Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive597

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BlackJack evading block (part three)[edit]

BlackJack (talk · contribs) who is presently blocked for abusing sockpuppets is again evading his block by editing as an IP ( (talk · contribs)). Could somebody take a look at this? Thanks in advance. -- (talk) 17:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

NEW POLICY: Oppose an AFD, just vandalize[edit]

I submitted an AFD. The person is not notable but maybe his death is. Someone removed the AFD tag and wiped out the AFD. I reported it to AIV and nothing was done. Therefore, unless someone says otherwise, this appears to be the new order -- If you don't like something, wipe it out. Please, if you are an administrator, please tell Cassandra 73 that he can't just remove AFD tags. Revenge No (talk) 23:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The AFD was closed by an admin as a speedy keep. If you'd prefer consensus for a speedy keep, I'd happily help provide that consensus. Reach Out to the Truth 23:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This guy is obscure. In Wikipedia, we write "Murder of --" not "--"

You are just giving excuses. There was vandalism then the speedy keep. So you allow vandalism? At least tell the man, Cassandra 73, that what he did was wrong. I will settle for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revenge No (talkcontribs) 23:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:ATHLETE. Going to the Olympics made him notable, and that's why he was given a page on February 6. He had notability even before his death. Reach Out to the Truth 23:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
For info, removing the AFD was an accident - I rolled back the user because of the totally inappropriate comment the user added in that edit (didn't actually see there was an AFD in there as well until afterwards). Also an article currently linked to on the main page qualifies for a speedy keep. Cassandra 73 (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
(ec)Well, that may be questionable, as I noted on the talk page a moment ago. But apart from that, I fail to see the justification for a speedy close on the AfD, and what appears to be a very hostile reaction to this user's nomination thereof. What gives here? Tarc (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Could have been handled in a more polite manner. Cassandra's error just shows how automated tasks have potential problems. Let's just be nice. As far as WP:ATH, this person doesn't qualify by the Olympics since it hadn't started when he died. However, he probably competed in the World Championships so he qualifies. Spevw (talk) 23:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
In actual practice, we do have a fair number of articles whose entire basis is that the subject's name once appeared on a Winter Olympics roster, with nothing more than that in the article (e.g., no references for them actually competing). Even with the plain meaning of WP:ATHLETE, those articles aren't likely to be deleted - so the real bar of notability is low enough to encompass such articles. Having said that, the manner of this person's death unquestionably makes them posthumously notable regardless. Gavia immer (talk) 02:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I endorse the speedy close if that will help end the wikidrama here. WP:SNOW seems to be in order, and the speedy close minimizes the disruption from a bad nomination -- at least until we get into the meta-discussion here. THF (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This is the comment the user added to the article at the same time [1]. Cassandra 73 (talk)
Yes close this ..He is clearly notable it for WP:ATHLETE for making it to the Olympics and not to mention how he die will be talk about for year and will probably have a big impact on future tracks designs...So i would guess that because of this we will see a few articles arise like track safety..Olympic over site of designs etc.. that would all link to Nodar Kumaritashvili as an examples ... pls see this people for other examples of Olympic fatalities --->Nicolas Bochatay, Kazimierz Kay-Skrzypeski, Knud Enemark Jensen and Francisco Lázaro..Buzzzsherman (talk) 23:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

As the admin who speedily kept the article, I'd been somewhat reticent about taking any further action. However, looking at his history, it seems to me that this user is clearly here only to make a point, and his contrib history suggests that he's somebody's sockpuppet. For that reason, I've blocked this user indefinitely as a disruptive, POINTy SPA. Blueboy96 23:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

That's the feeling I got from him too. He creates an account today, claims Nodar Kumaritashvili isn't notable, nominates the article for deletion, and then goes to AIV and ANI when the AFD is speedy closed. I don't think most new members would immediately be familiar with all of those processes. Reach Out to the Truth 00:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking he reminded me of WossOccurring (talk · contribs), who came to ANI a couple of times when his AFDs weren't going as he liked and accused an editor who reverted him of vandalism [2], although the malformed AFD was odd [3].Cassandra 73 (talk) 00:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - The AfD was an obvious act of vandalism. Removing the AfD tag and speedy keeping the article was simply cleaning up the vandalism. The indef banning was appropriate. The less time we spend on people clearly intent on disruption, the better. It's preferable to lose a few people who might possibly somehow be persuaded to edit constructively than to wear down proven, dedicated contributors. That isn't to say we don't go through the usual warning processes with obviously novice editors, but I do think we can dispense with the niceties when dealing with the rest. Rklawton (talk) 02:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
How was this new user able to create an AfD page with only three previous edits? Aren't ten required? Woogee (talk) 20:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


Resolved: deamed by -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ (Author)

I would like to note that an AfD is up that I think meets G10 (WP:CSD), and I want to bring it to admin attention.
Article: Black people in Australia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black people in Australia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Creator: BigBossBlues (talk · contribs)
Please remove it from wikipedia if it meets this criteria. -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ 04:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how it meets G10; it's not an attack page. I say let the AfD run. And I note that your G10 request (filed after this report here at WP:AN/I was declined.-- Flyguy649 talk 04:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
How about WP:SNOW? Rklawton (talk) 04:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
That makes sense, but I think it should be re-written since it seems to be related to a whole sleu of articles. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 04:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
It's redundant and not sourced, so there's nothing to re-write. Rklawton (talk) 04:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Per WP:SNOW - "However, process for its own sake is not part of Wikipedia policy." Rklawton (talk) 05:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have realized that this is not a CSD. Thanks to the admins who took the time to look. -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ 19:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Orijentolog: community ban[edit]

See thread above for background. Orijentolog (talk · contribs), a user known for aggressive nationalist and anti-semitic editing, was blocked on 27 September for "tendentious editing", initially for 2 days; this had to be immediately increased to two weeks and then indef because of massive block-evading activity through dynamic IPs. Since then, he seems to have continued socking more or less permanently. He has been the subject of two more SPI reports (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Orijentolog/Archive) and the cause of massive disruption forcing protection of the Greco-Persian Wars article and even its talk page. He immediately continued socking through new IPs even after the latest round of blocks yesterday, including revert-warring against users who were trying to clean up his previous block evasion.

I propose treating him as formally and permanently community-banned from now on. Fut.Perf. 08:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Concur Best formalise what is very apparent. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Support, although technically, there's no such thing as permanent, given that the community could change its mind at a later time. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Extremely disruptive user. Athenean (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tea Party protests, 2009[edit]

This article is a bit out of control. It's getting edits like "To demonize, discredit and make fun of the TEA Party Movement, Progressive's have began referring to them as "teabaggers" The term teabagger is American slang for a particularly disgusting homosexual act. Such is the level of sophistication of Obama's Elitist and ACORN astroturf thugs. Also, Obama's Educated Elitist thugs,,," and right now "Despite attempts by International and Progressive elitists to use propaganda to demonize and discredit " (is that code for something?) . I think the article should be included in Wikipedia:General sanctions/Obama article probation. Dougweller (talk) 20:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Saw this at WP:RFPP. Fully protected for one week. Other admins feel free to change it, if there is productive dialogue and/or dispute resolution at the article's talk page. Cirt (talk) 20:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
That's a start and many thanks, but I'm not convinced it will be enough. We'll have to unprotect it at some point, and I think it can justifiably be put under probation, which will provide more tools to keep it under control without full protection. Dougweller (talk) 20:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Silverhorse and date formats[edit]

User:Silverhorse (talk|contribs) has been imposing his preferred date formats on a number of articles ([4], [5], [6], for example). He has been asked to stop many times ([7], [8], [9], etc.). He consistently ignores all communication and only blanks his talk page. The editor seems to do little or nothing else beyond these lame and unhelpful edits. --Amble (talk) 09:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

And what do i do when i find a page that has differnt date formantsSilverhorse (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Leave it alone, as you have been repeatedly asked. Wikipedia day articles go to February 14, not [[14 February]], which is a redirect-watch where it goes when you click. If it's good enough for Wikipedia, it's good enough for you. Surely you can find something productive to do here. Your dating system is not it. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The Wikipedia policy on date policies has been patiently explained to you again and again, with links to Wikipedia:MOSDATE, over the last year. Have you read it? --Amble (talk) 17:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've reviewed this user's contributions and talk page history. He seems to be almost solely dedicated to changing dates to a single format, in violation of WP:MOSDATE which says that styles should not be converted without a style-independent reason. He has received, and blanked without any other reaction, very many warnings about this. This is disruptive editing. I've blocked him for 24 hours. If the disruption does not stop after this, escalating blocks should be applied.  Sandstein  22:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I should mention that some of his format changes are OK: for articles pertaining to a specific English-speaking country, it's acceptable to ensure the article uses that country's usual style and spellings. So for WorkChoices, for example, I think Silverhorse's edits are fine. It's imposing his country's date style on all articles that's the problem. --Amble (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks in Occupation of Baltic States[edit]

Please take attention on User Virgil Lasis (talk) who recently accused user Igny [10] of being extremist. He also argues that all Russian sources should be removed from Wikipedia because Russia is underdeveloped authoritarian country[11] and heavily edit-warred to remove the sources so the article to represent only "official view of Baltic states". I highly suspect this account to belong to one of the banned or topic-banned participants of the EEML mailing list since it was registered in January 2001, when the ArbCom ruling came to force. He nearly repeats some arguments by the EEML members, namely, arguments that Russian sources should be excluded. He also showed familiarity with some Wikipedia's rules such as WP:UNDUE. --Dojarca (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is currently ripe for admin action (what do you want us to do?). To investigate possible sockpuppetry, please use WP:SPI (but remember WP:AGF); to resolve problems involving nationalist conflicts in Eastern Europe, please use the following in this order: (a) WP:DR, (b) WP:CCN, (c) WP:AE per the remedies of WP:DIGWUREN. You should also notify Virgil Lasis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) of this thread.  Sandstein  22:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Can you at least please as an administrator remind this user of Wikipedia's neutrality and civility rules?--Dojarca (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Wiki Greek Basketball involved in online stalking of WP users[edit]

I saw that this individual created an account (as Yellow2010) at the Wikipedia Review and made several posts in which he ranted against several administrators for deciding to ban him from Wikipedia. In one of his posts, he said this:


This Tanthalas39 guy is such a psycho. I can't even begin with all the things he did to me. Some searches on him show him to be at a martial arts school in _. Someone needs to join up at the school and put him in his place.

wikipediareview DOT com/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=844c8736c6726464cb26bb58466846bf&search_in=posts&result_type=posts

(Did not add direct link, type into browser and replace DOT with .)


Apparently he's decided to stalk at least 1 named member via google and posting their personal information on another website (and he's also likely doing this to several other admins he named in a "list" which he also posted on the Wikipedia Review). Based on his posts he definitely appears to be mentally unstable, so I would recommend filing some type of abuse report against him via his IP information. His "list" also named these members (though it didn't contain any personal info that I know of):


Gwen Gale
Tbsdy lives
The Thing That Should Not Be
Seb az86556

wikipediareview DOT com/index.php?showtopic=28529&st=0 (Did not add direct link, type into browser and replace DOT with .)


—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh for Christ's sake, could we just officially ban this guy already? He's gone through more lives than a cat, and he obviously STILL doesn't get it. What's the holdup? Mønster av Arktisk Vinter Kvelden (talk) 08:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes, banning will CERTAINLY stop WGB from acting like this...Doc Quintana (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
According to this[12] he's already banned. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe Wikipedia Review is taking care of this in some capacity.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

For ease of viewing, see here.— dαlus Contribs 09:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Standard Offer"[edit]

I am not sure what exactly this is, but with the thing about this and the other situation, I am just going ahead and start this. I propose that the Wikipedia:Standard offer is hereby revoked from WGB. I believe he voided this a long time ago (as I recall, there was a suicide threat about this and if law enforcement is envoked, according to the SO page, the offer is revoked. Also under "Variations," any more disruption will cause a six month timer to be reset. I seen it grown by a few years in the past week or two, so just make this go away for good. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to add to the suicide threat portion of this, the police were called in that instance, never heard back from them so I don't know what was done/said (if anything) to WGB. - NeutralHomerTalk • 08:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The page said that even if there is a posibility that cops could be involved, it should not be extended or should be revoked. I never received an email about this, but I am sick and tired of seeing this user pop up on ANI on a near daily basis. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I haven't seen his name pop up since he was banned. Although, what are generally the reasons by which this "standard offer" is revoked anyway?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Sorry, I posted on the original thread about this (I can dig it out of archives, if needed) but wasn't aware you needed an email on this as well, my apologizes on that. But I did call them and the cops seemed kinda lost on how to proceed, so nothing may have happened, I am not sure as I never received a call back (though honestly didn't expect one). I do agree with you, WGB has tried, time and time again, the patience of the community and the standard offer should be revoked and he should go far, far away. - NeutralHomerTalk • 08:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Sections "Eligibility" and "Variations" explain on how it can be revoked and the 6 month timer. Even if there is no rule on how to revoke it, I will make one up by coming here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
How about we just don't offer it in the first place? I support revoking it because I don't support it in the first place. A 6 month get out of jail free card when you've exhausted the community's patience is absurd.--Crossmr (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
It's only for people who behave good during the whole 6 months, which to be honest, doesnt happen that often. Soap 13:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Honestly, nobody knows how we'll feel in 6 months about him (or a year, or two). I will almost always disagree with any ban of infinite length (note that indefinite is not the same as infinite, and totally support this indefinite ban). Primary reason? People can change. I think that's the fundamental belief behind WP:SO. In a year, maybe he will have reached out to everyone, apologized, gotten back on their good side, and then he can come back and ask for another chance. Until such time that he has cooled down and at least earned back a little trust of the community, I 100% agree with his ban, but I don't think we should be making decisions that will give others no hope of ever coming back, no matter what they do. If it comes up in 6 months or a year or whatever, then we make the decision about it then, not now. --Shirik  16:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • The standard offer should be totally revoked here. Not only has he admitted to socking (User:Euroleague Basketball Project), but he as also asked at WR for people to advise him on how to sock better without getting noticed. This type of behavior is not acceptable, and we shouldn't think twice about considering WGB permanently banned from Wikipedia. Coffee // have a cup // ark // 19:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • After all the trouble WGB has caused, I definitely agree with revoking the standard offer. A permanent ban is worth considering, but I'm not sure I'd support applying one to WGB yet. RadManCF (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Y'all, please forget it. WGB is community banned, six months is a long time on the Internet, let it be. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Ban him, he's just turned into another Peter Damian. God, do we need another one of those again?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 21:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
He is banned. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • If I'm not mistaken, the "standard offer" is just a general guideline, but not a specific code for banned users to follow if they want to make a legitemate return to active editing. It's a generalized concept - there are some editors who are unbanned prior to the six month mark, and then there are editors who may never be welcomed back to Wikipedia. It needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. In this case, due to the off-wiki harassment of various different users on this site, I would expect that it will be well over a year before anybody seriously discusses unbanning WGB. He has exhausted the community's patience. Master&Expert (Talk) 22:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • If ever there was a case for damnatio memoriae, this is it. Just talking about him (yes, yes, I know, but this is _my_ last mention of this topic forever and anon) gives him what he craves: more fodder for dramatization on WR, more attention, etc. May his name no more be spoken. GJC 05:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • He has a 6-month ban/block. Whether these are lifted after that will depend on his attitude at that time. If his attitude is the same as it has been for the last month or so, it won't be. If his attitude is one of someone who realises that they've done things wrong, but who wants to move on and be constructive, then the lifting can be discussed by the community. Either way, there's a bit under 6 months left until we need to think about it, so let's ignore him and move on. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 11:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Just ignore him. IMHO, this has got to the point where consensus will be against allowing him to return for a very long time. There's nothing more we can do about him on Wikipedia, so let's stop discussing him on weekly basis. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 11:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

User Mcjakeqcool should be unblocked under Wiki:Give'emrope[edit]

I feel that the prospect of User Mcjakeqcool being unblocked under Wiki:Give'emrope should be seriously considered. He fits the bill and is willing for a such motive. JameszJJames (talk) 14:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The guy has a long enough history of problems, and we already have enough to do without having to babysit this editor. Rklawton (talk) 15:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
JameszJJames blocked as a sock of Mcjakeqcool (quack!) - as per [13] it surely should be "Give em enough rope and they'll out themselves."--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I think WP:DENY might be effective with this nuisance. --jpgordon::==( o ) 18:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
No, it won't. His history is a bit unique, and he's not necessarily acting out of a need for attention. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit move war regarding Genesis[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The article once known as Creation according to Genesis was subjected to a move request at Talk:Creation according to Genesis#Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern) (also listed at WP:RM), which concluded with the page being moved to Genesis creation myth. This move was reverted[14] by Til Eulenspiegel (talk · contribs). Til's move was then reverted[15] by Ben Tillman (talk · contribs), and finally re-reverted[16] by Til.

Advice and independent eyes requested. Gabbe (talk) 17:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Please also note the user was warned about inappropriate page moves here, they then removed the notice before moving the page again. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Tillman continues his campaign to strip any semblance of neutral point of view from that particular subject. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't see what the hubbub is about. Okay, so they had a couple of good albums; almost every band does. HalfShadow 17:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
What's the deal with Phil Collins anyways? (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Ha ha. I have amassed a vast number of sources for the theological POV that no part of Genesis meets nearly any definition of "myth" or objecting to its use, but the opposing POV seems to have overruled neutrality. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
To be honest, I have to agree with Til here. It should'nt be called a "myth" nor should it be stated as fact. We are only here to present info, not to persuade people.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 17:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
To be honest, you need to learn the definition of creation myth. It was established as consensus that the first two chapters of Genesis contained one. There's Hindu creation myth, Sumerian creation myth, and we shouldn't change the MOS for some who don't like the formal meaning of the word. Wikipedia is not censored.Auntie E. (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
What exactly do you mean by "consensus"? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
(double ec) This was recently discussed in a requested move, which I closed. Surprisingly (to me at least), there was almost no discussion about the merits of moving to "creation myth" in that discussion; people disagreed about whether it should be "biblical" or "Genesis" creation myth. I just tried to move-protect the page to avoid further warring, but that has already been done. Ucucha 18:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I think you've got Ben Tillman and Til Eulenspiegel mixed up. Til Eulenspiegel was the one who objected with the RM decision, not Ben Tillman. Gabbe (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I have reverted the moves. The RM was legitimate; Til may not overrule it just because he disagrees with the closure. There are other methods to resolve naming issues. ÷seresin 18:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Genesis Creation Myth[edit]

We had established by consensus that this is a creation myth. Why is one person deciding it isn't and totally changing the title back to the one that censors the word? Auntie E. (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

See WP:STICK. It's over lady.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
See the discussion immediately above this one. Ucucha 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a significant number of published theologians both now and going back many decades, who have explicitly disagreed with characterizing Genesis as a "myth" and pointed out numerous objections, but these theologians have been overruled without a true consensus, this has proved inflammatory and has caused incessant protest. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Look, I sympathise with you Til, but the reality is, wikipedia is a place for POV pushers and there's nothing that you can do about it. "Consensus" (AKA, the biggest joke I've ever heard of) has "been formed".--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 18:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


The POV-pushers have triumphed here, further diminishing wikipedia's reputation. I hope they're proud of themselves. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SOAP. For christ's sake. --King Öomie 04:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Ironic way to put it. It's unfortunate that you and Tillman have succeeded in pushing your POV ahead of serving the wikipedia readers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Resolved: Apparent misunderstanding due to conflicting world maps. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to report Nableezy's misconduct again, this time regarding this file: File:BlueLine.jpg (saved on the Commons). First, he reverted legitimate and well-explained change to a map. He is the only one who objected to the changes, and he did not explain his objection. Then, when I reverted his changes and referred to the explanations, he delivered a personal attack at me here: [17], and here: [18]. DrorK (talk) 07:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Drork is literally changing international boundaries on maps. Take a look at his idea of the the boundary between Syria and Israel. You can see from this that southeast of Yeshud Hamalaa Drork has arbitrarily annexed Syrian territory into Israel. nableezy - 08:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Since you didn't look at the latter map closely enough, you haven't noticed that the small triangular area is not part of the Golan Heights but a pre-1967 demilitarized zone. While this information is still relevant to the history of the Golan Heights and the Syrian-Israeli conflict, it is not that relevant to the Israeli-Lebanese conflict. In any event, presenting that line as an international boundary is simply an error, and I explained that on the file's talk page. I adapted the map to show the 1923 international border (last internationally recognized border) and the actual area of UNIFIL deployment. This is also explained on the talk page. DrorK (talk) 08:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, you adapted what you yourself recognize as the border and dsiregarded what the UN, the US, the EU and every map I can find says is the the boundary that separates Israel proper from the occupied Golan. Your own personal belief that the borders recognized throughout the world is incorrect is not reason enough to tamper with what is supposed to be a UN map of a UN demarcated boundary. nableezy - 08:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Look at these official map from the UN website: [19] and here [20] (click on the tif file icon). Next time respect other people's work before accusing them of lying. You could have find these maps yourself. DrorK (talk) 08:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
You know what, the UN does not have that area in Syria as I found in this map. My apologies for assuming you had tampered with the UN recognized boundary. Though most other maps, including the US and EU and other states put that territory in Syria. But I apologize for over-reacting. nableezy - 08:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
To Drork: Regarding the Commons edits, you may want to mention that to Commons admins if you haven't already.--Rockfang (talk) 11:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


Hi guys. I want you to block me to the end of this century. Here: [21], [22], [23]. Thanks and bye. Zenanarh (talk) 08:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

One week block given for deliberate disruptive editing and personal attacks on other editors. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 08:27, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and I'm going to message each of the editors asking them not to take the bait. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 10:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Nominating a page for AFD while tagged with construction[edit]

AFD closed. 20:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Paul Carrigan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • This page was nominated for deletion by Epbr123 (talk · contribs) 7 minutes after it had been moved into mainspace from userspace by the editor that had been working on it, Ash.
  • Epbr123 (talk · contribs) nominated the page for deletion while the page was tagged by Ash with the {{construction}} tag.
  • No effort was made by Epbr123 (talk · contribs) to contact Ash and discuss the matter prior to nominating for deletion, or waiting for the work to be finished and the {{construction}} tag to be removed by the editor that was working on the page.
  • Three editors at the AFD page have called for the withdrawal of the AFD for these reasons. So far, the nominator has failed to withdraw the AFD.

I am one of the three calling for withdrawal of the AFD by the nominator, and as such I will defer to the judgment of other administrators regarding this. Thank you for your time, Cirt (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The Afd process is designed to be fair in situations like this. An admin there will eventually review the article. In the meantime focus on making the article better and there should be no worries. Beach drifter (talk) 19:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Epbr123 (talk · contribs) was also the nominator for the first AFD on the same page. I see no reason why discussion was not first attempted on the article's talk page by Epbr123 (talk · contribs), especially in light of the fact that the page was tagged with {{construction}}. Cirt (talk) 19:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what administrative action is needed here? An article being tagged for being underconstruction is not a block from doing an AfD. Epbr123's not asking the user to move it back to his user space or discussing it before hand might be seen as slightly rude, but certainly nothing worth administrative attention. The numerous calls for withdrawal are not very valid, IMHO. The article was not created "seven" minutes ago, it existed and was deleted before (and AfD you yourself closed as delete). The user has worked on it in user space, so it existed long before its move to article space. AGFing would result in Epbr123 clearly feeling it still does not meet notability requirements and WP:PORNBIO is hotly disputed at the moment. Further, I'm a little surprised that you find Epbr123's actions wrong, yet say nothing of Ash restoring the article only FIVE days after it was deleted in that AfD. No DRV was done, and no additional notability shown. I'd say a CSD and restore to his user space would solve the issue quite nicely. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The actions by Ash were not inappropriate as he had consulted with the deleting admin from the prior AFD (myself), and there were no objections. Cirt (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Update: Epbr123 (talk · contribs) has agreed to withdraw the nomination, if the page is moved back into userspace [24]. An apology is due on my part, as I should have advised Ash to make sure every single sentence on the page is sourced not just to sources listed at the bottom of the page, but more specifically to in-line citations. Cirt (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Update: Another update, AFD was closed by Epbr123 (talk · contribs) [25]. No objections. :) Cirt (talk) 19:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Complaint As the article creator, I am extremely unhappy with this compromise which had nothing to do with me, or any other contributor, but was effectively a quick private negotiation between two administrators, in particular to make Epbr123 feel better about their apparent anti-porn-article deletion campaign and a hastily raised AfD. If there is reason to expect that the article can be improved, then it can be improved while in article space. The grounds for removal have been "special" for no reason apart from potential reasons of effective censorship. As the subject of the article is a well established gay porn film director and the second most credited gay porn actor in the history of gay pornography, there is every reason to expect that notability is already established by applying the WP:GNG guidance. There were no specific BLP concerns that would need speedy deletion and the grounds for the original AfD were PORNBIO which was manifestly incorrect for a specialist genre film director which falls under ARTIST. Rather than resorting to unique non-consensus processes in order to make Epbr123 happy, I suggest the normal AfD process is run for a full seven days, in article space, whilst the article is adjusted until any issues (at least those with some sort of credible rationale) are addressed by a real inclusive consensus process and not by a gentleman's agreement between a couple of admins. Ash (talk) 20:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There was no "private" dialogue, see above diffs. Everything was noted in updates here. I'll defer to other admins regarding the rest of this. Cirt (talk) 21:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I did not reference private dialogue, just a private negotiation. By that I meant that you did not reach a consensus just an agreement between the two of you which you then forced on everyone else. As an aside, I note that you were having a "private" dialogue on Epbr123's user talk page about this matter, so to say "everything" is here above is not strictly true (this is not a complaint about your chat, just clarifying the facts). Ash (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Please work on further improving the page in your subpage userspace instead of continuing to complain, which serves no constructive purpose. Cirt (talk) 21:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, as nobody seems to care I'll just shut up and you can consider the matter resolved. I guess that I was wrong to ask for the AfD to end properly or expect a preference for a consensus building process over individual admins making the decision on what is allowed to exist on Wikipedia based on their personal preferences. Thanks for putting me right. Ash (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Ash, I was even contemplating helping you and working with you to further improve the page in your userspace, but this sort of tone and demenaor and sarcasm is very disappointing. Cirt (talk) 05:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Follow up: Issue is marked as resolved, but I think it's more of a ceasefire. Both sides have good points, but the frustration lies with actual contributors like Ash and myself, who spend most of our time defending our work rather than creating it. For outsiders who may be reading this, censorship is a HUGE problem in WP:WikiProject Pornography. This debate is a mere "tip of the iceberg". -Stillwaterising (talk) 06:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

As this ANI was raised to deal with Epbr123's nomination whilst the article was tagged under construction, and has been resolved, I will raise a DRV for discussion about the non-consensus article deletion which ignored the open AfD discussion. Cirt is disappointed with my tone, which rather misses the bigger issue of a mis-use of a consensus process by more than one admin. As for my frustration, I am not an admin and if some tone flavours my prose this is hardly a serious issue though Cirt is welcome to raise the matter on WQA as an proper forum, rather than deflecting and apparently not hearing my complaint. I have struck the offending comment and I shall try hard to filter my natural sarcastic tendencies. Ash (talk) 06:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I object to this too. The page was moved by Cirt after Epbr123 agreed he would withdraw the nomination if the page was userfied. What I did NOT see was any group consensus (besides unconditional withdrawal of nomination) or Ash's permission. He/she's clearly objecting to these actions and I do as well. Also I asked Cirt to explain his/her closing statement on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Carrigan and he twice completely evaded the question (see User talk:Cirt). Do we need an ANI on this issue as well? -Stillwaterising (talk) 07:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I would say one ANI was enough for the moment to ensure better behaviour from all parties; with no prejudice for appropriate response on future issues. As I suggested above, I have now raised a DRV to specifically discuss the issue of the article deletion. Personally, I have found Cirt approachable and amenable to discussion. Polite persistence is probably the way forward as everyone involved claims good intentions albeit that their viewpoints are at loggerheads. Ash (talk) 10:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment: There is not much else to discuss here. The matter is now currently at DRV, under Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2010_February_15#Paul_Carrigan. The tone and harsh attitude displayed by both Ash (talk · contribs) and Stillwaterising (talk · contribs) above is most inappropriate and disheartening. I have offered to Ash (talk · contribs) that I would be more than willing and actually love to help out and pitch in and work on the User:Ash/Paul Carrigan page in Ash's userspace and improve its quality there myself. However the tone by Ash (talk · contribs) and Stillwaterising (talk · contribs) is not encouraging of positive collaboration in the slightest. Cirt (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Apart from my struck out comment above, I would welcome concrete suggestions on my talk page from any editor who feels my behaviour needs to change to be a better Wikipedian. My persistance in this matter is as I am a strong believer in the benefits of consensus processes on Wikipedia, I apologise if that same persistance makes some people uncomfortable. Ash (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Main Edges use of swastikas in signature.[edit]

Resolved: Blocked as a sock of Pickbothmanlol. Coffee // have a cup // ark // 04:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
collapsed discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
PBML is likely playing games with us, as usual. This is his MO. Make further relevent comments at the SPI report. Nothing for admins to do here, as this is not a forum for discussing the various usages of symbols.--Jayron32 04:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Just to confirm: CU found that Main Edges, The Antifacist and Blue Eyed Zoni are PBML Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

{{Resolved}} Main Edges is using swastikas in his signature which promote nothing but visual fascist views and this must be dealt with imeddietly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Antifacist (talkcontribs) 01:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Click Swastika, educate yourself, and then apologize. Tan | 39 01:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
What Tan said. DuncanHill (talk) 01:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Who said I was using them in a fascist way? <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swastika redacted> 01:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
ec.I think that is also a peace symbol, he is a Buddhist, apparently. Off2riorob (talk) 01:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Buddhists and Nazis, whats the difference? The Antifacist (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow. Are you being deliberately inflammatory? Reyk YO! 01:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Put them at a angle you have a case, leave them as is and they are a revered religous symbol for centuries preceding the Nazis. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 01:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
It's clearly not for Nazi Germany. Trust me, that looks nothing like the Nazi swastika.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 01:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
We don't have to trust you; simply click on swastika. Antifacist, is this a single-purpose account? If so, I'll block you now and save us all a lot of time. Tan | 39 01:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Fuck the Nazis. The Antifacist (talk) 01:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Indeed; bye. Tan | 39 01:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Swastikas were also good luck symbols for aviation pilots in the 1920's and 30's.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 01:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ironically I have reported your username as protional and disruptive. You seem to be here for a point, would you mind sharing with us what it is or if you have been here before? I apoligize if it seems unfriendly but you sure found this place and picked a specific editor out of the crowd pretty quick.Hell In A Bucket (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No point. Tan has already blocked this single-purpose troll for good. Reyk YO! 01:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
FYI, learn how to spell fascist. <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 01:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Given that User:Main Edges is a brand-new account, created just today, the folks commenting here seem rather certain that the purpose of the swastikas is not to be disruptive. Perhaps my AGF tank has a hole in it, but I'm not nearly as sure that is the case. I suggest that a weather eye be kept on this editor's contributions, and if they move into Nazi-related territory (broadly construed, as the local term of art has it), then perhaps the signature ought to be altered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Agree. Tan | 39 02:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I get the impression that even people who've lived their whole lives in India and have never met Westerners in person generally know of the other meaning of the swastika symbol and know that Westerners are often sensitive about it. Aside from that, Im suspicious because Antifacist came here to ANI immediately after creating to post about Main Edge's sig, even though Main Edges had never edited any page that Antifacist had edited. How could he even have known that Main Edges existed? Either they're socks or Antifacist is one person who just so happened to join Wikipedia almost exactly when Main Edges did and just so happened to come across Main Edge's edits and decided that all he cared about was getting Main Edges to change his sig. Soap 02:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Can we get a CU over here please?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Agree. It'd be better off if the swastika was removed altogether, but if the user isn't being disruptive with it, there's no problem. Doc Quintana (talk) 02:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Does nobody consider this or this an unusual action for a 'new' user? HalfShadow 02:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes it casts a shadow but consider wiki is years old now and many edit here. It's possible to do these functions as a IP. If you have sock concerns file a report but mere suspicion for profiency is unwarranted. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 02:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I have nothing to hide. You will not find anything from a CU (whatever that means). <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 02:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Good, because eyes are being kept on you. You're a bit too proficient, and that makes my sockpuppet sense itch. HalfShadow 02:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Then your good with letting a WP:CU check your IP and make sure that you are not a sock of someone, right?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Sure, like I said before you will not find anything. <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 02:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Checkusers don't always win; if they are the same person, he could have decided to use a proxy or a cellphone or something for the throwaway account, and checkuser would not turn that up (altough it would at least geolocate somewhat close if it was a cellphone). Soap 02:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
True. But I still think that this needs to be looked into a bit...--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Go ahead, I need to Pee anyways. I will be Back later. <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 02:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
You mean you don't have a bucket? Rodhullandemu 02:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
What the heck did that mean?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm not a CU. We need someone like J. delanoy over here.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
What is a CU anyway? <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 02:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It wouldn't fly if you turned up at the office and placed a swastika on your desk (rotated or otherwise) claiming you were using it in its context as a Bhuddist symbol and I don't think it should fly here. In Germany you would be breaking the law. It's of no benefit to the project to have this symbol embedded in a signature and if the editor is serious about editing, he won't mind editing without it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. You need to remove this from your sig. And I'm still awaiting that WP:CU....--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 02:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, regardless of this user's past editing history. I also can't say "fuck" at work without some probably serious consequences; this isn't a place of employment. If people are ignorant enough about the history of the swastika (including it's current use in Buddhist society/culture) to get offended, I say, fuck 'em. Tan | 39 02:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
You obviously work in a very polite office then! I repeat: it is illegal in Germany. Try the "ignorant of history" defence there and see how far that gets you. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
This isn't Germany. Tan | 39 03:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
That still does'nt solve the possible socking issue....--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 03:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I still don't know what CU means? <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 03:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Whatever the intention, I believe the use of swastikas in a signature is disruptive. Using it at a userpage is a different matter: there the use can be easily put into proper context of connections with Buddism. But when used in a signature, a swastika has a rather different effect. The predominant public perception of swastika is as a Nazi symbol and this is what the great majority of people will reasonably assume the swastika to mean when they see it in a signature, with rather jarring immediate effect. Even if the user does not mean to cause it, the practical effect of using swastika in a signature is disruptive. Nsk92 (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
    Maybe if he could put links to "Peace" and "Luck" in the signature where the swastikas are, ignorant people could be enlightened. Oh, wait, he already has. Such a shame that no readers know how to click on wikilinks. DuncanHill (talk) 03:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Please. I have checked his userpage before commenting and I well understand that there are alternate usages of swastika that are perfectly benign. My point is that the predominant usage is as a Nazi symbol and this is what most people will assume it to mean upon seeing a signature like that. Nsk92 (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
      Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Quoting from [26], "signatures...encourage civility in discussions". I don't see how this encourages civility when a large proportion of the Western world will - rightly or wrongly - associate this symbol with the Nazis. Look at the amount of debate it is generating here. The solution is simple: remove it, and with it any possibility of misunderstanding. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Did you even click the link that I gave you?--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 03:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
WHAT DOES CU MEAN? <swatiska redacted> The Main Edge <swatiska redacted> 03:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Checkuser. And I've created the SPI for you here. Soap 03:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Pickbothmanlol supports the swastikas. Blue Eyed Zoni (talk) 03:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Click the link smart one.--Coldplay Expért Let's talk 03:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Someone please block User:Blue Eyed Zoni. He admits to being Pickman on the SPI. He is obviously a sock, and possibly the owner of Main Edge. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It's been blocked. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Despite its other meanings the symbol has been hopelessly associated with hate, intolerance, and genocide. It is a shame that this symbol was usurped by such evil people but that is exactly what has happened. The symbol is very likely to be hurtful regardless of any benign meaning or motivation. We should not allow it in a signature. Chillum (Need help? Ask me) 03:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

This symbol has been associated with hate. This symbol is corresponds with "thing that is auspicious". A bit different, I would think. If people cannot understand that, then they really should take the opportunity to read the swastika article. NW (Talk) 03:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The difference is not noticeable in the signature in question (and most people are not aware of this difference). Like I said, the predominant usage of swastika is as a Nazi symbol and there is no doubt that this is what a great majority of people seeing the symbol in the signature will assume it to mean. Yes, they can click on various links and figure out that something else might have been meant, but the immediate effect is going to be quite jarring nonetheless. Similarly, I am pretty sure that the abbreviation KKK has some benign meanings not related to Ku Klux Klan, but it is not a good idea to use it in a signature anyway. Nsk92 (talk) 03:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
But there is no character for this symbol this symbol is there? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Forgetting the touchy subject of the swastika, I thought signatures were only supposed to contain letters of the user's ID, not symbols, pictures, etc. Unless the swastika itself is part of his ID??? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots
Much as we'd all like to debate about swastikas and the like, probably both of these accounts are problematic and there's an open SPI case. There's a good chance they will both be blocked, in which case we can put off the discussion about swastikas for a rainy day. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
There's an impressive level of cultural ignorance on display here. It seems that some people need to travel more. The symbol has not been usurped. That's absurd. Statements like "the predominant usage of swastika is as a Nazi symbol" is flat out wrong and stunningly misinformed. Hundreds of millions of people see it everyday in their environments where it means exactly what it meant long before the Nazis and misinformed Westerners took an interest in it. Nevertheless, using 'religious' and various other symbols in a signature seems like a really bad idea whatever they are, swastikas included. Are users allowed to put symbols associated with Abrahamic and other religions into their signatures or symbols that advertise corporations like McDonalds ? I hope not. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Really, is anyone surprised that PBML has nothing better to do than troll ANI, on Valentine's Day no less? Sad. —DoRD (?) (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I am, however, slightly surprised at the number of more-intelligent folk who got drawn into this. I think we need a corollary to Godwin's Law: any editor employing the swastika in their userpage, their sig, or connected in any way with their Wiki-identity, then batting their lashes and pouting "but it's a Hindu symbol! Really! I mean it!" should be indeffed. I have yet to see a single instance of a user invoking the swastika in such a way who hasn't ended up indeffed, often after a long, tiring debate such as the one above. AGF is fine, and tolerance is grand, but this is en:WP--I doubt highly that there are many people here who are unaware of the Western connotation of the symbol, or that the number of people outraged at its use would likely far outstrip the number of those who have ever seen it used otherwise. What a time-sink--and on a day when you all could have been eating those nasty chalky heart-shaped candies, too. GJC 06:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Hey, to be fair to me, I was pretty sure he was a sock right away. I didn't care less about his swastika use; no way would a new account be that proficient with wikicode. HalfShadow 17:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Symbols in signature?[edit]

Resolved: Explanation understood. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I was told by admin Alison that this "signature": Baseball (crop).jpg Meat eater ant feeding on honey02.jpg Brachinus spPCCA20060328-2821B.jpg would be against the rules. Is that true, and if so, how is it any different than posting other illustrations within a signature? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

If that's your signature, i'm going to make my signature File:Prince logo.svg Doc Quintana (talk) 06:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Pictures are not allowed in signatures per WP:SIG, but unicode symbols are allowed. The Thing // Talk // Contribs 06:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
How 'bout if I make my own symbol as the Artist formerly known as...Doc Quintana (talk)
Ligatures and glyphs are allowed. As are neat characters. :) -- œ 07:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
One could probably reproduce the prince symbol with some carefully crafted unicode and html div boxes.— dαlus Contribs 08:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
To OlEnglish: I'd say no, because technically that is a picture. Minimac (talk) 08:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
What's the specific issue with pictures? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Two main reasons: 1) It takes up a lot of server resources; 2) pictures are more prone to vandalism ... whereas someone could vandalize a normal sig in one place with one edit, if it's a picture it could be replaced with vandalism everywhere with just one edit. Soap 14:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
There was a user who used math-generated "Old English" print (aka Fraktur) in his sig for quite a while and I dont believe anyone forced him to change it. That said, it's a unique situation and I'm not sure whether or not it would violate teh restrictions of WP:SIG; I just know that he was able to do it a couple of years ago. Soap 14:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Another reason is it makes it harder to find a user's posts on a page - try searching this page for the phrase "As are these neat characters" f'rinstance.   pablohablo. 14:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Any unicode characters should be allowed in signatures. However, this was certainly a case where the classical swastika was used to just be disruptive.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 14:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


In support of the above report, JamesJJames appears, because of his editing pattern to be a sockpuppet of Blackjack. His remarks at use-Sarastro1 and on the wiki cricket project discussion would tend to this view as I see it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Something strange...[edit]

Within the past hour there were some vandal/disruptive edits from User:, he was not blocked at the time. The IPs contrib page is now showing a current block, but that 3 month block is dated 19 June 2007. Odd. Also odd is that it says the IP was blocked by Luna Santin who does not appear to have been active for about 33 hours. Probably not a big deal, but someone might want to have a look. Wine Guy~Talk 03:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Software glitch? Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly, there actually was a warning to that IP's talk page just before that time, on that date: [27]. It's likely the block was enacted then. How it got reinstated now is a bit of a mystery, and sort of a coincidence that it happened after recent vandalism. Perhaps the software is... learning... protecting itself... god. Equazcion (talk) 03:18, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)
  • I seem to recall that this happens when an SUL or IP has been blocked on all Wikimedia projects by a steward or global sysop or something (for example due to cross-wiki vandalism). I'm unsure of the details on where this is logged, but it doesn't show up in the block log. However, the software knows he's blocked, so it shows the most recent block from the block log. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
    • That seems like a good explanation. Still, mine is more interesting, don't you think? Equazcion (talk) 03:32, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)
  • Doesn't look like it is a global block [28]. I don't know what you're talking about, HAL. I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen... ... yeah maybe it was a software glitch?;) Wine Guy~Talk 04:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • If it was a global account lock, it could've been oversighted, so you might not be able to find a particular account in the logs. See [29] -- "(log action removed)". Equazcion (talk) 15:38, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)
What I'm interested in is what will happen after three months. Will he still be blocked? Also what happens if one where to try and unblock this IP? Rgoodermote  01:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Hmmmm... block has now disappeared. Perhaps an admin issued a 31 hour block and it somehow didn't register properly in the logs? Since I'm not an sysop (or a developer) I'm not familiar enough with what goes on behind the curtain to know if that's even possible. I do have a screenshot of the user's contrib page while the phantom block was in place, in case anyone else wants to have a look. Wine Guy~Talk 18:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Request for a "Civility lecture"[edit]

Could an administrator please have a chat or give a warning on the use of words such as fraudulent or lie to User talk:Pmanderson? The use of that word on my talk page is totally uncalled for in a minor discussion of the source for a map, namely: File_talk:Catholicpopulationsnew.png#Source_and_accuracy. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Village Pump topic? Administrator not needed? Or does the status of an administrator carry more weight? Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
What's needed here is a stern warning to History2007 against tendentious editing and disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behaviour. Which he'll get from me, now. Fut.Perf. 19:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I fully disagree with the tone and behavior of Fut.Perf. The IDIDNTHEARTHAT accusation is not valid since the discussion had only 4 steps, so it does not apply and shows bias. How does one make a complaint against a one sided administrator please? I think administrators need to be unbiased. The other user has repeatedly used the words fraud and lie to refer to multiple other users. And I get a lecture? Another user compared that type of admin bahavior to North Korea judges. I think Fut.Perf. should reverse himself, for being biased. History2007 (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
So disagreeing with you constitutes "bias", while wikilawyering, personal comments and indirect "FutPerf is like a north korean judge" comments constitute the model of behaviour we should all aspire to? I'm beginning to agree that it's you who needs the lecture. Ironholds (talk) 21:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I had not thought of North Korea until another user mentioned it. It was not my starting suggestion. And does it matter that after inspection the map in question turned out to have errors after all and I was right in questioning its accuracy? The debate started by my adding a comment that I was "uncertain about the accuracy of the map". That statement was called fraudulent upfront. A totally unjustified accusation in my view. It turns out that I was right and the map had errors. And in my view IDIDNTHEARTHAT did not and does not apply to me because the discussion had just started. Do I not have the right to question the actions of FutPerf? I think I do have the right to question the accuracy of maps and the lectures issued by admins who seem to be trigger happy in my view. By the way, I have repeatedly asked Fut.Perfect to explain his use of IDIDNTHEARTHAT and he has avoided that question so far. I will have to assume he has no answer, and will have to ignore him. History2007 (talk) 22:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
As an aside, I should say that the real source of the problem is the lack of technology. I added this to my list of suggestions for better Wikipedia technology. One that these features will arrive, for they are already described within Wikipedia. History2007 (talk) 01:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue here is simple:

  • There is a template which consists of various countries of the world, tinted depending on the percentage of Catholics in that country.
  • It has an explicit source for the percentages of Catholics.
  • Its File page contains a link to that source.
  • History2007 nevertheless insists that it is unsourced, and has even taken to commenting out the link to the source.
  • He also claims that it is impossible to verify the numbers, although the file talk page has done so since - and found two or three slips, including one case where the source seems to be wrong.

It is the last two I called fraud. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly so. I specifically said that there was no map source, and I still say that. As I said: "The claimed source for this file has no map, just numbers." So I do not consider that a source. I never used the word impossible. That word appears on the page only once and was used by someone else. As is, there are several errors in the map (a few countries in Africa also seem incorrect). I think this type of no-map source sourcing is error-prone, based on old technology and we have seen how errors appear when it is used. In general PMA, you have used the words lie and fraud several times elsewhere, so please do not deny your affection for said words. There is no reason for using such words. And I maintain that I was absolutely right to question the map's accuracy. History2007 (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
History2007's contention that we somehow may not compile a tinted map of the countries of the world from a list of statistics has been tried on the file talk page, and gotten no traction. (If the original source had a map, we could not use it; it would be copyright violation.) Whether this is disingenuous is another question, which I do not expect to settle here.
I see Future Perfect has already spoken to History2007, and gotten nowhere. Are stronger measures warranted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, I can not agree with that characterization. Here is "exactly" how this discussion started. It started by my saying that I liked the map, and another user (Nancy) said that it was unsourced. Here is the "exact" copy of the discussion: [30] [31] [32]

I do not understand the situation with the map. Personally I find maps very informative in general, be they about churches, supermarkets or product usage maps. There is a source on the map page on Wikimedia, but the stated source has no map, just numbers. How do we know that the numbers correspond to the map? But a map would be very nice if a reliable one can be found. History2007 (talk) 03:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
We had this map in our article before. I put it there. It was roundly tossed by many editors who kept saying it was unsourced. I am not in favor of keeping unsourced information in the article, it will not pass through FA so why keep putting this in there? NancyHeise talk 15:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually I went to the map page and removed the claim that it has a source. So as is, it is unsourced. I left a message for the person who loaded the map to see what the source was. Have not had a response yet. The data "looks right" but that does not constitute a source. I think if no source is found the map has to go, but I do wish a new map could be found. This current unsourced map was informative to me, and I would hope that a sourced one can be found. As for FA passage, I pay no attention to ratings, what matters is how informative the article is with reliable sources. History2007 (talk) 15:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

So I was not the first person to call the map unsourced. In fact, I liked the map, found it informative, and only questioned its source after Nancy alerted me to it. Hence your argument is not valid at all. My intention had no "fraud" involved, and as the discussion shows I had hoped for a sourced map, or an answer from the user who created it, to confirm the source. And in fact, I did, and still do hope for a good, informative and sourced map. And my hunch about inaccuracies in the map was correct. Period. History2007 (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Serendipodous "contemplating suicide"[edit]

Resolved: No admin action is required. Ruslik_Zero 19:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Serendipodous (talk · contribs) has posted at User talk:Spartaz#Sorry saying that s/he has been contemplating suicide. Per WP:SUICIDE, would some administrators take a look at this and take the necessary action? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I suffer from clinical depression. I contemplate suicide at least once a month. Serendipodous 19:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
It's not Wikipedia's problem. The user is welcome to edit constructively at any time they wish, but their life is their own. Doc Quintana (talk) 23:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
If the user is actively contemplating suicide, then they need to call their local police and have themselves admitted. If they can't, per WP:SUICIDE, we can. A checkuser is available (if you can find one) to get their IP address and make the call themselves. I must also stress to Serendipodous that if you are contemplating suicide, also per WP:SUICIDE, you account can be blocked (not by me, not an admin) as it has been done in these cases in the past. If you are feeling that down, I recommend going into your local hospital and having yourself admitted and getting the help you need. Wikipedia can't do that for you, but we don't want to see anything happen to you either. - NeutralHomerTalk • 03:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate the importance of this issue, but WP:SUICIDE is merely an essay, to be used a resource but not enforceable policy. Shouldn't WP:SUICIDE be ratified into policy ASAP? Also, contemplating and threating suicide are two separate things, IMHO. -Stillwaterising (talk) 06:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Policy? My god, no. The last thing we should be doing is codifying a requirement for admins to rush out and find checkusers and contacting local police every time someone expresses bad thoughts. This is an encyclopedia project, not a virtual psychologist's couch. Tarc (talk) 15:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Blocked user socking?[edit]

N0th1ngwow (talk · contribs) first appeared immediately after Cladu1u (talk · contribs) was blocked, and is editing several of the articles which Cladu1u edited before being blocked. These edits may be perfectly correct, but I have no idea if they are or not, since I don't know anything about Eastern European footballers and stadiums. Could somebody take a look? Woogee (talk) 21:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Blocked per WP:DUCK. As for the contribs, they don't seem obviously vandalistic, though perhaps not specifically in line with the MOS. GlassCobra 09:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
He changed the numbers of caps some of the players have had, I have no idea if his edits were correct or not. Woogee (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Escalating IP problem[edit]

My edits on the List of heads of state of Yugoslavia and Yugoslav Prime Minister articles have managed to attract a highly disruptive IP user (94.189.../95.236...), and the problem is now escalating as the IP has apparently decided to spread his own brand of (completely unsourced) POV to a number of articles. I'd like to request aid in resolving the issue. I'd honestly prefer a range-block, since semi-protecting the articles only made him "seek new battlegrounds" for the edit-war. The appropriate course of action is naturally up to whomever lends a hand. The effected articles and templates are:

--DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is the dispute here? I don't see that the IP's edits are prima facie disruptive or vandalistic. You seem both to have broken 3RR at least [33]. What is this about? Fut.Perf. 00:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Sigh... in short, the IP has no idea how the place works, and he won't try to understand. Must be the fourth this month. His edits are not vandalism, but the account fanatically insists on petty nonsense alterations without the slightest idea of how Wikipedia works or how the templates he's editing are organized. Forget sources, forget Google tests, consensus... he feels this is the right way and pushes on every day to no end. I am biased in this, but objectively, do not imagine this is some kind of genuine content dispute - its simply yet another Balkans IP with ideas of what's "right", except this one is more persistent than most, that's all. (I could start listing examples but it would be WP:TLDR.)
The whole thing is really getting out of hand and spreading. Cirt helped out, but as soon as his semi-protection was up the IPs returned. PRODUCER's reverted the IPs afew times, they just keep coming back... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
For the record, it was yet another IP sock. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible outing by User:Likebox[edit]

Resolved: source confirmed to be User:Brews ohare, so no outing possible--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

In this [34] edit, after the text "recognized well-cited expert", User:Likebox included a link to what looks like the professional bio of User:Brews ohare. As the editor does not use his real name to edit, or give any personal information on his own pages, it seems to be a case of WP:OUTING, though maybe not deliberate.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Seems as though it would probably be taken care of directly in the ArbCom request... Tan | 39 16:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The "outing" incident occured a while ago, when Brews referenced his own work on his talk page. Others talked about his identity in the past as well, and I have been in email contact with him, and gave him a draft of the motion to comment on before submitting. I am aware of the policy regarding outing.Likebox (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

(deindent) JohBlackburne did not bother to ask either myself or Brews about this. He came straight here. This forum is not meant as a first recourse but as a last recourse. I hope that Admins do not tolerate this kind of thing from experienced editors.Likebox (talk) 17:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you show where this forum is defined as being a "last recourse"? Tan | 39 17:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
There is the bold print at the top of the page that says Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I notice that that bold print does not say, "last recourse". I think it's pretty well-established that reports of potential OUTING violations go here on ANI. Tan | 39 17:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Well if you want to encourage posting here about things that have sat on arbcom pages for a week without complaint I won't stand in the way. I would think though that this could have been handled with communication before ANI.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
And if you want to encourage rhetoric such as "I hope that Admins do not tolerate this kind of thing", I won't stand in the way. Tan | 39 17:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
If your complaint is his rhetoric, then ask him to lay off the rhetoric. Don't criticize the part he got correct.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, he (or you) didn't "get it correct". However, this is probably a pretty stupid argument to be having. Tan | 39 18:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I was going by the text at WP:OUTING as well as my own common sense that discussing it first in any other place would only make the problem worse, if it is a problem, by broadcasting it further. As it is it's likely been noticed by only a few people (I only just noticed it). As noted I don't think it's deliberate or malicious, but my reading of the policy is it should not have been posted and may need administrator intervention to remedy.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 18:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
(ec) Ah - it appears that Brews has no problem with his real-life identity being linked with his Wikipedia nick. There are significant elements in common between the two names. He raised no objection to the use of the exact link in question in the past (LinkSearch), including during an Arbitration Enforcement discussion. Most important, he has posted an open letter on Jimbo's talk page, explicitly identifying himself by name and credentials: [35]. All of this could have easily been settled with a couple of quiet messages among the parties; there was no need to come to AN/I.
Note that if this had been a genuine case of outing, announcing it here – on a page watched by thousands of editors – would have been nearly the worst possible way to protect the editor's privacy. Next time, delete the offending link from the page in question (pending clarification), quietly contact the involved editors (if and as appropriate), and make an email request to the oversighters. In short, follow the directions at WP:OUTING — to which you linked in your original report. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
From WP:OUTING "attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block." I have no complaints with this sensible policy, but I am unhappy that this type of ANI announcement is not flagged as improper. When you are engaged in some lengthy arbitration disputes with another editor, it isn't proper to make frivolous accusations regarding such a serious thing as outing.Likebox (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. A handful of links scattered over WPs vastness are not convincing as there are a number of reasons that the user might not have challenged them. But the link to Jimbo Wales' talk page and also here User_talk:Brews_ohare#Brews_ohare topic banned (easily overlooked given the length of the page) are convincing. It would be clearer if he put the details or a link somewhere more prominent, but he's put them somewhere which is the main thing.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

problematic user[edit]

Resolved: Blocked indef. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

could someone please look at Ice Pencil Made of Glass (talk · contribs)? he's carefully skirting obvious vandalism, but he's making a whole lot of problematic noise, and has an unfortunate fixation on glass slivers. --Ludwigs2 18:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

This guy is enjoying his conflict of interest, especially with edits like [36], [37], [38], [39] and [40] which make no sense in my opinion. Minimac (talk) 19:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I think he's just aiming for the 'gross out' factor of people cutting themselves with broken glass. he even worked in a broken glass reference when he flagged Princess Elisabeth of Belgium as a BLP. [41]--Ludwigs2 19:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I think you should leave him/her alone. Looks like it's starting to verge on WP:HOUND. Toddst1 (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm all for AGF, but let's look at the edits [42] as well as the user page and the edit summaries. Someone here is playing a game. Sometimes the only way to win, is not to play.Corrected link--Cube lurker (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I got the note. sorry, I just thought I was reverting tendentious vandalism. if you disagree I'm not going to argue about it. --Ludwigs2 19:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Indefinitely blocked. Wikipedia is not for playing silly buggers. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Good block. Although I have to quibble, perhaps you meant "Wikipedia shouldn't be for playing silly buggers, but a lot of times, it is, but in this one instance I have put a stop to it". --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Carl Hewitt[edit]

Prof. Hewitt and/or his followers are at it again: