Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive421

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Rangeblock help needed[edit]

Hdayejr (talk · contribs) has been harrassing ChrisP2K5 (talk · contribs) and generally being a disruption to the encyclopedia. He is impossible to handle at this point, since he edits from a range of IP addresses. Mostly, he seems to edit from the range, though it may be somewhat smaller than that (it seems confined to the higher numbers today, for example, maybe or some such...) This has been going on for some time, and I am afraid that we are going to lose good editors if we don't clamp down on this. I will contact ChrisP2K5 and see if he can expand on this problem, I think there have been prior ANI reports on this as well. This needs to be stopped... 03:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There are others out there, and he's apparently expanded into 99 level IPs. Will report more shortly once I compile the list of all the suspected IPs I believe he is using. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 03:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Here's a small portion of the suspected IPs: User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, User:, and several others. If you like, please check out my contributions or the for any others added by me that may not be there. The man has been doing this for nearly two weeks and it's time he's stopped. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 04:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

New addition: User: --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 04:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I would think that this should probably go to Checkuser request since it's IPs and he's not actually doing it as Hdayejr (talk · contribs). - ALLST☆R echo 04:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe that was tried and didn't work. Also add the reverter to the list. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 04:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, furthermore, Allstarecho, the user is a known Internet troll who's used many different IP addresses to evade bans from websites, going as far as to get these IPs from other providers. There are several users here who can testify to his posting habits on other sites ([[User:TPIRFanSteve is one of them) and how they've resulted in his removal from certain groups. He's not above using other IP addresses to get his way.--ChrisP2K5 (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm not really involved here, but I've sort of passed through this on-going conflict every now and then. Either way, I want to see Hdayejr perm blocked from WP, assuming it is at all even possible. He has yet to attack me for some reason. Anyway, I just came here to post my current list of his catalogued socks. Since a perm block seems impossible, I just made this, as his socks just don't go away. Sorry, I like keeping track of things. As to another reason why I made it, some lists regarding masters and socks, assuming they're requests for intervention in some way or another, they would eventually be locked, at least in the sense that the session is closed and there is a request on the page for no further modification(and if any does happen, it's reverted anyways.)
I hope I didn't make myself look like an idiot here.— dαlusT@lk / Improve 08:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You've made yourself look like an idiot by defending trolls on this site who assume bad faith and make disruptive edits and reverts of good faith edits(Chris Palmer being the main one, though Fanboy TPIRFanSteve has had his ass run off the TPIR on a one way rail by Twigboy and others that are sick of them both). (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Harvey, thanks for chiming in. Too bad it doesn't mean anything. You don't belong here...why don't you just leave? --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 18:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Main page got wiped[edit]

Yes check.svg Resolved.

For some ever odd reason, Malcolm (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) made this edit. I have blocked him for it and I'm currently waiting on a response as to why. Kwsn (Ni!) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a compromised account from what I gather. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It is, I unblocked him but will keep an eye on him till he gets home. Kwsn (Ni!) 14:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Friend from school randomly came over and did all that. Apologies, and I won't be logging on school computers anymore. — Malcolm (talk) 18:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Seeking information on[edit]

When WP:IPEXEMPT was introduced, one of its first targets was to hard-block a long term vandal on I have some knowledge but not enough to really check something carefully.

If anyone has knowledge of the user's activities (behavioral, lists of accounts used, checkuser) let me know? More detail and specifics, rather than less, if in doubt. Email preferred (see WP:BEANS).

Many thanks.

FT2 (Talk | email) 15:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Large CSD backlog[edit]

There is currently a large CAT:CSD backlog, currently running at 133 pages and 122 images. A little help clearing it would be appreciated, thanks. Woody (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Another threat that we probably need to err on the side of caution of[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Officials notified, Tiptoety talk 21:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


Shane+Cass (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sorry, to bring this here, but per discussion with another admin (and the good consience of my wife) it's better addressed. As will be seen from the above links I blocked this user indef. for creation of this page (admin only now) which contains a specific threat. The other deleted contribution from this account provides reference to names and physical location. On balance Keeper and I have agreed that a checkuser may need to be done to establish if the IP behind the account is related to a school in or around Honey Brook, Pennsylvania. I was hoping to keep this of ANI but I can't determine a CU who is online to approach privately, and would welcome (limited) debate as to wether we need to do this at all, and is so to possibly contact a school if the account does resolve to one (this is guess work on it being a school account). Again, appologies. I would have liked this sewn up quietly, but I am likely to be online very sporadically tonight and so have felt forced to bring it here. Pedro :  Chat  18:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is worth reporting, but quietly per WP:RBI. Let me try and track down a CU. Tiptoety talk 18:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
That's what Pedro and I were trying to do. Track it down quietly sans ANI, but he was unable to find a CU online. Feel free to post to his or my talkpages if/when you find anything. Cheers, Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
That's why we have IRC. This doesn't look like a serious threat, though - a lot of nonsense pages like that mention names, and it's not particularly malicious either. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Tiptoety is on IRC right now. I agree the threat is rather blase, and likely completely frivolous. As a former public education teacher though, I can assure you that, although mild, because of its specificity (a threat against a specific person, naming first and last name), it is always better to take it seriously and not have to deal with a lifetime of hindsight. I understand fully we have no explicit responsibility to do anything here. But it's still the right thing to at least make an attempt at notification. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Although I will also add, saying "I'm going to kill <first name, last name>" is rather malicious, wouldn't you agree? It's not like the quote said "I'm gonna punch him after school.". Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Alas RBI was my intention but I was unsure of net access tonight - as for IRC - no thanks. Can't stay on longer than 30 seconds before it boots me out... ! Pedro :  Chat  20:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I hope you are able to resolve this quickly and get the CU worked out. If for some reason you or the CU don't think you want to report it, have the CU email me the info and I will make a phone call to the local authority. Toddst1 (talk) 20:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Ideal Toddst1 - I'm likely to be offline soon, so should there be a necesity to make a call I have every faith in leaving it with Toddst1 to wrap this up. I'm glad this has been as minimal in drama as it should be - thank you all. Pedro :  Chat  20:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
As much as I covet my own privacy, I would also make a phone call if email was insufficient. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll take care of it. Toddst1 (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:TOV and Jimbo both suggest reporting specific threats here and I commend Pedro for doing so. Can there be any confirmation that this threat has been reported to the appropriate authorities or the victim informed? Bstone (talk) 21:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

WV State Police have been informed. Toddst1 (talk) 22:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

3RR by ... ummm ... me[edit]

Resolved: User was never in violation of 3RR. Reverts fall under anti-vandal. Thank you for being honest

After making the last revert, I realized I had hit 3RR - so I'm reporting myself here. This is partly to see if the community feels that my reverts fall within the vandalism exception, and partly to request others to review the edits. The reasons for the reverts has been to remove what I perceive as spam/advertising attempts within the article (listing of a specific company). Here are the dif links: [1], [2], and [3] (the last one being the most blatant example of spam/advertising to be reverted).

Obviously, as I'm reporting myself, I won't be making any further reverts to the article until/unless the community agrees that the reverts fell within the allowed exceptions of WP:3RR. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 21:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Reverted Spam additions. Within the anti-vandal spectrum. Off the hook. 3RR violations do not count for anti-vandal fighting as long as you make it clear that is why you are reverting. Rgoodermote  21:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for letting me know both here and on my talk page. After seeing the 3rr clarification on my talk page, I went ahead and did another revert, where the same company was re-added to the article. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 22:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Another school threat[edit]

Resolved: Authorities called
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deathboy52 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) made this threat a little while ago. The school in question seems to be Thomas Grover Middle School in Princeton Junction, New Jersey. It absolutely needs to be reported to the school and the local police, but I am unable to dial long distance, so I would appreciate it if someone else did the dirty work. The diff should probably be oversighted as well, after the relevant authorities have seen it. Thanks. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

My phone is being used by my grandfather right now. But I got I think a phone number from their website it is

8550 609-716-5250 on top I will send out an email to everyone listed Rgoodermote  22:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ugh..I sent the email and it came back with an annoying. "Email error could not send." message. When he gets off I will make a call. Rgoodermote  22:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

taken care of. ThuranX (talk) 22:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And I was about to call too. So what is going to happen? Rgoodermote  22:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Not our problem. Let the professionals handle it. ThuranX (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC):::
What is "taken care of"? Should we get the IP? Paragon12321 (talk) 22:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If someone wants to Email me the IP info, I'll make a second call, but let's get it done fast. I guess one ofthe IRC enabled editors will ahve to hunt down a CU for that. ThuranX (talk) 22:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, let's avoid blowing this into a bigger situation than it is. It's taken care of. Send me the IP, oversight, mark resolved, go edit. ThuranX (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I am going to close this. If there is more go ahead and undo my edits. Rgoodermote  22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.



Acct started today, edit summaries like "revert brain damaged bitch," "remove faggotry," "remove moar faggotry": -PetraSchelm (talk) 23:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The edits aren't done in bad faith, though.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at the other contribs. This is absolutely a vandalism account, probably our friend Grawp again. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 01:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I was reverting IP edits exactly like that yesterday. Loren.wilton (talk) 05:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Kappa Sigma[edit]

Resolved: Semi-protected until May 27

There are new users who are posting links in the article regarding "secret information" about the fraternity. This has been going on all day. Apparently some ritual book was obtained and posted on the internet. I've seen past instances where websites have been shut down or various threads on messages boards have been shut down because of legal ramifications by the respective fraternity. Ritual books such as these are not meant to be in the public domain. I don't know what kind of actions, if any, Wikipedia wants to take, whether it's protecting the page, contacting the Kappa Sigma fraternity or nothing. I just wanted to make this incident known. ----Ðysepsion † Speak your mind 03:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, their book of rituals was scanned and leaked to a bunch of services. I can assure you they know about the leak. Since it's all unverifiable, there shouldn't be an editorial issue here. --Haemo (talk) 03:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The scan has resulted in a serious influx of vandalism and edit-warring from new and unregistered users, so I've semi-protected the article for four days per a request on WP:RFPP. This should handle the edit-warring problem, but if it continues between autoconfirmed users, then I'll lock the page down completely. --jonny-mt 05:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That should resolve this situation for now--this will eventually become verifiable information for inclusion when it becomes part of verifiable sources. Also, Dysepsion, I wouldn't worry too much about legal ramifications. gren グレン 10:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


Resolved: speedied G3

Probably complete nonsense but notability asserted so I can't nominate for speedy deletion. Can someone familiar with USA military structure take a look and deal with appropiately? Exxolon (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, I don't see how notability's asserted. It's pretty much patent nonsense, and completely unsourced. My guess is it's someone's vanity page about his MMO shooter game clan or something. (One big giveaway: The Rangers are part of the US Army, not the US Marine Corps. There's no such thing as a "Marine Ranger.") Rdfox 76 (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Formed...under "directive order of bill by President G.W. Bush" is the notability assertion, if a rather unlikely one. Exxolon (talk) 03:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That's... a very mangled bit of English that means absolutely nothing in the US military or government; bills are Congressional proposals, while the President can issue Executive Orders. The whole thing smacks of either an MMO clan vanity article or a blatant hoax. I PRODded it, so we'll see what happens there. Rdfox 76 (talk) 03:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
All the names raise BLP worries too. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Was thinking the same thing. Assuming these people exist, I wouldn't think that an espionage unit having their names published would be a good idea. That said, given we don't have a policy regarding biographies of imaginary people, might as well let the prod resolve itself. Or it can just be AfD so that a giant snowball can crush it sooner. Resolute 03:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I've found this for "Ghost Unit", although I have no idea what this wiki actually is (one would have doubts that the real US Military's Special Operations Command would put up a wiki about itself), there's, appears to be for Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon game(s)... I'd say the article fails WP:V big time, and if it's really a black ops type unit, would be likely to remain so (even if true). But, that's a non-admin opinion. --umrguy42 03:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I nuked it, as vandalism (blatant hoaxes count as vandalism). "Government Hostile Operations Special Task"? I think not. --barneca (talk) 03:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Note, Umrguy, that the wiki has links to "OOC" and "IC" forums; that's roleplayer-speak for "Out Of Character" and "In Character". The Wiki's about some sort of RPG. And man, I was going through CSD looking for a category to nom it with, Barneca, and I completely missed G3... Rdfox 76 (talk) 03:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I would have nominated it under WP:IAR. There's a reason it's policy. --Carnildo (talk) 06:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Error at Afd[edit]


Could someone look at today's AfDs and the section just under "Acroyoga". I think there was an error but, I can't work out the context to try and fix it. Thanks. Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. It was a transcluded AfD without a header. To fix in future, see which is the last correct entry in the AfD log (in this case, Acroyoga). Edit the page and find that entry. The entry underneath has the fault. Go to that entry's page. Correct the fault (in this case by subst'ing {{afd2}} into it - the missing step) and save. The log page will now be fixed, in theory. Other solutions are available, and don't forget that you're allowed to fuck up on any of these steps... just like I did :o) ➨ ЯEDVEЯS looks at danger and laughs his head off 11:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that. I'm a bit hesitant at the moment as I been screwing up regularly lately. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
My motto is "a day on Wikipedia without screwing up is a day wasted". And I live faithfully by that motto, believe me. We've no requirement for anybody here to be perfect, so don't hesitate to be bold or we'll never get anything done :o) ➨ ЯEDVEЯS looks at danger and laughs his head off 12:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Nichalp's move of Burma to Myanmar[edit]

See also Talk:Burma#Revert to status quo

On May 12, Nichalp launched a straw poll on the issue of whether the article Burma should be moved to Myanmar (despite the fact that numerous previous straw polls and discussions within the past year had shown the community to be evenly divided on the issue). At the conclusion of the straw poll, it was evident that opinion was still evenly divided. The numerical result of the poll was 16 opposed, 17 in favor. More importantly, both sides were still strongly entrenched in their positions and both sides presented numerous opinions and facts in support of their side and how it related to Wikipedia policies. No unbiased reading of the debate could interpret it as anything other than evenly divided. One week after opening the "straw poll", with neither side moving any closer to consensus, Nichalp unilaterally decided that one side's arguments were more "clear and logical" than the other. He then used his administrative power to move the article (which had been protected against moves) despite the fact that there was clearly no consensus to do so. I believe this is a clear abuse of administrative powers and the move should be reverted by another admin. I would do so myself, but I voted in the straw poll, and thus have a conflict of interest. Kaldari (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This move is long overdue and the original move to Burma had more anomalies than this bold and to be applauded move edit; lack of consensus should clearly mean the article stays at Myanmar and should never have been moved to Burma in the first place, a move which never had consensus either. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Note that Nichalp didn't just move the article, he invited the community to debate the issue and then ignored the debate to implement his own opinion. Such behavior is extremely insulting to the people who participated in that debate in good faith. Kaldari (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Kaldari you seem to contradict your own words. If people participated in the debate in good faith, then there would be a quite a few of them (over half of the people who have expressed opinion) that the name should be changed. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
'Be aware that Wikipedia is not a democracy: A straw poll is not a binding vote, or a way to beat dissenters over the head with the will of the majority. If a large number of people support one option but some don't, this doesn't mean that that's the "outcome".'HalfShadow 17:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, there was no "outcome" of this debate other than the fact that the community is strongly and nearly equally divided on the issue. Thus, no action should have been taken. As this was already well known from previous debates and polls, I can't see this "straw poll" as anything other than a pretense. If Nichalp was going to move the article regardless of the debate, it was not acting in good faith to initiate and advertise the debate in the first place. Kaldari (talk) 17:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, according to your own post, one more person was for moving than against, which sort of defeats your own argument. HalfShadow 17:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, debating first sounds like good faith to me, and no more of an insult than to those in the original debate whose views were also not complied with (and I dont believe either move insulted anyone of us wikiepdian editors). Thanks, SqueakBox 17:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Two wrongs don't make a right. Kaldari (talk) 17:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Kaldari, you assume that I used the straw poll to effect the page move. Unfortunately no. The straw poll was created to summarize the salient points of each editor for or against the name. I've said that in the poll itself. Please stop misinterpreting my poll. Rational points were given more merit than simple 'keep' statements. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess that makes my points irrational! You sound just like my beloved spouse, Nichalp. (Sadly, I lose all those arguments!). :-) --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 19:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that proper process was not followed in this case since there was no attempt made by Nichalp to negotiate or arrive at a consensus. He choose to stay out of the debate, even though his position is own well known when, as per Wikipedia:Consensus he should have participated in the debate and tried to negotiate or build a consensus. As a matter of practical fact, an alternative suggestion (separate Burma and Myanmar articles divided historically as in the case of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe) was receiving some attention and could have emerged as a consensus solution when Nichalp unilaterally renamed the page. I've seen some of User:Nichalp's work elsewhere, have no doubt that he has the best interests of wikipedia in mind and refuse to believe that he acted in bad faith, but do feel that this action should be reversed and taken to WP:RM where it properly belongs. In the final analysis, Wikipedia lives and thrives on our (the editors) faith that due process will be followed in giving weight to our opinions and edits and, while Wikipedia can live with the possibility of an imperfectly named article, it cannot live with a breakdown in that faith. Thanks! --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 17:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd echo the view expressed by RegentsPark. I returned to the page today after viewing it yesterday pre-move and was very surprised to see such a politically-charged change being made on such slender grounds, especially while compromises were still unexplored. Webmink (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this move appears to be skirting process, but I don't really see that there's anything to be done about it. The article is really in the right place now -- like it or not (and I think that the "government" in Myanmar/Burma has absolutely 0 legitimacy), the name of the nation is both de jure (the UN recognizes the name) and de facto (Google has more than twice as many hits for "Myanmar") what the government changed it to. We shouldn't undo an out-of-process move that will restore something that is less correct. It would be as wrong as moving Ho Chi Minh City to Saigon, even though there are doubtless many Vietnamese who resent calling it that.
I think Regents Park's suggestion to have two separate articles, one for pre-1962 "Burma" and one for post-1962 "Myanmar, formerly known as Burma" (since it was until 1989). - Revolving Bugbear 18:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
That was the unexplored compromise to which I was referring, yes. Both pages should link to Names of Burma which documents the origin and nature of the dispute well. - Webmink (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I commend Nichalp for this exceptional admin action. It is high time that the powers that be of wikipedia did something about situations like this where two opposing factions have equal votes but only one faction's arguments are in tune with Wiki policies and guidelines and the other faction knows it. Arguably, it should be a no-brainer, but the other faction is able to filibuster forever claiming "there is no consensus". Yes, "there is no consensus" would apply if it was a simple vote. Thankfully, it isnt. And if you disregarded the ILIKEIT, IDONTLIKEIT and DONT_LEGITIMIZE_THE_JUNTA votes, not only was there a consensus, but an overwhelming consensus to move it. So overwhelming, a bot would have moved it. Seriously! Sarvagnya 18:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The sad thing, Sarvagnya, is that an interesting alternative proposal was emerging and it could have formed the basis for consensus. On the whole, the discussion was remarkably civil, as wikipedia discussions go, with almost no edit warring. It might feel good to be triumphant and have your views codified in wikipedia, but do remember that wikipedia is an organism, each editor is equally valuable, and riding roughshod over a group of committed editors without even a token attempt at dialogue is not the way to keep this organism healthy. Sometimes, the means are more important than the ends. Thanks for your comments though. They are very instructive. Regards. --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 18:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There are absolutely no grounds for this action by User:Nichalp. He moved the article bypassing the thoroughly discussed move proposal we had back in October (which was even praised by User:Jimbo Wales for being so civil and constructive) and bypassing the closing admin User:Duja who closed it as consensus to move to Burma. I contacted Nichalp and expressed my disagreement with his unilateral action. He explained that he acted against the entire process because he was allowed to thanks to WP:IAR[4], and that there was a straw poll somewhere that was mentioned at WP:CBB which, according to Nichalp, would be a more relevant place for advertising the discussion than WP:RM. He also says that he analyzed consensus in order to justify his action. I am quite shocked not only by his action, but also by his apparent refusal to acknowledge such a blatant violation of the process. Nichalp effectively reverted the in-process action of admin Duja who moved the article to "Burma", basing his decision to move the article back to "Myanmar" on a consensus that not only does not exist, as would not be valid even if it existed somewhere, because most of the community was deliberately left outside the process. Controversial move proposals have to go through process in order to legitimize any results, and that is only through WP:RM and a proper section on the article's main talk page. Not through an obscure subpage, advertised on an obscure bulletin. And certainly, not for someone who is not neutral on the matter to suddenly call it quits and enforce a page move. I am disappointed with Nichalp and request feedback on his action. Húsönd 19:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

AND, should I also add that this article was move-protected? Húsönd 19:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The subpage you refer to isnt/wasnt as obscure as you claim it to be. I only recently entered the discussions about the article name and I had no difficulty whatsoever finding the subpage. It is advertised right at the top of the main talk page. Anybody with an opinion on the issue would come to the article's talk page and the talk page would lead them to the appropriate subpage. Sarvagnya 19:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
While I, who have been discussing this for ages, didn't know about it. Users don't have to be watchlisting every single subpage of that article. Move proposals happen on the main talk page. Unless you have something to hide. Húsönd 20:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • This is just further reason why many regular editors do not trust the "powers-that-be" here. Nichalp decided that what he (and those agreeing with him by a 17-16 margin) overrode the WP reliance on consensus. Amazingly bad admin action on a move-protected page. Classic misuse of admin tools. Bellwether BC 20:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Husond's move back[edit]

I am not convinced that reverting Nichalp's move is wise. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just expressed my dismay on Husond's talkpage. Though I think Nichalp's action would have been better based on a fresh consensus-finding exercise, his analysis of the arguments was persuasive. That said, the discussion could have been signposted at WP:RM and Nichalp should have asked someone uninvolved to asses the result. Ideally, I would have thought a fresh discussion about the appropriate title for the article a sensible way to proceed. Given that Husond suggest Nichalp's action was a de facto wheel war, I am astounded that he has decided to reverse the move on a move protected page. I expect to see such behaviour from rather more hot-headed admins and seeing so rash an action in this case is, to say the least, unexpected. WjBscribe 00:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
With due respect, I think Nichalp's actions were unwarranted because he did not actively seek a consensus and moved a protected page. Nichalp should have reversed his move as soon as he found out that the page was move protected because that should be a no-no for any admin, but he did not. I think Husond has done the right thing. --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 00:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Husond has reverted his move, acknowledging that his error, for which I am grateful. Now another admin, who was also involved in previous discussions about the page's name [5], MJCdetroit has moved the page. This is getting ridiculous. I am at a loss as to how to deal with the number of admins who feel there is an immediate need to move this move protected page. Block them/ ask ArbCom to desysop them? Both actions seem a little extreme but this situation is rather out of hand.... WjBscribe 01:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Wheel war[edit]

I'd appreciate opinions so we can nip a situation in the bud before it gets worse. If you check the move logs (Burma, Myanmar) of the two pages, you'll see that Nichalp moved Burma to Myanmar after a discussion that could probably be seen as no consensus for a move, yet he instigated the discussion so was clearly involved. Husond later moved it back to Burma, yet after concern, he was honourable enough to move it back. MJCdetroit has decided to once again move it back to the Burma title. yet, he has also been involved in the talk page discussion, opposing the ealier move. Now, this wouldn't normally be too bad, but it's been move protected all along, so only admins can move the page - yet we've still had a move war over this, by people that are clearly involved. Any thoughts on how to solve this? Ryan Postlethwaite 02:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is a situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place, by not being started. Nichalp should have measured the consequences of his unilateral move. That's not what WP:IAR is for, I am quite disturbed that he found grounds on that particular policy to excuse his move. I think it's only natural that admins will come and revert him. He did something wrong, others will fix if he's not willing to. I think that the only solution is to call on Nichalp to reflect on his actions today. If he acknowledges that he was wrong, then everything's fine. It doesn't cost a cent to realize and fix our own mistakes on Wikipedia. But if he doesn't, well, I think the biggest concern is on him who could not ponder the consequences of reserving the right to determine consensus all by himself and going against process. Húsönd 02:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  • With status quo being "Burma", the most recent move(s) back to that seem much more logical and supportable than Nichalp's. Bellwether BC 02:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that the first thing to do is to make things as they were before Nichalp moved the article. For three reasons. First, because almost everybody believes that there was no consensus. Second, because Nichalp did not seek a consensus or attempt a negotiation. And, third, because any admin action on a protected page should be immediately reverted if that admin has not first sought consensus on the Admin notice board. Then, we should do what Nichalp should have done in the first place. Try to figure out where people lie on the various alternative scenarios proposed (Burma, Myanmar, split Burma & Myanmar), see which editors are not totally fixed on either end of the continuum and work something out in this middle ground. Most of us, IMHO (and I could be naive), are willing to live with any title provided it is not thrust upon us - I certainly am. --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 02:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I support Husönd's action, Nichalp not only misrepresented the view of the "pro-Burma" camp and did a unilateral move, he refused to engage in any serious discussion about it. There is a flaw in the system. If English Wikipedia have a procedure for removing admin status, I don't think this would have happened.--Amban (talk) 02:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, people keep saying that Nichalp did not try and seek a consensus for the move: what is this Talk:Burma/Myanmar#Straw poll if not an attempt to seek a consensus? Perhaps that discussion should have been better advertised and perhaps Nichalp should have asked someone else to close it but at least he was up until that point uninvolved in this dispute. Husond and MJCdetroit (the admins who have moved the page back to Burma) were both involved in past discussions and strongly advocated Burma as the correct title. They are not only moving a protected page without further consensus but doing so when they are involved in the dispute. I find their conduct far more problematic than Nichalp's. WjBscribe 02:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think Nichalp tried to seek a consensus, failed to generate one, and then decided to move the page anyway. It's difficult not to consider him involved in the dispute because I don't find it plausible that a person without a strong personal preference would have closed the debate in this fashion. Overall I support the move back under the general principle that in the case of poor/disputed admin action it is best to work from the original status quo rather than allowing the party at fault to effectively have their way. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
WJBscribe, I disagree with your view that the straw poll was an attempt to seek consensus. One cannot seek consensus by being uninvolved in the discussion. Building a consensus requires actively participating in the discussion, drawing out the different views, building bridges, and trying to work toward a solution. Starting a straw poll with the statement that the purpose is not to really do anything, disappearing for a while, returning and the unilaterally moving the page is not an attempt to seek consensus. I'm frankly surprised and disappointed that an admin and a bureaucrat would do such a thing and even more surprised and disappointed that other admins would not immediately revert that action. Frankly, I'm even more disappointed that Nichalp himself hasn't resolved the issue by returning the page to the Burma name. --Regents Park (Feed my swans) 10:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have seen this kind of behavior before, and my conclusion is that admins wouldn't be so bold if they knew that their status were up for renewal every year, as is the case in other versions of Wikipedia. The relevant straw poll completely eluded me by the way, so I can't say this was very well advertised either. I have never seen this kind of behavior in other versions of Wikipedia and something is wrong in English Wikipedia, you'd better find a way to fix it. Asian-related pages have become soap boxes of different POVs to such an extent that it is pointless getting involved and sharing your knowledge and I have ceased to be involved in most of what is going on, because it is insane.--Amban (talk) 03:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This is just not the comment I was expecting from you. You find our actions more problematic than Nichalp's?! How can fixing a blatant mistake, an abuse of the tools, complete trampling of process and consensus, be more problematic than a blatant mistake, an abuse of the admin tools, complete trampling of process and consensus? I am very, very disturbed by your opinion. In my view, mistakes exist only to be acknowledged and fixed. Húsönd 03:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Husond, I really think you need to take a step back. One of the things I have found most troubling is that you seem to be unable to look at this situation calmly - a sure sign you are too involved to be acting as an administrator here. I don't see the "blatant mistake" or "abuse of the tools" that you do, I'm sorry. Yes, I think Nichalp could have done a better job of advertising the discussion and that he wasn't the ideal closer of that discussion but I do not think his actions constitute an abuse of the tools. You seem unwilling to accept any view other than that Nichalp was totally wrong - I'm sorry but there are to my mind more shades of grey here. Yes, it could have been done better but I see no abuse so shocking that it needed to be reverted immediately by someone as involved as you are. If Nichalp's actions were so terrible, do you not think someone uninvolved would have undone them in the time between you posting about it to this board and deciding to undo them yourself? WjBscribe 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
It's an unfortunate trap we fall into, believing that out-of-process actions are so serious that they require immediate fixing. Especially as it relates to actions requiring admin privileges, it's best to go ahead and take things slowly, even what's been done seems totally outrageous (obviously, I'm not talking about any thoroughly uncontroversial actions, such as reversing a move to "HEIMSTERN IS GAY!"). Fights between admins (between anyone, but especially admins) are seriously damaging to our community and we need to be willing to take things like this slowly and not let our shock and even anger take us to fights like this. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I reverted my move action per WP:UNINVOLVED, which leaves the page back to the move of Nichalp (Burma-->Myanmar) and back to the community to decide if that move has merit. —MJCdetroit (yak) 03:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Moving forwards[edit]

OK, aside from recriminations about who was right or wrong to move the page when, there remains the question of what title this article should be at. I propose that we set aside a page for a request for comment on this issue alone. Flag it up as widely as possible so as to attract as many users as possible who have not been involved in these disputes before. The discussion can run for a couple of weeks and be closed by someone who will assess the consensus. That person (or persons if necessary) should be generally agreed to be neutral and people should willing to accept their determination. I propose something along the lines of:

Wikipedia:Request for Comment/Myanmar vs Burma

This approach was successful in resolving the naming dispute over the city of Danzig/Gdansk, see Talk:Gdansk/Vote. A debate can be had an reviewed by neutral editors who can then form a view as to which arguments are more persuasive. Thoughts? Is this a sensible way to proceed? It seems clear that the usually processes have failed to resolve this dispute, with various discussions coming to different conclusions. This really needs to be settled finally. WjBscribe 03:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the quite likely outcome of any discussion is an absence of settlement. So the real question is, do we enact an arbitrary settlement, or preserve the status quo (and which status quo?). The thing that makes Nichalp's action particularly troubling is that it smacks of an attempt to frame the debate around a new status quo, knowing well the fact that consensus for any change of the status quo is unlikely (as he was well aware, from the straw poll he has just conducted). Christopher Parham (talk) 03:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the status quo needs to be removed as a factor here for the very reason that we'd have difficulty deciding which status quo. My hope is that if we advertise this discussion as widely as possible and beg those who have never heard of this issue to read up on the arguments and come to an opinion, there will actually be a consensus one way or the other. I agree that the situation is problematic if neither there remains no consensus at the end of the new discussion. As a slightly flippant idea, if there is no agreement perhaps we should have the article at Burma for half of each year and at Myanmar for the other half... WjBscribe 04:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately removing the issue of the status quo from the discussion is next to impossible. At the very least, the page has to exist while the discussion you propose is taking place - at what title? The issue also faces the problem with any protection situation in that the side whose preferred version is hard-coded in place has little incentive to make a genuine resolution of the dispute. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"at what title?" -- Make it simple, like an international politician would do it: Move the article to "Country_at_22N_95E", and create four links to this article: Burma / Myanmar, Myanmar / Burma, Myanmar, and Burma. That still won't satisfy people because they will say the article name starts with C which is closer to B so Burma is obviously being favored. I think that the strong of heart could probably ignore that during the naming discussion. Loren.wilton (talk) 04:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
What problem exists with Regent's idea of a Burma page for the preJunta nation, and a Myanmar for the PostJunta nation? Neutrally written articles about both will make the history and situations clear to all involved. Those who are (rightfully) morally opposed to the sadists ripping off the Burmese people will find even the driest writing of the events since the takeover makes clear what monsters be there. Such clarity will be available to all readers, who will then be free to form an opinion. It's an issue where it's very hard to form a pro-myanmar view, even while carefully following NPOV. Facts can speak for themselves. I support a split solution, and if this goes to such a RfC as mentioned above ,please copy and paste this there, or at least notify me abvout such a page, and I'll do it myself. ThuranX (talk) 04:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What really needs fixing[edit]

What is really at issue here is not the name of the article, it is the manner in which the article was moved. Thus, WJBScribe's proposal for an RFC on the name of the problem is addressing the wrong issue. It is useful to step back and take a look at the facts, the nature of wikipedia, and, this last bit is subjective, what appears to be transpiring here. The facts are straightforward. Before these events began to unfold, there was an existing consensus on the article and there was no significant edit warring. Then User:Nichalp, who has previously expressed his dissatisfaction [6] with the move from Myanmar to Burma, started a straw poll on the subpage of the talk page. He clearly indicated that the straw poll was not for decision making and did not advertise the poll on the main talk page (User:BaronGrackle did that later) or in other forums (though he did so on a community notice board after a suggestion was made). He did not participate in the discussion. He did not try to build a consensus. A vibrant and largely civil discussion was taking place and alternatives that could have formed the basis for an acceptable solution were emerging. It was at this point that he then moved the page (which was move protected with an edit summary explicitly requesting any move requests be taken to WP:RM). This is a clear out of process action and, intended or not, implicitly contains the bad faith assumption that the editors on the other side are unreasonable people and there is no point in talking to them.

If an ordinary editor (such as myself) had done a similar thing, a similar page would be full of admins demanding a block, reverting the move, and generally tossing around "off with his head" suggestions. That is not happening here apparently because a bureaucrat is involved. However, the fact that it is a bureaucrat that is implying bad faith (it hurts, trust me) and making an out of process move, it is the integrity of the process that is at question because, if the move is not reversed, it will appears that ordinary rules of behavior do not apply to bureaucrats. Am I to assume, for example, that it is a waste of time to argue an editing decision when a bureaucrat is involved? Since none of us have endless time, should we be constantly checking the position in the wikipedia hierarchy of each user we deal with when editing?

Wikipedia is one of the most creative undertakings for organizing human knowledge that I have seen but, any undertaking is only as good as its processes and, when the integrity of that process is open to question, it is best to quickly fix things. Ideally, User:Nichalp should himself make a good faith reversal of the move but that seems unlikely now and he seems to be on a wikibreak anyway. I understand that it is not easy to take on the political risk associated with examining and reverting an editing action made by a bureaucrat, but a debate and some action here is worth considering. It is my naive hope that an admin will treat this as important enough to move the article back.

I continue to believe that User:Nichalp has the best interests of Wikipedia at heart and believes that the original move was wrong under WP:CSB. But, just as an elected official in a democratic country should not take the law in his or her own hands, a bureaucrat should resist the temptation to do so. Frankly, I can live reasonably happily with a page titled Myanmar. It is much harder though to live with the realization that rules and laws are not applied uniformly or that citizens are not treated with equally. The proper place to build consensus is on the talk page of the article, and Nichalp should have first attempted to do that.

Perhaps I am naive and Wikipedia is no different from, say, Encyclopedia Britannica where editorial decisions lie in the hands of a few editors. Perhaps I have just learned an important wikilesson on what really lies behind WP:NBD. I apologize for any unintentional harshness but I think it is usually better to, politely, say what you think. And, if you've read this boring piece to the end, thanks for the patience! --Regents Park (Chase my ducks) 13:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What the RfC does do is try to separate the issue of content from that of conduct, which you're addressing here. That is no bad thing. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't disagree with that. However, what I'm trying to say is that if conduct is not addressed first, then content cannot be meaningfully addressed because the process continues to be broken and a broken process cannot effectively address content. --Regents Park (Chase my ducks) 14:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I also believe that Nichalp has the best interests of Wikipedia at heart, however, I am dismayed at his decision to act unilaterally and I believe it was a mistake on his part. Because some of the people who were supporting keeping the article at "Burma" were raising issues that had nothing to do with policy, I think Nichalp was able to convince himself that the entire pro-Burma camp was not worth taking seriously. The fact is, both sides have compelling policy-based arguments in their favor (and lots of arguments that have nothing to do with policy). The outside-of-policy pro-Burma arguments should have been challenged by Nichalp if he believed them to be irrational. Instead he simply used them to dismiss everyone on that side of the argument. That is not seeking consensus, that is acting like a dictator (benevolent or not). I believe that Nichalp's action should be reversed until the naming matter is better resolved. However, I would not support taking further action against Nichalp, as I believe he was not intending to create a problem, he was just acting naively. Kaldari (talk) 16:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I second RegentsPark's excellent analysis, that's precisely what I think. User:Christopher Parham also accurately synthesized the situation at User talk:WJBscribe [7] [8]. Nichalp has excused his action with his right to use WP:IAR and his right to determine consensus all by himself, and WJBscribe insists in dismissing the controversy by focusing on the reaction to Nichalp's move, not on that very move itself which after all caused all of this, thereby condoning it. WJBscribe insists that only an uninvolved admin should revert Nichalp. Almost everyone agrees that Nichalp's move was wrong and violated both process and consensus, but days are passing and no uninvolved admin seems to be willing to revert it. Treating this like a dead raccoon is obviously a good way to avoid a possible confrontation with a bureaucrat, but from so many hundreds of admins who vowed to respect and comply with community consensus, I was hoping to see at least one or two come forth and stand against a blatant violation of the very core of Wikipedia. Húsönd 17:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The meaning of consensus is debated in this case. 08:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


Please move the page back to the previously held status quo (Burma) pending further dispute resolution. Administrators should feel free to revert other administrators who seek to be disruptive. There's nothing really more to say. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I supported "Burma" in the straw poll, but have only made two comments. Am I sufficiently uninvolved to move it back to Burma? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally I think so. But I don't think others would agree. Húsönd 21:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

At the very least, I am tempted to undo the multiple moves made by User:MethMan47 to propagate this change across other Burma/Myanmar related pages; given the level of dispute over changing just the main article, it was unwise to take that change as a basis for making many other changes, all of which are going to be disputed for the same reason. [add.: that is now done] Christopher Parham (talk) 00:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Editors who feel this is a case of "two wrongs"[edit]

How many of us feel that, even though we agree with the outcome of the move to Myanmar, and even though we feel the October move was without consensus... the recent move was also done through questionable means? I'd support a revert; but I'd also like a similar process to be done, this time on a more well-advertised page and with a more disinterested editor closing it. How do the other Myanmar-namers feel? -BaronGrackle (talk) 21:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I recall one or two unsuccessful move proposals that were intended to move the article back to Myanmar following the October move. Húsönd 22:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you recall "one or two" because the first was squashed as a speedy close—it was proposed on the belief that the October move had been done without consensus; unfortunately, the Myanmar-namers went about the process the wrong way, and now many editors falsely perceive "Burma" as some sort of long-established status quo on Wikipedia. The second attempt you recall was allowed to exist because time had passed since October. The "Burma" majority (majority, not consensus) that had previously been galvanized by the atrocities against the monks had by this point completely vaporized. A moderator closed the poll at "no consensus" when Burma was ahead by one vote, after which it was revealed that one of the votes had been a typo meant for Myanmar; so there was an exact tie, with more votes trying to come in after the close.
I feel confident, however, that if a disinterested moderator were to look at any of these surveys, from October to today, he or she would find that while there are exceptions, the vast majority of Burma-namers voted explicitly for reasons that are contrary to Wikipedia policy. I feel he/she would reach conclusions similar to Nichalp's and be inclined to make a similar decision. However, since Nichalp was the one who made that decision, we have this new disagreement. That is why I'd support a similar process to be repeated; so this can actually be a consensus, instead of making it so that Burma-namers will repeat the same arguments Myanmar-namers have voiced since October. -BaronGrackle (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It was "squashed as a speedy close" just like any other move proposal that is created right after the closure of another proposal simply because one side is not satisfied. That side is welcome to request comment on the adequacy of the closer's decision, but not to attempt a counter-move proposal. That's just WP:POINT disruption. A period of at least one month, preferably two, is strongly recommended between move proposals. I totally support a new move proposal to verify the arguments from both sides, but it would have to be a proper move proposal. Not a subpage straw poll closed by the its proponent, who happens to be not that unbiased after all, and who will stick to WP:IAR in order to bypass consensus. Húsönd 23:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
{{fact}} This is the English Wikipedia. The correct policy is to use the English name. Neither the United States nor the United Kingdom use the name Myanmar. Myanmar is the phonetic spelling of the ethnic language name of the country, but we don't use ethnic language namings as names, otherwise Germany would be named Deutschland. That is all that matters, the stuff about the Junta is tangential to the issue, really. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Erm, let's leave that for the talk page of the article. The subject here is not which name is right and which is wrong, but Nichalp's inappropriate move. Húsönd 23:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Response from Nichalp[edit]

First, sorry for the delay in replying. I had internet connectivity problems. I'm also sorry this had to spiral out of control.

  1. Next, there is a mention of the fact that I have abused the admin tools to move a protected page. Let me clarify that when I moved the page, there was NO alert that the page was protected. So, I moved the page without the knowledge that it was protected. This should end the debate to speculation.
  2. About not listing it in WP:RM: This is what it says on RM: In some situations, the value of a move may be under dispute, and discussion is necessary in order to reach a consensus. There is no obligation to list such move requests here; discussions of page moves can always be carried out at the article's talk page without adding an entry. This page may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input, or for users to request assistance from administrators in moving pages. -- As per this statement on the RM page, please do show me where I have contravened such a policy.
  3. As I have listed out my reasoning for the move.
  4. What is under debate is the methodologies I used to determine consensus, and the way we need to proceed forward to resolve such issues.
  5. Since this has spiralled to such an ugly issue, I think that the best way forward is to revert the my move (done already) and start the debate afresh and have a set deadline. I have no issues with starting afresh provided that:
  6. The closing admin arbitrates on fact, logic and wikipedia policies, and not just numbers and emotion.
  7. As involved party in this dispute, I recuse myself from suggesting any further. However I do wish that my comments are mulled over.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 08:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Your move hasn't been reverted, which I think is likely to cast a pall over any attempt to move forward. I would suggest that you revert it yourself pending the further discussion. Christopher Parham (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I've been seeing the article on Burma since morning. check log The log shows that it has been moved from Myanmar to Burma. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It's currently at Myanmar; the most recent log entry is here. The Myanmar log only shows half the story, the other half is in the Burma log. (Move logs entries stay with the title, not the page being moved.) Christopher Parham (talk) 14:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
For some strange reason I am seeing the article as Burma all day. (the first line reads "Burma, officially the Union of Myanmar". So, if the way forward it to revert my move, please go ahead and do so and set up some mechanism to decide on one name. Just a heads up, I will be out of town from the tomorrow (23rd to the 4th) so no access to the internet, and will be shortly logging off the wikipedia for the night. I hope something concrete can take place. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


Instead of the bickering about the move change that is past I propose we move forward in the following manner to resolve the issue:

  1. Set up an uninvolved three-member committee (a single person would be accused of bias) experienced in closing contentious debates.
  2. Open up the debate. Set a finite date for closure. (1 month is suggested above)
  3. List it on WP:CBB, and WP:RM, and the talk page of Burma/Myanmar. (satisfies the criteria for all)
  4. The outcome of the debate would be to determine which of the two names gets the article title, rather than a consensus to determine an appropriate page move. Else the outcome cannot be said to be neutral as consensus to move a page is more difficult to achieve given the current status quo climate.
  5. For the outcome to be neutral, the committee decides on the fact, logic and adherence to wikipedia policies and conventions, not numbers and emotions. They have to file a report at the end of the month and allow 2-3 days feedback from the community before closing it.
  6. From what I have seen, two wikipedia policies are up for debate (common name vs naming conventions)

Do let me know if this is favourable to all sides? =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

At the very least the poll ought to have been on the talk page of the article not on some other page, It is a long standing custom that changes to the page are discussed on the articles talk page not on some other page.
It is also customary that if a move is made with WP:RM that a move back must be made with a WP:RM request. Therefore I am going to move the page back and if you wish to move it again then please put in a WP:RM request. As WP:RM says "If there is a clear consensus after [5 days], the request will be closed and acted upon. If not, the administrator may choose to re-list the request to allow time for consensus to develop, or close it as "no consensus"."
If you wish to change the WP:NC before putting the page up for a move, then go ahead and have a debate on that page first. But until such time as there is another WP:RM request and there is a consensus to move the page the page should remain at Burma. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The fundamental problem is the name of the article. For a RM, a clear consensus to move the page needs to be present. So, to establish consensus for a page move, the side advocating it would be at a clear disadvantage. This so much so because filibusters from the keep side of either name will always prevent the name from being changed. I'm ok with article anyname so as long the end result is not decided as per the RM procedures as that would give a distinct advantage to one side. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that if consensus either way is impossible to reach - which it may be, if compromise is not feasible and community opinion is evenly divided - an alternative process is needed to determine the best solution, though I don't know at this time what the best process would be. Christopher Parham (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
(Response to Nichalp's proposed solution) I think that the article talk page is still the best place to seek a consensus. But, it needs to be moved back to Burma first (preferably by Nichalp so that there is appropriate closure). --Regents Park (Chase my ducks) 14:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Problem with any "Solution"[edit]

Nichalp, the problem is that you made the move and NOW you want to have a neutral third party, and go through the correct process. AFTER you already made your move! What a joke! Now Husond is obviously over reacted and I think being almost uncivil in his attacks against you, but at the core he is right. After you make the move you want to do the right thing, but why not before? Revert your move and then enact your "solution" Beam 17:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I was very concerned when I read the words "almost uncivil" as I could not think of what could possibly be interpreted as almost uncivil in my replies (not attacks) to Nichalp. But then I checked the page history and discovered that this unsigned comment was made by User:Beamathan, whom I blocked a few days ago for unrepentant, continued incivility. I can clearly see the purpose of your words, but I don't think it will be met. WP:CIVIL is a policy that I strictly observe since the day I joined Wikipedia. I would be interested to learn which words of mine you found "almost" uncivil. Húsönd 16:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean for it to be unsigned. I had signed it first, than I had to change the heading to have three = instead of two. Well you talk about his respect going down, and insinuate that he being a "beurocrat" affected his actions. The whole tone, especially what you call stressing the importance of words, when others call it yelling. It's not technically uncivil. Although I'm sure if I made those comments I'd be banned for several years, and perhaps beaten with a stick. Beam 17:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
? Húsönd 18:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm seeing the article at Burma/Myanmar log log =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Should have read this first. Apologies. Nichalp, the article is still at Myanmar. I'm not sure what the log is showing (perhaps the redirect page, no that doesn't make sense) but, I think, everyone is waiting for you. --Regents Park (Chase my ducks) 14:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Admin required to move the article back to Burma[edit]

For some reason, Nichalp is seeing a version that has the article back in Burma and therefore cannot personally move the page back. It his request that some other admin (I would do it but the page is protected) go ahead and do the move as a proxy for him. His request is here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RegentsPark (talkcontribs)

I commend Nichalp on his wise decision, which is set to quench this controversy. Since any administrator could attend to his request, and since the article is still at "Myanmar" as of this moment, would anyone oppose if I move it back? Or would I still be considered biased? (obviously I would prefer if someone else could do it) Húsönd 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you can do it. Technical reasons are the only thing preventing Nichalp from doing it, so it would be as if he had done it. --Regents Park (Chase my ducks) 17:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Nichalp does not get to decide alone that the article should be moved back. Sounds like a recipe for further wheel warring to me. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, you seemed like a staunch supporter of his unilateral action, you even gave him a barnstar. So you're not being consistent as first you applauded him deciding alone, and now you say he doesn't get to decide for everyone else. Well, you may have noticed that he's not deciding alone this time, it is clear above that there's consensus that he shouldn't have done what he did, and that the previous title should be restored. I see no recipe for further wheel warring, just a recipe for a bit of biased outrage, apparently. Húsönd 17:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Squeak, it got changed. Also, please knock it off with the automated "thanks," it is disingenuous to thank a person if you don't really mean it. It is also very irritating. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, as someone who is obsessed with child predators and who thinks Wikipedia is his own personal battleground to fight teh evilz kiddie fiddlers, you ought to be aware that Amnesty International has documented proof that the Military Junta has been caught taking Burmese girls as young as 7 and selling them to Thai child prostitution rings. Do you really want to condone that Squeaky? --Dragon695 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Dragon695, that was not only most inappropriate for here, as it was also very uncivil. Please refrain from this kind of comments by observing WP:CIVIL and allowing others to express their points of view, no matter how ludicrous you may find them. Húsönd 18:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I oppose any further movement until the original move back in October is reviewed by uninvolved admins. That whole episode is the catalyst for months of arguments that led to the current powderkeg. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
To each its own. This move to "Myanmar", clearly wrong, needs to be undone. Prior move to "Burma", within process, we can discuss somewhere else. Mixing the two as a last resort to prevent the article from going back to "Burma" is an implausible approach. Húsönd 17:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly, and I think you know that. It is clear from months of discussion that any future attempts will result in "no consensus", as that October discussion should have been. No change would happen in any no consensus closure, so the "status quo" is obviously critical to where the article is named for the long term. I think it is disingenuous to play the policy card for a move to "Burma" today that results in your preferred article name. The tactics used by the pro-Burma camp since October smack of gaming the system. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, months of discussion will probably still result in no consensus. But, an inadequate closure of a move proposal (as you think last October's was) is much easier to discuss and overturn if other users, especially admins, consider that it was in fact inadequate. Unless that happens, you have just a personal view of that move closure as bad admin performance. And that has no effective grounds for changing anything. But, it's perfectly legitimate to activate mechanisms to verify your claim. Húsönd 18:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

So now we have yet another move, by yet another involved administrator.[9] Wonderful. Why can't anybody show some restraint and common sense over this? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It is now at the originally protected version. It is not uncommon for edits to protected pages to be reverted back to the initially protected version, which is basically what happened here (the protection notice is not very prominent, so its not too unusual for admins to make these mistakes). Doing so upholds the integrity of page protection as applying to all users, including admins. As is normal with page protection it is probably best to leave it in the protected form until the dispute is resolved or progress is otherwise made. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Move reversion legitimate, requested by many users including the admin who performed the now reverted move. What involvement are you complaining about? Or, where's the lack of common sense? This action is long overdue. Húsönd 18:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Husond (t · c · b · p · d · m · r) was roundly criticized for moving Myanmar→Burma after Nicalp's move, as he was "involved", so he (rightly) moved it back. Then MJCdetroit (t · c · b · p · d · m · r) had a go, but was also criticized for the same thing, so he also moved it back. Why is (involved) Philip Baird Shearer (t · c · b · p · d · m · r) above the rest of you? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Firstly we were not "roundly" criticized, I think we received more support than criticism. Still, User:Philip Baird Shearer has nothing to be pointed at because Nichalp himself has requested to be reverted. Simple. Húsönd 19:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Persistent Misuse of the talk page and other yuckies[edit]

User 4d-don [talk:4d-don] on Sahaj Marg page

Personal attacks, extreme lack of AGF, posting of shabby sourced newspaper articles on the talk page, blogging (i.e. discussinng on and on about the topic as opposed to the article), 90% of the posts making accustions about other users, multiple warnings by admin [talk:4d-don#Soapboxing], [talk:4d-don#Again Soapboxing], 4 warnings from me to stop soapboxing, myself and an admin [talk:4d-don#Mediation] offering dispute resolution links , yet he doesn't take action there and and continues his outbursts on the talk page, claiming consensus based on the opinions of blocked users, claiming concensus on the basis of users who have "not arrived yet" and counting sockpuppets of the same user as multiple users. .

This user is a prominent blogger on this New Religious Movement, and cannot or will not make the transition from blog to wikipedia. Sethie (talk) 15:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

User:4d-don is a single-purpose account (see contribs) with a strong COI. Here he lists his anti-Sahaj Marg blog (at the end) and he frequently cross-posts things on his blog to the Wiki Sahaj Marg talk page. There are many odd ranting posts that detract from building the article, for example, this, this, this, and this. He accuses those with different POVs as being "members" or in collusion when this is not true (see this).
I'm somewhat perplexed by Don's behaviors because early on one could work with him and he represented an opposing viewpoint which was nice to have, but increasingly the posts have become more erratic and "threatening," e.g., here he's going to "confer with the team" (presumably his fellow bloggers?) because everyone else on Wiki is so biased...; or here where he says in all caps that he'll "take it to a higher court" and accuses people of "hiding the truth" (see edit summary) and so forth. There seems to be an inability to "hear" what other editors say, even for fairly innocuous things. For example, here he says User:Cult free world and "talk-to-me" are different people when he must know full well they are the same (this clearly shows they're one person; CFW just changed his signature page). Or, here he erases part of a post I did long ago(likely an accident) but then somehow links it to a conspiracy to hide the truth here (scroll to end). These latter posts are really no big deal, they just show 4d-don's inability to discuss even small issues without making everything a big, bold conspiracy to hide the truth.
If he has complaints, fine, he should seek dispute resolution, but the long non-content posts, soap-boxing, and the use of Wikipedia as a blog are disruptive and do not contribute to article-building..Renee (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad someone finally filed a complaint on this user. The soapboxing and grandstanding are old, old, old, as are the personal attacks. Just a few hours ago 4d-don called Sethie a "donkey" here. Please, please help us out. Embhee (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah - What's with this guy? He's outa control. Every yes/no question results in a rambling 5000-word conspiracy theory full of raving and ranting on how everyone's out to get him. Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 20:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I have observed and interacted with 4d-don since Sept 2007. I have not found his behavior always disruptive and contentious having seen his reasonable as well as unreasonable & extreme POVed side. One thing is very clear to me though, he has an agenda on SRCM and Sahaj Marg topics (which he perceives as the Truth) which he wants to spread using Wikipedia as a platform, as he is doing with many blog sites. Most of his efforts on Wikipedia has been in that direction, even though it has met with Deletion several times, after a long process of discussions and reviews. He sometimes goes to extreme extent to get his way and if met with non-consensus, his behavior does become objectionable. Here are some of those instances particularly I have observed: 1) Soapboxing (literally copying/pasting from blog sites): this has happened in Sept 2007 as well as more recently, as mentioned here [10], 2) Attempting to add deleted content multiple times: can not show the actual diff as the content is deleted, but this diff shows: [11], 3) Supported blocked users [12]: he has always worked with User: Shashwat & Rushmi (proven socks), CultFreeWorld (suspected sock of previous two [13]), all of those had a similar agenda and they got blocked because of numerous violations and persistent objectionable behavior, 4) Objectionable response when met with non-consensus: Others have given examples above. Duty2love (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

User:ChrisP2K5 and possible 3rr...[edit]

Not sure if it falls under 3rr(times are close), but continued reverts of The Challengers, with speculation information that isn't encyclopedic. Also has very high incivil edit summaries. This guy needs blocked from all game show related pages. [14] —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I forgot this link also.[15]. Telling people to go to hell falls under incivility, don't you agree? (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the edit summary was uncivil, but it's not so severe it would typically be actionable. However, the content that he keeps trying to add is original resource, is unsourced, and is not particular encyclopedic, so I don't think it belongs in the article. I have issued a 3RR warning to his Talk page, and this could warrant a report to WP:ANI/3RR if the behavior continues. I left the 3RR warning because I still question whether this sentence belongs in the article, but given the issues with the IP sock I am not comfortable pursuing action against ChrisP2K5 over the reversions
On a side note, please refrain from labeling as vandalism edits that have any chance of being in good faith. While I think Chrisp2k5's addition does not belong in the article, he appears to be adding it in good faith, so it is not vandalism. Calling people vandals unnecessarily can also be considered a violation of WP:CIVIL, as well as WP:AGF. It's not a big deal, but please don't do that, as it just tends to stoke the fires and make people even more pissed off than they already are. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I understand that, but not less than two weeks ago, he was doing this same deal on another page with other users. My post is about the pattern he has OVERALL, and the possible connection he has with this site. I think he has family working for WikiMedia, out of all the trouble he has caused, he has never been banned. Most people would have been kicked to the curb by now. Check out his history, and you'll see he had a good pissing contest over a page awhile back. If I find it, I'll add it here for you. Thanks. 18:27, 22 May 2008 (talk)(UTC)
Would you like to explain this personal attack your posted to your talk page? Wildthing61476 (talk) 18:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have had a pissing contest recently. So what? That had something to do with a legitimate fact not being included in an article. This is over your apparent bug up your butt over me. YOU ARE STALKING ME, SIR. You've been doing this for the last two weeks, and I'm tired of it. Why don't you mention the abuse reports filed against you? Why don't you mention the countless IPs of yours that have been blocked recently? Why don't you mention the harassment of other users that you're guilty of perpetrating? Admins, I move that this matter be closed and the IP in question banned, just like all the others. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 18:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Many people are sick of him on here, per this diff [16]. Harboring trolls doesn't look good on your company, even though you are a not for profit agency. It's no wonder that this site is a banned source for many college students. I give up. (talk) 18:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said before, that and this incident have nothing to do with each other. YOU ARE STALKING ME, sir, just like you have in the past. AGAIN, I move this matter closed and the IP banned. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And just for the record, the admins have dealt with this banned user and his stalking recently. Check incident 23 on this board. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 18:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I wonder who this sock could be? Interesting that it popped up in the last 5 minutes.[17]. Looks pretty obvious it's Mr. Palmer. (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't just pop up in the last five minutes, actually. You're the one who attacked me a while back on my user page, and again today. This is obvious trolling by a sock user who, as can be found on this board, is really causing problems for everybody he crosses. Dayewalker (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
A request for a checkuser would prove that Dayewalker is indeed ChrisP2K5. It's obvious, but go through the formalities per your policy. (talk) 19:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a full understanding of all these wikipedia policies, but I seriously doubt that IP addresses of blocked users who make edits as above and leave edit summaries like "go f yourself" can make requests like that. Dayewalker (talk) 19:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You don't have much faith in the intelligence of the mods, do you Harvey? --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 19:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Who is Harvey? And why you are you using real names on here? Not smart, are ya Palmer? Anyhow, your Perry Mason moment was removed, but you do act like a lawyer. You give them a bad name without a doubt. (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok both of you stop with the name-calling and personal attacks back and forth. I'm not an admin, but enough view this board and action WILL be taken if this keeps up. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I echo Wildthing's advice that "both of you stop". When I initially read this report, I thought it was a simple case of two editors acting in good faith and getting in a revert war. I now believe both editors are acting out of mutual loathing and that this is yet another manifestation of a long-running feud by users who know each other very well. Both editors need to calm down immediately.
As far as the allegations that the 99.* IP is a sock, please take it to WP:SSP. Thanks. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Very well, I took the "Dayewalker/ChrisP2K5" case to the SSP page,only for "Dayewalker" to revert it. Don't you guys have safeguards in place on these administrative pages? (talk) 19:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I took it over there, because it's obvious that Dayewalker is an Hdayejr sock. Did you people forget that this man threatened legal action against the Wiki? --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Chris, I'm not a sock. Your talk page is protected so I can't leave you a message to discuss this, so please stop attacking me on mine. I'm not a sock of either one of these two editors, and I'd like for someone to show me a single edit where I did anything other than oppose the rampant sock parade that is Hdayejr. Take a look at my edits please, and show me where I've been unconstructive in any way, or reverted to an edit by the banned user.
I'm trying to help here, and my edit history will show that. Dayewalker (talk) 20:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  •  Note: Based on checkuser findings, ChrisP2K5 is not a sockpuppet or puppetmaster of anyone. Dayewalker is not a sockpuppet of Hdayejr but is probably a sockpuppet of someone else, this requires more study. The 99 editor appears to be using Spring PCS wireless that does not allow geolocation, but he quacks just and others who are consistent with Hdayejr. Thatcher 20:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. There is only one Wiki user that's been stalking me, and that's Hdayejr. Furthermore, it's not unlike him to make himself look like he's someone else, as anyone who's dealt with him can attest to. I'm sorry, but I cannot accept those results because they appear to me to be false. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Two different IPs located in different US states 1000 miles apart. Thatcher 21:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No offense, Thatcher, but did you check it with one IP, or all of the IPs that exibited behavior not unlike Hdayejr's?— dαlusT@lk / Improve 21:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And furthermore, Thatcher, Hdayejr's web-posting history has seen him obtain different IP addresses from other areas of the country that are not from his (he's from Ohio, originally). Just because the IPs are from different parts of the country doesn't mean anything. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 21:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so what country would I have to move to to prove I'm not Hdayejr? He's attacked me on my page, I've reverted his edits, and a Checkuser showed I'm 1000 miles away. What more would you ask for? I can't comment on your page, ChrisP2K5, so I've sent you an email. Dayewalker (talk) 21:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Read, responded, accusations retracted. Think I might get your drift now. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 22:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You'll never convince Chris of anything, he is always right, every anonymous ip is Hdayejr, blah blah blah. I happen to be an off duty police detective, and Hdayejr might have a case of internet stalking against you. You best hope that we don't get all the information we need because you might need a lawyer and soon. (talk) 21:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: I just warned the IP for making legal threats. Also, this is pretty clearly a sock of Hdayejr (WP:DUCK) so a short block would not be at all inappropriate (if any admins are still reading this debacle, ha ha ha) --Jaysweet (talk) 21:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep, he's definitely up to his old tricks. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 22:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(OD-edit conflict)As an update, User: is active right now, and appears to be attacking my page in the name of Hdayejr. He also posted this above message, which would seem to indicate he's Hdayejr again. Can somebody do something, please? Dayewalker (talk) 21:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this specific thread can be marked "Resolved", as it is clear that the revert war in question is over, the IP in question has been identified as a sock, and Dayewalker has been cleared for now. As to what do about persistent sock vandal/stalker/legal-threatener Hdayejr.... Well, that's another story. :/ --Jaysweet (talk) 22:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Isis Gee article being distorted[edit]

As you understand, verifiability is important. As such, the media response to the manipulation if Youtube and wiki was sourced to a Polish magazine published by As a respected magazine with a large circulation in Poland this is considered to be a reliable source). The statements in question were proven in the article and cannot be considered to be rumours. The comments sourced as per reliable source by BBC host who is well respected as a commentator of eurovision who has been written up in UK newspapers over the past few days were written in a non-POV manner and provide more sources for her performance which came last. As Eurovision is a contest that Isis Gee tried to win her results ( place and critic of performance ) are not given undue weight. The article already went through WP:3O and User:Kevin Murray supported removal unless sourced. This was not completed as User:PrinceGlora and yourself have not responded to my points. In face, although User:Kevin Murray removed the false and unsourced Polish nationality of Isis User:PrinceGlora and yourslef reverted versions that included a unsourced material and false statements about her position in the contest which violated WP:BLP.

I ask Ricky81682 to add to the WP:3O initiated by User:Kevin Murray and stop wasting admin time with entries such as this. Would some other admin like to get involved and settle this again?

Eurovisionman (talk) 20:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

A user whose account was only set up a few days ago and whose edits concentrate on the Isis Gee article and one of her entry in the Eurovision Song Contest (For Life (Isis Gee song)) is making rather disruptive edits to both articles. Please see both pages' histories and talk pages, as well as User talk:Eurovisionman for details. I would appreciate some admin assistance here. PrinceGloria (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

While there was some admin interest and a member of the Mediation Cabal has started a procedure on the article, I would like to note the user is still being disruptive. Additional admin assistance is still needed due to intensity of his actions. PrinceGloria (talk) 22:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I remove this section. A radio DJ suggests she was born a man? From a blog? Not in English? On a living person? So much wrong with that. The rest is just a content dispute and doesn't really belong here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I tried to find a way to get User:Eurovisionman to cooperate in an informal 3O style resolution, but he is bent on getting very questionable information into the article before a Eurovision competition this weekend (see comment his talk page). Much of the info is very questionable per BLP. After exhausting all other method, I've asked for a block after innumerable violations of 3RR. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Coz 11 and legal threats[edit]

User:Coz 11 has been blocked twice this month for violations of WP:3RR. Both times he was reported by me. As a result, in his latest unblock request he threatened to pursue harassment complaints against me. His wording is ambiguous, and he may have just meant that he plans to try to have me blocked from Wikipedia. But, if he meant that he plans to pursue legal action against me, then I think an administrator should block him. I shouldn't have my life sabotaged because one person is upset over how a Wikipedia article is being edited. If an administrator could get clarification from him on his intents and take appropriate action, I would appreciate it. I would ask him to clarify himself, but I don't want to be seen as antagonizing him while he is blocked. And, as ridiculous as this is, I don't want to be seen as harassing him. Chicken Wing (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it. Harassment is a term commonly used on Wikipedia in our process so try to assume the best of him. If he does do something to make clear that it is legal then bring it back here. gren グレン 22:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Gotcha. Chicken Wing (talk) 23:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


I do not appreciate being wikistalked by this SPA User:Mrshaba (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) who only edits one article, Solar energy. See [18]. Now that the article has been unprotected they refuse to participate and have spent their time stalking me instead. I do not appreciate it. (talk) 06:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like to make reference to one or more diffs to support your objection? Looking at that list of contribs turns up a lot of edits, but none specifically are to your talk page or to pages that are manifestly related to you. Maybe I'm not looking at the right pages. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 06:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I've just spent 10 minutes looking, and found one case where he edited just after the IP did on an article, and he left what appears to be a perfectly civil and useful statement on a checkpoint on the capacity of a station in a given year. Loren.wilton (talk) 07:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
So I guess you didn't notice the 5RR in 24 hrs after he asked that Solar energy be semi-protected so that he could edit it but I couldn't? (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
5RR. Well, that's interesting. Let's look at this. You ate a big hunk of the Solar Energy page with a summary of 'moving to subpage'. ClueBot reverted you for vandalism. You deleted again. Mrshaba reverted you with a summary of "a move this big needs to be discussed on the talk page". You deleted again. Mrshaba set up a section on the talk page to discuss the move. In some order you deleted again, and left the highly useful discussion of "no discussion necessary, just do it". That is exceptionally thick of you. If he is reverting your BOLD move, then it means that you DO NOT have consensus on the move. The thing to do is discuss this. He even said the thing to do was discuss it. You didn't discuss it, you said "I'm just gonna do it", with absolutely no reason WHY you were gonna do it. Guess what, you got reverted again, several more times. I suggest you read WP:BRD. You got the Bold part right. And you got Reverted. You completely failed on the Discuss part. So he went 5RR trying to keep you from whacking out a big hunk of the page for no described reason. But you seem to have gone at least 6RR doing it, counting the ClueBot revert at the start. Loren.wilton (talk) 09:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually I was the one who was asking him to discuss it, he was the one who refused. He only added the section on the talk page after he noted that the page was going to be unprotected, at 15:41, 21 May 2008. There have been no deletions since. But there certainly could be in the future, they certainly are needed. And yes I was going to go to 100 RRs if he didn't discuss it but just reverted. But reverting a Bot surely doesn't count. And you can't count the first edit either. So that's 4 by me, 5 by him. (talk) 16:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The page was unprotected at 18:42, 21 May 2008. Since then they made 14 edits, only three of which were not related to stalking me, or perhaps who he thought might be me. I am sure that I am not the only editor using this group of IP addresses.[19] He even has a whole section entitled "General Distractions".[20][21] [22] He oddly thinks that I'm a problem,[23] although I have long warned him about the dangers of being an SPA. He then goes back to adding more to his "General Distractions" section.[24][25] More questions about how to deal with me.[26] Finally at 03:38, 22 May 2008 he moved on to working on an article, by commenting on the talk page and contacting a frequent editor of that article. I've left enough warnings on his talk page that he certainly isn't going to leave any on mine.[27] (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Mrshaba's edits date back to 2006 and he has a clear block log seemingly with no major problems. Apparently edits mainly the article on Solar energy but that in and of itself is not a problem. We talk about SPAs in a negative context when they are created by users solely to advanced a point of view, this does not seem to be one of those situations and hence portraying this user here on AN/I as an "SPA" is wrong.--Jersey Devil (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
SPAs can also be problematical in more ways than POV. Try editing an article that someone is guarding as "their article". It's no fun. (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I am also around on the solar energy article and don't see the purpose of this complaint. There is absolutely no call for edit warring. Nothing really at issue, just that this anon has some complaint against Mrshaba that I don't understand. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It's simple. If they are in a huff about having to let someone else edit their article they should not be spending their time stalking me instead of editing. (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Would someone mind asking Mrshaba to just chill out? I would like to get back to editing and do not appreciate being stalked. (talk) 22:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless you have some diffs showing Mrshaba following you to other articles to maliciously revert your edits, I suggest you drop the "stalking" accusations. An edit war on a single article is hardly stalking. So far, all I'm seeing is a content dispute; Mrshaba hasn't done anything incivil. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 00:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It's like if I wanted a user page I would create one. I just don't appreciate someone digging up old edits and creating a page to archive them on. They clearly serve no good purpose. If they want to analyze my edits on a local file on their own computer they are welcome to. Just don't use Wikipedia servers for that. If they want to file a complaint they are welcome to do so, but creating a "user profile" and labeling it "General Distractions" is beyond bizarre. There are no "general distractions" in that section. There is only an attempt to profile one person. Me. That's not general distractions. That's harassment. However, as indicated below, we do have a ceasefire on the edit-war front. (talk) 02:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully we now have a ceasefire on the edit-war front. However, the underlying content dispute still needs to be handled by someone more familiar with the subject matter. Owen× 01:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


Hi would somebody please take note of User:Dynamization. He is under the impression I am a beginner or vandal or something. He has also reverted kind and innocent messages I have tried to leave on a colleagues talk page. I also tried to leave him a note and explain it was an innocent procedure but he even reverted my message too. Could somebody intervene and kindly explain to him I am an established editor with good intentions. Thanks ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 12:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

  • This appears to be abuse of Huggle by Dynamization. EJF (talk) 12:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Mmm he reverted three of my constructive edits in quick succession. He seems to be mixing the vandalism up with the good stuff. He seems to have good intentions in regards to article protection which is always a great thing but perhaps someone could speak to him, Regards ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 12:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

  • We had a discussion about this, WP:AN#Huggle. Huggle, like any automatic tool, may be removed if the user uses it badly. In this case, the user has only made 15 edits before using Huggle. The user is not skilled enough to use the tool properly, and says that he "is crazy about it". Several users have already complained. A warning would be useless I think. Cenarium (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Just take him off of Huggle, for the love of god. NATO.Caliber (talk) 13:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, he stopped editing, so I'm going to wait on removing huggle... but if he resumes huggling without discussing the matter or - at the very least - acknowledging the concerns of myself and others, yes it needs to be removed. As noted, I've warned the user. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
He's using Huggle right now and has not responded. Cenarium (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
At least three established editors have requested that he respond, but he has failed to do so and is still continuing to revert without an explanation as to his earlier edits. I'm not certain why somebody with 25 edits was given this tool. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 16:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Users give Huggle to themselves, there's no confirmation process. J Milburn (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I've suggested over at Huggle that Huggle refuse to run for someone without X edits, where X is some reasonable value. Perhaps that will be done. However, I third the remarks above about removing Huggle for this user until they wise up. Loren.wilton (talk) 02:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Taken away. I know him IRL, which is why I'm in the history of his config page as enabling it. Guys, this is so simple in my mind. Please do not be afraid of taking away huggle from anyone - it's a privilege, not a right, just like editing Wikipedia is. Huggle was abused, it's gone for 6 weeks. I'm a little saddened that it ended up like this, but hey... Alex Muller 06:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick opinion requested[edit]

Can I have a quick opinion on the recent actions of BackStagePass (talk · contribs)? The user is repeatedly removing "replaceable fair use" speedy deletion tags from Image:Quantel hq.jpg, Image:DFS3000.jpg, and Image:Quantel Paintbox2.jpg. Kelly hi! 19:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't answer your question, but I note that none of those images has a fair use rationale. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You are entirely in the right, and the user is not following process. I have warned him or her on the user's talk page. If this continues, a block may eventually follow. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The user was making some reasonable attempts. Our image policies and procedures aren't intuitive; I had some trouble hunting down the proper template myself. I've fixed two of the images; the third doesn't explicitly fall under Quantel's permissions statement. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandal IP[edit]

It performs a fix on one of SqueakBox's pictures, and then vandalises mine. SqueakBox appears in a matter of seconds to "fix" the vandalism. Bear in mind that SqueakBox is the editor who attempts to caricature unbiased and friendly others as advocates of pedophilia (despite the fact that they denounce child abuse - I will provide diffs, if you like), and has strongly opposed my editing on some articles.

This looks odd, from SqueakBox's point of view. Is there any bot he could have used to do this so quickly? (If so, I thank him for this one time).

Anyway, regardless of this, the vandal should be banned, Sprint PCS (the same network that a similar vandal used) should also be banned. J*Lambton T/C 22:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That was several days ago, and the IP has only made two edits, so there is nothing that can be done there.
As far as squeakbox catching and fixing the vandal edit, there are a number of ways that it could have happened. He could be running some tool like VandalFighter that monitors recent changes and seen the change. He could have seen the change to his picture and suspiciously looked at contributions from the user and seen the error on your page. Or maybe he has your talk page watchlisted for some reason. Loren.wilton (talk) 03:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

User unleashes sporadic personal attacks[edit]

Once an active user, Langloisrg (talk · contribs), after getting tired of editing wikipedia in Sept. 2007 stopped editing and in Feb. 2008 said that was my fault. It was really shocking to me and I asked explanations because I had no issues with him. In Apr. 2008, his first vandalism occurred, very personally directed. I did no actions here back then. Yesterday, another bunch of attacks came: first a personal attack (what a work!), and then reverting some edits made by me: [28], [29], and then attempting a dubious AfD of a page recently created by me.

Now after this latest bunch of events, I feel really disturbed. I don't want to see such things happen on wiki. My request is to block the user indefinitely, as it appears is not going to continue with constructive work.

Thanks, --TheFEARgod (Ч) 11:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I've issued a warning for the personal attack. This editor seemed to be constructive in the past, so perhaps we should see if the warning works. Kevin (talk) 12:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to state that the reason I got tired of editing was because every time I created an article the feargod deleted or reverted it with extremely rude comments.. I admit that some of the articles needed work and that the format may not have been correct but rather than explain to me what was wrong and how to do it correctly he would simply blast me with rude comments and treat me like I was an idiot. Also he frequently made POV comments whenever I would add info regarding a military op or Iraq related article. It became very obvious that this user wa anti US, anti Iraq War and anti military. Personnel I think that someone needs to give him or her some lessons in tact. Don't take my word for it go back and review some of the comments that the fear god has left on edits and you'll see what I mean.--Langloisrg (talk) 13:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
your baseless accusations cannot justify your lunatic vandalistic behaviour. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 16:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Your personal attack above is also unjustified. Kevin (talk) 01:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course YOUR going to say there baseless there about YOU, I would expect no less from someone who obviously has their own agenda about what Iraq war related information should be on wikipedia. If anyone puts something in an iraq related article that doesn't portray the US as a bunch of warhungry criminals you jump in and delete it as POV.--Langloisrg (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Langloisrg -- if you feel TheFEARgod has behaved inappropriately, the thing to do is file a report on this noticeboard or seek arbitration or otherwise follow the WP:Dispute resolution process. However, the personal attacks (such as adding "asshole" all over TheFEARgod's user page) are not acceptable no matter what. In fact, they would not even be acceptable as retaliation for a direct personal attack -- if, hypothetically, TheFEARgod were to respond by calling you an asshole on your user page, he could be blocked for that.
If you want to seek resolution over the perceived injustices you allege, please follow the directions at WP:Dispute resolution. However, if you continue the personal attacks you will be blocked without further notice.
I will repeat this message on your user talk page. Thanks, and have a nice day. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Whether you block me is irrelivent, all I have to do is create another USERNAME. Besides it has become apparent to me that the majority of the editors with high participation rates only want to create drama and bicker and banter about what is or isn't MOS or some other wikirule. Rather than be an online compendium of human knowledge has turned out to be nothing more than a good guy club full or clicks and anyone new who hasn't been editing for year and knows all the rules is written off as a vandal. By the way the first time I even heard of this page was when the link was left on my talk page. Thats part of the problem, wikipedia has become such a sea of pages and articles and forums with subpages branching out like spiderwebs its nearly impossible for a new user to get any resolution on a problem. As far as the activity on the feargods page it was easy to fix and I felt a great deal of stress relief so I will be good on the vandalism for quite sometime.--Langloisrg (talk) 17:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a recommendation TFG if you are a little nicer in your edit summaries and the comments you leave you might not have this happen as often. I don't think you mean too ut sometimes your comments are quite rude and/or insulting. Not trying to preach just something that I too had noticed. I just stopped editing those articles and didn't turn to this violence.--Kumioko (talk) 21:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I hear that again and again, now I want to see evidences--TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
btw you too had a 3-month delayed accusation, if I am right.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Editor COYW and York University[edit]

This editor has been involved in a contretemps at Schulich School of Business which is spilling over to York U. My involvement has been admonishing User talk:Cyril2006 for misbehaviour, then cleaning up the university rankings section after the appearance of some other editors (one an SPA). After this, the SPA and an IP made some unsourced edits, and COYW responded in apparent point-y fashion. I've tried some talk page stuff, but COYW has responded somewhat combatively and now appears to have broken 3RR, now that I look again, 5RR or so.

Admin attention is requested. I may have technically also broken 3RR but I was counting, and I'm done for the night there anyway. Thanks! Franamax (talk) 06:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

"Point-y"-ness aside, you write about consensus, don't have it, but edit anyway. You write about having a "single" addition to the York page, from another page, but you do not explain how you arrived at the number or what addition is suitable. I am interested to know who chooses these "single" or "one or two" additions-- and why? If you want to add a single thing to the page, how about a link to all the info on the other pages-- which have branched out and are developing independently. They have branched out for a reason. (Yet another story, but I digress). Can you explain why I should believe you are above cherry-picking information for your redundant postings? There are just too many flaws in your logic. I'll have a beer with you, sure, but I won't say what you are doing is correct. Call that combative, too, if you wish. I will call your interest in the "global excellence" of the subject something that needs to be tempered (and admonished). Fair enough? COYW (talk) 07:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
(restored header, indent above) Bringing the content argument here is not productive of admin time, I'm asking for attention to the behaviour issues to defuse this situation. Franamax (talk) 07:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

PCPP (talk · contribs)[edit]

Since January, this user has continuously blanked the article Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong about a notable organization that has survived AfD [30] and redirected the article to Reports of organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners in China in order to minimalize articles concerning the persecution of the Falun Gong. The user consistently makes pro-China edits and engages in edit-wars. I'm including the diffs below to how many times he has redirected this specific article after AfD despite warnings to stop: [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38]

Again, this behavior has been going on for 5 months now with no end in sight. --Ave Caesar (talk) 13:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

By his editing patterns and comment on his user page, I highly suspect that