Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive577

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intentional article degradation[edit]

Editor user:off2riorob seems to be trying to degrade the quality of an article 2009 Richmond High School gang rape in order to get it deleted. I don't know why but he seems dead-set on getting the article removed with reversions and all sort of spurious claims about it. This took the cake:

"Actually the worse it is the more chance there is that whoever closes the deletion discussion will be weighted in favour by the poor state of the article when they close. Off2riorob"

Coming from someone trying to improve the article, this sounds innocuous, but he has been conducting a lengthy campaign to delete the article. [1]

He welcomed me to wikipedia but his treatment after that of me and constant reversions has bordered on harrassment (warning me that he'll "report" me) and has really brought editing of the article to a dead halt. Can someone speak to him for me please? I'd just like him to leave me be and let the article develop.

Thank you Richmondian (talk) 18:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

ummm....he seems to be actually removing or advocating removal of material you (and others) have added that substantially degrate the 'keepability' of the article. I don't think you want your actions reviewed to closely, as you seem to be pushing material that would be difficult to keep in an article for biography of living persons reasons. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The claim should be more specific. Removing data may degrade but may also improve an article. If you have a content dispute then you should follow dispute resolution for content. I suggest closing this discussion thread because there is not enough information for editors to provide informed comment. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
(@Ricmondian) Is this some kind of retaliation for Black Kite threatening to take your actions here?--SKATER Speak. 19:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
This discussion should serve as a reminder to administrators that notability, not how well written the article is, should determine an AFD result. This board is to alert administrators so it is not too far off to have a discussion here. In short, content disputes shouldn't be on ANI but reminders to admins to decide on AFD based on notability, not how well written or poorly written an article is. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
yes, i agree suomi, otherwise editors trying to push a delete can simply go and damage an article then say "look how bad it is?" Richmondian (talk) 19:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
So does that mean notability is de facto policy, then? MuZemike 23:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • In case anyone hadn't noticed, the last revert by User:Off2riorob was of an outrageous BLP violation (i.e. the name of the victim) which has since been oversighted, and the editor warned that any further repetition will result in them being blocked indefinitely. Black Kite 19:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
in a sea of reversions that were not BLP violations, Richmondian (talk) 19:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
one good revert in a sea of article

Am I supposed to stumble upon these accusations in order to respond? Off2riorob (talk) 20:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The accusation I that seem to be trying to degrade the quality of an article...As I have not added a single word to the article that is a step too far, imo, Richmondian is a recently created single purpose account who is on a mission as regards the article, and as such would benefit from a mentor. Off2riorob (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree that you should have been alerted to this thread and if this does come down to mentoring, i'll volunteer.--SKATER Speak. 21:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
That's a good offer Skater, although he has as yet shown little or no desire to take any advice. Off2riorob (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I just also read his talk page...could be my inner /b/tard, but him implying Alison didn't know WP:NOTNEWS at his level of experience seemed odd.--SKATER Speak. 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
With the current account policies that is really by the by. Off2riorob (talk) 21:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I haven't taken an exhaustive look at the article's history, but what I have looked at shows Off2riorob doing a fine job enforcing BLP and other core content policies. If claims of his disruption are to continue, I think some diff evidence is in order. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

A somewhat related question: I haven't closed any AfD discussions lately, but isn't the Talk page of an article supposed to have a link back to the AfD thread that discussed it's deletion? I happened to have a look at the talk page of this article, & found it odd that there wasn't one. (And even if it's not required, I think it would be a sign of good faith to have such a link here.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

After the discussion is closed, yes -- looks like it was closed by a non-admin, and then re-opened, though, so you might have looked around then. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I looked between the time it was closed (after Richmondian added his comment about "now we can move on") & the close was re-opened. One reason I was uneasy about the status of this article, & wondered if there was something wrong there. -- llywrch (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

070time070 (talk) may be COI problem[edit]

Every edit to date made by 070time070 has been to add a reference to a particular domain, http://stilltitled.com/. None of them are particularly reliable (this appears to be some sort of ad-hoc blog with no particular organization or claim to authority), and with the exception of a couple references added to the Lord Palmerston page, none of them are even relevant to the text they are theoretically supporting; at best they mention the topic they are supporting by reference, but they aren't actually supporting the text. At first I thought this was just a new editor not familiar with the rules, but the fact that every edit links to the same site, with the same lack of concern for even basic relevance makes me think this may be a COI problem. I've written a few notes/warnings to the user on their talk page, but an admin with better grasp of the exact COI guidelines may wish to keep an eye on them and make sure they either cease this behavior or ban them. --ShadowRangerRIT (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Probably simpler than this - they are trying to advertise their blog. final warning given; if it continues, take to AIV. Tan | 39 20:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
User:38.112.210.2 was originally adding the links at Christine Todd Whitman, Network neutrality, and Network neutrality in the United States. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 00:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

User Vintagekits again at Audley Harrison[edit]

User:Vintagekits is again attempting to reinsert a list of negative poorly cited, not well known derogatory nicknames to the Audley Harrison biography the exact same edit the he was blocked recently for, he has been what looks like WP:FORUMSHOPPING to me at another location here to get what he is claiming to be a consensus to re add these names after there was a strong rejection of his edit at the BLP board and here previous to his block for adding exactly the same thing. The link to the previous discussion at the BNP noticeboard is here . thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 20:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

For convenience here's the link to the BLP/N discussion. (By the time I got through the 6xEC's to fix my link it was already added above)--Cube lurker (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Multiple discussions over the period of a month show a unanimous support for inclusion. All nicknames are sourced.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
One columnist using the nickname does not mean we include it here. Also, the "per WP:BOXING" conversation wasn't specifically about this article. Tan | 39 20:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
"One columnist using the nickname" - so you would rather check the word of Harrisons brother and managers over an experienced editor and EVERY editor on the Boxing Project that says to include it? This just a case of an couple of editors from the BLP pages with wounded pride, a lack of an argument and serious ownership issues.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
How is any of the other nicknames gonna become well known, if they're barred from the article. GoodDay (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Are you implying that it is our job at en.wiki to make someone's nicknames more popular? Tan | 39 20:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Why is it so terrible to add 'atleast' one more nickname. Would it be alright if it's positive? PS: I'm implying that a 'negative' name gives 'balance'. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
We don't determine inclusion of material based on whether or not it is "so terrible". We do it based on strength of sourcing and BLP policy. I see no consensus, at any forum, that these particular nicknames should be included. Note I am (now) involved, so my participation here is not admin-related. Tan | 39 21:04, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
If 'such' nicknames were allowed by the BLP, would that sufice? GoodDay (talk) 21:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
YOU SEE NO CONCENSUS??? HAVE YOU READ THE MONTH LONG DISCUSSION ON THE BOXING PROJECT OR THE MULTIPLE SOURCES PROVED??--Vintagekits (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
It looks like the BLP over-rules WP:BOXING in this incident, Vk. Atleast, that seems to be the case. GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Vintagekits has again put them back in he is effectively edit warring again over the issue. Here is the recent history. Off2riorob (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
There is 100% concensus to include the nickname - there has been a month long discussion to approce it. There is no concensus to remove them - its is sourced information therefore you are edit warring by removing it.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Has anybody checked into the COI concerns at that article? Such concerns were raised months ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course not - Off2riorobb and his mate Cube lurker are too busy defending "their patch" on the BLP page - dont dare disagree with them!!!!!!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Another admin needs to look into this ASAP. There is no "100% consensus". Not even close. the WP:BOXING discussion wasn't specifically about this issue. As far as I'm concerned, VK is merely going back to his old IDIDNTHEARTHAT ways. I am too involved to take action. Tan | 39 21:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
User Good Day has made a request to get the page protected, I have requested if it is protected that it is done with the disputed edit removed. Off2riorob (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
What a loads of balls - everyone on the boxing project agreed to insult both positive and negative nocknames - the Harrison case is specifically referred to. Every nickname is sourced! So what is policy the issue here expcept that we are pandering to the egos of TWO editors that run the BLP page and consider their word law.
Edit within policy and yer fucked - edit outside policy and yer fucked! I suppose it all depends who yer mates are and whos arse ya lick?!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: I've request 'full protection' for the article. I don't wanna see anybody getting blocked. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagkits, you are becoming uncivil, please stay calm. Off2riorob (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the new content and fully protected the page for 3 days. JamieS93 21:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

So you have removed sourced information to satisy two editors POV? Well done!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
At least that calms the situation, thanks. But the not listening and aggressive repeated reinsertion style of editing in respect of an edit that got Vintagekits a two week block beggars belief. Off2riorob (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I want to smash the fucking screen when I read the sdfasdfasdfasdfasdfas that you pass off and the state of events. EVERYTHING I have done is based on FACTS and POLICY and your whole position is based on opinion! This place is a joke.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
VK, ya got 3-days to work with at BLP (the the article is protected). That appears to be the place to get a consensus for your additions. If it doesn't get passed? it'll be towel throwing time. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Right, it there actually an issue here or was all of this just shit stirred up by Off2riorob who cant stand the fact that he isnt getting his own way. Is this an issue for ANI? All of the content that was added to the Harrison article is backed by multiple sources which are reliable sources - including boxing trade magazines and national newspapers. So if they common nicknames, backed up by multiple sources and agreed at the Boxing Project that multiple nicknames should go in the infobox then what is the issue. Less than flattering nicknames are used for multiple fighters - the nickname issue is a big one with regards Harrison so why are we allowing Off2riorob dictate what goes on here? --Vintagekits (talk) 09:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
You take it too personal, it is not me that is dictating what happens here, it is wikipedia policy and guidelines that is resisting you. Please allow me to suggest you take a little time to calm down over this issue. Off2riorob (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Well you are the fuckin one that brought all this too ANI - to me that is shit stirring and making it personal especially when your opening "complaint" doesnt outline an breach of policy. Have you actually got an issue - if so what is it? becuase anytime you are asked a straight question you shift the goal posts. First it was that there werent in common use - I provided multiple sources to prove it was. Then is was because it wasnt in context - I added a paragraph to the article to put it in context (even though the official nickname or no other nickname on wikipedia is explained in the article), then it was because it was derogatory - wikipedia isnt censored so thats a red herring. Then you said there wasnt concensus to use it - the Boxing Project discussed the issue and an overwhelming majority decided that nicknames such as this should be used. What exactly is your issue here? Multiple boxers have nicknames they are commonly known by that they dont like - we arnt here to pander to their emotions, we reflect reality and the sources provided. --Vintagekits (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Guidelines overpower WikiProjects. I had to learn & deal with this fact at WP:HOCKEY concerning usage of diacrtics. Guidelines are no fun, when you're in disagreement with them. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Which guideline or policy is breached by the inclusion of this sourced material.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
WP:BLP. See the link right at the top of this discussion. --John (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Was wondering when I would see the like of your kind drop in. What part of BLP is breached?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Request: Can we close this ANI report? it's turning into a discussion, which should be held at either W:BLP or atleast Audley Harrison. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

User Vintagekits continued aggressive attitude regarding this is starting to upset me, he's shouting around everywhere, his referring to another good faith user as "the likes of your kind" is uncivil in itself. Off2riorob (talk) 17:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
What like the way you tried to warn GoodDay from supporting my position! Get a grip of yerself, stop bitching and address to points raised!--Vintagekits (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe we've reached a 2-editors understanding, at my talkpage. Don King, eat your heart out. GoodDay (talk) 17:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

  • I have started a new BLP noticeboard thread about this. Please direct any further comments there, including proposals/compromises, so discussion can be centralized. Thanks, JamieS93 20:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

user Gilabrand[edit]

I have today created a list: Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel [2]

User:Gilabrand has repeatedly changed the name of the article although there is a requested move right now at the talkpage that the outcome of is not clear. He has changed it to a name that has no connection with the article content and is not even discussed at the talkpage. He claims at the talkpage that its not a list and he has once again changed the name of it, and added content that has nothing to do with the topic, he has also removed image, categories and templates in direct connection to the article [3]

He has also begun name calling [4] the only reason why he remove it was because he was asked at his talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

main namespace article with user talk talkpage[edit]

Resolved

Here's an oddity I don't know how to fix. It looks like User:Msilbergeld used his/her User page as a sandbox to write Dylana Jenson. When the article was moved from userspace to article space, [5], it of course dragged the user's talk page User talk:Msilbergeld with it. We now have an article on the violinist Dylana Jenson, whose talk page is the user talk page of the editor Msilbergeld. The move occurred about six weeks ago, and the article has continued to be edited; and is certainly a notable violinist; so I didn't want to attempt to undo the move, even if I could (I'm not an admin, and am guessing I could not undo the move).

I haven't raised it with the editor yet because a) I doubt he/she could fix it, either and b) seeing as the editor talk page redirects to article talk space, there's no user talk page to leave the appropriate message on.

What's the fix? TJRC (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk page has been moved back and the redirect deleted. BencherliteTalk 21:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I know that articles are not to contain redirects into the user namespace (per WP:R#DELETE) ... but in this case we have the opposite because of where this was created, the user's main user page (not a subpage) is now a redirect to an article.
I can't find a specific policy or guideline against this; but it can be confusing as anyone who follows a sig to the user's page would be redirected to an article - and if they then try to post to the talk page not realizing it's not the user page, it just results in confusion. Should the user's page also be deleted (or at least the redirect blanked)? --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 21:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Deleting it makes sense to me. It doesn't look like it was purposefully created to link to the article spacee. It's just an artifact of the page move from userspace. I'm not sure why WP:R#DELETE was written not to cover this scenario, too. It seems to me that a user --> main redirect is not ordinarily appropriate any more than a main --> user redirect is (wlthough I can see why the latter is more harmful). TJRC (talk) 21:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I fixed the userpage redirect, and have offered some advice on creating a personal sandbox. Mjroots (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to all for addressing this. TJRC (talk) 18:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Damian Nerd[edit]

Resolved

Block and removal of talk page editing rights correct

Clearly not here to contribute constructively. I've indeffed Damian Nerd (talk · contribs) and following this threat I've also denied him access to his talk page. Just notifying here for a second opinion. If it is felt that he should have access to his talk page please feel free to reset. Mjroots (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Five contributions, all vandalism. What's not to block :) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Obviously an appropriate block. Would have done the same myself. MuZemike 22:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks guys, still learning and am happy to be guided by more experienced admins. Mjroots (talk) 22:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Go Chuck Yourself Tour[edit]

This page appears to be a recreation of a recreation of a deleted page per an AfD discussion back in August, I would tag for speedy G4 but as I didn't see what the article looked like before it was deleted, I can't tell if it's eligible for deletion under this criterion. I was wondering if an Administrator could have a look at the deleted revisions and see if they differ from the current one. Jeffrey Mall (talkcontribs) - 02:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

  •  Done the article was substantially identical to the deleted version. Someone should maybe start a discussion with the editor who keeps creating it; he seems to have a bit of a problem with creating multiple non-notable pages, and repeatedly creating the same page after AFD. --Jayron32 02:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Jayron. Jeffrey Mall (talkcontribs) - 03:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Another one?[edit]

Yeah I'm going to have to have a word with this user. Underclass Hero Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Somebody look into this please and I'll see if this user would like to have a quick chat. Jeffrey Mall (talkcontribs) - 03:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted; it's a phoenix. -Jeremy (v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!) 07:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Pmanderson[edit]

Resolved: No admin action warranted. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a formal written complaint about on-going unapologetic uncivil behavior by User:Pmanderson. Out of the blue he seems to have some big problem with me. After I politely asked him to justify his tagging of Formal system, not only did he refuse to do so, he intemperately called for banning me from editing the article. I thought that was a little harsh out of the blue like that. My notion of civility is that we don't need to call the authorities over the slightest little thing. If he thinks this is appropriate, I would suggest that is consistent with a very impatient and arrogant person who doesn't belong in a collaborative environment.

He continued his attitude at WT:MATH in discussing the articles theorem and mathematosis (which I did not write with him in mind, however now...). You will notice that at almost every response I invite him to redeem himself and engage in more civil behavior. He only continues with the insults.

What I think is appropriate is for some administrative types to intervene with their moral leadership by telling him to stop. I would love for this to be done by some of his fellow editors in WP:MATH, as this sort of thing works better coming from peers.

Let the record show, that I have done what I need to do as a good faith editor and civil wp editor to deserve to be free from these attacks. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 04:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I've notified the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 04:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the rare cases of everybody else who has an opinion on a dispute agreeing with Pmanderson, so I see no chance of any fellow editors from WP:MATH telling him to stop. The editor who really needs to stop is Gregbard, who is trying to obfuscate articles related to mathematics and logic. Latest example: According to Gregbard, a theorem is "an idea, concept or abstraction token instances of which are formed using a string of symbols according to both the syntactic rules of a language (also called its grammar) and the transformation rules of a formal system." [6] In case you find this as confusing as I (a logician who knows the meaning of all the words in this gibberish) do: The article previously said, correctly, that a theorem is "a statement proved on the basis of previously accepted or established statements such as axioms."
Since his edit was reverted, he has created two content forks of theorem in order to continue his POV pushing there.
While Gregbard is doing some valuable work categorising and systematising logic related articles, his obfuscationist POV pushing and his ability to seek out and then vigorously push the most eccentric published views on any topic makes him a net negative for Wikipedia. This conflict flares up regularly, and each time he claims it's the experts (usually the mathematicians, since we have only few philosophers in Wikipedia) who are completely wrong and don't understand the topics discussed in the articles he is messing with.
Relevant essays: Primarily WP:COMPETENCE, but also WP:RANDY. Hans Adler 10:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
PS: The core of the discussion can be found at WT:WPM#Theorem. Hans Adler 10:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Pontiff Greg Bard has also just set up what I consider a WP:POINT essay and template at Template:Mathematosis and Wikipedia:Mathematosis based on his own interpretation of what Quine said about mathematicians. Not the sort of thing I'd have done if I was just going to raise an ANI! Dmcq (talk) 11:18, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree however there has been some incivility towards Pontiff Greg Bard. In particular I noticed a statement 'Greg Bard, knowing neither mathematics or philosophy' by User:Pmanderson in the maths project. We should discuss the subject not the person. A particular edit may show misunderstandings but it's best not to generalize to the person. Dmcq (talk) 11:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It takes a lot of self-restraint, though, not to make such personal statements in the 100th unproductive discussion with the same obsessive Randy. Hans Adler 11:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I think that all sides should try to make more of an effort to be civil here. Although, I must say, the existence of the Wikipedia:Mathematosis essay, and the way it seems to be thrown around in an accusatory way by all parties involved, really makes a civil environment more difficult to maintain. I just commented at WT:WPM that I look forward to the day when this essay (as well as the accompanying template) are deleted. Although perhaps it was written with good intentions, its only actual function seems to be to inflame disputes. Le Docteur (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
One of the minor problems here is that GregBard gives no signs of noticing that Quine's coinage of mathematosis is a jeu d'esprit, from a book modelled on Voltaire's Philosophical Dictionary.
One major problem is that Greg's proposed text has muddled the distinction, which his source clearly makes, between a natural language, which has grammar, and a "formal language", which has transformation rules. No string is subject to both. This is elementary to the subject, and is my grounds for holding that he falls under WP:RANDY.
The other major problem is that Greg Bard, who goes around signing himself Pontiff, is accusing everyone else of pride, apparently because we will not defer to his pontifical authority. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No admin action is needed here. GregBard, your options are WP:DR for content matters and WP:RFC if you want to pursue a complaint about PMAnderson. I see some strong language bandied about on both sides of the table, but certainly nothing warranting even a warning. Suggest disengaging from the article for a while to freshen your perspective. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

user Gilabrand[edit]

I have today created a list: Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel [7]

User:Gilabrand has repeatedly changed the name of the article although there is a requested move right now at the talkpage that the outcome of is not clear. He has changed it to a name that has no connection with the article content and is not even discussed at the talkpage. He claims at the talkpage that its not a list and he has once again changed the name of it, and added content that has nothing to do with the topic, he has also removed image, categories and templates in direct connection to the article [8]

He has also begun name calling [9] the only reason why he remove it was because he was asked at his talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Update, this user is now actively vandalizing the article, can an admin please do something? [10] [11] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Both Gilabrand and Supreme Deliciousness violated WP:EDITWAR (and WP:DISRUPT, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPOV, WP:BATTLE... ). They're both blocked for 24 hours. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Any warning at all for either? Tan | 39 14:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
No warning. However - They've both been blocked for abusive behavior before, they've been warned about it. They know what the expectations are. They walked into it aware of the consequences and chose to butt heads that hard anyways... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Template:GenderChristianity[edit]

A small edit war occured on this template early over the inclusion of a 500 year old sketch of a naked Adam and Eve. The user responsible for this edit war is Cajun tiger (talk · contribs). At first I thought this was just a run-of-the-mill "OMG, think of the children!" sort of issue, but on further investigation, I found what appears to be Cajun's website: http://carolinacajun.wordpress.com/ In it, he says: Seems in order to change this I need to get "consensus from the community" that it is offensive (because "what offends you personally is not an issue"). So, if you have a minute, please email info-en-v@wikimedia.org and tell them the picture of the nudes on the Template:GenderChristianity page is offensive to you and would they please remove it. If you have a login to Wikipedia, visit the page (you can search either of the terms below to get there) and post on the "talk" page that you find it offensive... I can confirm that several emails from different individuals have been received at info-en-v, but as I've responded to those, I'm not going to involve myself further on the Wiki side of this. Posting this to let everyone else decide what to do, if anything. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What we do is point out that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This is a case of off-wiki canvassing and WP:Wikilawyering. Toddst1 (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the request from my blog and have requested people not send emails any longer. If any particular person that has emailed becomes a problem, please let me know and I will approach that person personally. My desire is to operate withing the framework of the proper process, but I also am very new to that process, so please bear with me as I learn. I understand that there are pages and pages of information about the proper decorum, and, while I generally try to follow norms of etiquitte (netiquitte?) I don't have the time to read the amount of information about how things work around here. If there were a somewhat brief "getting started" version, that may help. However, I believe my actions have shown that I am willing to work in the process and that includes removing the request from my blog and trying to discuss things orderly on the talk page. I apologise for my error in making the off-wiki request.Cajun tiger (talk) 18:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I have left you a friendly Welcome menu with a bunch of links to make your life easier. I agree - it's hard to complain that you broke the rules if you don't know the basics. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
As I said on another thread, I believe I am partially to blame for this. I directed Cajun tiger to get "community support" and consensus for the change. I meant the Wikipedia community but, being a new user, this could have easily been mistaken (especially in the context of our exchanges) as support from the community who find the images offensive. I apologize for this. Wperdue (talk) 20:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Attack on User:DragonflySixtyseven[edit]

Resolved: Not sure what's going on, but it's not an attack on an admin. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone put a stop to this kind of attack on an admin? None of those articles are even related to the editor badgering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.42.123 (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not an attack, and it's 5 days old, and DS has edited the page himself since then.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Underage users[edit]

Resolved: Appears to have been dealt with by someone more powerful than I. Frmatt (talk) 21:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please deal with this and this. Users not notified for obvious reasons. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Appears to have been dealt with, no diffs found upon clicking. Frmatt (talk) 21:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Yet another backlog on Special:Newpages[edit]

Could some admins and normal editors help clear out the backlog of vandalism here? I swear, some days I'll see articles tagged and deleted in seconds, and other days I'll tag a vandal article and watch it remain up for over 24 hours. A little insignificant Bloated on candy 21:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, we're not supposed to bite the newcomers, are we? :) MuZemike 21:28, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
They're not supposed to bite us, either! MirrorLockup (talk) 22:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Neuromancer[edit]

User:Neuromancer has a consistent pattern of disruptive editing and talk page-inappropriate discussion, most problematically at HIV and Talk:HIV, and as another editor has stated, has "violated nearly every behavioral policy this site has". This user has repeatedly demonstrated an agenda of disrupting HIV-related articles with fringe viewpoints with no substantiation in RS. Despite extensive policy explanations and warnings from other editors, Neuromancer continues to pursue this course, including creating POV forks (HIV dissent, later re-directed, and Alternative HIV viewpoints, currently at AfD) containing synthesis, BLP violations and other problems. The user has been blocked previously for WP:3RR and given multiple warnings at the user talk page and on article talk pages by a large number of editors.

Neuromancer has also contributed several copyright violations, cutting and pasting from copyrighted sources without quoting or citing. This edit contains nine paragraphs copied verbatim from avert.org and a sentence and references copied from another website without citation. Warnings and explanations (Talk:HIV#Copyright_violations_by_Neuromancer, [12]) were ignored, with the user later performing another unreferenced copy and paste from a copyrighted website.

Neuromancer, after threatening to wikistalk ("However, I will be sure to peruse EVERY edit to EVERY article you have contributed to, just on the off chance you have somehow detracted from those articles as well"), has begun to make good on this threat by becoming engaged at Magnetic water treatment (an article on my watchlist), Cancell (an article contributed to by User:MastCell, [[13]) and Medical uses of silver, following talk page interactions, including an accusation of censorship, with a regular silver editor, User:Hipocrite. Each of these editors has warned Neuromancer about a variety of behaviours in the past, with invariably hostile response. The diversity and scope of Neuromancer's disruptions suggests that intervention could be appropriate. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll add my voice, as an involved editor/admin, to the request for some outside eyes here. Neuromancer (talk · contribs) has been active in pressing an AIDS-denialist agenda across numerous articles (representative edit). Issues include:
  • Persistent edit-warring (block log)
  • Canvassing potentially sympathetic editors ([14]), [15], [16], [17]).
  • Most of his non-HIV-related edits seem to be based on Wikihounding; as Keepcalm points out, they're drawn from the contrib histories of editors with whom Neuromancer has been in conflict (followed Hipocrite (talk · contribs) to Dennis Ketcham ([18]), etc).
  • Creation of numerous POV forks, including Alternative HIV viewpoints and HIV dissent.
  • This sort of thing - not that I'm fussed about having my IQ questioned - it's probably barely above room temperature anyway - but it's a bit grating coming from someone who's constantly accusing others of personal attacks and failure to assume good faith.
  • Constant references to a "WP:HIV cabal", by which Neuromancer presumably means editors who hold the "POV" that HIV causes AIDS.
  • Very basic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - despite extensive forum-shopping, and hearing a universal rejection of his proposed edits, Neuromancer keeps repeating the same arguments (see the last 5 or 6 threads at Talk:HIV for examples). He's indicated that he's "not going to stop" just because a "cabal" opposes his edits.
  • He's cut-and-pasted a long section from an AIDS-denialist website, and then complained of having "hours of research" erased when this was reverted (will find diffs).
I would like some outside eyes on the situation, if anyone's willing. I don't want to be melodramatic, but these are the sorts of challenges that Wikipedia needs to handle effectively if it ever hopes to achieve its goal of becoming a serious, respectable reference work. MastCell Talk 21:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Having looked at the diffs, talk pages, and assorted miscellany included here, this looks like a case of POV-pushing, with some intransigent statements by Neuromancer. I fear that this is just a continuation of a problem we've seen several times here over the last few weeks (and probably longer) where people with a strong, but minority or fringe POV feel like they are backed into a corner by consensus against them. While I'm not sure that their behaviour is indicative of a block, is there someone who would be willing (and more knowledgeable than I in these particular subjects) to work with Neuromancer to help them understand why their view is fringe and that this isn't personal, its just community consensus that happens to disagree with what they believe? I would also appreciate hearing from both Neuromancer, MastCell, and Hipocrite about their opinions.
On a semi-related note, how do we allow users such as Neuromancer to feel like they have been given an adequate opportunity to have their point of view heard and discussed and not simply swatted out of the air (not that this has happened here...but can happen very easily). While their points of view may be fringe, and not follow community consensus, how do we continue to honour their contributions while maintaining the integrity of WP, and without driving them away?
I'll return to this conversation a little later...its supper time! Frmatt (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I would agree that Neuromancer has been resistant to guidance, and has been very confrontational at times. The exchanges on Talk:HIV have been lengthy, but I do think some have been constructive - they've dealt with substantive issues, and resulted in edits that improved the article (only incrementally, though). I have not followed the activity outside Talk:HIV, but those diffs are disheartening. The WP culture takes some getting used to, and plunging into HIV was probably a mistake for a new editor. I'd like to see Neuromancer get some guidance, to understand the difference between disagreement and conspiracy. It's tiring and disruptive when an editor insists that others formally prove numerous well-established concepts that are already supported by reliable sources. -- Scray (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
  • As someone who's interacted extensively with Neuromancer on Talk:HIV, I agree most with Scray's characterization. Emw (talk) 00:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
  • As someone who has interacted, discussed, argued, and usually reached something of a consensus with both Scray and Emw (both of whom I have come to admire for their ability to semi effectively deal with me), and whom I have had much more interaction than anyone else involved in this discussion, I would like to to put out there than I am more than open to discourse of policy, disagreement and conspiracy.
  • Additionally, I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a conspiracy to get rid of me, or I would already be gone. My references to the HIV cabal are due to this post on my talk page, and is mostly an attempt at humor, not an impassioned belief that "you are all after me..." Thank you for your patience, and I agree, perhaps HIV was not the place to jump into the Wikipedia as I have. But I am here, and trying to make the best of it. Neuromancer (talk) 00:29, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
As the guy who posted that, it was really in response to Mister Hospodar who happened to post some paranoid kind of stuff on Neuro's user talk. It is supposed to be a smidge humorous; it's actually a rather long-standing joke turned wisdom on wiki. However, I chose that link of all the essays on non-existent cabals to highlight that there is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it. I guess it didn't take the desired effect as Neuro began referring to cabals afterward, rats.
I full well admit that I took and ran, more as humorous jab back at you, and a few others, than anything serious. I don't think there is a cabal, HOWEVER, there are a group of you who very adamantly defend and revert edits on a number of similar pages. After reading your posted words of wisdom, I thought it humorously appropriate to throw it back at you in kind. My references to a cabal have never been more than half-hearted humor in an attempt to lighten the situation. Seeing as how you are the only one who got the joke... Well, crap! Neuromancer (talk) 02:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Heh, well, good to know now then! Thanks for clarifying. JoeSmack Talk 02:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Anyways, here are my words on the subject. Neuro isn't the only fellow who's made himself heard towards AIDS denialism on talk pages over the years. In particular though, there has been a lot of passion from him that is very accusatory, and this more than anything began sparking contention.
I really tried to steer the conversation as much as possible to specific constructive discourse about articles in question [19], but largely this opportunity was not taken advantage of. Instead, in response to his broad debates, there have been several clear, spelled out arguments highlighting the faults in the particular angle he takes on AIDS denialism ([20], [21] to name a couple i did). The AfD for the content fork of AIDS denialism alone should be a pretty clear wake up call.
I think he hears and sees them but is still trying to game policy/guidelines in his favor, such as omitting "although content may be shortened or moved if it gives undue weight to a minor point of view, as explained below." to the WP:YESPOV quote in his response below, etc. There has probably been a bit a wikistalking, and cries of censorship/this must be heard/you can't erase history kind of brew-ha-ha, but I like keeping editors more than loosing them so I would love to see mentoring or fostering of better habits than blocks. JoeSmack Talk 02:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
It appears in regards to his below YESPOV quote with relevant (e.g. oppositional to his motives) info omitted, his response is this: [22]. A fairly by-the-book WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. It could be that mentoring/fostering isn't an option after all. JoeSmack Talk 09:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Also, Special:Contributions/24.251.114.169 and probably Special:Contributions/174.17.102.170 are Neuro, but he denies the latter here. Sockpuppety. JoeSmack Talk 20:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Loudly claims the 24; the 174 geolocates to Phoenix, AZ, where the Fatcat Ballroom & Dance Company is located. - 2/0 (cont.) 00:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Is an WP:SPI warranted, perchance? Crafty (talk) 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Neuro emailed me a protest. If it puts one of these many issues to rest (either way), I think it would be worth it. However, this is right on the line of CheckUser criteria. Up to you. JoeSmack Talk 02:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I doubt CU would be informative. Neuromancer just posted on their talk page pointing out another IP in another region. CheckUser uses the wrong sort of magic pixie dust to determine whether this is IP spoofing, gaming by ideological opponents, off-wiki canvassing, or just one of those things. RBI any account unwilling to discuss and let the AfD run its course would be my advice. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


Offtopic part, my bad. - JoeSmack



Knowing that ANI is not necessarily the place to propose any type of restrictions, I would like to ask Neuromancer if they would be amenable to having an uninvolved editor work with them to help them understand the policies? Specifically, that when Neuromancer finds themselves in an edit/content conflict, that they would invite their mentor/coach into the conversation as someone who is relatively impartial and working to ensure that they understand the policies about WP:FRINGE, WP:RS, WP:POV, especially when they find themselves in conflict. Frmatt (talk) 04:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Email response by Neuromancer posted by 2over0:
I would be most amenable to having an uninvolved editor work with me. I am certainly not trying to cause a disruption to WP. Perhaps an experienced editor/admin, who has not previously been involved in the topics of this debate, would be willing to work with me to fix what appears to be flawed logic. Or at the very least be able to show me a more constructive manner in which to present information that won't be as disruptive as it has been. Who knows... Maybe I'll bring em around to my side? Haha, joking.
end of response by Neuromancer. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
If an appropriate mentor steps forward, this would be possibly the best solution, and could be implemented in tandem with or in lieu of the sanctions I propose below. Neuromancer is a bit forceful and currently frustrated, but I think could be an asset to the project if given a little time and help to come to grips with the peculiar sourcing and neutrality requirements here. Any takers? - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Response by Neuromancer[edit]

I assume that I can weigh in on this conversation?
  • First and foremost, I have edited in good faith, with the intent to better the Wikipedia in general.
  • Secondly, I am not trying to push a fringe POV. This is my understanding, please correct me if I am mistaken...
  • Wikipolicy requires at WP:NPOV that “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” It further requires at WP:YESPOV that “Article content should not be deleted solely on the grounds that it is "POV"" and that "The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints.”
That being said, I have also reviewed WP Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which states:
  • Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.
I fully understand that there are those who think that questioning the science behind HIV is ridiculous and worthy of censoring, however, there are those in the scientific community, who have published peer reviewed papers, questioned many aspects of HIV, AIDS, and the connection between the two. While the cabal[24] currently editing the HIV and AIDS denialism articles claims a NPOV, and that they do not have to give equal eight to fringe POV, a simple review of their resistance to the inclusion of balanced information, whether it be in those articles, or in separate articles, seems very clear that they are not willing to be neutral on the subject.
As far as "Wikistalking" as Hipocrite has accused me of, I cannot even begin to express how petulant that statement is. While I will admit that I have reviewed other editors contributions, and even weighed in on a couple of the articles that they have been involved in, I am not now, nor have I ever, edited an article simply to "frustrate" another editor. This accusation was posted to my talk page by Hipocrite just this morning. While I do tend to have an interest in alternative health treatments, such as HIV, cancer, etc, I have also edited such articles as the Fort hood shooting. I think it is an unfair characterization to say that I am stalking anyone.
When it comes to canvassing... I fail to see how mentioning to another editor that a discussion is taking place that they may be interested in, is somehow a bad thing. I in fact copied this practice from such editors as Verbal and Hipocrite, who routinely post messages on one another's talk pages requesting input regarding a particular topic of debate throughout the Wiki. I have not requested that they take a particular viewpoint, merely that they have expressed interest in the topic in the past, and may be interested in the current conversation. Here is the most recent example I can readily find [25], or Nunh-huh, JoeSmack, TechBear.
I have not cut and pasted long sections from denialist web sites. I did take a list of factors known to cause false positive HIV antibody tests, which had 64 references, and use it in the site, and the original compiler was given credit. The references did not have any DOI or PMID information, let alone being suitable for Wiki formatting. Each and every one of those references was researched, updated, verified to be on point, and formated by me. I would call that hours of research.
As far as the "creation of numerous POV forks... I cannot agree with that. I have created 3 articles here. 2 on the topic of HIV. Initially, I un-forwarded HIV dissent and created article content there. That was nominated for deletion, and reverted back to a forward, the next day, prior to a discussion or consensus being reached. So I then created a new namespace, Alternative HIV viewpoints, where I published relatively the same article, which has also been nominated for deletion. Again, prior to the AfD discussion closing, the article was wiped and forwarded, and for trying to prevent this, I received a 24 hour ban. How is consensus and discussion supposed to take place when there is no article to discuss?
So, salient points:
  • Always in good faith...
  • Been Bold
  • Ignored all rules, except for personal attacks. (Never have I personally attacked an editor)
  • Modified behavior as users have brought potential violations to my attention.
Neuromancer (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I hope someone realizes that it is highly coincidental that a user who has edited what - 5 mainspace articles has somehow overlapped and edit-warred against people he has disagreements with on 4 of them - and those 4 are in totally disparate subjects, with the note that he has expressed an interest in a 5th, totally disparate subject here. How far does AGF go? Hipocrite (talk) 23:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Incidentally, I became involved with Dennis the Menace because I was following AfD, not you. When you nominate an article for delete or merge, it is common courtesy to allow the discussion to take place for the requisite 7 days. Blanking and forwarding is just rude, and makes any discussion difficult. Neuromancer (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Actually, Colloidal Silver has been used in Alternative HIV and Cancer treatments. It is not, as you say, "disparate." I have not intentionally edit warred with anyone. After it was brought to my attention, I changed my behavior. I have been involved in edit controversy in HIV and Alternative HIV Viewpoints. If there is another article you think is relevant, please list it. Neuromancer (talk) 23:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Analysis of Neuromancer's edits: article coincidences[edit]

Neuromancer has to date edited 59 unique articles. Comparing edits with the people notified of this discussion by Keepcalmandcarryon indicates that 54 of those have also been edited by at least one person on the list (I am making comparison using different tools and a little inclusion/exclusion counting, so bear with me as they may measure unique article in different ways; also note that I am involved in several places). Subtracting the AIDS-related articles, usertalk, and a few obviously benign cases gives: Aspartame was edited by Keepcalmandcarryon two days before Neuromancer's first edit; Cancell was not edited by anyone on the list in the days preceding Neuromancer's first edit; Fatcat Ballroom & Dance Company was created by Neuromancer; Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denialism (2nd nomination) is clear, though Denialism itself was edited by Verbal the day before; Kristian Ayre and AfD are clear - Nm probably got there from ARS; Talk:Dennis Ketcham was edited by Hipocrite earlier that day; Talk:Medical uses of silver was recently edited by Hipocrite and MastCell; Talk:Magnetic water treatment was recently edited by Keepcalmandcarryon, Someguy1221, and me; Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catbus had been recently edited by me, but had also been tagged for ARS; Fort Hood shooting and talk had been recently edited by JoeSmack, though that article is highly active right now.

Assuming good faith with respect to the AfDs tagged by the Article Rescue Squadron (none of the contributions were particularly combative except at Denialism which is a mess all around), this leaves: Aspartame, Medical uses of silver, Magnetic water treatment, Dennis Ketcham, and Fort Hood shooting. The last I think can be ignored, as everyone else is editing that article too at the moment, and Nm's edits were not obviously antagonistic; although I do think that there is some confusion regarding wikt:duplicitous and wikt:duplicative. The Ketcham very much looks like an attempt to engage with Hipocrite. For the other three, I do not find the assertion that they were selected without reference to editor to be credible, though I am willing to believe that they find such things interesting. This is again based on X!'s namespace counter, which shows an edit to Talk:Fascism as the clear outlier. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Sanctions[edit]

Based on the behaviors outlined by Keepcalmandcarryon, MastCell, and myself, I propose that Neuromancer be indefinitely topic banned from all HIV and AIDS related articles, broadly construed, and their talkpages; I further propose that they be admonished to avoid extending conflict to unrelated articles and to not seek out or harass any of the above mentioned editors. These remedies to be subject to review at AN/I or ArbCom, preferably less frequently than every three months. I would explicitly leave my talkpage open for any discussion, as we have open threads there and I am still willing to discuss with Neuromancer.

Alternatively, given the failure to follow obvious community norms such as engaging productively with other editors and not seeking out confrontation, multiple attempts to add content in an end-run around consensus, and multiple instances of copying without attribution, including from patently unreliable sources including virusmyth.com and IMDB, a full community ban may be in order. Please discuss these proposals below. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

As Neuromancer has been blocked 48 hours for edit warring, I have volunteered to relay their concerns here if necessary. As always, please refrain from piling on while Nm cannot edit here. - 2/0 (cont.) 00:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Email response by Neuromancer posted by 2over0:

I am repeatedly requested to find consensus before edits, which I have done on HIV, AIDS denialism, Fort Hood shooting, etc, etc.

The only real issue regarding disruptive editing has been in regard to Alternative HIV viewpoints. I understand that I do not own the article. I understand that it may very well be deleted in the near future. However, here are the salient issues that I have:

  • [26], [27], [28], [29] In these edits, the exact same information has been removed each time. Please review the diffs. The entire chapter is properly referenced to scientific publication such as "Applied Environmental Microbiology," "Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences," US patent #4520113, etc. In this edit, there was no regard for the information. There was no consensus reached, or even discussed on the talk page. There is no synthesis. This is not an article that falls within the purview of Medicine. This is an article entitled "Alternative HIV Viewpoints." As it was created, it is not a POV Fork. The idea was to present the claims of scientists who disagree with the current HIV community. There are films being made about these topics. There are papers being published in peer reviewed journals, such as this one in 2008, which dissent on the currently accepted HIV hypothesis.
    • No consensus was reached before wholesale deleting MASSIVE amounts of information. No attempt was made to clean up language accused of being POV. Rather, it was just deleted. Not one person who has attempted to keep this information off of WP has been able to provide a SINGLE citation discrediting the information in this article. Yes, there is a reference to virusmyth.com. It is to source the quote of what certain dissenters believe was wrong with the current information. It's not synth. It's not there to support a medical claim. The reference is there to show where the idea came from. It is one of MANY ideas.
  • Rather than editing the article, it is deleted, forwarded, called synth and POV fork, and unsourced. This is not the case. I have spent hours reading medical journals verifying each of the actual medical claims on this article. Granted, I did start with Christine Johnson's list, which she was credited for. But that is a list. Journal references that were no longer valid, or since debunked, were removed. Each citation was verified and wikified so that others could simply click on the ref and be taken to the article.
  • I am being accused of doing EXACTLY what my accusers are doing. Except that if you actually read the article, and the references, you will see that this is not synth, or a POV fork. Compare it to HIV denialism and try to find more that two duplicate references. HIV denialism focuses on a POV that HIV denialists have caused harm, have been debunked, disproved, etc. Yet there are no references to where they have been disproved. I have looked for these references, and have been unable to locate any. I have found NON scientific articles, written by journalists, and judges, but not anything from the scientific community. Yet when I present actual scientific published works, I am POV pushing. This is not the case.
  • As far as the mad props I have received for being Superman, please review my talk page.

end of response by Neuromancer. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Neuromancer indicates above a willingness to work with a mentor to help them contribute within the project's policies. I think that this could be productive, but am myself both too involved and too unskilled in the area. If anyone is interested in the role, please step forward. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Neuromancer's willingness to accept mentorship is encouraging. However, Neuromancer has yet to recognise their problems with straightforward policies such as copyright violation and sockpuppetry; their insistence that the "other" Arizona IP is not a sock or meatpuppet is, quite frankly, ridiculous. These aren't subtle matters in which a mentor's guidance could help, but I would be pleased to find out otherwise. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:OUTING violations by User:Sir Floyd[edit]

Resolved: Anyone who participates in deliberate outing in the future will be immediately banned. Spellcast (talk) 07:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Frankly I'm tired of some users and their banned IP buddies revealing my personal information, threatening me, and stupidly "mocking" me about my age (I say "stupidly" because if I really am a "kid", then they all think they got banned by a "kid" :). With his edit of 4 November 2009, User:Pantaleone, the latest sock of User:PIO, posted the following on Talk:Republic of Ragusa (addressing me, of course):

  • "PIO, Luigi, Bruno, Giovanni, MacLot, Miranovic, Babic, Sir Floyd and.. they can organize a syndacate for you and your compliance admins! Goodbye troll" [30]

He then proceeded to have a chat with User:Sir Floyd, during which they both "mocked" me calling me "Junior" (LoL :) and revealing my identity. I honestly did not want to raise a fuss out of it all, since I'm supposed to be busy with my studies, so I just warned User:Sir Floyd, pointed out that he is in serious violation of WP:HARASS, and advised him to read that policy [31] (even though I was/am absolutely positive he knew about it full well). I assumed he'd stop. He however seems to feel my warning was "insulting" and has decided he shall continue to to patronize me and reveal my name/personal information on his talkpage [32], and I'm not willing to overlook that no matter how busy I may be. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 01:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I have left Sir Floyd a courtesy note informing him of this thread. Off2riorob (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Off2riorob. I would've done it myself if he didn't feel so passionately about me editing his talkpage. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I was expecting this. If I have offended the Direktor, then I apologise. He himself is no angel and has been giving me grief for a very long time. Please take this into account. Concerning the block editors who frequently visit my talk page, I have no control over them or their comments. Please do an " Ip user check on me". I am from Australia and my IP user number should confirm that. I sincerely hope this is not turning into a witch hunt. Regards Sir Floyd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Floyd (talkcontribs) 02:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I'm sorry too, but since I am actually receiving threats against my person, since this is by no means your first such attack, and since I did actually warn you as politely as I could, only an idiot would take your apology seriously. Lets just stay focused on this issue, none of your standard sidetracking of the discussion pls. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 03:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
"He himself is no angel" is not a motive for your behaviour, Direktor Sir Floyd. You are the master of your own keyboeard. -DePiep (talk) 03:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Direktor you have been very abusive towards me over and over again. What do you expect is going to happen? Does one just lay down and take it. At one stage you threatened to delete everything I wrote. You write in a condescending language and keep coming up with accusations that are way over the top. Maybe we should just agree to a cool off period. Sir Floyd (talk) 03:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Corrected angel behavour (see stroke above). Sir Floyd, if there is a problem, please start your own thread. Behaviour X does not allow behaviour Y. -DePiep (talk) 03:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It is not my nature to go around doing Incidents Reports. I really don't see what I have done is so wrong and why I should be punished. Sir Floyd (talk) 03:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Case in point, Direktor wrote "Goodbye troll". Now where I come from, that's a huge inslut. You don't go around saying to people "troll" without expecting a reaction. Troll is something used when you really want to hurt someone. So how does one react? Those samples of coverstion that Director provided look innocent to me, compared to troll. I really hope that this is not a witch hunt and that there is good will here. (Editors have been debating over articles on Wikipedia since day one)

What is outing anyway? This is the first time I have seen this on Wikipedia, I guess I will have to research it. Also, I'm thinking that I will just put up a sign for the Block Editors to leave me alone. Sir Floyd (talk) 06:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Your attempts at sidetracking this discussion are not gonna work. I obviously never called you a "troll". The transparent "innocent newb" act is also something only an idiot would buy. Not only were you completely aware that it is against policy to reveal personal information, I also warned you and showed you the policy. So please, I know you're clever, but you're not kidding anyone. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 11:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

............and your compliance admins! Goodbye troll" please that was about me! I do not know anything about the above. When did you tell me that, please show me? If you did I'll admit that I was wrong, because I have no memory of it "What is outing anyway?". Furthermore your agressiveness towards me is unwarrented. There are a lot worse things to worry about. Time could be spent on more constructive things. Is it because we don't see eye to eye on things. One could be more respectful of other people's differences. Please stop insulting me and I would appreciate you not writiing in a condescending tone. Sir Floyd (talk) 12:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop talking about the edit made by User:Pantaleone on Talk:Republic of Ragusa [33], and start talking about your repeated violations of WP:HARASS. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:55, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok! Firstly I appreciate the last interaction on Talk:Josip Broz Tito, I'd much rather debate sources & references than what is happening here. I say lets bury the hatchet. Concerning the violations, I apologise (but what did I do?), if you are not happy with my apology could you please present your concerns in point form and I shall address them tomorrow in an orderly academic fashion. This old dog can still learn.Sir Floyd (talk) 14:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


A few things are clear just from looking at this thread (which now appears to be another forum for you two to argue so I'm not really sure it's getting anywhere. Basically:

  • Sir Floyd, you asked 'does one just lay down and take it' and the answer is yes, absolutely an abusive editor thrives on your rising to their insults, if you don't rise to them they'll stop doing it. Anyone can continue an argument by acting immaturely in response to immature actions but a good editor deals with it correctly, warnings, reports etc. If it's not in your nature to raise reports and deal with issues properly then maybe your nature is incompatible with what is expected on WP and you should consider addressing that?
  • From what I can see here neither of you are what I would consider particularly good editors. Even after you requested admin assistance, Direktor, you continue to engage in petty arguments and Sir Floyd you continue to do so even when somebody has raised concerns about your behaviour. Both of these are, in my opinion, signs of editors that are not acting in a way that the WP community expects and therefore maybe you both need admin attention to correct this.
  • Finally, the case of posting personal information. Sir Floyd, this is totally unacceptable and I agree with it being raised on this noticeboard (though you can probbably tell not how it has transpired from there) you have absolutely no right to post any personal information about any user on WP, regardless of whether they're the most respected editor or the worst vandal. There's a reason we have strict policies in place governing this and I strongly recommend you stop doing it.

In summary I think you both need to take a long hard look at your actions on WP and the way you relate with other editors, your argument on this board alone should set alarm bells ringing as to your ability to adhere to the norms of this community. Please don't have a go at me, these are just my observations. RaseaC (talk) 13:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

RaseaC, pardon me all over the place for not being 100% flowery polite - but I'm getting genuine threats of violence here. And not for the first time, either. How's a guy supposed to behave Wiki-like when these guys get together and chat about how I should be "got rid of". Not that that's some indicator of quality in and of itself, but I have well over 20,000 edits on enWiki, I'm fully committed to this place, and I at all times strive to improve WP, its sources, and its neutrality. I frankly resent being talked down to when I report a person who has twice infringed on Wikimedia privacy policy (in spite of warnings), and that person getting away completely clean in the end because I failed to be 100% polite with threats and mockery being directed against me. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Direktor, any inaapropriate response by any editor (new or established) is unacceptable. You are an established user, I know that, and therefore was even more surprised that you rose to the bait, if you like. I will happily leave a note on Sir Floyd's talk explaining what the problem is and suggest that further discussion isn't really necessary on account of it just seems to spiral into argument. Off2riorob made a good point in a previous discussion between you two when he said that you both seem to work together when you don't cross tracks so maybe, assuming Sir Floyd understands his mistake, you take Off2riorob's advice and try and avoid eachother? The next time you get a threat of violence get a block request in and remove the text, if you give up acknowledging them they'll give up annoying you. RaseaC (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi RaseaC. I'm losing the thread of conversation here. I agree with you RaseaC, almost in total. I can be a bit of a hot head, but I am prepared to learn. Sir Floyd (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure this thread is getting anywhere. I think my post on your talk covers the major issues raised by all parties so maybe we're done with discussing it here. How about everyone goes off and does some good work on wiki? The amount of time wasted on this argument is really starting to mount up. RaseaC (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I Sir Floyd agree as an act of good faith, to not contact Direktor and not edit any article that Direktor is actively editing for one month. Sir Floyd (talk) 15:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

User Sir Floyd is posting this (I have moved it from his talkpage) in an attempt to placate this situation. Would this be acceptable to User Direktor? Off2riorob (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I Sir Floyd agree as an act of good faith, to not contact Direktor and not edit any article that Direktor is actively editing for one month. User:Sir Floyd|Sir Floyd 15:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


I'm struggling to understand what the OUTING has to do with the talkpage dispute? They're not even in the same place. This is not about User:Sir Floyd's constant "witch hunt" (as he put it) and his disruptive behavior which led him to post some dozen reports over the past months trying to get me banned whichever way he can.
Guys, I've reported a lot of sockpuppeteers, and I often did my best to make sure they don't resurface. I still think my efforts there were something that helped this website. These socks got together in forums such as the blog of banned User:Brunodam (Google "Brunodam blog"), and in itWiki "cafés" [34]. Every now and again my personal information is posted and I receive various threats. User:Sir Floyd appeared and began fighting tooth-and-nail to get me blocked one way or the other, with the socks and IPs of these banned users frequenting his talkpage. Now I've received another threat, and the IP (of User:PIO) and User:Sir Floyd proceeded to chat about my personal information. I did not report the person immediately, but warned him and pointed the policy out. He then continued his behavior.
User:Sir Floyd is an account that's been trying his absolute best to get me banned in every way conceivable. I can imagine his response if the situation was reversed - I'd probably already be blocked. Again if this thread was about the talkpage dispute I could understand why he's proposing this, but what does all this have to do with him staying away? He seemed perfectly capable of OUTING without even addressing me. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The staying away approach was suggested because both of you seem unable to 'meet' on WP without it quickly becoming an argument. SirFloyd has agreed to this which I think is very noble of him and I must say, despite your experience, established editor status etc. etc. you seem to be carrying this discussion on just for the sake of it. If he is a sockpuppet request a checkuser if he has attempted to out you report him. We all know what he's done, we've all read your posts so far. I suggest that you either take the appropriate action on this matter or you leave it, discussing it on here obviously gets nowhere because if SirFloyd gets involved you guys just argue and if another user gets involved they will just suggest what's already been suggested and you evidently will not pay any attention. I assume you raised a thread on here to get the problem solved, and apparently that's happened because the user has agreed to take action to address your concerns so why keep pushing it? Like I said, if you want further action then raise the relveant investigations, that's your decision, no one elses. RaseaC (talk) 23:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Closing thread[edit]

We have a situation where a long-time banned POV-pushing user, User:PIO (or possibly User:Brunodam), tried to troll and harass Direktor by addressing his identity on User:Sir Floyd's talk page using 66.21.1.75 (talk · contribs). After I emailed Direktor about the IP, he confirmed he would like those edits deleted, so I made an WP:OVERSIGHT request. PIO and his socks have previously disputed with Direktor, so when PIO saw another user (Sir Floyd) in a content dispute with Direktor, PIO posted Direktor's identity on Sir Floyd's talk page. Sir Floyd obviously has no control over what people post on his talk page, so when he responded to PIO's edit, Floyd's edit naturally got oversighted as well since it contained info that PIO posted. Floyd, you said you didn't know what outing was at the start of this thread. Well, I'm sure you know what it is now and that anyone who does it will be immediately banned, so please keep this in mind in the future. As for the talk page issue on Talk:Josip Broz Tito, this is a different matter. Unless anyone has anything constructive to add, I'll be closing this discussion within a day. Spellcast (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record prior to closing this, 66.21.1.75 (talk · contribs) is most definitely Brunodam, not PIO. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

96.36.28.60[edit]

Resolved: IP Editor blocked for 1 week by User:MuZemike

96.36.28.60

Persistent incivility and edit-warring by the above user on Twinking, its talk page and edit summaries. He was taken to task about this some time ago at Wikiquette alerts but the discussion was inconclusive. That discussion details the original instances of incivility and edit warring and itself contains extensive incivility against the uninvolved editors who took up the discussion. While that discussion was taking place, he continued to post uncivil, inflammatory comments towards uninvolved editors on the Twinking talk page: e.g. here. He has again begun edit warring on the Twinking page, reverting with spurious reasons e.g. [35] and trolling the talk page [36]. He also seems to have used a sockpuppet, Stormrider99 in the Wikiquette alerts discussion. Propose a block. bridies (talk) 04:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Appears to be an uncivil editor who reacts negatively when someone tries to inform him of the policies in a polite and civil manner. Endorse a block. Frmatt (talk) 04:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This edit [37] would seem to indicate the IP does not understand our WP:OR,WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY and WP:RS policies. Exxolon (talk) 04:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
IP Blocked 1 week for edit-warring, blatant incivility, and sock puppetry. MuZemike 04:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Do you suppose this [38] is an unblock request? Can't see it working myself. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I try and do my best to make sure nobody is trying to take advantage of the system in place here. I'm open to a review of my block by an uninvolved administrator (given that I just recently messed up on one earlier today). Jeez, already. MuZemike 22:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Not criticizing you here Mike - nothing wrong with the block here. I just happened to notice it - wasn't sure if it would constitute ranting, talkpage abuse or a request for an unblock (if the last, I wouldn't think it has a snowball's - editor very apparently Hasn,tGotIt) Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, wasn't directed at you. MuZemike 00:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
After reviewing this case, it appears that 96.36.28.60 was in fact the victim of false accusations and the block was in fact unjust. It appears that Bridies holds some kind of personal grudge and is looking for any excuse to eliminate someone who has different views than he does. Bridies's definition of incivility seems to be different than the definition I acquired from www.dictionary.com and I see no proof of sock puppetry in this particular case.
If this matter had not already been resolved, I would have proposed a permanent ban on Bridies for obvious trolling. Not trying to step on your toes, MuZemike, but I would recommend a little deeper research on matters instead of being so quick to act upon a 1-sided story. 205.242.88.119 (talk) 13:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Archduke Christoph Franz of Austria-Este AFD and related articles[edit]

Hi. I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at the Archduke Christoph Franz of Austria-Este AFD and the edit histories of the nominated articles, Archduke Christoph Franz of Austria-Este. Archduke Fulvio Marco of Austria-Este and Princess Maria Louise of Brunswick-Lüneburg with particular attention to the edits of the IP editor 68.36.205.151 (talk · contribs). I also think that the edits of that IP editor on articles on Hapsburg-related articles, other than those mentioned, would need attention. Putting my head over the parapet here, but the edits are either unsourced or dubiously sourced and (in full realization of what I am saying here) generally dubious.

I have already made my views known on the sources used, in a forthright manner for lack of a better description, and I think that my involvement at the AFD would preclude me from taking any other course of action. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 00:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Upon closer inspection, this is a clear case of hoaxing to build a fake royal genealogy for someone. It's also obvious sockpuppetry. I am creating an SPI report so that any additional sockpuppets are identified and we have proper records in case the user tries it again in the future. Hans Adler 19:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Bali ultimate has cleaned up most of the affected articles. I just found one or two more, but now the hoax should have been removed except for the three main articles that are currently subject to AfD. Hans Adler 22:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Checkuser has confirmed that Chrisco123 is a sockpuppet of Knyphausen56. I don't know why neither account is blocked yet. DoriSmith found out that the related IPs have made suspicious edits related to the topic as early as April 2007. (See AfD or SPI case.) Hans Adler 09:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed community ban for invasive hoaxing[edit]

By "invasive" I mean that information at other articles was forged to suit the hoax. See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Knyphausen56 for the details. IMO the user needs to be banned, but I guess blocking him can wait until a checkuser has replied. Hans Adler 20:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support it looks to be a student at a very prestigious american boarding school just embarking on an ambitious hoax project. (unforunately prestigious doesn't equal smart and productive). Let's just nip all this in the bud.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Support; deliberate hoax or breaching experiment, our volunteers don't need the hassle and shouldn't have to waste their time fixing this nonsense. EyeSerenetalk 23:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Support a ban as this limp wristed effort falls waaay below the standard I've come to expect in a Wikipedia hoax. Where are the pictures? Where are the ironic hints? Crafty (talk) 23:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the lack of pictures is aggravating. As to ironic hints, at least Knyphausen was a funny choice of username by this student from near the battle site, and the added 56 (as if Wikipedia already had a user of this name) was a nice touch too. Hans Adler 23:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Anti-Nationalist, accusations of anti-Semitism[edit]

Resolved: Anti-Nationalist did not accuse Vecrumba of being an antisemite, and Vecrumba is now blocked for 72 hours. There's no point in continuing this here. Jayjg 01:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Here, Anti-Nationalist, formerly PasswordUsername attacks me as an nationalist anti-Semite:

  1. "When you start caring about content and stop claiming that "unless you were Jewish, the Soviets were the worse of the two evils in Eastern Europe"";
  2. "that "Jewish Bolshevism" is not a standard anti-semitic slur but "an objective observation of the role played by numerous Jews""; and in particular
  3. "or insisting that Jewish scholars shouldn't naturally be seen as objective on the Holocaust because they're Jews"

Briefly:

  1. The Soviets mass deported and murdered Baltic citizens. Hitler brought the Holocaust to the Baltics and Eastern Europe. Jews suffered far more under Hitler, but most others suffered more under Stalin. This is not an opinion, it is simple numbers. I should also mention that Jews suffered more under Stalin's deportations, proportionally, than any other ethnic group.
  2. "Jewish Bolshevism" has its roots in historical events. (Latvians, I should add, were also prominent in the early days of Bolshevism.) In Poland between the wars, Jews (not practicing, of course) were the proselytizers of communism in jails (this per western scholarship, not in any way associated with nationalist sources). To contend it is only a slur with no basis for existing other than to be an anti-Semitic slur is not responsible editing.
  3. I regret Anti-Nationalist has seen to paint me as a rabid anti-Semite, citing a conversation on my user talk page as proof. I invite you to read the entire thread. You will note that most of the thread consists of Boodlesthecat insisting I am making anti-Semitic contentions and putting words into my mouth to that effect. (This was the offshoot of an arbitration going on at the time.)

Now Anti-Nationalist is making the same grossly libelous mischaracterizations of my past statements. I find this disturbingly similar to my interchange with Boodlesthecat here where he associates me with "anti-semitic nationalist bigots."

My best friends starting in kindergarten were Jewish (that is, as soon as I started speaking English). I participated in Seder. I held the chuppah at my best friend's wedding. I will not tolerate being smeared as an anti-Semite. PasswordUsername's new attack-moniker was already an open, taunting affront, but I was willing to let that pass. This, however, is way over the line.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВАtalk 

I didn't call you an anti-semite (that's a conclusion people can draw for themselves if that's how they interpret your pattern of activities). Nothing like that was said, and you have fabricated this whole case based on your false claims. I simply said that you were a nationalist in response to a relentless pattern of WP:HOUNDING me, now being investigated by the Arbs looking over WP:EEML. Point 1. Ask any number of Poles, Belarusians, Czechs, or Gypsies, about the Third Reich, which you see as the better of two evils in the Baltics, if you really believe that "unless you were Jewish, the Soviets were the worse of the two evils in Eastern Europe." Point 2. It is now sourced that "Jewish Bolshevism" is an anti-semitic slur. Point 3. Better stop. Already addressed. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 00:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
You went out of your way to find diffs and to mischaracterize my position and statements in exactly the same manner Boodlesthecat did. You most certainly called me an anti-Semite except for not using the word. Don't split hairs. It was your choice to introduce your complaints on a talk page with accusations, it was your choice to then introduce diffs as to my anti-Semitism in response to my comment to you.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВАtalk  02:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
This has been brought up several times before. What is the proper venue to address this?radek (talk) 00:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Username policy. GiantSnowman 00:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Seriously? What about usernames like User:Nationalist 555 – and what's the whole deal with the anti-nationalist / nationalist / communist / socialist userboxes? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 00:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • You realize that example you cited is indef blocked, right? — Jake Wartenberg 00:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Of course: for his sockpuppetry, not the username. I've seen tons of usernames far worse than "Anti-Nationalist", frankly. But if being anti-nationalist is morally horrible, just what's the real deal with userboxes like these? The userbox section for fascism under Userboxes/Politics offers a grey user box with message "this user identifies as a Fascist" (see it right over here and over here, folks) – but I guess the priority is on paying attention to anti-nationalists. (talk) 00:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Uh, what's the point of linking to the definition of "brosif" here, except as a form of taunting? Am I missing something?radek (talk) 00:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Termer is from a foreign country, mightn't know the meaning, and doesn't assume good faith. That's an explosive mix, Radeksz. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Termer is from a foreign country? That was another interesting thing to know about myself. Please keep it coming, in the end I might find out a lot about myself from you, something that I had no glue about before. So for now I've seen from you that Termer is "from a foreign country and is an ally of a bunch of hardcore Eastern European nationalists, currently being investigated..". have you ever heard of comment on content, not on the contributor? FYI, I'm not investigated by anybody, I don't think I'm from a "foreign country" and I'm an ally of anybody who edits Wikipedia according to WP:RS.--Termer (talk) 01:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
"Termer is from a foreign country" - foreign to who exactly? Surely everyone is from a foreign country when compared with everyone else...? GiantSnowman 01:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks GiantSnowman for spelling out the self-explanatory. how however anybody being from a "foreign country" is related to editing Wikipedia was what I was talking about.--Termer (talk) 02:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I want to note that this isn't the first time that PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist has tried to smear his content opponents, and people he doesn't like in such a way. Here he accuses an anon ip of

  1. Being a sockpuppet of User:Jacurek
  2. and accuses Jacurek of using the anon IP in order to engage in "Holocaust denial", "Holocaust revisionism" and sock puppeting with the ip in order to avoid being "associated with a Polish ultranationalist POV"

He also tried to "associate" me with the anon ip and the supposed "Holocaust revisionism" as well (as can be seen on Jehochman's talk page link above). He continued to insist on this even after denials by Jacurek.

Well, a few days later the anon ip registered as User:Sourcelat0r and explained to PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist why his/her edits were not "Holocaust revisionism" or anything of the kind, but just the opposite. PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist then apologized to the anon ip/Sourcelat0r but has steadfastly refused to apologize to Jacurek for either 1) accusing him of sock puppetry or for 2) accusing him of engaging in "Holocaust revisionism". This shows that:

  1. PU/A-N is very quick to use this tactic to smear people with (when he thought it was Jacurek he jumped to (wrong) conclusions, when he realized it was someone else, he took it back)
  2. PU/A-N doesn't see anything wrong with the tactic, as long as it's directed at someone he doesn't like (no apology for Jacurek).radek (talk) 00:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
My congratulations to Radeksz for showing up so quickly. This is another member of the nationalist WP:EEML list being investigated for coordinated attacks on content opponents. Interesting how soon before the whole WP:TEAM shows up to oh-so tendentiously support Vecrumba in his false accusation that I called him an "anti-semite" – which I've never done even once. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 00:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The fact that I have AN/I on my watchlist is beside the point. I thought the whole incident with Jacurek, where you tried to smear somebody in a very similar way, then refused to apologize, was relevant. Do you think it isn't? If so, please explain. Or do you deny doing any of the above? Starting with the ad-hominem's against myself doesn't "magically" change the way you've acted, as the diffs show.radek (talk) 01:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, but this look more like a smearing campaign against Anti-Nationalist... He never called Vecrumba any name, he just pointed out some of his positions that would be characterised as fringe my mainstream Western scholarship, and which Vecrumba himself saw as indicative of anti-Semitism (strangely, only when someone quoted them, not when he first wrote them). If Anti-Nationalist feels that those comments (some of them in mainspace) are adequate to demonstrate to an uninvolved party the less obvious editing POV of Vecrumba, he should be free to do it. After all, he didn't misrepresent Vecrumba opinions, he just quoted him, and Anti-Nationalist can't be blamed if Vecrumba and maybe other editors find those quotes as characteristic to anti-Semites.Anonimu (talk) 01:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Way to turn this upside and make it do push ups while standing on its head Anonimu. So apparently smearing people with offensive labels isn't *smearing*, it's when someone complains that they have been smeared that they're doing the smearing. Right, Newspeak much? Wacky wacky world of what Wikipedia has become.radek (talk) 01:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
What offensive labels? The only thing close to a label in Vecrumba's diff is "nationalist", which, according to his views, actually is "a term denoting patriotism or love and interest in one's heritage and history" (from his user page). Anti-Nationalist didn't request Vecrumba to consider his own words as conveying anti-Semitism, Vecrumba did it on his own (I'm not saying he was wrong). And yes, requesting administrative action for your personal interpretation of you words, which you attribute to another user, is certainly a form of smearing.Anonimu (talk) 02:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
You well know that my definition of "nationalist" is not how it is used on Wikipedia. On WP it is purely a term of derision. Anti-Nationalist did not "quote" me, he misrepresented me. Period.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВАtalk  02:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
But still, you complained here about a non-existent accusation of "anti-Semitism", trying to denigrate Anti-Nationalist. Aren't all the blue fragments part of your edits on WP? Did Anti-Nationalist somehow succeed in hacking the Wikimedia servers and inserting incriminating edits under your name?Anonimu (talk) 03:01, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
How did I "misrepresent" you? All I did was quote your words (and link to WP:EEML at the page of someone you complained to about my supposed POV) in order to get across the point that your comments about me should be considered as part of a long-running nationalist vendetta. (Since you'd attacked me as a POV pusher, following me to a talk page I'd visited for the first time.) In response to that, you came to AN/I just now, Vecrumba, falsely accusing me of calling you an "anti-semite." Aren't you (and your buddies from WP:EEML) really just pursuing the same old battleground mentality against other editors. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a sad statement on affairs here that when I first started reading this thread, my reaction was not "hmm, who has a convincing argument" nor even "ho hum, more drama at ANI" but "I wonder which side of WP:EEML is represented by which of the participants in this thread". —David Eppstein (talk) 03:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure, people are going to line up in the way you expect them to. But that's because there's a reason for it. And the reason (PasswordUsername smearing people) stands, regardless of who comments on it.radek (talk) 06:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the more ridiculous ANI complaints that I have seen. Most well-formed ANI complaints start with diffs that show that the editor complained about has done something wrong. This complaint against Anti-Nationalist starts with an easily missed single diff showing that Anti-Nationalist has drawn attention to three problematic edits by the complainant Vecrumba, followed by commented diffs of the problematic edits. The diffs prove anti-semitic tendencies by the complainant Vecrumba, which would make it plausible that Anti-Nationalist called Vecrumba anti-semitic. But it appears he didn't. (He did use the word "racist", but without a Jewish connection.) Yet Vecrumba seems to be complaining that that's what Anti-Nationalist meant.

Unless there is a longterm pattern of anti-semitic tendentious editing by the complainant that needs examining, it appears that this thread is resolved. Hans Adler 08:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

If i might add my two cents, and without having any further opinion on the case : any defense agains accusations of anti-semitism with the argument "some of my best friends are Jewish" (or, in User:Vecrumba's own words: "My best friends starting in kindergarten were Jewish") is bloody akward, to say the least.--RCS (talk) 09:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Sorry, all of my best friends were Jewish all through my school years and now well beyond. Exactly what is "awkward" about that unless you believe the accusations of "anti-semitic tendentious editing", in which case feel free to open an AN/I on myself so I can defend myself properly. As for not very problematic below, did you read the entire thread referred to (the last diff), which Anti-Nationalist completely misrepresents regarding what I stated? I am not being combative, I am simply tired of accusations and innuendo to make accusations and having that tolerated. If others don't find this offensive, so be it.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВАtalk  17:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I am simply tired of accusations and innuendo to make accusations and having that tolerated too, Vecrumba. So when time after time after time, you come to join your friends with the same POV in some talk page smear campaign against me as some kind of POV pusher who should be shut up, don't be at all surprised when your own history of harrassment and POV-pushing edits are presented as part of my argument to the contrary. As I've already made clear, there is an ArbCom case in which all of this is already being investigated. I and others have long petitioned you to put an end to your attempts at harrassing, stalking, and gaming, in spite of which you have only popped up repeatedly with more of the same attacks. If you don't want to interact with me, leave me alone or at least discuss the content I am working on, doing so in a manner that conveys at least a little bit of good faith. If you want to constantly engage in the same old tricks, like engaging in harrassment through a secret mailing list (now not-so secret) and relentlessly throw out ad hominems and related attempts to poison the well wherever I go, as you've done over and over and over again, don't expect me to hold back from discussing such behavior or to simply ignore the context in which said behavior occurs. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Without going into the larger dispute, I agree with Hans that this diff is not very problematic, and that diff in itself does not warrant an ANI. --Soman (talk) 10:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree it'd be different if PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist didn't have a history of trying to pull these kind of false smears of people he doesn't like in the past. Please see my comment about what happened with Jacurek above. This is just par for the course for PU/AN.radek (talk) 23:04, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
At no point did Anti-nationalist call Vecrumba anti-semitic. By the way, I would avoid the expression "Some of my best friends are Jewish" which is a cliche. Here's a link to an article about it:[39]. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:16, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I haven't looked into either "Anti-Nationalist" called Vecrumba anti-semitic, "Anti-nationalist" however calls other editors "nationalists" for sure: [40], [41].--Termer (talk) 00:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The fact that Vecrumba said that "all of his best friends in school were Jewish" does not imply that he is in point of fact anti-Semitic. When I was a teen living in Los Angeles my best friend was indeed Jewish, now does that make me anti-Semitic as well? Had Vecrumba added that after making overt anti-Semitic comments, then I would question his statement; however his declaration that his school friends were Jewish should not be used against him.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Nationalist was accused of having called someone anti-semitic when he didn't actually do so. We seem to have trouble deciding whether the person in question is anti-semitic or not, but I don't think that's something we can legitimately do at ANI anyway, and it's clearly not relevant. I suggest closing this thread as resolved. Hans Adler 11:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:IronAngelAlice and Abortion first sentence[edit]

IronAngelAlice has participated in the long, detailed consensus on the Abortion first paragraph. IronAngelAlice has consciously gone against that because Halfdome recklessly altered it. It has been a long time since I've used Rollback on the abortion article, now I've used it twice recently. The user was warned for being a possible sock. I don't know what happened with that. - RoyBoy 01:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 04:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

My first impression is that you misused rollback. AniMate 04:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't have used rollback, but I would have reverted it. The change IAA is making destroys the accuracy of the sentence as well as the long standing compromise.--Tznkai (talk) 19:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
IronAngelAlice (talk · contribs) is also reverting changes across multiple Abortion related articles, with no edit summary or explanation, or discussion on the talk pages. This is disruptive. Cirt (talk) 04:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I understand, though I had no doubt on the reversions, so I used rollback after a normal reversion. IAA did not add anything to Talk, despite the edit summary saying otherwise. - RoyBoy 03:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Pattern of disruptive editing by Pedant17[