Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive544

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Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi[edit]

Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi is apparently a biography. It was on the LGBT radar because the gay is amongst the many items within the various texts. It's quite a mess but is it art, a hoax or a DYK wet dream come true? -- Banjeboi 08:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"His carrier as a teacher"? This magnificant effort needs preserving in all its tattered glory - on Uncyclopedia perhaps? LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
You missed the part about how his elementary school training occurred on the Nimitz. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't risk my braincells by actually reading it - I'm an admin; we don't do reading of content - but just looked at the section headers. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Odd that the editor who created this article, User:Paharhikhan also created the user page for User:Syedbasit raza. Paharhikhan also created, in his/her first edit, Obaidullah Alvi, and later Syed Fazal Hussain Shah, both of which need wikification as badly as Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi. The syle of these articles reminds me of someone else, but I can't put my finger on it. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 09:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Well it appears to be a recreation of Molana Yaqoob Alvi Birotvi which has been deleted twice. I'd suggest someone who's not half asleep take a look at the creators other contributions. Circle Bakote and Dhundi-Kairali language have both been tagged for cleanup since '07. I found this gem in Dhundi-Kairali article about Molana: He is also a wrestler and broke the legs of many locals in his prime. Yeah, there's a lot of cleanup here. AniMatedraw 09:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted and salted the subject article. I shall take a look at the other articles mentioned and review Paharhikhan's contrib history. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted some as WP:CSD#A7, and templated others for improvement where there appears to be some claim of notability or supporting sources (some are borderline, but if Imran Khan's political party is advertising on the site I am inclined to consider it legitimate). I feel Parahinkhan is a good faith contributor, but whose grasp of WP practices is as shaky but enthusiastic as his English. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Obaidullah Alvi is another sneaky recreation, this time of Mohammed Obaidullah Alvi which was deleted in 2007 after this AfD. I'm tempted to delete it myself, but insomnia has my brain working at about half its normal speed, so not 100% on my judgement. AniMatedraw 10:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Good find. I shall take a look at the AfD discussion, since the current article does give a claim of some notability (books published, newspapers created) which was included in the deleted version. The deleted article has an awful lot of "family history" of non notable people, so I will review the discussion to see where the problems were. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
(ec) After comparing the two article side by side, other than an introductory paragraph, they're mostly identical. An easy G4, though this bears some looking into as apparently the subject is a relatively active editor named User:Molvi333. Perhaps an SPI is in order. AniMatedraw 10:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
BTW, as with all of my admin actions, feel free to revert without asking me first. I'm not particularly fussy about that kind of thing. AniMatedraw 10:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
(ec)I'm content to leave it up for a new AfD. The AfD was for an article which was only a family tree, and had the above articles predecessor added to it when it was WP:Coatracked to include the family history being discussed at AfD. While it may be troubling that an editor is cleverly attempting to place family history - the discussed article is a self bio, it appears - on WP it may still be a cultural misunderstanding of notability than disruption. Under the circumstances, it may be that a fresh AfD needs to be run on Obaidullah Alvi to determine whether the claims of notability are sufficient, or whether they need to be verified. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not going to undelete. If another admin wants to review and decide there should be an AfD then fine, but I am also not wedded to my opinions on this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm just concerned because it looks like multiple accounts are being used and the recreation of these articles with slightly different names or capitalization is deliberate. I'd feel much more comfortable with an admin or user with some in depth knowledge of the Middle East weighing in. I'll do some more investigating soon. AniMatedraw 11:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • If they insist on creating articles here, it might help their case, however slightly, if they learn to use our language instead of apparently slapping words together in a manner that 'looks nice'. 16:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at Circle Bakote none of the references had the word "circle bakote" in them. The words "Circle Bakote" get no hits on google books, and precious view on google. There is a small village that i can confirm exists in NWF Pakistan called "Bakote" and our article on this village Bakot albiet written by someone with a shaky grasp of english, says "Union Council Bakote is historical place in Circle Bakote where four Muslim sains are laying rest including." Since Circle Bakote is completely unverifiable (and likely a hoax) I'm redirecting to Bakot.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Having looked just a little further, it appears that Bakot (i've now confirmed that's the prefered spelling in English) is in Kashmir, which obviously has various nationalist issues at play which should make iron-clad sourcing for claims even more important than usual.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to drop a note on WikiProject Pakistan as they should be more familiar with the notability of these subjects. AniMatedraw 22:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Accuracy checker[edit]

Resolved: Blocked 12 Hours by Mifter, after failing to stop or respond to repeated warnings. -- (talk) 04:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Falastine fee Qalby[edit]

Krisztina Morvai is a far-right Hungarian politician who has recently been noted internationally for some utterly antisemitic outbursts and has a long history of smearing political opponents by calling them "zionists". Reminding of these facts was obvioulsy too much for Falastine fee Qalby (talk · contribs), who removed them altogether under the thinnest of pretextes: [1], [2]. I take offense at a person with a - to put it mildly - strongly pro-Arab wikiagenda to rush at the defence of that great pro-Palestinian, Mrs. Morvai ( It sure pushes the boundaries of POV a bit too far - or does it?--RCS (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The user has now started an edit-war [3], [4]. --RCS (talk) 21:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a content dispute with you pushing to place in inflammatory material. It has no place here on AN/I, whining about it won't help you here. Who rushes to the AN/I for dispute that started less than an hour ago? -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
The censorship you want to exercice speaks for itself. By the way, you have started an edit-war and are on the verge of 3RR and PA. --RCS (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
And now this!!!! How disruptive can an editor get? This is the silliest request for deletion of the year (already).--RCS (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Both of you, enough with the fighting in the War Room. Anyways, in regards to She is also a rabid antisemite with a huge problem with circumcision → If that is not a blatant BLP violation, then I don't know what is. Such removal on the talk page is acceptable under WP:BLP and WP:NOTFORUM. MuZemike 21:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
He placed it back and he will continue to do so if someone doesn't step in. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
(ec)You call me the pov pusher, yet your only edits to the article is to label this person as an antisemite. Your accusation is ironic, clearly you are the one with the agenda. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I nominated it for deletion because you and your likes have only one purpose on that article, and that is to post libel. That's all.-Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Saying that a living person is antisemitic, conspirationist and sexist based on an inference on the source given is not only original research but also a BLP violation. MuZemike 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I have to leave now so please do what you can. RCS is adamant about keeping his blatant POV version. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I have changed the wording on the talk page section (see [5]) and have tried to remove the BLP-violating material and what was not supported by the sources (see [6]). Hopefully, both sides will be satisfied with this. MuZemike 21:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(<-)Please review the definition of Category:Antisemitism. It is not Category:Antisemitic people, which was deleted years ago. This relates to the discussion of antisemitism; which is why the ADL is in this category too. Part of Ms. Morvai's notability is specifically how her statements are received within the context of the discussion of antisemitism in Europe, so the category is appropriate, and not a BLP violation, as it is reliably and verifiably sourced. -- Avi (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Related : User:Carpiggio[edit]

Carpiggio (talk · contribs) now removes every passage related to Morvai's and Jobbik's antisemitism. This is pure and plain vandalism.--RCS (talk) 09:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Possibility of BLP/BNP vandalism[edit]

In light of the news, it appears likely that there will be some politically-motivated BLP vandalism when the U.K. wakes up this morning. Uncle G (talk) 04:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • A fair point, yes. Following the usual procedure would be easiest: keep a close eye on possible targets, blocking persistent vandals (or reporting them to AIV), and protecting (or requesting protection) if it gets out of hand. AGK 12:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


I am raising this ANI again. This user is continuously engaging edit warring on Lady Gaga discography when told not to do so. The user is from Italy and is hell bent on adding the Italian charts to the discography page when talk page consensus has been reached regarding choosing Ireland over Italy with valid reasons. Warnings have been given to the user to stop edit warring and discuss on the talk page but of no use. He/She has previously engaged in such edit wars over other Lady Gaga articles and is engaging in trolling and personal attacks against me for reverting his changes - See here and here. Administrative intervention is needed. --Legolas (talk2me) 11:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • I've blocked Smanu for 14 hours. You and Moon-sunrise narrowly avoided a block too; in future, please discuss changes you disagree with—and don't flatly revert. AGK 12:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Frank Sontag: 3RR block and page protection[edit]

I had requested protection at RFPP. An admin handled it, and did so correctly. However, the admin looks to have stopped editing and may not be able to quickly respond to my request. As I'd like to handle this matter quickly, can someone take a look at my request here? Thanks, NonvocalScream (talk) 04:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Although I wouldn't oppose another administrator doing so, I don't think blocking the other parties to the edit war would be a productive action. There has been no recent activity on the article, and so I don't see how blocking the remaining editors would be anything but a punitive action. You might wish to discourage them by means of a talk page caution from reverting and not discussing changes they disagree with. AGK 12:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The page is a WP:BLP, and it is therefore rather important that all claims on that page are referenced by WP:RS. One editor has used socks to evade a 3RR block, and continues to replace the unreferenced material. However this would probably best be handled by a block of that editor for non-BLP editing, rather than stopping references from being added. Verbal chat 13:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
That editor (DLA9999) is currently, it seems, blocked. I've looked through the history going back to last year and can't find a version with references, which the user claims exists, and has accused me (via their email from their sockpuppet) and another user (via their own email) of removing. Nonvovalscream, was the email you received from this editor, or another possible sock? Thanks, Verbal chat 13:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I've watchlisted the article and would be happy to act if/when necessary. MastCell Talk 16:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The email is in the WP:OTRS database, as a ticket I was corresponding. I would have rather protected the article and forced talk page participation. Most of the time, that has worked in the past. Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 17:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions re: a persistent block evader[edit]

User:TungstenCarbide was blocked for civility issues by Toddst1 back in March. The initial block was for 72 hours, and several admins and editors tried to talk TC through it. However, the block quickly became indefinite (courtesy of Kafziel) following a string of abusive messages on TC's talk page. From there, TungstenCarbide has returned with a string of sockpuppet accounts:

The last few socks started leaving notes on my talk page, as well as at Wikipedia Review, so it has become a bit of a game for him/her. I strongly suspect that this guy has switched names to User:Strontiumsulfate; that account opened a few hours after TCX was blocked, and the only edit to date is to add "Here kitty, kitty.." on that user page. ("Cat"z jokes, haven't heard those before...) Any suggestions on how to get at the root of this person? Is it worth filing a checkuser request to establish if it is a common IP, or if we're stuck with an IP range? --Ckatzchatspy 17:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think Checkuser is appropriate if not substantially overdue. If there's a static IP it should be blocked, if there's a range, it may depend on the collateral damage. Plus it might be wise to check for sleeper socks. Mangojuicetalk 17:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback; I have now filed one here. If you are familiar with these requests, I'd appreciate it if you could please look it over to make sure I've dotted the i's and crossed all the t's where appropriate. Thanks again. --Ckatzchatspy 18:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible Copyright Issues[edit]

I'm about to go offline, but I noticed the contributions of Rickbrown9 (talk · contribs) and I was hoping someone with a bit more spare time could look at a few of his image uploads. Any help'd be great. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 10:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • The image File:MukundaGoswami.jpg would appear to be a cropped and resized version of this, which explains the artifacts. Another image, File:Butch-1.jpg is identical to the one here, only flipped and with a sepia filter. The light reflected on the photo matches that on the uploaded image. - Bilby (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Given File:ImNotTalking.ogg, File:ImNotTalking2.ogg and File:No-Survivors.ogg, I'd say there are two possibilities: 1) the uploads are all copyvios or 2) the uploader is Richard Shaw Brown. The user's edit pattern is strongly focussed on Brown's band, The Misunderstood. For the latter, since the recording contract probably would assign the rights, the mafiaa might give us an offer we can't refuse. MER-C 12:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
That seems quite likely, given the location of some of the photos. - Bilby (talk) 12:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
What does that make User:Rsbj66, whose user page says he is Richard Shaw Brown, but who stopped editing in April 2007? Lost password, perhaps? Ed Fitzgerald t / c 12:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
That's plausible. MER-C 12:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
After Rsbj66 stopped editing, most of the edits on Richard Shaw Brown were done by multiple IPs from, which Geolocates to Bangkok. If this is him as well, than the vast majority of the edits on the article have been made by the subject of the article, which seems like it might be a bit of a problem. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 13:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I've put notices about this discussion on Rsbj66's and Rickbrown9's talk pages, as well as a COI template. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 22:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Legal threats on talk page of Taleb[edit]

Hi! I would like an end of the legal threats (direct or indirect) made on the following talk page Talk:Nassim Nicholas Taleb. See for example [[7]]. It would be very helpful if some admin can explain the policies of WP:LEGAL, and how you should proceed if you want to take legal action against Wikimedia foundation or some contributor. Ulner (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I dropped a standard {{uw-legal}} on the users talk page as i agree that this is likely an implied threat. I leave it up to the admins to handle this further - also, you might want to give him a notice that you started this ANI discussion as well. Its just good form to do so :) Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 17:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Ulner (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
While not considered a (blockable) legal threat by the community, I bring to everyone's attention the User:IbnAmioun userpage and the intent of this user to contact the WMF office (see the edit summaries on [8] and [9]). Judging by the content on the userpage, this editor is editing with a clear COI. MuZemike 17:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello, See the comments in the harassment charge I raised. The COI is resolved as I only get involved to defend the Taleb family against stalking and harassment, simple self-defense (no updating, etc.). I filed a complaint of stalking harassment against a living person. I would like it to be handled the right way please. IbnAmioun (talk)! —Preceding undated comment added 22:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC).

2 Skinnee J's and Andyaction[edit]

Andyaction (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) who has admitted he is/was a member of the band 2 Skinnee J's (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been advised that he has a conflict of interest, but insists on inserting unsourced material, even though advised to provide sources, has also inserted point of view "statements" here [10], here [11], here [12] and here [13]. He persists in posting sarcastic comments on the user talk pages of Chiliad22 and Jezhotwells. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Politely made aware of WP's guidelines, but chose to ignore them. Blatant, inappropriate COI editing and incivility. ~PescoSo saywe all 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


WFLonTVS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) Enthusiastic spamming. User account suggests connection with the site. Disembrangler (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

No indication that user has been warned of policy violation. KuyaBriBriTalk 20:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Category disruption[edit] (talk · contribs) is going across dozens (possibly hundreds) of articles about fictional characters, adding Category:Film characters. I posted a note on the user's talk page explaining that a vast majority of these articles are already categorized in more specific subcategories (ie. Category:Science fiction film characters) and asking him/her to stop applying the category indiscriminately, instead checking first to see if a more specific subcat is already applied (& if not, to apply a more specific subcat instead of the generic "Film characters"). The user's activity has not abated in the slightest, despite a warning and an additional request to stop with a request to read WP:CAT. I don't have the time to undo all of the edits myself, and the user shows no sign of stopping. Messages seem to be ignored, so unfortunately I think the only solution may be blocking and mass-reverting. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I just gave them a 15 minute block to put a stop to it and try to get them to talk to you.
Please WP:AGF and discuss with them on their talk page some more, not just template warnings etc. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
FWIW I only used 1 template warning. I wrote 3 separate specific messages myself explaining the situation & asking them to stop, but still no response and no slowdown in activity. If you'll read my messages, particularly the first, I think you'll see that I did AGF, but there's not much else I can do when the user doesn't respond to any messages. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


I was just browsing through some old AFDs and saw a few mentions of BJAODN. I typed it into the search bar and saw that the page does not exist, but that WP:BJAODN redirects to WP:Silly Things. Since I'm sure I'm not the only user who's ever tried to get to a "WP:" page without typing in the prefix (or not realizing it is a "WP:" page), I thought I'd create a direct redirect to Silly Things. Unfortunately the page has been creation protected due to numerous deletions and restorations in 2006 and 2007, so I could not so it. Would an admin mind terribly creating BJAODN as a redirect to WP:Silly Things? I just think it would make things a bit more convenient for new and forgetful users (like me for the latter), and it would look a bit nicer than seeing a creation protection template. I understand that WP:Silly Things is itself only maintained for historical purposes, but it would still make it that little bit easier for newer users who may hear of it and want to see what the page entails. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I think these days WP:CNRs aren't very much in favour. –xenotalk 20:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Xeno is correct. That would be a cross-namespace redirect and so far, consensus has always been against creating new such redirects... SoWhy 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the info; I wasn't aware of that. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Legal threats[edit]

Resolved: Editor blocked indef per WP:NLT for this. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Got some legal threats from this user on my talk page about us "adding material and information" to Crieff Highland Games. - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Tan | 39 20:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Ta - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
For reference, there was indeed some unpleasant material in the history of Crieff Highland Games. I deleted the history (twice, it went back further than I thought) earlier this evening. Doesn't excuse the pointless legal threats, but worth us keeping 'em peeled. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 21:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) seems to be the only source of the "unpleasant material"; the IP seems to be fairly stably assigned, so to my mind should either be blocked or given a stern warning. I'd do it myself, but I live too close to Crieff for comfort. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Copyright input request[edit]

Hi. Today's batch at WP:CP included Lazy Magnolia Brewing Company, which consisted almost entirely of text pasted from the official website and its subpages. (Admins only, I'm afraid, can view this, since it is now deleted.) When the copyright infringement was pointed out, the contributor evidently made an effort to obtain permission, but restored the text out of process while doing so, ostensibly so that the copyright holders could see the text in use. Not having received permission, he removed the single tagged section, but that left considerably more text from the site exposed (See the bottom of his talk page for some conversation about this.) Given the contributors evident misunderstanding of copyright policy (including the note in edit summary that "copyedit this section too to address any concerns.. although I'd hardly call descriptions of what a beer tastes like as being copyrightable"), I started checking the contributors other work and have found two more pastes for which he is evidently responsible (Including Grand Gulf Military State Park (Mississippi), which the contributor removed with the note "no copyright notice on that site but to appease the stalker...") and Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks, which he restored as not copyrightable, notwithstanding Mississippi's explicit claim otherwise. (The facts are not copyrightable, but the language used is.) I also found another copyright infringement which he did not place, but in an article which he split without noting the origin. There seem to be serious misunderstandings about copyright policy here, including that we can publish copyrighted text in the hopes that the owners will grant license, that beer descriptions can't be copyrighted and that we can use copyrighted text if it is not explicitly claimed. Since this contributor is taking my scrutiny personally, I would welcome other input. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't need other input, but thanks. Nothing to see or do here, carry on. - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 17:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Unless you've now decided that beer descriptions and websites that do not explicitly claim copyright can't be used under our copyright policy, I'm afraid that I do. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
In the U.S., prior to the Copyright Act of 1976, published works needed an explicit copyright notice to be covered by copyright law. (Lack of a copyright notice on a print run of Houghton Mifflin's American publication of The Lord of the Rings allowed Ace Books to publish an unauthorized version of the trilogy.) After 1976, all published works were covered, regardless of whether they had a notice or not, and unpublished works were covered as well -- so whether a webiste explicitly claims copyright or not is totally irrelevant. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 18:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Although Allstarecho evidently still feels harassed by my overview of his contributions, I have found copyright from diverse sources going all the way back to 2007, with Lanier High School (Jackson, Mississippi), which duplicates this copyrighted 2006 source: [14]. And, in fact, I see he removed a Corensearchbot notice from an article he created here and was advised of copyright policies here. To boot, he still does not accept that this is in any way wrong, per edit summary: as usual, facts can't be copyrighted but whatever. I believe more input might be valuable. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  • You are correct in your analysis. Simply remove anything prior to 1976 (as mentioned above) that is not covered by a copyright release statement. If the editor replaces it, then block them. Black Kite 00:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
    • That's somewhat easier said than done, given the extensive contribution history, but I'm doing my best. :/ Meanwhile, the more I look, the more I am concerned that this contributor has shown no interest in complying with copyright policy, given the tone with which he's addressed these concerns and previous issues. His attitude doesn't seem to have changed since he was advised in September, 2007, when he said, "I'm not incorrect because I said I don't FEEL text about a public educational institution, especially one my tax dollars help pay for, is copyrighted." In other words, evidence suggests he has not been unaware of these policies, having removed a number of Corensearchbot notices as well as basically shrugging off that 2007 conversation. He seems simply to have not felt inclined to honor them, just as he removed without comment this notice of the issue and request to address it by yet another administrator on May 30th of this year. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a serious problem of repeated, intentional copyright violations. If the user continues to upload copyright infringements, he should be immediately blocked. Meanwhile, we're going to have to plow through his contributions to remove any and all copyvios that he's added, since it's clear he won't do it himself. Any assistance would be welcome. (Moonriddengirl, do you think the damage is extensive enough to merit a checklist at Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Contributor surveys?) – Quadell (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Taking MRG's assertions on trust, I agree with Quadell's conclusion. Allstarecho, your actions are out of line and you must reconsider your position or else cease contributing. No amount of flippancy routes around the absolute intolerability of copyright violation on wikipedia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I've done an initial review of Allstarecho's contributions, and the problem is in fact far worse than Moonriddengirl's description - he has been routinely and indiscriminately borrowing copyrighted content from a variety of sources for years, and considerable effort will be involved in cleaning them up. His comments demonstrate that he has a distorted understanding of how copyright functions, which is probably the root cause of this, and as such I wouldn't trust him to clean his own contributions. His actions to restore his deleted contributions and remove copyvio templates prevented the issue from being detected sooner, and are are making the cleanup twice as difficult as it needs to be, and he should be blocked at least for the duration of the cleanup. Moreover, I would not unblock him unless he promises to cease copying content from external sources altogether - I don't trust him to distinguish public domain sources from copyrighted ones with any degree of reliability. This is unfortunate because he does also contribute original content, but a necessary precaution to enable the cleanup to proceed without disruption and without new copyvios being added. Dcoetzee 04:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
User says he is retired, but did not go gracefully. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 05:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd have to say that saddens me somewhat. I have had generally positive interactions with Allstarecho in the past. I do agree that copyright is a serious issue, and we need to tread carefully when copying text and pictures from other sources. I certainly wish he had handled this better. sigh. 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
It'd been handled better if I hadn't been wiki-hounded all fucking day. I mean, look at my talk page history. And just to ease some people's fetish with the idea that I don't understand copyright: I do. Most of these g'damn articles were done in my wiki-infancy. Any newer ones which may be in question, I don't agree that statistical facts (dates, percentages, times and related words to explain such facts) is copyrightable.. just like a textual logo isn't copyrightable. But whatever, I'm done with the Wiki. I've had all I can stand of the wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking I got in one day - no, not even a full one day, more like the bombardment I got in the span of about 7 hours. No need to reply or try and explain any of your own interpretations of copyright to me because frankly, I don't give a shite anymore and am now, with this last post, retired.. so if you waste the finger strokes, you're just preaching to the choir. - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 05:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Nicely done....we have pushed away ANOTHER good editor over some minor BS. Allstar was and is one of the better editors here at Wikipedia and it is a sad day when the good editors say "to hell with it" and walk away because of pointless minor BS and no one says a damned thing about it. Pathetic. - NeutralHomerTalk • 06:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Copyright isn't minor BS, and he will be back. ViridaeTalk 07:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
    • There's nothing good about pasting text from copyrighted sources onto Wikipedia. This contributor was advised years ago that this was against policy, but as recently as May 24th copied [15] and many of its subpages onto Wikipedia, removing the {{copyvio}} template from the article that was placed by an administrator (not me). That he chooses to view the clean-up of this as persecution just verifies the problem to me. What are we supposed to do when it's been proven that a contributor has pasted text against policy on Wikipedia? Look the other way? He has ignored or rejected correction on this issue with hostility at every point I've seen. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
      • This kind of thing is potentially a very serious problem. I see that AllStar has been blocked, but that's just the tip of the copyright iceberg. I have seen various articles over time (by many editors) that "read like copyright violations", but how do you go about proving it? Thanks to endless sites parroting wikipedia, finding the original source can be very difficult. You take a suspicious-sounding phrase put it into Google, find hundreds of entries containing it, check each one to see if they are wikipedia parrots or not, and maybe you'll find the original. So you repair the article and hope that's reflected eventually in the mirroring sites. OK, that's 1 down, a few million to go. It's the proliferation that's really the problem - the same problem as with copyrighted images. Someday wikipedia might get sued over this kind of thing, if they haven't been already. But that's also just the tip of the iceberg. It is so incredibly easy to copy-and-paste on the internet, how can an author who publishes on the internet have any realistic expectation of it not being proliferated, regardless of his theoretical legal rights? This will be an interesting issue for the Supreme Court to tackle someday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
        • If they ever abolish copyright, my Wiki day will be a lot more fun. :) We are trying to organize this sort of thing. Dcoetzee made a program that surveys contributions, and we've been using successfully at WP:COPYCLEAN. All true, what you say about finding the original source. It's tedious work. There are mechanical plagiarism detectors that I utilize, but they don't eliminate Wiki mirrors. Maybe someday we'll get one of our own that does. Even cutting out the mirrors we know about would simplify things enormously. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
          • A number of years ago, probably in the early days of the VCR, comedian Robert Klein was doing an HBO standup special. He "warned" people watching at home not to tape the show, as it was a copyright violation. He then went on to point out that that violation was on roughly the same level of illegality as "tearing a tag off your mattress". And as a practical matter, that's what the internet has done. I have seen occasional images which were protected from downloading, but generally that's not done. Youtube seems to have the right idea - you can view it but not download it (as far as I know). But text is usually written in text form rather than as an image, so technologically (though not legally) you can do anything you want with it. The courts might eventually have to settle question of whether the burden of protection is on the original poster - i.e. if he doesn't protect the text somehow, then he shouldn't complain that it gets proliferated. I suspect the law is far behind the technology on this issue. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
            • Not true. YouTube videos are easily downloaded [16], and in some cases converted to friendlier formats [17] (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
            • As long as we keep Wikipedia safe while the jurists sort it out, it's all good (from a copyright standpoint that is; the whole plagiarism thing is a different, much debated story). Personally, I think the policies in place do a very good job of demonstrating due diligence, and we've got some contributors who put a lot of time into enforcing them even though I know from past conversations that some of them actually support the abolition of intellectual property laws (or, at least, the radical overhaul and relaxation of them). --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
        • When I first saw this thread my reaction was much like Neutral Homer's, & I almost posted something along those lines... but for some reason I sat on my hands & didn't. I'm glad of my silence: repeated copyright infringements does not do anyone any good, & AllStarEcho's best response would have been to say something like, "Oops, I did all of that early on when I didn't know any better. Sorry." And if fixing this got too stressful, take a lengthy break. Most of the regulars here have an otherwise positive opinion of AllStarEcho, & if he were to admit his mistakes, promise not to do it again, I suspect he'd be given another chance. But his ranting above about "wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking" doesn't help his case. (And before anyone thinks I'm without sin, I keep wondering when someone will start looking carefully at some of the first articles I wrote. Especially since many of them are practically identical to what I wrote 6 years ago. If that ever happens, I promise to try to handle that kind of examination with more grace.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Given that the user has extensively damaged Wikipedia by uploading hundreds of copyright violations over several years, which may take months of effort to clean up... given that he continues to remove warnings and templates regarding copyright... given that the user shows no remorse or inclination to change any of this behavior... given that he has said he has retired and has no interest in editing... and given that he turned his userpage into a terrifically offensive attack page against people who challenge him on any of his behavior... Given all this, I have blocked the user indefinitely. If he wants to unretire and promises not to copy-and-paste any more material from random web sources, then I will unblock him (or anyone else can). – Quadell (talk) 11:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

On a related note, User:Allstarecho/regularmaintained will be helpful in this cleanup. From this list, I've already identified Frank Frost as a direct copyvio of this.  Frank  |  talk  12:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I was a bit hasty on this one. Thanks to User:Voceditenore for pointing this out.  Frank  |  talk  13:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
The source of that article is this NYT piece dated 1999. Cf our article. "Over the years, cigarettes and alcohol wore Frost down but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues: A Musical Pilgrimage to the Crossroads and Crossroads." NYT, "Cigarettes and alcohol wore Mr. Frost down over the years, but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues and Crossroads." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Just out of interest are you now going to block yourself, or some other admin going to do it for the blatant and deliberate copyright violation above. You did get permission from the copyright holder to publish the above didn't you? After all there was no necessity for you to quote any of that, the links were there for anyone else to see the above text. --WebHamster 11:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. It's likely to be a long haul. We have a program we use at WP:COPYCLEAN (developed to clean up the problem at User:GrahamBould, I think) that lists the contributions of a user prioritized by size. Once that's run, I'll be opening an investigation tab at the copyright cleanup project to help structure investigation. All contributors most welcome. :D --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Could someone with the buttons look at the header that comes up when editing Allstarecho's user & talk pages? Doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should stay in place. AthanasiusQuicumque vult 15:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant User:Allstarecho/Editnotice and User talk:Allstarecho/Editnotice. Don't know if these subpages stay for a blocked user or not. AthanasiusQuicumque vult 16:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow; it's true what they say: you learn something new every day. Now I know how that's done :-) Anyway, I'm not sure what should be done there or why. Can someone show a policy or precedent regarding the editnotice and whether or not it should be removed? Allstarecho is not banned, as far as I know, and I'm not certain even that would warrant deletion. I think he could return at any time and be unblocked (OK, not in that order), and I'm not sure there's a need to dig into this right now.  Frank  |  talk  17:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This comes as a surprise; hadn't been watching the noticeboard in a day. If Allstarecho takes a few simple steps would support a negotiated unblock. Ball's in his court; door remains open. DurovaCharge! 20:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

On scanning this yesterday and the day before I thought "Ok, this can't be that bad, he's a longstanding editor in...". I stand suprised.
Perhaps we should launch a sitenotice campaign to remind all editors about the copyright policy, and offer an amnesty period ("Just tell us about it now, we'll clean it up.").
Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Given that the primary idea is to protect Wikipedia, I'd heartily support both...especially since we can have reason to hope that a contributor who self-discloses means to follow policy henceforth. With this particular editor, I think I'd be uncomfortable with anything short of supervision, given that he has demonstrated contempt for copyright in his editing and in his parting shot (or one of them, anyway). Perfectly fine to despise copyright laws. Using Wikipedia as a forum to demonstrate that, by pasting others' text here particularly when multiple editors have advised of policy, is flatly disruptive to a dangerous degree, no matter what constructive contributions he might also have made. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Having slept on the matter, there's more to be said. The 'open door' is in need of oil at the hinge. Allstarecho has taken an unusually strict stand about copyright compliance regarding another editor, and Allstarecho repeated that hard line about copyright toward the other editor as recently as last week. Until yesterday Allstarecho's position seemed worthy of respect, but now it is clear he was raising the bar very high for someone he disliked, while setting it unacceptably low for himself. Diffs are available upon request. If Allstarecho changes his mind about retirement I would support him, but in addition to the usual concerns that need to be worked out with a habitual copyright violator he will need to address this double standard--which occurs on the very same topic that caused his indefinite block. DurovaCharge! 15:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidently Allstarecho has requested unblocking already (and been declined). I remain concerned about his attitude towards copyright. Even after requesting unblocking, he said, "Most of it was a misunderstanding. I still don't see how statistical facts can be copyrighted. Facts are facts, period." I trust that anyone with knowledge of copyright law will recognize that there is plenty of copyrightable, creative text in such "statistical facts" as "Indian Summer Spiced Wheat Ale is a light profile American-style wheat ale spiced with Orange Peel and Coriander. The recipe uses a mix of wheat and pale barley. This beer is very lightly hopped to allow the spices to shine through. Clean fermenting yeast produce a very dry, crisp base to further accentuate the spices. The aroma has a distinct citrus note without being overly fruity", text which this contributor copied to Wikipedia from (one of multiple pages copied from that site; and more statistical facts that can't be copyrighted from April of this year). This is only one of many, and the clean-up on this has only just been initiated at WP:COPYCLEAN. I have found duplicated text already in possibly up to a dozen articles, and I suspect that there will be much, much more. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Agreed: all the usual concerns apply. In addition, the issue of double standards also needs to be addressed. If you have a list I could work from to lend a hand with the cleanup, let me know how I can help. DurovaCharge! 15:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, please. :) Anybody and everybody welcome. There is a section open for him at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Copyright_Cleanup/Contributor_surveys#Allstarecho. Helpful instructions are on the first subpage, Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Allstarecho. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Rolls up sleeves. DurovaCharge! 15:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

*I am going to ask that everyone stop and actually read the damned page you are linking to before calling it a copyvio. In reference to the Southwest Mississippi Community College page (that Durova has tagged), this link is supposed the copyvio. Nothing on that page is copied, verbatim or near verbatim, onto Southwest Mississippi Community College. That does not a copyvio make. I think we need to actually read the pages before calling a copyvio or not nominate them at all. I also believe that in the case listed in this post, we own Allstarecho an apology for saying it was a copyvio when it wasn't. - NeutralHomerTalk • 23:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

    • Obviously the wrong link was posted. That was corrected almost immediately by Durova, but missed by me. Once corrected, I see, quite clearly, the copyvio. Sadly, I must agree with the community on this one. :( Delete away. My apologizes. - NeutralHomerTalk • 23:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I can understand your initial confusion here, but I can't honestly support the idea that anyone who mistags something contributed by Allstarecho as a copyvio would owe him an apology. I can point out quite a bit of text that he has contributed that is. WP:AGF only works when there isn't "strong evidence to the contrary", and suspicion of his contributions is extremely reasonable at this juncture. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Before seeing the correct link I thought an apology was needed, but after seeing the correct link, I now see that an apology is not necessary. I stuck that part with the rest above. Again, my apologizes for the confusion caused by my struck post above, I will be more cautious and check the links more than once before posting. - NeutralHomerTalk • 00:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
          • Apologies for the confusion. Nominations for deletion are something I rarely do. Was having trouble with the Twinkle interface, and simultaneously copied the wrong URL by accident. DurovaCharge! 04:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Indefinite block, reset[edit]

Given that (1) this contributor has requested unblocking several times due to the blocking conditions set by User:Quadell, "Anyone may unblock if he wants to unretire and promises not to copy and paste copyrighted content into Wikipedia anymore", and that further evaluation has disclosed more significant infringement than Quadell may have known and that further conversation here suggests that there may be more involved in an unblock than that simple statement and that (2) this contributor persists in asserting (as discussed above and at his talk page) that he has not violated copyright because the text he has placed can't be governed by copyright, I have reset his block and left a note on his talk page explaining why. I would request that anyone considering unblocking him do so carefully in light of the fact that he has shown no remorse or even recognition that he has violated policy and was advised of (and ignored) policy many years ago. He may say that he will not place copyrighted text on the project, but if he believes that copyright cannot protect material such as he has placed, then he cannot be trusted to comply as he can't be trusted to recognize what is copyrighted and what is not. I do not consider myself involved in spite of his personal attack on me, as my only involvement with him has been in relation to these copyright infringements. But I bring it up here anyway for others to evaluate. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

  • I feel bad saying this because I quite like Allstarecho, but support indef, especially in light of this rather worrisome edit summary: "...I am officially retired.. as this user anyway. ; bye bye."] I don't know if that means he will create sockpuppets, whether he already has an alternate account, both, or neither and it's just another parting shot. It may be worth a CU poking around in case socks do exist and are being used. This whole mess has been rather sad. //roux   04:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Could we wait a bit before boldfacing supports or opposes? Afterward he posted FYI, as far as socks, Ive posted under my IP a few times in my life but only cuz I forgot to log in. The latest was at Talk:Autofellatio, Friday. Transparency. So you can sleep better at night knowing I'm not running around socking up the Wiki.[18] We all know how this usually goes: an editor feels cornered, responds aggressively. Maybe doesn't even mean it and regrets it the next day, but by that time the ball is rolling and an indef converts to a siteban. Yes there are problems here: serious ones he needs to acknowledge. Wikitime can be brutal, though. DurovaCharge! 05:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Durova's right. I doubt anyone would support Allstarecho being unblocked without some preconditions, and perhaps he'll agree once he's calmed down and if he returns. AniMatedraw 10:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Let's build a path back with caveats that restoring someone else's copyvio edits is also problematic, intentional or not. I suggest too a bit of empathy as my wee brain recalls their home burned to ashes not too long ago and I believe they live in the US South, Mississippi, which likely is a major suckfest economicly. There may be some real life issues trimming the fuse short. This does not excuse everything but we can at least pretend that behind that heat is a passion for what they believe and that same energy that has generally been constructive here can still be directed toward our collective goals. In dominatrix-speak it's an attitude adjustment! -- Banjeboi 12:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I support civility and empathy, but in evaluating his constructiveness, I think we need to consider what has previously not been recognized: that a number of his articles have been built with content pasted in large or small scale from other sources. He may have been a stellar vandalism fighter, but he has been working outside policy for a long time even though he had every reason to know what policy was. This can't be put down to a short fuse, I'm afraid. Further, his ongoing talkpage dialog does not seem to me to demonstrate any awareness that he has created a problem or why. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
        • I would refer you to Durova's comment at the top of this subsection; He was sufficiently aware of copyright issues to use it against another editors violation of policy. I have no clue as to his motives, since my knowledge of him comes from his interactions on the noticeboards, Jimbo's talkpage and AIV, and while he seemed fine (if somewhat "sparky") there the disregard - I can't think of any other phrase - for a core policy and the potential trouble for the project that might incur leaves me to feel that any return to editing will need be heavily monitored/mentored. Given his two responses in the thread I don't feel that he will willingly accept such conditions. It is a pity in respect of the good work he has done, but perhaps it would be best if the editor and WP remain estranged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
          • We're too willing to cut people loose, which neither addresses the problem nor helps WP:ENC. Clearly Allstar has lost his admin standing, but I'm with Durova's more, "Can he be rehabilitated?" line of query than with the calls of "Cut this cancer off". Situations where there are no signs of intentional malice or disruption call for firm kindness. -->David Shankbone 20:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
            • As pointed out above, he was notified of copyright policies years ago and as recently as a week ago removed without comment a note from another administrator pointing out the issue and requesting his assistance cleaning up. He has multiple times removed without comment warnings placed by Corensearchbot. These may not be signs of intentional malice, but they're troublesome. Further, Durova seems to suggest that he is familiar enough with copyright concept to hold another contributor to it, which would make it puzzling why he would not know himself that he cannot copy from newspapers and websites unless these are properly licensed or public domain. I do not say that Allstarecho cannot be rehabilitated, but I have asked that any administrator who unblocks him does so carefully in light of the circumstances and ensure that his statement that he won't infringe further recognizes what the problem is and how not to continue it. I have myself offered to supervise indef-blocked copyright problem editors and seen them go on to productive contributions, but it does take willingness and time on both sides. (I don't think that Allstarecho was ever an administrator, but perhaps I'm mistaken.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
            • A massive amount of good faith has been extended to AllStarecho. If you review the dialogue on his talk page, you'll find literally hours of my time just in calmly explaining to him what the situation is. It's a long, tedious dialog which would probably take more than an hour to piece together and read coherently, and took plenty longer than that to unfold. My point in collecting this (really just the tip of the iceberg) is that I would like it to be seen that there is recognition of the value of Allstarecho's past contributions and that there is definitely the presumption that he can come back and be productive within policy. It's really up to him. I remain of the belief that he can be a net positive to the project - if he wants to be. So far, he hasn't expressed that desire.  Frank  |  talk  00:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Is now a good time to confess that I haven't taken any of my photographs? Seriously, this is a sad case and I hope everyone overlooks any recent outbursts by Allstar, and recognizes a long, productive, and honorable history. That the honor is being called into question undoubtedly raised his hackles, especially, as I suspect, he seems truly ignorant of the copyright issues involved. I'd prefer to see a more formal RFC-U, with or without his participation, with whatever has been found out. A gentle RFC-U. I think he's earned that rather than Trial by ANI. -->David Shankbone 17:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Whether or not to leave Allstarecho indef blocked is a tricky question because it's difficult to discern his mental state and intentions. There are a lot of people here who are motivated to see him rehabilitated - and I have seen Moonriddengirl successfully rehabilitate long-term copyright violators before - but it's an arduous process of continuous review and education, and it starts with an admission of error and a willingness to learn, which Allstarecho has unfortunately not demonstrated. I might support for the time being an article-space block - no editing of articles, but discussion pages and project pages are okay. This would have to be enforced by monitoring. Dcoetzee 22:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I was thinking something similar that they be allowed to continue there non-article building work - which seems fine - but that article building, mainly the Mississippi ones, needs to be done in userspace with each being launched once reviewed. In effect we would get the vetting needed, they would still get credit, and possibly DYK brownie points and when issues arise they can be dealt with in a less heated way from all perspectives since article space is not compromised. For existing articles they can post suggestions with sources to the atlkpages and others can add them in or review to allow ASE to do so once vetted. -- Banjeboi 02:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Benjiboi's suggestion sounds very reasonable to me. LadyofShalott 02:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good to me as well. - NeutralHomerTalk • 02:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  • A ban from articles? I see the intention, but oh dear. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Maybe just until he can be trusted again. Hell, I had to earn everyone's trust back after coming back from my indef block and in some cases I am still earning it. If we go with Benjiboi's idea, with the vetting of articles and ASE creating them in his userspace, I say give him 6 months of it. Then let him back in. - NeutralHomerTalk • 03:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
      • First, I would only support such a move with indication from Allstarecho that he understands the issue. I don't see how mentorship could work without an open-minded approach, and so far I have only seen him defending his contributions as not copyrightable. Second, before such a measure can be enacted, an uninvolved contributor with a good understanding of copyright and time to evaluate these concerns would need to agree to review these edits. Third, I don't believe that a specific time would be helpful. For the sake of argument, presume that the problem here is difficulty grasping the distinction between uncopyrightable fact and copyrightable expression. If he still has this problem in six months, releasing him from mentorship would obviously be irresponsible. On the other hand, if he demonstrates in three months that he understands what can and cannot be used and shows an ability to paraphrase material without infringing copyright, continuing direct monitoring would make no sense. The purpose isn't punitive, but protective, and pre-approved article building should continue for whatever time it's needed. Finally, whatever person mentors him should ideally also be willing to look back in at some point after the restriction is lifted to ensure that the problem has not resumed. We can't presume that it will not when a contributor, any contributor, has continued pasting material into the project after having been told to stop. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict) I think the concern is that we should be fostering good article writing behavior, and a ban from articlespace may be seen to foster, well, posting to ANI or XfD. The only way ASE is going to regain the trust of the community is through hard work and proven example that the same behavior has been corrected. I don't see a system of userspace-vetting-move working out; it's unduly restrictive on ASE to make good contributions under such terms, it's a waste of time for those who have to confirm his contribs, and it might not even satisfy everyone as of course someone who understands copyright (as the double standard situation suggests) will behave well when watched. If ASE can work without a net, then I think that'll carry weight, and this current indef block may necessitate that be on another Wikimedia project for a period of time. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 11:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

If Allstarecho says (1) that he wants to unretire, (2) that he recognizes that what he did was wrong and won't do it again, and (3) that he's willing to be mentored by someone who's willing to spend the time looking through his contribs for violations, then sure, it'd be great to have him back. Tellingly, he hasn't agreed to any of the three, and he has been insulting and hostile to anyone who has suggested it. I also think he owes Moonriddengirl a pretty big apology for (among other things) calling her a "cunt", and I personally wouldn't unblock him unless he offers one. But that's just me -- others may find such incivility more tolerable that I do, I don't know. – Quadell (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


I approached ASE with Banjeboi's idea of having ASE create articles in userspace and have them approved and moved to mainspace until he earns the community's trust back. I also offered to work with him via the mentor program. He could easily tell me to take a hike, but if he thinks this is a good idea (and granted I am not an admin), I think should consider it and let this good editor come back from a bad situation like others let me come back from my situation in 2008. - NeutralHomerTalk • 05:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Atollardo persists in removing speedy delete tags from pages they created.[edit]

This user has been warned 5-7 times in the last 2 weeks about rtemovingt speedy delete templates yet keeps on doings so. I would suggest a short term block. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 23:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

He sure has been, doesn't look like he answers those warnings in any way either, maybe a block would encourage this user to discuss the matter instead of just edit warring.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
from the backtrack he keeps recreating csd deleted pages. I have nominated two others as well but admin may want to look at his contribn log. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 23:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Looking. Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll give him a final warning. His edits seem infrequent enough that a short-term block wouldn't have much effect. Hersfold (t/a/c) 00:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Bad move reverts[edit]

Resolved: Script misfire (?), feel free to re-implement moves. –xenotalk 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I checked my watchlist and saw this, a revert of my moves to article space, fixing naming, renaming per GAN, etc.:

  1. (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Henry Fielding's early plays to Talk:Henry Fielding's Early Plays over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  2. (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved The Covent-Garden Tragedy to The Covent Garden Tragedy over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  3. (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:The Covent-Garden Tragedy to Talk:The Covent Garden Tragedy over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  4. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved East Coker (poem) to User:Ottava Rima/East Coker (poem) over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  5. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Little Gidding (poem) to User:Ottava Rima/Little Gidding (poem) over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  6. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Sermons of Jonathan Swift to Sermons of Dean Swift over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  7. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Sermons of Jonathan Swift to Talk:Sermons of Dean Swift over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  8. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Wikipedia:Peer review/Sermons of Jonathan Swift/archive1 to Wikipedia:Peer review/Sermons of Dean Swift/archive1 over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  9. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Nicolo Giraud to Nicolò Giraud over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  10. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Nicolo Giraud to Talk:Nicolò Giraud over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  11. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Christopher Smart's asylum confinement to Christopher Smart's alleged madness over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
  12. (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Christopher Smart's asylum confinement to Talk:Christopher Smart's alleged madness over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)

Ottava Rima (talk) 02:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

For convenience: TownDown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
It looks like Slackr (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) already left them a message asking them to explain themselves [19] (probably ec'd with you). If they don't respond in due time I gather you can safely re-implement these moves while we await a response (could have been a script misfire, for example). –xenotalk 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
And it looks like they've already responded and even apologized [20]. Mistakes happen. Shell babelfish 02:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't blaming him. I just wanted to make sure that the pages could be restored to their proper names, hence why he wasn't named as causing any problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
So move them back? I guess I don't understand what needed admin attention here. If there's a particular article that can't be moved back, that's one thing but you really didn't given any information about what you wanted. Shell babelfish 02:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I believe soap (talk · contribs) has reversed the moves, but if any targets require g6'ing, let us know. –xenotalk 02:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused. I'm really glad that it was resolved. I'm pretty sure I won't do it again. --TownDown How's it going? 03:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Alleged abuse of admin powers by Stifle[edit]

Resolved: No abuse here. Icestorm815Talk 18:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Reopening: the page still needs to be unprotected. DurovaCharge! 22:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Trying to end a discussion after just a few hours is inappropriate and goes against WP:CONSENSUS. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

A controversial DRV was closed, saying it could be recreated, provbided work was done at the time.


This is impossible, because Stifle has protected the page.

Surelly, using his admin powers to protect a page like that, to enforce a more extreme view thn the closer of the DRV - but a view he advocated for - is completely inappropriate. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Surely s/he will unprotect on request after seeing the amended and appropriate version of the article? –xenotalk 16:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't see even a hint of admin abuse here. The DRV ended as "no consensus to overturn" and the page was protected as a redirect. If you wish to follow through with the second part of the DRV's result "Editors wishing to recreate this article should so in a way which substantially alters it from its pre-Afd state, making it ineligible for WP:CSD#G4", start an article in your userspace. --auburnpilot talk 16:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Exactly, "no consensus to overturn" means "keep deleted". It should not be recreated in article-space until it can be shown to not fall under a speedy criteria. The DRV was very clear. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 17:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
It's kind of telling that the user who undid the redirect is claiming that this protection is admin abuse. I don't think the protection is strictly necessary (it's not like anyone was edit warring in the face of the consensus; Stifle's protection was preemptive), but I'm wary of unprotecting it based on Shoemaker's Holiday's request with no draft in place. Mangojuicetalk 17:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any abuse of Admin powers here, but I might not be the best person to ask at the moment. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
This editor seems to have a history of confrontational editing (see contribs, almost any talkspace, no need to post specific diffs). No evidence of admin abuse at all. Tan | 39 17:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Sigh. Nice of Shoemaker's Holiday to notify me of this discussion. I don't think I have anything to answer for; if someone presents a draft of a new article, I'll either unprotect or suggest a new DRV. Stifle (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, no abuse here. – Quadell (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • P.S. - if people aren't paying attention, it is obvious that Stifle was CoI'd from protecting the page. He voted to "keep as redirect". By protecting the page, he clearly protected to his preferred version. This is 100% abuse of admin tools and a desysop has happened in such cases. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Content tangentially related to the present topic[edit]

Nothing here is actionable. Please move on to more approperiate venues and boards.
  • The page protection was not warranted and goes against our standards for page protection. Seeing some of the people claiming that it was not an abuse with their tract record (especially Tan) is telling on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Ah, quite the accusation. I'll dismiss it, considering the source. For the record, it's "track", not "tract". Unless you were referring to somewhere where you thought I abused a list of land parcels. Tan | 39 21:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Coming from the notorious "I lied my way through RfA" Tanthalas, the accusation against Shoemaker above was 100% inappropriate. The fact that you, of all people, would try to smear someone and claim knowledge about how things work around here is highly inappropriate. Then, there the little fact that Shoemaker has actually created encyclopedic content. When was the last time you tried to actually contribute in a worth while manner? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Where did I say I lied? Can you provide diffs on either my statement of that, or verification that I lied? I'm about to take this accusation damn seriously - and consider it a de facto violation of WP:NPA - unless you can provide proof. Garnering an influential RfA voter's support through ingratiation is a lot different than your accusation. Tan | 39 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I love how you say that, and yet it has been said regularly at the WT:RFA for quite a long time now. You are -the- example of gaming RfA. Do I need proof? No, as your RfA states many answers that you lied about because you felt that it was best to pretend about what kind of character you have to get through RfA and feed people what they want to hear. My my, you are suddenly unproud of it. I love how you try to call it "ingratiation". If you really believe your actions were right, why not submit yourself for RfA and allow the results to stick? You still haven't answered when you last actually bothered to create content. Do you actually do anything but cause drama and misrepresent yourself to get more power? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The above isn't helpful. Take it to your respective talk pages, perhaps? –xenotalk 21:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Xeno, this deals 100% with credibility of Tan to make accusations against Shoemaker. You are also involved in the discussion above, so your "collapse" is highly inappropriate. You really should know better. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
You assaulting Tan with WR'esque memes adds nothing to this discussion. Several other admins other than Tan agreed that there was no abuse here. Per my usual, you may have the last word on this. –xenotalk 21:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I appeal to the community to determine if I should be tolerating these obvious character assassination attempts by Ottava. As far as I've interpreted for the past couple years, this is quite obviously a blatant violation of Wikipedia policy. Tan | 39 21:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Xeno, several other admin did not attack Shoemaker's integrity like that. Also, there was a clear CoI, which cannot be hidden behind. He voted and then page protected. That is 100% against the page protection standards. ArbCom has desysopped quite a few people doing that very thing lately. And Tan admits to "ingratiating", i.e. misrepresenting himself to game an election. I wonder what Jimbo would think about that. Perhaps we should just ask him directly - "Jimbo, if someone pretends to feel a way and claims that they wont be doing something at RfA then admits that they were saying that just to be elected, do you feel they should keep the ops? Especially when they have since had a track record of just inflaming discussions at ANI, attacking content contributors, and making it difficult for people to even want to be a part of this community?" I am sure there is one obvious response. Tan, if you feel that you did the right thing, go ahead and relist yourself at RfA. If not, that will be admission that you are a liar and are too afraid of being possibly held accountable. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
If you wish to alert Jimbo, do it. If you wish to start on RfC on my conduct, in my RfA or elsewhere, do it. If you wish to present evidence, do it. However, as it is, these are unsubstantiated, sustained personal attacks, and again, I appeal to the community to judge this. Tan | 39 22:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with Xeno. It is well-known that Ottava Rima frequented Wikipedia Review and is now making WR-like accusations here. That type of behaviour has no place at ANI. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
In my RfA, Ottava Rima accused me of being a drama queen, so this is kind of fun to watch. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
And the community denied you for it. You, like Tan, just sit at ANI and cause problems and attack people mercilessly. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
WR-like accusations? Do a search for Tan's name at WT:RFA. The people who make the claims against Tan are in the dozens. Tan even admitted that he misrepresented himself to the community at RfA. And does WR make content? No. They attack people like Tan attacks people. Gaming the system, making attacks against good content editors, and friends with those like Xeno, a WR member. I wouldn't be surprised if Tan was one. It sure would be interesting. The fact that he wont list himself up for reconfirmation only verifies that he knows what he did was wrong and that the community wont accept him as an admin again. He already admitted to manipulating the community. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The personal attacks continue. May I please get some intervention/action here? He has presented no evidence of anything, made many accusations, and is clearly in direct, blatant, intentional violation of NPA. I'm clearly not the civility police admin, and it would be hypocritical of me to state that I've never lashed out. However, this is sustained and extremely personal - he is assaulting my integrity. Again, for the third time, I appeal to the community to judge this. Tan | 39 22:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Personal attacks? I am attacking your action. Therefore, it does not fit the definition of a personal attack. You know it. I know it. The community knows it. However, making false accusations of personal attacks is a violation of Civil. You have violated it four times so far. That is more than enough for a standard block. Are you going to continue? So far, you have violated Civil against Shoemaker and now me. So, we have you admitting that you misrepresented yourself at RfA, which is the definition of lying, then you are causing problems here and chasing away a content editor (Shoemaker), and you are also attacking people (myself and Shoemaker) in a similar manner that you have attacked hundreds of editors at ANI. Do you really think what you are doing is appropriate? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm just wondering why OR has not been blocked yet. All of this brouhaha over an article about the plot of Les Miserables? Absurd. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Read what Durova stated below. The "brouhaha" is about CoI abuse then a group of admin who don't create content and just stay on ANI acting as if there wasn't a problem. We are an encyclopedia first and foremost, and this was unacceptable. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I have nothing further to add. My appeal to the Wikipedia community to judge the above precedings stands. Tan | 39 22:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
It's Ottava's usual bile, and something should be done about it. That admins refuse to do so is highly educational. I'm not sure, but I think the policy runs thus: the more eephants we have in the room, the more weight we have compressing everything we've swept under the rug. //roux   00:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Roux, last time I checked you have done almost nothing but cause problems here. Go look up the definition of "ingratiate" and actually pay attention to WT:RFA before you dare try a stunt like that again. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


Because two people above are making it clear that they are unable to see the elephant in the room that has been known about at ANI, AN, and RfA, lets just post it so we can rehash some old business. Now, let see Tan testify for himself (from [ here):

Quote - "While you're right that I did "admit" to gaming the system, I feel that that statement definitely misrepresents me and my intentions here. I spend a lot of volunteer time on here - improving articles, cleaning up, blocking vandals, helping new editors, and generally trying to make Wikipedia a credible place. Sure, I don't agree with some of you guys sometimes, and I've never been one to go out of my way to join any of the Wiki-clubs, except for Keep's now-defunct page (and that was through admin coaching). What did I game? Well, simply put, I needed Balloonman's support in my second RfA, or it was going to fail, regardless of my intent, knowledge, or performance. Was it malicious? No. Was it even totally fake? No. I identified the crux of the next RfA, and solved it. I don't know if my performance since then has disappointed you, and if it has, I hope you would come to my talk page and tell me what the problem is. I've always respected you as an editor and as an admin, and I truly want you to understand my reasons for being here. Tan | 39 21:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC) "

Mind you, he thinks that he lied and cheated his way to adminship for the right reasons. What are some of those reasons? Well, inflaming situations and attacking some of our most valuable content editors to the point that they retire. I think it is obvious to everyone that Tan has overstepped his bounds and cost this encyclopedia far more than he can ever give. Anything short of putting himself for reconfirmation would be inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The reason it's so interesting to see you mudslinging with Tan is that the both of you opposed my RfA on the grounds of my allegedly creating drama. You're creating more drama than I can even imagine creating. What a hypocrite you are! This thread is nothing more than a food fight, and should be closed ASAP. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Drama? No. Drama is long term. This is momentary and dealing straight at the issue. You, like Tan and others, respond to many ANI threads and do very little outside of that. Admin shouldn't be those who participate in places like this in a manner that results in chasing our main content contributors off this project. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Calling people liars and such is unacceptable, and is unworthy of any editor. And no one forced that other editor to leave, he chose to do so because he couldn't get his way. Long term? I have seen you on here many times, and you're always angry about something, always stoking the flames. Anger is not productive, not beneficial to wikipedia. Spare us your hypocritical lectures. Go clean up your own act. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The term "liar" only comes up once, and it was not used to state that I think he is a liar. One can lie without being a liar. Misrepresenting yourself is a lie, regardless if you decorate it as "ingratiate". The above is an admittance that what he did to get Balloonman's support was wrong, and he was called out about it just before. This happened about the same time. It wasn't a coincidence, and people everywhere know exactly what happened. And if I am always angry about something, how come I have so many FAs, GAs, and DYKs? And I am constantly prepping new pages in my user space? Seems like I wouldn't have time to fit that into my busy schedule of being angry. Hell, I find it odd how I can be working on three pages for FAC, 12 for GAN, and another two sets of 8 DYKs right now while being so angry all the time. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Admittedly, it's a miracle. Oh, hey, I was amused by your earlier self-congratulatory comment about contributing to defeating me (or rather to keeping my plurality too small to win) for an adminship that I didn't want in the first place, and want even less now, as I would have to be dealing with the likes of you on a daily basis. I've gotten that haughty attitude from a number of opposers who thought I might actually care. It turns out I can be a much more effective vandal hunter without adminship. And as one admin I admire told me, I would be a much more responsible admin than many of them here. But you didn't want that, so you've got me as is. You confuse outspokenness with irresponsibility. I have never abused the semi-admin authorities I already do have. So my not being an admin is your loss, not mine. As for you and Tanthalas, hypocrites that you both are, it would be interesting to put the two of you into a fish tank, like a couple of bettas, and see which one survives. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I didn't defeat you nor does my voice have any sway at RfA. My record at RfA can testify to that. So, you have no reason to care about what my response was at your RfA. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I can care about anything I feel like, but you don't necessarily know what I'm actually caring about at a given moment. Meanwhile, as I said at the RfA, the oppose votes were very useful, some because they were actually helpful advice (which yours most assuredly was not) and some because they revealed a lot about the character of the opposers (which yours most assuredly did). >:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Ottava Rima: what do you want? Are you wanting Tanthalas39 blocked? Restricted? Admonished? Desysopped? Beaten with a stick? Only a couple of those can be accomplished here. Please, be specific. If you don't like his behavior, or you feel something needs to be corrected, that's the purpose of a request for comment. I'm not seeing the point of this subthread. --auburnpilot talk 01:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
    I want him to apologize to Shoemaker for his inappropriate attack. Shoemaker retired in part over it, and this project needs Shoemaker back. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
    I am a bit disappointed that the user in question sees these deletion discussions as a "battle." Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 02:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
    Sorry to confuse you, A Nobody, but this thread is in response to Tan being upset that I criticized the people that were critical of Shoemaker. The first section and the last section deal with Stifle, so you may want to move your comment up or down. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I still see zero "proof" (the title of this subheading) that I lied, misrepresented myself, or otherwise broke any Wikipedia policy whatsoever. I see continuous personal attacks with zero evidence from Ottava. Apparently, the community wishes to ignore that; I will go with whatever is consensus here. However, I will not respond any further to these baseless allegations. If you wish to do anything formal, go right ahead and let me know about it on my talk page. I'm done here. Tan | 39 03:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
You can claim such, but there is a clear admittance that you manipulated and mislead Balloonman. What do you think "gaming the system" means by chance? Playing with words and weaseling with rhetoric does not mean you are innocent. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Peace, please[edit]

Shoemaker's Holiday announced his retirement today. He has contributed three featured articles, nearly fifty featured pictures, and is Wikipedia's most prolific contributor of featured sounds. He was the Wikimedia Foundation's best editor at restoring etchings and engravings, and he was WMF's only editor who digitally restored wax cylinder recordings. For copyright reasons, often the only license-free versions of important music are on wax cylinders, and for historic performers that's all we'll ever have. Because of Shoemaker's Holiday, Wikipedia's readers can not only read about Enrico Caruso but also hear Caruso sing; because of Shoemaker's Holiday, we can listen to John Philip Sousa's music--with Sousa himself conducting.

Can we please learn from this? And would someone please unprotect the deleted page? When two featured article contributors say they can get enough sources to justify notability I think we can trust them. Here's hoping some of the things that were posted above weren't really meant in earnest, but were expressions of frustration by people who--justifiably--thought they had earned more credibility than they were receiving. A few retractions and olive branches would be very timely. DurovaCharge! 22:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Did you know that that many or most of Sousa's Band's recordings were actually conducted by Sousa's assistant, Arthur Pryor? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Shoemaker's research was excellent with that sort of thing. If you locate any flaw in his documentation please raise it at featured sound talk and ping my user talk page. DurovaCharge! 03:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
If he is a good and reasonable contributor, and if he still believes in wikipedia, then he should come back and try to put the general interests of wikipedia first, and try to ignore specific setbacks. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Bugs, you're a baseball guy. A good coach doesn't use his pitcher every game--especially not after a muscle strain. That might win a couple games but it'll burn out the arm. Same logic here. Give the fellow some water and a pat on the back, even if he lost his cool and shouted at the umpire. He's still a good player. DurovaCharge! 03:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I was working on saying and forgot to add that key point: that he should give himself a few days off, or whatever time is needed. Or think of Brett Favre, who has "retired" twice, un-"retired" once, and may be about to un-"retire" again. Time off can be good. It can revive the hunger. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Shoemaker isn't the kind of editor who retires every month. I'm really worried here. Let's be gracious and show appreciation for his good work, rather than apply additional pressure. DurovaCharge! 04:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
No pressure. He should take his time and decide what's best. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've unprotected as pages should not be preemptively protected. Starting with "admin abuse" was perhaps not the best way to initiate this request - WP:RFUP would have been a better venue if Shoemaker was seeking a neutral opinion on the propriety of the protection. –xenotalk 23:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your unprotection. DurovaCharge! 23:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Your first paragraph, Durova, is frankly meaningless. It doesn't matter if somebody has never written a featured article or has more featured stars than anybody else. When an article is deleted, and a deletion review confirms that there is no consensus to overturn the original result, the next step for somebody wanting to create that article is userspace. All the stars in the world do not earn you or anybody else special treatment. This entire episode is drama for drama's sake. --auburnpilot talk 23:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Quite the contrary - DRV are supposed to be weighed by quality of the statements, not quantity. We are not a democracy. Those that produce featured content who are weighing in to state that they will do something are given more weight. We are an encyclopedia first and foremost. Those that create content are given privileges because that is our main priority. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Obviously this situation could have been handled better by several people. Our shared mission, though, is to build an encyclopedia. This person's departure leaves the site poorer in valuable content skills that no one else has. Content work doesn't earn someone tickets to misbehave deliberately, yet his actions seem to stem from frustration rather than malice. Shoemaker's Holiday did major contributions in technical media few editors understood, and the site's consensus model doesn't handle that well: he often got the brush-off undeservedly. Let's learn from this and be better at listening to productive people who bring rare skills. DurovaCharge! 23:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
What is to be done about Stifle's protection will be up to arb com, I suppose, for use abuse of admin powers in a field where every knows he is deeply committed. It is every bit as bad as if someone with my views had personally reverted the deletion review close. I do acknowledge, however, that he expressed above his willingness to unprotect, or relist at DRV . Shoemaker did quite right in the manner in which he worked on the article, and was right to come here. This was not a routine matter for RFPP, this was blatant abuse by an administrator. and Shoemaker's departure is something to held against Stifle, and equally against those who defend him here. I am equally concerned about the closing of that DRV, for Sceptre as a non-admin had no business closing that AfD, especially as he did it via G4, which he as a non admin can suggest, but not actually delete under. The only possible result for a DRV in circumstances like that was relisting. That it was closed without any reason given for why that matter was ignored was not helpful of the closer. But even more than dealing with Stifle, we need to deal with get Shoemaker back. DGG (talk) 00:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Somewhat related ,but user:ChrisO gave up his admin bits today as well. His last edit was to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Blacketer controversy. seicer | talk | contribs 01:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible ARBMAC issue[edit]

Being in a new-user-bad-name-scanning state of mind the past few days, I happened across User:XXxLRKistxXx a short ago. Based on the first two edits (user page and talk page) it appeared to be a possible problematic non-NPOV editor. Following up on subsequent edits showed some possible POV-revert-war problems brewing at Delvinë and Berat, possibly among others. (See Special:Contributions/XXxLRKistxXx.) This led to a look at WP:ARBMAC (and the immediate realization that I don't have six months to make heads or tails of which way is up in that quagmire). Long story short, is there anyone on who is up to speed on the ARBMAC-related pages who I can hand this off to? Thanks in advance. --Ckatzchatspy 07:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Obviously a meatpuppet recruited by fellow Albanian POV advocacy account Sarandioti (talk · contribs) and friends [21], to help out in an ongoing revert war. Sarandioti was involved the other day [22] in a discussion involving a couple of other Albanian users about organising themselves on MSN chat [23] to push their agenda more efficiently, so the appearance of new meatpuppets is not too surprising. Fut.Perf. 07:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
BTW, Sarandioti's response to the new account ("Long live LRK!" [24]) indicates the "LRK" in the user name has a political message; apparently it stands for "Levizja e Rilindjes Kombetare" ('Movement of National Rebirth'), some nationalist advocacy group here. Fut.Perf. 07:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yet another example of superb Balkan sleuth work by Future Perfect at Sunrise. I looked up LRK, but came up emtpy. --Athenean (talk) 08:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Nationalist advocacy? haha Futperf youre not so good at politics are you? Athenian how is Pontos doing? Athenian is tagteaming with Alexikoua, no one is going to do anything about that? --XXxLRKistxXx (talk) 08:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

And im not a meatpuppet. What is the point of this term? Am I not allowed to agree with other users? I have not broken any rules, so stop commneting me like that. This is insulting! --XXxLRKistxXx (talk) 08:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the wiki slang – "meatpuppet" is an internal jargon term meaning somebody who is here only because they were recruited by somebody else off-wiki to support them in a dispute. Which is pretty obviously what happened here. This type of external canvassing is very strongly disliked here, especially if the result is intensifying an edit war. Fut.Perf. 09:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I arrived a bit lately to prevent people from arguing, but anyway im here now. Fut. Perfect as a sign of good faith I myself have stopped editing several articles. I took a step backwards, now its the turn of the other side. They keep removing the albanian name of Konica although it is referenced, and they keep adding greek names in Berat which has no greek community, and in Delvine which has greeks in villgaes not in town. What do you think? --Sarandioti (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

So, would you guys, as a sign of good will, tell us where and how and by whom *LRK* was contacted and recruited to join the fray here? Fut.Perf. 09:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

By no one, he/she joined with his/her own conviction and decision. Why would you think he was recruited? Because of my salutation? Same football team fans have similar salutations, or because of a meeting that hasnt happened yet? --Sarandioti (talk) 09:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Balkanian is also involved in this group: [[25]].Alexikoua (talk) 09:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

What is your exact problem Alexikoua? Is it not allowed to talk to other users? Maybe you should be blocked for such mud-accusations against your fellow editors--Sarandioti (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I would have no problem though to have Future Perfect as Arbitrator. Every party to state its own sources, and why's, and then let him decide. --Sarandioti (talk) 10:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for the news Saradioti breached the 3rr in Paramythia: [[26]], [[27]], [[28]], [[29]]. Suppose the msn cooperation didn't worked that good.Alexikoua (talk) 11:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I told you that it was by mistake, I didnt recognise it. --Sarandioti (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

futperf will you become arbitrator in sarande, delvine, berat, konitsa, himare, gjirokaster? or should i ask for arbitration elsewhere or...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarandioti (talkcontribs) 11:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC) and Xming[edit]

General heads-up that this IP (which says it's Colin Harrison, author of the software in question) is going around making legal threats and generally not behaving itself on that talk page (including taking a rather liberal approach to editing others' comments). This has been going on since at least 2007, but the legal threats are a new and exciting addition. (Attempted resolution deleted from user talk.) Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Blocked a week for legal threats. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've also shut off the IP's ability to edit its talk page owing to ongoing legal threats and attacks after the block. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The article is mostly referenced to However, if you click on any of those references, you get redirected to File:Chrispirate.jpg. Does this make it unreferencable, and hence not notable? *looks innocent* --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like he set up some kind of redirect on his server side to disrupt an article he is not at all happy with, I've skived those off, for now they lead to the website's main page. This said, the sourcing does not establish any meaningful notability. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the "release method" section as lacking any independent sourcing and possible original research. Meanwhile I don't see any meaningful independent coverage of this topic other than listings at software sites and forum/mail comments by some users. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
He's been obsessed with my pirate picture for two years now. The server-side redirect (which is based on the Wikipedia referer: works fine if you just paste the URL) now goes to one of Gronky's rants about me for some reason. I suppose one day I should get serious about getting that particular piece of soapboxing removed as well. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Suicide threat[edit]

Resolved: Declined and moved templated suicide response to block decline notice.  Frank  |  talk  18:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Could an independent admin look at User talk:TheChosenEditor please. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) 18:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Also reblocked to disallow talk page priveleges. –xenotalk 18:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid Editing[edit]

This is overdue, probably: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid Editing. Given that this (and related WP:COI issues) seem to be coming up more and more, I've launched this basic RFC. We've never had an actual community discussion or mandate about this. Please review the statements, leave yours, endorse as you see fit. Should make for an interesting and enlightening discussion. rootology (C)(T) 19:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for block of user on Seven Sisters (law firms) entry[edit]

On the wikipedia page for Seven Sisters (law firms) an anonymous user keeps incorrectly altering the list. There is a reference posted on the page (1) that links to a Macleans article which lists the "seven sisters" law firms. This list includes Torys LLP, and does not include Fasken Martineau DuMoulin LLP.

Contributor ( has repeatedly changed this list, leaving incorrect information on the wikipedia page.

I have changed it, leaving a note, but it has been changed back by this same user.

As a representative of Torys LLP, we feel that the deletion of our firm name from this prestigious list (the "seven sisters" are the law firms in Canada involved in many of the largest deals" and are often considered the "elite" law firms of Canada) is unfair, and we would like assistance to prevent this annonymous contributor from posting inaccurate information the unfairly punishes our firm (by removing it from the list).

My apologies if this is not the correct place to post this request for a block. (My user name: Canmark) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The IP hasn't quite done anything bad enough to get a block for any useful length, and the changes have been few enough and slow enough to make protection a bit notional. I'll watchlist (others should too, please) to make sure that nothing worse happens in the next few days. Independent, third-party references are your friend here: if you can supply them (and I've noted how to request changes on your talk page when reminding you that you have an inherent