Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive442

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Resolved: Misunderstanding involving cat vs sub-cat. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not used to using ANI so I hope I am doing this right. I am asking for an Admin to look at User:Dakinijones's contribs and if necessary take preliminary injunctive action (topic ban/block) until this can be sorted out. I have asked the user to explain some of his actions and also notified the user of this ANI request at the same time[1]. I am seeing an odd pattern of edits that makes no sense to me. What caught my eye was a series of undiscussed edits making removals of category "Spirituality" from a number of articles that clearly involve spiritual matters. I do AGF but it would be helpful to know why this particular change to these particular articles. Another thing that caught my attention is that the editor is using an account that was created more than a year ago, made two edits and then went quiet, and now suddenly became very active less than a month ago and has made well over 500 edits in that short time. Low Sea (talk) 00:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

My apologies if my actions have troubled Low Sea. I didn't remove any articles from spirituality - which is tagged as a category that tends to over-populate - since they are all in subcategories of spirituality. Mostly immediate sub-categories. I noted from her user page that she had a particular concern with the New Thought movement (which is a couple of categories down the tree) and so have suggested that if that's her main concern she either move the sub-category for New Thought up the category tree so that it's immediately under spirituality or just put the lead article for New Thought in spirituality. Since spirituality category tends to get over-populated I didn't believe it was appropriate to have - for example - articles about particular New Thought churches in Spirituality. My actions were only intended to somewhat depopulate an over-populated high domain category. Dakinijones (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I hereby withdraw my ANI request now that a clear explanation of the issue has been provided. The user was "restructuring" category tags, not "removing" them as was incorrectly described in the editsummaries. I have also left some suggestions for Dakinijones on his/her talk page to help them try and prevent such misunderstandings in the future. Thank you to the Admins who kept an eye on this until matters were more clear. Low Sea (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit offensive edit summary?[edit]

Resolved: deleted, as requested SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can an admin. edit/erase this edit's offensive edit summary? --EEMIV (talk) 01:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, admins can't alter edit summaries. There is a proposal, however, on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Being able to edit your edit summaries to give editors the ability to edit their own edit summaries. - auburnpilot talk 01:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
You should probably request oversight for it. If you want, I can file the request for you. J.delanoygabsadds 01:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
You don't need it oversighted. Oversight is mainly for privacy issues. Revision deleted, edit summary gone. Neıl 02:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Much obliged. --EEMIV (talk) 02:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


Kossack4Truth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

This editor, fresh from his battles on the Obama page, is editing Heather Wilson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). He questions whether mention of her involvement with the U.S. Attorney firing controversy should be in the lede. I have no problem discussing this and in fact the page editors have done so at Talk:Heather Wilson#WP:BLP violation.

June 30: T4K deleted the mention with no edit summary. [2] I reverted. No problem.[3]

July 2: T4K deleted again.[4] Posted concerns at talk page, protesting that no one should accuse him of not being a good Democrat. Seemed a bit strong since no one was doing so, but no problem.[5] Another editor reverted.[6] Discussions ensused without his partipation on July 2nd which were nearing consensus. T4K later posted that because the article, as he determined, had a history of bias (all of which had been repaired), he felt that was sufficient cause to delete. He didn't address the issues raised by other editors.[7]

July 3: Before any editors could respond, he deleted the mention again.[8] I reverted asking again to please participate before deleting.[9] He reverted again, complaining that "I notice there was no response to my Talk page post last night." In his most recent reversion, he threatened in the edit summary, "Removing obvious WP:BLP violation. Revert again, and this will go to the BLP noticeboard and I will seek to have you blocked."[10] However, the controversy is in the body of the article and well sourced. T4K was protesting the mention in the lede.

If this editor was a newbie, I would be happy to (as I always do) patiently walk through the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. However, this isn't a new editor but one with a history of contentious editing practices. I refuse to participate in edit warring with this editor and I don't see from either his past history or his current curious way of participating on the talk page that collegial discussion is going to start happening. Therefore, I ask for the guidance of admins to intervene in this manner by reviewing the short talk section to see the good faith of the editors involved and taking whatever actions are necessary. ∴ Therefore | talk 13:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Timing is everything. I posted my concerns on the Talk page last night. No response for at least 9-10 hours. I removed the offensive WP:BLP violation and was reverted by the complaining editor within six minutes. [11] The complaining editor was ignoring the attempt to discuss on the Talk page, but the minute there was an edit in the article mainspace, it was time to take action.
I will repeat what I said at the BLP noticeboard: We have a dispute in an article that has seen at least one previous, outrageous, indefensible BLP violation against the husband of the biography's subject, calling him a child molester in a bold section header when he had been cleared in the investigation. There is source material indicating that at one time, Congresswoman Heather Wilson was under preliminary investigation by the House Ethics Committee. However, the most recent reliable source has a spokesperson for the committee saying that he is unaware of any such investigation.
We have an editor, User:Therefore, pushing to include a paragraph in the article lead claiming, "Currently, she is under a preliminary investigation by the House Ethics Committee over an alleged inappropriate contact with the United States Attorney for the District of New Mexico by inquiring, shortly before an election in which she faced a stiff challenge, on the status of a corruption investigation involving a Democratic politician."
This editor's only concession was to add the following sentence at the end of the paragraph: "However, an official investigation has not been confirmed." In my opinion, without confirmation, it does not go into the lead of the article. This report is clearly retaliatory since I posted on the BLP noticeboard first. Thoughts and comments, please. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
By the way, did I mention that elsewhere in the article, we hadf a proven incident of plagiarism? There was an obvious cut-and-paste of quite a bit of material from a list of anti-Wilson talking points published by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. That's three different policy violations and all of them tended to attack Heather Wilson and her husband. I'm a Democrat, and I can't accept this continued course of conduct (accidental or not) at a supposedly neutral online encyclopedia. I checked my bias at the door. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I will let the article talk page speak for the facts of this case since I neither wrote nor "pushed" said sentence, to the contrary. Just as an aside, I was the editor who participated in repairing all past problems with the article. ∴ Therefore | talk 13:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This alleged preliminary unconfirmed investigation is the kind of thing the BLP policy is supposed to guard against; K4T was right to keep it out. The accusation doesn't belong in the lede, in any case, since that would constitute undue emphasis on the matter. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Gentle NLT reminder requested[edit]

Fairly mild references to legal action have been made by User:Franz weber at Talk:Nova Publishers. Search that page for "law" and "court" to find them. I think this is simply a case of an inexperienced and frustrated user, so don't be hard on him, if indeed action is needed at all. The WP:LEGAL page seems to have changed since I was last conversant with it, so I think it would be best to have someone uninvolved look at this, rather than reproving him myself. Thanks, --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 13:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I've left a friendly note. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I am following up on the articles involved alsoDGG (talk) 19:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Check77 and NY road articles[edit]

Archived discussion hidden

User:Check77 continues to post incorrect information to NY Road articles for several months and he has yet to be blocked for it. He also removes stuff from his talk (not archiving, but just outright deletion), including on several warnings. Is this enough grounds for a block?Mitch32(UP) 18:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For better or worse, user's are allowed to remove warnings from their talk page (see WP:DRC). They are still visible in the edit history.
Glancing through the edit history of User talk:Check77, I do see a lot of warnings, though most of what I saw is in regards to trying to restore deleted articles rather than incorrect information. Do you have recent diffs showing Check77 adding clearly incorrect information to articles? Has he been issued a "final warning" in regards to this?
I'll take a closer look at his contribs, but if you could provide diffs, that would help me get to the bottom of this faster. Thanks! :) --Jaysweet (talk) 19:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Here are a bunch: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] - These are clear proof that Check77 is not benefitting things - in fact, he is removing vital information.Mitch32(UP) 19:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I can verify that [18] and [19] are incorrect. He seems to be assuming there's a pattern where 4xx always replaced xx - so it's both original research and flat wrong. I assume he's been told what he's doing is incorrect, and not just been given vandalism notices? --NE2 19:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
He just did this again, and I reverted his edit. I personally remember when Veterans Memorial Highway was designated NYS Route 454, and it had nothing to do with NY 54. It was originally Suffolk County Roads 78 and 76, and never anything else. ----DanTD (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe he was told when he made New York State Route 21A and claimed it and a Route 717 along with a Napay, New York existed.Mitch32(UP) 19:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh, I'll never understand road enthusiasts, even though I have a good friend IRL who is one, and I value the work they do for Wikipedia -- I'll still never understand :D hehehe
Anyway, thanks for the clarifications, guys, I was having trouble understanding what the issue is. It is difficult to say to what extent people have tried to explain the problem to Check77, because he just deletes all comments from his talk page. I gave him a notice about this thread, but dollars to doughnuts I bet he deletes that too :D
If he continues to make these controversial edits without engaging in dialog, he will need to be blocked. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I gave him pretty explicit instructions on how to proceed here, and warned him that he could wind up getting blocked if he continues to stick his fingers in his ears. If he deletes that without responding to NE2's concerns about original research, I will give him a final warning and/or ask that he be blocked. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I warned this user at least once (see [20]) and I'm inclined to block now. Bearian (talk) 23:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think I might agree. After I issued the warning, I poked around trying to understand the user's edits... and I think we might be dealing with a subtle troll. All of his road-related edits are too subtle for a non-road enthusiast to understand, and yet they get almost universally reverted. I think this may be the road enthusiast equivalent of the people who go around transposing all the numbers in random articles... --Jaysweet (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I just reverted him blanking [21] the former routes from List of State Routes in New York again. -- Kéiryn (talk) 18:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

...which was reverted and re-reverted (by a different watchdog while I was posting here) within 3 minutes. -- Kéiryn (talk) 18:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Here's more: [22] and [23]. Bearian (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
and another [[24]]. --Polaron | Talk 20:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't reverting info or anything, It clearly states that 3 digit routes starting with 4's are old parts of a route with the last two digits as of NYS Routes. Like 488, they put a 4 infront of it to notice that was part of the route 88. 2 digits after the 4 are 88. However 1 digits, like 3 add 40 before the 3 but it still applies because 3 is equaliviant to 03, 003, etc. As of this "Blanking thing" route 2 is set back to it's spot above 3 on the list, instead of next to the From, To, etc. If of any other incovinence please put info on my talk page, and have conversations there. --Check77 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I just blocked Check77 for a 3RR violation after being warned. I'm new, so if 24 hours is too much, please reduce it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

When the user's unblocked, he'll have to realize that not all 3 digit routes starting with 4's are old parts of a route with the last two digits of former NYS Routes. NY 448 for example, was originally part of NY 117. ----DanTD (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

These users continously undo edits that are factual and more accurate. They force users like "Road Lover" users to reedit the info.

- Please look into this, they aren't the only ones I believe.

--Check77 (talk) 20:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide some diffs to some evidence? Seddσn talk Editor Review 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC
Please do not remove other editors comments. Seddσn talk Editor Review 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
If you're talking about New York State Route 454, it's you that's wrong, not Polaron and Mitchazenia. ----DanTD (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I see here Check77 inserted a badly punctuated alteration[25] that Mitch removed[26] and Check77 put back in.[27] Also Check77 removed a request for evidence from a commenter to this thread. He alters posts from other editors in talk space as well and has received multiple warnings including a final warning for vandalism.[28][29] Recommend a block for vandalism and disruption. DurovaCharge! 20:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I have indef-blocked Check77. If anyone feels this is overkill, then feel free to reduce, but the New York route editors have been dealing with him for months, and I see no use in continuing to subject them to wasting their time with this editor, as he appears to have no intention of shaping up. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Um, yeah. Overkill, probably. I was just asking for a block since the fellow was actively edit warring and blanking other people's posts. Unless this is a vandalism-only account (which I don't know the subject well enough to assess), let's give this person a few chances to adjust to our standards. DurovaCharge! 21:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I don't know what the best course of action would be here. Some of his older contributions (and a select few of his more recent ones as well) appear to be in good faith – expanding route descriptions, albeit poorly, and the like. But he has certainly made a number of bad faith edits as well – continuing to insist that the clearly incorrect 4xx numbering scheme is right, achieving a rare 6 or 7RR on List of State Routes in New York, and starting frivolous and incoherent counterthreads on this noticeboard. Personally, while I'm not opposed to a permablock, if I were an admin (which thank God I'm not) I'd give him 24-48 h and his absolute final warning. -- Kéiryn (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Normally what we do is explain site norms and offer a few chances to get it right. Not an infinite number of chances, but a bit more than this if the editor may be confused rather than deliberate trolling. DurovaCharge! 04:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: The user is back as User:Chessecake. He hasn't done anything "bad" yet under the new user name as of this writing. --Polaron | Talk 16:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

He did use it to agree with himself at one point, which is definitely against the rules for alternate accounts...--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
If the userpage is not more obvious, I've indef'ed this account and have extended the block on Check77. The contributions clearly indicate this is Check77 -- part of a long-term abuse issue. seicer | talk | contribs 19:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Is James Randi Foundation website a reliable/notable source?[edit]

Resolved: Directed to more appropriate forum. MastCell Talk 20:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, sorry to bother you, but there has been an on-going dispute with this, by one particuallar editor:

This dispute has discouraged and driven away some editors, so I would like to ask for an admin opinion on weitehr James Randi Foundation is a reliable/notable source, or if it's a blog disallowed by Wikipedia?

Thanks! Bobby fletcher (talk) 19:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin but recommend you to solicit feedback from Wikipedia:RS/N. In general, blogs are disallowed as a RS except in narrow circumstances.Professor marginalia (talk) 19:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(ec)The James Randi Foundation is notable but I don't think it's a reliable source. It's self-published to begin with and James Randi is as non-neutral and prejudiced as one can get when it comes to matters of spirituality. Myself, I happen to agree with most of what he has to say but I would not use him as an encyclopedic reference. SWik78 (talkcontribs) 19:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
This isn't the right forum to discuss whether a source is reliable. Try the reliable sources noticeboard, but before you post, please read the archives. Randi has been discussed many times already, so see what you can glean before posting another thread. MastCell Talk 20:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Continued Vandalism at the Viktor Rydberg Site[edit]

This is outrageous!!!

In his most recent revision, RSRadford wrote:

Henrik Schück wrote at the turn of the 20th century that he considered Rydberg the "last —and poetically most gifted —of the mythological school founded by Jacob Grimm and represented by such men as Adalbert Kuhn" which is "strongly synthetic" in its understanding of myth.[1] Of this work, Nazi sympathizer and scholar Jan de Vries, said:

Now scholars who support Rydberg's mythological works are slandered as "Nazi sympathizers"?! It's bad enough that Radford has attempted to falsify the entry with accusatations that Viktor Rydberg was a criminal homosexual, a child rapist, and most recently a baby-killer, but now scholars who support him are slandered as "Nazi sympathizers." This is just one more of Radford's cheap attempts to editorialize by making serious accusatations against people no longer able to defend themselves. It is despicable! When is this nonsense going to end?

How long to we have to endure this willful vandalism of the entry by RSRAdford, an editor who shows only contempt for Viktor Rydberg and his work? Please see his online work. It was removed from the reference section of the entry some time ago, because it "reads like a joke" in the words of one admin. Since that time, Radford has made a concerted effort to import its origional research into the entry. Why has this been allowed to continue? Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

POV spamming on user talk pages[edit]

Hi. Can an admin please take a look at the actions of HagiMalachi (talk · contribs) who took it upon himself to spam the same message to multiple users, addressing them all as "Rabbi," to complain and try get his way: [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] with a lengthy canned message about a "Zionist offencive (sic)" and "Zionist intolerance" messages that reflect his own POV agenda. IZAK (talk) 10:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm offended — in part that he missed me. I guess I'm not Zionist enough for him to bother. I noticed some of his edits suggest that a Jewish homeland should be set up in Provence? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I need that on my talk page. I've always wanted to be "Rabbi Rabbit". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Dammit, I missed this too? I am deeply hurt :P I also liked how he was too lazy to type out the users' names. J.delanoygabsadds 14:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Wabbi Wabbit? Sounds wascally. --Shirahadasha (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Heh-heh-heh-heh. Oops, I was channeling Elmer Fudd for a second there. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I must thank for IZAK (talk · contribs) for his showing anybody how productive he is. I have started an article about Yishuv haYashan and every word was challenged agressively as to fit the Zionist idealogy. Everybody knows that the Yishuv haYashan rabbi's and leaders strongly opposed Zionism and even the Hovevei Zion from the begining, because of religious reasons explained in Wikipedia articles Anti-Zionism and Haredim and Zionism and even more. This is a fact that could be verified by the sourcesI posted, by Google or any research but not neccesary since everyone here knows about it. But the Zionist writers are trying for all costs to deny it. This could be verified from the fact that a Yishuv haYashan article didn't exist, and such a Portal or WikiProject doesn't exist even today. This shows biossy on the highest standart, and they may merge with the denyers of the Holocaust. I didn't respond to the practical jokes posted here on my account, but I will if I'll be forced to. HagiMalachi (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone is adding weird stuff to my talkpage......(can't word it properly)[edit]

Resolved: Misunderstanding, poster admonished to be careful with figures of speech, no admin action required. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Allemandtando, in response to an AfD that I responded to, has posted Two disturbing messages to my talkpage. While I was gonna shurg off the first response as shenanigans, his second response is completely out of the ballpark. I would like to respond with a "WTF?!" to his delusional thoughts, but his talkpage is abit....."oppressive." Plus I have no idea what that second message means. Can another Admin figure out what the hell is going on? (talk) 23:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

[45] - it was mentioned above - it's pretty much daily. --Allemandtando (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Then I demand you apologize for accusing me on my talk page for this, because I did not write that. Your obviously being trolled by other users that are finding fun in antagonizing you and maybe were monitoring your contributions page and found that juicy bit of info to egg you with. (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's just too late at night, but none of this makes any sense. Maybe someone could state in plain English what the issue is here. As far as the "are you still beating your wife?" maybe the IP address doesn't understand that that's an old joke, a "loaded" yes-or-no question. But its usage here is unclear. Maybe lay out the chronology so my feeble brain can understand. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
The really really short version - an AFD of mine is being attacked on the grounds that it's invalid for me to tackle the warhammer 40k area or delete any articles for AFD until I've cleaned up every other pop-culture we have here (this is part of a wider monitoring of my actions by the 4chan traditional gaming forum). Which is why I pointing out to (which is an account not an IP) that I'm it's not really on to ask an editor what amounts to an "do you still beat your wife?" question. That's the start and end of it. Thankfully all of the absolute ballache that the warhammer articles have caused me with IP editors seems to be worth it because now a group of other editors have become involved and hopefully clean-up can carry on without my presence. --Allemandtando (talk) 10:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Due to your comment - "that I'm it's not really on" - what does that mean? - I still don't get the point of the "beat your wife" part. However, their apparent argument - that other pop-culture exists elsewhere so you shouldn't touch theirs - has no validity. You can't possibly change every article at once; you have to start somewhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Asking "why don't you clean up area X first" is an example of a loaded question (the most common example of which is "do you still beat your wife") - which is the question that the IPs and were asking. Whatever my response, I can be accused of having a vendetta against that particular fictional area because the asker can then move onto "ah-ha, you MUST have a problem with fictional area X or you'd have started with fictional area Y". That's why it's a load question because it's pretty much unanswerable. that I'm it's not really on typo on my part should be "it's not really on to"... where I'm asking the editor to refrain from asking loaded questions. I hope that's cleared that up for you. --Allemandtando (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
My side: Allemandtando makes AfD, I find it, question his motives. He then adds the "Wife Beater" comment to my talk page. I just ignore it. Abit later, he then adds that mysterious "it was a loaded question" spiel, so now i'm freaking out if Allemandtando is trying to provoke me into something, or he's abit unstable. When he puts on the 4chan link here, I figure out that Allemandtando is accusing me of egging him and being one of the trolls that is egging him. Which i'm denying that I put up said message and I am unanimous in it. Or something like that. Still, i'm very disturbed that Allemandtando used "wife beater" as an example when other examples would've sufficed. And I demand an apology from him for using such a tasteless example from the start. A simple "Can we agree to Disagree?" would've (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As Allemandtando clearly and correctly states above, the "Are you still beating your wife?" question is simply the most notorious example of a loaded question. While it might seem offensive to someone who is unfamiliar with its history, its use is not at all unusual to illustrate a "fallacy of many questions". (I'm not saying your argument was such a fallacy, but that is what Allemandtando was trying to communicate.) Please don't take it literally, or personally. — Satori Son 13:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
While strongly echoing Satori Son's comments, I would also like to add a quick piece of advice for Allemandtando: Probably don't use that expression, because even though your meaning was completely valid and all of us can see that it clearly was not a personal attack of any sort, you might want to avoid the expression so that it won't be misinterpreted out of ignorance. For the same reasons, one should generally avoid using the word "niggardly"... --Jaysweet (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I didn't quite understand because I didn't see the "why don't you clean up X first" as being a "loaded" question, but more of a "go pick on someone else" question. All's swell. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Block of User Cali567[edit]

Since Cali567 started adding a very controversial genetical study on every argentine article in reference to demographics: (eg. Argentine American, Demographics of Argentina, etc) there has been several edit wars every day, that is why I requested the full protection of Demographics of Argentina. Though there was a consensus on Demographics of Argentina[46] she continues making her edits. User Jersey Devil and I told her that this kind of issues have to be solved on talk pages, still though she continues making her edits.

This user has been warned more than once, nevertheless I have given her the last warning for disruption. If she continues the disruption please block her. Regards, --Fercho85 (talk) 23:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I have some independent oversight here, please?[edit]

I seek to draw your attention to the following, Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight. This RFC was created under the following suspect circumstances and I would like to have some independent oversight of the process which has been used. I note the following anomalies:

  1. The RFC appears to have been created under the radar since it was never listed as a candidate RFC.
  2. The party creating the RFC actively and selectively solicited comments from those who would oppose me in this action.
  3. The RFC 48 hour timer has expired with only one signature certifying it, albeit not the one of the person that created it.
  4. The parties involved are now trying to re-add it to the candidate page.

Objective opinions on the process being followed here would be welcome. --GoRight (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

See resolved box. Sceptre (talk) 00:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the resolved tag because I also removed the Speedy tag. The simplest way to look at this RfC is that it is in the process of being created and that process hasn't been completed. Normally, a creator creates the page and signs it and logs it, and then the clock starts ticking. However, here, the creator disappeared after creating it (next day after), and may not have realized that he did not sign it. (Or realized that and intended to return and sign and log it.) Now, technically, there was a finished page when one user signed it. But that user may not have realized the effect of signing. There are a couple of possibilities: the user who did certify it could take that signature out, and then it is clearly a page in process of being created. Better, the user accepts responsibility for he page even though he did not create it, and his signature is then the first signature, and the clock would either start from that date of signature, or from the date when he realized that there was a problem that the creator did not sign. Which is the better approach depends on circumstances I do not know.

There is another factor which should be considered. The RfC clock should not begin until the RfC is listed; until then, the creators may consider it a work in progress, not yet ready to begin. In other words, this is not an RfC yet, it is a page being edited to become an RfC. Others may help with that, and at any time it could be listed, but I'd suggest that it not be listed by an adverse party, just in order to make the clock start. Let the creator(s) of an RfC decide when it begins.

Those who favor this RfC may have screwed it up by attempts to fix it. There is another approach possible as well. Let it be deleted, which is without prejudice, and refile with two certifications when all the ducks are in a row. I suggested to GoRight, though, that GoRight certify it, if it is true that attempts were made to resolve a dispute that were unsuccessful. Is that true? --Abd (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your help and good faith here. You of course miss the obvious point that the originator is NOT supposed to be canvassing for support during the creation process ... but rather only after the request has been approved, if then. At least that is the case by my reading of WP:RFC/USER. Regardless, if we intend to allow Raul to sign after the fact, then this RFC has met the required criteria for moving to "Approved". Please make it so. --GoRight (talk) 02:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Upper Colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program[edit]

76: semi protected for one month Keeper

I don't exactly know where to put this issue, but there are several Anonymous IP editors who have been making POV edits to the article. Every one of the IP addresses is from the same location in Colorado. I'm not an expert on IP addresses, but it appears that one editor is trying to retain a POV version. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Semi protected for one month (last protection was for 2 weeks; IP (s) went right back at it). No problem with anyone extending my protection duration. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 01:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Notification of injunction relating to Giano II[edit]

The Arbitration Committee, in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Geogre-William M. Connolley, has voted to implement a temporary injunction. It can be viewed on the case page by following this link. The injunction is as follows:

For the duration of this proceeding, Giano II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is not to be blocked, or unblocked, by any administrator, other than by consent of a member of the Arbitration Committee.

As noted in the text of the injunction, this restriction is in effect until the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Geogre-William M. Connolley case is officially closed by a clerk, following a successful motion to close by the arbitrators.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 01:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editor User:ChristianityMeansFreedom[edit]

Resolved: Blocked indefinitely

I just caught this editor changing the names of Christianity and anti-Semitism related articles, without any discussion at all (let alone consensus) - an act that to me verges on vandalism. I checked this user's edit history this year and saw that every edid s/he made was mmediately reverted. At least one edit [47] was obviously tendentious and provocative. It seems to me that this user exists only to violate WP:DIS and WP:POINT. I am inclined simply to block the user as a disruptive account ... but won't, at least not without consultation. I would appreciate other editors reviewing this editor's history of edits and suggesting what we should do. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 23:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This edit is also unacceptable. Using a comment like "unconverted" implies a qualitative difference between Christians and Jews. That's way outside of an encyclopedic article. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 23:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
And this edit seems out-and-out anti-Semitic. I just hesitate to block someone indefinitely unilaterally. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
He doesn't seem to be amenable to correction. Pretty much every one of his edits has been to promote his own POV; he's been warned repeatedly, and has not engaged in dialog (he just blanks his talk page). --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
User:Smith Jones left him a notice. I've left him an {{ANI-notice}}. If it matters --Rodhullandemu 00:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I have tired to assume AGF: with this user and i have given him a {{welcome}} templat on his page as well a a notice of this page here. maybe that will work and further sanctions willn't be neeaded. User:Smith Jones

Given that the username is disruptive and was reported to WP:UAA as such, I am blocking indef. Daniel Case (talk) 03:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Pianomanusa and User:Afusing[edit]

Ok, I may be in the wrong place, but with the circumstances I can see this being a bit ugly. First off, as I reported, Pianomanusa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam) was adding to a number of pages with a link to This site is very clearly a business site, charging for most of its content. All such links were reverted, and the user made only a few other edits. Now, just a bit ago, Afusing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam) added some serious allegations to the Sheet Music page - diff - which I reverted, and got quickly reverted myself, with a somewhat incivil edit summary ("BACK OFF" and such). While I'm positive Sheetmusic Archive would be against EL policies anyway, I'm more concerned that the user may go on stating unsourced accusations against the IMSLP, especially in light of that it seems that SMA is trying to restrict sharing of clearly PD content. Maybe I should work it out first...but in light of the previous spamming, and since I really don't wanna be blocked for 3RR, I figured I'd ask for some help before hand, as I imagine the two accounts are likely related. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it. I have problems with them "copyrighting" scans of public domain works -- doesn't Copyright law have some fairly specific things to say about exact reproductions?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanos Papalexis[edit]

This article is being WP:OWNed by User talk:Nemesisman and what I believe is his IP User talk: both WP:SPAs for all intents and purposes, the IP has only edited the article and the User has made a few other edits, but primarily on the article. They remove tags, revert other users edits and refuse to engage on the talk page or their own talk pages. The subject of the article is of questionable notability to begin with...if someone smarter than I am could take a look and see if they can sort out if there should be blocks, page protection, warnings, for them or a WP:Trout for me. LegoTech·(t)·(c) 03:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

(groan) Dispute getting nasty...[edit]

Could someone take a look at this, please? It took a turn for the worse when Arcayne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) gave me a personal attack warning for this, despite a clear desire of mine that he not interact with me in my userspace.

He then referred to me (a 19-month contributor) as a newbie. Please tell us both (me and him) to shut up, officially, on the page. Thanks. ╟─TreasuryTagcontribs─╢ 21:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

And another dispute (I'm not involved in this one) in which Arcayne suggested that another user "got a hard-on" from arguing. ╟─TreasuryTagcontribs─╢ 21:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
You already know the solution is for you two to leave each other alone, but you want to be told this? Err.. ok, leave each other alone. Friday (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Which he has been asked to do. Repeatedly. On other AN/I complaints where he was told the same thing. Maybe, at long last, TT can now heed that advice. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
TT, that whole dispute started getting nasty because you thought this would be a good idea. If you want Arcayne to not interact with you, I suggest you reciprocate. Neıl 00:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was a good idea because how else do you suggest I find the answer to those questions? They are quite reasonable, as it is. ╟─TreasuryTagcontribs─╢ 06:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
It's not possible to choose to not interact with Arcayne. His purpose here is to control and "win" for it's own sake, using whatever it takes. Arcayne is a loose cannon that should have his own permanent section in AN/I - He is perennially locked in some bullying dispute with any one of dozens of editors or administrators. He's also an aggressive kiss-ass and political networking gladhander. Someday perhaps people will begin to string together these many, many incidents and ask, "Can everybody be wrong?" No, they can't. Arcayne is a bully whose purpose here is to game the system for his own personal gratification at the expense of nearly every Wiki tenet of civility, intellectual honesty, manners and decorum. (talk) 02:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'll the anon, why don't you create a subheading here and explain what's your issue with Arcayne, including specifics. Vague insults about his personality aren't going to solve anything. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
An "aggressive kiss-ass and political networking gladhander"? Omg, is the anon actually talking about me? I think no one who has ever encountered me would pair those two descriptions with my personality, like, ever. Btw, the anon appears to have been a user we blocked back in April for gaming the system to bypass admin oversight. Does anyone need those prior AN/I's? Coz, I am going to be asking for the anon range to be blocked to keep out the attack pages as soon as I have the results of the RfCU, located here. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As you know, non-specific personal attacks from IP addresses always have a high degree of credibility. Though not in this universe. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Arcayne, just ignore the insults. That was my point precisely. Believe me, I see from the summary on my talk page here what to take when someone calls them "Unsupported claims of authority about a subject which are fraudulently offered" without any specifics. I see from such edit summaries like "If you are an OXFORD POLI Grad as you claim you should know better", I think it's time we have to consider range blocks to stop this nonsense. I'll add a note on the last user talk page so let's see. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I don't really take the insults that seriously. Really, I was amused at the choice of mischaracterization, as they have never really been applied to me. The user has tried this same sort of stuff at least three times before. I just don't want him cluttering up my page with his rants, and trying to poison wells elsewhere. Still waiting on RfCU to confirm the related status so I can properly request the range block. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 14:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I apologize - here are the specifics: "With respect, I went to Oxford, so i am fairly well aware of Brit English...penultimate being the climax of the story."[48]. Arcayne has made other claims to superior authority in the past, he has also argued forcefully over weeks with numerous editors that the EU is an NGO: "Are you seriously trying to suggest that the EU is not an NGO? ... If you consider me throwing my political science and international relations degrees at you to be derogatory, then I have to say that I am sorry you feel that way. I am not a potted plant; I know the policies of which I speak, ... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)" I hope the specifics help. (talk) 15:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Can we just block this IP range and dispense with the user? This is his fourth or fifth IP in two days, He is likely specifically restarting his modem to shift IPS. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Could somebody review the contribs for User:Avengercrunk[edit]

I believe this a single purpose account whose only intent is to promote the Tiny Rascal Gang, an article which has been deleted (by AFD, prod & CSD) 12 different times, but which this user continues to restore. They've even tried to change their name to Tiny Rascal Gang over at WP:CU. I don't have access to the deleted history at previous versions of Tiny Rascal Gang, but I can bet that the primary (or only) contributor was this user. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Oh, it appears this is a sockpuppet of User:Mormoncrunk, whose contribs are identical and who was blocked 3 days ago. Could somebody review this too and decide if this warrants an indef block? Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • In light of the rename, I may not agree with G4 instead of G11, but I definitely agree with the speedy delete. This looks to be a user with an agenda. I think the indef block(s) are in order. —C.Fred (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • This user is also probably a member or former member of the Tiny Rascal Gang (if such a gang exists), and has vandalized Brenda Paz, who was a member of MS-13, which Avengercrunk has identifed as being a "rival gang" to Tiny Rascal. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

POV problems with Falun Gong articles[edit]

I'm beginning to wondering if arbcom decisions are enforced at all, as according to the case on FLG: "It is expected that the articles will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and that information contained in them will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources." [49]. These are articles seemed to be abandoned by most editors except single purpose accounts bent on pushing their agendas. I've noted a RFC here [50], but so far has not received any replies from a third party. Is it possible to get admin intervention to check on the POV of these articles?--PCPP (talk) 08:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

One look at the comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reports of organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners in China (2nd nomination) shows the obvious problem.--PCPP (talk) 08:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Atlanta Braves and User:[edit]

The IP address in question has been engaged in a long-term edit war over a single issue, namely the status of the Atlanta Braves' consecutive division championships. Major League Baseball recognizes their streak as 14, not 11, because the strike-shortened 1994 season had no champions. The IP address wants it otherwise, and has tried various ways to push his personal agenda. He has been warned numerous times. He's also been blocked, and then unblocked on the condition that he discuss and compromise, but he won't. [51] Something needs to be done about this character's continual disruptive behavior. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User: Exanimous[edit]

Exanimous (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has threatened to edit war on (Talk:Pearl necklace (sexuality)) Pearl necklace (sexuality) by censoring an image with out an new consensus. Bidgee (talk) 08:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Have they filed an official declaration of edit war (document 32a)? -- Ned Scott 08:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
That is to say.. I wouldn't worry about it unless he actually does edit war. Sometimes people get worked up on the talk page. -- Ned Scott 08:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Well he censored it once, and has been reverted, Bidgee's revert is 100% per policy and if Exanimous continues to try and censor the article, I will warn them to stop edit warring against policy. MBisanz talk 08:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
A threat to edit-war is the first step to a quick exit. Maybe that editor ought to focus on trying to come up with a better illustration? That should keep him busy for awhile. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Exanimous has again removed the image (but still linked) from the article [52] Bidgee (talk) 03:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I have final warned the user here for continuing to censor the image with a Media:. Please note I am not endorsing the inclusion of the image in the article, merely enforcing the policy against censorship and the related policy against "spoiler" type messages. Also, responding to Neil's concern below, the image is a free image contributed by an editor, so there is no concern with its copyright status. MBisanz talk 07:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) While Exanimous should be warned off edit warring, I have sympathy for his/her point, if not his/her behaviour. While I don't profess to know the answers to the questions I'm about to ask, I'll posit them anyway. What is the role of consensus here? Is the image necessary? Does it add anything? Does it help us to understand the subject? Similarly, let's broaden this to include another example of a gratuitous and distasteful image here [53]. I remember a similar discussion a while ago about the first image at Human feces being a photo of the subject matter [54]. That image has gone now. So what was the difference between that case and this one? I'm not in favour of censorship, but I am in favour of people reading our articles, and if the first thing you see when you open a page is an image that turns most people's stomachs and likely sends them scurrying away from the article, how does that promote the encyclopedia? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 09:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

That's why it has to be discussed and consensus reached. Gratuitous and distasteful are in the eye of the beholder. I might find a picture of a warthog distasteful, but it's still there. Personally, I do think those photos are gratuitous, but not particularly offensive. I've seen a lot worse. This is the internet, not a garden party. Nor is wikipedia a crazy den of warthogs. Discussion is needed, not one user's unilateral censorship. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
That picture is poor, and unnecessary. Removing it isn't censorship, it's making an improvement to the article. We don't need badly clipped images from porn sites. The article itself is a dictionary definition. It should really be merged into one article along with Facial (sex act), Cum shot, and Bukkake, and treated in an encyclopedic manner, not "omg lol we can have boobs with jizz on them and if you remove them its censorship". Neıl 10:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not wiktionary. Some readers might not understand the concept. Your idea of merging them all into a single article is good. Multiple articles about essentially the same topic seems excessive. Meanwhile, the complaining editor needs to get busy on producing a better photo. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone take a high quality image and then release it to the PD - that would be great. thanks. --Allemandtando (talk) 10:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Where's David Shankbone now that we need him??? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)I agree with merging however I feel it would be best to get an consensus as even if the link to the image is there same may see removing the image from the article as censorship. That way we have something to fall on if an all out war starts over the issue. My opinion is that the image shouldn't be there for many reasons but I don't let my POV get in the way of editing here and I don't remove content or images without an consensus. Bidgee (talk) 10:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) To add to my above remarks and reply to later comments, preferring not to use an image to illustrate certain human practices in no way equates to censorship. Note that the article on rape, as a good example, does not seek to help readers who might not understand the concept by providing a graphic image of it. I'm entirely in agreement with Neil. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

To equate this harmless item with rape is far more offensive than the picture in question. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Bugs, I'll have to ask you to strike that comment out, I'm afraid. I was in absolutely no way "equating this harmless item with rape". Strike your remark out now please. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Alistair, calm down - please? Bugs, I don't think Alistair was comparing this article with rape - he was, I believe, making the point that we don't necessarily need an image on every article. Neıl 11:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Rape and Pearl necklace are two seperate issues. One Rape is Illegal and a graphic of anytype showing/illustrate wouldn't belong in the Rape or any Wiki article (Infact I think if anyone uploaded a photo of a rape would be charged by there own law inforcement in there own Country/State/Terriory) however Pearl necklace is legal (Unsure if it's banned any where in the World) there for showing/illustrating and image of the act isn't Illegal. Bidgee (talk) 11:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
You make the point well. I think the comparison of this with any other bodily fluid (as someone else suggested above) is fair. To lump it into the same sentence with an illegal act is unfair. No, I do not strike my comment, because I called it as I saw it, whether you intended it that way or not. Your explanation stands here also. Let the reader judge. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, I'll ask you for a second time, politely but firmly, to strike that comment. If it needs explanation (I don't think it does, but you never know), I was talking about whether the respective Wiki articles illustrate the practices, not equating the subjects. Now, strike out your remark. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

No. I called it as I saw it. I accept your explanation of what you thought you meant. I also stand by the way it read to me. And I wasn't the only one who saw it that way. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Outrageous accusation by Baseball bugs[edit]

Since you choose to up the ante, I'm going to insist on this. Your comment that "To equate this harmless item with rape is far more offensive than the picture in question" is a disgraceful slur on my character, and, to make matters worse, referring to "your explanation of what you thought you meant" seeks to portray me as somehow confused. I am not. I would never in my life seek to compare these two things. I was very obviously talking about whether Wikipedia articles choose to illustrate these two things. Now, I have asked you twice, and I will do so for a third time, strike that comment, as I will not stand for having such an outrageous accusation stand uncorrected on this page. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm commenting on your choice of words, not your character. I could likewise insist that you strike your comment that, to my eyes, equates rape with a harmless sexual act. Or, we could both take the admin's advice, and chill, bro. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
We don't have images of people being murdered either yet the article on Tomatoes quite happily shows images of the fruit. There is no need to equate this to any other article and the picture in question should simply be judged on its own merits. And I understand how one may take your comment to mean you are equating the two, that is how it sounded. But I really don't care, after all this is just the internet so relax. --The High Commander (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
If you had images of tomatoes being murdered, that would be different. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
AlasdairGreen, move along. Bugs was commenting on the comparison between rape and a pearl necklace, as one activity is illegal and the other is legal. Having photographs of someone being raped is entirely unacceptable, whereas having photographs of a pearl necklace is not due to the nature of the activities. seicer | talk | contribs 12:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
This started out as a friendly discussion and it turned ugly. Ya see what sex can lead to??? >:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
It's always a bad day for me. seicer | talk | contribs 13:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

To all of you, there is a yawning chasm between what I actually wrote and the scandalous way BB interpreted it, without I might add him even attempting the slightest good faith. Where is that supposedly sacred policy when you need it, eh? Well, since that idea is clearly out of the window, I can assume that either you have not bothered to read my remarks or you are too stupid to understand them. Whichever is the case, it's your problem, not mine. The last few hours have moved me diametrically across the spectrum from being an enthusiastic Wikipedian, with more than 20 new articles created, to a disillusioned, pissed one. Well done. So much for all the fine words about this being a community, collaborative project, assume good faith bla bla bla. And since I do not foresee myself wishing to edit anything in the near future, you may block me for these remarks with my consent. I really do not give a fuck. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Never give up. Never give in. Do you have any idea how many times I got fed up enough to quit this site? (I actually did, once.) I stick with it because I like to write about facts, and this website serves as a good outlet. Focus on the good stuff. If an editor annoys you, leave it be, if possible. Or make fun of it. That's much better for the constitution. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Alasdair, I asked you to calm down, as did Seicer. It was a minor misunderstanding, and you've worked yourself up over it. Nobody's going to block you, just take a break, get a bit of perspective; it's really not that big a deal. Bugs, the only reply I want from you is none at all - go and do something else, too. Neıl 15:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

One of the disruptive things that some disruptive editors do is to provoke other editors into becoming angry, and then derive satisfaction as the angry editor immolates himself. There is no easy way to discriminate this from simply being straightforward with no disruptive intent, beyond seeing a pattern over many incidents. I will point out one thing, here: AlasdairGreen27 overreacted, yes, but ... that part of this incident report could have been resolved easily by Baseball Bugs making a small apology, the kind that people routinely make when they offend someone without intending to. It wasn't resolved that way, and it is not impossible that we lost an editor over this. (To be fair, Bugs made a minimal recognition that Alasdair meant his comment differently, but then went on to justify his own remark as "the way he saw it." Let me translate that into how it works: "I did nothing wrong, and that you are offended is your problem. I would do it again.") This kind of response is almost guaranteed to enrage an ordinary person in an ordinary context. Here on AN/I, we tend to be used to this, Bug's remark was mild compared to much we see. With this comment, I'm simply noting what happened. Bugs debates with editor, editor sputters as if a fuse is burning. Bugs continues to interact with editor, editor explodes. Then, Bugs rubs salt in the wound by giving editor advice about having fun. Isn't that what they sometimes say to women about what to do if raped?--Abd (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)struck comment at Neil's suggestion --Abd (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Please dont compare something liek this to being raped. Baiting editors in wikipedia s something that happens too often in my view,s i agree with you on that but to compare what Bugs did to rape is proposterose. Smith Jones (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Very proposterose. Abd, suggest you strike or remove that last sentence (let's see what happens). Neıl 08:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again.The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:MEAT and WP:SOCK on Marburg72 RfC[edit]

The following is with regards to the RfC on Marburg 72 located here:

It is filed by Trochos, Who has taken to recruiting friends to "endorse" the complaints. This seems to be in direct conflict with the policy:

Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, then the appropriate action is to avoid personal attacks, seek comments and involvement from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another.

Wikipedia has policies and processes to mitigate the disruption caused by meatpuppetry:

1. Consensus in many debates and discussions is not based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors. Newcomers are unlikely to understand Wikipedia policies and practices , or to introduce any evidence that other users have not already mentioned .
2. In votes or vote-like discussions, new users tend to be disregarded or given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them expressing the same opinion.
3. For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has ruled that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity. Marburg72 (talk) 03:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is the evidence that Trochos is acting in violation to the applicable policy: Trochos asked Ronz on Ronz talk page to endorse this claim, as follows: Ronz, I've just put in an "Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute" summary, and your name keeps cropping up. Would you like ::to sign in the "Users certifying the basis for this dispute" section? David Trochos (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See the following for this extensive recruitment evidence:

Here Ronz stated that his involvement with this was upon a request for "Help" . Marburg72 (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ronz later reverted this statement, and said that it was from the Fringe accusations page located here: Marburg72 (talk) 03:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Further indirect evidence of recruitment on behalf of the other involved party that is verifying this complaint by the name of DougWeller-

Leoboudv (talk) page shows that this user is friends with Weller and Trochos has had a long history of prior discussions with him, this is again in direct conflict with MEAT PUPPET policy.
In addition, Shot Info, the other user that has "endorsed" the claim quickly, has a long history of discussions with Ronz. Marburg72 (talk) 03:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Continued meat puppetry and recruiting on behalf of Doug : —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marburg72 (talkcontribs) 12:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has ruled that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.

Please review the standard for WP:SOCK and WP:MEAT. I do not feel that this recruitment to verify Trochos and Wellers claims against me are abiding by Wikipedia policy.Marburg72 (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

  • How interesting Marburg72. I post a single message noting your removal of a book by a reliable source the University of Illinois at [55] and specifically here and you quickly accuse me of all being a meat/sockpuppet. Of course, you don't mention your behaviour at all in deleting the University of Illinois book reference. Removal of reliable sources can constitute a form of vandalism. Just because you have a point of view doesn't mean you can remove sourced references that may conflict with your viewpoint. Without reliable sources, Wikipedia's credibility is called into question. I am certainly no one's puppet. I checked your edits before I made my statement. I saw these edits by you in which you implicitly accused two well respected scholars, Fowler and Young, of bias and racism toward native Indians regarding the Cahokia mounds [56] and [57] but I ignored it. I mention it now for an Admin to inspect. For full disclosure, I have made zero edits to the Cahokia mounds article and am no one's puppet on this subject. But I dislike being attacked for being called someone's puppet. As an Aside, Marburg72's behaviour towards others is simply abhorrent. Regards, Leoboudv (talk) 04:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
If you were at all familiar with the topic or discussion, it would be clear to you that the source on Mound 72 by Fowler states nothing of this speculative theory.Marburg72 (talk) 12:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a similar complaint, although of sockpuppetry only, at [58]. I've said that that I can't understand why he would accuse me of being a sockpuppet. He has, for instance, twice mentioned by personal website. I think a better understanding of policy and guidelines by Marburg72 might have avoided all these problems Doug Weller (talk) 07:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Doug has also attempted to recruit here: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marburg72 (talkcontribs) 12:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Doug has continued adding personal attacks to the Monk's Moiund page here: Marburg72 (talk) 12:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've just looked at 'Trochos's' edits mentioned above, and he seems to be contacted editors who have been involved with Marburg72 and says "f you would like to add any comments, under the headings "Other users who endorse this summary", or "Outside view" or in the "Users who endorse this summary:" at the end of Marburg72's "Response" section, please do so". Isn't it reasonable to invite editors with some experience of the editor in question to comment? And, just as Marburg72 seems to be watching other people's contributions, other people are probably watching mine or those of Trochos, so there should be no surprise if some of them decide to take a look at the RfC. Doug Weller (talk) 07:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm leaving this and the sock-puppetry complaint to the judgement of the admins. David Trochos (talk) 07:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
    • If anyone does notice Marburg72's accusation of 'continued meatpuppetry and recruiting', this refers to my actions after I discovered he had deleted text he didn't like from an article's talk page [59] and I asked a completely uninvolved Admin to step in. He ignored the Admin's warnings, kept deleting (4 times in all) after being warned that he would be blocked. Doug Weller (talk) 13:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Two IP's making hard to spot and long term vandalism[edit]

Resolved: Not vandalism - provided policy link and explanation. Papa November (talk) 10:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC) and are vandalizing the Pan-African article, and others, with subtle and repeated edits very hard to fix. I think we have to check carefully all their edits, because I found old vandalism that wasn't fixed. --PeterCantropus (talk) 09:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Please could you provide some WP:DIFFs to demonstrate the alleged abuse? Also, as a non-administrator, you shouldn't be using block tags as you did here and here. Papa November (talk) 09:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I've taken a look at the edits you reverted, and this looks more like a content dispute. There's no obvious vandalism there. Papa November (talk) 09:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't know I couldn't use block tags. I found it suspicious that an anon IP was rewriting large portions of the article, without adding sources. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm quite new here. --PeterCantropus (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Unregistered users are entitled to contribute, just as registered users are. You may want to put a {{fact}} tag after any controversial comments, but these edits don't really appear to be vandalism. You can read WP:VAND#NOT for a list of things that aren't vandalism, and how to deal with them.
Only admins can block people - the block templates only display a message (they don't actually block the user). so placing a "you have been blocked" message on a talk page will only serve to confuse them, if they are still actually able to edit!
I'll mark this as resolved here, but send me a message if you need further help/explanations. Papa November (talk) 10:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit war at Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks[edit]

Could we please get some uninvolved admin help at Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). With it being the holiday here in the US, I believe an editor with a significant CoI is trying to take advantage of the timing to perform a purge clothed as a merge. The talk page has all the gritty details. Thanks. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Protected for two days to force discussion. A bad day to do something so contentious. Neıl 13:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Block evasion by blocked sock-puppetier[edit]

It is highly probable that User:Jacurek is revert warring and evading his 4 month block for socking, block evasion and disruption [60] as IP at History of Jews in Poland[61]. Besides the same pattern of editing, most convincing evidence that IP and Jacurek is the same editor is here: Jacurek forgets to sign his post at talk page [62], IP comes to sign it minutes later [63], and vice versa edit by IP[64] signed minutes later by Jacurek [65]. Also checkuser is highly desired on IP, which comes from the same geographical area as IP, and shows the signs of Jacurek's editing pattern. M0RD00R (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Abuse of adminship by User:Cryptic; requesting recall of his adminship[edit]

Unresolved: User:Cryptic hasn't responded here and appears to have been totally inactive since June 25. --Thinboy00 @770, i.e. 17:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I politely requested he userfy an article and he responded by calling me a "spoiled child," which if not a personal attack is at least downright incivil as a response to a polite request which is why I gave him a warning. He responded by blocking me for "trolling" without any warning, without acknowledging that maybe his reply to a polite request was a bit unfriendly, and without even explaining on my talk page. Obviously, since I am commenting here, this block has been overturned after disapproval by multiple others (see [66], [67], and [68]). Again, blocking without warning, let alone responding to a polite request in such a disrespectful fashion, is totally unacceptable for an admin. Moreover, claiming he did it to prove a "point" seems a violation of WP:POINT. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 01:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems like the block was punitive and ill-advised. Still, no wheel warring after it's release. though I am not an administrator, I'm not sure as to what can be done about it now. Wisdom89 (T / C) 01:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe User:Cryptic is a member of the group of administrators open to recall. I would suggest a RfC/Admin Conduct, and provide further information. The block was bad, and response not much better, I agree, but you'll need more then 1 bad incident to be taken seriously if you're going to put in a request to recall/desysop him. SirFozzie (talk) 02:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The accusation of trolling probably stemmed from the fact that you gave an tenured admnistrator a "welcome to Wikipedia" warning, which probably was viewed as a deliberate slight. Although, I presume it was just an oversight. Wisdom89 (T / C) 02:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
We have tenure? Awesome! SWATJester Son of the Defender 02:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh, not in that sense. Wisdom89 (T / C) 02:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
When someone is tenured, they're hard to get rid of. Some folks resort to assassination, but that gets messy and can cause legal trouble. My usual approach is to ring their doorbell and run away. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I don't really warn editors that much and so when I went to the warning template page looking for an appropriate warning, I wanted to go with the lowest level one I could find and so just went with that template. In any event, AfDs and DRVs, as far as I am aware, are supposed to be discussions, not votes, i.e. discussions in which we engage and interact with each other. How does he respond to a discussion? Well, instead of say commenting on the topic under discussion, he comments on me instead. Now, it's not just with me. Notice this edit summary, which seems to be something of an assumption of bad faith. See also: confrontional comment, losing cool, unconstructive edit summary, etc., and from a quick look, it seems with ease I can find more if necessary, i.e. a rather unhelpful and unfriendly manner of dealing with others, which is totally unbecoming of an admin. Plus, looking at his own block log, the self blocks of thinking "MSK's unblock shows the system's still broke" and "clearly too stressed still to be around people yet" are also somewhat wikidramatic and seem a bit of a concern for an admin. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Hasn't Arbcom already set precedent in this sort of matter? [69]--Cube lurker (talk) 02:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
While an Arbcom decision is indicative of what Arbcom may do in the next similar situation, their decisions are non-binding, and do not set precedents. --Badger Drink (talk) 23:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

If we start approaching this as tenure, then really RfA is just an opportunity for a tenure-track position, with, say, quarterly or bi-annual reviews. At the end of six-twelve months the review board (bureaucrats) can decide whether you become tenured; if so, you are no longer open to recall. Mackensen (talk) 02:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

This bock and subsequent discussion here seems to go along with this one. Just pointing it out. Wizardman 02:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The thing is that regardless of what happens here, I now have a block on my log that I should not have, which is why for preventative purposes so that he does not abuse the tools again, I suggest one or more of the following as possible solutions: 1) some kind of similar length short block of his account; 2) loss of adminship; and/or 3) an apology. Now as far as how I approach AfDs and DRVS, I set up a while ago a table at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions with the hope of receiving constructive suggestions at User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions. Insults like this are not going to convince anybody of anything. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
(keeping this short to avoid an EC, although I'm not an admin and have little standing to comment) The last time LGRdC was creating massive drama in this forum was Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive424#Months of harassment from RobJ1981, where he claimed that he was so ill (kaff … kaff) that he would have to take a wikibreak, and all he wanted before he left was for another user to be blocked. Well, the other user was blocked, and, mirabile dictu, LGRdC came back a couple of days later as well as could be. Is there no one who can see this person for the lawyering, passive-aggressive, disruptive user that he is? Deor (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
You really are going to mock someone for when they were sick?! Seriously?! As far as disruptive, maybe you should re-look at your own incivil personal attacks: [70] and [71]. Which is odd, given my multiple attempts to be nice and cooperative with you: [72], [73], etc. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC) --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
'Waah, an admin has reminded me that I'm being a dick; quick, kick him out!' HalfShadow 02:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
HalfShadow, retract that personal attack, please. Deor, this is rather bizarre behavior from the two of you.. what gives? SirFozzie (talk) 02:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but arbcom has clearly stated that blocks are not to be used in disputes, much less to "remind someone they're a 'dick'"--Cube lurker (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, too, but I'm not going to retract anything. Giving an admin a welcome template as a response to a failure to userfy an article is just not in the cards. Block me too, if you want; the spectacle of sysops falling all over themselves to accommodate the Pumpkin's every wish is just more than I can stand. Deor (talk) 03:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
And, for the record, I deny that either of the diffs that Pumpkin linked to above constitute "incivil personal attacks". This is my last contribution to this thread. Deor (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
No, I gave him a warning for making a personal attack. I am not asking admins to "fall all over themselves to accomodate me", but to prevent future bad blocks. I'm not looking for revenge or something, just reassurance that such things won't happen in the future. Jumping into this discussion just like you did at the one you linked to previously does not help. And as I've said, it is really disappointing that you continue to be mean to my even though I have tried to be nice to you. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
For the record, how is this being a "dick"? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
For the record: he told you 'no', then, when he expanded on that because you didn't like the terminology he used, you first templated him and now you're suggesting he be de-sysopped. Admins do all the work around here and I'm tired of seeing them be dumped on because your feelings have been hurt. HalfShadow 03:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
After he said, "no," I politely explained my request. Did it really justify this response? As for the allegation against me, I respectfully asked the deleting admin about the closure and he suggested I go to DVR, which I did. Trying to talk to admins politely should not receive such a harsh response. And it's not about my "feelings," but a concern of this kind of thing happening again to anyone, not just me. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
If that's to me that's why I added the single 'quotes'--Cube lurker (talk) 03:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of LGRdC's present and past behavior, Cryptic should not have blocked him himself simply for templating him, even if that's not exactly the friendliest thing to be doing. If LGRdC is behaving unacceptably, I'd suggest a user RFC or other steps in dispute resolution. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 02:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I up a while ago a table at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions with the hope of receiving constructive suggestions at User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Morven here (shock). Y'all got into a spat and Cryptic made a bad block. It's not a blockable offense to template the regulars but it's an act of shocking tactlessness that leaves me feeling rather unsympathetic. Mackensen (talk) 03:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
It may not be the nicest thing to "template a regular" but that's one of the worst blocks I've seen in quite some time. Cryptic needs to offer a full explanation. - auburnpilot talk 03:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems pretty self-evident, doesn't it? By explanation, do you actually mean apology? Because you're can't compel one of those. Mackensen (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
As I said above, I don't really warn people and just went with what seemed the tamest one on the warnings page after he made this edit. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
That's no kind of an answer--you've been here a few years and appear to have a grasp of the language. Mackensen (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, with regards to warnings for comments like that would you suggest I do? Is it appropriate to give some kind of warning and if so what? Yes, I have been here for a while, but there is a good deal I haven't worked on or really think I know a lot about. Warnings are one area that I haven't really worked on; plus, I did not check his contrib history to see how long he's been around. So, I know for the future, what would be the way to go when someone calls you a "spoiled child"? Thanks. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
You say, "Hey, please don't engage in personal attacks." or "That was uncalled for, I'll ask a different admin." I think that is what is meant by not using templates and you having command of the language ;-) Avruch 03:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Is it ever okay to warn admins? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Being an admin doesn't really play into it - its generally considered impolite to template anyone but a newbie, there is a page about it at WP:DTTR. Avruch 03:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but that's kind of funny. Try to ues an essay in an afd and you get berated for it because it has no weight. Violate another in user space you get blocked.--Cube lurker (talk) 03:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
While the block was uncalled for and definitely not appropriate, LGRdC's actions aren't exactly perfect either. I think emotions were high on both sides, and frankly, LGRdC, despite the civility he conducts his discussions with, often irritates or aggravates users with his rationales. In this light, I could see Cryptic taking a templated message (to an administrator, really? That's really tactless) as trolling. This naturally does not excuse his conduct, and he should have been cool-headed despite the situation, but this is probably the situation he felt he was getting into. That said, going back to the original intent of the thread, you're not going to get him dysopped for this. Nowadays, the requirement for revoking adminship is more or less massive OMG drama that ends up at ArbCom, which this definitely is not. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 03:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Sephiroth, as I said above, I saw a personal attack or incivil comment and thought the correct response was to post some kind of warning message. While I do welcome a lot of editors, I really don't warn them unless it's the anon vandal warning template when I revert first time vandalism. If you look at the discussion that brought us here, I made a really polite request and responded to his initial response in a still respecftul manner. If admins look at the contribution history of the article in question, you'll see that it was one that I was indeed in the process of make serious revisions to. As for revoking adminship, it was just one of a few ideas presented above as a possible preventitive measure. In any event, the weather sirens are going off here as we have a tornado warning. So, with that, I guess good bye for now. And again, anyone is invited to my deletion talk page indicated above to offer constructive criticisms and advice. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Regardless, your response to an uncivil comment was a templated message, which again, is really tactless, and users can take it the wrong way. If someone gives an actual response (regardless of the civility), and you respond with a template, then it's basically like a slap in the face. You're implying (not that I'm saying you were implying this, which you weren't; however, this is how it's taken most of the time) that you don't want to waste time to write an actual message and you're simply falling back to templated messages to end the conversation. Again, I'm not saying your intent was wrong or that the block was justified (quite the contrary); however, you have to admit that it was a rather tactless act, especially for a user such as yourself that has been here for so long and should be familiar with such things. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 09:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, and I appreciate your comments, but I really have not done much in the way of warning users other than with the anon-vandal welcome (in my over 20,000 edits, there's maybe a handful and none that I can easily find at present) and I was honestly stunned by his reaction as usually when I ask someone if they would userfy something, they respond in a friendly and helpful manner. As another example of a positive such discussion, please see User talk:Sandstein#Deletion of pizza delivery in popular such and such where I accepted a compromise. So, you can imagine why I for one might be taken aback by Cryptic's reaction to my request, but again, I did not add the warning template into the discussion until after he called me a "spoiled child," which I believed merited some kind of civility warning and I thought I was going with the lowest level and tamest one on the page. Also, before giving him the warning, I did not check his edit history to see how long he's been around. In any event, it really is not that hard to interact in these kinds of discussions in a civil and respectful fashion and as you can see in these examples, I asked, I did not demand and in the latter, I accepted a compromise. Plus, it is frustrating that someone would react in such a manner, because as you know, sure I may disagree quite strongly with editors in discussions, but even though say you and I have had some strong disagreements in AfDs and DRVs, I still occasionally look for somewhere where I might be able to help you or get along a la User talk:Sephiroth BCR#Vandalism to your userpage so that it is clear any discussion disagreements are not personal or anything. I have done such things for a number of editors I have disagreed with. I guess it would be nice if some of those with whom I disagree would also take these kinds of proactive steps. I appreciate that you responded nicely in the aforementioned case: User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles#Re:Vandalism. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, dropping a few words as someone who's worked with Roi a long time (both antagonistically and cooperatively--check his block log). As far as I can tell, Roi rarely does the template thing and probably wasn't aware that templating an established editor is considered rude. A word to the wise is sufficient: sysop or not, when someone's been around a while the custom is to open a dialog. Would someone consider doing a one second block to notate his block log, if he's amenable? It wasn't a blockable action, and one bad block almost never leads to recall (almost--check my ops history). The bottom line here for those who don't know him is that Roi is an inclusionist; a scrupulously polite editor who didn't used to play by the rules but learned his lesson and who expects those who have different wikiphilosophies from his to play by the rules too. DurovaCharge! 03:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

  • As an admin, given the community's trust, doesn't cryptic need to address this, he knows this thread is here. [74]--Cube lurker (talk) 03:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
  • [did it myself - nvm! Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)]
  • Cryptic should accept an appropriate punishment and in future try not to perform privileged tasks which might be perceived as emotive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
    • The thing that really had me here is that usually when I ask someone if they would userfy something, they respond in a friendly and helpful manner. As another example of a positive such discussion, please see User talk:Sandstein#Deletion of pizza delivery in popular such and such where I accepted a compromise. So, you can imagine why I for one might be taken aback by Cryptic's reaction to my request, but again, I didn't add the warning template into the discussion until after he called me a "spoiled child." In other words, it really isn't that hard to interact in these kinds of discussions in a civil and respectful fashion and as you can see in these examples, I asked, I didn't demand and in the latter, I accepted a compromise. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 05:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Cryptic responded very rudely to a very reasonable request (and I think someone else should see to it that the deleted article gets userfied for him); templating him for that was a misstep, but a minor one. For Cryptic to then block Roi was a huge misstep, however, and calls into question his suitability for adminship. Everyking (talk) 05:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Wizardman has userfied it for me. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 05:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Repeated rudeness and a retaliatory block is troubling, I agree. Let's hope it was just a one-off by someone who was having a bad day. If it becomes a pattern, the thing to do would be to open an admin conduct RFC. DurovaCharge! 06:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, we can condemn his action all we want, but this is really too far. We all agreed it was a bad action, end it at that. If it does it again, file an RfC on his conduct. If it continues past that, go to ArbCom. Trying stuff like that isn't constructive and really, is just plain rude. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 09:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Bstone hectoring Cryptic like that does not help anyone, particularly Bstone. Neıl 10:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Why should there be something wrong with asking someone to resign their adminship? Everyking (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not what he said, it's how he said it. Neıl 10:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
If Cryptic was open to recall, that would be reasonable. Cryptic isn't in the category, so probably doesn't consider himself open to recall. It is a poorly worded request; it starts from the invalid assumption that Bstone has a right to make the request. GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I am unaware of any policy saying that editors cannot ask an admin to resign. DuncanHill (talk) 15:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I politely, formally and civilly asked Cryptic to resign his admin position. I did not attack him, make over the top accusations or use any manner of hyperbole. It was a simple, formal request. He is free to ignore it. However, GRBerry, I am looking for a policy which might be titled "Non-admins are forbidden from asking admins to return their position", but I cannot find it. Can you point me to it? If it exist I shall offer a full retraction and formal apology to Cryptic. Bstone (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Bstone, going around politely, formally, and civilly asking admins to resign their bit, (or asking editors to leave the project, for another example) is neither constructive nor helpful, policy or no policy. Where I agree with you is that it's allowed. Policy doesn't prohibit you from being civilly rude. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the "every admin gets one free" attitude so prevalent around here. I'm all for forgiveness and understand that we all make mistakes every once in awhile, but Cryptic has not yet been an acknowledged that what he did was out of line. Of course, we can never force someone to apologize, but we sure can take away his admin tools if he doesn't address this issue before when he starts blocking again. HiDrNick! 12:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

1) Contributors are humans with lives; Cryptic has not contributed for several hours now. 2) One of the early steps in dispute resolution is disengaging; before heading off (to bed?) he acknowledged the thread, and appears to be intentionally choosing not to participate in it. This is reasonable. GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with point 1 totally, and did not intend to give the impression that I'm advocating swift action. I just think that this issue should be considered unresolved until it is addressed by Cryptic in due course. Editors above are saying, for example, "we all agreed it was a bad action, end it at that." It should not end at that. As a community, we should be unwilling to "agree to disagree" with Cryptic's implicit position that block was justified. I think most reasonable people would be content to let it drop if and only if Cryptic acknowledges that it was in fact a bad block, but this feeling that "it was a bad block, he's unblocked now, get over it" is unsatisfactory. If Cryptic refuses to acknowledge that the block was flawed and should not have been made, it should be addressed by the Arbitration Committee, and ultimately a steward. HiDrNick! 16:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I doubt any admin goes around with a smile and a get-out-of-one-bad-block-free card wondering when to play it. Sysops get pulled in six different directions at once. Administrators get headaches, catch the flu, stay up until the wee hours trying to get stuff accomplished on Wikipedia. On the right side a chorus yells don't you edit articles anymore? while each time the sysop starts a GA drive other people tug at the left sleeve. Admins are expected to have the wisdom of Solomon when dinner is about to burn in the kitchen. Slicing the Gordian knot isn't enough; admins are expected to remove it surgically. And in return for this unpaid labor, they sometimes get compensated in curses or worse. After a while--being human--chances are an admin will flub something once. If it becomes a pattern, yes, the community addresses it. But flubbing something once is called being human. DurovaCharge! 10:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You know, I really wish that Badlydrawnjeff was still active. He'd be a good advisor to Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles. They share a philosophy, but jeff was a lot better at communicating and working with those who disagreed with him. GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to bring up a completely separate issue involving Cryptic that I feel is quite similar to the one being presented here, but shows pattern. I've been trying to get an explanation from Cryptic for almost two months now as to why they had placed a block on my account for a couple of days without any discussion, notice, or warning. Since then, I've asked several times for them to bring clarity to the issue, but have received little to no feedback from Cryptic. I've hunted for quotes to policies and have even brought up examples of other users with the same "violation" Cryptic very briefly claimed I made, but have gotten absolutely no response. To me, this, along with the new incident, shows a solid history of poor communication and abuse of admin tools by Cryptic. I would like to see these issues with Cryptic escalated as well. What can be done? Roguegeek (talk) 15:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

See what Durova said: "If it becomes a pattern, the thing to do would be to open an admin conduct RFC." Carcharoth (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. The block wasn't a particularly defensible thing in this instance, although it could be argued that the templated warning, while understandable, wouldn't likely win friends. I think the trout might be the best option here for this single instance, but, if it were found to continue in the future, an RfC would be reasonable. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
What you're addressing here, John, is a report of a second instance (unrelated to Le Grand Roi's template warning and block). Avruch 18:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Ouch. I stand corrected. The comment by Roguegeek could stand a lot of better information as to what the specifics of the matter being discussed are. However, even taking that second instance into account, we still have only two instances. For the step being requested here, that might be a bit extreme. Although ArbCom would definitely be an option here, and I don't want to speak for them, I would think two could still be marginally acceptable, although some sort of formal notification of his conduct being specifically called into question would be reasonable as well. If a third instance were to arise, particularly after specific warnings regarding such conduct are made, then there would be much less question or defense of such action. John Carter (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
At a quick glance, the Roguegeek block is related to several pages like this being deleted numerous times and Roguegeek re-creating them each time. But Roguegeek's talk page history shows a distinct lack of activity around the date of the block, May 3, 2008. Some discussion is here but I see no hint of pre-block warning. Roguegeek's deleted contribs (admin only) show re-creation edit summaries of "why are my own templates being deleted?" which are a little sad. Unless I'm missing something, I'm not real fond of how that went down. User templates deleted, the user not understanding why and re-creating, twice, three times, four times, still no discussion - and then block. No deletion explanation (until after the fact), no block warning, not even a note to say that the user was blocked! Peculiar at best. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, all I'm looking for is understanding and have gotten zero help from the user in question. And yes, I was upset about the block with no discussion what so ever. I just happen to stumble upon this conversation and thought to myself, "hey I have a similar experience." I'm still actually needing some advice that I'll take to a different discussion page. I just thought it'd be helpful in this specific discussion to show a little more history from a complete separate instance. Thoughts? Roguegeek (talk) 20:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Admins are here to serve our editors and readers, not vice versa. One inappropriate block (Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles) is bad, two (Roguegeek) is unacceptable and then stonewalling Roguegeek's requests for an explanation takes it all over the top; I'm losing confidence in Cryptic's suitability to be an administrator. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 20:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I see now that Cryptic did respond to Roguegeek although I still consider the block to be very out of line. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 21:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I have a vague memory that there was some central discussion about deleting such "voting" templates, but I may be wrong there. That's beside the point, though. Cryptic absolutely should have communicated with Roguegeek about all this. Unless Cryptic can point out where this was discussed, why he blocked, and why there was no follow up, then there is a problem here. Admins have to be approachable, otherwise the whole system breaks down. Carcharoth (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)