitted on Wikipedia. The available evidence will unequivocally prove that my language became abrasive (and I do not regret that) when User:Gprince007 proved to stop at nothing; someone who feels entitled to remove someone else's intellectual contribution to a talk page, on account of the dubious argument that the text contained original research material, is to my best understanding a bigoted person. I admit that it is painful to be told that one is bigoted, but I strongly believe that at least sometimes calling a spade a spade is one's moral responsibility; one simply cannot be so hypocrite as giving a person like User:Gprince007 the false impression that her/his doings on Wikipedia were alright. S/he must be made to understand that there are limits, also on Wikipedia; one cannot continue acting on one's impulses and expect that people will keep their heads down. If User:Gprince007 expected differently, it goes a long way to showing that this person's contact with the real world is either non-existent or at best very tenuous.
One last point. It appears that User:Gprince007 not only is impulsive, but has a strange relationship with truth. By reading the contents of the talk page of Kiarostami's entry, one will realise that the above statement by User:Gprince007, that "and the response was to delete it" is an outright lie. All individuals, with the exception of one (see later), voted for maintaining the link. The exception is User:Hux. Two comments are in order. Firstly, User:Hux came in after User:Gprince007 had deleted the YouTube link already for a number of times (as can be verified, Hux's comment dates from yesterday night, just before 9 O'clock). It follows that User:Gprince007 had been carrying out with her/his nuisance during the time that all people involved had been against her/his actions. Secondly, reading Hux's comment, one will realise that Hux had been unduly influenced by the false assertion of User:Gprince007's that the video at issue violated copyright laws. As should be evident, to this date User:Gprince007 has failed to clarify where her/his assertion is based on; we now know for certain that s/he only feels that something were amiss with the copyright of the video at issue. I rest my case here. --BF 21:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
ps) One last thing concerning the charge that I deleted a specific message placed on my talk page. Any person who has ever visited my talk page will testify that I never keep a message on my talk page that no longer is in need of responding to; I consider my talk page as a kind of desk, and thus keep it clean at all times. The accusation that I might have deleted User:Gprince007's message on my talk page for some specific reason bearing on User:Gprince007 has therefore no relevance here. It can be easily verified that I deleted the message in question after having responded to it. --BF 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Your case fails. That youtube account has 410 videos of different tv clips from different channels. It is absolutely clear that this is a copyright violation. On Wikipedia, linking to copyright violation is your responsibility, not youtube's. This is not my opinion, this is policy, and you have been furnished with it. Stop being dishonest. (talk) 22:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it would seem your case fails - A search of Wiki policy concerning YouTube shows no blanket ban or any policy stating that if falls upon the Wiki editor to verify copyright on YouTube (which can be found here) YouTube has a policy in place for anyone with a complaint regarding material they hold the copyright to. At which point whomever posted the video is liable.SteveCoppock (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
If you believe that I am acting dishonestly, which you are entitled to, then it must reflect something of your inner being, for I have not been acting dishonestly. I do not know where the number "410" comes from for instance. I have only known one version on YouTube of the video at issue and that had already been viewed by more than 4000 viewers (I am entirely unaware whether this video is to be seen elsewhere; I only know of one version, to which I have made a link, on the official YouTube website in the USA). To my best knowledge, something that is illegal never gets as far as of the order of 100 views before it is taken down. You owe me therefore an apology for accusing me of being guilty of something that I could not have been. Further, you have badly failed to give attention to what I have been telling: I have repeatedly told, and politely, to Gprince007 that s/he should address her/his concerns to YouTube rather than acting like a police on behalf of others; I have never condoned use of material here or elsewhere whose use violated copyright laws. --BF 22:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
ps) Oh, now I understand the significance of that number. Well, that may be the case, however if the person uploading the video at issue is guilty of violation of copyright laws on such a massive scale (as you seem to be suggesting), then how comes that her/his membership of YouTube is tolerated? Why does YouTube allow this person to carry on with what you suggest to amount to illegal activities on a massive scale? If you are so certain of your case, why don't you write to YouTube? But I am digressing, the relevant fact is that Gprince007 has never given any reason why s/he thinks that the video should be illegal; s/he has even not once made mention of that number "410". --BF 22:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, proof the video is a copyright violation? The opening credits name Farabi Cinema Foundation as the production company. Unless Farabi has a habbit of publishing on YouTube, which I highly doubt, it's a copyright violation. And all this about YouTube dealing with copyright violations, or whose responsibility anything's all utterly irrelevant. Articles do not include links to copyright violations. Anyone who knowingly places such a link is in violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Your statement does not hold water. It is predicated on the assumption "Unless Farabi ...". You have not shown that they do not do. Since the quality of the video is inferior, releasing it on YouTube might actually boost the sales of its high-quality version, or attract more people to movie theatres showing the film. But of course, I am only speculating. --BF 23:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you are speculating, and dangerously so. This is all for the same reason we don't give image uploaders the benefit of the doubt when they upload demonstrably copyrighted images; we actually have a Foundation-established method the uploaders must use to prove they are not in violation of the copyright. Just the same, we don't link to copyrighted information unless there is reasonable proof the host is not violating the copyright. This is usually established naturally as the host is usually the original publisher; when that host is, instead, YouTube, and the upload was made by some random person with a YouTube account, we assume he is in violation of the copyright. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I dislike dramatic language as substitute for reasoning. What was so "dangerous" about my "speculation"? How many lives were lost, and how many people became homeless through my "speculation", one might wonder. As it happens, none. Also I dislike your use of "we", as if I were an outsider and intent on abuse; I am as much part of Wikipedia as you may believe you are. Using my own words and turning them against me, is another conspicuous aspect of your text. May I therefore request you kindly to remain neutral and to the point? The point I made, and you did not shine any light on with so many words, was that in a discussion such as the present one, one cannot predicate a statement on issues that are not a priori true. Otherwise, by making an argument long enough, one can prove everything and disprove everything. Sophistry is the name of this game. --BF 01:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
You're missing the issue, BF. Someguy put it better than I could ... we can't assume good faith on copyright, for good reason. Blueboy96 01:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
You are also using that detested word "we". May I respectfully ask who you think you are and who you think I am? Further, as testified by all that I have written on the present issue, I have never advocated use of illegal material, not here on Wikipedia, not anywhere! The issue under discussion consists of one thing, namely: Has Gprince007 been justified in deleting a link made by me to a video hosted by YouTube prior to ascertaining that the video at issue were illegal? My answer to this question has been and remains to be NO! I cannot act on the mere suspicion of an individual; as should be evident, to this very moment the only thing that we know for certain is that Gprince007 had only felt the video to be illegal. This cannot be a cause for action, especially when I have repeatedly asked Gprince007 to write about her/his concerns to YouTube. If you, i.e. all of you who have made a habit of calling yourselves "we", cannot assume good faith, that is your problem; insofar as I am concerned, YouTube is run by a reputed organisation and I have not the slightest reason to believe that they may be acting against law. When, if at all, they unplug the video at issue, I will also remove the Wikipedia link to that video. If you wish to accuse YouTube and thus Google of dishonesty, then please put that in writing, and I shall pass the document to them for consideration. Please ask yourself the following question: will I be able and willing to testify against Google and Youtube under oath in a court of law? If the answer to this question is in the negative, then your present accusations legally amount to libel, for which you can be sued. --BF 03:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
If only an excerpt of that film was posted, it could be claimed under fair use (someone correct me if I'm wrong). As it presumably includes the whole film, it's a copyright violation. Even linking to works that violate copyright could expose the Wikimedia Foundation to serious legal danger. If you continue to post this link, you will be blocked. Blueboy96 04:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Why this threatening language? My link has been to a site registered in the USA and one that is not known for illegal activities. In other words, I cannot be held responsible when the link made is not to an illegal site. Or are you suggesting that you will take action against me on account of a material offered by YouTube?! Why don't you address the problem to YouTube itself which has made the video clip available? As I have said elsewhere, when I made the link, the video had already been viewed by more than 4000 viewers; to my experience, illegal videos never reach above 100 viewings before they are taken down. You also seem to disregard the fact that I have repeatedly asked Gprince007 that he report the issue to YouTube, yet I never received a word from him why he felt the video were illegal. You further disregard the opinion of the people who initially voted for keeping the link intact (consult the talk page, and you will see that they overwhelmingly were in support of the link --- incidentally, the talk on this subject matter was not even initiated by me); the only opposing view came in yesterday night, just before 9 O'clock (all of these details are already mentioned above). --BF 04:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There are certain instances where consensus has to be trumped. Copyright is one of them. If you don't understand that by now ... Blueboy96 04:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Then put a blanket ban on YouTube and save all of us the trouble. Also could you consider to be more respectful when addressing others? What is "If you don't understand ...", if not hubris? --BF 04:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Someone at YouTube may or may not have deemed the video is viewable there under circumstances which do not put YouTube itself at risk for copyright violation, but the uploader still could be liable. Either way, copyright status (or exemption) can't be inferred by the presence of a video on YouTube. Even so, the pith is that without a clear path to either a copy authorized by the copyright holder, fair use or public domain, WP:COPYRIGHT#Linking to copyrighted works clearly does not allow linking to content, since doing this could be taken as contributory infringement. Hence this link can't be lobbied for at all, it could be (and likely is) a copyvio and must be gone. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Not only that, but if this were just an excerpt, fair use could be claimed. But since BF clearly stated in the provided diff that this was the entire film, it has no place here. Blueboy96 05:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Watching the above heated debates taking place, i feel my stand has been vindicated. BehnamFarid keeps telling me to take this issue with youtube. Well Behnam...the thing is i am a wikipedia editor and my loyalties lie with wikipedia. It is a wikipedia policy to not to link to copyrighted works and i am just ensuring that it is enforced. If tommorrow there are 1000 sites posting copyrighted works illegally and some editor links to them in an wikipedia article, do u expect people to write letters and send notices to those 1000 websites??....No, they'll just remove the links at our end (ie in wikipedia article). If youtube or any other website carries copyright violation, they may or may not take action, but we shd make sure that we at our end dont be a party to this crime by linking to it. You seem to be a fan of Kiarostami's works but u dont realise that by posting a link to the video, u a harming his interests in more ways than one. Many movies are available on internet in violation of copyright laws and what if everybody links to those works in their respective wikipedia article??? the purpose of copyright will be defeated and it would fail to serve it purpose. In view of the above discussions, i hope u will see reason and desist from personal attacks and stop linking to copyrighted works.... Thanks Gprince007 (talk) 07:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Gprince007, you are using hyperbole. I did not link to an illegal site (call YouTube an illegal site frequently enough, and you are likely to be sued for libel), and certainly not to 1000 of them, and you never said, neither here nor in our earlier communications leading to the present public discussion, why you felt that the video were in violation of copyright laws. A number of things. The video shows some digital clock in the lower part of the frame, suggesting that it is most likely a recording of a television broadcasting in Iran (the numerals are in Farsi script). Both television and Farabi Film Foundation are owned by the public in Iran; they get their budget for 100% from the treasury. It may be, and I don't know it for certain, that the mere fact that the film has been shown on Iranian Television, has made it public property (this logic does not apply to, for instance, BBC, since despite being a public broadcasting company, it is financed by the fees paid by individuals). The scenario would be that Kiarostami and his associates have been commissioned by Farabi Film Foundation to make this film, and have received a certain amount for the commission and thus transferred their copyrights to Farabi Film Foundation. The latter being fully financed by the public, the work now legally belongs to the public. A case in point is the National Portrait Gallery of the United Kingdom. Sometimes ago I was negotiating with them for getting one of their photographs transferred to Wikipedia. What they told me was that although they are a national institution, since (and this is the most relevant aspect) they had to earn part of their running costs from leasing photographs to the rest of the world, they were not in a position to permit use of their photographs on Wikipedia (although they wrote me that they were in serious negotiations with Wikipedia for arriving at a mutually acceptable agreement, since they were regularly receiving similar requests as mine). This shows that if National Portrait Gallery were fully financed by the state, the photographs in their collection belonged to the public. As I said, to my best knowledge Farabi Film Foundation is fully financed by the Iranian state (the foundation is one of the things that the reformist president Mr Khatami bequeathed to the nation) so that even if the video were on YouTube without a written declaration of consent on the part of Farabi Film Foundation, in principle its exposure on YouTube does not constitute an illegal act. I see this as a possible reason for the video having stayed on YouTube for so long. A somewhat related point, insofar as I am aware, copyright laws in Iran are far more relaxed than in the West; for instance, in the West (at least in the USA) a photograph becomes public property 100 years after its publication; in Iran the period is just 30 years.
All the above contributors have merely speculated as to the suitability of linking the video to Wikipedia, and all on the conservative side; they all seem to wish to err on the safe side. Therefore my original suggestion that you write to YouTube remains, even though I shall no longer insist on the link. One should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. You talk about your loyalties to Wikipedia, but why should you not be loyal to the best interests of the humanity? As I wrote extensively about on Kiarostami's talk page, the video at issue contains almost all aspects of Kiarostami's creations in a way that only those who know the cultural background within which the work has been created can fully appreciate. As someone who knows this cultural background, I saw it as part of my loyalty to humanity (not to Wikipedia which is but a medium) to tell the rest of the world of the hidden treasures inside that short video; what I wrote on the video was only a fraction of what is contained in it. In my opinion (and this is very personal), cutting out that video link can be likened with aborting an unborn child on account of the possibility that that child might become a criminal later in life. In the case at hand, no one has thus far come with a convincing argument why the video on YouTube were illegal. You may feel vindicated, but to my best judgement, your apparent vindication will be at a cultural expense. I invested a great deal of effort in this enterprise just for salvaging a most valuable addition to the Wikipedia entry of Kiarostami. I stop here. --BF 15:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Removing messages from talkpage is unacceptable if there is no harm or intent towards anyone. As I understand it, Youtube itself is responsible for removing copy-righted material. So unless it is proven that youtube's video is violating copyright (by contacting them), then I do not think it is valid to remove it from Wikipedia. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, that's not acceptable. There are all sorts of sites that contain copyright violations. We do not link to them. Period. We do not wait for the site we link to to see the error of their ways and remove the copyright violations for us. We do not link to copyright violations. Period. Corvus cornixtalk 21:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
You may be on the wrong page; the discussion here is not about "all sorts of sites", but about one specific site, namely YouTube. --BF 23:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with User:BehnamFarid. The issue is just one site who by its nature checks against copyright violation. If the youtube video is copyrighted, then it is their job to remove it. But the video has remained for more than a year. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if we're talking about YouTube in particular. Wikipedia cannot rely on an outside site to manage copyright violations. Wikipedia must assume good faith, and that there has been an explicit release of copyright. Unless the person who uploaded the video that is being linked to has an explicit release of copyright from the copyright holder, and has displayed that explicit release on their Youtube upload page (the image page), we must assume that the image is copyrighted and that the upload is a copyright violation. Corvus cornixtalk 17:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I would persume by your statement: "Wikipedia must assume good faith" that it is the other way around. We should assume good faith with regards to the fact that the video is posted on a site that takes copyright violations into consideration. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Whatever. If I encounter links to YouTube, I remove them, and I expect them to remain removed until such time as the person providing the link proves that the person who uploaded the video to YouTube had permission to do so from the copyright holder. Any edit warring over the link should lead to the person adding it to be blocked until they acknowledge that Wikipedia doesn't play around with copyright violations. Corvus cornixtalk 20:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Corvus is pretty much correct here. There is no blanket ban, per se, on Youtube links. However, the only allowed links would be those that document a release of copyright. Assume good faith merely requires that we assume that the person posting the links didn't know that they were violating policy (if this was the first occurrence), and warn them from doing it again. --Bfigura (talk) 20:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Well I don't think threatening blocks is the correct action. Probably a discussion on the actual video is merited. I think it depends on the site. If the site deletes copyrighted material, then I do not think it is the responsibility of the user in Wikipedia to worry about that site. Afterall, they are not viewing the video in Wikipedia. I could understand it if the video or image was uploaded to Wikipedia and was viewed within Wikipedia from Wikipedia. But if it is just an external link to a site whose responsibility is to insure free material, then we should WP:AGF. Basically the approach being suggested is "Guilty until proven innocent" whereas it should be "Innocent till proven guilty". --alidoostzadeh (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I think Material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked. Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to material that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. This is particularly relevant when linking to sites such as YouTube, where due care should be taken to avoid linking to material that violates its creator's copyright. is pretty clear. Corvus cornixtalk 22:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
From what I gather, it says: "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Correct me if I am wrong, but it does not say if you guess. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 22:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
<-undent: There is no need to repeat the arguments ad nauseum. Links to copyright violations will be removed. If they are restored, the person doing the restoring will be blocked. End of discussion. Corvus cornixtalk 23:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Phone number in article[edit]

A recent edit added a person's name and telephone number into an article (not a notable person or wikipedia user that I am aware of - or any connection with the article). I have reverted but should the revision be deleted? --Snigbrook (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:OVERSIGHT -MBK004 17:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Not really, if its not specified who it belongs to, or is incorrect. Rudget (review) 17:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
In this case, I would request oversight. Rudget (review) 17:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I requested oversight, and the edit has now been removed. --Snigbrook (talk) 23:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It is specified who it belongs to; there's no real reason not to oversight it, is there? TreasuryTagtc 17:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Is oversight necessary? I would imagine deleting the revision would suffice for this sort of thing. Neıl 18:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This is basically what oversight exists for, not to mention that it is much easier to use oversight for this than regular deletion. Mr.Z-man 18:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec) It has, in fact, been our general practice to suggest that oversight be requested for revisions that reveal a telephone number, especially those that mean to associate a name with that number, consistent with the first of the two reasons for oversight enumerated at RFO. I continue to fail to understand why revision deletion does not suffice for situations like this—oversight is, IMHO, grossly overused (and almost certainly need not to exist at all), although that overuse is not particularly problematic as regards the removal of personal information—but that ship seems to have sailed. Joe 18:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism at The Used and The Used discography[edit]

The following users (also suspected sockpuppets) User:USEDfan and User:Booowooo are persistently reverting appropriate edits to the above pages. Please excuse the lack of diffs, there are so many. A simple check of the history of both users shows they refuse to discuss their changes. Could we get a temporary ban until they cool down, maybe they will then engage in discussion then....Nouse4aname (talk) 19:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So far two are blocked. The only question is whether Booowooo ought to be blocked as well. I'm conflicted based on the article history.--chaser - t 19:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC) All blocked, including Nouse4aname.--chaser - t 19:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice if I could understand USEDfan and Booowooo's edit summaries and comments. Their English comprehension is downright awful. seicer | talk | contribs 19:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Nouse4aname has been unblocked. Corvus cornixtalk 20:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, this is an interesting edit summary. Corvus cornixtalk 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I can glean enough out of that to say it was meant to be nettlesome. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Extra helpings of Crazy in the Fitna article[edit]

Resolved: Protection request filed TreasuryTagtc 21:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I am requesting admin attention at Talk:Fitna (film). We have a controversial topic there, and several anon accounts have been jumping in with uncivil comments. This is leading to a Wild West atmosphere amongst the other editors, and some edit-warring has been occurring. I think that the anons are all the same person but I'm not sure. Whoever they are though, the rudeness is not helping us to reach consensus. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This user is attempting to use the system to harm another user - I may be the only anonymous account in the discussion and this user is well aware of this. Please ask the user Arcayne to post "Diffs" to support his accusation. Arcayne has prviously filed formal charges against me accusing me of "Ongoing, serious pattern vandalism involving dozens of incidents" and "3RR violation using socks". without a single "Diff" cited. There is no basis to support his allegations. [113] — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
With respect, you were but part of the problem, anon. Here I asked for some eyes on the article, as other editors are getting a bit too revert-y in the article page. Some of the calming influence of an admin might settle folk down there.
The diffs you requested are below, in the complaint concerning you. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick action. The article is now dispute-locked, which will bring folk to the table, so to speak. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, in point of fact - The article has been semi-protected for several day's now. Your charge is baseless and false - NO Anon has edited the article for several days. (talk) 22:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
My apologies for not spelling it out clearer, anon. The hostile environment fostered in the article discussion page led to the revert war in the article. Please do not pretend that you didn't enlist folk to make edits on your behalf (1 2). The article is protected now from anyone making changes until we have some agreement. Be happy with that. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not "Enlist Folk" - Is there no end to this McCarthyism? An edit was made per the clear instruction of the Reliable Source Notice Board - It was specifically stated by them to use the Credits in the InfoBox - it was on that basis that the change was made. (talk) 23:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is the exact quote:

The answer stays the same. The film credits are a perfectly acceptable source for film articles, and should be the preferred source for listing in the infobox.

Clear, concise, reasonable. (talk) 23:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Suspected Sockpuppetry[edit]

Resolved: No case of sockpuppetry per RFCU ;seicer | talk | contribs 04:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

On 22 January 2007 at 23:38, SqueakBox (talk · contribs) (who has a history of socking; see 10:37, 22 August 2006 block) was blocked for one week.