Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive62

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Invalidly "licensed" image[edit]

This image [1] was uploaded about a year ago, identified as a "private photo," and supposedly GFDL-licensed by an editor who did not have any rights in the image to license. None of the standard IFD processes appear to apply in this case. The image is plainly not a "private photo"; it is clearly a video capture/screenshot (note the characteristic distortion at the bottom of the picture). The image is drawn from a commercial bootleg video, and therefore cannot be validly licensed for Wikipedia use. What action is required to delete the image, which is currently available, quite inappropriately, on Wikipedia Commons? Monicasdude 05:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it could possibly be "fair use" in an article about that particular bootleg video. Regardless, I notice that User:JDG is the uploader. Does that user claim to be the author of the video (which it clearly is from)? If not, it needs deleting both here and at Commons. We need reliable authorship / copyright-holder information for all of our infringing material. Jkelly 06:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The image was tagged GFDL by User:Mailer diablo, not by the uploader. Jkelly 06:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The screenshot was not even created by the uploader; it was pulled from a moderately well-known Dylan fansite which doens't require copyright clearance, and wasn't even original to that site. [2] [3] It showed up on Wikipedia shortly after the "picture gallery" went live; the underlying video had been circulating for several years before that, going from VHS to VCD to DVD. Monicasdude 14:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
This image very obviously falls under fair use. It was not "pulled from a moderately well-known Dylan fansite". It was sent to me by an acquaintance in 1998. Other uses he may have made of it don't concern me or Wikipedia. Whether it is a photo or a still from a video is also irrelevant. The law is quite clear about fair use of images of public figures (as Dylan assuredly is) and there is no problem with its inclusion here. Jkelly, I suggest you take your cue from the history of similar fair use images that exist by the hundreds in Wikipedia and have attracted zero litigation. JDG 23:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
User:JDG, thank you for responding. The issue, unfortunately, isn't entirely settled. The most important problem is that User:Mailer diablo has asserted rights to the image that they do not have by tagging it GFDL, which means that copyright-infringing material is now at Commons. I will tag it for deletion there. Further, please review Wikipedia:Fair use. Simply because Bob Dylan is a public figure and appears in the image does not automatically make it fair use in our article about Bob Dylan. Finally I cannot bring myself to agree that inaccuracy in labelling images (as a private photo vs. a bootleg video screen capture) is "irrelevant" -- it is quite important to creating fair use rationales. If our conversation has inspired you to help out in keeping Wikipedia free of copyright-infringing material, please feel free to check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Fair use. Thanks. Jkelly 23:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
If GFDL is inappropriate then our grounds-for-use should be changed to "fair use" and the image retained at Commons. This argument regarding images of public figures has been had many times over and the consensus has been to retain the images. Your work to keep Wikipedia free of copyright-infringing material is laudable, but whose copyright is being infringed by this image? Answer: nobody's. JDG 00:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Fair use images are not kept at the Commons, so the copy there will have to be deleted. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 00:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
User:JDG is repeatedly restoring this image to the Dylan article without even correcting the source information or providing a legitimate "fair use" justification. His claims as to the image source are demonstrably false. This is an image file created for dvdylan.com (a site organized for the unauthorized distribution of video concert recordings) and was originally created no earlier than June 2003 [4]. Precisely why the uploader is insistent on misrepresenting the source of the image is unclear, but it should be clear that the decorative use of an image like this violates Wikimedia Foundation policy regarding fair use. Monicasdude 15:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

70.81.117.175: dealing with repeated sneaky vandalism[edit]

70.81.117.175 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) This anon has commited repeated sneaky vandalism over a long period, entering distorted or completely false figures—details or on the vandal's talk page. Has been repeatedly warned and blocked, and is currently blocked for 48 hours. I have spent hours cleaning up this anon's damage on several occasions, and believe that it requires a long-term block or ban.

I don't know what is appropriate or allowed, and a second opinion is probably a good idea before taking more drastic action against him. Advice, please? Michael Z. 2006-01-4 19:22 Z

Thanks for dealing with this, Hall Monitor. Michael Z. 2006-01-4 20:34 Z

User:204.218.244.11[edit]

User 204.218.244.11 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) has a long history of vandalism, and the account has been blocked several times, the most recent on January 3 for three months. Unfortunately, it's a shared account used by several people at a DOD school. The Help Desk mailing list has received an email from one of the teachers at the school complaining that his User id, User:jefftaylor@xwb.com, has been blocked because of the IP block. Should we unblock this IP address? User:Zoe|(talk) 18:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Also, allow me to keep watch over his contribs so I can revert them on sight. Which would be made an easier task if Wikipedia:Requests for rollback privileges were still active. Still, I think if I and perhaps another user had a link to the contribs located in a easy place (maybe the userpage), reverting vandalism and quelling it would be much more managable. -MegamanZero|Talk 19:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Now that a teacher is involved, maybe Help Desk can ask him to get people (their IT folks?) to start clamping down on people who use those school computers to vandalise. Barring that, I guess this IP should be treated like any other shared IP (ie, only blocked for short periods of time). --Deathphoenix 19:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. But I still want to take responsilbility and watch over reverting vandalism. Can we get Wikipedia:Requests for rollback privileges active again..? I'm quite serious in this endevour, and would like some assistance; rollback would be very favorable.-MegamanZero|Talk 19:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Update- I attend this school, and e-mail between teachers is imparitive. User:Hall Monitor neede to lift this block now, before it impedes the learning and communication process. Also I saw nearly 30 different cases of vandalism on my watchpage at school and was unable to revert them due to the block. Needless to say, they remained there until I arrived home and took action. Need I remind anyone of this issue..? -MegamanZero|Talk 20:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
The John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy is irrelevant here, especially in light of the block sanctions. Over the past 12 months, an extreme amount of disruptive vandalism has originated from your school's network, resulting in an appropriate block from editing. The learning process has not been impeded in any way; anyone who attempts to access Wikipedia from your school will be able to read content normally, but not make page changes. Make note that this institution has been blocked over 10 times in the past [5] and received a long series of warnings beforehand. If necessary, please escalate this issue to your school or district's system administrator. In the meantime, it would be appreciated if you would reserve your edits until after school. Best regards, Hall Monitor 21:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree. I am well aware of those constant blocks. Which is preciseley why I ask you let me take responsilbility and keep up on the IP's contributions. Note that the last 10 times had no one keeping an eye on the contributions enough to revert. I will take this seriously, and I request you give me a chance to do so. And regarding learning process, I was not referring to wikipedia, I was, in fact talking about how blocking the network prevents e-mail between teachers, and possibly even more problems. -MegamanZero|Talk 21:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
May I ask, what does a Wikipedia block have to do with the ability of teachers to exchange email? -Will Beback 21:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not know... however, if a teacher has to bring it to our attention, then there must be some problem, and the point is just that this IP needs to be unblocked so I can attempt submmission on the matter. However, a 3 month block on any place of learning or schoalarly anaylisis is a bad idea. I mean, 3 months..? -MegamanZero|Talk 21:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
You'll notice it was blocked for 6 months without a complaint.
# 17:16, October 18, 2005 Tony Sidaway unblocked User:204.218.244.11 (Requested in email)
# 11:30, April 5, 2005 Tony Sidaway blocked "User:204.218.244.11" with an expiry time of indefinite (Has been vandalizing for months on end with multiple warnings)
Given the amount of similar vandalism we see from IPs like this, I have a certain sympathy for HM's position. Wikibofh(talk) 21:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
A detailed account of the activity originating from this IP address has been forwarded to Jeff Taylor so that he may bring this to the attention of the staff responsible for your school's network. I am awaiting his response. Hall Monitor 21:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I have unblocked. But if there is not effective hadling of vandalism from this IP expect future blocks. DES (talk) 22:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I have also put a link on my talk page from which i can easily chek the contribs of this IP(see User talk:DESiegel#special watches). I advise other interested editors to take similar measures. DES (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I will take this to the upmost seriousness, and I won't let blatent insolense and disregard for hard work sulley wikipedia's good name. Thank any and all who assist me in this endevour as well. Now, if we could get Wikipedia:Requests for rollback privileges back into effect, reverting this vandalism will truly be a force to be reckoned with. -MegamanZero|Talk 22:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Rollback only saves 1 or 2 clicks, and isn't available on every relevant screen anyway -- i often don't use it even though i have it. If you want the functional equivalent, see user scripts look for "godmode lite" I think. DES (talk) 22:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm ok with this unblock but I just checked the contribs and the first (and only) edit since the unblocking was blatant vandalism, if this continues then this IP will probably have to be reblocked. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 22:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Just recently...? That's...strange... because school is closed right now. So no one can use the Comps... -MegamanZero|Talk 23:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
22:49, January 5, 2006 (hist) (diff) Probability distribution JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 23:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
If that's the case, then students are not the only vandalists at work here- school is closed, and no clubs or socities meet at 1:41 AM. I'm going to look in to this tommorow. -MegamanZero|Talk 23:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Perhaps we should block the IP address during non business hours instead. ;-) Hall Monitor 23:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Note that frequently more than one school uses the same IP. The school where i work is quite often blocked for vandalism and I know it's not us. School blocks should be treated similar to AOL. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I am aware that the middle school/elementary school shares the same IP, however they also share the same operating hours as well. Plus, I find it highly doubtful that middle schoolers and below would be so persistant (also take into account they are almost never allowed on the internet anyway). Perhaps some malicious user(s) is using the school IP to vandalize from his living room. I know its possible to use another location's IP from a different comp.... Oh boy... this is becoming even bigger than I imagined. Regardless, I will work on suppressing this maliciousness tommorow. -MegamanZero|Talk 23:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The IP belongs to eu.dodea.edu if you look at thier website http://www.eu.dodea.edu/all.htm you will see that there are a lot of schools. It's prefectly possible that a huge number of these schools use the same IP. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Damn it....This is being very difficult. I do not see a way out of it... Curse DODDS schools and their cheap budget! Why not get their own networks...? Geez. I'll figure something out. -MegamanZero|Talk 23:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • LOL the user was first blocked for a duration of $2 Is this what things have come to? admins askng for 2 dollar bribes? lol--64.12.116.5 23:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
It will take more than $2 to bribe most admins and some of them (myself included) are honest enough not to accept bribes at any level... at least below the million dollar mark :) JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 23:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Think about it. Everything an admin can do, can be undone by another admin. I'll do the unblock, you do the reblock, we split the profits. No harm done and we get rich from the vandals. Wikipedia can even take a cut. Everyone is happy. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
DISCLAIMER: WE ARE NOT SERIOUS, ADMINISTRATORS NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL TAKE BRIBES. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 23:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Show me the policy page that says we don't. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC) Note: still kidding.
Are you sure? I know one administrator who has a "tip jar" linked to Paypal on their user page. Dragons flight 00:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC) No, I don't really think it is for bribes.
  • Damn. And things were going great for awhile too. I missed some vandalism, despite I was looking at the contributions constantly. Its utterly amazing- 5 or so cases of vandalism all in the course of 3 minutes. We need to find a time frame of when and when not to block, because its clear that my school is not this persistant. Someone must really have nothing better to do... I can't understand someone wanting to be this malicious agaist wikipedia. -MegamanZero|Talk 12:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Undeletion request/deletion review[edit]

i was just made aware that the page for the band "The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza" was deleted from wikipedia. i read over the reasons, and only of them seemed to acknowledge that they are in fact a real band. i have th one of thier albums, and although it's pretty extreme metal, it's entertaining and pretty good. they are a completely valid band who gigs and everything, not to mention having a snappy name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Tony_Danza_Tapdance_Extravaganza

please consider placing this page back into deletion review.

Chris fatecreatr@gmail.com

The proper place for requests like this is Wikipedia:Deletion review, but you're unlikely to get the consensus overturned unless you can prove that the band meets the guidelines at WP:MUSIC. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Controversial block[edit]

I've just blocked Netoholic (talkcontribs) for 24 hours. I'm posting here to let other admins know about it. The blocking policy does allow for blocks of disruptive users, but deems them controversial. Hence, the post here. Netoholic has a history of taking policies and using them beat other people around the head with them. The latest policy is WP:AUM. Whereas Netoholic has been useful in drawing attention to the policy and working on ways to reduce templates' excessive server load, it has been done in an abrupt and rude manner. After frequent calls to discuss changes first, Netoholic today began switching from the agreed template:language to his own template:Infobox Language. The former uses 'meta-templates' that cause server load problems. However, the latter has been rejected as an imperfect solution that has received no backing. I am involved in the dispute, but still feel this is good judgment. Any thoughts? --Gareth Hughes 20:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This post sums up my view. Garzo has been stonewalling attempts to move Template:Language (ugly meta-template mess, look at the source) into compliance with WP:AUM. My best alternative plan, without unduly disrupting articles, was to create Template:Infobox Language and start migrating articles slowly onto it. My intent at all phases was to only move articles that the template could support without loss of information. It's a good plan. Garzo, though, for days, has stonewalled me on the subject. He's been reverting me left and right, for no reason that can reasonably counter WP:AUM. I really think he feels too much ownership over the previous template. I've openly invited him to help with the effort, since admittedly, I am no linguist. This block was entirely inappropriate. -- Netoholic @ 21:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"War on blogs"[edit]

Another group of AfD nominations have been made in the GNAA "War on blogs". See User:Timecop/The war on blogs. It's getting old. Several GNAA members are attempting to delete as many blog articles as possible. It's true that some of these articles don't belong here, but many of the nominations are of good articles about well-known subjects. It's clear that a group of 7-8 editors are coordinating their efforts off-site so that they all vote for deletion quickly after an article is nominated, and they care little about whether the subject is actually notable. Rhobite 01:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Also see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MOJO Works, where they got the article speedied after it was vandalized by another GNAA member. (That it was later deleted properly at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MOJO Works 2 is immaterial.) —Cryptic (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
That's more a commentary on the admin who speedied it than on the participants in the AfD. If "trolls" want to improve wikipedia by finding and nominating for deletion non-encyclopedic material, more power to them. We can certainly encourge them to make better nominations, or to space them out more, but ad hominum remarks are pointless. If the material isn't up to scratch then it should be deleted. Bad nominations are best countered with calm, rational explanations of why the article is about something notable, with appropiate references WP:CITEd. Noting very new acccounts is fine, and putting the "sockpuppet beware" template on the AfDs is a good idea, but dismissing contributions based upon the contributor is a poor precedent. - brenneman(t)(c) 04:26, 6 January 2006
We definitely shouldn't start munching on newbies, but I still don't think it's a good thing when people vote quickly and uniformly, almost without thinking about it. [6] [7] [8] [9]. I'm sure they're good people, it'd just be nice if they put a little more thought into their votes, and at least give the appearance that they came to the AfD with an open mind. --Interiot 04:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism @ Biff Rose[edit]

there seems to be a continued deletion of a photo of the subject over at biff rose, the licensing is accorded, it is actually the man, with some of his art work. please check it out.Jonah Ayers 03:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

blocked?[edit]

from ISP: 207.200.116.13.

I think because I tried to edit something without being a registered user,

I have now registered as McScooti, could the block be removed?

Quite obviously you're not blocked. If you were, you could edit only your own talk page, but certainly not here. Lupo 09:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, your IP was never blocked, whether past or present. Elle vécut heureusement toujours dorénavant (Be eudaimonic!) 09:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Could have been an autoblock (which wouldn't show up in the blocklog for the IP) of a dynamic IP and the user was assigned a new IP. -- Essjay · Talk 09:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Lupo, the situation is more complex than that, not to say nightmarish. It does happen that (especially AOL) users get blocked in a way that they can edit other pages besides their own talkpage one minute, but not the next. Please refer to the block collection page of the unfortunate and virtuous User:WBardwin, especially the input from JRM. There obviously is a problem with the range McScooti mentions, since WBardwin was just hit by Marudubshinki's block of 207.200.116.132, see User talk:WBardwin. McScooti, I apologize, from us all, please keep contributing. Bishonen | talk 10:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

User RJ-45 has been blocked by a bot (page moves)[edit]

User:RJ-45 has been blocked by a bot intended to block pagemove vandalism.

Please check the move log for this user and unblock if this was an error.

Please delete this message after the situation has been resolved.

This message was generated by the bot. -- Curps 10:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Was indeed a WOW, cleaned up and tagged. Thank you Curps. -- Essjay · Talk 10:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
AOL user. Kelly Martin (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I've lifted the autoblock on that basis, but obviously left the account-block in place. -Splashtalk 14:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Serial vandal with Bogdanov pattern[edit]

A vandal has been overwriting a series of users pages with an article about the Bogdanov affair. It is using multiple user IDs: Sojo 123 (talk), Golbow (talk), Malmar (talk), Joanne Harman (talk), Hu 12:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Another pair of proxies[edit]

Kelly Martin (talk) 14:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Just another reminder to all: any editor found inserting backslashes before quotations (single or double) is to be blocked indefinitely and reported directly to me for CheckUser analysis. Edits of this nature are almost aways the result of using either badly-written bots or badly-written open proxies. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block of God of War[edit]

User:God of War was indefinitely blocked by User:Neutrality, who gave "trolling" as the reason. Certainly, some edits of God of War warrant a block, for example [10], but I question whether the block should be indefinite, and I don't see a pattern of warning edits on GoW's talk page leading up to the block. I have raised this on User talk:Neutrality but have not yet received a response.-gadfium 05:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I see that Neutrality has unblocked him. Never mind.-gadfium 05:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • In my opinion, this comes close to warranting a {{usernameblock}}. Radiant_>|< 20:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

www.questia.com[edit]

Rjensen (talkcontribs) has added lots of links to this external commercial site on a few pages. I'm normally an external links nazi, but am not familiar enough with this service to make an educated judgement. I've put a note on his talk page saying that I'm a bit uncomfortable with it and referring him here. - brenneman(t)(c) 07:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Questia.com is a legitimate publisher of out-of-print books. It is a commercial outfit with low prices ($20 for 30-days access to all its books online). Wiki recommends listing publishers and so Questia seems to fit in the guidelines. (Questia's name does not appear on the Wiki pages, only a hot link like this: Freeman, Washington. I have no connection whatever with Questia, except I paid $99 for a one-year membership. But the reason I link it is not to sell a product but because it offers two very useful services, free to everyone. which fit very well I think with the Wiki goal of maximizing access to information through the www. You can read the first page of every chapter of every book in Questia (and cut and paste), and you can do a full text search through its huge database. It carries mostly old and out of print books, that have been selected by librarians to be of value to researchers, and historians like myself. Reading every first page will help people decide if they want to buy the book through Amazon or Questia, or order it through their library, or track it doen in the stacks of a major university library. When you have a bibliography of maybe 30 titles and have to narrow it down to a couple, Questia is a godsend. The online feature means you will not wait a week for inter-library loan. I am told that some libraries will pay the Questia fee (which is a bargain, considering that libraries say an interlibrary loan costs them $20+ to process.) Rjensen 09:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe I'm hearing myself speaking in favor of any commercial link, but Questia is indeed a good deal and a good outfit. Their niche is to sell subscriptions only to private individuals, at very affordable prices; they're not available to libraries. This is a Good Thing. It counteracts the tendency for texts to become more and more easily available to academics, and less and less to everybody else. Such a tendency has arisen because so many big, yummy databases are now on the web—stuff like the huge Early English Books database (yum, yum), the OED, the latest Encyclopedia Britannica, the Chadwyck-Healey complete English pre-copyright poetry and drama text collections—drool— but are in practice only accessible to University employees. Their subscription prices are so outrageous that only Uni libraries (and far from all Uni libraries) can afford them. Questia is not exhaustive like these library-aimed services, but it's big all right, it's very useful and cheap, and as far from a scam as you can get. One thing that impressed me specially when I was trying to decide whether to get a Questia subscription for a friend was that my own University library —a big, stuck-up outfit (through which I enjoy access to many goodies) which is extremely puritanical about commercial links—actually recommends Questia to staff and students. That was an unusual sight to see. Bishonen | talk 10:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
they're not available to libraries. This is a Good Thing. It counteracts the tendency for texts to become more and more easily available to academics, and less and less to everybody else. There is such a thing as non-academic libraries. - Mgm|(talk) 13:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
True, but non-academic libraries won't carry even the big juicy services -- don't want them -- and Questia would be of no more interest to them than Ebsco, e.g. Only in very large cities, at very central branches, do public libraries, at least in the US, feel that their patrons want dry, scholarly services. (NY pub lib is fantastic, as we know, but the Reidsville public library wouldn't want Questia.) I think, though, that Questia is able to purchase copyrights because they can assure publishers that the works are being accessed by single users, a la being checked out of a library. Geogre 14:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
On a cursory check, it looks like the benign sort of link. It provides some evidence that a hard-to-find book actually exists, lets you confirm publisher information, and probably lets you read the first few pages which could be useful to get a feel for its usefulness as a source. All that for free, and a potentially useful source of additional facts for people who can subscribe. My only question is whether similar free services are available: is there any overlap with Google Books, for instance? The Land 10:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I use Questia, myself. If the links are, in fact, to books/articles on Questia, it seems like licit behavior. If the links are to "subscribe to Questia," probably not, unless the article containing the link is on things like "books on the web" or "web publishers." In general, Questia is a kick *ss site that does a great service for us all. One reason that folks in universities might not hear of them, though, is that Questia is not available for institutional licenses. It's aimed solely at individual scholars (and I mean scholars). Great stuff. Geogre 14:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Geogre. I would also like to add that a citation to a source is useless unless people can actually locate the source. I happen to work three blocks from one of the largest municipal libraries in the U.S. and I live near a sizable private university, but I still use electronic access (through my local public library) to another company's online offering (ProQuest) for materials for certain types of research. A citation that tells me that an electronic publisher has the material available in a real time saver. -- DS1953 talk 23:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad I asked. Still don't like the look of ten links to the same site on a page, but the unholy combination of Geogre and Bishonen is enough to convince me. Can someone else spread the news to Rjensen? I'm not sure how he'd take it from me. [11] - brenneman(t)(c) 14:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Solution[edit]

I didn’t want to do this, since I figured it’d set a bad precedent for future instances, that people would feel a need for it to be required, but I’ve come to believe the exact opposite after a bit of thinking about it, hopefully you people will realize that nobody on this board knows anything about copyright law, including myself, and that anyone who tries to claim themselves knowing anything more than the very basic levels is basically just trying to go through with how policies and guidelines are actually made, or at least partially made(since nobody ever follows them) around here – grab a group of people that agree with you and intimidate your opponents into submission.

My next door neighbor’s best friend from High School is Mike Tamburro, the General Manager of the Pawtucket Red Sox, the top farm team of the Boston Red Sox, which means that he has alot of interaction with their head offices. I’ll ask my neighbor to ask Mike about the Boston Red Sox logo in regards to userboxes.

I also know a man in my town named Gaetan DiGiangi, he’s a member of the Democratic National Committee, and being as such, knows just about everybody who would have any claim to proprietorship over the icon in Template:User US democrat.

I can almost guarantee you knowing both of them that instead of these groups having a hissy fit like some editors on here and screaming bloody murder to cut off their nose to spite their own face, in all likelihood they will probably be overjoyed that they have so many supporters here on Wikipedia and will ask that the userboxes have official links to their respective websites or something in an attempt to grab some grassroots viral marketing.

And, since pretty much everybody’s ignored BD2412 (talk · contribs)’s assessment of things on Template talk: User US democrat in regards to images such as these, I have another lawyer friend here in town, I’ll try and contact her and get a statement from her, although I have a feeling that’ll be little good since those of you who have disagreed on this have done so to the point where you’re unlikely to listen to any reasoning of any sort.

No, this is sheerly about Wikipolitics now. This is about if 100 users say 2+2=5 and 1 or 2 users say 2+2=4, if those 100 can intimidate those 1 or 2 with blocks or harassments or deletions or edit wars or attempted deletions of user pages against those who disagree with them.

I’ll be back fully in a few days with what they’ve said and if needed contact information to verify my claims. Hopefully by then Wikipedia will have regained its sanity.

Oh, by the way, did anyone enjoy the irony of Template:User support Kelly Martin? I wonder if she or one of her cronies will try to summarily delete it like they did with userboxes that they don’t like. I sincerely doubt it. karmafist 15:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Umm.. you do know that was deliberately ironic don't you? -- sannse (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Karmafist, I'll wager you'll be surprised at the responses you get from the Red Sox guy and the DNC guy. Marketing departments like viral marketing and such. Corporate lawyers hate it. Hopefully, I'm wrong, though.
I got some great advice from BD2412 awhile ago; he obviously knows his stuff regarding fair use. It's rather annoying that the actual lawyers are being ignored, but that's to be expected. This is Wikipedia, where everybody is an expert in everything.
No doubt the Foundation has its own legal representation. Perhaps we could appeal to Jimbo to get them to weigh in on this matter? If Jimbo is $DEITY, then certainly $DEITY's lawyers' word is law.
Then we could all get back to, oh I dunno, writing an encyclopedia instead of worrying about silly boxes. android79 15:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


Would BD2412's comments be the ones where he says that fair use may allow use of logos like the Democratic National Party logo, because that logo has been designed to allow people to use it for self-identification? Ξxtreme Unction|yakkity yak 17:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Legal Guidance vs. Consensus[edit]

I suggest that someone delegated for this task by User:Jimbo Wales posts links to external sites that give some copyright FAQ where certified lawyers certify some Q+A that is directly relevant to Fair Use questions on Wiki.

Many years ago, I participated in the organization of games conventions. Similarly to Wiki, there were tons of volunteers, all ages, all opinions, struggling to achieve consensus, where some topics should be excempt from that process. I volunteered to run some play money game tournaments, and tournaments using duplicate scoring, where the players could bid on positions in games like Diplomacy, and the winnings be from the bidding pot proportionally based on how well they did. Several other volunteers claimed my plans were illegal gambling. I took my plans to 2 lawyers on the convention committee, and to the Chief Prosecutor for the City of the convention. All said my plans were perfectly within the law. However, I got nothing but grief from people, where their opinion was more important than that of lawyers. User:AlMac|(talk) 01:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Roger Dangerfields[edit]

Created a patent nonsense article (Glyn's Mum) and nominated it for Featured Article [12] I speedy deleted the article [13] twice and R3m0t also deleted it once after me, then blanked and protected the article page. Now User:Roger Dangerfields Contrib has it posted on his/her userpage. The latest is a sudden change in the infobox image for the Ariel Sharon article. [14]. Suggestions?--MONGO 20:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Now he has given me a slice of pie too...[15]--MONGO 20:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC) And awarded a "barnstar" easy chair to Jimbo [16]--MONGO 20:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The User page has been deleted, it doesn't matter where they are, attacks are speedyable. If he commits one more act of vandalism, I'm all ready to block him. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Saw that..thank you!--MONGO 21:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I haven't vandalised since being warned.
  • The Ariel Sharon change was completely justified. The other picture had no source information and was too small to fit in the box (So it looked stretched and distorted on the page). I simply restored an earlier version as a result.
  • Everyone gives non-rudimentary awards all the time, what I've awarded is nothing new....I was expecting it to be taken light-heartedly so we could put my acts of vandalism behind me, but instead it has been shoved back in my face. I've reacted angrily and so unsurprisingly I'm the one been branded a troll:


I am actually new to this username wise.....I'm just about getting the hang of things, but I continually am pestered instead of helped. I hope you understand that this is why I responded with anger. I hadn't created an article before (You can't by IP) so I wanted to try it. There is no such person called "Glyn" it's just something childish that came into my head. I hadn't finished testing and I didn't see a problem in you waiting for me to finish......I could have marked {{db}} on the article myself. I'm not that stupid. Roger Dangerfields 00:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

If you need to create test pages, please do so in your user space. For example: User:Roger Dangerfields/test page. It's not considered appropriate to test in article space. But it's understandable that you didn't know that. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 18:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
  • IN addition to the above, he has uploaded the image above and provided no source and it is currently tagged as a possible copyvio and will be deleted [17]. Roger Dangerfield apears to have today turned to wikistalking me as he voted for my nominee for adminship here then this "newbie" ventures into Afd voting here and over to Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive here. The next wonderful edit is over at the Wikipedia:Sandbox here where he makes an entry stating "Roger was hungry. He went to the fridge and to eat some pie. He found a talking one, of which told him to kill his next door neighbour. Summonly he stabbed her in the face with a bayonet and enjoyed a post humours anal rape with her. The End." Two minutes later he's at Wikipedia:Tutorial (Editing)/sandbox where he fills it with 50 images of, well, take a look, then over to Wikipedia:Tutorial (Formatting)/sandbox where he inserted about 50 or 100 images of a ferret [18], next on to User:Sandbot [19] which, like the last two edits he did is reverted, he is then warned by User:Curps [20] and responds with a racial epithat [21]. I am requesting his vote for my nominee for adminship be removed, and I am indefinitely banning him for trolling and personal attacks. The account exists solely for disruption.--MONGO 20:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Fidel Castro and consensus poll[edit]

I have unilaterally declared that there is a poll for determining consensus for whether or not Fidel is a dictator and whether or not Cuba is communist state. It is located at Talk:Fidel Castro. i expect that there could be some outcry over this. Notifying the admin community so that they may validate/chastise. Wikibofh(talk) 01:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I think Wikibofh was suggesting a remark be placed here if we felt his handling of this was a mistake. Well at least a couple of us do. One from each side of the arguments, so we can claim a balanced view!

A consensus can't be produced by a vote, a consensus is won by exhaustion, there aren't any short cuts. The 'dictator' issue has been resolved, a stable version has held for a day and a half. All the vote will do is stir up calmed waters. The second question is: what is the correct description of Cuba government to put in the info box? This can't be resolved by a head count of opinions. The question behind it is: what is the standard criteria for defining 'Government' in a country info box. The battle on the Cuba pages will go on, vote or no, until legitimate sources of the information are defined.MichaelW 02:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Eve Plumb[edit]

The idiot who keeps adding Eve Plumb's address and phone number has now gone on to vandalize the Maureen McCormick and Susan Olsen pages with the same info. All three are now sprotected, but I'm sure he'll move on to other Brady Bunch articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I sprocected Eve's article and did the whole cleanup stuff. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 03:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
FYI, the same was done in the following: Barry Williams | Christopher Knight | Mike Lookinland | Florence Henderson | Geri Reischl | Robert Reed | Ann B. Davis. --Wknight94 (talk) 11:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
And these same people all were on Brady Bunch? If so...hmmm...what else can we do. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 21:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Willconnolly[edit]

I think blocking might by necessary for this user as this name (IMO) is trying to impersonate User:William M. Connolley, a well-known climate modeller.

His/her has eight contributions. (2 on sandbox, 2 on BJAODN discusion, one vandal (which I reverted), one legit edit and 2 on user page) SYSS Mouse 04:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Connolly and Connolley are rather common surnames, aren't they? This very well could be this editor's real name. android79 04:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a nicely written note explaining the confusion and requesting the user to make a name change is inn order? -- Essjay · Talk 04:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a *new* editor would likely decide and figure out how to add userboxes on their 5th edit. I think this editor has prior experience. —--Aude (talk | contribs) 05:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
So what? You are allowed to use your real name. Many people read and study before they edit. Secretlondon 20:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

node_ue (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)[edit]

Vandal node_ue (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) had deleted imporatant parts of other user's personal pages [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATheresa_knott&diff=34048985&oldid=34041970 ]]. Bad behaviour. Very disturbant character. Watch this guy please. His only contributions to Wikipedia is to make controversial edits on Romania, Moldova related articles. Until now he did this to the following articles Moldova, Moldovan language, Transnistria, Anti-Romanian, Moldovans, Demographics of Ukraine and so on. Bad behaviour. Bonaparte talk 07:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATheresa_knott&diff=34048985&oldid=34041970

Wow, it takes balls to say that node_ue only contributes by making controversial edits to Romania/Moldova related articles. Especially considering that node_ue has been editing here since 2001, and you joined us exactly two months ago. Especially considering that node_ue has edited an incredible variety of articles, and your very first edits were to make a beeline for Romania and Moldovan-related articles, followed by a flurry of talk page edits and then "file a vandalism report on user User:Node ue". silsor 07:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of Node's statistics, he vandalized that user's talk page by removing their own comments. He did this two times. He was asked by user:Cyberevil why he vandalized her page, but Node gave him no reply. He did, however, made other edits, which means that he read the comment, but chose not to reply. --Anittas 08:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to remind you all that I received a barnstar "The Red Crystal" which is representative of politically and religiously neutral humanitarian aid, so I think that silsor's suggestion that only by the fact that node was editing since 2001 is just irrelevant. He may have edit since 2001, but I ask you with what kind of contributions? Just trolling. So, it doesn't matter the since you edit but the quality of edits. I would like that silsor to withdraw his statements. Thank you. Bonaparte talk 08:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow a BARNSTAR, never seen one of those before! </sarcasm> seriously, if Teresa knott has a problem with Node_ue editing her page she can sort that out herself. Bonaparte, seriously dude, if you know whats good for you, you'll stay out of this argument, all its going to do is make you look bad to many long term contributors.  ALKIVARRadioactivity symbol.png 10:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Which of my statements would you like me to withdraw? silsor 17:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Node is a passionate supporter of the rights of speakers of minority languages. The Romania/Moldova issue is extremely political - poorer Moldova's lesser internet access mustn't blind us to this fact. People have been screaming vandalism over political disputes since the beginning of the project. Secretlondon 17:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Bonaparte, you know that isn't true, Node edits many other minority language articles, such as Montenegrin language. - FrancisTyers 17:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah Francis...I almost forget about his hidden project of creating "invented langauges" even where is not the case like Zlatiborian language, or the above link. Like I said except the fact that he makes a lot of noise and blatant trolling he does also vandalism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATheresa_knott&diff=34048985&oldid=34041970. Bonaparte talk 18:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we should all assume good faith. Node ue may have made a mistake, it's a very easy thing to do. As he didn't leave an edit summary (we can assume that he does know about them given his time here and the fact that he has used them before) and didn't repeat the edit once reverted, gives us no good reason not to AGF. Bonaparte is in a content dispute with Node ue and when things get heated, we see vandals and trolls everywhere. Bonaparte, please don't refer to other users as vandals and please don't use the {{vandal}} template. It is inconsistent with WP:AGF (unless there is evidence of clear vandalism - a content dispute doesn't count). User the "user" template: Node ue (talk · contribs). Izehar 19:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The Punisher and ip 72.245.34.187[edit]

User:72.245.34.187 added a good deal of information to the Punisher article a while back, however, some of the english seemed broken, and there was some POV content. I did my best to clean up, keeping as much of the relevant information as I could. Since then, he's been adding the information again (making much of it repetitive) and refuses any attempt at discussion on the talk page, resorting to wild claims about Wikipedia as a whole, backing them up with commentary from imaginary editors (it's the same ip), and even, on one occasion, an incident of vandalism [22]. History of the article indicates that the other editors seem to agree with my version, with many of them reverting his edits themselves. I don't think mediation is possible in this case, as I've tried numerous times to have a civil discussion with him on the talk page. If it were up to me, I think an indefinite block would be an acceptable solution in this case.

Note: I have tried to follow 3RR. Though I reverted the page 4 times between 6:28 Jan 4th and the same time Jan 5th, two of those reverts were blatant vandalism, one of which wasn't even by the above ip. I hope that's acceptable. -- Hinotori(talk)|(ctrb) 17:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


Page deleted in error- help!...Saugeen Stripper[edit]

Hey all, the page Saugeen Stripper was up for AfD, but after a lot of discussion, the admin there decided it was no consensus and should remain. But now it is GONE! I cannot figure out how to get the page back. Can someone help? Tokyojoe2002 18:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to get into a wheel war but I undeleted it, because I took exception to Adam Bishop's reason of "repairing a mistake of AfD". If he thinks it was a mistake, maybe he can bring it up again, or find a CSD factor for it. --Golbez 18:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
The page is now listed on WP:DRV, let the process there consider if AfD made a "mistake". DES (talk) 18:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, the exact phrase he used was "undoing failure of AFD". --Golbez 18:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Looks like someone restored the article already, but then Adam did this, which does not help his case. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 19:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Now Adam Bishop just tried to run and end around again. He obviously does not care about proper processes. This is ridiculous. Here is his latest: [23] Tokyojoe2002 21:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Gibraltarian evading indefinite block[edit]

212.120.225.115 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is clearly Gibraltarian. Not sure how much can be done, since per above discussions, to effectively block him is to block all of Gibraltar... (ESkog)(Talk) 18:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

This IP has already been blocked by Splash. Izehar 18:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

User:64.231.112.130 and User:Hollow Wilerding[edit]

Could somebody please check if 64.231.112.130 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is an IP address shared by the indefinitely blocked Hollow_Wilerding (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)? I have a suspician that it is, as the IP archived an ongoing discussion at Talk:Cool (song) where a user raised concerns over the reliability of the article's references [24], as Hollow Wilerding had attempted to do previously for equally dubious reasons ("I don't find it acceptable that Wikipedians were complaining about the quantity of the article"' [25], and also [26]). Also, compare [27] to [28], in which both HW and the IP chose to dismiss Wikipedia's manual of style for their own. On a related note, 64.231.75.102 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) definitely is an IP used by HW, see [29] and [30]. Extraordinary Machine 18:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Common sense (same IP range + the edits in question) makes it a 99.9999% certainty that that was HW; she's probably moved onto a new IP by now, so a (neccessarily short, it's an ISP range) block won't do any good. I'd go ahead and un"archive" that discussion. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Another: 64.231.72.45 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log). With every new account/IP, I see HW still likes to try and trick users into thinking that he is new to Wikipedia. [31] Extraordinary Machine 23:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, just roll back her edits[edit]

It's an unnecessary detour to apply to CheckUser for the typical Hollow Wilerding editing that we're seeing from IP's in the 64.231... range. It would be absurd to not assume it's HW. At first, I blocked the ones I came across, but I've gotten bored; it's much simpler for her to IP hop than for me to block, write a block reason, place a sock template on the userpage, etc, etc. By the time I'm done, she's gone, and some innocent user may be getting hit by the block intended for her. Feel free to go on blocking these IP's on sight if you wish (please keep blocks to 8 hours or less, to minimize the risk of collateral damage), but I'm not sure it's meaningful. What I recommend instead is that everybody just roll back her edits on sight. No CheckUser, no block, no templates on the userpages, and also no bothering to check whether they're good or bad edits (once you've determined from the style and subject of a few of the contributions that it really is her). Remember this is a blocked user, evading an extremely well-deserved block for abusive sockpuppeteering and a storm of of deceit and disruption. Blocked users aren't allowed to edit. Just roll her back. Bishonen | talk 01:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC).

A reasonably targeted and short range block — say, a few hours for 64.231.0.0/16 — might be enough to discourage her from bothering, without inconveniencing too many other editors for too long. I know a range block is a blunt weapon, but it's not unreasonable to use it for short periods of time to gain some breathing room. Nandesuka 06:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I did consult JRM earlier about the possibility of a short range block, but he was against it, on the ground that the range is so huge. Bishonen | talk 13:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Surrey10[edit]

I've blocked User:Surrey10 for three hours for large-scale, disruptive page moves which are against the naming conventions [32]. He was asked nicely not to do this back in November, and I warned him about it more recently, but to no effect. User:Proteus has been egging him on and seems to think I'm wrong about this, so I'd welcome review of this from other admins. Mark1 19:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

For a start, the moves are not against the Wikipedia naming policy. Secondly, I have never been asked nicely not to move pages (and the page I moved in November was a differant situation, and I admit I was wrong according the Wikipedia Policy). The suggestion that User:Proteus has 'egged' me on totally riduclous, I was unaware of his support on this matter until after I changed the pages in the first place! In addition, I think it is very insultive to him to suggest he would do such a thing. And I too would welcome a review of the policy, and if the Naming Policy stays as it is and I am right I would like an apology from Mark for blocking me. --Surrey10 23:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

He did it again, so I blocked him again for 24 hours. Surrey, if you want to have the naming conventions changed, please discuss it at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles). You should of course read the eight pages of archived discussion for the background. ;) Mark1 23:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a difficult one, this, because the naming conventions on life peers is somewhat fluid. The principle that the peerage title should be in the name except where the person is known without it is a difficult one to judge because life peers tend to have become notable before their elevation (that's why they got the peerage). Surrey10 seems to be of the opinion that most, if not all, life peers should have their peerages in the article title. If adopted as a general principle this would create some badly-named articles, and I don't believe that Mark1 overreacted because it is disruptive. Perhaps the response to this is to make the policy more explicit. David | Talk 00:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I shall not bother to ask another administrator to review it, its not worth it. I have decided that Wikipedia is totally flawed, as recently discussed in an article in "The Times" newspaper, and I do not intend to use it again. It allows people with no specialist knowledge to edit pages, and then in the case of Mark, Morwen and others give them special powers, when they do not deserve them and can not use them properly. The whole website needs to be changed if it is to gain widespread public backing.
Anyway, I will give Mark the joy of winning this battle, although I am adamant he is wrong, and that I will be proven right in the near future. Indeed the fact he never answers my points shows that he has little evidence to back him up. People like Mark and User:Morwen make more vandalise this website, and this will only increase until administrators with their huge egos are got rid of completly and replaced with paid professionals who would know what they are doing.
I would like this placed on the Administrators' Noticeboard, but because of Mark's childish behaviour in blocking me I can not put it on there myself, and would appreciate it if someone else did for me. For the last time, --Surrey10 10:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

User:LawAndOrder[edit]

Has done nothing orther than put themselves forward as an arbcom candidate. may nead to be cheacked out.Geni 19:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything malicious, although he may be a sockpuppet; he seems to know about wikipedia quite well for a new user. I'll watch his contribs, but I doubt to see anything other than a failed arbcom candidacy. -Greg Asche (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, there is a notice on top of every watchlist about the ArbCom stuff, so maybe he followed the links and went there. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 21:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Another death threat[edit]

This one has almost the same wording as the last one. -- Curps 21:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I suspect it could be a sockpuppet of Gallian who made libellous edits on the George W.Bush page. Best to block the vandal indefinitely. --Sunfazer 21:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Repeated violations of WP:AUM[edit]

In recent days, I've been working on a non-meta-template version of Template:Language. I've reached impasses on several fronts, and I need assistance from admins in enforcing this policy, with warnings and blocks if necessary.
About one month ago, I posted on Template talk:Language about the AUM policy and the need for the template to be changed to reflect it, but no changes were made. A few days ago, I created Template:Infobox Language so that I could re-design the template and begin converting articles away from Template:Language without trying to make a major change to the main template. Certain parameters and options, needed to change and the articles need to be touched to make slight changes to the template call. Once confident that it worked, I converted a few articles to it.
Garzo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), who has worked on the old template extensively, "discovered" this, and began reverting my conversion effort. I took a break on it for a couple days, and discussed on the old template's talk page. Unfortunately, rather than a discussion about the technical aspects of the change, it devolved into arguments about the WP:AUM policy itself. There is also some general confusion about how various methods of avoid meta-templates work.
Yesterday, I began back in earnest working to convert the articles. I made a goal to convert all language articles starting with "C" to the new template. During this, I made some adjustments to the template and to the articles, but, and let me stress, NO information was lost. The infobox at all times showed the same information as before my conversion. These edits have since been reverted multiple times. I was even blocked twice by Garzo for this - the blocks were rapidly undone.
I'd like to ask that admins please give warnings to the following users (and any others in the future), instructing them to not revert efforts related to this conversion. Garzo (talkcontribs), Tobias Conradi (talkcontribs), Khoikhoi (talkcontribs), and CBDunkerson (talkcontribs).
I remain open to any and all feedback, problem reports, or direct criticism related to this, but it's unacceptable that users should ever stonewall against this policy. -- Netoholic @ 22:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Netoholic is doing some sterling work in cleaning up a lot of templates, and is dramatically better behaved than when he went before ArbCom. Right now, some users seem to be attempting to provoke him, which I find to be rather stupid and ignorant behaviour. In addition, edit warring over templates - meta-templates, of all things - is a waste of time, and amounts to disruptive behaviour in terms of the constant re-caching it causes. Rob Church Talk 22:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I don't agree with the accuracy of a good deal of the above, but I'll stick to just three points;
  1. I have made precisely ONE revert here - when Netoholic replaced the existing Template:Language with a copy of his Template:Infobox language which, since it has different parameters and calling syntax, caused numerous languages in the article space to start displaying incorrect information. I made this revert only after checking five languages and finding them all displaying improperly.
  2. My only other participation in this has been decreasing the usage of meta-templating by Template:Language. Contrary to what Netoholic says above I haven't seen anyone arguing that we shouldn't remove meta-templates. Just that we should discuss and work together on what we replace them with.
  3. Netoholic is doing a tremendous job converting meta-templates... but his successes and the recognition of his efforts have been greatly muted by the confrontational and often condescending way he goes about it. His work on Template:Taxobox was excellent, but not quite what the people on that project wanted. Rather than working out the kinks he yelled about 'stonewalling' and beat them over the head with WP:AUM until they decided they weren't going to use Template:Taxobox at all, but rather go back to the old style of calling a separate template for each row of the table. However, all it took was a few minor adjustments and they are now going to use Template:Taxobox after all... primarily Netoholic's work, but almost squandered over the same sort of intransigence and browbeating now going on with Template:Language.
There is no 'policy violation' going on here (except for an increasing civility issue). Everyone is working to reduce the usage of meta-templates. Netoholic just needs to work with people a little more. --CBD 22:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Re Rob's comments, if this and this is "dramatically better behaved" how bad was he before? The claim that people are provoking Netoholic is ridiculous. He is the one provoking users all over the place. Get your facts right, Rob. Netoholic's behaviour to users on template pages is rude, arrogant, bullying and obnoxious and frankly is a disgrace. He causes needless rows and then blames everyone else for them. FearÉIREANNMap of Ireland's capitals.png\(caint) 23:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Netoholic is certainly right that we have to avoid meta-templates and that {{Language}} is using meta-templates. But instead of going to Template talk:Language or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages (where the template is administered from) and saying "Hey y'all, we have a problem, let's work together to fix it", he just creates his own new template and starts replacing the old one with it. Gareth has worked very hard on {{Language}} over the last few months and was justifiably upset to see it so blithely replaced. (I don't agree with his blocking Netoholic over the issue, though.) --Angr (tɔk) 23:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if Garzo feels insulted, but he agreed to let other people edit his work mercilously when he joined up. I did post a "Hey y'all" message on the talk page and I have been asking to work together. Rather than get to work smoothing out any technical problems, all of the editors I've named have spent their days assuming I'm their to shatter their WikiProject. -- Netoholic @ 23:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Heh... you've 'named' me and I neither assume that nor am a member of that Wikiproject. Mostly I think they just want you to 'work together' before converting the articles rather than after. The new infobox looks very different from the old and doesn't have all the same features. Some of those differences are probably significant to the language wikiproject people and ways of synching things up should be explored. --CBD 23:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Netoholic - violations of AUM must stop; it's not a "ooh, wouldn't this be nice" request. It's essentially an order by the developers (and, by extension, the Foundation). OTOH, if we could all just get along that would be nice. :-)
James F. (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that's not really relevant to the dispute here. Everyone agrees on this point. Nobody is saying 'we are not going to stop using meta-templates'. They are saying, 'the new template doesn't work right'. I've been trying to reduce meta-template usage without disrupting the way the templates work. Since I only started looking at templates like this about a week ago I'm nowhere near as familiar with it as Netoholic is. I also haven't been able to devote as much time as he does. Still, slow and 'nobody screaming bloody murder' has its advantages. --CBD 00:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
But that just isn't the case. During this conversion, I have been very careful that no information is lost. The replacement template does work, and so nobody should be removing that. Like everything, if there are changes to be made, people can make them or even post on the talk page and let me implement them. -- Netoholic @ 00:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


While I agree that the template needs to be changed to come in line with AUM, I'm worried about the way Netoholic seems to be going about it. Posting one comment on the template's page saying "this needs to come in line with AUM," following this by accusing others of trying to "fake out" the software and "assaut[ing]" AUM [33], and then later counting this as an attempt to reach consensus on the changes is innapropriate. Yes, the template needs to be changed, but Netoholic also needed to put more effort into trying to work with those who worked on the old infobox template to make sure the changes went smoothly (his claims that no information was lost are wrong--the color codes for the languages don't show up in the new template; he says the new template is still being improved, and is in use, but he nonetheless implemented it in many articles). I admire his desire to bring the template in line with Wikipedia policy, but he seems to be doing it in an unnecessarily confrontational way (he also tried using deceptive edit summaries to change some articles over to the new template, which I feel is completely unacceptable). Just my two cents on the conflict; please let me know if you disagree. Take care, --Whimemsz 00:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I converted the color codes to work in the new template without meta-templating. Netoholic rightly notes that it isn't prettiest solution, but it works. Anyway, let me know if it helps at all. --CBD 03:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

You miss the point. The issue isn't AUM. It is Netoholic's behaviour. If he worked with people, rather than bulldozing his way through pages, insulting people who question what he is doing, posting swear words on users' pages, issuing threats and throwing tantrums there would not be a problem. He has created the problem and he is the biggest problem with the AUM project. His approach to it has alienated the middle ground, offended genuine users, and sent a loud "fuck you" message to people who have worked on pages for months. Gareth is no vandal, just an understandably offended genuine user who has been shouted at, attacked and bullied by Netoholic. And as the pages Netoholic has been working on show, there are tons of very annoyed users out there, all thanks to his behaviour and his refusal to work with people, just shout obscenities at them and threaten them if they do not let him bulldoze their work out of the way to do what he wants. FearÉIREANNMap of Ireland's capitals.png\(caint) 00:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I work quite hard and fast... this meta-template problem is strikingly prevalent. I said I'm sorry if the editors ever are offended, but, on a per-template basis, I've gotten more praise from the affected editors than resistance. -- Netoholic @ 00:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Another point: It looks silly to me, to try to totally avoid meta-templates on enwiki, while this policy is not in use on any (all? some? at least not at de:) other projects. Even if it is technically necessary to radically cut down meta-templates, it doesn't make sense to me, to try eliminate the last, difficult to replace, uses on enwiki, while there are zillions of meta-templates on dewiki. --Pjacobi 15:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Microsoft Fanboy[edit]

Could we get a checkuser on this guy? He's been engaging in the same kind of behavior that Brazil4Linux (a prior user who has an indefinite block) was in, shares the same writing style and the same affinity for calling other people's edits "vandalism" when he disagrees with them.

Brazil4Linux uses a variable IP that almost always traces to Brazil (usually veloxzone or dialuol), so if this individual does too, then it's the guy. Daniel Davis 23:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC) (Doom127)

203.134.197.133[edit]

Really just looking for a 2nd opinion as the activity in question seems to have stopped: I'm not at all sure if there was any malicious intent, but 203.134.197.133 (talkcontribs) has made a string of strange edits within the space of 2 or 3 minutes. He or she left User:LinkBot suggestions at the talk pages of 20 articles. However most of the suggestions are red links. (And two pages on my watchlist that brought all this to my attention had long been merged with other articles.) But is this something to keep an eye on? Again, perhaps not malicious intent, but I can't figure out what he or she is trying to accomplish. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi[edit]

Khoikhoi (talkcontribspage movesblock userblock log) (previously Hottentot (talkcontribspage movesblock userblock log))

This user's contribs for at least the last few days show what I would estimate are probably 90% reversions, using either empty or aggressive edit summaries. I dunno what's so important, but it's certainly in need of stern attention. See above section #Repeated violations of WP:AUM and reports on the WP:AN/3RR as well. -- Netoholic @ 01:19, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Other than his spat with you over boxes (which I don't understand and on which I express no opinion), the reverts seem to be sterling work in stemming the tide of crap. Mark1 10:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

138.38.32.84[edit]

This user has been warned, and now they have struck again. Not like this deserves a permenant block yet, but a 24 hour one is in order. This is just a routine block, and the case is already a little stale. I thought I'd bring it up.--HereToHelp (talk) 03:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I placed a warning on his talk page, if he does it again, report him at WP:AIV; AN/I is not really the appropriate place for this. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

User:SEWilco[edit]

SEWilco has just violated his arbcom parole with a blatant reversion to his version on Sea level rise see this diff. [34]. Vsmith 03:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The ruling said: "SEWilco should not use a bot to convert citations on articles, nor should he manually convert citation styles on any articles," and that he's placed on probation indefinitely which involves:"If in the opinion of any three administrators, for good cause, he is responsible for disrupting the functioning of Wikipedia, restrictions may be placed on his editing, up to and including a general ban of one year. Each restriction imposed shall be documented and explained in a section at the bottom of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute 2." [35]
I suggest a block of between 48 hours and a week. Is anyone in agreement? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I cetainly am, I think 72 hours would be appropriate. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
For such a blatant violation of the ArbCom ruling, I believe a 72-hour block is warranted.--Sean|Black 03:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
72 hours will be good. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 04:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No objections here. Ambi 13:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, thanks everyone; 72 hours it is. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
As dictated by the ArbCom decision, I have posted a notice at the bottom of his ArbCom case about the block, see [36]. -Greg Asche (talk) 04:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia BattleBots? :P[edit]

16:52, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ©úrṕş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃úřρś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢ürpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃μѓṕs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Anonymous editor blocked Ⅽüŗṗş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (username)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķuŗṕš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Кú®ṕŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķûŕṕś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Кυřṕŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ⅽüŗṗş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢υrṕs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃ù®ρs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢uŗpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢ùŕṕş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ₭μŗṗš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ©üŕρš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķúrρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ⅽüѓṕş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Anonymous editor blocked Кυřṕŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (username)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢μгpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢û®ρś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ⅽüŗpš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢μ®ṗš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Кúŗρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Қυѓρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃υŗpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Çüŗρs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ©ùŗρs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Cúѓṕś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢üŕṗş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Çü®ρś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķμrpš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ©μrpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Cü®ρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Çurρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢ü®ṕš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķυ®ṕš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Çù®ps (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃υѓρs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃üѓps (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ¢úŕṗs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Curṕś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Çùŕpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Кüŕṗš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķüŗpś (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Кμгρŝ (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ℃ûrpş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ķuѓṕş (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked Ⅽùŕṗs (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)
16:51, January 6, 2006, Curps blocked ₭ûŕpš (infinite) (contribs) (Unblock) (user...)

One account created per second? One block per second? Not humanly possible! :P --Ixfd64 04:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Refactored for legibility. (changing indent method only, no text change)
And what's that "Anonymous editor" doing in the middle? :) - SoM 04:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Just helping out Curps with intruders and performing the usual admin tasks. ;) --a.n.o.n.y.m t 06:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

requested sock check[edit]

Since User:OceanSplash has questioned my blocking of User:Nosharia I am requesting a check as to whether User:Nosharia is reasonably likely (as far as sockchecks can prove) a sockpuppet of User:OceanSplash and/or User:Absent. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 04:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Nosharia (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is clearly a sockpuppet of blocked user Absent (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log). I have blocked Nosharia indefinitely. Neither is a sock of OceanSplash. Kelly Martin (talk) 04:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Kelly for clearing my name. An apology by Jtkiefer is not required but it would only show his caliber as a man of honor.
I would also want to remind you that Absent was blocked and that os the reados this person had to come back using another username. He had no other choice. This is not the reason to assume he was playing tricks. Sockpuppet has a negative connotation. In this case it can't be applied to him. The question to ask is why he was blocked in the first place when he was posting as Absent. He was blocked being accuse of being my sockpuppet. When he came back and commited the same mistake of agreeing with me, he was again blocked, ecah time idefinately. This seems to be abuse of power. The right thing to do is to restore one of this person's accounts and apologize to him. His only guilt is to not agree with Islamic agenda.OceanSplash 7 Jan 2006 05:01
I have apologized to OceanSplash on his talk page for wrongfully accusing him of sockpuppetry. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 05:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Absent was blocked for bigoted remarks and for uploading a hate image from the British National Party. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The original reason why I suspected that OceanSplash was a sockpuppet or was using sockpuppets was that he is blatantly anti muslim just like Absent and Nosharia, and also shows a similar habit of making baseless bigotted rants including accusing Wikipedia editors of being biased against him with no proof and no basis. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 05:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

User 65.97.17.55[edit]

According to this user's contribution page, this user has never made any factually supported edits. There are POV statements about VMI on The Citadel, hisd criticism of Zippy the Pinhead is that "it sucks", and his notable event for April 6, 2003 was that he played laser tag at his friend's birthday party. When the edit was removed, he posted on the Talk:April 6, 2003 page "I know it's tough to be Jewish on Christmas, but why did you revert my edit?" (all the preceding can be seen simply by looking at the diffs on the Contribs page). No one has yet to warn this user, yet his trend of behavior is clearly not amenable to the Wikipedia community. I would prefer that he be blocked outright, but I think at first that a severe warning is in order. MSJapan 06:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Unblock of 64.107.0.0/16[edit]

I have unblocked 64.107.0.0/16 prematurely from the 48 hour block that Zoe set for it upon emailed request from Blahedo, a friend of mine who I absolutely trust not to be a vandal (and who is not at the institution from which the vandalism arose).

Zoe blocked this rather large range after a series of vandalistic edits from 64.107.220.151, 64.107.220.155, and 64.107.220.164. While a range block may have been appropriate in this instance, the use of a /16 subnet is excessive. 64.107.220.0/24 would have been sufficient to cover the vandal range (as would several smaller ranges, such as 64.107.220.128/26). A 48 hour range block of a /24 range is also rather long given the high risk of collateral damage. Furthermore, it is my considered opinion that range blocks should be reported on this page. Kelly Martin (talk) 07:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Honestly Kelly, I wish we had a policy on range blocks. We really don't. It's too severe of something to do for it to be just on an admin's whim IMO. And yes, they should be reported here or at AN. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 10:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The vandal kept claiming he would keep switching IP addresses and continue his vandalism. Once I placed the block, the vandalism stopped, obviously. I got an email from another user at Knox College asking me to remove the block, and I told him that I would if he could get someone from Knox College's IT department to email me so we could discuss the repeated vandalism from their location. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Block of Deeceevoice[edit]

I have blocked Deeceevoice (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) for 24 hours regarding her refusal to engage in dialogue regarding her user page. Please see [37] regarding this issue. Fred Bauder 16:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

    • Fred, I think this action now requires you to recuse yourself from the arbitration. You should have left this to someone else; you now no longer can represent neutrality in her arbitration. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
"Discourtesy" is not, iirc, part of the blocking policy (all the more, the "discourtesy" of removing a message from you placed on her user page instead of her talk page). In addition, I find it very discomforting to see an arbitrator seek out conflict with someone whose case he is hearing. Guettarda 16:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
This is truly getting out of hand. I think that Deeceevoice is really making this situation worse for herself by not participating in dialogue, but I also think that these blocks are unjustified. Blocking for personal attacks is, according to the blocking policy, controversial, and DCV was not attacking Bauder himself. She took issue with his posting to her user page (not user talk page) and his blocking her for refusing to let him make that comment in that forum. I think this is at the heart of her behavior; if Bauder had posted to her talk page instead, he probably would have gotten a more positive response. Please reconsider these blocks, especially Sandifer's extension for what he considers "personal attacks". — BrianSmithson 17:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
She referred to his block as a hissy fit. That is about as blatant as they come. Furthermore, let's note that this is a refusal to engage in dialogue after Jimbo point blank said "engage in dialogue." Phil Sandifer 17:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm contesting more your extension of the block than Bauder's original one. And "hissy fit" is, again, describing Bauder's actions, not Bauder himself. — BrianSmithson 17:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I have unblocked Deeceevoice (talk · contribs) because I can find nothing on WP:BP to justify Fred's or Snowspinner's blocks of her. And using the {{vandal}} template to refer to her is extremely disrespectful and could be construed as a personal attack and/or harassment. --Angr (tɔk) 17:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It occurs to me that there would be a lot fewer wheel wars on Wikipedia if there were also fewer admins who liked doing things likely to start one. Phil Sandifer 17:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I've missed some substantive something or other on some other page, since this has ranged all across WP, but hasn't DCV made her feelings on the issue pretty clear? That's certainly been my impression. To then block someone for "not engaging in dialogue" is rather, well, confusing to me. Unless that really means "engage in dialogue that will result in you changing your userpage." This whole situation is a mess. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 17:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes. The engagement in dialogue would involve some statement of the form "Gee, lots of otherwise reasonable people are really upset by my userpage. Please tell me, otherwise reasonable people, what I can do to still express my thoughts on these matters in a way that does not so offend you?" Currently, DCV's statements are of the form of "Get bent, this is my userpage." Phil Sandifer 17:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe you're still discussing my user page. It's no longer an issue -- or it shouldn't be. El Grande Cheese-o disappeared it. :p deeceevoice 17:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
In other words, then, it's not really not engaging in dialogue, it's not engaging in the right dialogue. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 17:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
"Right dialogue" - well put. It's about dcv speaking her voice and not falling into line. The block was unwarranted, and Fred should recuse himself from the already unnecessary and entirely illigitamate arbcom case. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson -