Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive532

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jorge Ferreira (Portuguese singer)[edit]

Resolved: all deleted and user warned --Chris 03:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

After closing this as delete (and deleting several hundred pages), Robotixi (talk · contribs) re-created everything. Could somebody take a look? Thanks, –Juliancolton | Talk 03:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Re-deleting per G4. Nakon 03:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Seems like User:Chris G beat me to it Nakon 03:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


Honestly, the new CU process vexes me for legacy cases. If anyone can take a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shuppiluliuma for me, since it seems to have stalled instantly for lack of informed admins, I would greatly appreciate it as regards User:Shiham K and all underlying IPs. Hiberniantears (talk) 04:26, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

For further background see the post to WT:SPI at Wikipedia_talk:Sockpuppet_investigations#Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Shuppiluliuma
The problem here is simply that the reporter of the case has gotten a tad confused on what to do to create a case. I have provided the reporter instructions on WT:SPI such that they simply need to click a link and fill in the details. (The new process is similar to RFCU, nothing new to reporters) As he has stated on WT:SPI this case is old and the checkusers that did the case before are not around anymore.
If possible further comments/issues can be dealt with at WT:SPI rather then here to avoid having multiple discussions on the same issue. —— nixeagleemail me 05:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Personal attack by IP[edit]

Resolved: blocked IP Dreadstar 06:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

An IP has been disruptive by not providing sources for his claim that Vancouver does not belong in the Pacific Northwest. Several users have been reverting his edits and recently made a personal attack on me on my talk page. See here.  єmarsee Speak up! 04:55, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

This user has also been quacking although the username was blocked due to it's inappropriate nature.  єmarsee Speak up! 05:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

IP blocked for 7 days. Dreadstar 06:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Bulbasaur the pokemon, suspicious behavior[edit]

This account is a new user, however, I have several questions for the community below:

Thank you for your time, in answering these questions.— dαlus Contribs 06:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Appears to be related to blocked user User:Toothy7465, blocked indef. Nakon 06:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I was about to say that they may have also exercised WP:RTV and come back, but socks are socks...(talk→ BWilkins ←track) 06:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Jokestress re homosexual transsexual etc.[edit]

Resolved: No admin action is needed and Hfarmer has chosen to go to ArbCom. AniMatetalk 07:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I have worked with as best I can user:Jokestress. I have done so inspite of her attacking me off wiki. Though sore over it I have mostly let it slide. I feel that Jokestress may have, in the case of the article Homosexual transsexual crossed some sort of threshold. She made this edit [1]. I then taking her at her word and acting in good faith made this edit to the talk page [2] and this edit to the article [3]. Then I made this edit to the talk page where I'll admit to calling Jokestress out on her repeated incivilities to me over this sort of thing.[4] Another user who did a bit of digging user:WhatamIdoing found this more complete quote of the source [5], which shows jokestress left out an important piece of information. Specifically the term homosexual transsexual, wich from the website I linked where she attacks me you can tell she really does not like, was at least for a time in the DSM-III-R. What does this look like to you all.

What can be done about someone who admits to having WP:COI and thus does not edit the article voluntarily, yet tries to pressure and influence those who don't have a COI into writing what they want? Stooping even to a blantant slective quoting, and omission of important matterial? There has to be some recourse. Right?--Hfarmer (talk) 00:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

My outside view: Apparently Jokestress called Hfarmer a "fake" transsexual on a non-Wikipedia site, and Hfarmer doesn't like that. I have no idea at all if this is true or not, and I don't care. Jokestress's claims about Hfarmer did not reference Wikipedia, and so far as I can see they have nothing to do with this site at all.
It's clear that Hfarmer holds a grudge against Jokestress, but he seems to have attempted to be (barely) civil nonetheless. Again, this shouldn't have anything to do with Wikipedia.
It looks to me like Jokestress gave a lengthy quote about the term "Homosexual transsexual" on the article's talk page, and Hfarmer used that information to update the article. Another user found a different quote from the same source which Hfarmer believes lessens the impact of the original quote (although that's debatable). I don't see any manipulative or dishonest "selective quoting" by Jokestress. Nor do I see her pressuring anyone to write anything specific.
In short, I don't see any reason Jokestress should be reprimanded for off-Wiki comments that don't refer to Wikipedia, or for quoting from a source on a talkpage. I'd simply advise all editors to stay cool and try not to take things personally. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 00:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
It's not a different quote from the same article. Look closer. She actually omitted from the source a bit of information that did not suit her. As for calling me a fake, you can look at my youtube cite and see how not fake I am if you care. [6] Look at the citation from WhatmaIdoing and look at what Jokestress did, then go to that talk page and look at the link whatamIdoing gave... What jokestress did was like... Suppose I quoted you Quadell like so

My outside view: Apparently Jokestress called Hfarmer a "fake" transsexual.It looks to me like Jokestress gave a lengthy quote about the term "Homosexual transsexual" on the article's talk page, and Hfarmer used that information to update the article. Another user found a different quote from the same source which Hfarmer believes lessens the impact of the original quote (although that's debatable). I see any manipulative or dishonest "selective quoting" by Jokestress. Nor do I see her pressuring anyone to write anything specific.In short, Jokestress should be reprimanded for off-Wiki comments that don't refer to Wikipedia, or for quoting from a source on a talkpage. I'd simply advise all editors to stay cool and try not to take things personally. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 00:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Thus totally changing the meaning of the words. And by the by calling a transsexual He is not civil either.--Hfarmer (talk) 01:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I apologize for calling you a "he". It wasn't intentional; I'd just made a dumb assumption. (7 out of 8 Wikipedian identify as male.) I wish English had common gender-neutral pronouns. – Quadell (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
See what I mean by selective quoting. Now take this seriously and look at the sitation for more than 1:30 sec.--Hfarmer (talk) 01:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
This seems to be content dispute. Having spent more than 1:30 sec looking this over, I don't see anything actionable. AniMatetalk 01:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
You also say that the website she links does not mention my wikipedia editing. Take a look at this ############# (I don't even want that to be a on a main page long enough for google to crawl it please check the edit history for the link. It basically makes it sound like any article I edith that has to do with transsxual/transgender issues is biased, and says much worse things than that.) Look at the list of articles they claim comprise that POV. Consider that according to these people pressure and blackmail are warranted to get their way. Screw having wikipedia be a neutral and reliable source, just so long as they get their way. Dosen't wikipedia have some sort of standard for the integrity of the people editing it. Can people with blatant COI's to the poin that they can't think straight do things like this, lie, game the system, lie, pressure people IRL, lie, and just keep on keeping on like that indefinitely?--Hfarmer (talk) 01:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Regardless, it isn't likely that an administrator will find it necessary to use admin privileges in this case. You may want to look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, which describes the steps to take when you have a disagreement on Wikipedia. These include requesting a third opinion, opening a request for comment, or seeking mediation. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I know of those, they deal with content issues, this is essentially a user conduct issue. I take it you looked at the websites I mentioned. What is it. I know 1st ammendment and all but what real life person can be expected to ignore such things. Take a look at that website and understand why I am now just barely civil to that person. How many would even manage that? I am looking for a way to go with this other than the arb com.--Hfarmer (talk) 02:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Users are given fairly wide latitude when it comes to off-Wiki behavior and posting. Would I be insulted by the site were I you? Yes. What does that mean on-Wiki? Not a whole lot. If you can present some sort of evidence that Jokestress has violated our standards of user conduct, I will look into willingly. As it stands, you've just presented off-wiki behavior and two different interpretations of a source. Again, there is nothing actionable. AniMatetalk 02:06, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Third opinions, RFC, and mediation all deal with user behavior as well as content disputes. – Quadell (talk) 02:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
What she just did on wiki is not a matter of interpretation it's like this, when you look at the totality of the case. She found a source with said "Stuff jokestress does not like was at least at one point considered valid psychological/psychiatric dogma and generally accepted. Stuff jokestress does not like is not considered valid psychological dogma in general which conforms to jokestresses view of the world." Then told me aboutthe source, which I did not know was on google books and had no access too as far as I know "Stuff jokestress does not like is not considered valid psychological dogma in general which conforms to jokestresses view of the world." leaving out the first part. That's like writing about anatomy and ignoreing everything from the waist down because you think it's vulgar, and presenting what you wrote as the whole story. It is a violation of the communities trust. A to our faces, bold face lie of omission and not in the interest of wikipedia. Instead in the interest of Jokestress's off wiki agenda.
I can see no way to deal with this matter onwiki in the open without giving her attack websites more currency and a better google rating. It cannot be acceptable to attack someone off wiki for what they do on wiki. Doing it in a way that "has a return address" is really something else. I am going to send email to functionaries-en and get the arb com etc's opinion on this. I hate to bother them but there really is no other way to handel this.--Hfarmer (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Neutralhomer abuse of rollback, again[edit]

Neutralhomer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

When responding to an OTRS ticket (Ticket:2009041510058851 for those with access) regarding the article titled WSLK I noticed that Neutralhomer is again, blatantly misusing the rollback feature, and citing a new users edits as vandalism, when they are clearly not. For example, see [7] [8] [9] [10], etc. I'm not here to discuss the content issue, as that is completely a different story and one that does not need further attention. I'd suggest removing this users rollback and twinkle privileges again. He is continuing to use it inappropriately, biting new users, and citing "vandalism" in a content dispute. It doesn't matter if the information he was reverting was correct or not, he should not have been using rollback nor citing the users edits as vandalism, as they clearly were not, and in fact, the information he was reverting was actually accurate, according to the information provided in the OTRS ticket (but again, this thread shouldn't be about the content issue - but about Neutralhomer's abuse of rollback).

See also, the most recent discussion which led to the removal of Neutralhomer's rollback/twinkle use ability on 2 November 2008. Also see the deleted revisions of his monobook.js as well as the existing revisions which show other removals.

It is also worth noting that when his twinkle/rollback use was restored back in December, I supported it on the condition (which he agreed to) that he would "not use Twinkle to revert anything except for blatant vandalism, as outlined here" - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on NeutralHomer's general use of Twinkle or rollback, and no, I don't have access to OTRS, but I don't think it's a terrible breach of rollback standards to use it to revert edits by a probable sock of someone who's been banned for making legal threats. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I cited the user, whose first account User:Joann5829 was blocked for this legal threat. I contacted the user by the phone number left on my talk page (via that first post) and I was told that the way that the user knew that his station could be heard in the area he claimed was from listening to it in his car. That is, as I stated in many posts, original research and not allowed. There was no talk with that user of an OTRS ticket and I would dispute any information in it as OR if it comes from listening to the station in his car.
After seeing this, this, and this all using the "car radio" excuse, I marked those as vandalism as I had already explained to the user about OR and any addition after, I felt and still do, would be vandalism...hence my templates.
The user made another account, User:Ternandes, and launched a weak personal attack and continued the vandalism. I had, by that time, requested page protection for the page, which was given by User:Nakon and the User:Ternandes blocked. The protection was taken away by User:Nakon for the discussion I had with User:Rjd0060 on his talk page and the OTRS ticket that was only brought up by User:Rjd0060 in that conversation. I was threatened then with my rollback being removed.
I stated to User:Rjd0060 that if the only information that the users can give is that they can hear it on their car radio, that is original research and not allowed. I appear to be overruled in that as the version by the owned of WSLK remains at this moment. I did not misuse my rollback or TWINKLE, I used it as I seen necessary. If they had cited their information or told me of the OTRS ticket, I would not have cited them for vandalism an —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neutralhomer (talkcontribs)

OR != blatant vandalism. It appears NeutralHomer breached his word from several months ago and I'll de-rollbacker in an hour or so pending more discussion here. MBisanz talk 01:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I think NH has failed to see the point, in that he agreed a few months ago to use twinkle only for "blatant vandalism as defined here". Original research or not, this is not vandalism, let alone blatant vandalism. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, let me make sure I understand. Removing it once and saying it is OR is OK, but removing it again and citing vandalism isn't? I don't want TWINKLE, I will remove the damned thing myself. - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 01:10
No, it isn't okay. You misused the tools that you said you weren't going to misuse. It is that simple — it was not vandalism (nor "blatant vandalism" and you used rollback/twinkle to remove it, several times). This is becoming a regular thing with you and it is highly inappropriate. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this is so clear and NH has already removed Twinkle, I've removed rollback. OR! ≠ vandalism is a distinction that matters because good faith contributors react differently to having their edits described as vandalism. Better to explain the OR policy to them a few times.--chaser - t 01:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, if you want to have an article completely composed of Original Research, allow users who have been blocked for legal threats to come back and continue editing as socks and punish the people who revert their edits as vandalism, then you can have my damned TWINKLE (which I already deleted). The rest of my monobook can't be used to revert, rollback or anything else. - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 01:17
There is nothing good faith about adding OR over and over and over and over after being told on the phone and online that it is not allowed. That is my opinion, but I don't think that matters much around here anymore either. - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 01:20
OR doesn't magically become vandalism because it is repeatedly re-added. In any case, you can still remove OR and do all the other good work you do without rollback.--chaser - t 01:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Except I can't do "good work" when I have to wonder "does this page have a secret unreadable OTRS ticket on it too" and I worry about another station owner being pissed at me because I write something that is cited and not OR. How can I work with that? My work on this page has been slammed and replaced with OR....what is stopping that from happening next time and the next and the next. - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 01:49
I would also point out that the user was blocked not banned (as Someguy1221 claims). A block for a legal threat does not give people a license to revert all their edits. This is a confused new user and we're treating him like a hardened sock-puppeting troll. Also, WP:DOLT; substitute "BLP subject" with "small company owner" and that essay describes pretty much exactly what happened here. Mr.Z-man 01:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, typo. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:50, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
@Chaser: AFAICT, the closest thing they every got to an explanation of the OR policy was this WP:BITE-y comment (though that was probably the only communication they got that wasn't a template warning for vandalism). Mr.Z-man 01:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
They were also told via phone what it meant too. I can't cite that (maybe cause it is OR), but they were told via phone about OR. - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 01:28
  • Question for everyone....what does one do about this article in its current version that the owner has said is from listening to the station in his own car? Do I revert? Do I correct? Do I update? What do I do, since I can't claim OR anymore? - NeutralHomerTalk • April 23, 2009 @ 02:45
    • You can make any edits you like, provided that you leave an informative edit summary. Please understand that it is inappropriate to use rollback do revert anything other than blatant vandalism. The fact that rollback can't be used to edit out or revert OR doesn't somehow mean that OR is a preferred state. I will attempt to AGF that you are just confused on that issue. Protonk (talk) 03:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
    • You can try discussing things on the talk page or try dispute resolution, but continuing to revert war is not at all productive. Mr.Z-man 05:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The now-blocked Ternandes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), who is either a sockpuppet or an impersonator of Joann5829 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (who says its last name is Ernandes[11]), clearly does not understand the concept of original research, based on the rant on its talk page[12], where it makes accusations against NeutralHomer and cites its own expertise as presumably all else. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Template:Infobox animanga[edit]


Bis senchi (talk · contribs) has been moving around {{Infobox animanga}} for some strange reason. The move went from {{Infobox animanga}} -> {{Japanime episode list - saiyuki}} -> {{Japanime episode list - saiyuki}} -> {{Episode list - saiyuki}} This needs to be undone to preserve the template's edit history is preserved. --Farix (Talk) 10:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Undone as the move was undiscussed and moved to a non-standard title. –xeno talk 13:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
He also made a host of fake, blank templates and tried to put them in Saiyuki (manga) and is making a mess among those articles. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Telling people how to abuse the abuse filter[edit]

I'd like a second opinion on this. Prom3th3an (talk · contribs) is providing specific instructions on how to exploit one of the abuse filter rules to create greater vandalism.

That the rule can be exploited is a fair point, and possible cause for revision (though no one ever has exploited it), but I don't feel it is appropriate to be publicly telling people how to do it. I removed his WP:BEANS comment twice. I won't do so again, though I continue to think such explanations are inappropriate (he could have raised the issue privately or alluded to the vulnerability without explaining it in detail). Dragons flight (talk) 03:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou so very much for notifying me of this thread (not), your setting a great example for an admin so far. My post, of which you altered was written to gain action, nothing more. It was not inteded to be malicious, but if you want to toy around with filter that infringe of peoples ability to edit a page you need to do it right and think it out before your implement it (did you ever learn the system development lifecycle?). I find it ammusing you would rathor censor my post and make a thread on ANI than fix your own filter or disable it untill you do. Prom3th3an (talk) 03:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
(ec) For the record, I've made the filter in question private while I consider what might be done to address his concern. (Though I don't think making it private does anything to mitigate the risk he created.) Dragons flight (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I would have notified you, but I hadn't gotten to it yet (you posted here only a few minutes after I did). Dragons flight (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
If i wanted to be a jerk about this I would have posted it on Wikipedia Review for all the vandals to see, but that wasnt my intention. If you were on IRC i would have told you that way. Also it doesnt take 4 minutes to say "Ive made a thread that may interest you here" ~~~~ Prom3th3an (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't edit people's posts. --NE2 03:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
If I were worried about WP:BEANS I think starting a thread on ANI is the last thing I would do. Landon1980 (talk) 03:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm working on the specific issue, but I also care about the principle here. I'd like some general support for the point of view that publicly declaring exploitable vulnerabilities is not the right way to go about it. Dragons flight (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Also I wish to note another flaw in DF's actions, whilst he may have made the filter private the request (of which consensus was somewhat unclear at best to disallow) is still easily viewed and contains the pages and images concerned thus negating making it private in the first place. Are you going to censor that too or fix or disable your filter? Looking at the page, so far this year only 1 user has removed the picutres concerned and was consequently blocked and never did it again. I dont think the issue is severe enough to warrent a disallow filter thus this filter should not even exist. I for one contest it on the pretence that it infinges on wikipedia's wiki nature. Prom3th3an (talk) 03:50, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Having a list of protected images is not at all the same is knowing that the specific implementation of the filter is vulnerable to the exploit you mentioned. Dragons flight (talk) 03:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Im not an einstien at regex like you [citation needed] but I can probably tell you exactly whats in that filter from just understanding what it does :). Prom3th3an (talk) 04:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I count 8 bouts of image deletion in the last about six weeks at Muhammad, so I'm not sure what you are looking at. Though I will happily disable it if the editors at the involved pages would prefer not to have it. Dragons flight (talk) 04:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

How is it helpful to toss out a 0day here? rootology (C)(T) 04:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Quite apart from the specific filter being discussed here, but people writing filters absolutely need to understand that many abuse filters can themselves be abused to cause problems (DOS attacks, unrevertable edits, other stuff). The evidence I've seen says that many people with filter privileges don't understand this at all. In my opinion, pointing out that a particular filter breaks something is fair game, if the intent is to get particular breakage fixed or to stop people from creating thoughtless filters. I don't think Prom3th3an was looking to enable vandalism here, any more than someone posting an exploitable bug to bugzilla is looking to enable vandalism - he was trying to point out that the filter as (seems to be) written had a giant ugly thoughtless evil hole in it that shouldn't have been there. I hope it's not there now, because if it is, being private doesn't make it less broken. If you're writing filters, please remember that they can have bad effects regardless of whether they have good ones. Added after edit conflict: it would be nice to have a procedure to report such problems without causing a zero-day exploit. We don't seem to have such a procedure now, so I don't see how he could have avoided it. Gavia immer (talk) 04:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The developers will yell at you if you put major exploits openly into bugzilla. They also expect such things to be handled via private communication, as this could have been. Dragons flight (talk) 04:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The point of WP:BEANS is to prevent disrution. And the point of refactoring the comments would seem to be an attempt to prevent disruption. While in general I think editing others' comments is definitely something to be avoided, I think in this case, DF was attempting to reduce potential disruption. (Per WP:TALK.)

And incidentally, indicating that you (User:Prom3th3an) have no issue with making such statements, causes me to sincerely doubt your good faith in the discussion/process. - jc37 04:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)From my own personal experiance, you tend to have to sing things to people to make sure things get done. I note that WP:BEANS is one or more editors opinions, it is not policy nor guideline. I also note that WP:TALK mentions notihng about editing users comments to minimise ones own bruised ego. Which I could sincerely extrapulate is the pretence of this thread. Finally, once DF fixes the issue there will be no concern about what could or permanent damage done and we can move on, though to fix the issue would involve something like counting the occurances of the images which would increase the running time of that script drastically Prom3th3an (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Given further thought. If DF was to use the acutal image names and set the actions to trigger on add and remove then that would be an ideal fix (since theres already one copy on the page). Prom3th3an (talk) 04:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I've patched the rule so it isn't possible for a person to do something that they themselves (or someone will comparable privileges) couldn't undo. The patch is something of a hack. It isn't exploitable the way the previous code was, but it might create a rare false positive. Before trying to clean this up further I'm going to discuss the matter with the editors at the affected articles because it may require making some choices about preferred behavior. I don't expect to work on this further tonight however. Dragons flight (talk) 04:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Now that you've patched it shouldn't the filter be public now? Who knows, I might spot another exquisite mistake, However now that the WP:POINT has been made I will endevor to contact you privately. Prom3th3an (talk) 04:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the false positives are anything but rare. Can we undo the patch till this is figured out?--BirgitteSB 18:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Yashveer r blocked[edit]

Please see also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive524#Yashveer_r. I have blocked this user indef after continued disruption after his prior block expired. Other admins feel free to change it. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

PLEASE keep him blocked! As soon as his 24-hour block expired he began vandalizing film articles again. He knows what he's doing is wrong because numerous people have left messages on his talk page. Since he never responds he obviously plans to continue doing things the way he wants. (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
This editor makes mass changes to infoboxes without consultation. He has never left a Talk comment or an edit summary as far as I can tell. Support block. EdJohnston (talk) 17:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Cruise Control Guy[edit]

Please, please, please would someone with CU privileges look into this latest MascotGuy sock and possibly his last few creations over on WP:LTA/MG? As I've been screaming, it's time for some very broad rangeblocks and the investigation of legal action if it applies. This is gotten beyond the realm of an occasional kiddie-wiki vandal or some little boob with an axe to grind at ED. This is serious business from a very disturbed and obsessed individual, IMO. It needs to stop and it needs to stop now. Even on my break I find myself still patrolling the new user's log and I would love to stop having to worry about this clown once and for all. I'm sick and tired of it. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 01:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me if you've already thought of this, but the best way to get Checkuser attention would seem to be filing a report at WP:SPI. The User:Cruise Control Guy does not seem to have been discussed at that forum. Skomorokh 03:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I did, but it seems to take a month of Sundays to get anything done there. I'll request a rangeblock, though. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 18:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Block review - SchnitzelMannGreek[edit]


In January of this year, User:SchnitzelMannGreek was blocked for disruptive editing (due to ridiculous death threats). Not too long after this, he started using sockpuppets (quite a large amount of them) to harass users, primarily myself. Since this, however, it would appear he has turned over a new leaf. Due to all his accounts being blocked without talk page access, he created a series of "Axis" accounts: User:Axis1, User:Axis2, User:Axis3, User:Axis4, User:Axis 555, User:Axis 666 and User:Axis Power of Schnitzel-Atens Greece in order to get a message out to me that he has a desire to stop all harassment entirely and that he is willing to contribute constructively. During a conversation with him at User_talk:Axis_666, his talk page was disabled. After a conversation at IRC, SMG was required to use email to make further unblock requests. Judging by the conversation at User_talk:Helfen_derVineal (which, unfortunately I was away while this was taking place), he cannot email unblock for technical reasons. Looking at User_talk:Helfen_derVineal and User_talk:TheDawnofRepentance, I would give a strong support for an unblock, on the condition that he agrees to a mentorship (which I would be willing to do myself), and that he only uses the original account, User:SchnitzelMannGreek. I think this would be a good time to assume good faith and give him a last chance. It only takes a few seconds to reblock if disruption starts again, and CheckUser would be able to root out any (which I doubt there are) sockpuppets being abused. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Also on a side note: I think he tried to start anew as well, as User:GreekLander Intelligence. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The point is, I see no harm in giving the user a last chance, and he is in a very difficult situation where, because he cannot email unblock, he must either create sockpuppets in order to request unblock, or attempt to come back as an uninvolved user under a different name. Please consider an unblock so we can put this behind us. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
If anybody needs more information, I'm willing to go find it and post it here. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh hell no. Abuse, harassment, socking, typical 'I won't do it again, honest!' begging... no wy. Come back six months after he's stopped socking. //roux   18:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Inferno, as I've told you countless times, he would stand a much higher chance of being unblocked if he would stop making these different accounts to "start anew". Right now, he is effectively community banned, by virtue of the fact nobody is willing to unblock him. Because of that, he is not entitled to edit Wikipedia under any name. He needs to stop editing Wikipedia entirely. Continually attempting to appeal this case on various forums isn't helping either - we call that forum shopping. If SMG wants to demonstrate how he can be useful to our project, he may want to consider working on. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry about the forum shopping...I don't want to be annoying, it's just that I'd feel...almost guilty in a way if somebody who has a desire to contribute constructively was barred from the project and I wasn't able to help...I'll stop (I wrote this without realizing how many times I had asked for this, sorry). The only problems I really have right now are that communicating with him is highly difficult due to socks being instantly blocked without talk page access, and the fact that it looks like his email is not working, so he feels like he has to sock to appeal. I think having him work on simple is a good idea (with mentorship, though). Do you think it would be possible to get a checkuser done on him so that on the off chance he's made another account we could tell him this (before it gets blocked so he actually looks at it)? To me it seems it would be borderline policy compliant, but I don't know if that is done in practice. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
He can still receive messages posted to his talk page. I highly doubt a checkuser request for that purpose would be considered - it sounds like "fishing" to me. Hersfold (t/a/c) 22:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I'm marking this as resolved. The problem is that it's not a talk page, it's many. I left a message on the original SMG talk page, so we'll see what happens. Inferno, Lord of Penguins (talk) 22:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Greek nationalist canvassing off-wiki[edit]

It's come to my attention that Greek nationalist blogs are apparently urging readers to come to Wikipedia and campaign about the recent move of the Republic of Macedonia article to Macedonia (see [13] and [14] for more). New single-purpose accounts like Nickanor (talk · contribs) and SQRT5P1D2 (talk · contribs) and various anonymous IPs are already appearing as a result and posting reams of material to Macedonia-related talk pages and an ongoing arbitration case. I've asked the arbitrators for a temporary injunction in the arbitration case to prevent it from being spammed to death (see [15]), but it would be helpful if people could watch Macedonia and related articles for disruption. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Please understand I am in no way necessarily disputing what you are saying. But could you provide us with an idea of what the two off-wiki links you added are saying? I'm sorry, but many of us can't read that, and I'm not sure an automatic translator would necessarily give us a good idea of their content. John Carter (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have added a translated link for your convenience - see [16]. Note that SQRT5P1D2 (talk · contribs) is the author of that blog post. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
No problem. Not entirely sure what "not sarises, the arbitrator makes red" is supposed to mean (what are sarises?) but it does definitely seem likely that there will be other newbies coming in as well. Considering that this is about the ArbCom specifically though, it might be best to post a message on the Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee page and ask for semi-protection? I would support such protection, however. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Never saw that one, but I'd guess no insults or you'll be blocked; or it could be tic for something else. Embarassingly I must look it up. Nonetheless, John's advice is excellent. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:07, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
It means "avoid nationalist rhetoric, you'll be punished by the arbitrators", since sarissa is a Macedonian weapon and signifies nationalist pride. By the way this goes both ways: This is a news report from a news channel in the Republic of Macedonia [17]. Can it go more high profile than this? Anyway, I fully support the semi-protection. This is absolutely the last thing we want right now. --Avg (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I was close -- sort of. Never heard of sarissa, but then I couldn't bring up the Greek page. 19:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Good lord... the only thing missing from this is a mention on The Colbert Report. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
(ec) (Sarissas were the extra-long spears developed for the Macedonian phalanx and used so effectively by Philip and Alexander.) And these are the same voices that cry foul when we call this a "nationalist issue". I support the semi-protection or restriction to already named participants. (I note that someone added their name to the list of participants a couple of hours ago--someone who "did not exist" a week ago.) (Taivo (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC))
Classic wiki. Fyromian accuses 'Grreek nationalists' of trying to flood Wiki with spam/ Then we see a Fyromian News Channel advertising the debate to their own Fyrom nationalists! I have never seen a Wiki page, this time, the Macedonia page in question!! on a news channel site!!!!!! Stunning! Reaper7 (talk) 19:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you stop using "Fyromian" it has been noted that is considered offensive, it's also not English and you can be warned for this, I'm puzzled why that has not happened yet. man with one red shoe 19:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

As for this issue it's clear that the arbitrators should not accept comments from accounts created after the case has been opened. man with one red shoe 19:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Wiki can resolve a UN question. Probably not. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't hold your breath. We can't even get a stable version of List of Roman consuls. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
If it doesn't include Caligula's horse it's obviously inadequate! -- ChrisO (talk) 19:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO, I might be a newly registered user but over the years, I've made significant contributions to hundreds of Wikipedia articles, in three languages. AFAIK, Wikipedia doesn't prevent anonymity. I've created this account in order to be able to track what is a serious matter to many Wikipedians. You seem to try to justify your actions by labeling others as "nationalists", while you're the first to blame for promoting nationalism, even if you didn't want to. If fellow Wikipedians want to find out about my arguments for Macedonia's open case, they can go here. Let them be the judge. You're clearly not in a position to be one, since neutrality is a word that escaped from your lexicon. In any case, it is interesting to see that you follow "greek nationalist blogs"; they surely are beyond my aesthetics. Reading this, some could suggest that you had an agenda regarding Macedonia's move. But not me; I do not represent the thought police. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

It is, of course, very safe to claim that you have "made significant contributions to hundreds of Wikipedia articles" as an anonymous IP since no one can prove or disprove the claim. But the arbitration was already populated with equal numbers of participants on both sides of the issue--participants who had an interest in the topic prior to the arbitration case and who have a demonstrable track record in Wikipedia as named editors and administrators. I support the proposal to semi-protect the arbitration from new accounts. (Taivo (talk) 19:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC))
If the arbitration pages are disrupted by a flood of new accounts, I'm sure the clerks and arbitrators can handle that. The advice to keep an eye on all pages related to Macedonia is well taken. Let's also not let this page turn into a battleground. Jonathunder (talk) 20:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Taivo, as I said previously, I do not represent the thought police. If other Wikipedians do, let me know. Certainly, my sixth sense is on the weak side. It seems that some try to change the rules in the middle of the game, because they don't like other people coming from the bench. Even if I don't have to, let me inform you that humans sometimes participate in those little mythical celebrations of life, so aptly named "holidays". Let this be clear: if you have any valid arguments, don't keep them secret. But be a sport and quit diving into the penalty area. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
If I might make a suggestion. You do give me the impression of being someone who has been around a while, whether with an account or not. It is generally the case that Arbitration pages are used almost exclusively by those who are directly involved with the case, or who have been peripherally involved in some of the events which led up to the case, like talk page conversations, reversions, and whatever. So far as I can tell, I can't see that you have necessarily been involved in any of them. Any "newer" editors would be even less likely to have done anything earlier.
It might be possible that you could request that you be added to the list of parties to the arbitration. Or, if you prefer, you could ask me to do so, considering I already am a part of the case. If that doesn't work, you would be free to leave any relevant comments on the talk pages of the various mainspace pages. I've been involved in enough cases to know the arbitrators read that as well. John Carter (talk) 20:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I would be more than happy to be added to the list. I might be an old Wikipedian, but there are many sides that I have yet to explore. If you could add me to the list, then I will do my best to present my arguments, trying to keep Wikipedia's standards to a high level. But I think that my talk page is more suitable for this discussion. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO, John Carter and others, as for the posts in blogs, you should know that someone took this newsgroup posting (check timestamp), informing others on the matter (as I too was informed by other Wikipedians) and asking future participants NOT TO use rhetoric based on nationalism (the "sarises" thing). I also made an analogy with football, roughly translating that nationalism takes a red card. How's that for "promoting nationalism"? I've clearly laid out my arguments here. Seeing what the move did, shifting nationalistic patterns to the other side, it's ridiculous to label people like me as "nationalists". The original newsgroup posting has the tongue in cheek title "Minority's nationalism is sweeter". Next time, before accusing someone, do your homework. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Um, actually, if you look higher in the thread, you'll see we already knew about that post. Please remember that not everyone can read Greek in the English wikipedia. While ChrisO did at my request provide a link to a translated version, that translation is rather garbled and I for one had at best a vague idea regarding what it was saying. In any event, the offer to, at your request, ask to have you added to the arbitration stands. John Carter (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I quit posting here to do something else, therefore I didn't see all the comments. That's why I was a late joiner to the party. I will provide an accurate translation of the newsgroup posting, which was taken and spammed all over the greek internets, even adding things that I didn't write! I will gladly accept your offer. Everybody else, check my talk page for a translation in a while. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

As promised, here is the translation of my original newgroup posting that was taken and spread around the greek internets, in whole or in part, altered or not. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Mbhiii sockpuppetry disruptive edits[edit]

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Mbhiii. This guy and his socks continue to add and re-add unsourced and largely irrelevant and somewhat incorrect material to Reciprocity (photography). It's a tiny technical issue, but hard to work on with a guy who won't even acknowledge who he is. I told him I'd treat it as vandalism, but my block request was declined. Suggestions? Dicklyon (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Stop name-calling and address the substantive issues. - (talk) 23:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but would you care to point out where exactly was Dicklyon name-calling? Whip it! Now whip it good! 23:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I called him a sock. In response to the request to "address the substantive issue", I presume he means the technical issue and the policy issue, so I have provided an in-depth explanation for anyone who cares, here: Talk:Reciprocity (photography)#"The substative issue". Dicklyon (talk) 04:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
...and "vandal" for reverting his repeated blanking of substantial edits. - (talk) 14:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Right, thanks for reminding me; I did say I would treat your continued disruption as vandalism, which I then did. Dicklyon (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits at The Clone Republic by and Rotwechsel (another conjectured sock) add confirmation to the pattern. Dicklyon (talk) 15:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Steven Shaman[edit]

He's created an article about himself that just survived speedy deletion, but the real issue at hand isn't WP:COI, it's verifying that he is who says he is, especially considering the fact that he seems to be notable. Whip it! Now whip it good! 23:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone could, you know, explain things to him instead of templating him. He can identify to OTRS. Thatcher 23:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Sent article to AfD. Notability is marginal here. This person has a high profile on blogs, YouTube, podcasts, etc. but zero visibility in the Google News archive. Let the AfD sort it out. --John Nagle (talk) 04:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay, 1) No one ever mentioned to that user that he had a thread on ANI (bad form on the thread poster, in my opinion), and 2) No one has mentioned to the user (on his talk page) that the article has been sent to AfD. Looks like we're starting off great with this new user. Killiondude (talk) 07:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Put a note on the user's talk page that he has an AfD pending. --John Nagle (talk) 17:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Does this breach civility?[edit]

Hello, I was just reporting User:Heracletus, for the offensive comments and racial slurs left on my talk page yesterday. Our dealings were initially "friendly" however soon the situation changed. I was prepared to let go the reference to Macedonia under the offensive term "Σκόπια" (Skopia) [18]. However what "broke the camels back", was not the offensive and the derogatory terms used in the essay long rants. But after declaring war on the part of his country [19], these comments "Go F*^K OFF!" [20] were particularly offensive. Followed half an hour later by, "I will repeat it, GO F*%K OFF!" [21]. Do these actions breach WP:CIVIL? Thank you. PMK1 (talk) 00:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I warned the user at their talk page [22]. Cirt (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Just to add a little extra background, the (unjustified) outburst came when User:PMK1 called User:Heracletus (or rather his village) Grecoman[23]. As you will see in the article, this is a very offensive pejorative term and it is taken very seriously by those offended. Also "Skopje" is not an offensive term, this is false. It is the capital of the state and the common name people in Greece use to refer to Macedonia, since they have their own Macedonia. Not that I agree with this breach of civility of course. Also note that User:PMK1 seems to be in the habit of filing AN/I cases this couple of days--Avg (talk) 01:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah okay thanks for the background info, I still think the comments merited, at the least, a warning. Cirt (talk) 01:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This Greece/Macedonia crap needs to be brought to a complete and utter end, immediately. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 02:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Avg, I in no way labelled User:Heracletus a Grecoman or anything of that nature. This is a false claim. I said that I was aware of a few Aromanian villages in who in the past had pro-Greek feelings, these feelings have long since disapeared. Please retract your statement, in no way did I call/label Heracletus, or his village (I do not know him nor where he is from), as a Grecoman. I was personally shocked by these claims.
To other users, "Skopia/Skopianika/Skopians" are deemed offensive terms by many people living in the Republic of Macedonia. Juts becuase they are frequently used elsewhere does not make it less offensive. Thank you. PMK1 (talk) 03:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh please PMK1, don't be so personally shocked. You have labelled even myself Grecoman a while ago[24], I just haven't replied the way I probably should. And not so surprisingly, User:Heracletus quotes "Grecoman" two times as the reason of his outburst, just above the swearing. Anyway.--Avg (talk) 16:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest seeing if we can get the arbitration committee to consider another version of the WP:ARBMAC solution and just put an end to this nonsense. I wish we would take more of a stronger attitude to incivil statements. PMK1, a suggestion. Try not to use terms that link to article that say that those terms are pejoratives. You'd be surprised to find that less people get annoyed when you do that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandal cluster, or sockfarm?[edit]

I've just temp-blocked Mkinge (talk · contribs) and Mon the hersch (talk · contribs). Googling for a name found in their previous edits found very similar vandalism by Chelseaharbour (talk · contribs). All these accounts look like slow-mo vandalism accounts: could they be part of a larger sockfarm? -- The Anome (talk) 13:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Banker123 (talk · contribs) appears to be another one. -- The Anome (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Deferred WP:SPI :) -- lucasbfr talk 14:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What's up with this image?[edit]

Can an admin please look at this deletion log? The deletion log states that the image was restored shortly after it's deletion. But obviously, it's not really there. Note: I'm not asking for a deletion review, there might be reasons not to allow fair use of this image, but that's not the point of my enquiry. To me, this more looks like a technical problem. --PaterMcFly (talk) 14:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

It must have been a selective undeletion, restoring only the history of the description page, but not the files. There is a deleted version of the file still in the deletion history. Fut.Perf. 14:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Restored the latest version, I think Protonk's undelete failed because the first version image was lost some way or an other: Error undeleting file: Could not find file "deleted/e/m/y/emybxddmey80zw6fjv6ou1cp0klgp24.jpg". -- lucasbfr talk 14:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. --PaterMcFly (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Grant Alpaugh[edit]

Can someone remind Grant.Alpaugh (talk · contribs · block log) that he is not allowed to edit on Wikipedia. On April 20, he was blocked indefinitely by Nja247 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for abusively using multiple accounts, edit warring, and block evasion, but this morning he returned as (talk · contribs) to rejoin the discussion on Template talk:2009 Major League Soccer season table that ultimately got him the indefinite block. He was rather nice in his edits to identify the IP address as being him in his discussion.[25]--Bobblehead (rants) 15:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone thinks it may be a hoax, ip2location places the IP in Dayton, Ohio, home of Wright State University and Grant. Grsz11 16:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 Confirmed, hardblocked the IP. -- lucasbfr talk 16:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Severe vandalism by multiple IPs[edit]

In the Pages Middle Power and Great Power several IPs used by the same user have been removing large amounts of information. Specifically, ones that say that some academics consider United Kingdom and France middle powers instead of great powers. Because of his action, he has gotten the Great Power page protected atleast twice. Once the protection was gone, he went back to doing the same thing. In the page middle power, it's the exact same thing. And he also has gotten the page protected twice, and has refused to talk.

User:Ged_UK has done one of the page protections on Great Power while User:SoWhy has done the rest of the protections on Great and Middle power against this vandal.

Great Power revision history (first 2 pages when you have it showing 250 edits) Great Power revision history

Middle Power revision history (first page when you have it showing 250 edits) Middle power revision history

Each time, he has refused to discuss the problem at all, despite all the times the pages were locked. Here are all of the different IPs he has used. The earliest edit has been March 28th, the latest being today. The only times there were edits were when the IP was blocked, or the page was protected. warned once. warned once. warned once and was asked to discuss the problem. warned once. warned once. warned once warned and blocked (might be unblocked now) warned and blocked (might be unblocked now)

The worst part is, the IP knew it got the warnings. Several times if you look at the contributions, one of the IPs went to an old IP with a warning, and deleted it. Several times during the revision history and atleast on one of the talk pages, the IP was asked to discuss the problem. The IP has not done it at all. I think the only solution is a range block. Deavenger (talk) 00:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Moved from WP:AIV Malinaccier (talk) 00:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I am an occasional contributor to these articles and more frequent contributor to their talk pages. They are magnets for nationalist POV pushers. But in spite of previous differences, there is now general agreement among their regular editors. I cannot abide by editors who edit without giving edit summaries or discussing their case on talk pages. This seems to be a case of the same editor using multiple IPs, or some kind of concerted deletion by a pressure group of material which it does not happen to like. Viewfinder (talk) 06:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
That's quite a range of IPs. Unless someone more IP-savvy than I decides to implement rangeblocks, I think further semi-protection may be the best solution. If they won't talk, we can't explain to them how Wikipedia works, and how content decisions are made. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Problem is, we have tried telling the user multiple times to discuss on the talk page, and left warnings on atleast 8 of the accounts. Multiple times, he used a similar IP to go and delete the warnings from the previous account, and had a user warn against doing that. I see the only solution as a rangeblock. Deavenger (talk) 02:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC) Another one just happened -- Phoenix (talk) 19:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)



Buster7 has violated WP:NPA. [26] JCDenton2052 (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't look like a personal attack at all. Looie496 (talk) 01:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Maybe JCDenton's talking about the edit summary? Pretty tame, though, if that's the case. Kcowolf (talk) 01:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
What is a provacator anyways? It seems like a video game, unless he means provacateur. -download | sign! 01:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
You're thinking of vindicator as in the old video game Vindicators. MuZemike 01:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Might I suggest we do something productive? - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Just to clear it up, this was a response to me mentioning his lack of neutrality on another page. This is not a personal attack. Soxwon (talk) 01:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive POV framing of dispute resolution processes by User:Off2riorob[edit]

Off2riorob (talk · contribs) started a Request for Comment at the talk page of a WP:GA-quality rated article, 1985 Rajneeshee assassination plot, by inappropriately framing the name of the subsection of the RFC in a POV manner, as: this comment in the lede falsifies the facts. and portrays a biased pov. The WP:RFC process is meant to gather outside opinion in a neutral manner, and present the ongoing dispute in a matter-of-fact presentation. Clearly the subsection and presentation of the RFC initially by Off2riorob (talk · contribs) blatantly failed to present the matter in a WP:NPOV fashion. I reformatted the RFC in a neutral, matter-of-fact manner, with the subsection title of simply: RfC: High-ranking followers. After three other users commented in the RFC aside from myself and Off2riorob (talk · contribs), Off2riorob changed the RFC back to his POV framing of the dispute [27], and also incorrectly changed the RFC to be a Request for Comment on policy [28].

Off2riorob (talk · contribs) also has a history of POV framing of disputes and misuse of the Wikipedia:Third opinion process, examples include: comment in the lede protrays a biased pov and falsifies the facts. and the subject has more than one name so for clarity in the lede I feel it benefits the clarity of the article to also linking Rajneesh to the name used now and a little rewrite to improve the English.

Please also see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive521#Disruptive_behavior_and_incivility_by_User:Off2riorob, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive530#Disruption_from_two_users_at_a_GA-rated_article, and block log.

Other than myself and Off2riorob (talk · contribs), three users have commented:

Admin EncMstr commented on the talk page to Off2riorob (talk · contribs): Cirt's question is perfectly on point. Please answer it or quit arguing that synthesized words should be added. - in response Off2riorob (talk · contribs) assumes bad faith, does not respond to the substance of the comment by EncMstr, and instead calls him "tag teaming".

This user is a disruptive WP:SPA who has done nothing but complain and be disruptive at a WP:GA-rated quality article, and disruptively frames the dispute resolution process to suit his POV. The user has already been blocked twice for disruption on the same topic of Rajneesh (indeed, this same article), and I think further admin action is warranted here. I would appreciate it if another administrator could look into this. Thank you for your time, Cirt (talk) 00:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Blocked again YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Seems like a reasonable block. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, I was considering a block based on edit-warring within the subject matter of the RFC. (for instance this one.) My perception is that the editor in question is enthusiastic, and is very quick to use dispute resolution tools that he doesn't clearly understand yet. It's becoming a bit of a tax on WP's resources (i.e. the time and patience of more experienced editors and administrators). -Pete (talk) 20:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
He's requested adoption and was adopted shortly before this block was implemented. Let's hope that sets things on track. DurovaCharge! 02:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

How to deal with editor merging articles without attribution to earlier article?[edit]

We have a new account, Trust Is All You Need (talk · contribs), who is doing copy and paste merges on a number of articles dealing with the Etruscans, eg the new article Hypotheses and theories for Etruscan origin (and note that it has "a suggestion offered thirty years ago" whereas the book in questin was written in 1841) - the edit history gives no clue as to which articles (I know of at least two) the material was moved from [29]. Another example is the article Etruscan civilization, edit history here: [30]. I've raised the content issues elsewhere [31] but given his lack of response on his talk page to various requests (although he's now protested on my talk page about my reverting him), I'm not sure what to do about the fact he doesn't seem to understand or care that he's losing the history of the material he's moving around. Is this something I should just ignore, or if not, can anyone else suggest a way of getting him to stop? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 18:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If he won't play the game, then he needs to be blocked. Cut-and-paste moves aren't allowed and he shouldn't be doing them. I think that reverting, or if that's not technically possible, then WP:SPLICEing would be best. ╟─TreasuryTagcontribs─╢ 18:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm merging articles because all of them "lack sources" and are "badly written" even by my standards and i'm merging information to other articles. On the other hand, i'm modling the article after Ancient Rome. To merge it back is wrong because your version lacks sources / references which i'm fixing. I've added new citations to un-referenced sentences. If i'm doing something wrong you "unagree" with tell me. But merging articles that are in "bad shape," "un-referenced," "small" and needs "serious clean up" is not wrong. If you want to fix this re-write the articles and "expand" them. But don't revert it back to a states were it has "wrong" information which you would all agree wouldn't help the wikipedia "at all, would it?" --Trust Is All You Need (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Will copy on your talk page to make this clear, but...
We are not saying that you should not improve the articles. What we're saying is that you can't do that by cutting and pasting.
That's not a style issue. It's a legal issue. When you cut and paste like that, you copy text from one article without attribution to the new article. The GFDL license which Wikipedia operates under requires that Wikipedia maintain attribution for all editors' contributions.
We do and will block you if you continue to violate our licensing terms.
Improving articles is encouraged. Please keep doing that. But don't violate the license.
Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Just a question, if an article "is not up to shape" independently, what should you do about it. The article is to short and to find a "quick sollution" you can merge it and later "re-establish" the page and re-write it and make the encyclopaedia better place. Many of these articles aren't so popular, take a look at the Etruscan history page, its history page counts a little more then 20 edits May, 2007. People havn't worked on this article since Botteville created the article and it doesn't seem any of you are trying to "expand or help it either!" That article is enough for a reasonable section in the Etruscan main page, take a look for yourself. That page is to "short" and "no one seems to be working on it! NB!"

Talking of copy and past, take a look at the Ancient Roman society, its entirely copy-pasted, why havn't you done anything with that article? --Trust Is All You Need (talk) 19:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

That article was not a copy paste, it was a split that was reversed and the newer page simply neglected to be removed. You need to be very careful what you accuse others of just because you are in the hot seat.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
If the article should be merged, propose a merge, and then have someone who's done merges and knows how to merge article histories properly do it. That avoids losing track of who wrote what.
We're not disagreeing that articles need improvement. As long as the improvement doesn't break the license, please do so!
Regarding Ancient Roman society - a 25k article springing up out of nowhere is a little suspicious, yes. Where do you believe it came from? What was it copy-pasted from? I'm not familiar with the topic well enough to know the other related articles. Or do you think it came from an off-wiki source? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
It came from Ancient Rome --Trust Is All You Need (talk) 19:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
See [32] - someone needs to have a word with the editor, who is still active. I've fixed the Etruscan origins article, not without a struggle. :-) I'm getting some resources for it also. Dougweller (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah, yeah. It looks like nobody who understands the copyright issues saw it at the time, on first impression. Good spot there, Trust. Thanks for letting us know. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I am a little confused and very concerned that my membername and a suggestion from last July that was settled long ago is coming back here as a discussion somehow linking me to another member. I do not know what the problem is with the above talk discussion but I have not edited on that page (Ancient Rome) in some time. I don't think I have ever edited on the Etruscan Origins article.
My main area of edits has been on the Theatre of Pompey article, as well as Rostra and a few others. Recently I became aware of a number of Copyright issues involving images. I have asked for speedy deletion of a number of images with improper lisence and one that was improperly released into the public domain. As for copy and paste, I look very closly for this and spotted one on the Pantheon article, which I brought to the attention of editors there who chnaged the wording that was lifted exactly from an off site article. Please explain what exactly do I have to do with this subject?--Amadscientist (talk) 22:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I now understand what is going on. Last July I made a bold change on the Ancient Rome article. I split the article by removing the society section and creating the new Roman Society article as part of that split. It was reversed and then i began that talk section. It was decided that the article can be as long as it needs to be without splitting it. The only problem is....the Roman Society article was never deleted.

I do not understand the accusations of copyright or mention of off site stuff. This was simpoly a split that was reversed and noone thought to get rid orf the other page.

Instead of making mountains out of mole hills just request the article be speedily deleted. Hell, I'll do that. I am still confused as to exactly why "someone needs to have a word" with me. What exactly was wrong with what I did? I made a bold edit. It was reversed and discussed. The only mistake that I can see is forgetting to have the article deleted. Does this clear anything up for you guys. GEEEESH!--Amadscientist (talk) 00:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't worry about this too much. The way we uncovered it raised a lot of questions, but we assume good faith and there was a perfectly reasonable explanation here. No harm, no foul. Thanks for helping clear it up. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
No problem. I will admit I was upset by the direction this was beginning to take. I value my membership here and I dislike copyright violations.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
And I have no doubt about that myself. You've been doing a good job. Thanks for the quick action on the redundant article. Dougweller (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


Edit warring, if anyone cares[edit]

Hi. It's been brought to my attention that User:Badagnani and User:GraYoshi2x are reverting each other on multiple articles and leaving (and reverting) unpleasant messages on talk pages. User:Ronz can tell you more. I've dealt with Badagnani in the past, and I'd recommend blocking him; he's intractable and doesn't care about consensus. I don't know much about the other guy.

I'm posting here because I won't get involved. Badagnani wouldn't listen to anything I say anyway. I tried to help him once, and he rudely threw it back in my face, so... yeah. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

User:GraYoshi2x has subjected me to the worst WP:STALK I have ever experienced during my time at WP, over the past 4 or so weeks following me to nearly every article I have edited, on all subjects, always to revert or remove my contributions. The discussion page postings and edit summaries were similarly over-the-top--the most threatening I have ever encountered. As WP:STALK is against WP policy, I had asked an admin (in fact, the admin just above) to please ask that the WP:STALK editor please stop doing this, and he informed me that he would not, and that in fact he does not take either WP policies or guidelines into account when carrying out his admin duties. If no admin will ask that WP:STALK be stopped, our fundamentally positive, collaborative, and collegial project can easily be undermined in a manner very damaging to the above ideals. The admin just above did state, twice, privately to other editors, that he hoped I would eventually be blocked, and it seems that the above comment is an effort to get that to happen. As one of the most sincere and productive contributors here--one who loves and cares about this project and its collaborative ethos--the above request that I no longer be permitted to contribute here comes as a huge blow. Badagnani (talk) 03:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Badagnani for details on many, similar situations.
I'm not sure what else to add. The edit-warring over Rice noodles vs List of rice noodles should stop given that lack of dispute resolution attempts on the matter. The issue over Wiktionary linking should be discussed and resolved before trying to apply it to multiple articles. --Ronz (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Yer shittin' us. They're edit warring over rice noodles? HalfShadow 03:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Badagnani and GraYoshi2x: please stop edit warring. Badagnani, you've started 1288 articles. Please do something constructive. You may get blocked if you continue edit warring. I won't be happy to see a productive editor like you getting blocked. AdjustShift (talk) 03:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Kindly read the above; this is not primarily about any particular article per se; it is about an editor who has elected to follow me to nearly every page I have edited, on whatever subject, always in an effort to undo or blank my contributions--the worst WP:STALK I have ever experienced during my tenure at WP. I don't know why this is and have asked an admin to please ask that this stop (in fact, the very admin who initiated this discussion, and who earlier commented to three other editors that he had hoped I would be eventually removed from Wikipedia), but nothing has been done. WP:STALK is a policy, not a guideline, and am I to infer that the above admin also chooses not to uphold this policy? Further, I do not understand why I was specifically addressed in the above comment, while the WP:STALK editor actively removing content again and again on any and every page I edit was not? Badagnani (talk) 03:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This is a complex issue. I've not been involved with this issue. So, admins who are familiar with this issue should resolve this issue. My advice for both parties: don't edit war, please solve the issue by taking with each other. And please keep your head cool. AdjustShift (talk) 03:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Speaking as an admin who has been involved with one of these editors, I'm way too burned from my interactions with Badagnani to be any use resolving the issue. That's why I posted here. I don't know if anyone else is really waiting in the wings... What do you do with an editor who insists that he's entitled to never an edits reverted without his prior consent, and that anyone who finds his behavior at all problematic is a bullying stalker, who's forbidden on his talk page? -GTBacchus(talk) 15:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I've tried to repeatedly talk with Badagnani and try to engage in some peaceful discussion; however, he simply removes my comments from his talk page and threatens me to "not post here again", and sometimes even attacks me. Although I do realize that I got myself into an edit war and I apologize for any trouble that it may have caused. Perhaps my frustration got the better of me. GraYoshi2x►talk 03:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments; the discussion page postings from User:GraYoshi2x, from the very first I received, have been the most extreme, threatening, and aggressive postings I have ever received from any editor, ever, during my four years contributing at WP. Examples include [33] and [34] This was followed by a straight month (nearly 30 straight days) of any and every article I edited, on any subject, of the above editor choosing to follow me as per WP:STALK (which is against WP policy), always in an effort to undo or remove content I contributed. This creates difficulty in discussing in a thoughtful and collegial manner, when it was thoughtful, collegial, and considered discussion I requested from the outset, and all along. Badagnani (talk) 03:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The first example was a bit rude and I did apologize for that. However, I made a valid point on the second as you chose not to cooperate with me; in the end I decided to assume a bit more good faith and never reported you at all. Also please stop with the stalking accusations. It isn't really helping this incident in any way, and it's clear that I'm trying to fix up the articles and not purposely disrupt it (which you did do to me several times). GraYoshi2x►talk 03:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You see what I mean? Intractable. I thought I posted the most extreme, threatening and aggressive postings he'd ever received, when I was trying (thanklessly) to help him. I kinda feel bad being upstaged. This guy likes superlative adjectives way too much. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:06, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't have believed it until I saw it for myself. Badagnani is edit-warring over the formatting of my comments: [35] [36] --Ronz (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Badagnani's block log. Representative interactions. Badagnani's RfC. I have no idea whether GraYoshi2x is "stalking" Badagnani. I do know that anyone who insists as Badagnani does on escalating and personalizing every editing dispute, no matter how minor, will inevitably leave a trail of frustrated editors. I see that Badagnani is on best noticeboard behavior: all he ever wanted was civil, collaborative editing and discussion. But that doesn't jibe with his record. I mean, this is someone who's exhausted the patience of GTBacchus, which may be a first. This is someone who has never seen an issue too minor to edit-war over. GraYoshi2x should disengage and leave Badagnani alone. Badagnani should stop being a chronic headache for everyone who crosses his path on Wikipedia. Sound fair? MastCell Talk 18:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


  • Comment: I do agree that Badagnani seems to be being stalked by a few users from WP:EL who leave pointers to the RfC everywhere, and who prefer to revert his edits - rather than offer advice and assistance and encouragement. I agree that Badagnani's style of replying to talkpage threads is not the usual anglo-western one. I would guess that perhaps he is a foreign (possibly Hungarian) and/or older individual, who is simply perplexed by the youngsters involved above who are badgering him and mocking/dissecting his language. If that were the case with me, I might use "superlative adjectives way too much" too. He needs a mentor, not a block. (If I had time I would volunteer). Some of the people badgering him could really use civility and friendliness lessons. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Mentoring an editor with long-term problems is a major commitment of time and effort, and results have been extremely disappointing in the long run. You're volunteering someone else to take on this thankless role. Let's assume we all value our time as highly as you do, and don't wish to spend it mentoring Badagnani. How do you propose we proceed? You also suggest that Badagnani's difficulties are reactive and caused by "youngsters" badgering him. I don't see that; it seems that he's quite often the aggressor, or at least an aggressor, in many of the disputes in which he's involved. MastCell Talk 21:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
      (after ec w/ MastCell) Quiddity, thanks for this. I like the angle you're taking here. Anyone attempting this might want to learn from my errors. I tried to mentor Badagnani, and it failed rather spectacularly. I tried to convince him to let me edit with him, and by working through content disputes, get to the bottom of the troublesome behavior. He basically shouted at me how to do my job. There was nothing acceptable to him short of having his "assailants" punished and his edits protected, and the fact that I wouldn't jump at his command meant I didn't care about our policies.

      I accept that I must have bungled our interaction from the start, but he really is among the most combative and difficult editors I've ever worked with here, and I tend to work with combative and difficult editors. If anyone can get through to this editor, I'll be delighted, and I'll study how they did it, but... I couldn't get past the refusal to allow any contribution of his to be changed without his prior approval. We can't work like that here. What are we supposed to do, change everything because he's coming from a different cultural perspective?

      My very first direct interaction with Badagnani preceded all of this by a month or so, and related to cultural differences. He was edit warring at Dog meat, over a probable copyvio YouTube link. He was attacking other editors as biased "Korean nationalists". Here:

      • [37] I leave what I think is a reasonably worded message, including an offer to help work out the policy question, and giving a somewhat stern warning that we don't talk about each others' ethnicities.
      • [38] He replies by thanking me for the message, telling me I'm simply wrong to question the permissibility of a YouTube link that's a pretty clear copyvio, and reaffirming that we need to stop the "Korean nationalists".
      • [39] I reply more sternly that, no, we really don't talk about people this way, and doing so will earn a block.
      • [40] He removes my post as "highly threatening", and asks me in the edit summary if I'm new, don't I know that we make racist generalizations all the time?
      • [41] I tell him I'm not new; I've been an admin for three years, and personal attacks are not on.
      Then he gets really quiet, and that's the end of the interaction. In what culture is that cool? Never mind that; what could I have done better? Do I tolerate racism, edit warring and disregard for copyright, because he might be old and Hungarian? How do you mentor this guy? It's very easy for you to say that "someone should" do it, that you would "if you had time". Anyone willing and able to take this guy on as a project, you have my highest esteem. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment - GTB, reading over this mess, I commend you for the patience that you've had interacting with this user. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 21:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Badagnani needs to learn when to stop replying to certain talkpage threads, and to just edit articles, and he needs to reread a few core guidelines and use less adjectives (less emotional language) and to write politically-correctly when in public. But when he's being pursued by nigh relentless and adversarial editors, it's hard to step in and give advice without seeming similarly dictatorial. I haven't formally mentored anyone before, and wouldn't claim to be a good mediator - I wouldn't know where to begin. In the end it's a partly just difference of wikiphilosophy, with a few problematic habits thrown in. It's a dispute between 4 or 5 immediatists who know how to wikilawyer, and a lone (I'd say curmudgeonly (some of my best friends in RL are curmudgeons)) eventualist. Eventualism got Wikipedia to where it is today, so I'm inclined to try to assist him, and at least attempt to see things from (what I imagine is) his point of view. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, it seems that your suggestion is that some unidentified person, with inexhaustible patience and cultural sensitivity, should help this guy out. In my experience, these editors who are "relentless and adversarial" are people I've found to be at least somewhat receptive to communication. Badagnani is by far the most unapproachable person involved.

Unless you can say where this amazing mentor is going to come from, I don't see that you're suggesting anything practical. Do you expect someone to punish those who have been, in good faith, cleaning up after Badagnani, when he inserts sources that are obviously spammy, if not downright illegal? Or do you expect someone to come in with such clear vision that they see him as innocent, and his tormentors as guilty, and are able to defend this view? Where is this mediator, and why is it only clear to two or three people that Badagnani is the victim? How could I, for example, have given him more of a chance?

Speaking as someone who regularly puts his money where his mouth is, I'm extremely unimpressed with your suggestions. Back it up, or... why should we listen? What of value are you contributing? I don't mean to sound insulting, but... what are you realistically suggesting?

If you're his friend, convince him to change his style. Otherwise, I don't believe that this hero who will do so really exists. Nobody is as lost as he who will not accept directions. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, Quiddity... how can you call someone an eventualist when they officiously insist that their edits must be left in the article as a precondition to even discussing them? Do you know what "eventualism" is? What's "eventualist" about insisting that a copyvio link stay in an article now, for fear that our readers might not know today how barbaric the Koreans are, for example? Who are you even talking about? Badagnani is the opposite of an eventualist if I've ever seen one. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I'm possibly being a devil's advocate for the wrong horse. I've glanced through a few of the disputes and archives and the RfC and he has made some definite blunders. I wouldnt want to defend his actions one by one. You, GTBacchus, definitely made a good attempt to mentor/guide him, and I'm sorry it didn't work.
I'm not his friend, and he might be irredeemable. I'm just tired of seeing small handfuls of people bring massive amounts of coordinated grief onto a variety of editors (usually academics or foreigners) who don't know how to handle their immediatist attitudes, or their stubborn bad faith regarding almost any external links. I've seen links to university archives removed, just because "the wrong person" added them!
Regarding Eventualism: "In stark contrast to an exclusionist, an eventualist has no objection to large chunks of unwikified text and trusts that, eventually, someone will fix this, where an immediatist or exclusionist would be concerned that they will reduce the perceived professionalism of Wikipedia." -- Quiddity (talk) 06:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, the only two situations I've been following closely are at the following threads, where Badagnani seems to be acting completely appropriately, but the other editors are making things painfully difficult for myself and the two admins trying to slowly rescue the lists: List of gamelan ensembles in the United States (and its associated: talk, AFD, RS/N) and List of liqueurs (talk, WT:RS, RS/N). -- Quiddity (talk) 08:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
List of liqueurs? Really? This discussion is from over almost a year ago and demonstrates the exact same inability to work with others that is documented in Badagnani's RfC/U. He continues the same exact behavior once again in List of liqueurs when I confront him for the very same problems identified in the Redlinks discussion. He continues the same exact behavior in List of gamelan ensembles in the United States. This is not "acting completely appropriately." This is tendentious editing with disregard for most Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --Ronz (talk) 18:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
1) June 2008 is not "over a year ago". 10 months admittedly, but exaggerating doesn't help. 2) You and GraYoshi2x erase all links and demand someone else check them for you, whereas we request that you collaborate on checking and verifying links. I think he has been quite polite given your dictatorial/angry-cop attitude. Each time he requests that you collaborate, you ignore him or point out the RfC: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47]. But again, I'm only familiar with these 2 situations. I'll try to look through some other page histories when I have time tonight. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Ronz, the note at my talkpage is much appreciated. I have replied at length there, with some thoughts that are relevant to this whole thread (hence a pointer from here). -- Quiddity (talk) 00:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
(<-- Outdenting) Ok, Quiddity, here's the most generous reading I think I can give you. (What I'm about to say is not necessarily what I believe.)

Badagnani is an eventualist, with cultural differences and a generation gap working against him; fine. He has been unfairly harangued, harassed, stalked and mocked, by a group of bad-faith editors who won't let him be; fine. He's become so frustrated with this campaign of torment that he's closed off to trusting or accepting help from anyone else around here; clearly. So.... what do we do? We need a practical solution that we can actually implement.

One option is to tell Badagnani that he's right, warn and block his opponents, and give him a barnstar and a cookie. Another option is to put Badagnani on some kind of behavior parole, get Clark Kent or Job or someone to mentor him (if he'll accept it), and then block him if he can't respect our community norms.

The problem with the first option is that I don't think it can last. If we bump off Ronz, and Caspianblue, and Wikidemon (and who else?), unless we can also effect a profound change in the way Badagnani interacts, then more Wikipedians will just fill the shoes of these unreasonable tormentors. We could go 12 rounds like this, and eventually, we might realize that if 40 people are unreasonable and 1 person is reasonable... then it's actually the other way around. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget harried! There's a lot of hyperbole there, which I'm happy to read between the lines of, and mostly agree with. If Badagnani has stopped adding things like flickr as sources, then it's mostly a personality conflict, and we cannot change people' character, but we should be making more of an effort to be adaptive and diplomatic and patient with foreigners and academics and oldsters. He's started ~1300 articles in the 4 years he's been editing, and from random clicking through the list on his userpage, most of them are damned good stubs, or better.
More later, offline commitments call... -- Quiddity (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah... I agree that we should be more diplomatic and patient when dealing with foreigners and academics and oldsters. In this particular case, I don't know what that would look like. Maybe it's just a matter of stopping the... "harriers"? While we have clear documentation of Badagnani's problematic behavior, I haven't seen nearly as much about these "ruffians," "rakes," and/or "rude-boys".

I have advised Ronz, since before this current round of business began, that his leaving warnings on Badagnani's talk page is foolhardy. He disagrees. He says (ignoring a fairly stong consensus) that DTTR is wrong, and that we should deal with problem behavior consistently and officially, by using warnings to document problems. He's wrong about this, and his warnings do lead directly and predictably to escalation, and help undermine attempts at dispute resolution. He should stop templating the regulars, unless his goal is to create unnecessary heat; problems document themselves, without warnings that tend to aggravate things.

That's the worst I've seen though, which isn't much compared with the worst I've seen from Mr. B. I have previously asked another editor who defended Badagnani to post positive comments at the RfC, but he has so far declined to do so. If those who support Badagnani really want to help, the best thing you can do is to document situations where non-spammy, not-illegal contributions of Badagnani's are being lost through the actions of others. This would be good for the community to see. Show us. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

A couple of examples from the last few days: [48] (gratuitous rudeness), [49] (the superscript photo-links are bad, but the wiktionary links are useful), and the senseless antagonism over an embedded-list of mostly blue links at Rice noodles.
Badagnani has some occasionally odd sourcing habits (although a few of these get into the gray area of "whether an imperfect source is better than no source, or not"), and he seems to like adding hidden comments for future reference (which irk some people but are mostly harmless). He strongly reminds me of a few of our older, prolific editors (eg fabartus), who are offended by the people who "make a waste of their time spent editing" by simply deleting or reverting edits.
I'd have to dig back months to find a time before he was being harassed. He certainly is vilified though, eh! Most of the disputes I've run across so far have been fairly normal Wikipedia activity, eg. the page history of Gurney Norman - each participant has a point of view on what should be included and how, and eventually they work out a compromise.
He might be doing far worse things that I haven't seen yet. What is the worst he has been doing, aside from inarticulately pointing out that someone might have a patriotic-bias in regards to dog meat? -- Quiddity (talk) 23:35, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's ignoring copyright law, in that particular case. The suggestion that a necessity for permission might outweigh the need to have the link in the article was, I think, quite reasonably presented. He rejected it out of hand, and refused to consider that he might be wrong. He ridiculed the idea that we should care about copyright, and emphasized the absolute necessity of using that particular link, citing our responsibility to our readers to provide the best information, regardless of legality. That's worse than inarticulateness. It's not an "odd sourcing habit"; it's a crime.

That's also the general pattern: there's an utter refusal to acknowledge that there might possibly be a reading of policy other than his. I tried to ask him in so many ways, "how can we tell whether X or Y is more important?," and he utterly refused to engage in any discussion, other than to tell me that I'm mistaken, and then to personally attack me for failing to block the other guys. That's worse than inarticulateness.

If you can show me a situation where Badagnani has accepted any kind of criticism as anything other than a personal attack, I'll give you $10. Where do you draw the line between "cantankerous" and "intractable"? Refusing to accept than one can possibly be wrong is worse than "inarticulateness". In a collaborative environment, it's utterly unacceptable. Do you disagree? How do we work with this?

Oh, another thing. If you're willing to write in his defense here, why aren't you willing to go to his RfC and leave a positive comment? You're not the only person who supports him here and there, by complaining that others should somehow improve, but that you're "too busy". Each of these people has failed to support him there. Why? It wouldn't cost you anything, and it would probably mean a lot to him. Maybe those things would look less like witch-hunts if people would go ahead and bring some positivity to the table. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

He was advocating linking to a korean television news clip [50], that an anon had uploaded to youtube. He seemed to be claiming that no other available source provided the insight of that clip(?). I don't think he said it specifically, but I believe he was thinking that such use constitutes "fair use" (an intrinsically subjective set of criteria, that I think this instance is neither close nor far from passing). I searched a few archives for this yesterday, and saw that there is generally a lack of consensus, though some people advocate more self-protective paranoia than others (or are more opposed to external links, or more opposed to skirting potential legal boundaries): Wikipedia_talk:External_links/YouTube and Wikipedia_talk:External_links/YouTube_2. However, I don't think that could be characterized as advocating a "crime" at all (which is a fairly heavy accusation). The clip is not particularly useful (imho) because it is not in English, but pictures do speak a thousand internationally-understood words...
As for whether or not he accepts criticism, I haven't met many people here who were particularly good at giving constructive criticism - lot's of people who think they are, and the majority of people in the world think they are good drivers... I don't claim to be good at either one of those.
I will ask him if he can find any instances. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The point is that it at least ought to be possible to have the conversation about whether the link is appropriate. Badagnani's position is that it is obviously so, and that any objection to that is obviously based on a mistaken reading. If we can't even have a conversation about it, how can we collaborate? -GTBacchus(talk) 22:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - The accusation that I am a criminal is outrageous and I ask that it be withdrawn immediately. Such an accusation of one of our project's most productive and sincere editors is simply not something befitting the status of administrator, as our administrators must adhere to a higher standard than that (as well as uphold our policies, which the above admin has stated that he categorically will not do). The use of File:Brain freeze-01.jpg is not illegal, and, as I mentioned at the discussion page of Ice-cream headache, I have been in correspondence with the photographer, who had no problem with its use as an illustration of an ice-cream headache at the Ice-cream headache article. Badagnani (talk) 07:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
    Not the item at issue, see my reply above. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
    Badagnani, I don't think you commit any crime intentionally. I think you fail to appreciate that other editors' legal concerns are legitimate. I think that adding that link is illegal, because of copyright, and I think that you, acting in 100% complete good faith, fail to appreciate that. I did not call you a criminal, and I never will call you that. You are