Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive539

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Legal Methods (Strauss) content removed by me under copyvio concern[edit]

The creator of this article has essentially created a chapter outline form the book. I removed that as it looks to me like a derivative work that would not be acceptable under Wikipedia:Copyright violations as not being releasable under the GFDL. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 20:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced changes to population figures[edit]


There may not be anything wrong, but this needs some eyes and I'm about to go offline. Special:Contributions/ has gone through and made unsourced changes to population and changed the census information in a number of articles over the last few days. S/he may be right, or it may be vandalism, I'm not certain. Putting it here because it needs some eyes that I don't have the time to give right now. If these are good changes, great. If they're bad, they may need to be addressed. Thanks to whoever has a few moments. StarM 12:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

A quick sample check shows that the figures being changed are supported by the official websites linked in the infoboxes, so I doubt there's a problem. Rodhullandemu 12:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
There's a problem with IPs changing numbers without making an edit summary. A lot of times it will be stealth vandalism. Dougweller (talk) 12:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The worst kind, IMO. Perhaps I'll drop a note on the IP's talk page. Rodhullandemu 12:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all, calling this resolved now StarM 22:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

IP editor threatening a cyberworm[edit]

Resolved: Unsurprisingly, the sky has failed to fall. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I guess we're all doomed then, 'cos it's gone already. I'm gonna sing the Doom song now. Doom doom doom doo-doom doom.... SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 18:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you're off key just a tad, Sheffield. KillerChihuahua?!? 18:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The old Dragnet theme would seem to fit: Doom-da-doom-doom. Doom-da-doom-doom-DOOOOM. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Great, now the Dragnet theme is stuck in my head. :) - NeutralHomerTalk • 19:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The story you have just seen is verifiably true. The user ID's have been changed to protect the guilty. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Click the link I posted above. Make sure you watch the entire thing. Problem solved! Meanwhile... no other vandalism from this IP, and no DOOM as yet either. So that's good. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
However, he may have gone back in time and irrevocably changed the future, and we would never know it. Hey, it worked in Star Trek. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Block request Can the IP be reblocked? Its last block was for three months in February. Enigmamsg 19:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Blocked. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The IP comes back to the Clover Garden School; presumably a wee bunny rabbit will unleash the apocalypse. Acroterion (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Better that than the Sta-Puft Marshmallow man. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Series of possible hoaxes[edit]

A while ago, before I started editing here, there was a series of hoax articles concerning one Vitus Barbaro, amid claims that he came from a noble Italian family and was involved in a wide variety of activities. A partial list of the articles involved can be found at User:Barneca/watch/Barbaro. There was a great deal of sockpuppeteering and AfD, ANI and Talk page discussion in which the various perpetrators continued to claim that everything they had written was true. The various socks came from the Chicago, Illinois area, in particular Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois). There is now a similar series of articles: Battle of Lemos, Don Manuel Joseph Martín López de Prado Rodríguez Díaz de Armesto y Varela, X Baron of Lemavia and House of Lemavia. All of the edits to these articles are by new accounts with no edit history. Perhaps not so surprisingly, when I did a search on Google for "Baron of Lemavia", I found a link to "Lopez De Prado, Baron of Lemavia Location: Chicago, IL". None of the multitude of references that the various editors have provided mentions a Baron of Lemavia or a Lopez de Prado. They keep referencing books which, may, in fact, prove that their claims are true, but which nobody is going to be able to find. None of the various wesites they cite actually supports the claims, and in general, when they cite a website, it's to a main page, not to a particular page which supports the contentions. Now, I may be way out of line here, and these may in fact be valid articles, but it reads a lot like the Barbaro hoaxes which I found fascinating back when they were being fought. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I found one more: Order of León-Sable. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Who then was a gentleman?, I'm sorry to hear about User:Barneca/watch/Barbaro. As bad as an experience it may have been, this doesn't make other people guilty. First you accused me of being from Chicago, and I have proven you wrong (follow my IP address). Second, you said there were no references to these battles, and I proved you wrong again sending you the article of Dr. Brian De Toy. Third, you asked for a website (as if websites were the only acceptable source in Wikipedia), and I even sent you a link extracted from a history book fully dedicated to the "Batalla de Monforte de Lemos" ( Fourth, you said this was a hoax, and I pointed out websites citing the list of people killed that day ( Fifth, you started to nominate a whole bunch of articles for deletion without reading any source. Sixth, every time I prove you wrong, you keep shooting in the dark for the next "nice try". Please, I understand where you are coming from, but as a new contributor I find hard to believe ONLY VETERAN CONTRIBUTORS CAN WRITE? This would be the end of Wikipedia.

A hoax? This link comes straight from the Ministry of Culture of Spain. These are protocols of nobility about the House of Lopez de Prado, another article you nominated for deletion without ever reading it:

I hope this answers all your questions and we can keep working together. (Qqtacpn (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC))

I never said you were from Chicago, I said a Google source shows that someone claiming to be Baron of Lemavia is from Chicago. Are you now claiming to be Baron of Lemavia? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
1-Your link to is dead, and 2- a search for "Lopez de Prado" comes up with lists of archives, not articles. None of the lists can prove your claims. 3- appears to be a social networking site, and therefore not a reliable source. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
And that brings me to another question: How did you, Niaps (talk · contribs) and Primadodelemavia (talk · contribs) happen to decide to come to Wikipedia and edit the same group of articles at the same time? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 08:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Some more fuel here: User:Qqtacpn, User:Niaps, User:Primadodelemavia, User:, all have been editing the same closely related articles as pointed out above, no prior history apart from a few edits on the IP, User:Qqtacpn, User:Niaps, and the IP are also involved in articles related to Napoleon (Talk:The Crime of Napoleon, Napoleon I of France, Talk:Peninsular War, First French Empire, Talk:Napoleonic Wars, Arc de Triomphe) where they are fixated on painting Napoleon as a genocidal maniac of the caliber of Hitler and on the claim about a "murder" of a thousand of Spanish civilians during the Peninsula War, in connection with the articles currently under AfD. I am not familiar with the Barbaro hoaxes, I wouldn't think this is related though, this here looks to me like it's a case of original research by someone obsessed about that Don Manuel bloke and events surrounding his death. Equendil Talk 08:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Qqtacpn (talk · contribs) identifies himself on Talk:House of Lemavia as the author of the lemavia website. Mathsci (talk) 09:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
There are also these edits on es.wikipedia [1], who edits here with the same IP (talk · contribs) and seems also to be connected to the author of the website. Qqtacpn (talk · contribs) made this edit on en.wikipedia [2], an exact translation of what was added to the corresponding article on es.wikipedia [3] by the IP. Mathsci(talk) 10:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I have answered all your questions for hours. You have made very offensive accusations based on:

  • 1) Your inability to read Spanish.
  • 2) Your lack of insterest for sources published in paper. You only accept websites as sources.
  • 3) You are not interested to search the websites of the Spanish Goverment I have provided (search "lopez de prado", between quotes, at
  • 4) The fact that my area of expertise (War crimes commited in Galicia during the Peninsular Wars) has offended a group of French Wikipedians (Equendil, Frania W., etc.).
  • 5) Ridiculous suppositions (do I live in Chicago? Are these 5 users in the same Continent? Why are they interested in similar topics?)
  • 6) Discrimination based on being a new contributor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qqtacpn (talkcontribs) 11:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyone with access to this Encyclopedia (, available at the Library of Congress and everywhere in the Spanish Speaking World, please go to Volume 72, pages 101-120. Or go to the, also available in the Library of Congress, and search the article dedicated to Lopez de Prado. These are but a few more proofs that these individuals are making false accusations. I do not doubt your intention is right, but the conclusion here is that a very small number of Wikipedians ignorant of well published research actually have the power to remove legitimate content. Fine, if this is how flawed Wikipedia is, please go ahead and remove these articles. They belong to the paper encyclopedias available in the Library of Congress. End of discussion. (Qqtacpn (talk) 11:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC))

I took up Qqtacpn’s request to search the Spanish Archives portal using the given query. It turned up several individuals named, in part, “López de Prado” or “de Prado”, but none with the name he has supplied as the X Baron of Lemavia, Don Manuel Joseph Martín López de Prado. Furthermore, “Lemavia” produces zero hits on that site – not even the page that Qqtacpn provided a link to originally – and which doesn’t mention Lemavia (as other than a search term). Googling “Lemavia” turns up an interesting entry: Dr. Lopez De Prado, Baron of Lemavia, has an wishlist! This suggests we might have some COI issues here (and who knows, possibly BLP as well). Askari Mark (Talk) 04:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat[edit]

This seems to be a legal threat [4] [5]. Mathsci (talk) 11:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocked. I have not reviewed the rest of this thread, but that is a clear threat worthy of a block, regardless of any other actions. J Milburn (talk) 12:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Username redirect[edit]

User talk:WikiProjectSpain redirects to User talk:Qqtacpn. Two points here. Is WikiProjectSpain and acceptable username, and surely a redirect is an admission of sockpuppetry? I don't know exactly, but I feel it's relevant to this discussion. WikiProjectSpain on Commons has uploaded images relevant to this, with 'own work' as copyright descriptions, which would make him a very good artist, and therefore worth asking where he got his source from. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 12:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

  • There seem to be multiple problems with this user. He has uploaded some copyrighted images onto wikimdedia commons claiming them as his own work. Here for example is a book cover by the living illustrator Richard Hook [6], a detail from one of the plates inside the 2004 book Spanish Guerillas in the Peninsular War by René Chartrand, which corresponds to this wikipedia image [7] (now deleted on commons [8]). Mathsci (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Jarry1250, if you go and read the history, you'll find that the redirect is part of an account renaming, by EVula, that took place precisely because the username wasn't appropriate. The redirect isn't an "admission" of anything. MediaWiki creates it automatically when a bureaucrat renames an account. Uncle G (talk) 00:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Ah, that would explain it. Sorry, my mistake. The account remained active on commons, but that's being dealt with. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 09:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Another sock?[edit]

Irmandino (talk · contribs), whose first edit is to Irmandiño, an article created by User:Qqtacpn. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

There was no hoax - Please set the record straight[edit]

Askari Mark, thank you for verifying the sources. Let me clarify a few of your comments:

  • 1) You have found about 10 people from the House of Lopez de Prado in the Royal Archives, who are listed as noblemen. Well, this debunks those accusations of hoax.
  • 2) As you may know, the Sala de Hijosdalgos only deals with noblemen who want to be inscribed as such in another location, normally when they move from a distant land. Since Don Manuel Joseph Martín López de Prado never changed residence, he didn't need to appeal to the Sala de Hijosdalgos.
  • 3) You have also found mentioned Don Andres Lopez de Prado, listed as Knight of the Order of Carlos III at the Royal Archives. As you probably know, this is the equivalent in Spain to the British Order of the Bath. Most of its members are Grandees, the highest nobility in Spain. Again, the claims of hoax are ridiculous.
  • 4) I have provided numerous certified transcripts at, where you can find Barons of Lemavia being addressed as such.
  • 5) Dr. Lopez de Prado has never been mentioned in any of the articles. The claim of possible COI, BLP also falls apart.

In summary, accusations of hoax have been proven wrong, and they MUST be withdrawn. For example, should be removed. Besides, these articles were deleted by my own request (G7), and I do not want them re-published. Please read User_talk:Qqtacpn#Accusations_of_hoax_must_be_withdrawn.

People who made those accusations never took the time to verify the sources. I want to end thanking Askari Mark for taking the time. Thanks. (Qqtacpn (talk) 17:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC))

As someone who's spent a lot of time on the Barbaro hoaxers, this sure does smell pretty similar, right down to insisting that all mention of the hoax be whitewashed from the record - presumably so it can be shoved our way in a few months' time. This bunch, like the last, seems determined to test our reliable sources guidelines to the extreme by editing their bizarre stories into other web sites, then trying to cite them here. Keep these on your watchlists, all. (ESkog)(Talk) 18:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

ESkog, your comment is unworthy of Wikipedia. You have failed to proof your accusation of hoax, now it is time to repair the damage. Again, these articles were deleted at my own request, I do not wish them re-published, and I have stated I'll abandon Wikipedia as soon as you recognize your error. It is called fairness and presumption of innocence. Show to the public that you know how to amend your mistakes. The alternative is public embarrassment from academics and historians who know about these facts and do not have Wikipedia's approach in high regard. Set the record straight, and you will regain my respect. (Qqtacpn (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC))

The record seems pretty straight, and I don't seek the respect of those who come here to play games with us. I have better things to do than continue this latest in a long line of pointless conversations, so you'll forgive me if this is the last you hear on the matter. (ESkog)(Talk) 03:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Qqtacpn if you actually read what Askari Mark, you will see that he as well as other editors have set the record straight - by showing that sources do not back up your claims. I also find it disingenious when you claim the articles were deleted at your request, since you made no such request until some of your articles had already been speedy deleted as hoaxes and the others were well on their way to being deleted as hoaxes in Afd. Edward321 (talk) 23:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Edward321, you have accused me of a hoax without providing a proof. Askari Mark went to the database I provided, and he found that the House of Lopez de Prado exists and is a member of the nobility. Please acknowledge your assessment was wrong, as a matter of fairness. Thanks (Qqtacpn (talk) 00:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)).

Askari Mark already provided the proof that your claims are false. Your own sources don't mention the House of Lopez de Prado, nor the Baron of Lemavia, nor anything about any of the several articles that were created by you and rightly and properly deleted as hoaxes. Edward321 (talk) 00:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Edward321, once again you are intentionally making false statements rather than admitting your mistake. For the last time:

Administrators, this is our last attempt to try to solve amicably this dispute. If this is not resolved within the next few hours, the Society of Lemavia will present an official complaint to Mr. James Wales in the form of a public letter sent to the media. No legal actions will be taken, however the names of the administrators who promoted these false accusations will be listed. A number of University professors, some members of the Society, will support this letter of complaint. I sincerely hope you prevent this measure by immediately rebuking those users who made accusations of hoax. Thanks. (Qqtacpn (talk) 03:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC))

I strongly suggest you withdraw the threat in the previous paragraph. It may not be a legal threat, but it is a threat none-the-less of off-wiki action to be taken against editors with whom you are in conflict. And it is simply not acceptable on the project to use threats of any sort to attempt to bully others into doing what you want done. So please retract the threat from here and from your talk page. - TexasAndroid (talk) 04:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, Qqtacpn, Edward321’s reading of my findings is closer to being correct. My findings did not show that your articles are a hoax, but neither did they prove that they were not. As I stated, I found entries on a number of individuals holding the name “López de Prado” – not all of whom were nobles, by the way – including Don Andrés López de Prado, who holds the merits you described – and this indeed shows that a Sala López de Prado has existed. However, I was trying to confirm on your behalf whether the subject of the articles which have been called hoaxes truly existed in the sources you provided; unfortunately, I found no mention of Don Manuel Joseph Martín López de Prado Rodríguez Díaz de Armesto y Varela, X Baron of Lemavia, who is the main subject of one of your articles. Demonstrating that the one exists does not prove the existence of the other. (Also, the search returns were not just from the Sala de Hijosdalgos; judicial and other records were presented as well.)
In short, I can find no proof one way or the other whether these articles are legitimate or hoaxes. In fact, the lack of reliable sources begs the question of whether some of these subjects are sufficiently notable to have articles of their own. As for the potentiality for COI, if you are this living Dr. Lopez de Prado, Baron of Lemavia – and I am in no wise trying to “out” you – and you are writing about a distinguished ancestry, then yes, there could be COI (and there are easy ways to work around that). I have examined a few (not all) of your recent links; they are what are called “primary sources” and you need to be aware that for Wikipedia’s purposes, independent, third-party secondary sources are preferred. If you will read about Wikipedia’s guidelines on primary, secondary and tertiary sources, you may better understand why this is so. Regards, Askari Mark (Talk) 04:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Askari Mark, we may not agree, but I respect that you bring your arguments to the table. At least you have taken the time to check some of the sources (maybe the problem is, I gave too many?). We have also provided encyclopedia articles, which are not primary sources. I can send you more encyclopedia articles on this family if you give me an e-mail address. From your comments, I also deduce that you are not familiar with this topic. Is there anyone with a Ph.D. or M.Sc. in Medieval Spain who can settle this for good? No disrespect (particularly to you), but I feel like trying to explain basic stuff to a number of all-wise high school kids who cannot even read Spanish. (Qqtacpn (talk) 16:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)).

(note that an encyclopedia is a tertiary source, not a secondary one. that's why we don't cite Britannica directly unless we have to, other sources are preferred).

Good point. However, we do no longer want these articles published in Wikipedia. Those contributors who have called these articles a hoax should read those encyclopedias and acknowledge they made a mistake. But the problem is, they have called it a hoax without being able to read Spanish or having any expertise on this subject. Is this always the case in Wikipedia? (Qqtacpn (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC))

Why isn't this at the Spanish wikipedia[edit]

I searched the spanish wikipedia and I couldn't find any mentions of either the house of Lemavia[9] or the relevant López de Prado person [10]. I could only find "Sánchez-Prado", who is neither the correct person nor a noble.

I'd suggest the creator to head to the Spanish wikipedia and write an article there about the House of Lemavia, in a place where all editors can read the sources, and then translate it here if it gets accepted as an existing house. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Enric Naval, I appreciate this question. We started with the English Wikipedia version because Spanish encyclopedias, Genealogy books, publications of the Asociacion de Hidalgos ( have studied this family extensively. We (incorrectly) assumed Wikipedia editors would be able to read Spanish (our mistake). People at the Society have these articles translated in German, French, Portuguese and of course Spanish. But at this point, we are no longer interested in publishing in Wikipedia. We simply want those administrators who called these articles a hoax to withdraw their accusation.

Could you please explain the meaning of these sources I provided to those people who are calling it a hoax? Although they cannot read Spanish, they do not refrain from throwing accusations. Thanks. (Qqtacpn (talk) 18:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC))

Obviously not or the Spanish Wiki would have articles. That wasn't even a plausible explanation, nor a very artful dodge.Heironymous Rowe (talk) 21:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I see, that's why you were so keen to reach a premature conclusion of hoax. I understand it and excuse it as such. It's probably our fault in part as well, we expected too much from English Wikipedia. (Qqtacpn (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)).

An expert I am not, but I do know enough to understand what I read and to search for facts – especially reviewing the evidence someone presents for their point. In a way, yes, you did offer too many sources – most particularly those which did not directly provide proof that the specific articles claimed to be possible hoaxes – Battle of Lemos; Don Manuel Joseph Martín López de Prado Rodríguez Díaz de Armesto y Varela, X Baron of Lemavia; House of Lemavia; and Order of León-Sable – are indeed historical events, people and entities. After wading through a number of your links, I was able to confirm (from a primary source) that Don Andrés López de Prado was a historical figure and a noble, which confirmed that there was an historical Sala López de Prado – but there are no articles on these that are being called hoaxes. Unfortunately, none of your links that I’ve gone through provide any evidence one way or the other that Don Manuel or the House of Lemavia exist. (I have not searched for the others.)
This does not serve your cause well because one characteristic of hoaxers is that when asked for sources, they tend to provide lots of sources which don’t prove their point. That is why so many editors here remain hostile and unconvinced of the authenticity of your work. Nor are they likely to be convinced by your photo gallery of certified documents regarding information in primary sources; unfortunately, as I have personally encountered, there are hoaxers who convincingly forge such material. Indeed, these problems lie at the heart of why Wikipedia discourages the use of primary sources. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia anybody can edit, nobody is required to be an expert to write on a topic (nor, on English Wikipedia, fluent in a foreign language). Thus Wikipedia encourages the use of reliable secondary sources written by experts who do have full command of the relevant primary sources – knowing which ones are or are not fully accurate or are biased.
Enric Naval’s suggestion of starting on Spanish Wikipedia is a good one. If your work satisfies the editors there, it’s much more likely to be accepted here, since those editors have fluent command of the language in which most relevant sources are written – along with readier physical access to them for verification, if need be. I do not know an expert on medieval Spain, but I would recommend that you post relevant queries at the Military History Wikiproject – particularly at their Napoleonic era task force and Spanish military history task force – and Wikiproject Spain. Regards, Askari Mark (Talk) 02:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Apologies accepted[edit]

Any other of the offenders wishes to retract and receive a nice bottle of the best Spanish red wine in reward? Just read, confirm you withdraw your accusation of hoax, and on my honor of a Spanish hidalgo, you will receive a bottle of the best Rioja within 2 weeks. (Qqtacpn (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)).

Not a single person has apologized to. Just stop.— dαlus Contribs 05:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

HAGGER vandalism again[edit]

Resolved: Blocked as VOA. –xeno talk 20:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Rubeus HagridHAGGER? — Capitalization, formatting etc. — Ymreh lol (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted it and not obeyed it. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Heh, looks like someones getting desperate--Jac16888Talk 20:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
As with another user I recently declined to unblock, note the ananym of the username. Desperate, indeed. I wonder if there's a way for the abuse filter to look for these. —Travistalk 22:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Maybe, but why bother? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Grawp? Desperate? It seems we have reached our pinnacle, everyone. Congrats all around!— dαlus Contribs 06:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I have the champagne! -Jeremy (v^_^v Cardmaker) 06:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
*Toasts with a bottle of Virgil's Rootbeer*— dαlus Contribs 06:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
*Toasts with goblin thudrud* -Jeremy (v^_^v Cardmaker) 06:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Legal Threat[edit]

Hey everyone, I have been on wiki-break for about a month now and I was just coming back from my break and I noticed this legal threat on my talk page here, being that I have never had a legal threat made against me before, and with my knowledge of WP:LEGAL I am reporting it here for an admin to review, From what I can see and the way he said "So let me use the trigger phrases" before his legal threat, it appears that this threat is only a ways to a means for this user because he wants his IP blocked anyways. Thanks and All the Best, Mifter (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You should ask him to email OTRS so that they can put a {{consent block}} in place. –xeno talk 22:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The IP has already been blocked for something else, and I removed the threat from your page as inappropriate. I recommend following xeno's suggestion. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Xeno :), I am currently typing up response to e-mail to him telling him to contact OTRS and request a {{consent block}} on his concerned IP's, I honestly had never seen the {{consent block}} template before so thanks for the help :). Thanks and All the Best, Mifter (talk)
No problem. I dug up the email address for you too: ( )xeno talk 22:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have emailed them and copied the OTRS main mailbox - as one of the OTRS people I can handle it from here. I'm not sure that this was actually from who it said it was, but we'll take it from here.
I also permanently semi-protected the school's article, as that appears to have been the single most appropriate solution to the actual underlying problem... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The unblock-enwiki email address is closed and doesn't receive emails any more; it was decided that handling block/unblock issues through OTRS was unfeasible, and all emails are now replied to with an auto-reply saying for people to contact mail:unblock-en-l. If there is something that you absolutely need to send to OTRS that is block/unblock-related (such as this), please just send it to, like George did. Regards, Daniel (talk) 23:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I had to dig this up from unblock-en-l email correspondence, and didn't realize that email address was discontinued. –xeno talk 04:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Legal threats re: deletion of article[edit]

Resolved: Blocked three months for making legal threats AFD and AFD talk page courtesy blanked. MuZemike 05:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is giving Wikipedia 30 days to restore the Holly Landers article (deleted in Feb, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holly Landers) or she will sue for slander, defamation, etc. I thought I should bring this here to ensure that an admin sees it. Dawn Bard (talk) 23:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocked 90 days per NLT, do we need to flag Godwin on this? –xeno talk 23:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Send a email to and they will take it from there. Tiptoety talk 23:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 Done, I've also {{courtesy blanked}} the AFD discussion. –xeno talk 23:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I blanked the AfD's talk page, removing the legal threat and the IP's attempt at creating a bio. If it's replaced, semi-protecting the page would be a good step. --auburnpilot talk 23:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Can I get some assistance here?[edit]

I am currently encountering someone adding in uncited information to the Actroid article, to whit, that the commercial robot was used in the final episode of BattleStar Galactica. While this is for the most part a content dispute, I am having the damnedest time pointing out to another editor that he cannot add uncited information. He seems to think he can. I've been going back and forth with this fine young gentleman, and I'm almost at the point where I ask for him to be blocked for disruptive editing. As I think he's just reacting to me (he's been following my edits around a bit over the past week), he doesn't seem to be listening to admittedly increasingly frustrated requests that he stop. Maybe someone who actually has the ability to place a bit more oomph behind their words could counsel the user on our OR and synthesis policy? I pretty much need to step away before I pick up a bat. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I gave a 3rr warning to your opponent; you should both now back off from this for your own good. You are of course right on the content issue but being right, as you well know, is no defense for edit-warring. --John (talk) 23:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I absolutely realized what was happening, which is why I backed off and sought a saner path here. I appreciate your input, John, but I wasn't just looking for a 3RR warning to be given to the guy. I just wanted him to know he was wrong, and he had long since stopped listening to me tell him why. -Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Long Term Image Abuse[edit]

On numerous occasions in the past couple months, RESKONIE has added the This TV Network logo and The CW logos to broadcast television station pages. These logos are not licensed to be placed on these pages and mass overlinkage is frowned upon. After a large blow up, The CW logo is actually only to be used on The CW page. The user has been warned multiple times about this behavior, including once today and still refuses to comply with rules and policy. Would an admin please step in? - NeutralHomerTalk • 23:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Like neutralhomer said, this has been occurring over many months. Look at the user talk page; you'll note there have been MANY personal attempts to contact the user, bring the user into the discussion, and to warn the user, as early as March 2009. Unless I've missed it, there have been absolutely no replies from the user. There was also a discussion/consensus on WikiProject: Television Stations; RESKONIE was invited to participate in that discussion via a personal message on their talk page. If you look at the history for KATU, you'll see a WP:TE pattern of additions by RESKONIE. tedder (talk) 23:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Not sure why the user replied and posted a message on my userpage. This user has been told many times to stop adding the ThisTV logo or use a higher resolution logo, but refused to participate in the many conversations about him.  єmarsee Speak up! 00:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted all uses of the image outside of the network article, and am adding a note to the image that it not be used for anything but the This TV or Weigel-related pages. Nate (chatter) 04:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


This editor has been blocked multiple times for incivility. Since the last block in February, the swearing and overly aggressive behavior continues: calling a user “illiterate”, swear-word laden ranting, this just doesn’t seem like a way to deescalate tensions, again, this seems a bit over the top, unfriendly edit summary, calling editors “shitheads”, needlessly hostile, unwillingness to discuss, use of “fuck” in edit summary, and again, unfriendly response to an apology, etc.

Now these are from this week: [11] and [12]. When I asked that he avoid such edit summaries, he replied with: [13].

Aside from the edit summaries, there's other assumptions of bad faith and the like from this week and including today. For example, he blanket accuses inclusionists of not knowing how to write an encyclopedia: [14]. Or other attacks on inclusionists: [15]. Accusing editors of gaming: [16]. Most recently, i.e. today, we have blanket repetitive assumptions of bad faith and insults against inclusionists: [17], [18], and [19]. In these same discussions, user is getting too agitated: [20], [21], etc.

These are above from this week and they are making disagreements into "inclusionists are bad" disputes from his opinion, which gets in the way of compromise and civil discourse. Given his rather considerable block log for incivility, even greater number of talk page warnings, and as he has already been the subject of ANI and Wikiquette, I don't know what next can/should be done, but such edits are fostering a battleground atmosphere as these are not the kinds of edits that invite cordial replies. There are polite and respectful ways to disagree. I tried to ask him in the one discussion to avoid some of the more imflammatory rhetoric and as I realize I am someone on the opposite spectrum of inclusion philosophy, I hope that a neutral party could do something to put a stop to the above kinds of edits, because thus far blocks, warnings, and polite requests are not working. Thank you for your time and help. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 04:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

  • This is very troubling. If editors are to feel like the rules apply to everyone, then NPA behavior like this should cease. Maybe a boot is in order, the last one was 72 hours?:
    • 05:05, 10 February 2009 Tiptoety blocked ThuranX (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours ‎ (Incivilty at User talk:Bobblehead, and User talk:Jojhutton.)
    • 19:58, 5 January 2009 Chrislk02 blocked ThuranX (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 12 hours ‎ (extreme history of incivility. NEVER an eexcuse for this [22])
    • 23:34, 21 July 2008 John Carter unblocked "ThuranX " (per comments on user's talk page)
    • 23:11, 21 July 2008 Elonka blocked ThuranX (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 3 hours ‎ (Disruptive editing: Gross incivility)
    • 17:57, 28 March 2008 Husond blocked ThuranX (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (gross incivility after being asked to refrain from such behavior)
Ikip (talk) 07:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • He certainly doesn't seemed to have learnt from the previous blocks. I support some kind of block, especially when I consider the aggressiveness I've seen him display around this place. A week, maybe? Ironholds (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I dont think a block is warrented. On the whole he seems a pretty good guy and works constructively within the project. I have looked at the full posts themselves as opposed to the "soundbites" provided and in their context they dont seem overly rude or aggressive.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    Working constructively is not a defence if he fails to show others the proper respect. How exactly can calling people shitheads not seem overly rude and aggressive? Ironholds (talk) 09:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    Like I have said, on the whole the guy is pretty civil and constructive. A block would be purely punitive IMO and help no one.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    You seem to be missing the point, and that is that "on the whole" isn't good enough. One over-the-line comment can't be justified on the grounds that he's made ten civil ones; good contributions are a basic standard, not a get out of jail free card. Ironholds (talk) 09:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    No need to be so aggresive with someone who has a different opinion than you, have a little respect for your fellow editors my friend. My I recommend some Yoga classes so you can get rid of some of that rage. Like I have said I dont think a block is warranted and if one was put in place it would be for purely punitive reasons and would be of no good to the community. He has apologised now and I think we should get on with something a lot some constructive to the project.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    I'm not being at all aggressive, although in my experience being baselessly accused of aggression and told to "go do yoga" can probably be stick on a list of Things That Tick Me Off, along with somebody who doesn't like me referring to me as friend. Where has he apologised? Ironholds (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    Why so facetious?  GARDEN  10:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

block per continuation of events  rdunnPLIB  09:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Even if it was two days ago, this aggressive reply to this seemingly innocent and civil message is enough for a block in my book.  GARDEN  09:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Is there an immediate problem that demands a block to prevent a problem? If not (and I don't see it) clearly the best course of action for an editor who is productive would be a warning that future incivility would be looked upon poorly. I don't see any point in blocking him now, and equally no admin action required (anyone can warn someone about incivility). Black Kite 11:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, as there is an esacalation in tensions in the numerous Mash episode AfDs he started that go from copy and paste replies to DGG as engaging in "inclusionist wonkery": [23], [24], and [25] to other annoyed replies as evident from edit summaries of {"tired of this crap", "ugh", etc. And these follow up on the ons about how inclusionists don't know how to write encyclopedias, create hoops to jump through, have unrealistic goals, etc. These are from up through May 14th, i.e. today. All this blanket denigration of a whole group of editors does not lead to constructive discussions for the same reasons why blanket denouncement of deletionists would get us nowhere and what I see is an increasing intensity in this regard that has been building the past few days. These are stopping points to civil discourse and for any editor's own peace of mind, when someone is getting that flustered, I would urge them to take a break anyway. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 15:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • This user is a regular on ANI and tends to inflame discussions here. This is damaging to the processes of the encyclopedia as a whole. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    • ThuranX you mean?  GARDEN  15:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Yah. And you can read the above as support for a block, as it would be preventative to Wiki as a whole to quell this behavior. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
        • I'd just like to comment that I've repeatedly seen ThuranX leap into ANI threads that he wasn't involved in, making extremely abrasive blanket statements. He is then asked to strikethrough his comments, never does, but no one pursues the matter. McJeff (talk) 20:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
          • I've largely ignored this, it's pointless. However, I should note that OR and McJeff were both on here recently for problematic behavior, and not for the first time, and I've continuously supported proper blocks against them, their input here is simple tit-for-tat. ThuranX (talk) 04:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I gave him a "cut out the nonsense" warning because frankly I don't see the massive disruptive. Yes, he's being an uncivil jerk and yes we have enough uncivil jerks here, but I don't see enough to be blockable yet. Warnable, told him to cut it out, but not blockable yet. Following his comments at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#ARSify.3F, two people basically told him his line in the sand "this is totally wrong" routine isn't consensus and isn't going to work, with basically "that was uncivil and not helpful." And that's on a page with a number of users making claims about "inclusionists" and "deletionists." Hell, the proposal uses the words "inclusionist/deletionist arguments" so to complain about his denigration of a group of people is a bit hollow to me. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

since his responses to me were mentioned above, I need to say that I have not started or joined any complain against him in connection with them, nor would I join one based on them. . DGG (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

While I can't make excuses for earlier incidents, in this case, I suspect ThuranX is getting really stressed from the issues revolving around the M*A*S*H episode discussions. I was, in fact, coming here to post a request for an admin to look into those and keep an eye on things, before seeing this thread. I feel User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s actions here should also be looked at some. He made bad faith accusations that ThuranX was showing "recentism bias" in nominating the articles.[26] and seems to be making personal attacks in several of the AfDs.[27][28]. RAN also created his own essay, Wikipedia:Generally it is not a good idea to quote personal essays as if they were Wikipedia approved policy, on May 7th and is claiming it "replaced" WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS by virtue of it being newer[29][30]. He appears to be following ThuranX to continue posting this, and refactoring his comments after he's received replies to point to it. As you can see from my talk page, ThuranX is really feeling attacked and upset by RAN's behaviors. I'd agree his temper is high, and some of his recent responses have a mild bite to them, but I do not think he should be blocked. He is a good editor and I don't see that he has really crossed the line at this point. Having RAN and other going after him seems like an attempt to get him to do so. I've urged him to walk away for a bit to calm down. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Thuran is making more bad faith accusations against editors, such as "What the hell is wrong with you?," claiming there's "a hivemind of inclusionism," which is out of line here, because I see inclusionists saying to merge in these discussions and not just repeating what each other wrote at least no more so than those saying to delete, and as far as I can tell seems to be attacking User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) for daring to argue to keep in the flood of mass nominations of Mash episode articles. Remember, this latest tension follows up on behavior over the past couple months that includes calling people "illiterate" and "shitheads" as pointed out above. After months of such insults against editors as well as swearing at them, adding to new tensions now just seems unhelpful. I am concerned that anyone would feel this flustered by editing here. It's a volunteer site. Sure, not everything goes as we'd like, but there's no need to take things too personally or to become so enraged. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
That comment on my page was left AFTER my message above. Your wording makes it sound as if he continued after that, and he did not. He has not edited at all since then. Let's make sure that is clear. He did as was suggested and walked away to calm down. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
My problem with Richard Arthur Norton, as Collectonian himself notes, is that RAN was redacting his comments after I'd replied to them, editing them to change the entire nature of the discussion, and appear to cut me off, making it look like i was disregarding or ignoring all he said. I asked him repeatedly to stop, Collectonian asked him to stop, he did not. It is quite frustrating to try to have a discussion with someone who is manipulating the entire discussion in that manner.ThuranX (talk) 04:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Sanction of some sort, his "What the hell is wrong with you?" was my first encounter with him on my page, and my family found it threatening enough, that my wife asked me to stop editing Wikipedia. I guess that is the reason to intimidate, to win with a threat what you can't convey through logic and policy. But what is the point of blocking him for three hours again? A few hours block doesn't change attitudes. He needs to agree to be civil or face tougher sanctions. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
This after you claimed he was thin-skinned? I guess its all in the perception. You feel he is attacking you, he feels you are attacking him. Guess we should just block you both? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Banish him at once The comment he left on Norton's page alone should show the character of the accused. Thinks everyone is against him, and goes on the attack most savagely. The wikipedia would have more contributions without him around harassing other editors. Dream Focus 11:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Pot and kettle...or will you extend your banishment to others who have done the same thing? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone else notice that many of the folks coming to call for ThuranX's banishment are all RAN's fellow ARS members? Perhaps we could leave the discussion to more neutral folks who are not being influenced by their dislike of "deletionists". -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Ummm, RAN is not a member of the ARS. Ikip (talk) 11:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
And anyone notice that those supporting his continued incivility are not? Wow. Actually, it does not matter what project opining editors belong to or if they do not belong to any project, as that is not germain to the issue. What is germain is this editor having been repeatedly blocked for rudeness and blatant incivility and apparently not learning anything from the incidents other than he can do what he wants, get a slap-on-the-wrist, and come back to repeat the same disruptive behaviors. THAT does not improve Wikipedia. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 16:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Who here is saying that Thuran is being awesome?! I've been tarred with the "deletionist" brush by a few editors in this thread AND I've had insults and unpleasantness thrown my way by Thuran. I don't think that what he is doing is good and very few people in this thread do. However, the fact remains that the first two posters in this thread and the majority of the folks calling for some strong sanction happen to be rank inclusionists. Honestly, this shouldn't surprise anyone. They are on the opposite side of an argument from Thuran and would be the likely target of invectives. I don't think that you guys need to respond to every call for neutrality with some retaliatory accusation. Protonk (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Collectonian, while I cannot speak for everyone, this thread is not about a dislike for deletionists. You're a deletionist and I said in a recent AfD to keep per your improvements, offered to give you a rescue icon on your award page, etc. Stifle's a deletionist and gave me a barnstar for an idea I had. I disapprove of some editors' behavior, but just because someone is deletionist does not in my opinion automatically mean I or anyone should dislike them. In fact, I have had some rather pleasant interactions with self-described deletionists and certainly respect and understand the opposing viewpoint to mine. There's no reason why inclusionists cannot have fundamental disagreements, but maintain civility at the same time. Here, however, the editor in question is actually not simply aggresive to inclusionists, but even to fellow deletionists! For example, on May 12, he called Gavin.collins "arrogant" and that Gavin's message was "a fucking farce". This reaction came after this edit by Gavin, which seems relatively polite. Did Gavin's call to discuss really merit that harsh of a reply from Thuran? Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
If this isn't another inclusionists v deletionists political wrangle, it's very unfortunate that it looks so much like one. The first poster to this thread used to be called another name(one of our more famous inclusionists), and the second used to have another name (but it's hard to track down - both editors seem to have abused their right to vanish in the past).
I'm not opposed to the idea of any action being taken against ThuranX, but perhaps a user conduct RfC would be in order, to ascertain the community's opinion. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I removed the old names here. Please dont use them again. I can't speak for nobody, but there are some privacy concerns with my name. Accusing editors of abuse simply because they changed their name is a bad faith accusation. Ikip (talk) 11:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, from what I can see relatively few are. Instead, most of the people complaining are those that don't like the manner in which ThuranX attacks and cusses when dealing with others, and how his argumentative nature hasn't changed over the past 8 months. Instead, it just degrades this forum and other forums more and more. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
You know, I've never seen a complaint about a deletionist's conduct be brought to ANI without the usual crew of deletionist popping up to 1) insist that he didn't do anything wrong enough to be intervention worthy, and 2) accusing the complaining party(s) of being an inclusionist lynch mob. McJeff (talk) 05:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I'm a deletionist. :) So, we can end any idea that it is partisan. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, hang right on. How many "deletionists" are there in this thread insisting that Thuran is innocent? Count them. Frankly it is stunning that we can substitute broad generalizations for actual evidence. Protonk (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Sanction of some sort is appropriate. I just noticed this thread, but it includes several diffs to ThuranX's contributions there, which were uncivil and inflamatory responses to a proposal, despite repeated attempts on my part to engage him civilly. If we want to rescind WP:CIVIL, that's fine, but no amount of contributions should be an excuse for anyone to weigh in to a discussion with this sort of edit summary. Jclemens (talk) 05:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Users for Deletion Every time I browse ANI, this guy insulted another editor. I'm sick of seeing him. Nuke. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't want to get involved in this, but I think that the community should also consider this edit. Note that, as I explain here, ThuranX is in error about when the material in question was added to the article, but he nonetheless insists on portraying himself as the victim of bad faith. This particular case is a minor one, but it shows that even after he's been cautioned repeatedly ThuranX is incivil and far too ready to assume bad faith. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 01:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

  • What, specifically is the problem with either of those two diffs? Protonk (talk) 03:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
    • The second diff is me, pointing out ThuranX's error in the first. ThuranX is accusing me of "cheating" in the edit summary, and says "I see you are now joining in the Bad Faith discussion that Richard Arthur Norton is perpetrating, in which you reply to or redact commentaries in a way that deliberately makes mine look as though I am ignoring what you say. Deplorable behavior." I did no such thing. At 05:32 UTC yesterday, I added a source to the article Bananas, Crackers and Nuts noting that the episode had won an ACE Eddie Award. At 05:35 I noted this in the AfD. At 13:50, ThuranX said that he would withdraw the nomination "if that can be sourced properly". I was confused by this, and at 22:07 I asked for clarification. Then, at 23:09 ThuranX made his incivil and inaccurate accusation of bad faith.
      The dispute is, as I say, a minor one; I thought that the problem would be visible from the two diffs I initially gave. It's just further evidence to be considered in this case, that's all. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 03:58, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Note: after I made a request for him to retract his accusation of bad faith, ThuranX grudgingly did so. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 04:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
        • I'll not defend his manner here, but I will say that being the subject of this can make one a little defensive. Protonk (talk) 04:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
        • I am disappointed that the entire exchange between Josiah Rowe and myself was simply gaming for use here as evidence. I made no waves about striking out all that he asked me to. I cannot explain why his edits didn't show when I went to look, it might have been a cache issue of some sort. He asked, I struck out. Hardly the incivil horrors he makes it out to be, and to bring it here as evidence for an indef ban AS he asks me to resolve it? Hardly ethical. ThuranX (talk) 04:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
          • Did I say anything about an indef ban? I was just pointing out yet another case in which you assumed bad faith without evidence. This was not "gaming" — just pointing out that even when your behavior is under administrative review you still continue to jump off the handle. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 04:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
            • There's still no jumping off the handle. You've been instructing me on how to think and feel, and when you complained about my reaction to such edicts, I struck that out too. As for the indef ban, what do you think the purpose of this AN/I is? read it. It's a call for an indef ban. I assumed bad faith because it looks like bad faith, and when I'm already been hit with a steady stream of uncorrected bad faith actions, if I think I see more, I say I see more. I struck it when you came to me and asked. I still see no one saying anything to Richard Arthur Norton about his pattern of redacting and refactoring to put me into a bad light, which has put me on guard for bad faith and manipulation of this entire AfD series. ThuranX (talk) 05:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
              • Well, other admins can judge for themselves whether my saying "We'll have to agree to disagree" constitutes "instructing [you] how to think and feel" or "telling you what to do". I haven't examined Richard's behavior; but this conversation is about yours. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 05:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Where this appears most certainly to be an inclusionists against the world" struggle (note I !vote 85% of the time for "keep"), the substantive argument against ThuranX is lacking. I looked at the diffs provided, and note that those casting stones have been equally uncivil. I suggest that people do a search on the stated abusive language and note that many admins use such language on a regular basis, and are not sanctioned for it. Meanwhile, it is eminently clear that this is actually a try to remove a person who is active in AfD - where the cheif complainants are exceptionally active. Have a cup of tea everyone. This is not a valid case for sanctions at all. Collect (talk) 12:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Looking into the matter, I haven't seen one instance of anyone cussing, accusing him of cheating, attacking him, or the other incivil actions as ThuranX has done, so please provide proof that people are doing what he is doing. Also, there is no proof that this is to remove anyone from AfD nor affects AfD. This is a matter about his actions across many areas, so your comment about is a breach of Civil and AGF. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Search finds many thousands of use of the F word in WP. Amazingly enough. I also find "illiterate" when he refers to how someone interpreted what he had written to not be an attack. Making a change to indicate prescience two minutes after Thuran posted, and without re-timestamping the post is misleading at best, if one declines the word "cheating." Again -- all is better served with a cup of tea than anything else. This is not the place at all for casting stones, to be sure, and posting the diffs to show what is occurring runs contrary to my position -- that is to simply have everyone relax a bit. Thanks! Collect (talk) 14:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
By changing the subject does this mean you have no edit diffs? You made a pretty serious accusation: "I looked at the diffs provided, and note that those casting stones have been equally uncivil." and when someone called for evidence, suddenly you change your position. So where are the edit differences? Ikip (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

TX's conduct is symptomic of a general decline in civility in the general sphere of article inclusion and deletion. Calling people disingenuous, disruptive, etc. is not uncommon, and TX is only a shade worse than that. There's relatively little policing, because most of these discussions are metadiscussions of metadiscussions (discussions of conduct of editors at deletion/policy discussions, discussions of how to handle deletion discussions, etc.), so th practical impact of these pages is narrow and the only people who care are fairly entrenched.

So we have people who bring this general level of incivility to other circles, or people who go a little bit further in being incivil in these circles. Nobody wants to deal with it, because dealing with it means dealing with all of the people who are being jerks to each other. It's also difficult to take seriously claims of incivility from people who regularly toe the line in what is tolerated. On top of this, any number of these combatants is willing to turn any of these threads into a fistfight over whatever the particular issue of the day is, distracting from conduct, or attack the person who brings up the issue, further distracting from conduct. And, worst of all, any sort of action is frequently seen as vindication by the sanctioned combatant's opponents. You block ThuranX, you galvanize RA Norton. You block RA Norton, you galvanize Collectonian. You block Collectonian, you galvanize Pixelface. On and on.

I'm naming names here because the people have earned it, and a good many otherwise-reasonable editors I've met are horrible people in these circles. If you suspect that I am talking about someone you don't like, I am almost certainly talking about you. If you're planning to say, "Well, aren't you one of these people?" the answer is "Well duh."

I don't know the solution. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree AMIB that there is "a general decline in civility" If admins do this, what hope is there about general civility? Ikip (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Ikip, I could just as easily have used you as an example. Collectonian's comment above or your comment are examples of the sort of distraction; well, isn't the accuser just as bad? Doesn't the accuser have an ulterior motive? It's a hairball of obnoxiousness in response to obnoxiousness. I don't doubt that ThuranX is both instigated and instigator; the difference between the two is slim. When most of Wikipedia's dispute resolution is based around amicable discussion or removal of troublesome users, what do you do where you have a whole sphere that is nothing but fistfights? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Take it to RfC/U - if there's a case make it there. But I would caution that the whole 'deletionist vs inclusionist' discussion has clouded the issue. It doesn't help that both of these terms get thrown around as epithets (not in this discussion but in general) and that doesn't help outsiders form an opinion on the issue--Cailil talk 17:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I am neither an inclusionist nor a deletionist (AFAIK), though I have had some unpleasant experiences with Thuranx. His personal attacks and bad behavior, and generally hostile tone is a constant in his contribs. A warning would be roughly as effective as a barnstar. This user is clearly not understanding that what he is doing is wrong. IronDuke 04:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with IronDuke here. I fail to see how this entire complaint about ThuranX is a vast inclusionist conspiracy to get him. ThuranX makes many good edits, and so long as folk agree with him, he is a charming little fellow. When people disagree with him, his behavior gets really unfriendly. My first run-in with him as a newbie nearly made me leave the Project right then and there. I wonder how many other new editors simply leave, thinking that ThuranX' behavior is not only on par with what they should expect (not to mention tolerated). In itself, that makes ThuranX a net loss to the Project; we cannot afford to scare away editors who need to be encouraged, not shoved off the cliff.
I am not defending the others' actions; clearly, they aren't angels here. That often muddies the waters enough that admins give up trying to suss out the truth. The same complaints about ThuranX keep coming up, and he has made it clear that he considers each complaint to be the product of morons. How many RfC's does ThuranX have? How many AN/I complaints? How many WQA? Are they all stating the same problem, and have those diffs that make us cringe?
I don't know that a short-term block will do any good. I think we all understand that some users cannot - or will not - alter how they choose to interact with the online world. I'd suggest mentoring, but again, I think we know that ThuranX is too proud or stubborn to accept that anyone else can help him improve. Indeed, I think its clear he doesn't ever think he's wrong.
Maybe what's needed here is a Civility Parole. It has been used with some success in the past with other users that have recurring civility issues, and it seems to have the benefits of positively reinforcing civil behavior while instantly arresting uncivil, attack-y behavior. Thoughts? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I haven't seen civility parole in use before, but it sounds like a good idea, better than either ignoring the problem or a ban. (I agree with your assessment that ThuranX makes useful contributions, as long as others agree with him.) How would a civility parole work? —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 15:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It was used for DreamGuy last year. For the most part, it has served to curb that user's more aggressive tendencies. The way it works is that the user is enjoined from being uncivil. If the user acts in an uncivil or attacky way, the block is quickly investigated and escalating block periods are given. The down side of this is that users who particularly dislike the user on probation, some false positives can occur. In the aforementioned user's situation, some editors would adopt a hyper-sensitivity to incivility from the user. Such situations are frequently unfair, as the user can be blocked at the drop of a hat. Care needs to be taken to ensure that the user under probation was indeed trying to be civil. It has worked with DreamGuy somewhat, which - not to sound mean - has served to curb a lot of that behavior from permeating discussions and edit summaries. I'd like to stress that we cannot think we are changing the user's personality - no one changes unless they want to - but it can add the carrot and the stick to the equation. If they edit politely, they get to continue editing. If they don't, we have a right and a responsibility to make sure this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit peaceably - the user is blocked to protect everyone else's ability to edit in a positive environment. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Agree with RFC/U. I'm certainly no inclusionist, but the edit summaries provided by A Nobody are way over the top and completely unnecessary. We don't need that sort of thing on the project. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC). - ToV[edit]

Resolved: Police notified

Not sure if this is the right place for this or not. But this user keeps changing the content of Together Through Life with bomb/death threats. Some examples of his work: "Opps, seems like I just shot someone in the houes, I am warning you give me the $100,000 or the whole family will be dead" and most recently "I will blow the fucking brains out of every one of these motherfucks, come to [street address], Ellenbrook or I will kill the fuckers." Should this be taken seriously.. or is there some special procedure that should be followed? I checked the IP address and that address exists where the IP is coming from. Thanks --T'Shael MindMeld 08:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone local should phone the police, threats like this should be taken seriously. If I remember correctly it's a felony as well. Matty (talk) 08:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
His IP is out of Perth, Australia..not sure who is from there that is on here right now. I'm in Texas, but could still call 9-1-1. Terorristic threat is a felony in the US. Any suggestions? --T'Shael MindMeld 08:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Ellenbrook is in Western Australia, just outside of Perth. The address is also a real address. Worryingly, everything seems to check out. I'm not sure if the American police would be able to contact the local authorities effectively, but if you feel comfortable you have nothing to lose calling. Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm might be useful reading as well, this threat seems pretty credible even if it is a joke. Matty (talk) 08:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, this whole thing has kinda creeped me out. If things didn't check out so nicely, then I wouldn't worry. I'm going to try to locate the number of the police in his area. --T'Shael MindMeld 08:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The number (131 + 444) that the local police here gave me doesn't seem to work, so if anyone is actually in Australia and feels compelled to call the authorities - please do so. --T'Shael MindMeld 09:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

That telephone number will not work for international callers. The ordinary telephone number for Ellenbrook Police Station (2 Civic Terrace, Ellenbrook, WA 6069) is +61 8 92 97 98 00. An automated message will direct you to either 000 or the above number. Dial '1' after you are connected to reach an officer at the station. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

  • I would also suggest someone oversight the edits with the address in them, unless they need to stay there for the authorities. - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 11:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll keep that in mind and remember to email oversight in a day or two if no one contacts the local police. The IP has been blocked for three days but I believe the threats of violence should really be looked into. I'll try emailing the Perth police after I find a working email to notify them but in all honesty their were separate edits made over a day so I don't really think this matter is an immediate serious threat of violence, and i'm hoping i'm right. That said, the nature of the edits leads me to think there is a serious underlying problem with the person making them and the police need to be notified (i wont quote anything here as they'll end up being oversighted in the end). Hopefully i'll be able to get in contact with them soon but i'd urge any admins/users from the Perth area to notify the police as well. Matty (talk) 11:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Given further consideration I have called SA police and have notified them. Please do not oversight the edits.   «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l»  (talk) 16:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
The Police have sent a patrol car to the address mentioned and the computer crimes unit are investigating the IP.   «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l»  (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update. Does this mean the edits can be oversighted now or do the authorities still need them to stay in the history? - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 02:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm expecting a call back from Paul (computer crimes unit) detailing the result of the investigation. Until such a time I think that the pages should not be oversighted, I had a hard enough time explaining that anyone can edit wikipedia and I would hate to oversight them while he still needs them ;-) I'll email the oversight team when he gives me the ok.   «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l»  (talk) 02:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for keeping us up to date. --T'Shael MindMeld 05:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The police sent a patrol car out (without the $100,000 of course!) but no one was home (or no one answered), They said they would send another out tonight and get back to me tomorrow. They said the IP originates from that rough area so they are going to make inquiries as to why that specific address appeared in those messages. Paul has explicitly asked that the edits are not oversighted as they may be needed for legal reasons.   «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l»  (talk) 12:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest that if there are legal concerns as to whether or not to oversight the edits, it might be in the best interests of the police for them to contact the Foundation so that appropriate steps to back up any evidence can be taken. - Philippe 04:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
The oversighters OTRS list has already been emailed notifying them. Prom3th3an (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Get off that doppelganger. :P - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 05:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Oops! Its my old username (before rename) and I sometimes instinctively log into it without thinking.   «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l»  (talk) 06:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

User:Grant.Alpaugh unblock request[edit]

Resolved: Declined. Nja247 19:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

User:Grant.Alpaugh is requesting an unblock at his talk page. I would suggest that discussion continues there.--Stephen 07:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I analyzed the edits of Grant.Alpaugh. I believe he should be given a second chance. I'm willing to unblock Grant.Alpaugh. I will talk with the blocking admin first. AdjustShift (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
This user has 12 blocks on his record, since March '08. He has been unblocked five times based on promises to edit better in the future. I suggest that an indef block is the right thing in his case. Let him reapply in a year's time. He is well-intentioned, but seems to suffer from WP:OWN on the articles he works on. Since he gets into wars constantly, he may drive others away and is not a net benefit to the project. If you include a block log on a previous account, his troubles go back to 2007, so any promises of reform have a hollow ring. (He should have figured out how to work with others by now if he was ever going to). EdJohnston (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
More than a month is needed in my opinion. Further the user hasn't come to terms with all the things they were blocked for, ie meatpuppetry. Obviously if consensus proves otherwise I won't object, but I think it's too soon and today's apology didn't cover everything. Nja247 14:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Keep him blocked. Net drain on the project, no indication in the unblock request that he's about to change his ways, and a long record of re-blocks that suggests quite the opposite. Perhaps in a year he may still be interested and have learned he can't game the system.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
A month is definitely not enough time. This user was on his very last chance with a 0RR restriction and was still reverting. I'm not sure there's anything that can convince me he will not return to the bad behavior that got us here. I agree with Ed, a year at least. It was my ruling when declining his last unblock request that the community had lost patience with him. Mangojuicetalk 15:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

(←) I have just  Declined ([31]) the request for unblock. — Aitias // discussion 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

  • The consensus is to keep him blocked. I was willing to unblock, but now I won't unblock him. Maybe after six months or one year, if he admits his blunders and promise never to repeat it, we can unblock him. AdjustShift (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird admin behaviour![edit]

Unresolved: There's nothing that requires intervention by an admin here. If you're bothered by the comments made then consider following the dispute resolution policy. Nja247 08:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Could an admin please advise User:William M. Connolley that hectoring voters on an RFA, after its closure is not a good idea [32], particularly that of Flying Hamster's. Accusing oppose voters of slavishly following me, is a seriously bad idea. I had (notice past tense) decided to drop the matter of voters slavishly following anyone, but it seems that is not Connolley's wish. I strongly recommend one of you advises him to shut his misinformed mouth before all hell breaks lose. If this is the acceptable standard of Admin behaviour perhaps it would be better if they all stayed on #Admins and not visit here at all. Thank you. Giano (talk) 20:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Giano, if Tex is bothered by this I'm sure he is more than capable of bringing it up himself. the wub "?!" 20:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't give a stuff how bothered Tex is by it - I am bothered by it! Is everytime one of Connlley's friends's is opposed to be blamed on me - is now opposing a chattering candidate to be a reason for attack? That sound to me like someone, or an entire group, is seriously worried. Giano (talk) 21:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Very unusually, I agree with Giano. WMC's message, intentionally or not, comes across as intimidation, and that's not appropriate. Of course, very usually, Giano's tone is not helpful. Looie496 (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It's fine, Giano. I should feel special that of the 32 people who opposed Flying Toaster, William took a special interest in me a day after the RFA was closed. I don't know what I'll do now that his opinion of me has been confirmed, but I'll just have to live with myself knowing I have disappointed him. Tex (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Not resolved at all! So I have removed tag. Is Connolley to be allowed to hector whoever he feels has not voted in a way in which he approves. Are all of IRC's candidates to be rubber stamped? Can we have an Arb's view on this? Is it worth voting on an IRC RFA in future, or shall we all just smile and ignore as they sail through with 100 votes from those temporarily breaking off from chattering.? Guidance please from an Arb, as it seems Admins are not to be trusted on such matters. Giano (talk) 21:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
He's just talking, I don't see that he's made any threats or anything at all. He doesn't agree with your reasoning and is wondering why someone else would. I don't see anything immediately actionable, that is what ANI is (supposed to be) for, and that's why I marked the thread resolved. –xeno talk 21:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not 100% keen on the tone of William's message, but the fact that he's an admin is nothing to do with it, and I think it's below the threshold of when it's worth doing something about something. ╟─TreasuryTagcontribs─╢ 21:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Au contraire: Xeno had no business marking it resolved! Admins bullying and hectoring and trying to influence the results of future RFAs is very much a matter for this board. Giano (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
There's a certain irony in your accusations of "hectoring" for something that he dropped 6 hours ago, and I get the impression he isn't going to influence Tex much. Just drop it yourself. Go write some articles or something, or even better improve those of Flying Toaster's that you find so deficient. the wub "?!" 21:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The irony is that you attempt to justify Connolly's poor behaviour by comparing it to Giano's. Since when was Giano the benchmark for administrative behaviour? --Malleus Fatuorum 21:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Show me where I tried to justify WMC's behaviour. I'm just trying to quell needless drama, this thread isn't going to achieve anything. the wub "?!" 21:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Explain to me an alternative interpretation of "there's a certain irony in your accusations". The way to quell "needless drama" isn't by using a flamethrower. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Are you sure? I know people that have flamethrowers, we could always try... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Flame away George, if you think you're hard enough. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 22:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The internet would be more interesting if Flame wars involved actual flamethrowers--Jac16888Talk 22:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, Connolley doesn't want to discuss it on his page either and keeps reverting those who do (check history), to his own preferred, if erronious and blinkered, version. Nevermind, I'm sure like number 12 busses another IRC candidate will be along very soon, and Mr Connolley can scream and shout at the opposers again. It seems none of his fellow admins seem to want to rectify the situation - I wonder why? Giano (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
How would you recommend the situation be rectified?--Jac16888Talk 21:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that the tone of his remarks was combative and ultimately unhelpful. IronDuke 21:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not admin but I've had a few interactions with them. Watch out how you talk about your disagreements, Always remember Assume Good Faith, this is important for all of us but doubly so for admin. Sometimes it's best to let things go for a few days then pick up the situation later.Again not admin but a friendly suggestion.Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • What action do you want Giano? I personally think William Connolley is an intolerant, uncommunicative, unhelpful admin, and that Wikipedia would be best off without him. That at least sets my position clear (and looks like a cop out as well...sigh..sorry about that). I'm not saying the thread is good or bad - but demands for action/rectification need to be a little more precise than just "do something". Pedro :  Chat  21:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Completely agree. I'm hoping that LessVanU's current reconfirmation RfA will set some sort of standard, but there's nothing can be done here until something like that becomes the norm. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Giano's attempt to ignite a flamewar seems to have been a bit of a damp squib, so I've had a go myself: William M. Connolley (talk) 22:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Connolley, if you want to exhort people to read your ramblings go to Wikipedia Review - they've got a whole crowd there who spend all day doing the same thing. Some suggestions for you;
  1. Stop using rollback in situations where non admins would have it removed if they did
  2. Respond to people - you're not actually better than the rest of us
  3. Stop stiring the pot
  4. Back off, take a break and come back when you can add value
Pedro :  Chat  22:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
As someone who has had practically zero interaction with these characters, I have just one comment: Both Connolley and Giano should be absolutely ashamed of themselves with the sheer number of complaints that have been lodged against each of them in this and other fora. —Travistalk 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I find it odd how questioning someone about their opinion in an area that is consensus based on a community that is consensus based is now "hectoring". If you have an opinion, expect it to be questioned, challenged, or the like. If you don't like it, then don't post it. WMC has a lot of real problems, but this is not one of them. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Note - I had tagged this as resolved, since no administrative action seems to be required. However, although this tagging has been reverted, I'm still unable to see exactly what the point of this wandering and ill-focussed discussion might be. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
The point of this "wandering and ill-focussed discussion" is for an Admon, Connolley, to be rebuked and made aware that such conduct is unacceptable. The whole of Flying Toaster's RFA was marred by hectoring and badgering of the opposition by those supporting - who knows what the true result may have been - otherwise? Not to mention the "100" or so articles that her supporters claimed she created 9see thread above). All that aside, to further pusue an oppose voter after the RFA has successfully closed smacks of hounding and harassment - are they no longer Wiki-crimes? Giano (talk) 06:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
We have such a number of irresponsible juvenile administrators precisely because the bcrats are easily intimidated by folks such as Connolley into rubber stamping their will on the community. This is part of the system that IRC has forced on the English Wikipedia (not on the other language wikipedias, thank god). There is no way to alter this course of development through a mere thread on this noticeboard. English Wikipedia starts to lag behind other wikipedias as regards content; and that's a good sign which may drain some of the stagnant water from this wikipedia rather sooner than later. --Ghirla-трёп- 07:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I think most of us Ghirla, like you, that can write to a decent standard in other languages are too coming to that conclusion. Who needs to bothered by a bunch of second rate Admins strutting about supporting a crumbling leadership when one can be far happier on another Wikipedia. It's only looking after the time already invested that keeps many of us here, even occasionally. Giano (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Closing this thread[edit]

Although I know this might be a futile suggestion, might I advise that we close down this thread at this point? There is nothing in WMC's behavior that can be sanctioned by any admin action. If anyone feels that his behvavior needs to be looked into, WP:RFC/U or WP:RFAR are the correct venues to do this. So unless someone can suggest any administrative action that can be used within policy in this case (I fail to see any), I think we should put a resolved tag on this section and advise those who feel the need for action to pursue the appropriate venues for dealing with user conduct. Regards SoWhy 07:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Marked as close. There's nothing that requires intervention by an admin here. If you're bothered by the comments made then consider following the dispute resolution policy. Please do not disrupt this noticeboard just to make your point please. Nja247 08:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Coringa (talk · contribs)[edit]


Coringa (talk · contribs) repeatedly inserts dubious information [33] (5x), won't provide a source when asked to, does not communicate, for some strange reason changed my signature to Jimbo Wales [34], he was reverted and warned for doing so, but he did it again [35], he also removed two warning messages from his talk page. Despite those warnings, he continues to make the same violations. He hasn't made any other edits. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 02:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Warned the user on their talk page. If they continues adding uncited information, they should be blocked for a short period of time. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC).[edit]

Hello, I was asked by User: Kingoomieiii to report the actions of User:Spooky873 and his Ip User: For more then a year this person has been edit warring Foo Fighters articles to remove the inclusion of Post-grunge from the Genre. As seen from his IP [[36]],[[37]], [[38]]. This has been done against The Consensus that he tried to change with Meat puppets and Socks. His Sock Puppetry case can Be found here. Kingoomieiii lost his cool and started a Flame war on the Ip's talk page that I put a stop too and reported too Alerts. King then asked me to help him and I took in the case after we settled our differences as a neutral third party. However, after looking at the consensus and his actions, I agree he is a disruptive editor. Although I'm not quite sure what can be done. Thanks and happy editing.--SKATER Speak. 01:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed some broken links above; hope you don't mind. To clear up some ambiguous language, I'm pretty sure Skater doesn't mean I'm the disruptive editor. Well, at least I hope not.
In any case, this user is now simply Undoing all my edits to the genres of these pages, and refuses to comment (or even post an edit summary). Long, long history of belligerent edits on talk pages. Some of it may be hard to find, because as a habit, he simply doesn't log in, ever. --Kingoomieiii ♣ Talk 12:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


Its so sad that I have to start an ANI against this user in such a short time. The user is still doing the same removal of content from The Cherrytree Sessions (Lady Gaga EP) without any explanations and going on edit warring when reverted. He has been warned, explained and told about WP policies like VERIFIABILITY and WP:NOT but still doesnot assume good faith. I keep my faith in administraters to deal about this as I donot want to comment or commit 3RR. --Legolas (talk2me) 12:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't look like much of an admin matter yet. I'm not an admin, and have worked with both editors, so I'll give a shot at resolving this and bring it back here if necessary.—Kww(talk) 12:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


Please note that Keltie reverted 4 times on both the Amy Robach and Jenna Wolfe articles in less than 24 hours today.‎ A WP:3rr no no. Admin action must be taken. CADEN is cool 17:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Please file the report at WP:AN3 with the requisite diffs, etc. –xeno talk 17:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't forget to report yourself too - is there an edit warrring/gaming the system noticeboard, or will this one do? SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the specific edits, Keltie changed something the IP did and then Caden reverted, Keltie re-reverted, and back and forth to 3 reversions each.
Keltie's initial change was part of several edits and not a simple "revert" on the IPs edits, though part of it was undoing that specific change last night.
Caden - you have not commented in any of the edit summaries or on any talk page as to why you reverted. One could stretch 3RR to cover her - but typically, we don't, as she didn't "just" revert the IP.
With an equal stretch we can point to your edits as sterile reverts - no edit comments, no talk page comments - and please be aware that 3RR is not an entitlement, but a hard limit.
Please take this to the article talk pages and explain yourself. Failure to WP:AGF and sterile revert warring with someone, reporting them to ANI after a sterile revert war, these are not good things. You really don't want admins to take action here. Trust me. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Both given 24h to think about it. —Travistalk 18:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Username reminds me of former arbitrator User:Kelly Martin. --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

And User:Caden is now requesting an unblock so if anyone wishes to review the blocks, feel free to do so. Thanks —Travistalk 18:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Note: I am copying the following statement from User talk:KeltieMartinFan ([39]), as requested by KeltieMartinFan (talk · contribs):

I have reasons to believe that Caden (talk · contribs) has some unsettling grudge against me which stemmed from an incident that occurred on this noticeboard two-and-a-half weeks ago. Therefore as a way to get back at me, he puts his hands on certain articles which, up until that particular point, he has no particular interest in, but are of my personal interest nonetheless. I believe that he is only doing this simply as a way to get under my skin. The incident from 2.5 weeks ago did not fall in his favor, and I think the bitterness of all that still lingers with him to this very day apparently.

He left a comment on my talk page shortly after the forum closed on that particular incident saying ‘’I will be watching you closely.’’ In my opinion, the way he wrote this particular comment on my talk page, it came off as if he was going to plan some type of personal revenge against me the next time I did any type of edit on Wikipedia, constructive or not. It’s one thing to keep an eye on a particular editor to see if he/she does anything that constitute a violation on here. But to keep what appears to be a 24-hour surveillance on a certain editor, and react to almost every single edit he/she makes, even if it is a justifiable one, that comes off, simply put it, as one particular editor planning a personal vendetta on another particular editor. If I’m not mistaken, that would be grounds of violation under the Wikipedia:Civility guidelines on the part of the perpetrating editor.

As for this current incident at hand, ‘’Caden’’ has been doing edits on one of my particular article of interest as of lately, the Deal or No Deal (US) models. While the edits he put on this article does come off as constructive, it does not excuse the fact that he has never touched this article ever until May 8, 2009. The only reason I suspect that he is doing it now is because of me and the whole initial incident 2.5 weeks earlier.

The Deal or No Deal article is only one of three articles of my own interested that ‘’Caden’’ has been messing with so far. The other two are Amy Robach and Jenna Wolfe, talk-show personalities for The Today Show on NBC. I made edits on these two articles only because facts on these two articles were not entirely correct, and I simply wanted to make them exactly so. Shortly after I make this minor corrective edits, ‘’Caden’’ would come in and revert virtually all corrections I made back to the original “not-entirely” correct facts. This has been going on three times in the last 24-hours.

And to add insult to injury, he gave me this warning[[40]] for this edit war that he himself started. I did not even go past four reverted as he stated.

Once again, this is all stemming back from an incident that happened 2.5 weeks ago. To say the very least, I am very disappointed that this particular editor has been carried on this grudge against me for as long as he did. ‘’Caden’’ has a recent history of uncivility towards other editors than myself. I strongly recommended an administrator hand some type of warning down for his incivility against me. I do not get involved in ‘’Caden’s’’ personal interest here on wikipedia whether it’s Major League Soccer, Penthouse or anything pertaining to the adult film industry because they are of no interest to me. I do have respect for others editors and interest in these particular articles, and will not mingle in their businesses. Apparently, ‘’Caden’’ cannot do the same for others. It’s very unfortunate it has to come to this. KeltieMartinFan (talk) 18:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Aitias // discussion 19:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If it's true that Caden is engaged in what might better be termed as WP:HARASSMENT - and I'm not saying it is true, but if it is - then the factually incorrect 3RR violation complaint could be part of that pattern. Caden's incivility is, of course, a long-standing problem. I would like to point out that a few weeks ago, Caden warned me to stop watching his user talk page. Not to just stay off it, but also to stop watching it. So I stopped watching it, in case he's monitoring my keystrokes. But I can still watch other user talk pages. 0:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

On review - Caden has not edited those two articles before today, and KeltieMartinFan has done so regularly for some time.
I am concerned that this constitutes wikihounding - editor with a personal grudge, articles they have never edited before, a sterile edit war...
I'm going to initiate a discussion with Caden on his talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
This shows Caden's animosity towards Keltie. As usual, Caden complains about a user being a bully, and he goes on to threaten to kick Keltie's ass. If I didn't have a background with Caden, I'd unblock Keltie without reservation as it seems obvious he did this specifically to bother Keltie. Frankly, I don't think Caden is an asset to the project at all. AniMatedraw 23:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
As a note, Caden has also been vocal in the controversy at Carrie Prejean, which used to be a redirect to DoND before the whole Miss USA kerfuffle. So while I suspect, both from the Robach and Wolfe edits and from what I've observed of his actions in the places we've crossed paths before, that he's hounding KeltieMartinFan, it's at least possible that he started editing the DoND article innocently. John Darrow (talk) 23:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
as I have no history at all with either user that I can recall, and no concern with the topic, I did the unblock on KMF, saying "per AN/I." It seems clear enough what is going on, but i leave it to further discussion whether a longer block on the other editor is appropriate. DGG (talk) 00:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
(self-reply) On the other hand, the sudden arrival of User:Corpiestre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (contributions), whose immediate and only purpose is to complain on other users' talk pages about how Caden was treated, reeks so much of block evasion that it will make it very hard to ever again WP:AGF with Caden. SPI/CU, anyone? John Darrow (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
More likely it's another sock of the User:Fondesep and User:Horneldinkrag family, whose puppetmaster has yet to be identified. Trying to implicate Caden would be the M.O. of the guy who tried to implicate User:Axmann8 a month or two ago. That doesn't mean they're the same one, though, as there is no shortage of weirdness on the internet. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 00:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
The tone of those posts doesnt sound like Caden to me. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that Caden retires or gets a perm block by the end of the week. Guyonthesubway (talk) 01:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
What, again? But you're right, he's really pushing the envelope this week. On the other hand, the impostor turned out to be an old "pal", the latest entry in the Pioneer Courthouse sockfarm, maybe trying to branch out a bit from the rut he was in. Speaking of dollars to donuts, that reminds me: Did you hear the rumor that Krispy Kremes may soon be declared a drug, due to their effective use against hypoglycemia? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 07:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
500 cc's of Raspberry frosted! Stat! Personally, I have porterhouse steak deficiency. Gotta get my doc to write me a prescription....Guyonthesubway (talk) 11:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Caden was vindicated at SPI Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Caden/Archive. The sock isn't his, and as I said before on his talk page, that's not his style. — Becksguy (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Possible Unintentional Outing[edit]

Resolved: Per Mishlai. EdJohnston (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be grateful if an admin would review my actions here[41], take further action to strip information out of the history as necessary, or tell me if I'm wrong. Thank you.