Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive406

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Mr. Loner[edit]

A disruptive editor (Mr. Loner) on the Megarachne, Mesothelae and List of creatures in Primeval‎ is continuing to make unsourced claims in regards to Palaeozoic spiders, and whether T. rex is going to be on the British television program Primeval. Other editors have been reverting his edits for a number of weeks, but over the past few days I have left messages on his talk page trying to get him to stop, and recommend he read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability before he makes any future edits. However, he simply blanks his talk page and carries on as before. I fear this is becoming an edit war as I try to undo his edits. Do anyone have a recommendation about what should be done? The best, Mark t young (talk) 08:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

One point. The user is perfectly within their rights to blank their talk page. The controlling guideline can be found here, 8th bullet. In general, user talk pages are for communication, and are not intended to be a badge of shame to be forced onto someone. - TexasAndroid (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
True, but it wasn't that he was blanking it that is the issue. It was that concerns where made to him, and he reacted by blanking the page and carrying on making disruptive edits. Anyway, he has been blocked for 1 week for edit warring. Cheers, Mark t young (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
There were many posts last night by various anon editors that the T. Rex would be on that TV show. Not being aware of Mr.Loner, I don't know if these were socks or merely something that has become common rumor. Loren.wilton (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Prank phone calls[edit]

User Supernatural3 created a user page and posted phone numbers [1], purported to be those of celebrities, but stating they really weren't, and encouraging readers to make prank phone calls to them. If some person or organization has those numbers in some area code, they would not appreciate the posting on Wikipedia. I deleted the phone numbers and warned the user against such a practice. Has this come up before, and was my action correct in editing his user page? How much latitude is a user allowed on his user page? How far could the sanctions go if a user persists in such posting? Edison (talk) 15:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The only really permitted use of userspace is to tell people a bit about yourself, and for material relevant to improving the encyclopedia. As you say, a little latitude is allowed, but anything that's more trouble than it's worth, for us or anyone else, is clearly not in order, I'd say. TreasuryTagtc 16:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you did the right thing. I received prank/annoying phone calls from a vandal who somehow found out my phone number for about a week but I think he eventually got bored. I think in this case it is obvious that the user is not posting the numbers with any intention of helping Wikipedia so if they repost them then a block would be in order. James086Talk | Email 16:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, these need to be deleted from history as well, to be sure. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a larger ongoing campaign of phonenumber posting on userpages. See also User:Bryanwood343 where that user posted similar text about calling the phone numbers [2]. See the text also at User:Specialwolf where that user posted it [3]. What is the proper course here to prevent this? RFCU to sort out meatpuppets? Cleanup and warnings or block and protection? Edison (talk) 16:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd say block them all for now, and delete the userpages. Practically their only edits are to each other's user pages, anyway. An admin already deleted the revision containing phone numbers from the first page, and that, at least, should be done for them all. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 17:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think WP:OVERSIGHT might be in order for some of those cases. SWik78 (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed the numbers from the other two userpages. One of the pages has apparently been scrubbed of history with them by oversight, and the other two should get it. Is RFCU justified to see if they are in fact separate users? Edison (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
One of the three users, User:Bryanwood343 re-added the numbers to his talk page and added a personal attack against me [4] on the talk page of one of the others, for which I added an "Only warning" on User:Bryanwood343's talkpage. Too severe? Edison (talk) 23:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
"Too severe?" Heck, no! I would support you if you'd blocked him then and there! --Orange Mike | Talk 13:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
They've been blocked. See below: Wikipedia:Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents#Phone numbers. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 13:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Twinkles Gone Wild[edit]

Ziggy Sawdust (talk · contribs) recently installed Twinkle and has, for the past couple of days, been placing speedy tags on short articles indiscriminately. He was blocked for 30 minutes yesterday (at my request in the Twinkle IRC channel), which is probably the best example of a PREVENTATIVE block that I've ever seen, but did not bother address any of the concerns raised; instead, this morning he merely resumed with the same M.O.

Twinkle is a real problem if it lets people quickly and efficiently destroy the work of others without bothering to do anything constructive themselves, and without having to do any real work. We have too many "editors" who are only interested in doing this sort of "work" in the first place; we don't need to make it any easier for them. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 15:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I hate Twinkle abuse, but in doing a [very] quick [and shallow] look at his contribs, it looks like a lot of his tagged articles are getting deleted. *shrug*
Just as a general statement, I'm 100% okay with removing someone's installation of Twinkle and protecting their Monobook as a way of "insisting" they not abuse the tool. (yes, I'm aware that they can install the gadget; if they keep using Twinkle after having it forcibly removed, I'd consider it grounds for disruptive blocking) Not fully suggesting we do that here and now, just tossing it out there as an option if things go south. EVula // talk // // 16:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec)Surely an admin can simply remove Twinle from his monobook and then protect the page (not sure if that's possible), or warn him that if he edits the page then he'll be blocked? TreasuryTagtc 16:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ouch. It's like a newbie-biting incarnation of that infernal Microsoft paperclip: It seems that you've bungled an article creation... SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 10:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

My own experience, I've commented on 3 articles he sent to AFD. The articles had been in existance for 1min, 3min, and 5min. I'll abstain form recomending action, but at minimum there seems to be a lack of researching his own recomendations.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

EVula, the issue isn't whether or not many of the articles he tags are getting deleted--it's whether or not they should. Plenty of admins will delete all speedy noms without bothering to do any work themselves.
Frankly, the whole concept of "speedy deletion" is intrinsically broken, but that's another rant...right now the problem is this one individual going off the deep end. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 16:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, that comment was based off of a very brief, very unintrusive examination of his contribs; if I wasn't at work, I'd be willing to give it more than a few seconds of attention. I do agree that mindless tagging is a bad thing (though we disagree somewhat about speedy deletion), and it's something that should be addressed. I'd like to hear Ziggy's stance. EVula // talk // // 16:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid we won't. Although he has stopped Twinkling all over the place, it remains to be seen whether it's because he's giving up or because he just got a little tired and bored and plans on starting back up again. Regardless, he has made several edits since I notified him of this discussion. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 16:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
No he hasn't; you alerted him at :57[5], and his last (as of right now) edit was at :43.[6] You also didn't provide a direct link to the topic, which is a minor little quibble, but I can see a rather unknowledgable person not understanding that "Twinkles Gone Wild" (which is a great thread name, by the way) is talking about him, and he might not know to use his browser's Find feature to look for his name. EVula // talk // // 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, this is disgusting and on its own deserves a 24hr block in my opinion... at the least. TreasuryTagtc 16:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And I'm actually left somewhat speechless by this edit summary. I loves me some profanity, don't get me wrong, but... that just seems a bit out of place (though as it's self-directed, it's largely a non-issue, aside from making me go "wha?"). EVula // talk // // 16:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I've got to agree with Kurt Weber Ziggy has been (IMO) overusing Twinkle without looking into what he's nominating. He's being far too quick off the mark with what he's doing. --Julesn84 (talk) 16:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Semi-related to the above, simply blanking somebody's monobook doesn't always work. Unless you clear your cache, things removed from your monobook will often continue working. Additionally, Twinkle is now a gadget that can be enabled through an editors preferences, and there's nothing we can do to disable that. - auburnpilot talk 16:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    True, but if you let him know in no uncertain terms that he is not to use TW, then he'll have to stop or be blocked for disruption. TreasuryTagtc 16:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    Correct, which is why it would take a bit more of an eye to ensure that he doesn't use Twinkle. The edit summaries give any Twinkle edits away. Hadn't thought of the caching angle, though. EVula // talk // // 16:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, fine, I'll stop. (AFK for a while). Sorry for any destruction I might have caused. I'll just go back to wandering aimlessly through backlogs. Ziggy Sawdust 17:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ziggy has also developed a habit of accusing certain individuals of "disruption", simply because they merely created a bunch of articles that happened to get speedy-tagged (and perhaps even deleted). Creating an article that gets deleted, however legitimately so, is most emphatically not disruption, if it's done in good-faith and if the user appears cooperative. Threatening the banhammer with an "only warning" is NOT the answer, and I urge Ziggy Sawdust to reconsider what he's doing here as well. These users he is giving an "only warning" to have done nothing wrong. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 18:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I hate to agree with Kurt Weber because I think he makes inclusionism look bad, but Ziggy's record speaks for itself. Deletion rationales should at least be grounded in policy, not offhand and dismissive commentary on the article using IRC-level grammar. Article creators should be treated with some modicum of respect on the order of "we're sorry, but this doesn't meet our standards". A mistaken approach to article creation (the Lessmoore example above) should be coupled with some advice on how to do it better. A brand new article on an intrinsically notable topic may not look that way after the first edit. This is why we have WP:STUB tags. I strongly urge Ziggy to reconsider how to approach article deletion, and how to deal better with other editors. A bad article about a notable topic, even a really bad one, is by no means an emergency, BLP concerns obviously excepted. --Dhartung | Talk 04:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
    • I agree with Dhartung. I'd actually go further. Even a bad article on a non-notable topic isn't an emergency. It's often the first thing that a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed newbie does, upon discovering the many possible ways they can contribute to Wikipedia. Any good faith contribution from a new user is the start of a potentially valuable editor's stay here. (Looking at it from the other end, many great editors did some pretty silly things with their first few contribs; they just don't know any better.) The solution is teach them how we do things, ideally in such a way that the "wow, this is cool" factor increases. In case this needs saying, I'm not bashing Ziggy here. Quite obviously Ziggy's own contributions are made in good faith too, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban: User:JoshuaZ on Daniel Brandt[edit]

This ex-administrator has played a significant role in aggravating Wikipedia's conflict with Daniel Brandt, as seen in his attempts to bypass consensus on the Brandt deletion that was endorsed on DRV, yet again, on RFD this time. As User:JoshuaZ seems to be the integral player in sustaining the incredible conflict between Wikipedia and Daniel Brandt in the past year, as seen on his involvment DRVs #3, #4, #5, and now this new RFD, I sincerely question what good this user is doing for Wikipedia by sustaining this.

The whole damn mess would have been resolved and forgotten back in December 2007, were it not for JoshuaZ constantly picking and picking at Brandt to keep him up. This appears (apologies if this is a lapse in AGF) to be in part due to JoshuaZ himself being listed on the infamous Hivemind page where Brandt "outs" editors. The more important matter here is: is this really worth it, for us? Do we need to have a war every 1-3 months over Brandt? Do we need to allow this one user to constantly keep restarting the fight, every time the community checkmates him by consensus, to keep using different policy-wonk avenues to keep Brandt's article and redirect alive? How many times will we go through the AFD and DRV and RFD cycle, all initiated by or instigated by this one person? Enough. While Brandt's actions are patently harassment, JoshuaZ's actions here, in regards to Brandt, are the textbook example of harassment as well at this point. They can take it elsewhere.

For the good of the community, I put forth that User:JoshuaZ's services on Brandt, under any of his various usernames, is no longer needed. Enough. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Note As pointed out by Majorly below, JoshuaZ also double voted while an admin with his sock account Gothnic (talk · contribs) on a Brandt DRV. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I struck that btw. Majorly (talk) 18:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Snide insinuations aside, the bottom line is that I don't care about being on hivemind. So Lawrence's fundamental claim isn't warranted. If he's going to make any such attempted ban the least he could do is wait for the actual RfD discussion to be over and see if the community actually agrees with me or not. Oh, and since the closer of the last DRV was explicitly ok with this action Lawrence's fundamental premise there is flawed also. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • It didn't disagree with me about anything. Prodego agreed that there were timesenstive reasons for people endorsing that were only temporarily relevant which he wasn't aware of at the end of the DRV that made this closer to a no consensus. The closer of that DRV was fine with an RfD. And trying to have a legitimate community discussion hardly constitutes harassment by any stretch of the imagination. I suggest you stop with the personal attacks and baseless accusations. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Thatcher has already closed your RDF as a baseless end run against policy and has told you to stop cherry picking Prodego's closing comments here. Please do not be deceptive. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Lawrence, as I already pointed out to Thatcher I'm not cherry picking anything. It isn't my fault if you persist in not reading what I write. Prodego's close isn't where he said it. It was on his talk page which I've linked to for Thatcher. This discussion occurred after the close. I explained this already. Try reading what people write instead of assuming the worst possible faith and then assuming that reality fits that. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The comment from Prodego at User:Prodego/archive/61#Daniel_Brandt was: "My view is: I don't think it is necessary, and will not do it myself. But I have no problems if you do. Prodego talk 20:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)" That is hardly an endorsement of the RFD. That is, "Sure, do it if you want, since you're entitled to try anything." That's different than, "My close was bunk." Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Lawrence there's no need to have the same discussion in a dozen different places so for now I'll just ask you to look at my reply to you on Thatcher's talk page. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Negative, this discussion needs to be in a public forum. Your reply on Thatcher's page is that Prodego apparently signed off on this harassment off-Wiki. Well, no. We don't decide critical issues off-wiki, and your actions here are meritous in my view of a topic ban. Why you insist on battling so aggressively as you're already in trouble for sockpuppetry baffles me. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Wikipedia is not a battleground for someone's campaign - no matter people's views on the target. The community has spoken on this matter, and further attempts to rekindle this nonsense are disruption bordering on outright trolling.--Docg 16:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I must say I've never seen the arbitration committee or the community ever ban a user from a topic which no longer exists (even if most of us are in fact serving various de facto topic bans in this and similar cases). In all seriousness I don't think this would be helpful. — CharlotteWebb 16:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The community can come up with novel solutions to novel problems. How would it be helpful if Joshua were free to constantly fight the Brandt War, again and again, until he gets satisfaction? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There were repeated nominations when there was a consensus to keep. Now, there is a consensus not to, and those favouring deletion want to ban those they disagree with from expressing their opinion on the topic? J Milburn (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • No, this is a move to ban the ringleader of what has become on-Wiki harassment of a BLP subject. If any uninvolved user to DRV Daniel Brandt I would have no objection, but for an entrenched warrior on the Brandt and Hivemind Wars like Joshua to do this again and again smacks of retaliation, disruption, and harassment. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Would you be opposed (this is hypothetical, at least in the short term) to me doing it? I first got involved in the whole thing in the final AfD, and I have taken part in some DRVs; no more than 3 or 4, and only 1 for certain (without looking). I'm just wondering who, in your idea of whatever principle this is based on, is allowed to disagree with you. J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Anyone can disagree with me. I know this will be an unpopular request, but if we have a problem with Brandt harassing Wikipedians the same courtesy must extend back the other way. JoshuaZ has been the principle figure in agitating the on-Wiki conficts related to this. My call for his being barred from Brandt issues is simply related to the fact that this endless drama cycle would be long since passed were JoshuaZ not keeping the home fires burning for months and months now. We've outright indefinitely banned users for causing less disruption. Telling Joshua he cannot work on this one matter out of a big encyclopedia is trivial. If you were to file a valid DRV with sound policy reasoning to review the last close and consensus, that is your right. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The endless cycle would have ended long before JoshuaZ started his 'disruption' if it had not been repeatedly nominated in the first place. By the last AfD, there were plenty of people saying 'delete, so this ends'. I stand by my assertion that the repeated nominations in the first place were downright disruptive; I can't see why you consider that fine, but JoshuaZ (who has sound reasoning) is 'disruptive'. J Milburn (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The effective standing consensus, by far majority, has been to eliminate Brandt from Wikipedia--this since approximately last December or so. Since then, we've had nearly all the DRVs. 14 different people nominated Brandt for deletion and another what, half dozen admins pulled the trigger as speedy deletes? At least 16-17 people were key in trying to get it deleted. One person has been the central antagonist in running the DRV show for the past approximately half-year. Today was the cake, though, taking the closing admin's comments out of context, taking it to RFD (an out of the way rarely seen place, rather than DRV #6 where it belongs), and then having the gall to challenge Thatcher's close of the RFD as inappropriate--not to mention as Doc details below, by Josh's own words the RFD was payback to Brandt. Why again do we need Joshua's help on Brandt matters? If he can't work or comment on Brandt matters, Wikipedia will hum along just fine. We don't need JoshuaZ here working the Brandt show, and we certainly don't need him trying to restart his little Brandt intifada every few weeks or months by launching mortars at Brandt and Wikipedia Review. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Were it true that there was ever consensus to delete the Daniel Brandt article, then someone should be able to point to a standing AfD in which the article was deleted. The fact that you can't do so show's that there's never been consensus for the way things currently stand, no matter how much some parties would like to pretend otherwise. -- Kendrick7talk 04:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. I agree with the proposed solution. The issue long since settled ought not be rekindled at regular intervals. To quote a line I observed on ANI somewhere recently... Josh <-- way, and DB issues --> way. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 16:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Although I do not agree with Joshua's decisions, it isn't likely that a topic ban here would bring any improvement to the underlying drama. Given that Mr. Brandt's past actions were singlehandedly responsible for the creation of the WP:BAN#Coercion policy clause, this proposal could have the effect of placing a new card in his hand. At Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Clarifications_and_motions yesterday I opposed the notion that a sitebanned editor's preference has any bearing on who does or doesn't get a topic ban after they're gone. Mr. Brandt's choices have made him more notable; a few months ago his interactions with Wikipedia were a major element of a Harvard thesis. Periodic reviews for notability are appropriate for borderline BLPs (not too frequent I hope), and a topic ban here may have a chilling effect on any legitimate contemplation of future review. If there were any likelihood that Mr Brandt would move happily along with the rest of his life this proposal might be worth entertaining, but this has been a person who consistently generates fresh grievances where no provocation exists, so what would be the preventative value of a topic ban on JoshuaZ? If anything, it might be beneficial that he does stir the pot from time to time, because it temporarily distracts Mr. Brandt from trampling upon the privacy of even more of this nonprofit website's volunteers. DurovaCharge! 17:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Durova, are you actually advocating thus that we allow one use to wage war on the wishes of a BLP subject because having that annoyance factor from the BLP subject has benefits to Wikipedia editors? If so, I'm very disappointed. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • My reasons for supporting this have nothing to do with the merits or otherwise on the redirect. They have to do with the fact that Joshua is seeking to use Wikipedia's content discussion to wage a war on a non-Wikipedian he dislikes. We cannot say "we will pay no attention to Brandt's threats - because content stands independent of conduct" and then say "we will restore this to punish him for his activity". Here is what Joshua gave as his reasoning in the RfD "However, it then became apparent that as I had predicted Brandt had no intention to stop his campaign on Wikipedia. He has essentially [[7]] to continue his harassment and disruption until any mention of him be removed (see his comment that "I'm mentioned too many times on Public_Information_Research and I have some quarrel with that, as it threatened to become a substitute for my bio once the redirect was in place" Therefore I am relisting this redirect. I'd say using wikipedia in an off-wiki dispute is entirely unacceptable.--Docg 16:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose I do not know why JoshuaZ wanted to keep this article, although he probably had good reasons. Nevertheless, I think that the assumption that JoshuaZ's activities are exacerbating a negative relationship with Mr. Brandt appear to be unfounded, from my investigations into this matter.--Filll (talk) 16:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Read his reasons for yourself. But is looks like "let's stick one in his eye" to me.--Docg 17:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • This can equally look like "let's stick one in his eye" when viewed from the other side. Take this to arbitration if you think there is a real problem with behaviour here. No need to resort to dividing the community over a topic ban. Carcharoth (talk) 17:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • According to Lawrence Cohen on Thatcher's talk page, JoshuaZ has already bent some rules as it is. Surely this topic ban would be a low level way of avoiding future issues? George The Dragon (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Yes, Brandt's actions are "patently harassment". No sanctions (not even low-level) unless there are clear, willful and egregious violations on the part of our editors here, over this mess. R. Baley (talk) 17:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC) Neutral for now, if someone could point to where the socking was confirmed, I'd appreciate it (if for privacy that needs to be an email, that's ok). I will only support, though, if (1) the socking is confirmed and, (2) it is absolutely clear that the topic ban rests on the abusive use of one or more alternate accounts, not on bringing up a sore subject alone. R. Baley (talk) 17:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose.(addendum to the above by R. Baley (talk)) It would appear that the socking charge has no foundation. I find it troubling that once again off-wiki activity has influenced our perceptions of each other and inflamed our reactions. And let me just state for the record, that I have yet to see anything from JoshuaZ that demonstrates *anything* other than, that he is vigorous proponent for his vision of wikipedia. His every action including and since the voluntary de-sysop has been to downplay drama (my interpretation) something everyone claims to want, but in his case something that he actually did. Move to close this thread and DENY any recognition or satisfaction to outside party(ies). R. Baley (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Really, Durova says it all succinctly. But from the "why should I give AGF to someone proposing a ban to a great editor", this looks like revenge on JoshuaZ, plain and simple. Whatever LC's real motives, this doesn't look good. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • There is an additional diff above a few lines posted by me. REgards, NonvocalScream (talk) 17:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I've had nothing to do with the Brandt mess before DRV #5. My motivation is to stop someone from prolonging this off-Wiki conflict here another six months, as JoshuaZ has given no indication of being willing to stop. I can't have revenge on someone I've had no real conflict with before! Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support The one man battle against windmills must be stopped. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 17:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

*Support Lawrence forgot to mention that Joshua double voted in several Brandt related discussions using a sockpuppet Gothnic (talk · contribs), thus attempting to skew consensus to his own personal view. This silly obsession has to stop, now. Article (or lack of it) banning seems the best solution in my view. Majorly (talk) 17:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Is there some evidence somewhere that User:Gothnic is a sockpuppet of JoshuaZ? That account has voted in a few other instances with JoshuaZ (here and here and here for example), too, so if it is a sockpuppet, that's rather worrisome. --Conti| 17:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Please provide proof that this account is a sockpuppet, abusive or otherwise. And if it's not, does Majorly get sanctioned for spreading false information? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • These allegations are problematic, if true. I don't see history of a RFCU though or anything in JoshuaZ's blocklog to support the sockpuppetry claims. -- Kendrick7talk 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose This whole mess really needs to head towards arbitration. WP:CCC, people. Since there's currently no community consensus on whether either an article or a redirect on Daniel Brandt should or should not exist, certain admins who are happy with the status quo simply want to stop further discussion towards a new consensus. This is a case in point, imo. -- Kendrick7talk 17:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Why do admins who abusively sock get to hand in their tools in private while users who abusively sock are shamed in public? George The Dragon (talk) 17:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - I'm absolutely no fan whatsoever of Daniel Brandt, having been on Hivemind myself, but this aggravation needs to stop and everyone needs to move on - Alison 17:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per Majorly Alison. Sceptre (talk) 17:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, my thoughts on this may be much like Alison's. Moreover, how utterly nettlesome if a sock was brought in on this. (stricken out following Majorly's retraction) Gwen Gale (talk) 17:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per Alison and especially Majorly. -- Naerii 17:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per Majorly; when you start socking to push a pointrefactored *shrug* the point stands though it is very clear that JoshuaZ needs to step away from the subject; and if not, needs to be made to do so. If someone wants to waste everyone's time again by dragging this through DRV, it should not be him. Black Kite 17:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, and Majorly's information is a bit incomplete. It's actually three accounts abused, as well as logging out repeatedly to support them. Double-voting occured at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 December 9 and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Daniel Brandt 2, as well as various occasions of triple voting elsewhere, and even the closing of a DRV that he artificially stacked. Once you start gravitating towards conduct this unseemly to get the upper hand, it's game over. east.718 at 17:45, April 22, 2008 Assuming the best per below (haven't received any information, and frankly I don't care enough). east.718 at 18:17, April 22, 2008
    • Ok to be clear. I never socked. I wouldn't sock. The accused socking was frankly incompetent. I have a pretty decent explanation of what seems to have happened and I'm more than willing to email any user in good standing a summary of the relevant evidence which the ArbCom has seen and is still as I understand it evaluating. JoshuaZ (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Joshua, a suggestion. Rather than offering a lot of us email evidence of why you didn't sock, why not post it here? It would be a lot more transparent! George The Dragon (talk) 17:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
        • I can offer some of the evidence here but not all. Part of it requires disclosing very personal information regarding my medical history while other elements involve details of checkuser data. JoshuaZ (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
          • Majorly has now struck his comment so it may no longer be worthwhile. But for the sake of openness, could you confirm you handed in your tools due to a sockpuppetry allegation that was put to you off Wiki? George The Dragon (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
            • I can confirm that. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. I found myself here after researching JoshuaZ's history related to deletion arguments. I was trying to understand why this obviously nice person (I've met him, too) was so very passionate about those related issues. After seeing him claim Brandt's harassment as part of a justification for undeleting some page that might upset Brandt [8], I was pretty much forced to conclude that JoshuaZ needs a break from Daniel Brandt, and probably from deletion in general. :( A break can do marvelous things for a person. :) --Gmaxwell (talk) 18:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Well it is good to know you think I'm a nice person. I've always thought I'm a bit of a jerk in person (the whole lack of a preview button in real life seems to have a lot of bad results). In any event, you misunderstand my logic there. My point is that we deleted the redirect in part under the assumption that Brandt would stop harassing people as a result. That assumption is at this point clearly false. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I have stricken my comment above due to information I have received which shows I jumped the gun a bit when I made that comment. My apologies. I suggest everyone who voted "per Majorly" to think again. Still, I think Josh seriously needs a break from this article. Majorly (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I understand, the accusation of socking is demonstrably false. And I am yet to be convinced that the only reason Brandt is behaving in an unpleasant fashion is because of JoshuaZ.--Filll (talk) 18:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's demonstrably false, but I have enough doubt about it that WP:AGF applies. DurovaCharge! 18:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't support an outright topic ban because I think we can trust JoshuaZ, but I would simply request he remove himself from the topic. Not that he couldn't participate in discussions if the dispute arises again, but that he -restrain himself- from the Brandt topic, and we could all move on. A noticeboard post, an arbitration proposal, allegations of sockpuppetry, bickering, name-calling... all could be avoided, I think, if JoshuaZ simply voluntarily removes himself from the topic. We don't need the community to fight this one out. So, JoshuaZ, I implore you to help cease this fight by simply voluntarily removing yourself from the topic. Mahalo nui loa, JoshuaZ. --Ali'i 18:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose an absurd situation where ANI/I is used as a venue to impose restrictions on an editor without any evidence of attempts at dispute resolution, discussion or mediation. I've looked over the evidence provided, Daniel Brandt is evidently someone publicly visible on the internet who chooses to harass WP editors and demands no biography, or even a redirect which does no more than avoid the one step of a search. There's nothing wrong with discussion on whether it's best to let such deletions go, but imposing formal restrictions on editors on that basis is out of order. .. dave souza, talk 18:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • That's close. Daniel Brandt is actually an individual who spent his entire life building an encyclopedia of BLPs (NameBase), and, one can imagine, enduring endless harassment because of it. His entire goal in getting his biography deleted is to demonstrate to the world that wikipedia is a failure because it gives in to such harassment. It's WP:GAME writ large. -- Kendrick7talk 19:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose- due to this not being Brandt's sole or main reason for doing what he's doing. We won't stop Brandt just by removing mentions of him. He may sometimes claim that's why he outs wikipedians, in order to make people change mentions of him, but a lot of other times he says he believes all admins should use their real names in order to be accountable, so he will list them as people have a right to know, or something like that .(I don't agree with him). He has threatened to out and half outed someone over their responses to a thread about Jon Aubrey on here, so he's not just doing it about his own articles/mentions but thinks on principle that those who h thinks have been nasty about BLPs or people under their real names and allow them to be googlable on wiki and other stuff, should be outed in kind, as he considers that the same as outing. But in actuality he outs or lists even people who've done nothing wrong to BLPs, such as Alison and NewYorkBrad, so he clearly just thinks all admins should be listed there, IMHO.Merkin's mum 19:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. JoshuaZ's campaigns against multiple 'anti-wikipedia folks on the 'net makes him a target, which just gets him moreriled up, to go poke more fate bears. He seems to think it's his job to uphold the highest standards of inclusionism on these few articles for the purpose of pissing off the subjects. That he's resorted to socking to try to get his way makes it worse. I've read about his socking, and it's pretty clear cut socking. If he stops pissing them off, will they stop? Unlikely. But at least the things they like to rage about most can be eliminated or reduced, making them seem more like windbags and spoiled children than real, intellectual detractors, which they aren't. He needs a topic ban. As some like to say "go write an article." ThuranX (talk) 19:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, seems to be necessary after reading all the comments here. Wizardman 20:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban, the repeated rehashing of this debate is getting tiresome and disruptive. Its getting very difficult to continue assuming good faith. Mr.Z-man 20:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per Durova, whose reasoning is impeccable and eloquent. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 21:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support This crap has got to stop. Jtrainor (talk) 21:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose on the grounds that the logic is ill-founded and Lawrence's statement to the effect that everything would have blown over smacks of conjecture at best, and an attempt to delude the WP population into believing that he can read Brandt's mind at worst. Also, given that it appears that consensus on this issue has waffled more than a sweating politician, I fail to see a "case" here. (And, yes, this crap has got to stop. Work on the encyclopedia, write an article, etc., blah, blah.) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;dissera! 21:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • I've been writing some articles. Some more lined up tonight. I suggest that people do this whenever someone says "Work on the encyclopedia, write an article, etc., blah, blah.". Maybe this could start a trend? Carcharoth (talk) 21:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose JoshuaZ clarified this issue with the admin who closed the last DRV discussion. Even I had asked WJB if he would have been ok with a RfD, and he saw no problem with that (though he didn't want to undelete the redirect for the duration of the RfD). JoshuaZ is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing, and there is absolutely no disruption going on here, at all. JoshuaZ has been far more calmer than I have in regards to this situation, and has acted appropriately far more often than not. This comes down to "JoshuaZ hasn't dropped this", but the fact is that JoshuaZ shouldn't drop this, and he's not being disruptive. I was ready to start an arbcom request until JoshuaZ stopped me, saying that he was already talking to the DRV closing admin. If anything, his actions have helped keep the dispute within reasonable limits. -- Ned Scott 21:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - I am unimpressed with JoshuaZ's use of the admin tools with regards to this article [9] wheel warring (albeit over a long period of time) to restore the history. In the deleted history, this edit summary (admin only) bothers me and I think presents a fundamental disconnect with the now-demonstrated will of the Wikipedia community. It makes it a personal issue and that's the whole problem here. It's time to move on with life and quit bringing up Brandt every few months. --B (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    "with the now-demonstrated will of the Wikipedia community" That is a complete load of bull. And your assertion that this is a personal issue is false. The way this situation was handled brings shame to all Wikipedians, and he is trying to correct that. -- Ned Scott 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    Was the "quit bringing up Brandt" remark aimed at Lawrence Cohen, who's just brought him up? The idea that bending over and doing everything Brandt might like is going to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia is ludicrous. .. dave souza, talk 22:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Hopefully this will lessen the vinegaring of Wikipedia Review by Mr Brandt, as it is getting in the way of enjoying Somey's humour... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (real reason in edit summary)
  • Support for the good of the project as a whole. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Joshua has been one of the calmest people dealing with this situation. Banning him from dealing with it is probably the worst solution for this situation, which was not caused by Joshua, and would have gotten this far without his involvement. -- Ned Scott 23:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. For the sake of minimsing drama, JZ can ask someone else if he really desperately needs a discussion on the merits of Brandt. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - not only on substantial, but also on procedural grounds. Anyone voting to oppose this topic ban must weigh the risk of being added to the Hivemind. Quite frankly, I can't see how any result can be considered valid, not when voting for one side (but not the other) may place your personal safety at risk. Guettarda (talk) 02:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
    • While I appreciate the sentiment if we followed that logic we'd never be able to discuss anything where there were serious external threats involved. While it might be relevant when trying to determine consensus for this sort of thing it shouldn't be used to short-circuit any discussion. Furthermore, I think the vast majority of users aren't that intimidated by that sort of threat anyways. JoshuaZ (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose, can't see proof that JoshuaZ is deliberately being disruptive. It is clear that a significant part of the community thinks that a decent encyclopedia should have information on Mr. Brandt but that it's too tiring to fight with him about it, but that does not mean we should stop even talking about whether we should have an article or redirect or whatever or not. Anyway, much more review of the facts is necessary to decide such a topic ban. Go to WP:RFAR and file a full request (including full evidence from both sides and all) if you think a topic ban is necessary. Kusma (talk) 09:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that JoshuaZ has brought more heat than light to this area and his activities are starting to look like a fixation. I don't think further work in this area by him is likely to be helpful, there are thousands of users with less involvement. Therefore I support a restriction on JoshuaZ's activities in this area as suggested. ++Lar: t/c 13:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Lar, considering all the people who do want to continue the discussion on this (myself included) I am extremely thankful to have Joshua around as a cool headed user who does his best to lessen the drama, while still dealing with the situation. Users with less involvement will more than likely not be able to handle the situation was well as Joshua has. The heat with this situation is inevitable (since WJB deleted it without a discussion), and not something you can fairly blame Joshua for. -- Ned Scott
  • Strong oppose. Really, after going through all of AfDs and DRVs for Brandt, I don't think it should have ever been deleted in the first place. I think he's in the middle area of notability, and I see no evidence that shows that a balanced, NPOV article can never be written about him. Regarding the user himself, it shouldn't matter ; this is an issue that needs to be reexamined so the project may continue to improve rather than ignore its past. Celarnor Talk to me 19:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I don't see JoshuaZ causing any disruption, and moreover many of the above arguments allude to sockpuppeteering; I find such insinuations, before the ArbCom has made a decision regarding their validity, to be wholly incompatible with assuming good faith. Evouga (talk) 19:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support but would prefer a voluntary abstention from the user. Has an attempt to achieve that been made? If it has and has failed point blank, then I think the community might need to provide guidance. Many Wiki editors (myself included) have had times in times past when they've been overly attentive to one set of matters to the exclusion of their own sanity. I've run into JoshuaZ before on BLP deletion debates, I found him to be a rather enthusiastic inclusionist who saw fit to open or support the opening of process after process to get any contrary decision reviewed. Orderinchaos 20:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • WJB made an extremely controversial and out of process deletion, and there are major hints that people were endorsing to keep the redirect deleted at DRV because of recent threats made by Brandt to a wiki editor. That is a far cry from saying he started a discussion simply because he disagreed personally. Joshua stopped me from filing an Arbcom case on the matter, to lessen the drama. Joshua isn't the problem here, and is actually one of the best users we have to deal with the situation. -- Ned Scott 04:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


I have asked for a review from the arbs. I believe there to be larger issue here, and I think RFAR may be the best venue. I'm not asking the committee to ban, but I want this examined. RFAR. NonvocalScream (talk) 17:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure arbitration is the way to go, and I have no opinion at this time on the topic ban. However, the disruption of the user (and others) regarding Mr. Brandt's articles really needs to stop. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Has there been an RfC on this user? Only that usually happens before it goes to the Arbs and it hopefully is usually enough.Merkin's mum 20:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
JoshuaZ is not causing any disruption, let us be absolutely clear about that. This issue is far from over, and it's entirely within the community's right to continue discussions about it. -- Ned Scott 21:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Intent of arbitration[edit]

Please be sure to understand that my request was not designed to subvert this discussion, and this discussion can continue re topic ban. There is no fourm shopping. Understand that I wanted other things looked at as well. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Can we please...[edit]

Not vote on restrictions? WP:CSN died because of that, doing it here puts this place in hot water too. Kwsn (Ni!) 02:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What? Per that Deletion decision, this IS exactly the place to build community sanction consensus. ThuranX (talk) 04:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
We don't have votes for banning at any noticeboard. Not nowhere, not nohow. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Thuran, there's a clear vote above my comment, filled with supports and opposes to the ban. It's not a consensus, it's a poll result. Kwsn (Ni!) 06:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Per FT2 of the Arbcom, this sort of question is something that the community needs to ponder. (Or maybe I'm reading that wrong.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying it isn't, but the method used to determine whether a topic ban should be imposed or not is not the right way to go about it. Kwsn (Ni!) 13:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, if this method's invalid, then the inclusionists must be orgasming repeatedly, because every AfD sports the same sort of !vote sort of bolding to summarize positions. Further, I don't see anyone calling THIS a vote, and most have some amount of rationale for this. In fact, the clear nature of support and opposition makes it more likely that a CLEAR consensus will emerge, rather than watching each side POV push to get their interpretation out of ANY possibly ambiguous responders. This is a strawman designed to protect JoshuaZ and deny the community the chance to create a clear consensus. ThuranX (talk) 03:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


So it seems to my reading that a) there is no consensus for a general ban on this topic and b) many users who I deeply respect think I should either be banned or should at best take a break from this subject. So I am going to make a simple compromise proposal which will hopefully handle most concerns in a way that makes a maximum fraction of individuals happy. Proposal; I will not start any discussions about any attempt to restore any Brandt related content. This wouldn't stop me from editing say Public Information Research or Scroogle or something similar but would prevent me from say starting a DRV on the Brandt article or a the redirect or the CIA cookie exposure (Yes I still remember that. As far as I'm concerned it was one of the best things Brandt has ever done). Dihydrogen Monoxide a bit above this makes a highly reasonable argument for this sort of position. JoshuaZ (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you JoshuaZ for being calm and willing to compromise. I for one think this is a reasonable solution (per my request above). Mahalo. --Ali'i 14:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this proposal is reasonable and would address most of the concerns. If you don't start any discussions (or ask others to start them on your behalf), don't create any new articles about Brandt, and, should you regain the admin tools, don't take any admin actions on any Brandt articles, then I think most concerns here are satisfied. --B (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, JoshuaZ. This is exactly the way this kind of conversation should be resolved; it is much more edifying than the rather silly voting we see above. Sam Korn (smoddy) 19:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this is sufficient, rather than continuing to argue over something which is never going to gain enough support. --Haemo (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Uh, hell no. The offending editor gets to make the closing proposal? That's like letting Nixon judge all the Watergate facts and stay in office (see Watchmen). let's see where this actually goes. Otherwise, I'm going to insist that self-imposed consequences become official policy here, because self-rule like that will surely be good for all editors if it's good for one. I, for one, judge the line between blunt speech and incivility to be much further away than others do, and Icould then give myself a pass on all such incidences! ThuranX (talk) 03:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Joshua, I don't think it's fair that you have to make this needless sacrifice, especially considering that you've handled these situations very well, and far better than most Wikipedians. To everyone else, this is further proof that Joshua has not been disruptive over this situation, and has the project's best interests at heart. Shame on all of you who endorsed a topical ban. -- Ned Scott 04:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I need opinion on Mediation Cases and Point of view pushing[edit]

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-22 Alpha Phi Alpha‎
Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-22 List of Alpha Phi Alpha brothers‎

There have been a number of reverts to material that I have inserted into the Alpha Phi Alpha article. Miranda has reverted it [10], Robotam [11], and CCson [12].
Based from this [13], It should be noted for the record that Ccson has a direct conflict of interest with the Alpha Phi Alpha article, as he is a member of the orgainization and the article's primary contributor. The vast majority of his edits relate to Alpha Phi Alpha only . This conflict of interest has started to become disruptive as the editor marks changes not made by him as vandalism, issues capricious warnings and is adamantly against the achieved consensus. The article's edit history reflects that. Robotam also has a conflict of interest as a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. This COI is noted as they have both openly declared on their user pages that they have formal affiliation with Alpha Phi Alpha. While this is not directly the issue, it does deserve to be noted because this discussion is happening because of their unwillingness to accept community consensus on the originating discussion and to reflect their desire to have the Alpha Phi Alpha article reflect their POV rather what many sources state.

Now in many of the citations listed in the articles we are given things like "^ a b Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp. 15–16. ^ a b Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp. 19–27. ^ Wesley 1981, op. cit., pp.26–31, 92. " The problem with this is access. Unless you have access to the book this History of Alpha Phi Alpha by Charles Wesley you really can't verify the information. I have listed a book that can be searched by Charles Wesley called "Charles H. Wesley: The Intellectual Tradition of a Black Historian " [14]. This book is by the same author. It also allows references to easily be sourced.

There have been other cases involving some of these users who have run into conflict with other users involving these articles.

Which shows some of the conflict that has come about as a result of people interactions in these articles. RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand your content dispute on Alpha Phi Alpha, but I'm not entirely certain why I am included, since I haven't reverted any of your proposed changes. The issues that User:Miranda and I have with each other are not related to this content dispute. Justinm1978 (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Justinm1978 included you because of your past interactions with all 3 of these users. From what I saw here as well. [18]. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated. thank you.RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What admin action is necessary here? As these mediation cases were just filed today, I would recommend that you give mediation some time to hash out the issues you raise. Posting the dispute here in addition to those two (very similar) cases is unlikely to be productive. No comment on the merits. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like an admin just to watch, possibly comment on the mediation cases. RobertOgleFan (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not participating because I think this is a sock of a banned user. miranda 17:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Miranda did a checkuser on me and I was shown to not be related. Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/SexyNupe2000 [19] RobertOgleFan (talk) 17:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

First, checkuser doesn't totally prove a sock's innocence. A banned user could be traveling to other computers in other states or use proxies. Second, I feel like that the user is bringing out drama without consulting the steps of dispute resolution. He should start on the talk page. No administrator action is necessary. miranda 21:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate of a minor Wikipedian[edit]

I removed the birthdate of Jacob Green696 from an infobox on his userpage. He's fifteen. I left him a note pointing to identity theft as a reason why posting such information is a bad idea. With minors though, it's even more complicated. Do we have a policy that addresses this? Should the information be oversighted? He also lists his full name. Aleta Sing 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It's fine, people are allowed to release their own details. TreasuryTagtc 17:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think there is a policy. There is an essay based on a request for arbitration. --OnoremDil 17:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Should be Oversighted to protect the minor. (Hypnosadist) 17:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec)Personally, I think that if they're fifteen then they're "major" enough to know that it's dumb to give out your details online. If he's an idiot, that's his problem, he must know the dangers. TreasuryTagtc 17:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, he was not yet fifteen when he added it. He also did not object to the removal, instead thanking me for it. So do I send an email to request the oversight? Aleta Sing 18:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, he states (and I have not removed) what day is his fifteenth birthday, which allows anyone to easily deduce the birthdate. Aleta Sing 17:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not every 15 year old knows everything. Yes their told not to put out personal information online, but they don't think anything will happen from it. I know I did when I was that age, even younger. I don't think there is a policy or anything that states minors can't post their birthdates, so I don't think it's much of a problem. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)(EC) I think give him a message on his talk page, explaining what oversight is, and let him decide if he wants it oversighted. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea! I'll do that. Aleta Sing 18:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and left a message on his page, feel free to add to it.<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I did (and apologized for not having notified him of this thread myself). Aleta Sing 18:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks for helping me out/backing me up, although I basically did the same thing for you tee-hee. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'm here.I guess I proboly shouldn't have put it on there. I was just excited about being to make a infobox I out all my info in there.I'll be careful from now on.Mr. Greenchat 18:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't feel too bad, I've seen a boy put his full name, school, town and date of birth up before! (I removed it and explained to him.) Merkin's mum 19:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jason Leopold[edit]

I recently posted on the BLP noticeboard requesting some extra eyes on this article, but I am not sure how much attention that board gets. It seems Mr. Leopold has his lawyer (or someone claiming to be) now editing this article and issuing quite an onslaught of legal threats and the such. Would anyone be willing to weigh in on this? Arkon (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Can we get some range blocks here? Grsztalk 19:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I have full-protected the page on the least-negative version (per BLP, when in doubt, leave it out) and suggest that this be debated on the talk page. It is certainly unacceptable to call someone "controversial" in the first line of their biography. FCYTravis (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who looked at this. Arkon (talk) 19:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I also posted about this to the BLP/N and have actually been in contact with Mr Leopold, via an IP address. He's pissed because he believes the article misrepresents some of his statements, makes false statements about his journalistic integrity which he disputes, among other things. For example, one of the versions included the line "past liar, convicted felon and former alcoholic and cocaine addict" verbatim. There's a line to be drawn between "hagiography" and "BLP violation" and this article does not tread it very well. Remember WP:DOLT. --Haemo (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
why are we fucking around here? let's not "revert to the less negative article" - aggressively stub the article and start again from scratch. We are far better off with a stubbed and sourced paragraph than an article of dubious quality. -- (talk) 20:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In general (I haven't looked at everything in the article, I just reverted wholesale removal of cited material from RS's) the article is well sourced for any critical statements. He doesn't like it, that much is obvious, but that isn't reason to stub it. Arkon (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Don't deep Link Google Books PDF!![edit]

What's going on here? Ziggy Sawdust 21:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

inproper language[edit]

Resolved: user blocked 31 hours Toddst1 (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

See: This concerns a four letter F word directed at my person I can well do without. Can this IP be blocked?, rolling back does not help. Thanks in advance for your reply V8rik (talk) 21:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC}

Wikipedia is not censored. Blue Laser (talk)
True but personal attacks are not acceptable. A brief block was given for all the good it will do. JodyB talk 21:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
hmm, looks like an edit war to me Ziggy Sawdust 21:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, but look at the IP's contributions. This attack is not isolated. JodyB talk 21:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Edit war or not, that's a clear personal attack and as JodyB said is never acceptable. Toddst1 (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked sockpuppet of User:Camptown[edit]

Hi, I blocked User:Bondkaka as a sockpuppet of User:Camptown based on continuing use of the sock for voting and other shows of support as specifically barred by the sock policy.

He used the sockpuppet to select his own nominations for the 'did you know?' template on main page (by listing them on the next update page). Here are the first diffs from Bondkaka's 5 most recent batches on t:dyk/n, every time the article was initially listed by user:camptown as shown in the 'credits' section: [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. He also used the sock to show support on his position on Camptown's candidates for the 'in the news' section of main page. Here are the 6 most recent comments on wp:itn/c (barring spelling and formatting edits): [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30]. There are more shows of support on various other talk pages, and pretty much every edit I checked from the past few months was in support of camptown, either in reverting to his preferred version, or discussing issues on talk pages.

And now he's threatening to leave the project if the sock isn't unblocked :"Enough is enough. You have wrongly accused me of creating sock puppetry – and block the innocent user Bondkaka based on his DYK-nominations, spreading false accusations that I created user Bondkaka for my own benefit. If you don't unblock user Bondkaka immediately, I will seriously consider leaving this project." --Camptown.

I'm bringing it to a wider forum since he's disputing the issue. Comments are appreciated, thanks. - Bobet 21:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Fully endorse block. Daniel (talk) 04:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

 Confirmed I don't know what the point of that was. Nothing really wrong with self-nomming so why bother? :( Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Add to that self-selecting isn't really strictly forbidden but is considered to be a bit undignified...If something's running late, simply nagging another DYK regular would be totally fine. :( Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Difficult TfD close[edit]

The sorts of issues raised in this TfD are not the type of issues normally covered in an RfA. Considering this seems to be more of a factual rather than a consensus dispute, and considering that concerning those factual dimensions I am out of my depth, I bring it before the noticeboard to see what other admins might think (or know). RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 21:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


Resolved: No issue with User:RyRy5Toddst1 (talk) 22:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Something needs to be done here. Significant amount of admin and editor time are tied up in babysitting this user and his edits. A quick glance through the history of his talk page shows he has no understanding of Wikipedia, lacks the maturity to work in a collaborative environment and still attempts to 'mentor' other editors despite warnings not to do so. There is no evidence that he, User:Nothing444, User:Basketball110 and/or Stormtracker94 are providing any benefit to the project. Thoughts? Standatoms1985 (talk) 21:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Without wishing to comment at this stage, do you mean User:RyRy5, User:Nothing444, User:Stormtracker94 and User:Basketball110? George The Dragon (talk) 21:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you're being much too harsh. While I agree that they aren't the most mature editors around, they've still helped contribute to the encyclopedia. bibliomaniac15 Do I have your trust? 21:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
[ec]Harsh words coming from someone who themselves has yet to demonstrate "any benefit to the project" to provide specific examples? — Scientizzle 21:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think User:Standatoms needs a lesson in patience, civility, no personal attacks, and all kinds of other things *ahem* sock *ahem* before posting at ANI about other users. Just my friendly opinionKeeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ignore them, and they cannot waste your time. Those trying to mentor him are utterly misguided, but it's not harmful for them to spend their time this way. It's a waste of their time of course, but we cannot exactly demand that volunteers do or don't do whatever we think is best. I'd be in favor of blocking him for disruption if he doesn't cut out the mentoring nonsense, but other than that, what is there to do? Friday (talk) 21:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Friday in that those who are "admin coaching" them are just giving them false hope but until such a day when we can ban those who bring nothing to the dance, nothing can be done George The Dragon (talk) 22:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I have the right to raise valid concerns without being judged. I'm not a sock, I edit primarily under an IP except when it's not convenient and/or possible as is the case now. In addition to "mentoring nonsense" he's closing AfDs when he has no idea how, 'creates' articles for other to fix his mess -- just ask User:Metros about how many messes he's had to clean, and generally makes a nuiscance of himself. None of them are any loss, RyRy is the worst of the lot. Standatoms1985 (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

While I do have some degree of sympathy with you and would love to kick all of the social networkers off Wiki (and the problem is getting worse) there is no consensus to do that. On a related note, I would point to RyRy's constant requests for rollback and note how it ties in with my concerns about how that particular tool has become the latest "level up" option for the role-players, but what can we do? Let them have their fancy userboxes and let's just hope they keep out the way. One recent problem that did come up - by trying to restrict role-players and networkers away from user-space, they are then lose on mainspace, so perhaps we should just let them get on with it George The Dragon (talk) 22:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
IMHO, nothing needs to be done here about RyRy5. There are no policies on "admin time" that I know of. There is no issue here. We should talk about Standatoms1985 though (WP:DUCK). Anything you want to tell us? Toddst1 (talk) 22:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Standatoms, did you notify the users that you are adamantly complaining about, about this thread? Such is the custom. Not doing so is rather sneaky, as the users don't have a clue what's going on, and therefore cannot defend themselves. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I just finished informing him or her and came back to find Keeper's note. Toddst1 (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Aw no one ever actually asked Metros like he suggested. I feel left out! Metros (talk) 04:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have seen these users' (especially RyRy5's) contributions and can say that I don't find it to be *disruptive*, I agree that RyRy5 needs to drop the mentoring stuff and should put of his admin coaching for a while because he's just gaining antipathy with it. If these admins wish to spend their time helping these users than I guess it just shows how patient they are and should be applauded for their efforts. RyRy5 has been outright warned, but all-in-all userspace editing does not harm the project and neither does the chatting, I think RyRy5 and his friends just need to be told this and the rules then enforced but the point is they have made valuable contributions to the encyclopedia. So, Ryan, take this as a request from me to stay to mainspace editing, keeping the smalltalk to a minimum for now, putting off all the adopting, admin coaching and rollback stuff and just have fun writing articles for now, when other editors feel you're ready to have rollback, adopt users or be an administrator, they'll tell you, but I can see that you are in disfavor with some regulars because of your apparent interest for 'advancement' rather than writing articles. The DominatorTalkEdits 00:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I was really proud of RyRy when he told me today that he's accepted an offer to be adopted by someone. I think it's a huge step and it goes a long way towards his credibility in my eyes. There is no doubt in my mind that he's got great intentions, and that he now realizes that there are people who can help him advance quickly in his understanding. - Philippe 02:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I would generally agree that these users should find more productive things to do with their time rather than admin coaching. General mentoring seems far more appropriate given their current standing in the community. Daniel (talk) 03:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Roitr sock needs blocking[edit]

Can someone block Terikoso (talk · contribs) as a Roitr sock? (See WP:LTA/Roitr.) For the duck test, see this edit by Pasteriso (talk · contribs) (who checkusered as a likely Roitr sock) and the same edit repeated by Terikoso. Kelly hi! 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also created this page, a Roitr trick. Someone should probably protect that page against recreation or he will try again with a new sock. Kelly hi! 22:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Blocked. Given the other day's CU results, it seems this user is more active recently. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Iron Man (comics) problems[edit]

I noticed that the history shows some recent tag team vandalism by what looks like an IP and a possible sock situation... user:Kaine65 and user:capitankane seem to be the same, given that capitan came to the article right after, and reverted in such a way that some vandalism was left in. Admin review please? SSP? RFCU? thoughts? ThuranX (talk) 22:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Admin COI[edit]


Is the following situation acceptable? I may soon suffer a conflict of interest in a matter involving a specific Wikipedia article. To be clear, there is absolutely no COI at the moment. Am I correct in thinking it would be fine for me to set up a sockpuppet account, use that account and that account only, while disclosing COI, to suggest changes on the article's discussion page, but refrain from tying my primary account to this sockpuppet account due to privacy issues? Furthermore, again while disclosing COI, to use this new account (and only that account) to revert simple vandalism on the article directly? If either of my accounts were blocked, I would refrain from using the other for the duration of the block. If this is not acceptable, I will not set up a new account and will simply refrain from all edits to the article in question. --Yamla (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Two points; Alternate accounts are acceptable, although not encouraged. There is nothing about alternate accounts needing to be identified as belonging to another editor, AFAIAA (certainly the alternate account category is rather bare). Your only problem would be the consideration of operating Good Hand/Bad Hand accounts. However, the second point is that COI does not mean the editor is not permitted to contribute, only that there should be extra vigilance that NPOV is adhered to in both the subject and dealing with the contributions of other editors (i.e. it is not operated as a Bad Hand). The third point of the two is that dealing with vandalism falls outside most policy "don't"s. In short, yup - if edits within that admitted COI subject/article are made in accordance with WP policy it shouldn't matter if it is an undisclosed alternate account of another editor. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Just don't cross the streams. Thatcher 23:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It is scary when admins have secret alternate accounts. Is this a very important issue for you? Could you instead provide input via email to an editor you trust, if you think that the article is missing some important information? Surely others can revert vandalism just as well as you. EdJohnston (talk) 23:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I share some disquiet here. Do admins disclose their "secret" accounts upstream, i.e. to 'crats? How does one objectively determine vandalism when possessing a COI? Are there safeguards in place, given that admins are apportioned a certain degree of trust? Franamax (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"LOOOOLL COCA COLA SUX DIX" is pretty obviously vandalism, while "Some consider Coca-Cola's activities in Foo controversial...(source)" is pretty clearly not. When there's any ambiguity, the conflict of interest becomes relevant (at which point it's wonderful that it's being disclosed -- generally COIs aren't). LessHeard vanU's post covers it well enough for my taste. There are certainly ways this can go wrong, which is why I'd recommend taking special care. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It is scary when admins have secret alternate accounts. Agreed. If there's a need for a special anti-vandalism account for one article, there's a problem, and this isn't the right way to handle it. It smacks of WP:OWN. --John Nagle (talk) 03:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me, but I don't see the section in WP:SOCK#Legitimate uses of alternative accounts that says "unless you're an admin, in which case you're just SOL." The rest of your comment indicates to me you don't understand Yamla's reasoning for wanting an account -- it's a privacy thing, not so he can claim Supreme Ownership. – Luna Santin (talk) 05:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone is allowed an alternate account if they follow WP:SOCK. Admin or not. We respect people's wishes to be anonymous and if that is scary then so be it. (1 == 2)Until 05:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If it's scary to people then there may be legs for policy to change; just a thought. Any policy can change and likely will someday. Nothing if ever final here. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 13:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yamla, if it's this concerning, why not just ask some you trust to watch the mystery article? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 13:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem. I think the unspoken assumption here is that Yamla's main account will not edit either the article or its Talk page. Perhaps that is so obvious that it makes me look stupid for saying so. That's okay. :-) SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In fact, I tried to make explicit that my main account would not edit either the article or its talk page going forward. It seems to me that some people have brought up some legitimate concerns here. For the record, I think so long as an admin is willing to disclose the alternate account to, say, 'crats, this sort of usage is supported by our existing policies and guidelines. However, because of the concerns raised here, I hereby declare that I will not set up an alternate account and will also refrain from editing said article myself. Again, I think it would be okay for an alternate account but I also think it is just generally a good idea for an admin to err on the side of caution, and so that's what I will do here. Anyway, the article in question is only occasionally vandalised and I'm absolutely sure others can deal with the vandalism when it happens. --Yamla (talk) 14:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Err, this is allowed. As Thatcher says, just don't cross the streams. As long as there's no interaction between your accounts or overlapping areas of editing, nothing is actionable. WilyD 14:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


This user, Ehccheehcche (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), has vandalized the page Super Saiyan after a final warning was given. I have brought this up here since my last vandal reports at WP:AIV were ignored. Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 22:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that removing a blank section heading really amounts to vandalism, especially since other editors there agree with the deletion. . This ed. has made a number of constructive edits, including the restoration of articles after vandalizing by anons. I do not think action is called for at this point. DGG (talk) 22:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

ThomHImself (talk · contribs)[edit]

These edits constitute a legal threat. He's also edit warring to remove well-cited information, probably close to 6 or 7RR, I'm not even bothering to count anymore. Moreover, he's the true definition of a single-purpose account. Any help will be greatly appreciated. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 22:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

"I will take various actions specified in Wikipedia policy in response to all future introductions of potentially defamatory claims that are not supported by references to sources permitted in biographies of living persons." I consider that a statement of intent to ask for deletion of the material under BLP, or even oversight. that's not legal threats. I'm not defending his general editing practices, which are possibly worthy of a final warnng about a possible topic ban. . DGG (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It's a threat without validity. How could anyone possibly consider it defamatory that Marks is an Intelligent design proponent, when he has written on Intelligent design, Baylor closed down his website because of Intelligent design, and he's mentioned in the Expelled, the intelligent design promoting moving. So, a legal threat that is just used to scare off an editor, is a legal threat that has no basis and is frowned upon by Wikipedia. Moreover, he violated 3RR after a final warning, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble to file a 3RR complaint. And now it appears that the editor is in fact Robert Marks, so maybe his motives are not so good. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User seems to be SPA link spammer[edit]

Resolved: warned. Report to WP:AIV if spamming resumes. Toddst1 (talk) 02:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User has posted nothing except "spirit shop" linkspams to a number of school articles. This has happened in two batches over a period of a day, so it isn't a one-time thing. I've cleaned up the mess, but is there a chance that this IP is sufficiently static that it can be blocked? Loren.wilton (talk) 01:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)



Account name suggests single-purpose account. Hasn't made any productive edits, and history so far, and name, suggests it won't. John Nevard (talk) 01:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive, vandalism and obvious WP:POINT across multiple articles in rapid succession. Cirt (talk) 01:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I reported to WP:AIV and vandal was indef blocked by Trusilver (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 02:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Phone numbers[edit]

This has already been posted here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Prank_phone_calls, but I'm going to post it again because no one is paying attention.

Briefly, there are three users involved: User:Supernatural3, User:Bryanwood343, and User:Specialwolf. All three have very similar user pages and likewise have a history of no productive edits to Wikipedia, just creating inappropriate pages and editing each other's user pages. They might well be the same person.

All 3 posted 2 phone numbers on their user pages. On the first page, User:Supernatural3, and administrator did remove the numbers from history (through deletion) but they are still there for the other 2. They should be deleted immediately. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 03:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

this needs oversight right away. Numbers are real, and do go back to a real number in one user's town, so this probably constitutes harrassment, and the number's in enough revisions that the user pages ought to be deleted outright. ThuranX (talk) 03:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I would support that. Two of the user pages have some identical text, none of these users has any meaningful project or article space edits and at least one looks like a sockpuppet of another. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 Confirmed They're all the same nitwit, or at least they edit from the same school and same IPs within minutes of each other. Thatcher 04:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
All the more reason to hurry up and oversight that page away, because if it's all one loser doing it, it's a sure bet that those aren't HIS OWN phone numbers. ThuranX (talk) 04:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleted the pages, they contained personal attacks of people. I'm going to block the users as disruptive accounts, unless anyone complains (feel free to overturn it). SWATJester Son of the Defender 04:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Seems like an appropriate response to Beavis and Butt-head-type nonsense. I did not want to overreact, or to overstep policy, but I did not want Wikipedia to be a means of phone harassment for someone when I found the numbers posted. At best these users/this user was using Wikipedia for social networking. Edison (talk) 05:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Move cleanup[edit]

Resolved: move fixed

Can someone clean up the recent sequence of moves of Arabic numerals performed by Agnistus (talk · contribs)? Not only is the current title (Aryabhatan numberals) misspelled, but it's also a brand-new neologism with zero ghits ("Aryabhatan numerals").

I'm requesting this here instead of at WP:RM as there's absolutely no consensus for the move (indeed, it wasn't discussed at all on the talk page), and the only reason that I wasn't able to revert it myself was because the redirects have been edited. Zetawoof(ζ) 04:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I reverted his edits and restored the header. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 05:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
And I've moved the article back, deleted the spurious redirects, warned the user and move-protected the article. Black Kite 06:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the cleanup work. Much appreciated. Zetawoof(ζ) 07:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Community ban proposal re User:Gni[edit]

I have proposed a community ban of Gni (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) for serious violations of Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry, including soliciting, directing and leading a major off-wiki campaign of organised POV-pushing through single-purpose accounts. Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby campaign#Community ban proposal and leave comments there. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Phone numbers redux[edit]

This isn't a report of a specific incident like the "Phone Numbers" case above, but more a request for comment on proper procedure for cases similar to this. For instance, tonight in an hour or so of change patrolling I came across 2-3 cases where some jerk has posted a phone number in some random article, claimed it was his, possibly gave what he claimed was his name, and then said something like "I'm horny, call me now!"

This isn't an isolated case, I come across a couple of these most every day. I've usually been doing an immediate AIV report with "personal information" as a reason and then reverting or blanking as necessary. But I don't know of this is the best thing to do or ever the right thing to do. Will this necessarily get the diff removed by whoever handles the ticket at AIV? Will analysis get done and Oversight get called if needed? Should something else be done instead?

I'm not a fan of a rule for every thing and everything a rule, but it seems to me this would be a good case for a semi-formal policy on What To Do. Maybe it exists and I don't know about it?

Thanks, Loren.wilton (talk) 09:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Oversight usually isn't necessary. Any admin can delete the revisions. Neıl 10:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

vandalism on Walt Disney article by User:Spadge47[edit]


User:Spadge47 is vandalising Walt Disney article ( see [31] [32] [33]) inspite of repeated warnings. I request an admin to block the user...thanxGprince007 (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

In the future, please take issues of simple vandalism to WP:AIV. Thanks. Toddst1 (talk) 11:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Blenheim Palace[edit]


Can someone take a look at the above's recent history. I have reverted twice. Now, I'm not quite sure what is going on there. Giano (talk) 12:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected now, but looks like a good-faith attempt to provide pop-ups in French, the French wikipedia already has an article, but much shorter. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 13:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I wondered that, but was not sure - I don't think it's a proper vandal, but whatever he was doing was beyond my limited knowledge. Giano (talk) 13:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiLobbying campaign organized offsite by political pressure group[edit]

See wikilobby campaign for discussion. No timestamp. Kwsn (Ni!)

Moreschi has extended Zeq's ban to one year with an indefinite topic ban. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi has indefinitely blocked User:Gni for "Attempting to undermine Wikipedia's integrity by organising off-wiki meatpuppetry to push a nationalist agenda." <eleland/talkedits> 11:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


I feel a few involved admins/editors should have their contributions examined on that page. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC) breakoff. 14:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Involved" in what? <eleland/talkedits> 15:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In any case, the issue is moot, unless all of them are involved. Under the ArbCom rulings, it only takes one admin to set these editing restrictions, so even if there are forty mad partisan admins, and one saintly person who's never had an opinion on the subject, the restrictions are still OK and have to be appealed to AE, not here. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User blocked for attempted outing[edit]

I have blocked Arion 3x3 (talk · contribs) indefinitely as an emergency measure, after what I deemed to be his attempted outing of another editor at the current arbitration he is involved in. I was approached privately by both Filll and Durova, who noticed it, and decided it was worthy of oversight. In my opinion, whether or not his hunch is correct (which I cannot confirm) the fact that he was trying to out the real name of someone who had explicitly left the project due to the publicity of his real name is troubling. Sorry if this all sounds cryptic, but it's hard to say much, given the circumstances. I would like us to have a discussion now whether the indefinite block should be made permanent, or how to react. Dmcdevit·t 03:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:BLOCK#Protection, blocks may be implemented for disclosing personal information (whether or not the information is accurate). This neither confirms nor denies the assertion. Standard duration is indefinite, which is generally at least until the editor promises not to repeat the mistake. I have no opinion about whether this particular block should become permanent. DurovaCharge! 03:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The only issue here is that the user is involved in an ArbCom case, and being blocked will prevent the user from participating. Maybe a stern warning to desist, and a public commitment from the user not to do that again will suffice to unblock. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
If he vows to refrain from repeating the problem, then that makes sense. Until then he can submit whatever evidence he wishes by e-mail. He isn't a named party in the case. DurovaCharge! 03:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not a named party in the case, and this is a clear violation of policy and one that can often cause the user that is outed to leave the project. I support a block, but like everyone else am undecided about how long. Tiptoety talk 04:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Participating in an arbitration case isn't carte blanch to do thins kind of thing. No question of an unblock until the user undertakes to behave according to community norms. I haven't looked at their contribs. Are they a problem generally? Spartaz Humbug! 05:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Arion is generally a recalcitrant edit warrior that uses extraordinary wikilawyering to weasel his way out of potential blocks. east.718 at 05:35, April 22, 2008
Remain blocked indef. a full appology and promise to knock it off, refactor to two weeks on top of time served. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Though he does have a JD in wikilawyering and has been routinely shown to disrupt, I would support (not that I matter) an unblock because he is named in the evidence and may have sanctions forthcoming (nothing workshopped, as of yet). It would only be reasonable for him to have a chance to defend himself. However, the unblock should be limited to the ArbCom case and, if he is not a party to any sanctions, the matter can be brought up here at the conclusion of the case and a decision be made. Thoughts? I take that back, Durova's idea makes much more sense. If he has further evidence, he can submit it via email. Outing is a serious offence and an editor who has been here for 1.5 years should know better. Baegis (talk) 06:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Blocks are not punitive, Rocksanddirt, and should Arion 3x3 give such a commitment there will be no need, on a preventative basis, to continue the block (in the absence of cause to doubt the commitment, of course). --bainer (talk) 06:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it is punitive to give the user an enforced break, as the user seems to be taking the disputed article and activities a bit more personally than is good for him/her. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) It's worth considering whether preventative applies to this individual's behavior alone, or in a broader context. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal is an example of how AGF can be gamed. The following exchange occurred shortly before arbitration, during a mediation request. Ilena's mentor acted from the highest motives, but his best efforts didn't help:

Durova: She posted that while I was composing my final warning, so I'll give her a chance to strikethrough that allegation. I'll wait a reasonable interval after her next post to this page and if it isn't retracted she's blocked.[34]
Peter M. Dodge: While dispute resolution is open I would strongly suggest you didn't.[35]
Durova: On the contrary, Wikipedia dispute resolution creates no shield against user blocks. Editors are fully responsible for their behavior and may be blocked during any phase of it by the same standards that would apply in any other situation. Blocking is actually rather commonplace during user conduct WP:RFC and arbitration. The only thing that active dispute resolution typically forestalls is WP:RFAR. I retracted my first warning when you requested it. The subsequent ones are very firm.[36]

Shortly afterward her subsequent actions did merit a block, and then a longer one, and after I extended it I became aware that she had also posted a link to her personal website where she had outed another editor's identity. Rather than alter the block again I opened the matter for noticeboard discussion and arbitration followed. Before the case ended she outed the same editor's identity a second time, and in the same way, and got an indefinite block from a different administrator. Months afterward, her e-mail access had to be blocked because of legal threats.[37]

That example was an extreme case and I do not know Arion 3x3's edit history well enough to speculate how comparable this may be. In fairness to Arion, he did make a prompt promise at his user space not to repeat the behavior, and also e-mailed me. I appreciate that he did these things. What concerns me is the potential that cases like these could make other editors shy away from arbitration, for fear that their identities could be outed with little consequence to the poster. This site has had recent issues with arbitration confidentiality. I'm not sure what's the best solution here with that longer view in mind. DurovaCharge! 09:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

He did say that he would not make similar comments again, but the fact is, he did, and after exchanging a few emails with Dmcdevit, I'm not convinced his comments have been made in good faith. Mr.Z-man 01:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, we give Arion a chance, with this warning: "any further activity, insinuations, accusations, that could be construed as an attempt to uncover or release the identity of a Wikipedia user, will result in a permanent ban from the project". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If unblocked he will have to be watched very carefully. My experience with Arion is that he pushes things right to the limit, and that East's remark above is spot on. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm unable to propose adding a "public relations" section to Allegations of Israeli Apartheid's talk page[edit]

I'm trying to propose the addition of a public relations section to the above article. I think this will improve the article, as public relations is just as important a part of apartheid as is brute force.

Seeing how contentious the article was, I obviously didn't edit the main article. Rather, I added a section to the talk page, and linked this apropos article, which I suggested using as the first item in the proposed section. [38] and [39].

A user reverted my edit three times, and refused to discuss it. Once I warned him about the 3RR rule, "another" user immediately logged in an reverted my edit. It's all detailed here. [40] or [41]

I'm not sure what to do, as I'm not even allowed to discuss my proposed change to the article. Thus this rules out 3PO or mediation. I can't do a 3PO if the proposed changed isn't even allowed onto the talk page.

--Ocean8765 (talk) 21:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It is because your comments are off-topic and violating WP:TALK. You are bringing up a blog that attacks specific Wikipedia editors. Further, it is not about "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid." Rather, it is about allegations of a non-governmental organization's efforts to influence content on Wikipedia. You are not proposing an addition to the article so much as you are simply posting the link to an irrelevant blog. --Ave Caesar (talk) 21:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
First, so that the point is not obfuscated, you wouldn't even allow us to debate the addition to the article. Now that you are willing to discuss it a bit, how do you know what their affiliation is with the Israeli government? Besides, who said apartheid is exclusively the domain of government agents? Private citizens have always helped a society achieve its goals. Please add my change back to the talk page so that we can debate the merits of adding it to the main article. --Ocean8765 (talk) 22:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
That's because the talk page is not the appropriate place for such off-topic things to be discussed. --Ave Caesar (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason it's relevant, again, is because it's about Israel's public relations machine, which is an integral part of maintaining the conditions which many people consider to be apartheid. Of course, by deleting the proposed addition from the talk page, you prevent even a debate on whether to add it. This debate that you're having here belongs on the article's talk page. Please restore my edit. --Ocean8765 (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh sweet. A fresh single-purpose account from the anti-Israel side trying to get some ideological profit out of that miserable story. Last thing we need right now. Out with it. Fut.Perf. 22:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Please be careful about crossing the line into abuse. I'm only proposing adding a reference to a credible article (the Wikipedia editors mentioned in that article have been banned for a year, as I'm sure you are aware.) Since when can't we even debate additions to an article?--Ocean8765 (talk) 22:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
If this discussion is allowed into AoIA's talk page, then that'd open the doors to all of the other article talk pages that this CAMERA mess has caused. Rather than having tangential discussions on many pages, why not bring your concerns into the centralized discussion area, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby campaign ? Tarc (talk) 16:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

vandalism on Walt Disney article by User:Spadge47[edit]


User:Spadge47 is vandalising Walt Disney article ( see [42] [43] [44]) inspite of repeated warnings. I request an admin to block the user...thanxGprince007 (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

In the future, please take issues of simple vandalism to WP:AIV. Thanks. Toddst1 (talk) 11:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Contributions are almost entirely vandalism. I'm not sure what to do about the user removing warnings from their talk page, and particularly this addition: [45] swaq 16:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User blocked for 72 hours.-