Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive405

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STBot and unicode[edit]

Per where STBot notified me about NFCC problem with Image:50 öre SEK.png. It seems that the bot isn't working fully with unicode filenames. Question is if the bot should be blocked or not. AzaToth 18:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Get the right bot, first! It's User:STBotI (one of four bots operated by User:ST47 - User:STBot, User:STBotD (deprecated), User:STBotI, and User:STBotT). This one ('I' for image, presumably) says it "operates under the functions of Operation Enduring Encyclopedia" - someone save us from bad American patriot puns! :-) As for blocking, surely you can ask User:ST47 to undo it's bad tags? Carcharoth (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Obviously something to fix, but looking at STBotI's contribs this doesn't seem to be coming up very often and we're probably best-off leaving it running until there's a bigger problem. Just my two cents. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

JzG's recent deletions[edit]

JzG has gone through and deleted a large number of subpages in other peoples userspace under the heading "G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup". The problem being that he 1. failed to notify the pages authors of the deletions in any way shape or form or even ask them if they wanted to keep the pages and 2. speedy deleted them, circumventing the MfD process used for this kind of deletion and completely misapplied "non controversial housekeeping" which is actually "Housekeeping. Non-controversial maintenance, such as temporarily deleting a page to merge page histories, or performing uncontroversial page moves." - to include deleting someones subpages under this heading has stretched the term "non-controversial housekeeping" to beyond breaking point. To make matters worse, he then proceeded to refuse to overturn such deletions [1][2]. And accused me of wheel warring when I complied with a very reasonable request from one of the editors to have his page back [3]. Now I am apparently banned from his talk page so someone else might like to go and point out the deletion policy again. ViridaeTalk 10:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you reverse his deletion without discussion with him BEFORE? Don't do that. There's seldom a rush to undelete, and if you disagree it is better to get a consensus of admins than to start wheel warring.--Docg 10:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
What the hell? He had alrady shown himself unwilling to overturn his supposedly uncpontroversial deletions (clearly not by the way) at the request of the authors. So why the hell shouldnt I undelete a userpsace copy of an uncontroversial article on author request when they have been improperly deleted? ViridaeTalk 11:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Whether something is "improperly deleted" is always something to discuss. If we all just undeleted anything we thought "improperly deleted" then we might as well wind up WP:DRV now. That's not the way we work. Always discuss BEFORE jumping in with tools (unless there's urgency). You can't complain that JzG unilaterally used tools without discussion, and then do the same yourself. Two wrongs don't make a right.--Docg 11:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No way can you be considered uninvolved. It would be extremely inappropriate for you to undo any of Guys actions without having a consensus behind you and frankly we have enough admins that you shouldn't get involved. DRV is thataway... Spartaz Humbug! 11:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually there was discussion - see WP:AN where there is consensus that there is no reason for pages sismilar to that one Guy has complained about to be deleted. I like how Guy suddenly has carte blanche to flout the CSD policy, claiming clearly controversial deletions are uncontroversial housekeeping, stonewall those people who complain about such deletions and refuse to undo them at the authors request (which, if they were uncontroversial would be the obvious thing to do...) ViridaeTalk 11:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
You of all people are not qualified to judge a consensus on an admin action of Guy's. I get the impression that the only views you judge significant are the anti brigade. This was a shocking decision. For someone as wedded to doing the right thing as you purport to be I'm amazed that you didn't do the right thing here and take it to DRV. Be warned your own behaviour is as disruptive as you claim Guy's to have been and righting wrongs can cut both ways. I strongly advise you to completely avoid using your admin tools in any issue even tangentially related to Guy. You can't say you haven't been warned if you wheelwar again and we know how the arbcom voiew wheelwarring don't we! Spartaz Humbug! 11:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
First and foremost, it is wholly unacceptable to reverse the admin actions of another administrator with whom you are in long-standing dispute. Wholly, utterly, completely, unambiguously wrong. Never ever do that again, please. Second, you undeleted one of these pages without giving me time to discuss it with the user at all, which is doubly unacceptable. Third, you have not looked at the overall context. Most of these pages were userspace copies of articles made while the articles themselves were protected, and have been edited a handful of times at most. The main editor on most of them is maintenance bots. Removing something that's been moved to userspace and forgotten, is not controversial. What is controversial is maintaining POV-forks in userspace, which some of these editors were doing, but that's another matter. I found I think six separate copies of human with varying numbers of edits serving different POVs; long experience indicates that POV-forking an article into userspace is an atrocious way of handling a content dispute.
I am staggered by your chutzpah, coming here and drawing attention tot he fact that you are reversing the deletion of abandoned POV-forks by an admin with whom you are in dispute, while those deletions are already being debated in another venue with uninvolved admins looking on. I am now making a formal request, as I have made several informal ones: unwatch my talk page, never post there again, never revert another of my admin actions. You have declared an agenda against me, and your continued harassment is not appreciated. Guy (Help!) 11:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Stop flouting policy and you wont hear a peep from me Guy... ViridaeTalk 11:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, what declared vendetta against you Guy? Oh and why are you objecting so loudly to me overturning a deletion you marked as "non-controversial housekeeping" - if its so non-controversial, surely when the author requests it back you should give it to them asap... ViridaeTalk 11:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Viridae, there are means for you to pursue any complaints against Guy. Do not use your tools in a dispute. If there's a pressing need for things to be undone without DRV, there are plenty of others to do it. If you continue down this line, desysopping is the likely outcome.--Docg 11:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
There is also a pressing need to placate those who have been wronged as quickly as possible WP:EM ViridaeTalk 11:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, actions like these are already on RfC for guy, and he clearly hasnt learnt. ViridaeTalk 11:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
So take it to arbcom, do not use your tools in a dispute. It is quite unjustifiable.--Docg 11:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Viridae, you are confusing policy with process. Policy says we don't have POV forks (WP:NPOV), we don't allow users to indefinitely keep deleted content in userspace, and we don't use unreliable sources. Oh, and we don't wheel-war. Guy (Help!) 14:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are some examples of these massively contentious deletions:

But you know something? Part of the reason was, and I will freely admit this, laziness. I was removing citations to Free Republic, which is an unreliable source and riddled with copyright violations, and yes, I admit it, I could not be bothered to fix the links in these abandoned userspace forks rather than simply getting rid of them. The staggering assumptions of ill-faith from Viridae are amusing, but simply wrong: I could not see the point in fixing articles which have been lying around in userpsace untouched by anything but bots for months or in some cases years. Still, why even ask for the truth when an assumption of bad faith is so much more satisfying? I think I made around 1,500 edits to get rid of the links and bogus "citations" to Freeper threads or copyvios of mainstream sources (see L. A. Times v. Free Republic) and yes, I really was getting thorughly fed up with it and lost a bit of patience when I found these abandoned forks. On the plus side, we no longer have contentious facts about living individuals supported by reference to Freeper rants about their evil pinko commie subversive ways, so some good at least has come of all those hours of effort. I'm sure Viridae did something to improve the encyclopaedia in that time as well, besides shit-stirring and wheel-warring with an admin with whom he is in dispute. Guy (Help!) 11:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Current policy does not lay down how long archived article material may be kept in userspace, if it isn't being worked on. I do think we need a clearer and more specific guideline on this, to avoid such conflicts occurring in the future. I do think that JzG was wrong to originally delete these pages under CSD G6, since that criterion is expressly for routine and non-controversial deletions, and these are self-evidently controversial; however, I applaud the fact that he has now sent them to MfD, which is entirely appropriate. Depending on the consensus which arises in those MfDs, we may be able to add a paragraph to WP:U detailing precise rules for these types of pages (maybe allowing the deletion of such pages if they haven't been worked on for three months, or something like that). WaltonOne 14:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Current practice, however, has it that it is not acceptable to leave deleted material hanging around in userspace forever without being worked on, as an end-run around WP:CSD#G4. Guy (Help!) 18:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
While I do see the sense in that argument, and I have seen such material put up for MfD many times in the past, it has never (for good reason) been eligible for speedy. The problem is, it's often hard to tell whether someone is trying to store their own preferred POV fork of an article, or simply intended to work on the material and hasn't got round to it yet. I don't think speedy was appropriate in such a case, but we'll see what consensus develops on the MfDs. WaltonOne 19:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous...two admins attacking each other over some silly user-sub-page deletions. Shame on you both, I would have expected more from admins. JzG, really you should have notified before deleting, and Viridae, just don't undo his actions, take it to his talkpage first.--Phoenix-wiki 14:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Normally if I see abandoned userspace forks and the user is still active, I WP:PROD them. If the user is gone, and they are obviously left-overs form some long-dead dispute, then deleting them quietly is not usually controversial. I have found that in some cases trying to delete "backup" or "safety" copies of material that was copied to userspace without history during AfDs, causes stpid drama and ends with the same result. In this case, though, see my comment above: I was trying to get rid of well over a thousand links to an inapppropriate source and really did not see any point fixing userspace content forks that had not been touched for months other than by bots. When such pages are MfDd, in my experience they get deleted. I fixed any userspace pages that had current or near-current edits to them. Guy (Help!) 11:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Blacklisting sources[edit]

I wonder how can someone unilaterally decide that certain source (say Free Republic) is "unreliable" and then remove it from all articles and user spaces? Was it officially "blacklisted" somewhere?Biophys (talk) O'K, I see it here: [4]. All these sources, including YouTube seem to be unilaterally blacklisted. But on what grounds? Was it a proper procedure? This way one can eliminate a lot of sources. For example, if a site (say YouTube) has occasional copyright violations, should we exclude all links to this site, including those which are not copyright violations? I do not think this is right.Biophys (talk) 15:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn't. See, for example Little Tich for an example of a YouTube video that's free of copyright. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 15:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Right. No one should blacklist sources simply because they are deemed unreliable. For example, even if Free Republic is an unreliable source (which is debatable), it still may be appropriate in the article about Free Republic itself. Therefore, the blacklisting and such edits [5] are inappropriate. Especially when the blacklisting was justified by simply telling "Fuck no" (see here [6]).Biophys (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
In case it hasn't been brought up (didn't read the above section, just noticed this), in the case of a site that's being widely misused (no idea if Free Republic is or is not), but, is still valid in one or two articles, specific links may be whitelisted... SQLQuery me! 16:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of the sites he blacklisted were used in too many articles. I am arguing about a proper procedure. If a source is simply "unreliable" (which may be disputed at any time), it should not be blacklisted simply because it is unreliable. Just to clarify, a racist blog like "stormfront" might be eliminated like that, but blacklisting of a good educational site "Spatakus" ([7]) has no justification whatsoever.Biophys (talk) 16:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Free Republic is undoubtedly an unreliable source as far as WP:RS goes, and shouldn't be used to back up claims of fact. However, it might well be a relevant source/external link in articles about Free Republic itself. I do understand, though, that we have to avoid linking to potential copyvios; I'm not an expert on copyright law, so I defer to the judgment of the community on this one. WaltonOne 16:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Free Republic was discussed on WP:RSN and the consensus was that it was unreliable.[8] Aside from being copyright violations, the materials posted there are edited and followed by large amounts of highly POV commentary. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Blacklisting a site simply because a few editors find it unreliable is a very, very bad idea. The purpose of the blacklist is to prevent links to spam sites, sites that might be hosting viruses, etc. It is not there to enforce WP:RS. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Right. Please note that not only "Free Republic" has been blacklisted here [9], so the argument about "Free Republic" discussion is not relevant. Did anyone discussed "Spartacus" and YouTube? I used this these sites many times. This is not spam. We must follow the existing policies for sources.Biophys (talk) 17:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

← There is a discussion on the blacklist talk page, and it was absolutely not just my call. The problems with Free Republic include: polemical content about living individuals; egregious copyright violation; lack of editorial policy and oversight. It is simply not a reliable source. Not even slightly. But the major problem was citations to sources flagged as "subscription required (subscription free copy at kind of stuff. Simply not appropriate. I removed links to YouTube a long time back (and a few more recently) mainly due to copyright concerns. Spartacus Educational is an odd one; there are a lot of links, and my original research shoewd that a very large number of them had eben added ot the site owner. The content looks good, but there is no evidence of editorial oversight or to support the incredibly wide ranging expertise that would be required of the site owner if all the content is genuinely his own work. I seem to recall some copyvios (from newspapers) as well. This is not really the place to discuss editorial actions, though, since neither YouTube removal nor the few Spartacus links I've removed involved any admin tools, only blacklisting Freep required that, and that was a perfectly routine blacklist following discussion in the relevant places. There has never been any assertion or evidence that Free Republic satisfies our sourcing requirements. My personal page on unreliabel sources is just that: a personal page. It's a work list, of no particular relevance other than that it allowed me to give an edit summary that explained in some detail the multiple reasons why I was removing citations to Free Republic; this was a response to several questions on my talk page. Very few came up after I started linking that in the edit summaries. It's a user subpage, so obviously not asserted as any kind of policy in and of itself, though I reference policy for the Frrep case since that's what I was doing at the time. You'll notice that I also identify Stormfront as an unreliable source; I removed most of the links to that a long time ago and there was no dispute about that. Guy (Help!) 18:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is not a good idea to blacklist any source simply because it is deemed unreliable by several people. As about "Spatacus", you admit you are not sure if it is reliable or not, but you still deleted some links. This would be better done by users who edit the corresponding articles, after an appropriate discussion, rather than as an administrative action.Biophys (talk) 18:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe that was blacklisted simply because it is an unreliable source, it started out that way as my original question on the Blacklist page shows[10], but my request to have it blacklisted was because it was being used primarly for linking to for its unauthorized reprints of copyrighted material which is in violation of WP:COPY#Linking to copyrighted material.[11] Prior to JzG going through and removing a vast majority of the links, there were over a thousand links to Free Republic that were clearly reprints of copyrighted material that was being reprinted without permission of the owner of that material, something Free Republic has gotten in trouble with before.--Bobblehead (rants) 18:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I am sure people would not even have suggested blacklisting if the site was not being linked to excess and in breach of policy. But it was - widely, systematically and in some cases quite blatantly, with link summaries that made it abundantly clear that the material was a copyright violation. Free Republic asserted at trial that hosting copyright violations was protected under the First Amendment; they lost. It's not clear to me what is lost to the encyclopaedia here. Guy (Help!) 20:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, if you can't find an alternative source then I'd suggest the information was pretty fishy in the first place. We wouldn't need to pblacklist it is people didn't use sources that breached our fundamental values and ethos.Spartaz Humbug! 19:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
How about Associated content as an example of using the blacklist for enforce WP:RS. I dont see too many copyvios there. It's not something I would use as a source, but its possible one day I might want to link to it from the WP:EL section, which has looser requirements and allows some self-published material. Having AC on the blacklist interferes with that. P.S. I didn't notice Youtube on either the WP or the global blacklist. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Viridae and JzG[edit]

This really has been going on too long. I'm sure everyone is by now aware of the contempt that Viridae clearly holds for JzG's judgment. His longterm habit of reversing admin actions by Guy that he disagrees with without discussion is totally inappropriate. This is far from the first time this board has wasted time dealing with the fallout. If Viridae thinks JzG has made the wrong decision, there are processes he could use to challenge them. But simply undoing everything is overtly antagonistic. There are over 1,500 admins, I see no reason why it always seems to be Viridae reverting JzG's actions. I think the time has come to ask Viridae to agree never to undo Guy's action however strongly he feels about them - he is clearly not sufficiently neutral to do so dispassionately. WjBscribe 14:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree; the Viridae-Guy beef is as well known on Wikipedia as Tupac and Biggie (though my rap knowledge is wanting). Neither should be reversing each others actions. Sceptre (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it may be productive if both were to agree to not revert or otherwise edit each others contributions - certainly not undo eithers sysop actions. I would point out, to be impartial, that the disrespect between the two parties appears mutual (I am certainly aware of it) and that it isn't only the one who instigates derogatory comment. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, Viridae was clearly in the right as far as reversing the original deletions goes (since it was self-evidently inappropriate to cite CSD G6, a criterion which relates only to non-controversial housekeeping, in making deletions which were likely to be controversial). However, I do agree that, given that he and JzG clearly have an ongoing feud, it might have been better if he had sought a second opinion from another administrator before undeleting, or taken it to DRV as per normal procedure; there was no urgent need to undelete straight away. But the pages are now at MfD - which, IMO, is the correct forum for resolving this - so I think we should leave it be, and close this thread. No harm done overall. WaltonOne 16:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Can I point out that I only undeleted them after discussion on the subject in which Guy had refused to overturn his own deletions and only undeleted those pages for which the original author/subpages owner had requested undeletion. I didn't go through and undelete all of those to which the speedy had been misapplied. ViridaeTalk 21:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No other admin seems prepared to point out Guy's questionable actions. -- Naerii 16:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Pointing them out would be different then undoing them without discussion. John Reaves 17:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Guy doesn't really do discussion, though. It is true that he does sometimes listen, but generally only to those people whose point of view he has sympathy with (and vice versa) while anyone else is fair game for his pretty individual interpretations of not quite in violation of WP:CIVIL responses. Discussing Guys actions with anybody else just brings out the "valuable contributor with refreshing bluntness" vs. "rude prat who uses the tools inappropriately" cycle (jerk) responses. Generally, it is best that sysops do what they are supposed to - act in what is believed to be the best interest of the encyclopedia. Afterward we can discuss the whys and wherefores. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
So you say. But as it turns out I've had quite a productive and civil dialogue with Jaakobou. Guy (Help!) 17:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
In which case, I am pleased to have been proven wrong. I hope I continue to be shown up as being mistaken; it's good for the encyclopedia, and something that I have been used to (on occasion) over the years. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually you initially flatly refused to undelete, and despite saying you would provide the info by email at a later stage you didn't offer that upfront, meaning the editor was unaware of that option. ViridaeTalk 21:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
And you wheel-warred, forestalling any resolution of that discussion. Just as you undeleted another userspace page which (has now been re-deleted after a very short slam-dunk MfD) without my even having seen it, let alone responded. But that's really beside the point: as noted in several places, and last time you undid one of my admin actions, and the time before that, you are the very last person who should be undoing my admin actions. There are 1,500 admins, leave it to one who is a neutral third party. Guy (Help!) 11:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Voicing in as Jaakobou's mentor, I'd like to respectfully request a strikethrough of the pages from Jaakobou's userspace from this discussion. The recent thread about those deletions was a chain of maybe-not-the-best-decisions by several people that got resolved pretty quickly once they began communicating. Wikipedians have little miscommunications all the time; as long as everyone is reasonable that's not a big deal. So let's pass over this bit instead of letting it plague us. Disclaimer: I have no idea whether Jaakobou agrees with me or not on this; it's a major holiday for him and the middle of the night in his part of the world. DurovaCharge! 01:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

One more thing to clarify: Jaakobou was not singled out for any sanction by the arbcom; the Israeli-Palestinian dispute articles are under general parole. DurovaCharge! 02:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm seeing more and more admins deleting things outside of the deletion policy. Guy is one of them, WJB is another. Often times these deletions are slipped in there, and if you try to challenge them you're either ignored or written off as a troll. Especially when you already know, from experience, how these editors tend to respond when you question their admin actions. While Viridae's actions were not ideal, I can hardly fault him for correcting an obvious policy violation. -- Ned Scott 03:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree that JzG and Viridae are "involved" with respect to each other. Neither should use sysop tools against the other, nor use tools to undo something that the other has done. To both of you: if you have a problem with the other's actions, get help from an uninvolved admin. Jehochman Talk 03:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
    • as I have equal problems with some of the admin actions of both of these editors, does that make me a suitable neutral party? or am i just looking for trouble? DGG (talk) 06:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • You're a militant inclusionist, of course you're looking for trouble :-) Incidentally, can anyone point to occasions where I've reversed Viridae's admin actions? Anything in the last six months should be fine. I'd like to check, because I don't think I have, my policy with respect to Viridae is to leave well alone, the issue is entirely in the opposite direction as far as I know. Guy (Help!) 10:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I am not one for defending JzG, but in this case, I believe he is correct - I have never seen him revert Viridae's admin actions. I have asked Viridae before to just leave Guy's stuff alone, as there's some unfortunate antagonism between the two. I really do wish he would. If he is concerned, post the concerns here and let one of our many admins less antagonistic to Guy (which is {{numberofadmins - JzG - Viridae}} admins, pretty much) respond to it. Neıl 11:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Neil's right. Guy, go <-- way. Viridae, go --> way. Both look away from each other. Now you can't see what the other is doing, and you're all the better for it. Let the people between you, who can see both of you in a neutral light, sort it out. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I repeat my request: please remove the Jaakobou examples from the list of putative problems. DurovaCharge! 05:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks from User:Jeffmichaud[edit]

This user has consistently been unable to discuss policy, but insists on theological discussion laced with continual personal attacks.

  • "your finite understanding of this particular subject"
  • "You've taken it upon yourself to interpret Explicit Writings"
  • "You're making uneducated assumptions without all the facts"
  • "Your assertion … irresponsibly concludes"


  • "Pointing out that you're uneducated about "this particular subject" is not a personal attack;"
  • "You seem to be suffering from a delusion that your limited understanding of this subject"


  • "you made it up and shamelessly attempted to pass it off as authentic"
  • "In fact no reference exists that … are there Mr. Smarty?


When warned on his user page, these are struck with deliberately insulting edit sums: [15] [16]

Some admin help would be of help. MARussellPESE (talk) 04:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh goody, a religious content dispute, with escalating warnings, warnign blankings, and increasingly arrogant tones... whee! but not AN/I material. You've got some ridiculously pontificating content disputes here about the relevancy of Judaic theory to Ba'hai theologies. YOu probably want WP:3O. or WP:DR, but not AN/I, unless you're asking for somethign specific? ThuranX (talk) 05:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
This user has a long history of being warned and asked to stop insulting his interlocutors directly — passing beyond the pale of WP:CIVIL. I can understand strong language directed at the opposing POV and arguments, but I thought WP:NPA was clear that points directed at the other party are out-of-bounds. Wikiquette alerts are cute, but have no teeth. (Been there. Done that.) There's no dispute to resolve as the editor has caved under WP:UNDUE. Frankly, even a simple {{subst:uw-npa1}} from an admin might get him to argue the topic and not personalities. MARussellPESE (talk) 03:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I posted this response below on MARussell's talk page in response to the warning he left on my talk page, but he has deleted it there. I have archived his warnings, but he insists on restoring them onto my talk page and "escalating the warnings"; I guess his talk page is above this policy? This response entails all I have to say on the matter. I feel if this is to be considered that a reply is in order to provide a holistic view as he is here attempting to isolate statements from their context and accuse me of engaging in things we've both indulged in.

"Thanks for the hearty laugh. The funniest being the double standard that you lavishly bestow upon your fellow editors. I'm sure the Incident Review Board will find it compelling that you believe you can snidely reply to my challenge for a reference with sarcasm, but me calling you Mr. Smarty in response is a personal attack. You think you have the right to call my reasoning puerile (you're spelling that wrong,btw), and turn around and extol me to be civil for how I respond? Saying you made something up is an attack? YOU DID MAKE IT UP!!! I didn't realize that was a valid debating technique, or that I wasn't allowed to point it out.

"Mike, you're hardly living up to these lofty ideals you expect from the rest of us, so spare me the lectures. You have the nerve to respond to me in a discussion with snide sarcasm, and turn around and issue threats and warnings on my talk page for my equally sarcastic reply? You're being absolutely hypocritical about this. If you squint your eyes and look closer at these last few discussions we've had together, you might notice that the exchanges are always confrontational from both sides; yet your sarcasm is justified, while mine is uncivil? What a farce.

"Look Mike, my primary interest, namely seeing that our views aren't entirely sanitize from Wikipedia, are increasingly being chipped away and vanishing. After more than two years of revert-warring with Cunado, and being challenged and spoken down to by the likes of you, who could be expected to assume good faith? A better question is why should I care, when you don't extend the courtesies you demand from others? If you intend on dealing with my concerns by intentionally mis-characterizing them in your responses, ignoring and not responding to direct challenges to your reasoning, and consistently speaking down to me with an heir of superiority, then you can expect more of the same from me.

"If you really want to make a case to have me blocked on how I choose to call you out for being disingenuous by making things up, then you have my blessing. I find it utterly amusing what you choose to define as a personal attack; I define them as stating facts. By all means go to the Alert board with me describing your repeated unfounded "warnings" as whining in my talk page edit summaries, and with me calling you a "smarty-pants" while responding to your demeaning sarcasm. Oh the humanity! I'm sure the damage I've done to the Wiki-community has been irreversible. I'm sure to be banned for life. If nothing else I do want to thank you for the hearty laughs your "warnings" have brought me. Cheers." Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 04:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This has escalated to harrasment on my talk page with bogus warning tags and reverts:
  1. [17]
  2. [18]
  3. [19]
Jeff has deleted warnings off of his talk page, but I apparently don't have the right to police my own talk page? MARussellPESE (talk) 05:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe I was mistaken about removing content from your own talk page, and I apologize. I was only aware of this policy (which is what I assumed was motivating his restorations on my page), and wasn't aware that the talk page policies state you can remove whatever you want. I however have been archiving these warnings, and not deleting them, as I stated in the edit summaries when moving them. I think it's a slight exaggeration to call restoring my comments on his page harassment as they accompanied explanations, and were identical in nature to what has been perpetrated repeatedly upon my talk page by Mr. Russell in recent days ([20], [21]). He himself was restoring his "warnings" to my talk page over and over (after I'd moved them to Archive 2) while "escalating" his warnings. I wasn't in fact removing anything, rather moving them, but he took it upon himself to restore the comments again and again. Not sure how what I did is harassment if what he did wasn't? The actual difference being that I archived his comments, whereas he has been completely excising my reply to what he himself initiated on my page.

Based upon this recent comment to my page, I now understand this crossroads we're at, as he believes his sarcasm is warranted so long as it's only directed at my reasoning, and not at me personally. I get it now. I'm absolutely guilty as charged, as I have indulged beyond this limit to where sarcasm is appropriate. I'm profoundly sorry for the trouble this has wrought. I'm truly sorry that this has devolved into this , and am embarrassed for being responsible for arousing this sheer absurdity. I can commit myself at this moment to vow not to participate, initiate, or react to any sarcastic or snide comments in the future. I can't believe I bothered to participate to any extent as it is. Sorry for the trouble. Cheers. Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 05:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack by Francis23[edit]

Resolved: yuck. indef blocked. --barneca (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This has scrolled by on my watchlist and I think it's blockable. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That guy. I reverted stuff almost exactly like that from anon editors over the last few days. Looking at Francis' 'contrabutions' I see that (s)he has a preformatted insult and just changes a name or so in it. I suspect the editor may have gone IP at this point. Loren.wilton (talk) 05:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Editor engaging in pointy editing, using his talk as an attack page, violating WP:OR[edit]

Proxy User (talk · contribs) is engaging in some WP:POINTy editing at the Joseph Konopka article. He insists on changing one piece of information about the subject from "computer expert" (which is what the cited reliable source refers to him as) to "systems administrator". He claims that systems administrators are not computer experts and so the article should not say this, however, this is basically a violation of WP:OR. He's been engaging in edit wars at the Dawn Wells article and accusing other editors of having a conflict of interest and of pushing a POV when they have, in fact, attempted to make the article conform to NPOV. Furthermore, he was engaged in some dispute with FCYTravis, after which he posted the following to his own talk page [22]. This persons behavior and attitude are disruptive. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This really sounds more like a content dispute. Perhaps you should seek help from outside parties via WP:MEDCAB or from WP:MEDCOM. In any case, I'm not sure exactly what you want us to do here? JodyB talk 17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
On second thought, I would encourage you all to be very careful about WP:3R. The two of your should work it out on the talk page. To encourage your fruitful communication, I have protected the page for a couple of days. JodyB talk 17:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the protection. I think it's more than a content dispute, as he's attempting to reinterpret what a reliable source clearly states. But maybe that's just me. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, "computer expert" is not a term you will find on the resume of anyone actually in the computer business. It is a term that reporters use for just about any form of person involved in computers, even if it is a 9 year old hacker or a grandmother that bought a machine at Best Buy to send email. Thus "computer expert" and "systems administrator" are not necessarily incompatable terms. I do not know the professional experience of JK (or anything else about him), but if he was indeed employed in the computer business his job title was not "computer expert". It may have been sysadmin, or something else. I would suggest that people involved in the article try to find a more accurate citation on the person's actual job description. The current term, while clearly cited, is IMHO too vague to argue over.
The claim that a sysadmin is not a "computer expert" is open to a vast amount of interpretation. I would say the pointy editor was using "expert" in a vastly different meaning than a reporter will use it in a general readership article (the cited reference). Even accepting the alternate definition of the editor, there is not necessarily a conflict. Some sysadmins are complete dunderheads, but a very large number are indeed "computer experts", though typically not "computer programmers", which I suspect the editor may be thinking of. Loren.wilton (talk) 05:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

User Tree of Life Time spamming[edit]

User Tree of Life has been promoting his personal website on various articles after being told not to do so. His website details his personal theories, including why the historical dates for everything in the first century CE should be reduced by 4 years. The 3 week editing history of Tree of Life has been solely devoted to making these promotions or arguing why these promotions are warranted. Legis Nuntius (talk) 23:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:CANVASSING by User:Imbris[edit]

User:Imbris has engaged in CANVASSING concerning a move vote in the Tomislav II of Croatia, 4th Duke of Aosta article. He has repeatedly been messaging people and trying to persuade them to vote in accordance to his own personal view on the matter. He appears to have ignored my requests to cease, I'm hoping he'd stop if he was warned to stop by an Admin.
links: [23], [24], [25], [26], [27]

I warned him a number of times to stop, but he ignored warnings and continued today as well [28], [29].
All in all its rather obvious, the best example would be: "I opposed that and invite you to do the same.". Could someone just warn the guy cause he does not look like he's going to stop... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave a note, however both of you need to step back and calm down a bit from the looks of things. No need to get all frustrated over what to call somebody. Hersfold (t/a/c) 03:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I am trying to calm the situation down. It was pretty civil until Imbris joined in, I suppose he's just upset he didn't notice the move sooner. I can understand that, but his reaction is a bit too emotional... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 03:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

More crazy wacky funtime with American Brit[edit]

Please note: I'm only reporting this so there can be no claims that I'm trying to sweep this under the rug.

User:American Brit recently made another appearance, under the guise of User:American Brit the Third (say what you will about him, but I like the easily-named socks). I summarily blocked him as he's been banned by the community. I happened to pop back over, and saw that he'd left a charming message at User talk:American Brit the Third. Because he was making legal threats and personal attacks, I fully protected the talk page, eliminating his opportunity to have a neutral party investigate the claims. I'm posting this here because he's been banned for a year, and this seemed like an ideal opportunity to investigate whether the ban was warranted or not. :)

So, that's that. EVula // talk // // 21:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

American Brit's collection of threats. He was comical while he lasted. seicer | talk | contribs 21:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, quite appropriately banned, I think. Most amusing. Sandstein (talk) 21:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I like this line: "Just start inviting people to a double funeral because Hanunted Angel and EVula are going tot he grave." [30]. And today. seicer | talk | contribs 21:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Relevant links: :::Community ban
Checkuser case.
I filed the community ban proposal. Keep him gone. Keegantalk 07:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Turemetalfan /[edit]

The above user has been blocked indefinitely from editing on wikipedia as evident here but is still evading the block through the use of that ip address. He is making edits on the Epica page such as this, removing information referenced by reliable sources in the main body of the article. He has also left an abusive comment towards me on my talk page here, calling me a dick head among other things. --Bardin (talk) 07:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

John Oliver (comedian) just challenged his audience to change entries[edit]

Moments ago, on his new Comedy Central special, in the last five minutes of the special, he gave specific, Colbert-like instructions as to specific entries to vandalize. BusterD (talk) 03:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

So, do you recommend protection, then? Is there any specific course of action that should be taken? —  scetoaux (T|C) 03:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Which entries? --Elonka 03:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

These are the "lies" Oliver listed, he said wished to get on the pedia. BusterD (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Already seeing some action at Charles Schumer. BusterD (talk) 03:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Schumer's article is protected now. Pelosi's and Rove's too. Bush's article has been protected, and now I'm protecting Lugar's article.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Replays in two hours. Unless CC plans on re-running this heavily, 24 hours should be fine. BusterD (talk) 03:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh well, these things tend to go on for a while. Maybe preventing them from editing in general will disuade such vandalism in general.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I reiterate: Lead pipe. Comatose. HalfShadow (talk) 03:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Better to beat them with quick eyes and disciplined reaction, like we just accomplished. Damage by ips is minimized, echos are very small. He did say some rather authentically nice things about the project (then encouraged everyone to spoil it). BusterD (talk) 03:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Nnno, he said nothing nice, but many TRUE things about 'Wikiality', and the ability of any jackass to rewrite history. He got to teh heart of a LOT of the problems with this project. ThuranX (talk) 05:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Heh. I just watched that and came by to mention it. He also said that his own bio listed his middle name as "Cornelius", and somebody has already tried that. Might as well protect his entry if you're doing the rest. Probably worth keeping an eye on Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, and Colbert's favorite targets, too. William Pietri (talk) 03:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Was about to mention that but got a edit conflict(thats like the 8th tonight) БοņёŠɓɤĭĠ₳₯є 03:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • This may flush out some sleeper socks; I've already reverted one on Chuck Schumer; first edit, though he has been registered since 2006. Horologium (talk) 03:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Twothreebreak is another such editor. Also ,requesting MOVE protection on the page, cause... well, idiots are idiots. ThuranX (talk) 05:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Okto8's mess at Oliver has been cleared as well (I left the idiotic redirect). I wish a comedian would get out there and made fun of the people who jump and vandalize whenever they tell everyone to. That would be really funny. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I cleaned up a bit more stuff. I still think his bit was funny, and encourage others to watch the show. I think it's great that we're important and interesting enough to get discussed like this. William Pietri (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
This is all very well, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We don't want hordes of newbies' first experience of wikipedia to be "this page is protected from editing". And I'm pretty sure Dick Lugar is soluble in water. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 21:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Almost a year ago now, I fell victim on Dutch Wikipedia to nl:Dirk Draulans this journalist claiming that his article on Wikipedia had both his birth date and the name of his wife wrong. A few months later, his wife was in the news and surprise, surprise, the original Dutch Wikipedia entry had been right all along. The journalist obviously wrote that article just to see how fast we would change his article and how fast we would change it back. What would be the policy of English Wikipedia on a journalist who played a trick like that? Stop considering him an RS? Or would the fact that he never commented on it to joke about Wikipedia, mean we forget the incident? --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 11:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

350,575 Afro-Latinos in Honduras[edit]

Someone has decided that there are not the 150K Afro-Latinos in Honduras that our sources tell us, and that the figure should be 350K instead, down from his original count of 750K. No sources for this position, but this has been going on for a while (at least since December 9, 2007), in a wide variety of articles that mention the census. Some examples:

I'm pretty sure that it is all Honduran72 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) and Editor652 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log). The problem is that it isn't obvious vandalism, so people sometimes edit on top of it, making it error-prone to keep out.

Is there any automatic way to handle this? Are any of the vandalbots flexible enought to look for this?

Kww (talk) 19:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Would appreciate it if someone would do something. Honduran72 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) went at it pretty hard tonight, and my report at WP:AIV was rejected without comment. After he noticed the warning, he went at it with (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). This guy needs blocked and blocked hard.Kww (talk) 02:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I really feel like I'm talking to myself here. Honduran72 finally got blocked last night, and MTA25 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) showed up to continue the fight. I filed at SSP. Faster service than I get there would be greatly appreciated.Kww (talk) 12:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

East Pictou Middle School[edit]

Resolved: semi-protected -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Could someone semiprotect this for a couple of days? There has been an IP vandal on a series of different addresses reinstating the same vandalism into the infobox every time it is reverted. This has been going on for at least a day, so the semi would probably need to be about 2 days. See current state and diff from my last revert for the standard pattern. Loren.wilton (talk) 06:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. WP:RFPP is usually a better place to request protection. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I was watching TV last night and...[edit]

I was watching Al Roker's TV show Heavyweights on on the Food Network on Monday, April 21 2008. The show was about the rise of the fast food restaurants Burger King and McDonald's, two Wikipedia article I have worked on extensively. Imagine my surprise when I heard the host rattling off facts and figures about the companies using a script that was verbatim to the text found in those two articles, some of which I had written myself. I was quite awed by the fact that Mr Roker's company had used WP as a source for its data, and was even more surprised that they didn't cite WP for the data in the credits. Ah, plagerism...

Just a little rant.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 08:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It is worth bearing in mind that companies – even big evil media companies – aren't monolithic entities. More often than not, their right hands genuinely have no idea what their left hands are doing. It's quite possible that the show doesn't know one of its writers is a plagiarist.
A polite note to the production company along the lines of
I enjoyed your program on 21 April 2008 about fast food restaurants. I noticed, however, that some of the host's script appeared to be extremely similar to text from the online encyclopedia Wikipedia (link). As a long-time contributor to Wikipedia and author of some of the text involved, I'm flattered that you found my writing suitable for inclusion.
In the future, however, a bit of recognition and credit for Wikipedia's hardworking volunteers would be most appreciated. If material is drawn – essentially verbatim – from Wikipedia, a shout-out during the show or a mention in the credits would not be out of place.
wouldn't be unreasonable. (Feel free to prettify, rewrite, expand as you see fit.) It could be a one-off error where they forgot to credit, or one of the writers had a temporary lapse in judgement. The concern is where one of their writers has slipped into some bad habits to meet deadlines; see for example User:TenOfAllTrades/Aloha Dupe.
You can draw the problem to their attention, but be polite. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

repeated addition of uncited material to Dubstep[edit]

Hi. An editor or group of editors has been repeatedly adding uncited material to Dubstep over the last few days. First it was to Thugstep, an article that was succesfully PRODded, and now it's Dark Garage, an article that's speedied. I've tried to compromise, and I'd like a bit of assistance or a second opinion on this at this point. --Kaini (talk) 12:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

...and now a violation of WP:CIVIL, too; [38] --Kaini (talk) 12:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
two more violations of WP:CIVIL; [39], [40]

Banning policy etc.[edit]



could someone look at the edits of the IP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), such as this diff? The users keeps changing the banning-related policy pages and might be a sock puppet of a banned user. --B. Wolterding (talk) 13:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for a week. seicer | talk | contribs 13:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
This is probably a public terminal, or at least a shared work IP, as it is registered to United HealthCare Corporation. CheckUser shows the IP has been used by banned user Malber (talk · contribs) before, and this is likely him. Also, matching are Poison Pen (talk · contribs) and Eleven Special (talk · contribs) which are obvious from their edits. Dmcdevit·t 14:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Socks blocked. Kwsn (Ni!) 14:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

W.GUGLINSKI again[edit]

User User_talk:W.GUGLINSKI was indef blocked (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive328#User:W.GUGLINSKI) for a long string of pseudoscience article creations, always referencing his book on "Quantum Ring Theory"; he then badgered other editors in one-by-one responses of (and weird "rejections" of) AfD votes. Well, a series of articles were recently created on the same topics (Heisenberg's paradox, Inversion of logic in Schrödinger equation, and New de Broglie's paradox‎), all citing the same book. The creator is new SPA User_talk:YURI2008, and the same badgering AfD "keep" votes are rolling in from an array of Brazilian dynamic IPs, at least one of which was the source of an obvious Guglinski edit Special:Contributions/ in Quantum Ring Theory's AfD. In other words, Guglinki appears to be evading his block with new account User_talk:YURI2008 (probable) and anon logins from 200.X and 189.48.X. (basically certain) Bm gub (talk) 00:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and indef-blocked YURI2008 (talk · contribs) as a sock of W.GUGLINSKI (talk · contribs). I don’t have the time right now to deal with all the IPs, though. —Travistalk 02:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics#Crank posts. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I am astonished...[edit]

Please take a look to what is happening here: it seems to me that a group of editors and admins is trying to ban all the editors who allegedly do not share a certain POV about 9/11 topic, and in my opinion they are doing this with almost inconsistent, groundelss and pretextuous motivations. Can any other (possibly unbiased) admin take a look to what is going on, please?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This certain POV is the verifiable one. You and the others have been banned for disruptively pushing conspiracy theory POV. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
"Ban all editors" is a huge exageration, as a matter of fact the first proposal was a topic ban on a certain user, not a full-fleged ban. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
But I didn't wrote "all the editors", I wrote "all the editors who allegedly do not share a certain POV about 9/11 topic". However do you think it is all ok to "topic ban" selectively the editors according to their alleged POV?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Pokipsy76 just violated his two month ban.[41] Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Honestly I though that "ban" was an automatism, not something that I could violate.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Many editors fail to grasp the difference between a ban and a block. Assuming good faith, one must conclude that Pokipsy76 made that post in the belief that it was either okay, or impossible, to do so. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The block/ban distinction is a good point. It would be helpful if we had a template explaining what the ban meant. Is there anyone template-savvy who'd be willing to do this? Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I can take a look at it. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually... which template am I looking at? Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Updated so far: Template:Banned user arbcom and Template:Banned user. Please let me know if there's any other that need hitting. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Puppet of Mike Babic[edit]

User:Mike Babic has been warned again [42] and again [43] that he need to stop editing articles using multiple accounts (IP address and user account) because it is against wikipedia rules. His answer on my last warning has been: "forgot to log in that one time" [44] . This answer has been writen on 14:02, 21 April 2008 and only 3 hours latter edited again with his puppet [45] Fact that is puppet of Mike Babic is confirmed with Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mike Babic.

I am asking only decision in support of wikipedia rules. There is no point that others use only 1 account for editing 1 article if others can use multiple accounts--Rjecina (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, I'm losing my patience with you. Please compare the similar complaint here. It has been pointed out time and time again to you that it is NOT automatically abusive sockpuppetry if somebody occasionally edits logged out. In the present case, he made edits from his well known IP block, and then each time followed up on them with another edit logged-in, thus making the earlier edit easily recognisable as his. Abusive sockpuppetry means intention to deceive; there clearly is no such here.
You, however, Rjecina, are very clearly engaging in a campaign of harassment in order to get as many opposing editors blocked as possible. You're apparently even keeping a list of trophies ([46]). I'll wait for comments from others here, but I'm seriously considering handing out some fresh sanction under WP:ARBMAC against you at this point. Fut.Perf. 10:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I am mistaking but if 1 users is editing article from 2 (or more accounts) article history will show greater support for his positions of what is in reality and this is against wikipedia rules. In reality it is no important if I and Fut.Perf. know who is puppet master but fact that other users think that there are 2 different users which support 1 position and this is false.
I will be happy to recieve new informations if my position is wrong or not ? --Rjecina (talk) 10:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with editing while not logged in. If the user is not misrepresenting his history (and in this case he is openly admitting to the logged-out edits) then this is not a case of sockpuppetry. Campaigning to have editors blocked for such behaviour is harrassment. End of story. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Fut.Perf. and thumperward/Chris Cunningham. It is acceptable to edit without having logged into an account. If the user were trying to create the impression of multiple people supporting his position in a dispute, then that would be abusive sockpuppetry. Since that does not appear to be the case, the subject should be dropped. Aleta Sing 14:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt once again up for discussion[edit]

Posting as this has extreme relevance for Wikipedia, and is being held in an area that few watch and less interact on: RFD.

The consensus on Wikipedia:Deletion review/Daniel Brandt 5 is challenged by User:JoshuaZ at As we need to get a final end one way or another to this, please do not remove this notice. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The archive bot only reads timestamps, not English... Carcharoth (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked user spinoza1111 posting insult via anon IP[edit]

Edward Nilges (User spinoza1111 ) is making posts peppered with insults on talk ayn rand via anonymous IP addresses:

There may be others. At least one other user with Anonymous IP address has supported him in posts, though I don't think this is the same user.

Ethan a dawe (talk) 22:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a common problem with him. is his home ip and it is fixed. Any other address he edits from is public and really shouldn't be blocked. He generally loses interest in any topic where his edits are removed all the time. I suggest people stop talking with him on the Ayn Rand talk page and just remove any edit he makes there.--Atlan (talk) 23:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Edward Nilges' rambling comments at Talk:Ayn Rand, full of personal attacks, don't suggest any good-faith desire to improve the encyclopedia or to negotiate with others. The most coherent presentation of his views that I could find is at [47]. He also edits the Ayn Rand article directly, but all his changes are quickly reverted.
  • How about two weeks of semi-protection for Ayn Rand and Talk:Ayn Rand? This might cause him to lose interest. If that doesn't work, blocking of some IPs might be considered. (So far we have just the indef block on his named account, Spinoza1111, and no formal discussion of banning that I am aware of). EdJohnston (talk) 05:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really in favor of semi-protecting a talk page because of one troublesome editor. A block of the main ip in this case would be more appropriate.--Atlan (talk) 09:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Here are the IPs he has used lately:
Atlan, I assume you recommend blocking for a long period (block evasion) and leaving the others alone. I would support that. EdJohnston (talk) 15:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that only if he continues this behavior. As he states in his last edit, it was his last and he will now "pursue this matter outside wikipedia". I don't know what he hopes to accomplish there, but it's not our concern. I hope it keeps him busy.--Atlan (talk) 21:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Problems with a group of new editors - making substantial changes, deleting verified passages and inserting instead quotes from anonymous websites[edit]

A group of new editors who seem to have found an agreement outside of WP (see talk page of that atricle) made big efforts to change the article of Dorje Shugden substentially without any discussion. Any request for discussion on the changes were neglected. Moreover verified passages were deleted and balanced views deleted and insertion from a anonymous website made. I like to ask you for your help by checking the subject, revert or a temporarily block of the article. I have sent all new editors welcomes and ask for collaboration but as you can see from the talk page they just ignore. Thank you very much, --Kt66 (talk) 20:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Moved from WT:AN. x42bn6 Talk Mess 02:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that's a bit of an over reaction to be honest. A group of editors are attempting to improve one article and there is some concern about it? The worse that can happen is that it has to be restored once they are finished. You never know they might even improve the article! SunCreator (talk) 02:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Also they are newbies and they are trying to contact whoever is doing the rollback on the articles talk page. I guess that's you? I think you should discuss with them on the talk page, they seem quite genuine, but have not yet grasped yet how to sign there name with ~~~~. SunCreator (talk) 02:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I am a little concerned about User:Wisdomsword who manages to grasp using the ref tags in his first posts. I will leave him a note to describe the links in better detail rather than just listing the top level domain all the time. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, really interesting. User:Wisdombuddha reverts Kt66 and then Wisdomsword is created who's second edit is "KT 66 is reverting anyone' else's comments with his own sickening and unbacked up bias and i'm amazed he is allowed to do it." Curiouser and curiouser. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Also kt66 does not seem not to be a neutral editor: [[48]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
One quote from an uninvolved editor does not necessarily make User talk:Kt66 out of order. User talk:, are you an editor who is involved in this debate on the article page? I only ask because this appears to be your first edit.
The entire thing is rather bizarre. I'm not familiar with the subject, but all of a sudden there seems to be 6-8 SPAs filling the page. I don't blame Kt66 at all for bringing this here, and hopefully getting more eyes on the article. Redrocket (talk) 07:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • There is a related thread on WP:AN. Some of these editors are sockpuppets. The rest are unrelated; I suspect there is a blog somewhere that has raised some issue with this. Thatcher 14:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Since Wisdombuddha deleted others' comments from Talk:Dorje Shugden, I issued a 24-hour block for violation of WP:TALK, based only on seeing the thread at WP:AN. Naturally I welcome review. EdJohnston (talk) 19:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Loner[edit]

A disruptive editor (Mr. Loner) on the Megarachne, Mesothelae and List of creatures in Primeval‎ is continuing to make unsourced claims in regards to Palaeozoic spiders, and whether T. rex is going to be on the British television program Primeval. Other editors have been reverting his edits for a number of weeks, but over the past few days I have left messages on his talk page trying to get him to stop, and recommend he read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability before he makes any future edits. However, he simply blanks his talk page and carries on as before. I fear this is becoming an edit war as I try to undo his edits. Do anyone have a recommendation about what should be done? The best, Mark t young (talk) 08:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

One point. The user is perfectly within their rights to blank their talk page. The controlling guideline can be found here, 8th bullet. In general, user talk pages are for communication, and are not intended to be a badge of shame to be forced onto someone. - TexasAndroid (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
True, but it wasn't that he was blanking it that is the issue. It was that concerns where made to him, and he reacted by blanking the page and carrying on making disruptive edits. Anyway, he has been blocked for 1 week for edit warring. Cheers, Mark t young (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
There were many posts last night by various anon editors that the T. Rex would be on that TV show. Not being aware of Mr.Loner, I don't know if these were socks or merely something that has become common rumor. Loren.wilton (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I need opinion on Mediation Cases and Point of view pushing[edit]

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-22 Alpha Phi Alpha‎
Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-22 List of Alpha Phi Alpha brothers‎

There have been a number of reverts to material that I have inserted into the Alpha Phi Alpha article. Miranda has reverted it [49], Robotam [50], and CCson [51].
Based from this [52], It should be noted for the record that Ccson has a direct conflict of interest with the Alpha Phi Alpha article, as he is a member of the orgainization and the article's primary contributor. The vast majority of his edits relate to Alpha Phi Alpha only . This conflict of interest has started to become disruptive as the editor marks changes not made by him as vandalism, issues capricious warnings and is adamantly against the achieved consensus. The article's edit history reflects that. Robotam also has a conflict of interest as a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. This COI is noted as they have both openly declared on their user pages that they have formal affiliation with Alpha Phi Alpha. While this is not directly the issue, it does deserve to be noted because this discussion is happening because of their unwillingness to accept community consensus on the originating discussion and to reflect their desire to have the Alpha Phi Alpha article reflect their POV rather what many sources state.

Now in many of the citations listed in the articles we are given things like "^ a b Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp. 15–16. ^ a b Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp. 19–27. ^ Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp.26–31, 92. " The problem with this is access. Unless you have access to the book this History of Alpha Phi Alpha by Charles Wesley you really can't verify the information. I have listed a book that can be searched by Charles Wesley called "Charles H. Wesley: The Intellectual Tradition of a Black Historian " [53]. This book is by the same author. It also allows references to easily be sourced.

There have been other cases involving some of these users who have run into conflict with other users involving these articles.

Which shows some of the conflict that has come about as a result of people interactions in these articles. RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand your content dispute on Alpha Phi Alpha, but I'm not entirely certain why I am included, since I haven't reverted any of your proposed changes. The issues that User:Miranda and I have with each other are not related to this content dispute. Justinm1978 (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Justinm1978 included you because of your past interactions with all 3 of these users. From what I saw here as well. [57]. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated. thank you.RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What admin action is necessary here? As these mediation cases were just filed today, I would recommend that you give mediation some time to hash out the issues you raise. Posting the dispute here in addition to those two (very similar) cases is unlikely to be productive. No comment on the merits. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like an admin just to watch, possibly comment on the mediation cases. RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not participating because I think this is a sock of a banned user. miranda 17:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Miranda did a checkuser on me and I was shown to not be related. Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/SexyNupe2000 [58] RobertOgleFan (talk) 17:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

First, checkuser doesn't totally prove a sock's innocence. A banned user could be traveling to other computers in other states or use proxies. Second, I feel like that the user is bringing out drama without consulting the steps of dispute resolution. He should start on the talk page. No administrator action is necessary. miranda 21:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate of a minor Wikipedian[edit]

I removed the birthdate of Jacob Green696 from an infobox on his userpage. He's fifteen. I left him a note pointing to identity theft as a reason why posting such information is a bad idea. With minors though, it's even more complicated. Do we have a policy that addresses this? Should the information be oversighted? He also lists his full name. Aleta Sing 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It's fine, people are allowed to release their own details. TreasuryTagtc 17:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think there is a policy. There is an essay based on a request for arbitration. --OnoremDil 17:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Should be Oversighted to protect the minor. (Hypnosadist) 17:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec)Personally, I think that if they're fifteen then they're "major" enough to know that it's dumb to give out your details online. If he's an idiot, that's his problem, he must know the dangers. TreasuryTagtc 17:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, he was not yet fifteen when he added it. He also did not object to the removal, instead thanking me for it. So do I send an email to request the oversight? Aleta Sing 18:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, he states (and I have not removed) what day is his fifteenth birthday, which allows anyone to easily deduce the birthdate. Aleta Sing 17:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not every 15 year old knows everything. Yes their told not to put out personal information online, but they don't think anything will happen from it. I know I did when I was that age, even younger. I don't think there is a policy or anything that states minors can't post their birthdates, so I don't think it's much of a problem. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)(EC) I think give him a message on his talk page, explaining what oversight is, and let him decide if he wants it oversighted. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea! I'll do that. Aleta Sing 18:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and left a message on his page, feel free to add to it.<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I did (and apologized for not having notified him of this thread myself). Aleta Sing 18:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks for helping me out/backing me up, although I basically did the same thing for you tee-hee. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'm here.I guess I proboly shouldn't have put it on there. I was just excited about being to make a infobox I out all my info in there.I'll be careful from now on.Mr. Greenchat 18:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't feel too bad, I've seen a boy put his full name, school, town and date of birth up before! (I removed it and explained to him.) Merkin's mum 19:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jason Leopold[edit]

I recently posted on the BLP noticeboard requesting some extra eyes on this article, but I am not sure how much attention that board gets. It seems Mr. Leopold has his lawyer (or someone claiming to be) now editing this article and issuing quite an onslaught of legal threats and the such. Would anyone be willing to weigh in on this? Arkon (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Can we get some range blocks here? Grsztalk 19:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I have full-protected the page on the least-negative version (per BLP, when in doubt, leave it out) and suggest that this be debated on the talk page. It is certainly unacceptable to call someone "controversial" in the first line of their biography. FCYTravis (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who looked at this. Arkon (talk) 19:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I also posted about this to the BLP/N and have actually been in contact with Mr Leopold, via an IP address. He's pissed because he believes the article misrepresents some of his statements, makes false statements about his journalistic integrity which he disputes, among other things. For example, one of the versions included the line "past liar, convicted felon and former alcoholic and cocaine addict" verbatim. There's a line to be drawn between "hagiography" and "BLP violation" and this article does not tread it very well. Remember WP:DOLT. --Haemo (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
why are we fucking around here? let's not "revert to the less negative article" - aggressively stub the article and start again from scratch. We are far better off with a stubbed and sourced paragraph than an article of dubious quality. -- (talk) 20:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In general (I haven't looked at everything in the article, I just reverted wholesale removal of cited material from RS's) the article is well sourced for any critical statements. He doesn't like it, that much is obvious, but that isn't reason to stub it. Arkon (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Don't deep Link Google Books PDF!![edit]

What's going on here? Ziggy Sawdust 21:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Difficult TfD close[edit]

The sorts of issues raised in this TfD are not the type of issues normally covered in an RfA. Considering this seems to be more of a factual rather than a consensus dispute, and considering that concerning those factual dimensions I am out of my depth, I bring it before the noticeboard to see what other admins might think (or know). RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 21:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Iron Man (comics) problems[edit]

I noticed that the history shows some recent tag team vandalism by what looks like an IP and a possible sock situation... user:Kaine65 and user:capitankane seem to be the same, given that capitan came to the article right after, and reverted in such a way that some vandalism was left in. Admin review please? SSP? RFCU? thoughts? ThuranX (talk) 22:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

inproper language[edit]

Resolved: user blocked 31 hours Toddst1 (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

See: This concerns a four letter F word directed at my person I can well do without. Can this IP be blocked?, rolling back does not help. Thanks in advance for your reply V8rik (talk) 21:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC}

Wikipedia is not censored. Blue Laser (talk)
True but personal attacks are not acceptable. A brief block was given for all the good it will do. JodyB talk 21:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
hmm, looks like an edit war to me Ziggy Sawdust 21:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, but look at the IP's contributions. This attack is not isolated. JodyB talk 21:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Edit war or not, that's a clear personal attack and as JodyB said is never acceptable. Toddst1 (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Roitr sock needs blocking[edit]

Can someone block Terikoso (talk · contribs) as a Roitr sock? (See WP:LTA/Roitr.) For the duck test, see this edit by Pasteriso (talk · contribs) (who checkusered as a likely Roitr sock) and the same edit repeated by Terikoso. Kelly hi! 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also created this page, a Roitr trick. Someone should probably protect that page against recreation or he will try again with a new sock. Kelly hi! 22:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Blocked. Given the other day's CU results, it seems this user is more active recently. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


This user, Ehccheehcche (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), has vandalized the page Super Saiyan after a final warning was given. I have brought this up here since my last vandal reports at WP:AIV were ignored. Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 22:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that removing a blank section heading really amounts to vandalism, especially since other editors there agree with the deletion. . This ed. has made a number of constructive edits, including the restoration of articles after vandalizing by anons. I do not think action is called for at this point. DGG (talk) 22:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

User seems to be SPA link spammer[edit]

Resolved: warned. Report to WP:AIV if spamming resumes. Toddst1 (talk) 02:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User has posted nothing except "spirit shop" linkspams to a number of school articles. This has happened in two batches over a period of a day, so it isn't a one-time thing. I've cleaned up the mess, but is there a chance that this IP is sufficiently static that it can be blocked? Loren.wilton (talk) 01:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)



Account name suggests single-purpose account. Hasn't made any productive edits, and history so far, and name, suggests it won't. John Nevard (talk) 01:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive, vandalism and obvious WP:POINT across multiple articles in rapid succession. Cirt (talk) 01:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I reported to WP:AIV and vandal was indef blocked by Trusilver (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 02:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

A minority of Web forum users planning vandalism[edit]

Resolved: The forum in question is not about to do something like this again. -Jéské (v^_^v Karistaa Usko) 06:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Over at WP:AIV someone recently reported this:

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to reports it (sorry, I'm new to this how editting wiki thing), but a webforum I use has launched a series of vandalism against a selection of articles in an attampt to play a game. Details here:

Might be worth watching. -- Roleplayer (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Browsing the forum pages, I notice that the vandalism has been quickly reverted and has resulted in some blocks. I suspect that the handful of vandalism edits the forum will generate will not survive recent changes patrol for long. Keep up the good work, gang! —Travistalk 19:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I've semi'd the articles being used as the latest post is telling users how to evade their IP blocks. -Jéské (v^_^v Karistaa Usko) 19:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
You might want to watch out for them changing articles about or relating to Neil Gaimen. There is a meme about him on said forum -- (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Said article is now semi'd. -Jéské (v^_^v Karistaa Usko) 21:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Just reverted at Neil Gaiman. Can I suggest a permanent block for Bikuki (talk · contribs) for being a vandalism only account? -- Roleplayer (talk) 21:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
This is quite comical actually. Where else can you get a running commentary on what they're going to do next? Look out for the next instalment: creating the Alternative Nation article (currently a redirect) --