Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive545

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Possible COI at Montana Meth Project and Thomas Siebel[edit]

Ongoing low-level edit war at Montana Meth Project between User:FirstVirtual and several other editors. FirstVirtual is the name of the company chaired by Thomas Siebel which apparently funds the Montana Meth Project ads. Since September 2008, several editors have expressed concerns at article Talk about possible COI between FirstVirtual and the Montana Meth Project article, yet editor FirstVirtual invariably returns to heavily edit the page, removing all criticism of the ads and of their efficacy in reducing methamphetamine use among teens. A similar edit pattern has emerged at Thomas Siebel, with FirstVirtual's edits dominating the page. FirstVirtual also made a minor edit to Siebel Scholars. (Possibly of note: these three articles are the only articles that FirstVirtual has ever edited.) Please assist us with restoring NPOV and addressing possible COI at Montana Meth Project and Thomas Siebel. Thank you. Whatever404 (talk) 11:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Not commenting on the edits, but the username is that of a company, and it should be reported at Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention, and that username will be blocked per Wikipedia:Username policy#Company/group names, unless an admin so choses to block them here and now for other reasons. --64.85.214.230 (talk) 11:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I chose to notify the user of the username issue with a comment at their Talk page; in order to give them a chance to change their username and retain their edit history. Whatever404 (talk) 12:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
FirstVirtual continued deleting sourced criticism of their project after your warning, so I blocked them under the username policy.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, SarekOfVulcan. As this problem may resurface if FirstVirtual chooses to rename or form a new account, I would appreciate it if additional contributors would add Montana Meth Project and Thomas Siebel to their watchlists. Is there any specific place that I can go to request that people do this? Thank you. Whatever404 (talk) 11:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism by DreamGuy, and assumption & accusation of bad faith[edit]

Resolved: IP blocked for two weeks as a sock puppet of User:Esasus. MuZemike 23:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I am reporting violations of wikipedia policy by Dreamguy which are vandalism and assumption of bad faith.

1. Dreamguy vandalized the talk page of an IP user’s talk page by his unauthorized and unwarranted removal of the public terminal notice here which was placed on the talk page by the administrator Xeno.
2. Dreamguy left a very nasty accusation against the IP address here showing his very strong assumption of bad faith. I request that Dreamguy face sanctions for his negative polution of the wikipedia community. 207.34.115.78 (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
No one is going to give you what you want over this ip. Well done finding your way here so fast, though.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, with a click on the WHOIS link at the bottom of the talk page, DreamGuy could have confirmed that the IP is, in fact, assigned to the Calgary Public Library. I've therefore restored the shared-IP tag. Deor (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Further vandalism to IP talk page by Dreamguy here 207.34.115.78 (talk) 23:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Quack. MuZemike 23:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
And blizzocked. MuZemike 23:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Quack for sure. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
"Blizzocked"? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
-izzle, I believe. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow. I wonder if you know that the word "izzard" is an old-fashioned term for the letter "Z". Combining that with this embedded "izz" biz, if you try to spell "blizzocked" using "izzard", you could have an infinite regression. I bet Snoop Dogg never thought of that. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Facto socking to create disruption[edit]

The second listed user has been found to be a sock of the first, per this CU request. Now, what is troubling here is the apparent purpose of this account. Sure, they start off making some constructive edits, but the main ones that concern me are the blatant personal attacks, as seen here, calling me racist, and here, calling me insane. Perhaps I am a little paranoid, but it isn't without merit. If this second account is just going to be used to avoid scrutiny, it needs to be blocked. Opinions?— dαlus Contribs 23:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That's standard procedure: they do enough edits so they have autoconfirmation, then they go nuts. HalfShadow 23:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. And obviously they should all be blocked. Presumably that will happen in due course. The admins are on a retreat at the moment. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Block the sock indef and block the user for a few weeks. Nothing to talk about. Syn 01:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Both accounts blocked indefinitely. Tan | 39 01:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The only reason I brought it here was because it was stated in the SPI that Facto was an established user.— dαlus Contribs 19:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Facto had not edited in almost 3 years. Favortie was created shortly after Facto's last edit. I do not believe that the indefinite block on Facto may affect his editing practices.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Contract Editing Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Let's keep the discussion where it belongs. WAS 4.250 has been given a notice about forum shopping. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 15:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No good will come of Wikipedia:Contract Editing Review. Please delete it. WAS 4.250 (talk) 07:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Admins can't just delete it, but you can nominate it yourself. ╟─TreasuryTagduumvirate─╢ 07:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Wait, there is already a page for discussing this, at this RfC. Let's try to avoid spreading the discussion across multiple projects. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 07:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Similary there is also a discussion at Jimbo Wales talk page regarding this matter. I would advice against simply removing this page as discussion is currently underway, with no consensus reached for either allowing, allowing with restrictions, or denying paid editing. Likewise, you already made a statement on the RFC so you already knew about this discussion. I would advice against even giving the idea of evading discussion regarding this matter, as it can be seen as point pushing Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 07:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
This feels like forum shopping, though this should be deleted. This is a horrible idea, but this isn't a speedy candidate... though I'd love to see what admin would delete a good faith, if misguided, WikiProject created by a sitting Arb. AniMatedraw 08:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your stance on paid editors, but i don't deem this page such a bad idea. As clearly stated it's intention is to "Test the water" and can therefore prove valuable, even if only for the sake of finding a neutral middle ground in the paid editor discussion. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 08:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rotational, again[edit]

Note, this user was last bought up here in May, due to MOS conflicts Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive539#Rotational.

This user has taken to creating articles in his userspace, which I feel go beyond using it as a sandbox, I feel that it is being used to create his preferred versions of articles, as he does not wish others to edit them. He creates articles in his userspace every few days, edits them for a while, and rarely goes back to them later, this suggests that it isn't just a sandbox.

On 10 May, he created redirects from the mainspace to his userspace articles, which were speedily deleted by User:Rkitko and he was warned about this. Three of his original pages were originally categorised, which I commented out per WP:BADCATS.

WP:USERSPACE states: "While userpages and subpages can be used as a development ground for generating new content, this space is not intended to indefinitely archive your preferred version of disputed or previously deleted content or indefinitely archive permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia. In other words, Wikipedia is not a free web host. Private copies of pages that are being used solely for long-term archival purposes may be subject to deletion."

This discussion on his talk page suggests this, though he refuses to give a definitive answer. Note these are all in his preferred format, which is not MOS compliant.

This is a list of the offending articles, in order of when they were created

I haven't nominated for MfD as they are useful articles, and its about time most of them were moved to the main article space so that they are useful to everyone. Jenuk1985 | Talk 20:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, s/he doesn't seem happy about having them in the mainspace. But they seem good articles. How awkward. I'd be inclined to suggest someone - you? - be bold and move them to the mainspace and wikify them. S/he can then show her/his hand by moving them back or unwikifying them. Either would thus provoke a community response. S/he should be trying to get the MoS changed rather than creating a shadow 'pedia in userspace. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 20:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it would be appropriate for me to move them, as I have been involved with the issues with Rotational for a while. However, if a few people here are happy for me to go ahead and do it, on that basis, I will Jenuk1985 | Talk 20:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
My view, which is taken from the "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it" message in the edit page, is that the content can be placed in article space - and modified to suit the current MoS. Providing that the origin of the content is acknowledged then it is license compliant. It may be that this scenario may be mentioned to Rotational in the hope of more co-operation, but if there is no such interaction forthcoming we might consider using this editors use of WP space for the benefit of the project regardless of their wishes. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Around about the same time that Jenuk posted this thread (and whilst I was unaware of it) I began moving these into the mainspace. I didn't (and don't) see any need for discussion on this. Rotational has made it clear that he retains them in his mainspace for reasons that are a violation of our ownership of articles policy,[1] so ignoring his wishes on this point is hardly controversial. Hesperian 00:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Of the articles you have moved, I have now bought them up to the MOS guidelines as much as possible. Now we wait for the proverbial to hit the fan ;-) Jenuk1985 | Talk 01:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
When I consider the options before Rotational at this point, I can see little prospect for anything hitting the fan. His editing restriction prevents him from reverting your edits; reverting my page moves will achieve nothing, as his editing restriction still prevents him from reverting your edits, and I don't imagine he fancies hosting MOS-conformant material in his userspace. All we can really expect is a talk page rant; and whilst I welcome scrutiny and discussion of my edits, and I'm sure you do the same, we're under no obligation to respond to him if all he has to say is the same old stuff with a few new insults. Hesperian 02:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Rotational has now moved them all back into his userspace. I think it is time an uninvolved administrator had a close look at this. Hesperian 06:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I am uninvolved and made a polite request there. --John (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Heh. User is making conspiracy charges.--Mask? 07:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, since it'll have to be cleaned up, the editors reversion of the move left an absurd number of cross namespace redirects. --Mask? 07:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Oi, this has definitely moved into the area of WP:OWN. While I applaud the work that has gone into creating these articles, user *must* understand that he can't retain indefinite and unquestioned control over content here. If they are good enough to be mainspace articles, and most appear to be so, that is the appropriate place for them. Huntster (t@c) 10:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The fact the user has made no attempt to make any comment on his actions anywhere other than on a random users talk page, says it all really! Jenuk1985 | Talk 12:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I've moved the articles back into the mainspace and protected them from being moved again until Rotational comments on the matter on their talk page or here. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 14:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I support this action. --John (talk) 18:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

There was peace and quiet until Jenuk1985 and Hesperian decided to stir up trouble - again. The guideline quoted states While userpages and subpages can be used as a development ground for generating new content, this space is not intended to indefinitely archive your preferred version of disputed or previously deleted content or indefinitely archive permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia. In other words, Wikipedia is not a free web host. Private copies of pages that are being used solely for long-term archival purposes may be subject to deletion. Does "indefinitely" mean more than a week, a month, a year or perhaps even a lifetime? - it is not stipulated, leaving any interpretation open to administrators with impaired faculties. My reasons for working on the articles in my userspace were clearly stated on my talkpage: "They're created in my userspace because that is the only way to edit in peace without being harassed by a band of 8-10 editors who don't like my layouts and have made a crusade of stalking my contributions." There is an implied sanctity about one's own userspace which should not readily be invaded without a compelling reason - it is tantamount to WP rape. The unfortunate combination of over-achieving and impoverished intellect seem to crop up frquently whenever these editors are involved. Improvement of WP is the last thing on their minds. Rotational (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Would you like to write that again, without the attacks and hyperbole, so we can see exactly what the issue is? ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 09:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Would it not have been a good idea to look into the issues before you "moved the articles back into the mainspace and protected them from being moved again" or -radical thought- protected them from being moved from my userspace? The automatic assumption that I must be in the wrong places a great strain on your being seen as a disinterested party Rotational (talk) 10:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's be quite blunt, shall we? Userspace is intended as a collection of personal thoughts and correspondence, as well as an off-the-beaten-path area for working on projects. It is not intended that it be a locked door closed to everyone else. Quite the opposite; as with any other location in Wikipedia, it can be edited by anyone. Let me put it this way, Rotational: if you want to keep a copy of those articles in your Userspace (best an earlier version that only you had edited) to change around at your leisure, that is your prerogative. But you cannot forcibly keep these articles out of the mainspace if editors feel they are ready for inclusion. Huntster (t@c) 10:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
What Huntster said. I note you haven't withdrawn the attacks (I hoped you'd pick up the hint) and are now spreading them around to include me and my actions. This is not the way to make friends and influence people. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 10:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
As I've stated repeatedly - my aim on WP is to contribute material. It is one of the tragedies of WP that little seems to be possible without cementing alliances, joining gangs, fraternising, sucking up, awarding and receiving barnstars and generally treating the place like a Country Club. All of which is very useful when seeking that Holy Grail of Wikipolitics: community consensus, which means nothing more than getting a few of one's buddies around to register support. Look at how extensive the involvement is of editors in the present discussion - are any really concerned or is it more a case of grandstanding?. No doubt at the end of this the cry of 'consensus' will go up and this issue will be marked as 'resolved'. So are you surprised that I label Jenuk1985 and Hesperian 'trouble-stirrers' - at the end of this exercise WP certainly will not have gained anything. Rotational (talk) 11:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Right, you have issues with Wikipolitics. I can understand that, I think most of us around here do. But there's a specific issue here that I'd like you to address. From what you've said, it sounds to me like these articles you have written - and they're good, very good - are not intended for the mainspace. Or are intended for the mainspace when certain editing styles/patterns/techniques/cliques/etc are changed or abandoned. Am I right so far? Now, you and I both know that change in this place is pretty well impossible. So these articles are planned to sit in your userspace forever, to make the point that you disagree with the Manual of Style and its enforcement. Wikipedia therefore has in its grasp some great articles, but can't have them.
If I'm right, and I'm no stranger to making a stand on similar matters myself, then I can see where you're coming from. Alas, Wikipedia cannot and will not: the system here is "contribute or go away" (I'm not celebrating that or telling you to do that, I'm just saying, that's how it works). The policies and guidelines we have are designed to stop people from making the type of point you want to make. So, and I'm sorry, I really am, you'll need to find another way of making it. You have to play the system to win against it. You can't fight the system and win. So, WP:RfC is the place if you truly have evidence (actual diffs) that your articles are being targeted; WP:DR is another route to consider. You might like to build a userspace essay on what is wrong with the Manual of Style and specifically what should change and why. But fighting the existing model of collaborative editing is a very big thing to take on, and keeping articles in userspace is not the way to do it. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 12:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, of course the articles were written for mainspace - I'm not a tycoon who hides the good art in a cellar so that he may gloat over it at midnight. But that is not the issue - the issue here is whether any editor, and in particular one who has made a crusade of stalking me, has the right or wit to override me and decide when an article is ready to be transferred to mainspace. If you have ever created an article in your user subspace, I am sure you would be heartily offended by such an action. As for "contribute or go away" try to apply that to Jenuk1985, Hesperian and their cronies and see whether they measure up. I enjoy contributing to WP, but not with their likes peering over my shoulder. As I have stated elsewhere, if they have issues with my layout style and truly believe that they have the support of the community at large, then let them step back and allow the chance editor to modify the articles to conform with MoS, but not dog my contributions and pounce the moment I leave. Rotational (talk) 13:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Golly, what a great idea, Rotational! Yes, do let's apply "contribute or go away" to Hesperian, and see if he measures up: 125,000 edits, of which over 100,000 are to the mainspace; well over 1000 articles created; 5 featured articles; and a tiny fraction of the drama generated by Rotational in half the time. Over 20,000 Wikisource contributions; over 7000 Commons edits and over 8Gb of Commons uploads. But apparently Hesperian doesn't contribute; Hesperian has nothing better to do than stalk Rotational. Poor Rotational, who merely wants Wikipedia to use a layout that everyone but him finds butt-ugly, and who has the integrity to stop at nothing to achieve that humble goal. Hesperian 13:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Dear Hesperian, if your 125 000 edits are of the same quality as the ones I've been subjected to, then you shouldn't shout it abroad. Rotational (talk) 13:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, indeed. My edits are all crap. Yours are much better. Like this stunningly beautiful sequence of eleven reverts:[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. You must be so proud. Hesperian 14:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
If you would like to bring my actions/contributions up then I suggest you start a new ANI thread! I have nothing to hide. Jenuk1985 | Talk 13:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
You may have nothing to hide - you also have little to show. Rotational (talk) 13:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL Jenuk1985 | Talk 13:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Jenuk985, Hesperian, & Rotational, your comments here are becoming unproductive. (Especially Rotational.) Either discuss the issue -- whether Rotational can store articles indefinitely in his userspace -- or take a break from this thread. Squabbling like this will only lead one or more of you being sent to the penalty box. -- llywrch (talk) 17:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

If you can help resolve the issue, then do so. Gratuitous pontificating from the sidelines doesn't help anyone. Rotational (talk) 07:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I am giving all three of you a warning: work harder to find more moderate language. Discuss the issue, not each other. If that is "gratuitous pontification", then referees calling fouls in a sports game are guilty of the same thing. -- llywrch (talk) 19:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
If reminding a user to be civil is unproductive, then I'm guilty! Jenuk1985 | Talk 00:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Editorial styles vary. Some editors create new articles as stubs. Other editors create new articles in user space, editing then in bits and pieces, fits and starts, sometimes taking months or even years to finish (I myself have done so). We should bend over backwards to accommodate both styles. The oldest of Rotationals articles moved is only six weeks old! Rotational has said these articles are intended for mainspace, and assuming good faith I take him at his word. I think these articles should be moved back to Rotational's user space, and he be allowed to work on them in peace. Paul August 20:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree the age of the oldest userspace article does seem quite young, but this is Rotational's style in building an article. He'll edit it consistently for several days and then won't return to it. If he ever does, it's only to edit war on style or make a minor change. Good faith wears thin when the editor in question admits the bad faith motive (explained above). --Rkitko (talk) 21:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Loosmark Gross incivility[edit]

User:Loosmark is engaging in edit warring by removing referenced, consensus edits in articles he otherwise refused to take part in the consensus finding process in a meaningful way, and has lately resorted to grossly uncivil 'arguments' on the talk page. In a related article, an RfC was requested, and soon afterwards he resorted to even more personal attacks in that sections.

This user was already warned to refrain from incivility and to engage in meritful discussion and consensus finding. Kurfürst (talk) 11:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

This looks like forum shopping. You are edit-warring against a consensus of half-a-dozen other editors, and since it isn't working, you are trying to exploit the signs of frustration that the other editors are showing -- that's how it looks. Looie496 (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually its a Polish tag team whose members appeared shorty after a Polish editor started reverting sourced edits with the blunt pretext of 'German war propaganda'. The members of the tag team refuse to discuss any specific concerns they may have about the content on the talk page, apart from labeling them variously as revisionism, nazi sources (NB: the sources used were all written by British historians, one from Sandhurst, one from Jane's etc.), controversial or just flat out uncivil burst outs on the talk pages. Their only activity is stonewalling sourced edits. It seems a Request for Arbitration will be necessary because of this attitude. Kurfürst (talk) 20:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Polish "tag team"? whatever. The sources were discussed at some lenght but i vaguely remember that in one of the talk pages a non -polish editor said that he has the sources you cited and that the things you claim are in the book aren't really there. Was he also a part of the "Polish tag team"?Loosmark (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Please also note that user Kurfürst made other bogus reports in the past.[[13]][[14]].Such behaviour is not only unfair to the falsley acused but also to the Administrators who are wasting their time reviewing. There is also this[[15]][[16]] for some background information if somebody is interested in going into it further. In my opinion user Kurfürst should be warned regarding such conduct.--Jacurek (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Kurfürst seems to be in disagreement with almost every editor on both of those two articles, constantly pushes unreable sources or puts the sources out of contest. He also repeatedly makes controversial edits lying that a consensus was reached for his claims when in fact exactly the opposite is true. Worse than that when somebody reverts his edits he accuses them of removing things for which consensus was reached. Among other things Kurfürst also inserted a completely scandalous claim in the Strategic bombing during World War II article that the Polish Air Force bombed Berlin and his source was that Goebbel made an entry about that in his diary. Loosmark (talk) 18:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Please note that the claim about the 'Goebbels source' is untrue, the source was Willmott's Great Crusade, considered by one of the most balanced account of WW2. Willmott himself teaches at the King's Sandhurst military collage. Kurfürst (talk) 20:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You wrote this on talk page: For example, Goebbel's personal diary notes several air raids on Berlin in September 1939. which indicates that you think that the Nazi minister for propaganda, a notorious liar, is a relible source. Loosmark (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The history of the Strategic Bombing article [17] easily shows that there are at least 9 (nine) editors that disagree with Kurfurst's edits. Out of those 9 I think 3 are Polish (myself included). For Kurfurst to claim consensus for himself is just the height of arrogance (and it is, in plain language, called "lying"). This is like a 5th bogus report that Kurfurst has filed on involved editors.radek (talk) 22:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Who are these nine (LOL) editors? Actually, the only ones that keep reverting the same information are Radeks (Polish), Piotrus (Polish) Jacurek (Polish) and Loosmark (Polish). They all started to appear in the article, which they never edited before, shortly after the first one, Radeks deleted some 3000 characters of sourced material, with the comment of 'German war propaganda'. Anyone who bothers to check the discussion page of the article sees that they are refusing to enter into any meritful discussion, give their sources, they simply stonewall any constructive work. Anyone who checks their private talk pages will certainly see that they have plenty of blocks, and they are actively supporting each other on any and all disputed edits, or when one of their buddies gets perma-banned, or restricted from bewhich seems to happen often. Also take note that their 'edits' - see a typical example - are merely blatant removal of sourced statements and are aimed to to create an anti-German atmosphere in the article, which also characterized their edits in other articles. Also take note, that at least 3 other editors opposed or reverted their 'edits'. Note that one administrator also reverted their edits, see: [18].
In addition to the four editors you mention above, in the past two weeks you have also been reverted by Hohum, Ja 62, Phillip Baird Shearer, an anon account, Depi89, and Dawn Bard which, counting the anon, makes it 10. Hohum and Depi89 have also questioned your use of sources and your misrepresenting them. So you're very clearly editing against consensus, and pushing POV based on a misuse of sources. For you to take that and turn it around and claim that your edits are being reverted "against consensus" is really something. There is in fact a pattern here: bogus 3RR reports, misuse of sources by pretending they say what they don't say, claiming consensus when it's 9 v. 1, filing false ANI reports. Like I said above, in plain language this is called "lying". (If someone is planning on throwing the AGF back at me, please read the second para under "About good faith" [19] in the relevant guideline).radek (talk) 16:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
These four Polish editors are quite clearly organized and wish to own articles by sheer force of numbers. Kurfürst (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Kurfürst would you please stop with personal attacks against Polish editors? Thank you. Also stop repeating that we "refused to enter meritful duscissions", it was already explained to you that there are problems with your highly selective use of sources. You seemed to started editing those articles with the sole purpose of trivialising the crimes of the Nazi's Luftwaffe which bombarded cities killing innocent civilians. And yes no other editor seemed to agree with your claims, non-Polish editors too. Loosmark (talk) 11:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
For the sake of a drop reality being preserved, I have used the 1994 E.R. Hooton book, a military historian and expert of Jane's, to describe the events of the strategic bombing in the Polish and other air campaigns in WW2. The Polish editors mentioned have no problem when Hooton describes this or that attack, or when I used Hooton to describe some LW were asking for 'terror attacks' (selective, am I?) but they tendentiously remove when Hooton states that a particular bombing was in accordance to international law, or when Hooton notes that some subordinated LW officers sabotaged the higher orders, and changed the targets for military ones, and were sacked for this soon after. So when Hooton describes what they want to hear is OK, when he does not, Hooton is suddenly not OK. Kurfürst (talk) 12:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Kurfurst is a POV editor who has caused massive trouble on various articles. Just today, he vandalised an article (which I have not edited) which had information he didn't like, and it was cited. He has been blocked more than enough times, at some point, enough becomes enough. Dapi89 (talk) 01:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Take note for context that Dapi89 is a highly confrontational editor who seeks to stalk members he had edit disputes, which he readily admitted himself. He actively seeks confrontation on all all discussion pages, see [20] Also take note that Each and every one of Dapi89's blocks were due to seeking an edit war and personal attacks against me. Kurfürst (talk) 10:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Kurfurst, stop lying. The feebleness of your position is evident to everyone. Its you that is the problem Kurfurst, I have never ever had any trouble with any other editor for this long (in fact not at all). And you Kurfurst, have been blocked eight or nine times - once indefinitely, (for Gross incivility) which was reduced to a month on the condition you reformed - which you have not. And six of those blocks were for warring with me.
You only compromise when it is on your terms, otherwise you edit war and make false complaints about those you are attacking. Your edits are distinctly appologist and pro-Axis, and you have been called out on this god knows how many times over these past 18 months.

And that rubbish about me being confrontational is just that. And its fantastically ironic. Your behaviour stinks and you are agenda driven Is is anywonder your edits are policed Kurfurst, and that you simply don't have a good reputation here. Dapi89 (talk) 11:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it speaks for itself that Dapi89 dares to resort to this kind of behaviour even on the Administrator's noticeboard... Kurfürst (talk) 11:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

As several editors pointed out, this thread is nothing but block shopping. The only incivility (and a ton of edit warring) I see here is coming from Kurfürst. Further, I find his incivility against ethnic groups ("Polish tag team", etc.) highly offensive and in blatant violation of Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions. Therefore I suggest that an uninvolved admin (as a Pole, I can be considered involved here...) takes appropriate action, starting with listing Kurfürst on DIGWUREN's restriction list. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The crocodile tears are somewhat unconvincing. I have reviewed your talk pages - the coordination between is evident. See: Loosmark [21] See: Jacurek, and [22]. See Piotrus and Piotrus when Jacureck's roll back rights were revoked. Secondly, in the said article, one Polish editor turns up, reverts a mass of sourced statements, with the commant of 'German war propaganda'. Curiously, immidiately afterwards, 3 other Polish editors turn up, they keep deleting sourced statements, but refuse to discuss it on the talk page. Coincidence. When consesus is formed via discussino with other, reasonable editors, they still keep reverting, and the only comment they gave for their reverts are 'no cosensus', 'controversial sources' and 'POV pushing'. Who are we kidding, really? Its the same song every time - and yes, the DIGWUREN listing is one these tricks, you seem to try to use it against all editors you have dispute with - a rather ironic suggestion from an editor who otherwise simply refuse to enter any kind of meritful discussion on talk pages on the actual content of articles. Kurfürst (talk) 15:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

ok I've to agree with Piotrus: some admin should act. Kurfürst is constantly lying that a consensus was reached when it is 100% clear from the talk page that's completely untrue (unless consensus for him means he's in consensus with himself), plus the repeated baseless accusations against Polish editors are simply defamatory. @Kurfürst: how is the editing of the Battle of Belgium (1940), Supermarine Spitfire operational history, Messerschmitt Bf 109 going? Are you still arguing and removing sources there? Loosmark (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I checked the diffs, and I'm not really convinced they constitute "gross uncivility". Proper block shopping needs much better diffs. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 21:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

edit-warring over flags[edit]

The user above is edit-warring about the use of flags on dozens of Formula One related articles. This stems back to this discussion at WT:F1 where it was in general agreed (after a very long discussion) to have flags distingushed for where the race was actually run, i.e. races in Germany would have the German flag in the infobox, regardless of the official race title (i.e if it was under the European Grand Prix title). This appeared to be OK until Lucy-marie began edit-warring and changing them back to the original version despite the consensus. I told her to stop here and she appeared to have stopped. However, despite being in knowledge of such discussion, she appears to have started edit-warring again, see [23][24] and even marking a controversial change as minor.

It appears Lucy-marie has edit warred before, see this discussion on her user page from March. I don't know if a block is in order here, but I don't think Lucy-marie's actions are construction. I would revert, but don't have any intention of getting into a revert war. D.M.N. (talk) 12:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on the talk page it was partly-resolved and the use of the national flags in place if the EU flag was discussed and deemed to be inappropriate and confusing. The user who reverted did so against the consensus of the discussions on WP:F1. Please before Jumping to conclusions do background research first and contact the user(s) concerned before making a big deal out of something which can easily be resolved.--Lucy-marie (talk) 12:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a casual viewer on this particular subject, if the purpose of the flag is to show where the race was run, the specific national flag would surely be better than the EU flag. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The flags concern the European GP and not a second German grand Prix or Second Spanish GP. The San Marion GP took place in Italy, but the San Marino flag is still used.--Lucy-marie (talk) 12:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Then it sounds like the dispute is not so much about which flag to use, but about what the actual purpose of the flag is - to indicate the location, or to indicate the "sponsor". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
What is the purpose of the flag supposed to be? What information does it add? --John (talk) 13:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Formula one rules prohibit the use of the same race name more than once throughout the season, e.g. no 2 Italian Grand Prix, so we Have the San Marino GP and the Italian GP and accordingly the flag of San Marino is used to represent the name of the country in the race title. This is the same principle for the European GP the FIA use the European Flag on their international broadcasts for the European GP just as they used the San Marino Flag for the San Marino GP even though it was actually in Imola, Italy. as such we need to be consistent and follow the same rules as the sport uses or we are misrepresenting the subject.--Lucy-marie (talk) 13:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
A nation's flag is not the name of a race. The original complainant states that the purpose of the flag is to indicate the physical location of the race. You're saying its purpose is something to do with the name of the race. Obviously, there is disagreement about the purpose of the flags. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The original complaint surrounded a nation or nation-like entity which does not exist, the pacific. The discussion evolved into use of lags in general and it was concluded that the name of the race was the flag that should be used. This is not possible for the Pacific Grand Prix so has no flag attached.--Lucy-marie (talk) 13:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
If the flag does not show the physical location of the race, what useful information does it provide? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It indicates which Grand Prix it represents rather than where the race physically held, this is done to enable easy identification of the races in lists and to disambiguate from other races held in the same country.--Lucy-marie (talk) 13:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Obviously the complainant disagrees with what it means, and as a casual observer, I would lean toward his argument. For comparison, consider the 1992 and 1993 World Series. It would be liking placing the U.S. Flag next to the games in Toronto just because MLB is based in the USA. It's useless in that case. But in any case, this looks like an unsettled content dispute. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Would you put the Spanish flag next to the Catalan Moto GP, us because it was held in Spain, I do though see your point with world series but that is a wholly different sport.--Lucy-marie (talk) 14:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It depends on what the purpose of the flag is. That's what seems to be in dispute. Presumably at some point the original complainant will come back here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I should note the person that first changed the flags on Formula One articles was Andrwsc on March 20th, see here for an example of his edit. The reason given was "use flag of Japan for Pacific Grand Prix, instead of inappropriate Flag of the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, of which Japan is not even a member". He's been doing this for dozens of articles outside of Formula One and sport as a whole, which suggests to me it is a Wikipedia wide issue - has a central discussion taken place about flag issues such as this one? Besides, it doesn't lean away from the fact that Lucy-marie appears to have edit-warred, against consensus on the above articles. D.M.N. (talk) 14:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The changes I made were in-line with consensus and why wast the other editor not pulled up on their reversions on 22 May, this strikes of one rule for me and one rule for the other user.--Lucy-marie (talk) 15:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The complainant claims you are acting against consensus. You can't both be right. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The complainant is wrong, in this instance, the discussion is long and complex and has not reached any consensus to change the use of the EU flag, it has though agreed not to use the flag of the secretariat of the pacific community.--Lucy-marie (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Lucy-marie, please stop edit-warring. I've told you to stop and discussion yet you are carrying on reverting: [25][26][27][28][29][30][31]. Please stop otherwise an adminstrator could block you. The WT:F1 discussion has AlexJ, Cs-wolves, Chubbennaitor, myself, Falcadore, Petera93, and some others agreeing with the changes (look at the table halfway down that section to prove this). Some disagree, but the majority agree. D.M.N. (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)#
I am simply restoring the original consensus, there currently appears to be little support for the edits which I have reverted, the current discussion are focusing on the inclusion of the use of Flags at all. I also say please stop with the double standards of only singling out my edits and not the other user from May 22. The people you are talking off are opposed by numerous other editors and their voting does not change the consensus, that take virtual unanimity e.g. over 80% of all involved editors.--Lucy-Marie 16:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Lucy-marie, can you see the following bit in the WT:F1 discussion?

My proposal is that we adopt the following.

  • If a race is named after a geographical entity that is above the level of a country, no flag will be used in the main article and the flag of the host nation shall be used for individual races. Example: The Pacific Grand Prix has no flag in the main article and the Japanese flag is used in 1995 Pacific Grand Prix.
  • If a race is named after a country, then said country's flag will be used in the main article and elsewhere, even if the race takes place in a different country. If a flag is required to denote the location of an individual race, the flag of the genuine host country shall be used. Example: The Luxembourg Grand Prix article uses the Luxembourg flag. Individual races use the Luxembourg flag, although if the Nurburgring circuit requires a flag, the flag of Germany shall be used.
  • If a race is named after a geographical entity that is below the level of a country, the flag of the country containing said entity shall be used in both the main article and elsewhere. Example: The Abu Dhabi Grand Prix uses the United Arab Emirates flag, because Abu Dhabi is below the level of country.
  • If a race is named after something else, no flag will be used in the main article and the flag of the host nation shall be used for individual races. Example: The Glover Trophy shall have no flag in the main article but the flag of the United Kingdom shall be used for individual races.

Would this have support? Readro (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment this was discussed before I entered the discussion so to claim that that is the basis of the consensus is a misrepresentation.--Lucy-marie (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
No it isn't. You were opposing the above, hence the reverts as far as I can tell. D.M.N. (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

When I originally reverted I was unaware of this proposal as it was buried in an unwieldy and rambling discussion/vote/mob rule.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

After that bit, I count the following that support (or appear to) and oppose (that appear to) :

  • 9 Support (Readro [proposer], Bretonbanquet, Diniz, Chubbennaitor, D.M.N., Alistairjh, Cs-wolves, Petera93, Falcadore
  • 3 Opposes (Cybervoron, Mattomatteo27, Lucy-marie)

So, I struggle to see what the problem is seeing as we have a majority *new* consensus. Therefore, you are reverting against consensus. D.M.N. (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The discussions you are talking of are old and have moved on to discuss the inclusion of the flags at all, the original consensus was reached through voting which is not a substitute for debate, I have yet to hear a coherent argument stating concisely why we should baffle and confuse readers by using a flag that does not correspond to the name of the GP. This hough is not the place and should be discussed on WP:F1. Can you also please stop with the accusations that I am at fault either all reverts are at fault or nobody is. It appears as if there is no consensus as to weather there is a consensus so there is no consensus.--Lucy-marie (talk) 17:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It is not as of old. Even if discussion moves on, it doesn't mean consensus disappears. Besides, I only see 3/4 people supporting no flags, so the majority would still be with above. This is (for the time being) my final comment here as I'd appreciate some input from outside parties on the above. D.M.N. (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Some favour no flag at some favour the Europe flag for the European GP and some favour the daft suggestion of national flags for the European GP. Also a vot wastaken on that proposal before numerous editors had contributed.--Lucy-marie (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

A continuation of this discussion can be found on WP:F1.--Lucy-marie (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not at all happy you've closed this discussion considering you are in it. D.M.N. (talk) 17:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It's about the user's edit-warring. They aren't allowed to close it themselves. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
This is one sided and borderline POV pushing as the complainant is on the other side is the discussion and is in favour of the national flags, rendering them un-impartial. and has descending into a content discussion and should be discussed in the appropriate location on the WIki project talk page not here. Also there is no edit warring occurring, it is a fabrication to state that there is.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Regardless, the original complaint was about you edit-warring, so you have no right to close the complaint yourself, without consensus of some kind. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough (even if the discussion has descended into a content dispute).--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The other user is now edit warring or at least attempting too I strongly suggest an admin rapidly protects all of the involved pages or this will get out of control very quickly.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Strongly recommend at least 24-hr block for Lucy-marie. Just have a look at the user's contribs and you'll get an idea of project-wide edit warring and showing no indication to stop. This one was less than 15 mins ago even after this and discussion at WT:F1 was started. And the edit summary shows no remorse for editing behaviour. LeaveSleaves 19:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me in my opinion i am maintaining original consensus, if you block me you need to block the other user as well or it is double standards just look at the edits which have been undertaken in the last 20 mins, also taking into account the 24 related article edits is wrong as that was a long time ago and have apologised for them.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know were or how (or if) was the consensus about flags reached because i always found the discussion about it a bit boring (and it started already in April if i'm not mistaken). But having said that, in my opion Lucy-marie is 100% correct that we can't have for example a German flag for the European GP, it just doesn't make any sense.Loosmark (talk) 19:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about the content but about Lucy-marie's editing behaviour, which is clearly unacceptable. LeaveSleaves 19:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll offer a viewpoint as an uninvolved observer (having watched the initial discussion regarding flag usage with F1 races). How the flags should be used is not the reason for this ANI. Rather, it appears to be here because User:Lucy-marie has edited F1 articles resetting flags to their liking, even though it is not what the F1 Wikiproject decided. Their initial edits that occurred a month ago (such as [32]) were reverted[33] and the user was directed to the discussion at the F1 Wikiproject[34]. The user has apparently come back this week and made the same edits that they were previously warned not to make as per that discussion. More disturbing, in my opinion, is that User:Lucy-marie made yet another round of similar edits after they were informed that this ANI was created. It's these edits that seem to be non-constructive and a problem. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
She is known for doing this. I have previously intervened when she was edit warring against a few people, claiming that there was no consensus simply because she disagreed with them. --Deskana, Champion of the Frozen Wastes 22:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Lucy-marie's editing does indeed seem to be problematic, and sanctions may be in order. As for the topic at hand, I don't have any clue about Formula One, so I'm eminently qualified to make recommendations under Wikipedia customs. I recommend that flags whose relation to the events is not intuitively obvious are confusing, do not serve WP:Dear Reader, and should be taken out. Four-point listings of flag usage rules may be fun to compose and apply, but the're obviously non-obvious, and thus should not be used to decorate an encyclopædia. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 21:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism and personal attacks by IP editor[edit]

Resolved: Balkan-blocked, topic ban Toddst1 (talk) 19:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

94.54.228.174 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) was recently warned for removal of sourced information and attacks on Kansas Bear (talk · contribs). The IP received a 12 hour block but has returned and picked up right where it left off. Could someone please take a look? Thank you, Kafka Liz (talk) 11:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've re-blocked the editor and per the 2007 arbitration case imposed a topic ban on all Balkan-related articles from that IP. This sanction has been recorded here and users of the IP address have been notified here. Toddst1 (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for checking this out. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Another new issue surrounding the AC, Sam Blacketer, and the Boothroyd article[edit]

Details here and weigh in there on the AC notification page, alleged pressure by Arbcom members in e-mail in regards to the disposition of User:JoshuaZ/David Boothroyd before User:Sam Blacketer's reconfirmation RFA in 3 days' time. I was asked to help "resolve" the issues of the article due to pressure from "Arbcom members". I have absolutely no idea what is happening and have no time to sort it out today. I have a (I thought!) rather well-known strong dislike for back-channel dealings, so I have no idea why I was pulled into either a good-hearted or nefarious scheme rather haplessly by someone. Please check my bolded link, I'm baffled by this. rootology (C)(T) 13:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No offense, but we're all baffled too. Is there anything here that requires administrator attention? It seems that a non-Arb sent you a somewhat confusing two-sentence email. Perhaps you should ask him exactly what he means? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

User changing cronology of albums to ep's[edit]

Resolved: IP blocked and message left. Mfield (Oi!) 19:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There is the user, as seen on my talkpage, another editor has expressed concern. AndrewrpTally-ho! 16:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

As the user has failed to engage or acknowledge any of the comments left for them, I have blocked them for 24 hours for disruptive editing and left them a block warning explaining the reasons and that they should spend the time they are blocked reading the guidelines that they have been directed to. Mfield (Oi!) 19:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Can a Admin call a user a asshole?[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved: Moved to WP:WQA, it's not on to call someone an asshole on this website Gwen Gale (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not a good image for Wikipedia [35]. Honestly I am not mad because the insult its behind a computer but what should I do? Thank you --Taulant23 (talk) 20:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See the big banner at the top when editing this page: Issues with incivility, while unfortunate, should be raised at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. Regards SoWhy 20:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Yep, list this at WP:WQA. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you guys,It's kinda messed up though.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

If you're saying it's "messed up" because he called you that, yes, very messed up and untowards. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Looking into this a bit more, I see he unblocked you 2 days ago, after blocking you for edit warring. I'll let him know about this thread so he can say something here if he likes. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Usually admins just block people that are bothering them or that they don't like, so they rarely feel need to call people names, prefering more subtle abuse like snarky arrogance and rudeness. Have fun in the other queue. I guess it was easier to send you elsewhere than to address your question. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:30, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
ChildofMidnight - that is not a helpful comment. Pedro :  Chat  20:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's assume that admins are inclined to treat people with subtle abuse, snarky arrogance, and rudeness. One could either a) preemptively practice snarky arrogance and rudeness oneself, or b) try to model the sort of behavior one would like to see from others. I'd rather admins didn't call people names. I'd also rather people didn't hector others on their talk pages. Both of those acts are uncivil. I'd rather everyone were civil. As a result, I try to model at least the minimum level of civility I'd like to see from others, though I've been slipping recently. It hasn't worked so far, but it seems like a better bet than option a). MastCell Talk 20:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
PLEASE ALSO SEE WP:DICK.Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
What is it with all the talk about body parts? At least be original; call someone a pathetic fractured calcaneus or a festering islet of Langerhans. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I prefer the classic expressions, "crazy den of pigs" and "bucket of ringworm snot". Oh S-J, where art thou now? :) Franamax (talk) 21:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Midnight has a point, his "openness" should deserve some credit. However he most certainly shouldn't. Being rude is fine (it is somehow widely practiced wikiwide anyway), but swearing is not cool and strictly forbidden. On the other hand most american people are like that, not counting that word as a swear. Or maybe he is an international user that learn english from movies. Just tell him to stop calling you, and ask him to strike or remove the word according to your preference. If he insists you may take other precautions. Noticeboards should be last case resort, on the other hand admins should care better than regular users. By the way what is your dispute. Kasaalan (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I just don't feel I did anything wrong to be called like that.He wants to use Genetics and I am saying let's use linguistic, books and other sources.Maybe the mighty Jimbo can help?--Taulant23 (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
ANI is not for settling content disputes, nor is Jimbo's talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
No. We have a bunch of noticeboard to deal with these issues. Give poor jimbo a break before we break him though overusage :) Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 20:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Why even bother, apparently he is untouchable!! Sad I thought Wikipedia had some kind of justice--Taulant23 (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The complaint about the asshole slur has been moved to here..[[36]] . (Off2riorob (talk) 21:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC))

Inspired by Mastcell's example, I would like to suggest that the admin involved would do well to apologize. My understanding of our policies is that it's not acceptable to call other editors assholes, even when they're causing frustration. Telling them to drink tea or take a nap might be okay though... depends who you ask. ;) I think expressions of satire and sarcasm are best kept among friends. So, I would avoid snide remarks to disputants who are upset and encourage restraint wherever possible. But sometimes on the rarest of occasions even I slip! ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah ChildofMidnight., Fine words from someone who but a few edits up came up with Usually admins just block people that are bothering them or that they don't like. You're really one to talk about snide remarks aren't you. If you don't like snide remarks please strike the one you made above. Pedro :  Chat  21:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
No apologies and move on?? What kind of admin calls editors asshole?? What kind of admin does not even say I am sorry man??

OK let's move on and let's block Taulant in 3 days so he can shut his mouth. Thank you guys.--Taulant23 (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think most editors will understand why I'm archiving this thread. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ramu50 Is Back[edit]

Resolved: Talk page blocked, original one month block on IP restarted. - NeutralHomerTalk • 05:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Ramu50 is an indefblocked user that has been using the IP account 75.154.186.241. The anon has admitted to being Ramu in this post and has said he will be editing on that IP for "1 year+". This is a clear-cut case of block evasion and I believe the IP should be blocked for that year that Ramu plans on using it. If not, some other form of block should be issued to stop the block evasion. - NeutralHomerTalk • 01:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It would not hurt for someone else to review the case, but I'll block tomorrow if nobody else reviews. Ramu50 exhausted the communities patience quite badly earlier and seems to be up to old tricks with this IP. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Block on IP 75.154.186.241 was restarted (for 1 month) and the talk page was blocked as well by User:Rootology. - NeutralHomerTalk • 05:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

72.231.253.33 / 74.78.20.70[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved: IP blocked for 3 months by VirtualSteve
김 위원장의 브로큰 엎드려 로켓 (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
  • With more blocks, they escalate in length. The last block on the IP that this user has issues with was blocked for a month at the end of April.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I cannot block any IP or user. If you post this IP on WP:AIV and state that it is a returning vandal, it will be answered by an administrator much faster than anything happening on this page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I am giving advice as a former administrator. There is nothing on this page that says I cannot act in such a way.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Bert Schlossberg[edit]

Bert Schlossberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
This is a single-purpose account, of a self-styled expert on the Korean Airlines shootdown from a few decades ago; the purpose being to find every possible venue here, to either directly or indirectly promote his book and his website. Is this appropriate? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you expecting anyone to say, "Yes", Bugs? LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been known to happen. Maybe I should instead ask, "What is the appropriate course of action, if any, to address this situation?" Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
(Devil's advocate) Well, he certainly does seem to have a very narrow focus, and his userpage does link to his website (and he's raised an OTRS ticket apparently in order to use his website's material here). However, his recent edits at least do seem to be useful (wikignomery, though within the narrow area Bugs' mentions). I've not gone back beyond the last 3-4 edits, though.
Moonriddengirl has had some interaction with respect to the OTRS ticket; I'd be interested in her views here. I don't have a strong opinion yet, beyond tending to respect Bugs' judgement.
Cheers, This flag once was redpropagandadeeds 13:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I see my name. :) On June 6th, a communication was sent to OTRS; further information was requested. The contributor did not reply. On June 11, I pointed out that a response was still needed and offered assistance. The contributor has subsequently edited but not replied to my note; a search of OTRS shows no signs that he supplied the further information requested. Accordingly, the article tagged has been deleted, and I left him another note explaining how to proceed if he wishes to donate this text. I don't have any familiarity with the material; my involvement has been purely with respect to the copyright question. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Given the copyright discussion farther up the page, I'm trying to get some clarity on the matter - not about theoretical policy, but about practical application. A year or two ago I raised a similar issue here, about a user who was blatantly promoting his own work. I was shouted down for it, and he was allowed to get away with it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I usually don't mix copyright work with other matters, but on occasion will list an article for review at WP:COIN. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Can you show some examples of where he is self-promoting? I believe that WP:COIN is the normal place to sort out if interested parties are behaving in violation of wikipedia policy. Unomi (talk) 13:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This subject first came up on ANI a week or two ago, related to copyright violation - specifically, posting his own information in blatantly self-promotional articles. As MRG notes above, he has yet to back up his promise to release the copyright on them (hence her deletion of those articles), but failure to follow up raises questions as to whether he is the real author or not. Supposing he is the real author, his website [37] now appears in some 15 articles, and his edits are designed to lead back to the KAL007 incident (and hence to his website), some way or another. He said at some point, when I questioned him about relinquishing his own copyright, that he was willing to do so in order to get the truth out there. [38] Honk! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Nassim Nicholas Taleb[edit]

Stalking and Harrassment of Nassim Taleb by Ulner[edit]

I am a connected to the Taleb family (Nassim Nicholas Taleb) whose living biography wikipedia is handling; I only act to correct distortions and harrassment and do not add new material. I would like to report userUlner as obsessed with Taleb and making every single change possible on every item and bickering, in a way that exhibits web stalking of a living person, causing much DISTRESS to Taleb's family. I would like to seek Ulner refrain from further harassment of Taleb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IbnAmioun (talkcontribs) 21:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC) IbnAmioun (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing this with User:Ulner? I don't see any messages on their talk page, but I may be missing something. -- Darth Mike (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Have you considered that you might have a WP:COI conflict of interest and that maybe you shouldn't be involved with the Taleb articles? Who cares about minor misrepresentations on wikipedia? They hardly matter but having someone so dedicated to observe your articles sorta raises the suspicions of users that there really might be something unwritten worth knowing regarding the matter. Anyway I'll be keeping a closer eye on Taleb related articles from now on.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 23:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
194x144, that wasn't entirely helpful. Please WP:AGF
IbnAmioun - Also, please assume good faith about other contributors. You seem to be reacting very defensively to other editors who want to help improve the article. I've reviewed a dozen or so changes and none of them seem to be abusive or vandalism. If you have specific examples that you're concerned about, either on the article or the talk pages, please provide them here.
Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the help. My problem with User:Ulner is that he seems obsessed (to make 50 entries in such a short span betrays obsession) and he bickers over the smallest thing as he is doing now --any small detail seems to be a stumble to him. There is no problem if you have editors going back and forth on a point but you should realize that someone FROM THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE INDUSTRY (of which Taleb is extremely critical) making 50 edits on a living person without others intervening can be extremely distorting. IbnAmioun (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This basically seems to be a content dispute at Nassim Nicholas Taleb. That article seems over-written, and might be trimmed down a bit. It is a bit laudatory; the guy tanked two hedge funds with his strategy, but that's not mentioned. (His basic concept was kind of cute - buy options on both sides that are way out of the money, on the theory that the market underprices options far from the current price. This pays off when something drastic happens, and bleeds money when markets are relatively stable. Hence his paper "Bleed or Blowup", and his "Black Swan" book.) This needs attention from someone who understands derivative strategies. Is there a laid-off quant in the house? --John Nagle (talk) 06:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The trading strategies are marginal to Taleb thought books and papers. While Taleb published a cherished book about options 12 years ago, his later two books (Fooled by randomness and The Black Swan) are about knowledge, science and making decisions in life. He is mostly known for his books. His sceintific works are also much about knowledge extremem events and risk, and rarely touches the hedge fund strategy. Yechezkel Zilber (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The situation is far more serious than you think. Taleb and the Taleb family has been getting threats by unemployed finance people who have been stalking them both PHYSICALLY and on the WEB. These threats have been reported in the WSJ journal. <ref.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457658749086809.html?mod=rss_topics_davos#articleTabs%3Darticle</ref> —Preceding unsigned comment added by IbnAmioun (talkcontribs) 08:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I find the following text from the talk page of Taleb to be a personal attack in violation of Wikipedia policy: "The harassment situation is far more serious than you think, which is why we worry about such obsessive users as Ulner . Taleb and the Taleb family has been getting threats by unemployed finance people who have been stalking them both PHYSICALLY and on the WEB. These threats have been reported in the WSJ journal.". Ulner (talk) 11:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat[edit]

IbnAmioun seems to be making legal threats on the Nassim Nicholas Taleb talk page: "You should look at the consequences of obsessive stalking a character" [39], and "When someone like Ulner spends his ENTIRE time obsessed with a subject, this raises issues of stalking that may play a role in a COURT of LAW". [40] He's also accusing the other user of mental disorders. --Anderssl (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Discussed above somewhere.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "Legal threats on talk page of Taleb" and "Stalking and Harrassment of Nassim Taleb by Ulner" are the two I see at the moment.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, sorry, my bad. There was no notice of this at the talk page of the article, so I didn't realize this was already being discussed here. --Anderssl (talk) 21:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Threats from associates of Taleb are apparently a known problem. See [41], where J. Barkley Rosser, Jr., a well-known economist, describes his run-in with Taleb and his supporters. Some short-term blocks may be in order here. --John Nagle (talk) 15:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Repeated unprofessional administrator conduct.[edit]

Recently I was banned for 24 hours for incorrectly posting to the wrong notice board personal attacks on me and edit warring on the Talk:Ayn Rand. At least two other high level administrators pointed out that the action of me being banned was questionable. It pissed me off enough to believe that wikipedia is corrupt. Enough to get me to retire. Now when a Professor whom I am an fan of and have no connection with in my personal life gets another set of Axe to Grind harrassing Editors on his article when I comment on the inappropriateness of their conduct. Not they, but me get a singled out of the blue with a completely erronious comment posted on my talkpage. 1.[42]

For the comment above and as a by product of my past banning, I have went and attempted to address this with the administrator on his talkpage. Rather then note their oversight and actually reign in other editors who are attacking the Taleb estate rep and are incorrectly using Wikipedia policy to do it. This administrator blamed me and has and obviously will do nothing to address the inappropriate behavior even as it appears to continue. If the administrator was concerned as they claim why no more involvement in Taleb's issue? Say on the talkpage? Why was the issue allowed to be escalated to an WP:Office? Well I think that no administrator cared to stop the behavior and would rather comment at the time on mine.
I would like an apology from the administrator in question. Do not bother to blame me or attack me with for this nonsense. I have no control over administrators here in wiki. Their short sightedness and knee jerk and incorrect reactions do not belong to me as I did not have control over them and make them screw up. I would like an apology first for being blocked arrogantly and unjustifably. Also an apology in relation to the Nassim Taleb article for being separated out from pack for direct and very public criticism, for comments that where completely restrained and appropriate. Comments in hindsight that most definitely were within reason in light of recent information posted to the article.

LoveMonkey (talk) 15:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Since I don't know how to defend myself against a statement that telling him to comment on the content, not the contributors, is a threat, I'll just sit this out for now.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
    • It's just bizarre. There are serious problems at Nassim Nicholas Taleb and its talk page that might use some more Admin eyes, but no apology is required here from you. Dougweller (talk) 16:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
  • LoveMonkey, you need to provide evidence and links and diffs. I honestly can't understand the point that you are trying to make. Jehochman Talk 16:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Why has SarekOfVulcan singled me out and make no attempt to stop the harassment on the Taleb talkpage? LoveMonkey (talk) 16:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Taleb has already contacted the Wikipedia office. And yet nothing is being done to stop the harassment. Look at the ANI on this page where the editor is reporting Taleb's legal representive for Wikipedia Policy violations. LoveMonkey (talk) 16:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Why was I singled out? Taleb has a WSJ article about potential death threats. I post a defense that inappropriate behavior is going on by other editors on the article and I am the only one getting comments posted on their talkpage. Why? LoveMonkey (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Why has SarekOfVulcan not addressed the other editors misuse of Wiki policy to frustrate and discourage Taleb representative from posting to address their percieved harassment? LoveMonkey (talk) 17:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
      • SarekOfVulcan's note to you seems quite mild and entirely appropriate to me. Even if there were other issues with the page, if it was yours that he saw, he was right to remind you of Wikipedia behavioral expectations: WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA are standards which every editor is requested to follow, even if he or she feels others are not. Perhaps you did not intend it that way, but the statement that he pointed out to you seems like a very loaded one that could perhaps be paraphrased as "You must be deliberately subversive, because you can't be that stupid." Wikipedia requests that we point out the errors in somebody's reasoning, not suggest that either they have (a) deficient understanding or (b) are faking it so they can get away with something (unless we have very strong evidence, it's best to assume good faith in conversations). If Sarek had blocked you for incivility without investigating or noticing if others also needed to be addressed, that would be one thing, but a mild reminder seems well within reason. If you feel that others are harassing you, you have the same recourse to remedy as any other contributor, as set out at WP:DR. Administrators, too, are human and not all-seeing. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
        • I am requesting an explaination on how a talkpage can prompt the living breathing human being it is about to pick up the phone and call the foundation. And the only person who get commented on isn't even the target of the living persons complaint.[43] I have every right and justification to complain.LoveMonkey (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
          • SarekOfVulcan has done nothing to clean up the mess. Why are opposing editors allowed to misuse WP policies to attempt and silence someone's restate representative? Where is SarekOfVulcan at? Making remarks about me on my talkpage. One of the editors had already filed an ANI on here as can be seen above. Where is SarekOfVulcan's involvement. Where is his comments to them? Nowhere. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
            • I do not know what drew SarekOfVulcan to the conversation, but unless SarekOfVulcan is the individual who received that phone call and unless he responded to an investigation only by singling out your edit specifically, I'm not sure that the two situations are related. If he has not accepted responsibility for investigating and addressing any global issues, then he is not solely responsible for addressing the BLP concerns in the article. Such concerns should be taken very seriously and investigated with due diligence, but if Sarek may be approaching your comment as a separate issue. I have read his note to you, and, again, it seems mild; it even says that your comment "is probably on the wrong side" of the proper approach in conversations instead of flatly accusing you of incivility or a personal attack. Certainly, if no other attention is paid to BLP concerns, I would see why you might be upset, but demanding it of this administrator in particular may be misguided. Perhaps if the whole situation were less emotional and you had not recently been blocked by another administrator in a way you felt unfair, Sarek's behavior here might not seem so extreme and objectionable to you? If the BLP concerns are not being addressed, they should certainly be pursued, but you might find it more productive to focus on that rather than Sarek's concerns with this one statement. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
            • (Your repeatedly asking your question may be preventing responses. I got three consecutive edit conflicts in my attempts to answer you and would have given up if I had gotten a fourth. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC))
              • OK now that is exactly the reasonable and respectable response I have been seeking. I am not OK with getting called out and then having my grievences ignored or sarcastically rebuffed. THANK YOU. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
              • I apologize about the edit conflicts I have been getting them too and they have really made me frustrated. You are an angel. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Sarekofvulcan seems to be the spotlight of many unsatisfied editors and complaints, Please see this for other examples of Sareks misconduct here on wikipedia. It is my honest opinion that this user should indeed not have access to any admin tools and I am going to have to file a review of conduct regarding this admin at a later time but in the meantime I'd ask you LoveMonkey Please to discontinue posting messages here for the time being and to let uninvolved administrators review your complaint in peace.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Who is this editor. Who are you to speak to the process and the policies here? Are you still keeping an eye on Taleb's representive? Are you still pursuing getting him blocked from the article or banned. For WP:Policy vios? LoveMonkey (talk) 17:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
    • It's a little difficult to figure out from the above exactly where things are. If somebody has physically called the Wikimedia Foundation and a Wikimedia Foundation representative has indicated that they will investigate and/or deal with this, then this matter is out of the community's hands and even administrators should leave it to our legal representatives to address. Almost everyone you encounter on this page, administrator or not, is going to be a volunteer, and few of us are empowered to address concerns at that level. If, however, there has not been contact made to the Wikimedia Foundation or a Wikimedia Foundation representative has advised that the community must resolve this, it would probably be best to open a section at a forum established to address these situations, like the biographies of living persons noticeboard, if the material being introduced to the article is libelous. I have to admit that reading the notes above doesn't help me see the core issue here. If the problem is simply that a contributor is editing the article too much, I can't think of any policy we have that would forbid it, as long as (a) material meets the core policies of WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:OR, (b) the content is consistent with WP:BLP, and (c) the editor works within behavioral guidelines to build a consensus with other contributors consistent with those policies. If an editor is not meeting these three points, but is exhibiting ownership of an article, dispute resolution may be necessary (though unless material is poorly sourced contentious text, immediate admin intervention may not be). If there are concerns that material being added is libelous, it may be very helpful to point out a specific problem so that other contributors who do not know who the subject of this article is (like me) would better be able to see why there are concerns. Not knowing anything about him, I mean no disrespect when I say that even if material is negative, it's not a violation of policy if it is (a) verifiable and (b) not overly emphasized. I am very sorry if the subject of this article and his friends and family are feeling unsafe, and I hope that your concerns about the situation can be swiftly resolved. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Since diffs have been requested, here are some that a quick review turns up:

This may shed some more light, here.

The actual dispute at hand in the article itself? Apparently it's over whether this person is a "writer" or "literary essayist", and whether he is a "scholar". SarekOfVulcan has no involvement in the dispute whatsoever that I can find. Uncle G (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Nassim Taleb picked up the phone and called the foundation (or had legal rep do it) because of the dispute over him being a "writer" or "literary essayist". Gee could someone wonder why I might be frustrated at the handling of this? How does that address why Sarekofvulcan just addressed me? Did nothing before or after until I raised caine?

Anybody? This above appears to diminish the gravity of the situation? And also grossly mispresent it.LoveMonkey (talk) 18:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what your question is here. It seems to be, "Why was the issue allowed to be escalated to an (sic) WP:Office?" Which, we have no control over. If Taleb called the Office, that's beyond our control. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Stop[edit]

We have been allowing this to continue for some time, in the interest of giving those associated with Nassim Nicholas Taleb an open forum on issues related to our policy for biographical articles.
However...
LoveMonkey - you have made numerous threats and negative comments about other editors and about administrator SarekOfVulcan's involvement here. This must end immediately. Wikipedia policy is clear: you must edit in a civil and collegial manner, and personal attacks against other editors are unacceptable behavior. Editors should assume that others are working in good faith, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary. Comments and warnings made earlier all appear to be consistent with Wikipedia policy and in direct response to your series of threats and abusive messages.
IbnAmioun - this warning applies to you as well. You have described as threats, harrassment, or stalking edits which to others appear perfectly reasonable attempts to improve articles and follow Wikipedia policy. Attacking other editors in this manner is unacceptable behavior, and it has continued for some days.
If there are further abusive comments or personal attacks in this discussion editors will be blocked from editing briefly. This discussion cannot happen in a reasonable and constructive manner if key participants refuse to communicate in an adult manner.
Please communicate what each of your relationships are with the article subject.
LoveMonkey - you refer to being blocked earlier today or yesterday, but there is no block log record of that. Please clarify.
There has been extensive mention of real life threats. However, there is no evidence presented that anyone participating in Wikipedia is connected to those. If Taleb or a representative called the Wikimedia Foundation, please let us know if you have evidence of or asserted any such relationship between editors here and actual real life threats.
Please explain, briefly, and without any further attacks or insults to other users / editors / administrators.
Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
There are serious problems with the article, about both unreferenced puffery--and the practice of trying to balance it with negative comments about the subject. Rather, a NPOV article needs to be written. A editor who lists "Fields: Scholar, Essayist, Public Intellectual, Statistician, Risk Engineer and Trader" in the infobox is not following NPOV policy, and neither is one who selects negative quotes from reviews. I'm not that happy with Taleb distribution either, which includes the phrase "The term is therefore increasingly used" , wording that typically indicates using WP for original research. I gather from the article on the person that there is criticism to be added here for a balanced article. I would suggest that both Ulner and those who have been called here the Taleb representatives stay clear of editing these articles. Whether or not people with COI should start their own bios, once neutrality is questioned, then they need to refrain. IbnAmioun's complaints amount to a claim of OWNership. DGG (talk) 02:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I have made no threats to anyone. Please clarify.
"LoveMonkey - you have made numerous threats"

LoveMonkey (talk) 13:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

DGG it would be an honor to have you edit the article. The issue is that a very busy editor (with a buddy or two defending him) is editing the article in a negative direction. Fights and questions when their edits are shown to do that. No administrator got involved and or has addressed this. They seem to like to comment on my behavior exclusively. And you know I think no one would really be that up in arms with the editwarring (enough to make the issue WP:Office) but the questionable editor is not only misrepresenting Taleb but a Nobel Peace Prizing Winning Myron Scholes. Bad bad misrepresentation of allot of important persons getting inappropriately thrown in the mix, and it really doesn't belong here. Now this in real world context with the WSJ mention of potential death threats to Taleb&family and I would imagine him abit antsy. So much for sympathy for living people, policy here is more important. LoveMonkey (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
(I mentioned this above in a previous Taleb section. We probably need to consolidate Talib discussions on a subpage.) See [44], where J. Barkley Rosser, Jr., a well-known economist, describes his run-in with Taleb and his supporters. This is a must-read for anybody dealing with this matter. --John Nagle (talk) 15:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Fascinating. Thanks for the link, John. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The article from Rosser mentions no supporters at all. Why the assertion? LoveMonkey (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I recently got interested in this article (beginning of June) and I thought it had some NPOV problems. To try to balance the article I added a reference to a short criticism from Scholes. This citation of Scholes is a fair quote from [[45]], and is not as sometimes has been claimed, taken out of context. I tried to explain my reason for making this edit after complaints by IbnAmioun. Later this section about criticism from Scholes was rewritten by Yechezkel Zilber, and I responded that the new sentence written by him was good. This follows the usual procedure of making edits, discussing, thinking, reaching a compromise - which is characteristic of Wikipedia. In addition to the major edit above, I have made some minor edits trying to change the tone of the article to be more compatible with NPOV.

The users IbnAmioun and LoveMonkey have, instead of discussing the content of the article and trying to reach a compromise, responded with personal attacks. IbnAmioun has as well responded with legal threats. IbnAmioun have recently made a very serious personal attack which in the same section talks about "obsessive users as Ulner" and "threats by unemployed finance people who have been stalking them both PHYSICALLY and on the WEB." I would like the personal attacks and legal threats to stop. Furthermore, I would kindly ask IbnAmioun to delete his comment linking me to "threats by unemployed finance people". Ulner (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

These matters seem very complicated and Ulner is correct regarding his complaint this indeed is uncalled for and a personal attack. The section needs to be removed and IbnAmioun needs to be warned regarding this type of behavior, a short length block might also be in order since there seem to be other instances of personal attacks present from this user on the talkpage. Ulners complaint regarding LoveMonkey seems to me to be mostly without merits, some of LoveMonkeys edits may not be 100% civil but they seem to be good faith edits, if Ulner has any definite proof of Lovemonkeys conduct then I ask that he provide diffs. If these matters continue to haunt the Administrators noticeboard then I suggest that the article and its talkpage be Locked for a week to allow parties to cool down.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 01:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Having read the talk page of Taleb again ([46]) I agree with 194x144 that the LoveMonkey's edits have been made in good faith. Ulner (talk) 06:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
OK. Now in reflection I ask Ulner to go back and look at the Criticism section on the talkpage and how Ulner joined the discussion appearing to argue on behalf of Elroch. Elroch who had just gotten criticized for strongly showing a very nasty personal bias toward Taleb. Elroch's comments and conduct are, or where and could be the cause of such a stir with the Taleb estate. Ulner tacked his comments on at the end of the discussion. This gives the impression that Ulner is now a continuation of elroch.

LoveMonkey (talk) 12:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Again could someone actually address Ulner? And please tell Ulner to address the issues here. Ulner is now making this two discussions one on my talkpage and one here which confuses the whole thing even more.LoveMonkey (talk) 14:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Having realized that the LoveMonkey's edits was made in good faith; [47] - I tried to respond and explain the reason for filing an ANI report against IbnAmioun on LoveMonkey's talk page - but he thinks the discussion should take place here - so I post my response here: "I would like to reply to your comments on the Taleb talk page: [48].

I added the Scholes criticism into the article, and this section was discussed and subsequently given a new formulation of Yechezkel Zilber [49]. I stated that I thought his new formulation was good.

Anyone who does not agree that this new formulation is good can continue to discuss it in the talk page: [50] - state exactly which sentence they think violates NPOV and propose a solution (for example delete the sentence). Anyone who thinks that a sentence in the article constitutes libel can according to the WP:BLP delete or change the sentence immediately.

Instead of following any of these possible routes of action, IbnAmioun has responded with personal attacks of differents kinds and legal threats. You write "...AND THEN CALLED INTO QUESTION ANOTHER EDITOR FOR ADDING BALANCE AND NPOV BACK INTO THE ARTICLE." This is not correct - I called into question the personal attacks and legal threats of IbnAmioun - I have not criticised him for trying to add balance and NPOV back into the article."

Regarding your recent comment: "This gives the impression that Ulner is now a continuation of elroch." I have no connection to Elroch - but I probably share some of his opinions about the article. However, this impression does not justify personal attacks or legal threats in any case. Ulner (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Ulner notes I wrote "You write "...AND THEN CALLED INTO QUESTION ANOTHER EDITOR FOR ADDING BALANCE AND NPOV BACK INTO THE ARTICLE." This contradicts Ulner comments here[51][52]. Ulner posted at the end of a discussion where editor Elroch made claims that Taleb was patently wrong about some pretty big things [53]. Ulner's criticism appears in context to be attempting to justify what Elroch did and stated. This is the edit where Ulner is critical of User:YechezkelZilber's attempt to balance and be NPOV[54]. Ulner is in essences stating that the obvious mistakes that Elroch made (which are bad) are not mistakes and are justifiable to be included because they are in American Stat (which I believe they are not).LoveMonkey (talk) 15:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I really believe that this argument should be placed on mine or LoveMonkey's talk page, but following his suggestion I place it here:
I thought you were refeering to this edit [55] but I realize now that you are refeering to my edit [56].
Yes, I wrote that "But, by claiming that any statements critical of Taleb are defamatory, you are in effect keeping the number of critical statements of Taleb in the article at a minimum". I thought that IbnAmioun's use of language (example: "user beware") and immediately starting to discuss me, not the content ("By posting an ad hominem attack by Scholes you appear to be part of that wave"), suggested that he was attempting to discourage me from making further edits; see nr 3 here [57]. Ulner (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Note Elroch wrote these whoppers of comments against Taleb and by proxy his place of employment and institutes of his accreditation.
"Taleb is blind, or chooses to be blind to the absolute nature of mathematical truth. It is unlikely that he has ever put in the time (supposing he had the ability) to develop the necessary level of understanding of the theory of distributions and measure spaces, still less their natural context in functional analysis."
And
"Taleb indicates by what he writes that he does not understand either the precise meaning of the theorem or the concepts which are used in its statement, but in his naivety he feels qualified to assert its falsity."
And
"These are rather advanced topics only reached at the end of a good mathematics degree course or in a graduate course, which Taleb lacks."
And
Here Elroch takes a veiled swipe at Taled's ancestry.
"Taleb may be proud of his distant ancestry from an Middle Eastern potentate, but it is worth remembering the anecdote about Euclid who reportedly patiently explained to the first king of Egypt that "there is no royal road to geometry. These days it would be appropriate to replace the word "geometry" by mathematics". Hmmm this one implies that Taleb by being Arab is stupid and not sophisticated enough to know the difference. Go Wikipedia!

Ulner then tacked on the end of this list of very inappropriate comments that the American Statistics Journal was validating some of what Elroch was saying [58].
These comments are defamation to Taleb and the academic institutes that gave Taleb his accreditation. After this Ulner then added to the article the Scholes comments out of context and asked YechezkelZilber for sourcing the context YechezkelZilber added to the article.
LoveMonkey (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I wrote that "I guess that some ot the comments of Elroch above has been mentioned in the articles in American Stat, and hence are candidates for inclusion in this Wikipedia article". I found that Elroch's comments about Taleb's critique of the normal distribution interesting, and I thought that this issue is probably mentioned in American Statistician. This is what I meant when I wrote "some of the comments of Elroch". I never intended to support Elroch's sentences about Taleb's education. Ulner (talk) 16:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
YOU JUST NOW CLARIFIED THAT. After Ibn addressed you in good faith on the talkpage.[59] You never made such a distinction. You just kept editing and arguing.[60] You stated you read and understood and that how dare anyone be upset.[61] You and Editor User:AleXd[62] appear to be tag teaming for elroch. Ibn -again- in good faith pointed this out to you [63]LoveMonkey (talk) 16:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
It is easy to misinterpret when discussing non-verbally on the Internet. Still, even when suspecting bad intention of an editor, one should avoid personal attacks, legal threats and try to keep the conversation calm. One should try to be respectful in all communication - for example, on your talk page, you recently wrote "Oh look Ulner is still arguing. No surprise." Ulner (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Still can't take responsibility. Still arguing, still.LoveMonkey (talk) 00:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

LoveMonkey, could you please try to make fewer edits? It makes it very difficult to follow the history like that. Do you not use Preview, or do you just not spot problems until it's too late?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

And could you address the substance of this ANI? Or again are you still only interested in me and not that Wikipedia is being misused. Your comments and behavior are very frustrating and do nothing to address the substance of this. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
The last edit to the article was on June 10. Since then, there have only been 8 edits to the talk page, all of which appear to be well within norms for discussion. Therefore, there is nothing to address at the moment.
You, on the other hand, have posted almost 100 times, in several venues, since you first contacted me on the 10th, all regarding this issue. So yes, yours is the behavior that I'm commenting on.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Really then you notice I have already apologized about the repeat edits before your interruption? [64] This previous diff was my second. Nice to see were your focus lies. Low edits without you ever doing anything other then harass me, interesting. The low edits are due to the spotlight now on it. Good you exploit that. As I am done arguing with you, you as a representative of Wikipedia (you are an administrator) have made it quite clear that no matter how obvious or valid the points I make, you will continue with your ridicule and chaste me. Your singling out of me, is not fixing anything and does nothing but frustrate and distract. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I have no interest in this debate whatsoever but I'm dearly hoping the next section will be entitled "Hammer Time" --LiamE (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There ya go. Egg it on. After I got banned for trying to post ("to the wrong place") when someone made personal attacks (it was called shopping). And with the admins here shooting first and then never finding out. I bet me getting a second hammer is all but done. The policies work in fairly tale land but will get you the hammer when you use them in reality. Oh how dare anyone point out defamation and administrator abuse. God help me for coming to this Professor's defense, stupid stupid me.LoveMonkey (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Way to miss the joke there. As I have pointed out I have no interest in this debate and in fact I dont even know what its about. I was was just scrolling down and passed the heading and a whimsical notion came over me so I expressed it in my post above. If you want to take that as a personal dig feel free to, but as I say I neiher know nor care what has been posted in this discussion so I dont know how you could possibly think it was aimed at you. --