Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive638

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The user has redirected their user page to their talk page and in turn redirected that to their user page creating a continuous loop. I discovered this whilst trying to add a warning for removing a AfD template from Chicagoblok. Am I allowed to unlink the pages as this situation is clearly not ideal? Due to the redirects I am unable to inform the user that they are being discussed here unless the pages are unlinked. --Wintonian (talk) 16:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've undone the redirect as it is disruptive, warned, and notified of this thread. Rodhullandemu 16:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Many thanks, I thought it might be but wanted to be sure. --Wintonian (talk) 16:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


I need help with the Selena article, I'm trying to protect it from losing featured status and another editor is adding information which I can't vertify or is false, and using unreliable sources. I broke 3rr already in the article, but some of the reverts was reverting false information so I should be safe. But I can't revert anymore. Can an adminstrator intervene. Thanks Secret account 22:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I tried to report this to WP:RFPP, but it was not letting me save it. Suggest full-protection on the page for a week or so, with warning given by some uninvolved admin about edit-warring to pages of users involved. -- Cirt (talk) 23:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Looks like this is a content dispute. It'd be better if you took it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring instead of this noticeboard. The UtahraptorMy mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 23:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Yea I don't need a warning, as I know I was edit-warring trying to protect the article from being defeatured, some of the facts were as false as it could be, like 100 million Texans went to her funeral, and that she sold over 200 million albums, which only Celine Dion has ever done. She also added some information which I found in my book source but I can't trust Ajona sourcing for my life. Secret account 23:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I protected the article for a week. The edit history pretty clearly looked like a content dispute to me. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Agree with this admin action by Amatulic (talk · contribs). -- Cirt (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
3RR does not apply to vandalism. Stating that 100 million Texans went to Selena's funeral is clearly vandalism. Along with some other edits by that user I would say Secret was correct in violating the wording of 3RR to keep the spirit of our policies regarding vandalism. If Cirt and Amatulic want to call that edit warring then obviously something is wrong with their interpretation of an edit war. Reverting vandalism 100 times in one day is a hero's work. Please dont just warn both parties in some weird PC ideology of being fair. Of course if I'm wrong and you think 100 million people from a state with a population less than that attending a funeral is a valid edit and point-of-view thereby making this an edit war and content dispute then I apologize. Otherwise I think several people owe Secret an apology.Camelbinky (talk) 00:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with a page protection as that would keep Ajona from editing the article. Ajona was deteriating the article and some of her mess is still there, but I need an adminstrator to fix any concerns on the article on its featured article review. That what caused the revert war in the first place, I tried to be nice but Ajona was adding content that fails WP:V and didn't made any sense like the 100 million Texans comment. I just couldn't trust him/her information. Secret account 00:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

100 million people live in Texas? That's a lot of village idiots :) –MuZemike 01:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Come on, just read the edits and use common sense before accusing somebody trying to fix vandalism of edit warring. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 02:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

  • I'll be willing to work with AJona as long as my book and my sources confirms Ajona edits, if it doesn't i'll just revert. There's still some unconfirmed Ajona edits in the article that my book references has nothing on it. Unprotect the page until the WP:FAR is over. Secret account 03:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio/disruptive uploads by User:ThatRockMetalGuy[edit]

This user have been caught uploading copyvio images before (see File:Hanoi Rocks 2007.jpg, File:Steve Perry Live 1979.jpg, File:Hanoi Rocks 1984.jpg, File:McCoy 2009.jpg, File:McCoy2008.jpg, etc), and I just caught the user again at File:Monroe2010.jpg, despite me and others leaving several warnings. The user completely ignores the WP:NFCC policy as well (see File:Mötley1989.jpg, File:Axl Rose Taiwan 2009.jpg, File:YngwieMalmsteen2010.jpg, File:Eddie van halen07.jpg, File:SnakeSabo.jpg, File:Duff2004.jpg, File:Jyrki69 2006.jpg, etc), constantly uploading replacable unfree images (even replacing free ones with obviously replacable unfree ones, and then edit warring over it claiming that only that image can capture that exact moment). The log history and talk page of the user should speak for itself. The user has been blocked for it before. Nymf hideliho! 10:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I propose that the user is reblocked, and any upload by the user that isn't an album cover is vehemently deleted. Nymf hideliho! 10:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Indefblocked since this isn't the first block. To return to editing, ThatRockMetalGuy will need to convincingly demonstrate that they fully comprehend why they've been blocked and how they intend to avoid causing the same problems in the future. EyeSerenetalk 11:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Scope instead for a selective ban on uploading? There does appear to be a WP:COMPETENCE issue, but not one of GF. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I tend to favour indefblocks as the default measure for repeat copyvio offenders, simply because they've clearly demonstrated that Wikipedia needs protecting from them and any sort of time-limited block would allow them to return without necessarily being any the wiser. Indefinite isn't permanent though, so if they were to accept something along the lines you've suggested as a condition of their return, that would work for me. EyeSerenetalk 14:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would (of course) like to see them return immediately to full editing rights. However we do have to resolve the copyright problem and there seems (given past history) no chance of that, owing to a simple failure to grasp what went wrong before, or any indication that they'll be competent to avoid it in the future. An appropriate past apology and future agreement could achieve that in full right now, but they don't seem capable of making it. There thus seems to be a need for infinite protection from uploads (infinite and indefinite being seemingly the same thing for this case, on current evidence). As blocks always ought to be as restricted as are barely necessary, then I suggest we should go narrower here, rather than for (the seemingly unachievable) shorter duration. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I've proposed terms for an image ban on his talk page as follows:
  • No image uploads, period, for an indefinite amount of time.
  • Six months after his last copyright-related block expires or was lifted (so at the earliest, six months from today), he may appeal for a review of his ban at WP:AN provided he can demonstrate a full knowledge of WP:COPY and WP:NFC.
  • He may request that images be uploaded on his behalf via WP:IFU; it seems to me this would give him practical experience in determining what is and isn't allowed copyright-wise.
  • Any violation of these terms may lead to a block of up to two weeks, up to indefinite after the third violation.
If he accepts these terms, EyeSerene (as the blocking admin) agrees to them, and there is no significant objection, I intend to unblock him. Hersfold (t/a/c) 16:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Note that I believe that there might be more to this than image violations. See this edit. Note the edit to the "Combination" header and then check the reference he listed. That was found from just from looking through 2-3 edits from the last couple of days. Nymf hideliho! 16:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's me explaining another one, and here's the user admitting to stealing it, obviously oblivious to the fact that it is a copyright violation. Nymf hideliho! 17:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've seen this user before as another account, I swear (that or I've been blocking socks for too long). I remembered having to tell the same thing to another editor in an unblock request who wouldn't get it; the user also went to the unblock-en-l mailing list about the same thing. The person, judging by his writing ability, could not be any more than 12 years old. If anyone has an idea what I'm talking about, let me know; I think was back in either July or August IIRC. –MuZemike 17:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've withdrawn my offer to unblock the user based on Nymf's findings. Hersfold (t/a/c) 17:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Apologies for temporarily vanishing from the scene :) I can't speak to potential socking, but given Nymf's subsequent discoveries I concur with Hersfold's withdrawal of their offer. The tone of ThatRockMetalGuy posts indicates that it wasn't malice that prompted the copyvios, but I can only agree with JamesBWatson's analysis on ThatRockMetalGuy's talk page: claiming ignorance after 60-plus warnings and a previous block isn't the sign of an editor moving up the learning curve. EyeSerenetalk 18:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Per Nymf's additional notes on the text issues, simple indef block. This is a user who just doesn't get it re: copyright. They'll need to demonstrate that they do before going near either upload or text editing. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

VolkovBot overly eager to remove interwiki links[edit]

VolkovBot is an interwiki update bot run by ru:User:Volkov in a reckless manner. It should be blocked unless and until its operator is willing to run it in a more responsible manner.

See its recent contributions - removing some or all interwikis, some to articles that are redirects to the right topic, others that appear to be completely correct. Particularly egregious was the removal of almost all interwiki links on Input. Apparently it is being run in -auto and -force mode, despite the general feeling that this is a bad idea.

Volkov has been contacted in the past about this and merely created a note arguing that it's up to other bots or humans to repair the links it breaks.

I am sure there are some good edits in there. However, it is not worth the cost. One incorrect action means someone has to figure out how to restore links on any number of languages and somehow figure out what is annoying it lest it do it again - and that assumes a person with the skill to do so is watching.

The bot is currently making about one edit every two minutes on the English Wikipedia (and of course more elsewhere). GreenReaper (talk) 03:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked the bot for now. It's an indefinite block but other admins are welcome to unblock as soon as this problem is resolved. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 03:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. I would also note that VolkovBot's bot flag was speedily approved three years ago with no discussion and with obvious errors in the submission ("X edits per TIME", no mention of period). It also says it is to be run in "automatic supervised" mode. The 24-hour operation suggests otherwise. GreenReaper (talk) 03:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
The BAG request, which was approved.— dαlus Contribs 03:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted some of the bot's edits, including the one above. ~NerdyScienceDude 03:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
  • That's right, the bot is run in auto-force mode but ONLY when it processes interwiki conflicts. In some cases multiple redirects or article status mismatch (normal article vs. disambig, like here) cause complex interwiki conflicts and the bot is unable to resolve them in a single run. In this case it tries to restore valid direct links later based on it's removal log. Interwiki conflicts are in fact multiple and have accumulated over the years. I feel like fixing errors is in no way reckless, and bot's edits are in fact analysed and manually fixed whenever possible (e.g. like here or here). Simply reverting bot's edits is not a good idea since all problematic links are restored and the conflict remains preventing the bots from keeping valid interwiki links up to date. My or any other bot will then restore valid links. You may see e.g. this page history where the links were reverted and restored back by different bots until they were manually fixed. I suggest unblocking the bot. It may seem to be overly eager - that's because it's processing the list of conflicts from the English wikipedia (NB: large page!) right now. Please let the bot do it's job and be a bit more patient and bot-friendly ;-) --Volkov (?!) 05:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
What seems strange to me is that your bot was approved with zero discussion, and that request wasn't even filed correctly(as noted above).— dαlus Contribs 06:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I cannot be sure why there was no discussion. It was 3.5 years ago. The bot was already active and approved on several other wikis at that time. Maybe this was the reason for the prompt approval at --Volkov (?!) 06:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Just like disputes at other wikis have no place here, neither should bots, just because they are in use on other wikis, be approved without any discussion.— dαlus Contribs 06:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
That was not my fault ;-) --Volkov (?!) 07:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Not really commenting on this specific case, just giving some background. Generally interwiki bots using the pywikipedia framework are speedily approved, since they are all essentially the same, and it's been proven to be uncontroversial. Normally they aren't approved quite as quickly as this bot, since there are still come things which each individual bot needs to sort out (e.g. the force/auto mode, editing templates, exclusion compliance). These days I doubt you'll find a request approved after 30 minutes. Also, with interwiki bots, the bots edits on other wikis are considered, in fact, bots with global flags are automatically approved to do interwiki here (don't think this bot has a global flag, but just an example of the bot's global edits having an effect on if it's approved here) - Kingpin13 (talk) 08:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Actually, it has. --Volkov (?!) 08:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Why are there multiple bots doing this interwiki stuff instead of just one? This is not "the encyclopedia that every bot can edit". When they said "everyone" they weren't thinking of bots. (talk) 09:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Because one bot wouldn't be able to handle the load. –xenotalk 15:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Processing the conflict list with a bot is missing the point. The articles were placed on that list because pywikipedia couldn't figure out how to handle them without potentially removing useful information. That indicates human interaction is required. A more appropriate solution would be to use a bot to drop a note on the talk page of the articles in question informing them that there may be an issue. Bear in mind that many things marked as "conflicts" may make perfect sense, since articles are arranged differently in different languages (see below). GreenReaper (talk) 18:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't see the problem. VolkovBot removed article interwikies from a disambiguation page. That's right because such cross links cause interwikiconflicts. Articles should link to articles and disambigs to disambigs. The block of the bot doesn't solve the problem in any way because all pywikipedia bots work that way. Please unblock. --Obersachse (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Just because everyone has access to the same axe does not justify giving it to an idiot (pywikipedia) and letting them run around unsupervised 24 hours a day in a busy street. :-)
You have a particular idea of how the wiki should be setup. But in the real world, this is not the case. Two related topics that have a disambiguation page in English may be covered in a single article on another language. And even if there is a correct non-disambiguation article, it is better from the reader's perspective to link to the disambiguation page than not to link to anything at all, which is what happens when the bot removes the link.
There is also the matter of removing links from "detail" articles in one languages pointing to a more general article that combines two or more topics in a different language; for example, from en:Galactic Civilizations II: Dread Lords to de:Galactic Civilizations#Galactic Civilizations 2: Dread Lords (which naturally links back to en:Galactic Civilizations). These links are correct from a reader perspective because that is where the topic is covered, and removing them because Pywikipedia cannot understand the situation is not an acceptable solution. GreenReaper (talk) 18:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
What is better for the reader? Less, but right interwikilinks or more links, but partial wrong? I prefer less but absolutely right. You may have another point of view. --Obersachse (talk) 18:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmm when you are running interwiki conflicts is the exact time you should definitely not be running -auto with -force. Because that is when it will make mistakes. -DJSasso (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

-force with -noredirect. This is the only way to clean up multiple interwiki conflicts and restore valid direct links afterwards. The very same situation was discussed in detail today on the German Wikipedia and also on my talk page. Keeping the bot blocked, or locking the pages, or making edit wars with bots is not helpful at all. Problems remain for ages and what is affected first is the quality of Wikipedia. --Volkov (?!) 20:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
No that isn't the only way, what you do once you have a list of conflicts is you fix them by hand. That is the whole point of the list, its that pywikipedia can't fix them so you need to do it manually. -DJSasso (talk) 15:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I guess you're kidding. Or simply do not imagine how serious the situation is. Just have a look at these lists. There are literally hundreds of thousands pages with interwiki conflicts. Fixing them all manually is not feasible, it will take ages. Some conflicts may be resolved by bots, other more complicated cases in fact do require human intervention. But blocking the bot doesn't help resolve this problem at all. --Volkov (?!) 16:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
No I fully realize, the problem is as has been shown, numerous "fixes" your bot has made have been incorrect, so of those hundreds of thousands, how many thousand are actually correct, and with human intervention we would see that. So quite simply put your bot is creating more issues as it goes. Blocking your bot is helping as it is keeping it from creating more issues. -DJSasso (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Please don't speculate, just give examples of "incorrect" fixes and "more issues created". I have many examples of resolved conflicts. German Wikipedia had the same concerns and they have blocked the bot for a while yesterday but after analyzing real examples of bot's fixing the conflicts, they lifted the block. And you prefer keeping the bot blocked and having things disorganized for ever? No human would be able to resolve all these conflicts manually. Just try to fix a couple yourself, and you'll probably be convinced. --Volkov (?!) 17:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Many mistakes are commited by humans and the bots automatically follow them, there are many bots that do that, everything has a sollution, I write to the bot owner and he repairs his damages, that's enough, for me, Volkov is a very efficient bot, he has done multiple connections, I don't know a bot as good as him--Jaguarlaser (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I have moved this thread here back from the archives as the issue is still unresolved.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); September 13, 2010; 13:27 (UTC)

I don't understand what Ezhiki is asking for at this point (some diffs of bad edits by the bot would be helpful) but I also don't understand why there are so many interwiki bots. There should preferably be just ONE, developed collaboratively through some kind of wikiproject on metawiki. At the very least, the interwiki bot developers should coordinate their efforts, have a common bug tracker, and generally have enough communications to not to step on each other. (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, one bot wouldn't be able to handle the load and would represent a single point of failure. –xenotalk 19:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


There is a consensus not to unblock Freakshownerd, for his own disruptive activity, though there is still some disagreement over the sockpuppetry accusations. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Freakshownerd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was blocked as a CoM sockpuppet although discussion at RFAR and the talkpage suggest that this outcome is not widely accepted. Despite this, and no doubt due to FSN's aggressive and incivil response to the block, there seems to be a lack of interest within the admin community to review his unblock request and/or unblock him. Arbcom seem rather slow reaching a definitive conclusion at the RFAR request so I think we need to take this forward as a community. I'm kinda thinking that the fact that no admin can be found to unblock FSN means that he is now defacto community banned. Spartaz Humbug! 19:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

  • I'll disagree with this. People aren't unblocking because ARBCOM is involved, or so reads a response to the last unblock request. Is this a CoM sock? I see no clear evidence of that. Has this user done anything that justifies an indefinite block or community ban? I've seen no evidence of that either. I think that at least one person responding on his webpage is being less than helpful at this point and should disengage. I personally would favor an unblock. Right now the whole thing is reminding me of some kind of authoritarian dystopia where you're guilty of a crime, we just haven't picked which one yet. Those that wish him to stay blocked should identify the crime worthy of the block and present evidence of it. Hobit (talk) 19:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
    • I think the problem is that FSN has been so unpleasant no-one wants to take responsibility for unblocking him. And I can't say I blame them either. Either way, I brought this here because we can't leave the unblock notice unreviewed forever. Spartaz Humbug! 19:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I would favor unblocking; considering his situation, I don't find it particularly surprising that he may have become unpleasant. Ucucha 19:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
    • To be honest, he's actually been on his (relative) best behavior since the block. He was much more unpleasant beforehand. Then again, I was on the receiving end of a lot of the unpleasantness, so take what I say with that grain of salt. MastCell Talk 20:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Problem here is that the ball is basically in ArbCom's court, and they can't seem to decide what to do with it. Some of them are still unconvinced of the sockpuppetry despite the mountain of behavioral evidence, yet they haven't overturned my block. Some seem to be suggesting that we leave him block without worrying about if it is CoM or not. ArbCom is sending mixed signals on this one, I've been trying to get them to give a more direct response that actually reflects a decision by the committee as opposed to the opinion of individual arbs, but that has not happened yet. I suggest that FSN's unblock be placed "on hold" until ArbCom makes a definitive decision, and this discussion likewise be placed on hold since this is already before the committee. Perhaps the extra pressure will lead to decisive action. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I had the distinct displeasure of being one of the ones to bear the brunt of CoM's aggressive tactics last year, and to say that FSN's own aggression is eerily similar is a colossal understatement. The disparate IPs give pause, but the style, manner, and the peculiar article overlaps at obscure topics is overwhelming IMO. I still hope that some of the Arbs who commented early will reconsider some of the later evidence presented, once the climate change case wraps up. Tarc (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Unblocking may help to settle the sock allegations. I don't think the climate change case will wrap up anytime soon. There were big problems with the original PD and one of the drafting Arbitrators has resigned. We're basically starting all over again with many new PDs being added which approach the problem from a different angle than the previous PD. Count Iblis (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

What are you referring to? I don't see any strong connection with the climate change ArbCom case. Ucucha 20:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep blocked, unacceptable editor independently of the sock stuff. (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The short of ArbCom's position: The link with CoM is tenuous and circumstantial enough that sanctionning CoM for socking may not be justifiable. That Freakshownerd's own behavior may warrant a block or a ban is not in question, and we feel can be handled within the normal community processes. — Coren (talk) 20:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting. So, taking that away, the user has a fourty eight hour block and perhaps we should be looking at a week from when he was blocked or under the circumstances, unblocking on a short rope, perhaps with a mentor in an attempt to keep him out of trouble. Off2riorob (talk) 20:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it's very unlikely that Freakshownerd is a sockpuppet of ChildofMidnight. That said, Freakshownerd is one of the most unrelentingly unpleasant, abusive, and hostile editors I've encountered in my years on Wikipedia. And it's not an isolated interpersonal dispute between us - a brief skim of Freakshownerd's interactions shows his combative and hostile approach to virtually every other editor he's encountered. He edits very heavily, and it's taken quite a bit of effort on the part of other editors to clean up the messes he's created.

    By comparison, ChildOfMidnight had some redeeming qualities - I'd sooner unblock him than Freakshownerd. I've been on the receiving end of unpleasantness from Freakshownerd, so this is in no way an "uninvolved" opinion, but I do feel strongly that this editor is a remarkably poor fit for Wikipedia, sockpuppetry claims notwithstanding. I would oppose an unblock. At a bare minimum, if he's unblocked, there should be some kind of admin oversight in palce going forward, to address the problems with his editing before they get to the point they've reached in the past. MastCell Talk 20:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

From what I have seen most of his insults were launched after being blocked. User seems to create a fair few articles that were sent to AFD after his blocking as a sock block evader and many wqere closed early on those grounds. Off2riorob (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
No, that's not correct. He was extremely abusive and insulting even before his first block. He has actually moderated his behavior slightly since the last block, presumably because he wants to be unblocked and has realized that pure vituperation isn't going to get him there. Whatever; I'm fine with him being unblocked, as long as someone (ideally the unblocking admin) is going to take some responsibility to be responsive to further abuses by Freakshownerd after his unblock. Because there will be further abuses. MastCell Talk 05:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I'll take your word for that then Mastcell as I have not dug through his contributions and you were on the receiving end of some of the comments and I saw some of his later rudeness. Off2riorob (talk) 05:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • So how the hell is a reviewing admin supposed to react to this? The editor is blocked as a sock, yet quite possibly isn't, ArbCom thinks it's tenuous, yet the editor has been fairly abusive, but quite a bit of that was after the block, so somewhat understandable. There's no right answer to this, is there? No wonder no-one will touch it with a ten-foot pole. Well, I'm going to bed now, but if it's still outstanding in the morning, I'd be tempted to unblock with conditions that any violations of CIVIL, NPA or frankly anything else would see the block re-instated. Anyone agree? Black Kite (t) (c) 23:20, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm tempted to put a sub-section heading on this entitled "Poll: Black Kite is going to bed now. Who agrees?" But I'm resisting mightily. If you do run such a poll, consider me opposed. You are clearly not going to bed. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
    • As I see it, the sock block has two separate considerations:
      • Is it unfair to Freakshownerd to block him/her as a COM sock, given that the socking case against Freakshownerd is substantial but apparently not airtight.
      • Is it unfair to Child of Midnight to extend his/her arbitration-imposed site ban because of alleged socking via Freakshownerd, given that the socking case against Freakshownerd is substantial but apparently not airtight.
I don't think those actions require identical levels of evidence. For the first, the duck test as usually practiced (plus the persistently abusive editing) is good enough. For the second, (going by apparent arbcom practices, here and in say the Mantanmorland case) apparently something like an OJ Simpson trial is required. My conclusion is keep FSN blocked, but don't extend COM's ban absent new developments. They are both awful editors (or the same awful editor as the case may be) no matter what. (talk) 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • support block and support sock puppet connection. Extend CoMs duration. He was caught socking once already. I just had a read of the SPI, and it is pretty convincing. The obscure overlap, especially that one article speaks volumes. Behavioural styles, etc are far too similar. Especially is comment of "the usual suspects". This user hasn't been here long enough to have a list of "the usual suspects".--Crossmr (talk) 00:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Assuming this is a CoM sock (and it sounds like it is) revert CoM's block to indefinite; this is the second sock account he's made (or at least that has been found). HalfShadow 00:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
      • I'd also point out a connection was missed. There is wikistalk overlap between CoMs previous sock and the new sock [1] Third sock? I see two on the arbcom page, freakshow, electroshox, what's the other one?--Crossmr (talk) 00:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
        • My mistake; I wasn't aware he'd been caught so long ago, I though this was a fresh sock. HalfShadow 00:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Now that arbcom has stepped away, I support an unblock with a clear understanding that uncivil behavior will result in a re-block. I'd be willing to be part of a mentoring group, but I don't have time to be the sole mentor and don't have time to be any kind of mentor for a few days (work is crazy until Thursday or so). Hobit (talk) 01:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)*****
          • I can't speak knowledgeably in regard to the sockpuppetry allegations. As there seems some doubt as to their validity, I would support unblocking FSN, but only with a clear understanding that his recent behavior now has him on short notice for civility and edit-warring. Earlier, in suggesting to FSN that he take a break for a few days (a very polite posting that he rather predictably deleted) I made the following comparison: "In many ways, it's become the case of the fellow pulled over (perhaps wrongly) for speeding. When out of frustration he punches the policeman and wanders into traffic yelling at the top of his lungs the actual speed at which he was traveling soon becomes beside the point. Even were one to cede to your attestation of innocence regarding sockpuppetry and ignore the hugely problematic style of your editing style, one would still be confronted with the way you treat others when engaged in a dispute. This matters here, particularly because collaborative processes such as WP will invariably contain disputes. How we deal with them ultimately determines the success of consensus-based writing." In other words, I don't much cotton to the argument some seem to be making that, "Well, of course he got mean-spirited if he were wrongly accused and left to dangle in the wind by ArbCom." If he's learned to be civil and work toward consensus from this (perhaps unjust) block, we should welcome him back. At the first sign of this troubling behavior, however, he should be banned. ThtrWrtr (talk) 01:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
              • I can't see any genuine doubt here. Read the SPI there is significant overlap in subjects/articles edited and behaviour shown, especially very quickly and knowledgeably entering CoM's wheelhouse not that long after joining wikipedia. Just because the IPs don't match doesn't mean it isn't a sockpuppet. He's been around enough to use a VPN or some other means to try and get around that.--Crossmr (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
The similarities between Com's postings and Fsn's are so remarkable that the only way I can not see them as the same is to imagine someone perpetrating a massive hoax to set CoM up. Not bloody likely, but not much less likely than a fresh avatar of CoM popping up at random.
Anyone considering mentoring Fsn would be well advised to spend an hour reviewing Fsn's history of talk page contributions and guessing how amenable Fsn would be to even the kindest gentlest critical advice. PhGustaf (talk) 03:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Whoopdeeda (talk · contribs) is some interesting addendum to this discussion. --Jayron32 02:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
    This is all the more obvious now. interesting contrib history..--Crossmr (talk) 06:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I've had interactions with FSN on several pages, and like MastCell found him to be aggressive, uncivil, unpleasant and combative. There is indication Freakshownerd has ever considered whether his edits or policy interpretations could be even potentially incorrect, and my attempts to engage him in a discussion of specific edits/pages, my comments are normally either removed, or I get a stock answer that I don't understand blp. For those interested in the topics and specifics, it is things like the amount of text to give to the views of AIDS denialists Peter Duesberg and Kary Mullis (minimal per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE); to include information about poppers being dangerous drugs that can cause AIDS (they don't, but they've been correlated with an increased risk due to their association with risky sexual practices); that William Dembski's intelligent design ideas have serious scientific merit (they don't, extremely well sourced with the scientific consensus being ID is retooled creationism). All of these points have good quality, university press or peer-reviewed sources behind them, and in all cases represent the scientific consensus on the topic. I've discussed these topics at length, and have repeatedly been met with angry, unhelpful replies: User talk:Freakshownerd#vandalism and fanatics, User talk:Freakshownerd#Kary Mullis, User talk:Freakshownerd#Reverted edits to Poppers, User talk:Freakshownerd#Comments 2
Despite this, I would actually support an unblock - provided there were civility and edit warring restrictions. I don't know if FSN is COM and if so, should be blocked as a sock. I do know that the current block as a sock is dubious but almost certainly due to the civility concerns is turning into a de facto community ban. If FSN has learned from this, an unblock for socking is appropriate and a problematic editor could be redeemed. If not, then FSN will probably be re-blocked for civility - and quickly. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 07:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Even if he weren't CoM (and I'm not remotely convinced that he isn't given the AN/I stuff he's done) in a very short time he's acquired a very extensive block log, and doesn't remotely seem to be a net positive on the project.--Crossmr (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - I think that the SPI is compelling and as such FSN should remained blocked. However as it is not without doubts I would not extend CoM's block. Codf1977 (talk) 11:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm deeply involved with the sockpuppet identification, but nonetheless, here's my view: i) the behavioural evidence that FSN is CoM is overwhelming. Put the entire case together (it came out a bit in drips, after the initial batch based on which the SPI was closed - see arbcom page) and I don't think there's much room for doubt - were it not for the checkuser evidence to the contrary. How you weigh that against the behavioural is a matter of judgement, but I think it far more likely to be successful CU evasion than someone who ticks all those boxes of continuity of obscure interests combined with behavioural [that is, tone and attitude etc] evidence. And surely no-one who's looked at the evidence believes FSN to be a fresh account; to my knowledge FSN has never owned up to what previous accounts he's had if he is not CoM. ii) nonetheless, the doubts raised by ArbCom create a prickly issue, and it leaves an unfortunate limbo being unaddressed so long (and seemingly not for a while yet). So I suggest the options are: a) wait for Arbcom to decide. Not a great option as they've already indicated they would be focussed on whether the sockpuppet identification is strong enough to extend CoM's ban, without necessarily saying whether it's strong enough to justify continued block. b) re-open the SPI, and ensure those issues are as fully aired as they can be. Probably won't change anyone's mind, but it might possibly clarify community view, since SPI was closed quickly and further evidence emerged later. c) start a ban discussion based on available evidence for FSN (including the evidence of FSN's own socking). This doesn't seem entirely fair because we wouldn't be at this point (quite yet) without the sock issue; but on the other hand, it could be argued that just brought a closer focus on FSN's behaviour, which can well enough be judged on the merits. d) unblock, and see if FSN can become a good member of the community, and start a ban discussion specifically for FSN if and when it proves necessary. This seems likely to postpone the inevitable; it is quite clear that the FSN account was started with a particular view of "abusive admins", and as hard as it was for FSN to deal with criticism before this episode - I find it really hard to imagine FSN could get past this and become more constructive than he was before! In sum, there's no great option, but in view of the evidence that FSN is a sockpuppet of somebody, it is hard to countenance option D. So I would suggest we consider B or C. (FSN could change the equation somewhat by coming clean on who he was before, but that seems unlikely.) Rd232 talk 15:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Plus, if you block someone for being a behavioural sock (i.e. someone whose editing is essentially indistinguishable in tenor/problems from an already blocked editor), you've blocked the first person for problematic behaviour. Why would the second person be permitted to keep behaving in a way that was problematic? If we can't distinguish FSN from COM based on hostility, incivility, edit warring and general tone - why does FSN get to keep editing while COM is blocked? The only reason I can see is to ensure fair warning so they can change their behaviour. In this case, fair warning has been given repeatedly and the closest thing we have to a "behaviour change" is for FSN to say they will avoid the "problematic" pages. It's not the pages that are the problem, if the editing habits remain the same then any page that is the source of a dispute will end up being a "problematic" page. This is essentially a restatement of Rd232's point (c). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 16:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm convinced that it is indeed CoM and even if I'm wrong the editor in question warrants an indef block for his disruptive, uncivil and other behavior so therefore I too support the imposted block.TMCk (talk) 16:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • For those that may not find the evidence at SPI compelling, note that there is a lot more evidence included by User:Bigtimepeace at the WP:RFAR page. And I don't see that ArbCom has "stepped away" I think they are just busy with the whole climate change thing and this is on the back burner for now. Several arbs have commented on the matter but I am not aware of any official ruling or whatever that actually represents a decision by the committee. If there is a consensus here first I suppose that would trump any future decision from ArbCom and the RFAR would be closed with a pointer to this discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Comment moved from Freakshownerd's talk page NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 23:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC):
  • Thank you for initiating a discussion. I am not a sock of anyone. I have pledged to avoid conflicts going forward. It's frustrating that my block log is cited since the first two blocks were mistakes acknowledged by the blocking admins. It also seems that some editors/admins are trying to muddy the waters by suggesting I've socked, for example with the Whoopdeedooda account (whose supportive comment here was removed from this page). I have not socked and welcome an investigation into those allegations. I have a fixed IP address and I am not a sock of anyone. I seek only to get my editing privledges back so I can contribute in good faith. There has been a long series of false allegations made against me, but at this point I'd just like to be able to make uncontroversial contributions in areas free from intense dispute. Despite the many attacks against me (many of them totally false), the overwhelming majority of my edits have been constructive improvements to the encyclopedia that are entirely consistent with policy. I would like a chance to demonstrate that I can avoid any problems going forward, even though there hasn't been much of a recognition that other editors and admins contributed to the problems I've encountered. Freakshownerd (talk) 18:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
    • This is the CoM-to-a-T behavior that you just cannot shake; no one else is responsible for your actions other than yourself. Just like last year, simple editorial disagreement balloons into massive arguments. Admins and/or 3rd parties that intervene and do not agree with your position become "part of the problem", in your eyes. Once the blocks and similar sanctions begin to tumble down, the aggression gets worse. Every admin that opines against you or declines an unblock gets savaged along with the rest.
    • Another telling clue that I realized recently is your interactions with myself. We crossed paths at DRV over record label prods several months back, I still had your talk page on watch from commenting there, so a few months later when I noticed some worsening relations between you and WLU, I offered advice on dispute resolution, which you removed without comment 1 minute later. Obviously anyone can remove any comment they wish from their own talk page, but that is pretty drastic to do to someone with who you presumably have had only brief past contact with. It is something you;d do to someone who you are rather familiar with and have a history with Tarc (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • If we cannot keep him blocked as a sock (which I still think he is, but let's assume for the time being that the evidence is insufficient), perhaps we could block him as an impostor? He certainly does a heck of a good job at it. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we have a consensus forming that FSN's exhausted community patience for now. The sockpuppetry issue is unclosed and unlikely to be closed with indisputable proof or disproof, but his behavior by itself has created a lot of exhausted patience. I think this is a "consensus not to unblock" situation for the time being. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • The evidence is clear, CoM = Freakshownerd, and the repeated disruption from these accounts means neither should be unblocked. No sensible admin is going to unblock. ArbCom have dropped the ball on this and have made themselves irrelevant due to their over-hesitancy. Fences&Windows 01:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threat[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved: Legal threat "resolved", blocks issued to OP and several socks. Doc9871 (talk) 00:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

See here. Sorry I'm not able to look into this further myself at the moment. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 18:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Although difficult to tell from the way they pursued it, their basic objection was that File:Martin_Munsch_Producer.jpg is a copyright violation, which appears to be true. It's up for speedy deletion at the moment, and per WP:DOLT, I'd suggest immediate deletion. In the meantime, because the IP managed to put their foot in it with the original edit, they haven't been advised as to how to legitimately request speedy deletions or how to contact OTRS. Gavia immer (talk) 19:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)It's a link to an email copy on a copyvio sent to info-en-q@wikimedia. I've removed the link and image from the article, it's tagged on commons for speedy. Although inappropriate to place it on article space I think it passes the "what is not a legal threat" bit on our policy. Although, I won't dissent with an opposing call by another admin. —SpacemanSpiff 19:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
On a deeper look it looks like something weird on this one, the IP has been editing the article for two years, and isn't happy at being reverted or some such, and now this action. So my initial AGF might be misplaced and a block is appropriate. —SpacemanSpiff 19:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
SarekofVulcan beat me to it. —SpacemanSpiff 19:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
See 2010070910045921 for more info. I'm dealing with the ticket now. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 19:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I didn't just block the IP, I made sure that someone had tagged the image for copyvio first. It's apparently taken care of now, so if anyone wants to override my NLT block, I won't be offended. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Note - The IP actually added the image back in October of 2008[2], and has been talking about "cease and desist" and copyright violations since at least July[3][4][5]. It does seem to think highly of Marty Munsch[6]... Doc9871 (talk) 20:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
True, but it could have been an intern editing from the same IP. Could a commons admin check who uploaded the image please? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 21:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
It was uploaded by commons:User:Carcassbait. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
IP seems to be related to the account SOcal9045 (talk · contribs), and is the subject according talk page. Rehevkor 21:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
SOcal9045 claims to be Marty Munsch[7], and the IP has been suspected of being MM in the past by at least one editor[8]... Doc9871 (talk) 22:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - There's also this image of the Punk Rock Records logo which is owned by Marty Munsch and received a C&D threat here. I removed the image from the article but it's still in commons. Having dealt with these articles for a while now I'm pretty sure that Mr. Munsch is the same person who uploaded both images and has been threatening the C&D orders. Both the Punk Rock Records and Marty Munsch articles appear to have originally been written by Mr. Munsch himself (or at least greatly expanded by him). It was after several of us cleaned up the Munsch article (read: stubbified) that the threats and vandalism began from MM. SQGibbon (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
One early "expander" of the MM article, this IP, perfectly matches the geolocate of the IP in this thread. No edit overlaps, as one IP began editing after the other ceased. SPI, maybe? Doc9871 (talk) 01:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Folks, there are tools out there that can detect edits from complete CIDR ranges; this is one of them. That being said, has been blocked 1 month (AO, not a CU block) for continued legal threats. –MuZemike 04:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Also,  Confirmed:

MuZemike 04:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP marked as blocked, but not blocked[edit]

Hi. The page Special:Contributions/ says at the top that the IP is blocked, however the 6month block expired a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if something needs to be manually done to remove the message at the top there, or if it should have automagically disappeared? - (Sorry if this is in the wrong noticeboard. Please move freely, no note is needed, I will follow via editsummaries.) -- Quiddity (talk) 17:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It's probably covered by a newer rangeblock. As far as I know, whenever you see that pink banner on a user's contribs page, they're blocked, even if you can't see the block. Soap 17:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't see the blocked banner. Syrthiss (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Just did a "cacheless" reload, and it's gone, although I doubt that was the problem. Anyway, for future, try WP:VPT for this kind of thing. - Kingpin13 (talk) 17:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Mazca unblocked at 17:49. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I don't think a rangeblock was the case - the user has clearly edited earlier today. I just "unblocked" using the normal form and it resulted in a block log entry and removed the message. I can't see a clear reason for what was going on here - if my mystery unblock has cocked anything up, do feel free to fix it. ~ mazca talk 17:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I ran across the same thing with an IP that I blocked in January for a month. It was still showing blocked, but was clearing vandalizing long since. I chalked it up as a fluke, because another admin blocked the IP before I could and I didn't see them bring it up anywhere. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 19:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I've seen this bug several times, and it confused me to no end each time. —Jeremy (v^_^v PC/SP is a show-trial!) 20:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Actually it's possible you've run across an auto-block info leak, which is essentially an information leak. I don't know if this is a documented error, but I'm very confident that I've seen this kind of info leak with autoblocks before. The summary is that auto-blocks (which by their nature are anonymous) are indicated on a blocked IPs page because the blocked IP user's page displays the block, but there's no corresponding entry in the block log. I've seen it when there's an old block that's no longer in place (you can't know for sure unless you're a CU, but I suspect a high probability). I don't know if it works too if the auto-blocked IP never had a previous block. Shadowjams (talk) 01:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Update on Factorx1983: Sockpuppet MRAgentOrange[edit]

Hi, all. The blocked user Factorx1983 is now sockpuppeting as MRAgentOrange. He has been harassing my company, Amble Resorts, and our island in Panama, Isla Palenque for months. Thankfully, intervention by the courts and the police have diminished his harassment in the flesh, so he is now harassing us on this forum. Please watch out for him, especially on Panama-related pages. Thank you, Flimoncelli (talk) 20:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

From what I can tell, the disruption has been done at the Spanish Wikipedia so far from the sockpuppet, the User:MRAgentOrange account does not exist at this Wikipedia. Palenque Island has seen no activity since the original account was blocked, and Index of Panama-related articles has a list too long to scour through for one editor's mischief but I suppose it's worth noting. -- Atama 21:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I assume that Flimoncelli was referring to this? Perhaps if he brings matters here in future, he might remember to provide links to relevant pages? And if there is evidence of sockpuppetry, WP:SPI is the place to take it. David Biddulph (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I totally missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. You're right that I had to hunt around a little to figure out what was going on, links would be helpful next time. I'd like to add that if MRAgentOrange is a sockpuppet, their request was reasonable and was fulfilled. -- Atama 00:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Queen moves[edit]

I have undone some unilateral moves of Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary, Maria of Austria, Holy Roman Empress, and Margaret of Bohemia, Queen of Hungary, and protected those pages from move-warring, even though I am partly involved in move discussions of European royalty (although not the ones I've moved and protected). Bringing it to attention here for transparency. DrKiernan (talk) 07:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Where is the discussion about royal and noble article titles? [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 04:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
On the individual article talk pages (live discussions listed among non-related pages at WP:RM), and at WT:NCNT. DrKiernan (talk) 07:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Serial IP vandal[edit]

I am hoping that you something can be done about a serial pest who has been vandalising wikipedia since late 2007. He is an IP hopper so any block is pointless as are locking articles because he will just find a new one. This person has about a dozen articles or topics that he will mess around with as you will see from my list. I'm hoping that it would be possible block his IP range?

The 60 odd IPs that I've listed aren't even close to the actual number of addresses he has used here to vandalise but should be enough to give you an idea of the extent of this nuisance and also of the IP range he uses (I admit I don't understand this stuff so don't even know if this is going to be workable). Geolocate reveals the following information, consistent for each and every one of the IPs -

  • ISP: Telstra
  • Domain: Bigpond
  • Weather Station: ASXX0230 - MOUNT LAWLEY PERTH METRO

Over the last couple of weeks an admin has had to block 2008 VFL season, Victorian Football League, The Critic, Australia's Funniest Home Videos and Werribee Football Club. He is more active then he has ever been and I'm getting sick of cleaning up after him.

As it's a long list I've created User:Jevansen/IP Vandal. You will find the IPs listed along with some articles or topics that he has edited in brackets to help prove they are all from the same author. Below the list is a legend which explains each topic and gives examples. I hope it helps and I REALLY hope that something can be done. Thanks! : ) Jevansen (talk) 04:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Consider filing at WP:ABUSE and WP:LTA. Cheers! :-)   Thorncrag  04:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your quick response. If I'm not mistaken I believe Wikipedia:Long-term abuse is for those with actual accounts rather than someone using IPs. That leaves Wikipedia:Abuse response which only allows reports where "The IP address has been blocked at least five times". This person ditches his IP after he has been blocked and starts using another one, so that criteria isn't going to be met. Anyone other options? Jevansen (talk) 05:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Discussion moved to user talk page.   Thorncrag  05:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
This is the right place. You've sort of burried the lead, which is that User:Jevansen/IP Vandal lists 60 IPs related to this issue. I note 4 ranges involved. Some of them are old. Which ones are active in the last month? Shadowjams (talk) 05:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
  • 58 range has been active as recently as August 29 but others from this range are from months earlier
  • 60 range was last used August 5 but again others are mostly older
  • Both the 121 range and 124 ranges have been the most used of late, with plenty of cases this month and last. Jevansen (talk) 05:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
and he's back again.... Jevansen (talk) 09:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring on Cryptozoology articles[edit]

An uninvolved Admin is needed to review the history for the page Bigfoot, as there appears to be a degree of edit waring occurring regarding alleged bias in the article. One side is accusing the other of not adhering to a NPOV, the other is arguing that the views the other side wants inserted are Fringe theories. The matter was brought to my attention when I picked up the case from the MedCab docket. I would like an uninvolved Admin to determine if short-term page or topic bans are needed, or possibly a 1RR. I would very much like to avoid this case seeing arbitrationRonk01 talk 02:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Really now, edit warring over Bigfoot? WP:LAME is thataway. → → → Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ronk for looking into this. However, I would disagree with your assessment of the situation, and encourage you (and anyone else investigating this issue) to dig a little deeper with respect to the involved editors. Based on article history and the discussion page, it appears at the Bigfoot article 2 editors (User:Gniniv and User:Timpicerilo) are attempting to change the article from reflecting that the vast scientific consensus is that Bigfoot is not real to more POV weasel wording which gives increased credence to its existence without valid sourcing. When these editors were reverted by a number of others, they (very briefly) took their objection to the talk page before User:Gniniv decided to file a mediation request claiming bias.
I don't have any experience with Timpicerilo, so I can't speak to his edits. However, I do have a great deal of experience with Gniniv, and his history should very clearly attest to this sort of disruptive behavior on a variety of articles over the past number of months. Rather than adhering to WP:BRD, he appears to be now engaging in "BRM", where as soon as his edits get reverted as opposed to consensus, he immediately goes to mediation. His last RfM, which nearly resulted in him getting topic banned, should paint a pretty clear picture of his behavior and the impact it's had on the other editors who have attempted to work with him. This last debacle resulted in him sanctioning himself from contentious articles to avoid being subject to administrator intervention, but his self imposed sanction apparently didn't last very long.
There is nothing wrong with the Bigfoot article (at least which can't be solved by collaborative editing from good faith editors), and sanctions imposed on the article would be inappropriate and unhelpful. The problem is a disruptive editor. I've been considering taking this to ANI for some time, but I've been doing my best to avoid it. Alas, now that we're here... perhaps now is the time. I'm going to inform some other editors who have experience with this issue of this discussion. In the meantime, I would recommend reading through the current MedCab talk page, the last RfM, and (if you have the time) this user's history of almost entirely reverted POV edits and disruptive editing. Far too much editor time has been wasted on this already... I think it's time this comes to a close. Jesstalk|edits 02:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Having been invited here for some reason that I am not clear. I will state that User:Gniniv is prone to running to mediation when (s)he feels that it his/her way this one is a fine example. BTW the dispute is over Fringe Theories at bigfoot? I have to ask what qualifies as fringe when talking about Bigfoot? IMHO It would be very hard to come up with something too fringe for the Bigfoot article...BB7 (talk) 03:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, clearly, the whole idea of Bigfoot's existence is fringe, but the point is that when Wikipedia deals with fringe theories, it must treat them as fringe, not as legitimate minority scientific positions. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Also directed here, but I also have extensive experience with Gniniv. I don't see why another ANI about this editor is necessary. Cryptozoology is pseudoscience and we have a general sanction on pseudoscience. Trying to make the Bigfoot article sound more like bigfoot is real despite the mountains of facts it's not, is clearly editing against wikipedia policies. A year-long-block according to the general sanction would be well within order. — raekyt 09:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Is that you proposing a year's community ban of Gniniv, Raeky? If so, I support. I have studied the recent History of Bigfoot, with its interesting edit summaries, and Gniniv is a disruptive editor, quite impervious to the arguments of others, and editing entirely according to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or Argumentum ad nauseam. The same is true for User:Timpicerilo, though he doesn't seem to have as bad a history of disruption. For him a few months' page ban on Bigfoot-related articles (there is for example the POV fork Evidence regarding Bigfoot), would be appropriate, IMO. Bishonen | talk 13:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC).
  • There are four Bigfoot articles? The mind boggles. Similar problems at Cryptozoology. Over at Flat Earth I find this [9]. He indeed has problems with NPOV (see his edits on topics dealing with evolution as well), but also with WP:V and WP:OR. See my edit here [10] where he had written "His contention that Ancient Egyptian chronologies need to be revised is shared by the British historian, Peter James" in an article on a creationist archaeologist, referencing the claim to a book by Peter James. However, James had not made the claim, David Kyrle Down had (I know his brother off-wiki and get their e-publication, just as an aside) and I had to edit the claim to make it clear that it was Down making the comparison, which isn't quite as impressive. :-) It would matter less if he hadn't been lecturing another editor recently claiming that another editor didn't understand what he called our core policy, WP:V (I did point out that we have 3 core policies which shouldn't be considered in isolation). He suggested the editor create a new article, Criticism of Bigfoot. And his recent request for mediation -- I was gobsmacked by that. Dougweller (talk) 16:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh yeah, we need a wildly POV Criticism of Bigfoot, why not? We have a bio of Jon-Erik Beckjord, the "interdimensional" alien Bigfoot "theorist", anybody remember that stubborn edit warrior? (Deceased in 2008.) "If it's far-fetched and unproved, Beckjord buys it." We have Bigfoot trap, articles on the Wild Man of the Navidad and the shy Mogollon Monster with its bloodcurdling scream. And a crapload of stubs about single Bigfoot books and Bigfoot movies. But this is the funny part: we have Bigfoot in popular culture ! I mean, what the ¶‰¢¥”"#€% kind of culture do the Bigfoots in the other articles belong to? Bishonen | talk 18:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC).
    • Native American culture, for one. And then there is actual North American folklore, as opposed to the crap Hollywood churns out; for example, as a kid we told each other that the Bigfoots that lived in the nearby mountains were the same as the Tibetan Yeti. (Not sure if that proves anything other than we Pacific Northwesterners take the stories far less seriously than some.) Of course, to write those articles would require some actual research & digging thru academic journals like Journal of American Folklore -- but I digress. -- llywrch (talk) 23:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
The same as the Tibetan Yeti? Well, you got that part right, both a lot of codswollop. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Are you always that nasty about people's beliefs, traditions, & entertainment? I was merely pointing out that there is a lot more to the topic -- most of which is unrelated to this dispute. -- llywrch (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I've made a couple of edits in the one article(1), and there are numerous problems that need the attention of fresh hands. (talk) 18:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • To be fair, Bigfoot may be fringe, but its fringe with a following. There have been books on the existence of Bigfoot, a Discovery Channel Special (which found DNA that suggested that it might just exist). I know I saw an episode of Rugrats dedicated to Bigfoot. And this is just stuff that I have seen and read and I'm not exactly a follower of the phenomena. (The book was given to me)--*Kat* (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I just wanted to point out that unless Bigfoot already has discretionary sanctions attached to it, administrators can't initiate topic or page bans, only blocks for misbehavior. The place to suggest such bans is actually here (or WP:AN). -- Atama 22:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Depends on how widely you interpret the wide latitude given in the general sanction for pseudoscience. My understanding on that GS was that any article related to pseudoscience would be under it's umbrella and Cryptozoology is definitely a candidate in my book as pseudoscience. Even if an admin doesn't want to go that route I think after all the past trouble we've had with User:Gniniv that a community ban is in order and should be brought up. — raekyt 02:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Nessie must be feeling sad with all this attention being paid to BigFoot here. :( . Count Iblis (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Maybe, maybe not. Afterall, Bigfoot may have all these articles but Nessie has Twilight. :-D --*Kat* (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
      • I am more than willing to accept General sanctions on myself as long as it is applied unilaterally to other editors involved as well....--Gniniv (talk) 04:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
        • I also want to remind you guys as you come to the decision that the bias problem is prevalent on both sides of the issue. Bigfoot really needs work before I think it can qualify as WP:NPOV. All the efforts involved so far have been editors fighting over its status as a "fringe" theory while the actual underlying bias problems are overlooked. I think a fair solution to approach this is just to put a notice of WP:General Sanctions on the article, and watch the editors involved for edit warring and WP:Good Faith violations. I know that a majority of editors think that this is "fringe" theory versus science, but it is really a dispute over the integrity and effectiveness of our dispute resolution process. All I can say in response to those who would have my account banned is that my activity has had the intention of a WP:NPOV presentation, and as a relatively new editor, I have worked towards lowering my own personal bias and learning to work collabartively towards a compromise with more experienced editors' assistance. If this ANI notice leads to my permanent ban from Wikipedia, all I can say is I have thouroghly enjoyed the challenging and competitive work towards increasing the quality of this online encyclopedia and I thank all the editors (such as User:Mann Jess and User:Twinsday) for their help and support as we worked towards that goal. I hope eventually that a less biased WP:V Bigfoot article will be the result of our work.--Gniniv (talk) 04:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Gniniv, has anyone pointed out that your sig is unreadable? That doesn't help your case here. -- llywrch (talk) 16:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Bigfoot problem[edit]

I think that a significant amount of effort has been expended trying to improve blanket statements of majority consensus on these articles (Bigfoot and Cryptozoology) by myself, and due to the fact this is seen as violating WP:NPOV (though in my book I am merely trying to give coverage to a significant minority view) I am imposing a one month ban on myself for these articles. I hope my absence will inspire others to work towards removing rule of the majority problems and WP:Systematic bias without having me to blame as the scapegoat. I appreciate those editors who are of a similar mindset.--Gniniv (talk) 04:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
You still don't recognize the problem. Considering I've spent months working with you nearly every day, I'm at a total loss as to how to express it better than I already have. This isn't about the Bigfoot article... it's about your approach to editing on wikipedia. You are not working collaboratively with other editors, and it has become a serious problem. As much as you talk about "overcoming personal biases", and "working towards NPOV", you are actually decreasing the neutrality of fringe articles via weasel wording and a gross misunderstanding of WP:Weight. However, this would not be a problem, since other editors have always been quick to revert you and discuss your edits in depth. The problem arises when you are unwilling or unable to understand the issues you're introducing, and when you insist on continually reintroducing them over and over again.
I mean, seriously Gniniv... I don't know how many editors have told you how many times that changing "scientists" to "mainstream scientists" in fringe articles is not increasing neutrality. You've been doing it for months! Every time an editor tells you it's not acceptable, you say "ok, I understand", and then I catch you doing it again a day later. I've played through dozens of possible explanations for your behavior in my head, in a desperate attempt to assume good faith... from a language barrier you hide extremely well, to multiple personalities (or roommates) editing under the same account... but none of them do it justice.
I would really love to see you contribute positively Gniniv. I really would... but after all I've tried, I see no way that's going to happen. Dozens of editors have worked with you for extended periods of time to help you adjust, and your behavior has only gotten worse. This new trend of opening mediation requests as soon as your edits get reverted is beyond disruptive. So were your repeated GA nominations of start-class articles a month or so ago. Nearly 98% of your edits to article space get reverted, and in all your time here, that number hasn't even begun to go down. I'd ask you if you understand what I'm telling you... but I know from experience you'd just say "yes" and the problems would persist. So... what would you recommend we do, Gniniv? Jesstalk|edits 05:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
My conclusion is (in WP:GOODFAITH) that I can't edit (with my convictions) in a way that absolutely conforms to the WP:Systematic bias present on Wikipedia. The simple truth is that I am editing with pretty much the same methodology as many editors, though my philosophical perspective does not conform to the majority. Since Wikipedia is (in practice, though not in policy) a democracy when it comes to editing (whichever view has the most support survives-e.g. Natural Selection), my POV is disfavorable to the majority of editors, and is therefore removed. I agree that many (most when I first started editing) of my edits are in need of improvement and I thank all the editors who helped mentor me through my first months of WP:TE and unsourced contributions. Since my worldview (WP:WORLDVIEW) is different from the overwhelming majority of editors, the overwhelming majority of my edits are reverted, even when they are properly sourced to their authors. I have no malice against Wikipedia for being this way (Its one of the oft-overlooked consequences of a "free" Encyclopedia) but something obviously needs to change. I was hoping my edits would draw attention to the fact that a large amount of Systematic bias is present on this site, and hoping that it would induce organizational changes to benefit significant minority viewpoints. As it seems the rule-by-majority still stands, I will bow out of editing until furthur notice. You will see that my user has been retired. I am proud of my accomplishments (the revival of WP:CRYZOO being at the top of the list) and I enjoyed the critical and challenging enviroment Wikipedia offered. All I can say is that I held to my convictions and I hope that what I did will inspire others to do the same. Finus...--Gniniv (talk) 06:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
You still have a serious problem with the use of sources. As you know, you've just had an edit reverted by two editors (one of them me, the other Jess), at Objections to Evolution, where you were adding a quote (ironically by someone described as an anti-Creationist) that didn't discuss evolution. You were adding this presumably to make a point about how scientists work, as that was the thrust of the quote, presumably as a way (the 2nd time) as a comment on scientific acceptance. I've commented recently on your use of sources that aren't specifically discussing the subject. It's your right to have convictions, but you still have to follow our policies and guidelines, and it seems that you can't do this. Dougweller (talk) 08:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
You're still missing the point... but you've clarified for me what the problem has been these past few months. You think wikipedia is biased, and the editors here share that bias... and so your goal has been to come in, guns ablaze, and single handedly fix that bias yourself... consensus be damned. That's not how wikipedia works. As I've explained to you repeatedly, wikipedia is collaborative; that it is free doesn't mean anyone can come in and own any article they disagree with. The third part of the BRD cycle is of tantamount importance, and it involves being able to hear and understand the objections raised by other editors... which you've universally failed to do.
This inability has lead you to grossly misunderstand WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, to the extent that you feel every point of view you can imagine should be given equal time, even without so much as reliable sources demonstrating prominence. I can't begin to explain to you (yet again) why this is wrong, since your fundamental assumptions about wikipedia, and your reasons for editing here, are so diametrically opposed to our mission. If you feel that you need to leave wikipedia for good, then by all means... but based on your previous history of "leaving" articles and then returning almost immediately, I'm not fully convinced it'll take. That said, I'd like to advise you that if you do decide to return in a few months, I'd be more than happy to welcome you back and work with you to edit constructively... with the understanding that if you return to these old habits or demonstrate you don't get why your behavior has been unconstructive, I'm not going to just "reset" and spend another 6 months assuming good faith.
Whether or not I see you back again, good luck. Jesstalk|edits 17:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and Harassment by History2007[edit]

No administrator action is appropriate here at this time. Contributors are advised to follow dispute resolution for ongoing concerns. Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This editor has been following me today on Catholic articles and reverting all my edits. Just now, over on Catholic Mariology he reverted all my work with one revert.

Revert on Catholic Mariology: [11]

At first I thought I'd deleted something by accident until I realized they were still following after I'd asked them to stop on my talk page.

[12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]

Reverts on Blessed Virgin Mary (Roman Catholic)

[23] [24] [25] [26]

They also followed me to WikiProject Catholicism


They are back on my talk page again right now. I've worked hard on these articles today and now it's reverted. Please help. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 06:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

In addition, on the Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer talk page, History2007 moved my posts without my consent and fitted them into a section as if I was answering his questions. [28]. He has done this on Leo XIII's talk page as well, and he's also restated my posts in 'straw man' type arguments. There are also numerous uncivil posts on the Catholic beliefs talk page as well as spread over several other articles. I can get diffs if necessary. Any relief you can provide would be most appreciated. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 06:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I would like to see administrative action to address this problem. History2007 has been getting away with this bad behavior for far too long, and he's chased many good faith editors away from this topic with his POV pushing and edit warring. Viriditas (talk) 07:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, please see: User_talk:Jclemens#Admin_help_requested who was aware of the Afd on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer. This flurry of edits started after the 4th vote on that Afd was a "keep". So following User_talk:Malke_2010#WP:WIKIHOUND_warning I already asked Jclemens to comment, given that he is aware of the Afd situation that gave rise to this. It would also be good to ask User:Moonriddengirl to comment given that she is an Admin, Malke's "mentor" and advised her against her following me. History2007 (talk) 07:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Please also see: User_talk:Jclemens#Admin_help_requested where he already commented on the issues. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
User History does appear to have been following Malke round and mass reverting her alterations claiming this and that, long term stable and such, it can be very upsetting to have your good faith work mass reverted like that. Off2riorob (talk) 12:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Article histories will show that User:History2007 was a prior contributor on the articles in question. Having worked with User:Malke 2010 for some time, I also suspect that these two share an interest in the subject that is going to bring them into contact again and again. They also have a fundamental difference of perspective that needs to be calmy and civilly worked out. I'd like to leave a more detailed comment here as Malke's mentor but I am unexpectedly dealing with a copyright "emergency". :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, copyright emergency in lull. :) I suspect there are some misunderstandings here. For the two articles in question, User:History2007 was the immediate prior editor to User:Malke 2010: [29]; [30]. It is entirely reasonable that he would have been watching these articles. Too, a look at his Wikipedia talk space edits demonstrates that he didn't need to follow Malke 2010 to arrive at WikiProject Catholicism. They also are obviously using different definitions of "rmv", which per Wikipedia:Glossary#R entry typically means either "remove vandalism" or "remove." I suspect that is the basis for History2007's assertion that the articles were stable ([31]); Malke2010 seems to me to have meant it in the second sense ([32]). I suspect that they each are feeling significantly bruised at this point, History2007 because his work has been undone in a way that he felt implied it was done in bad faith and Malke 2010 because her work has been undone in a way she feels dismissive. I don't doubt they both feel harassed. I think these two need to come to some accord in the way they will work together and that History2007's suggestions below are sensible. Alternatively, I think they could benefit from mediation. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Seeking WP:CALM[edit]

I thought about this issue and my suggestion is:

  • Malke and I voluntarily agree not to do any edits to Wikipedia for 3 days, except for reverts of clear vandalism by other, unrelated users, or developments within our own user spaces, or talk pages. This will achieve some calm and give me time to work on new "fun articles" without getting into debates.

Then we can seek 3rd opinions, one page at a time. I think this voluntary 3rd opinion path will be the best way to stop a heated waste of time for everyone. History2007 (talk) 10:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Calm is good. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would like to speak on behalf of History2007. The encounters I have had with him were nice, friendly and focused on constructive edits. Although he clearly does not take enough time to explain himself I have only known him to mean well. --Faust (talk) 13:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
It's good to know you've had good experiences with him. :) I think the real question here, though, relates to the interaction between the two of them and how it should move forward. I don't think admin intervention is appropriate at this point; I think they have considerable more room to explore dispute resolution options between themselves before we hit the point of sanctions. History's suggestion of calm and perhaps some voluntary distancing seems a good one, but I am still inclined to believe (as I said above) that some voluntary mediation might have the best long-term effect. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, MRG, but I think that your being an admin has stopped others from coming forward here. And SarekOfVulcan, excuse me, but you came to my talk page with a petty concern which means you've obviously been watching the gross incivility of History2007 with no concern.
MRG, please look over these pages and then come back and look at the "instructions" History2007 has posted on this thread. First, he always break up a thread so others won't notice what has gone before. Second, he sets rules and makes demands. If you honestly examine what he's been doing over several wiki pages, you will see he's a disruptive, uncivil, bully, and if other editors had been doing this, they would have been blocked. I can't imagine Toddst1 putting up with this if I'd done half of what is posted up there. History2007 should be blocked.Malke 2010 (talk) 15:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
oh so very not helpful


Support. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

A divergence from the current line of discussion, but I have had issues with History2007 as well. I am an illustrator on Wikipedia, painting coats of arms and trying to add more art to this encyclopedia. However, History2007 has issue with me adding my paintings to Wikipedia, despite the fact I only add images where there are one or where I only replace poor quality clip art versions. History2007 and his two supporting editors have forum shopped, trying to ban me at the conflict of interest and original research notice boards simultaneously, both boards which ignored them. We agreed to have the heraldic WikiProject unofficially arbitrate, but that decision was ignored when there was no flaws found in my argument and History2007's argument was found unwarranted. So History2007 declared and informed me that an admin he picked would hand down a decision, but that admin also sided against History2007 and, again, the decision was ignored. See Talk:Pope Leo XIII for a bulk of the argument. Elsewhere on theOur Lady of Mount Carmel article, I have seen History2007 request protection to avoid discussion with an IP user. There is no reasoning with History2007, he is hypocritical and finds technicalities to ignore any compromises he agreed to (I am under the oppression that were the opinions to go in his favour, he would declare these binding decisions). A block would be appropriate, I would suggest three days, to give History2007 enough time to reflect on his actions and realize that his lone dissent can not impede the community and consensus. My apologies for the lengthy entry, thank you for your time and patience. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 03:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry Mt Liptak, but again I do not follow your logic. There have been as many breaches of Wikipedia policy in what you discuss, as there have been copyright violations on the Afd, namely zero. No copyright violations and no breaches, but enough of that, the reason I bothered to respond to it is that the Leo XIII issue brings about a key policy shortage within Wikipedia, namely "the lack of an image selection policy". And given that you have mentioned it here, I would suggest that such policy should be drafted. The reason Canterbury Tail could not provide a formal decision on Leo XIII was that he could not find a suitable Wikipedia policy to apply. I think such a policy is needed. As stated there, I am not sure where to suggest it but I will suggest it here and anyone please feel free to move the item below the suitable suggestion place:
Alas none of us is a mind reader, so we can not know why images get added. But suppose that an up and coming motor manufacturer, say Chery Automobile wants to get its name in front of the public in the US. Can they get a few of their marketing people to add images of Cherry products all over Wikipedia? Is there a policy regarding that? Can the images of a compact SUV be a Chery Tiggo, the image of a station wagon be a Chery V5 the image of a transmission that of a Cherry transmission and the image of a Disc brake a Cherry disc brake? (By the way, any Cherry executives reading this, please do send me a generous wire transfer for mentioning your name here.) And of course Etro can replace all images of gloves, scarves and shirts by distinctively colorful Etro designs. But this will tun Wikipedia into a marketplace, not an encyclopedia. I do not see a Wikipedia policy on this issue. And that is the source of debates therein: lack of policy. I would therefore suggest a coherent policy suggestion for how images are to be handled. But given the fragmentation issue humans will not be able to see the image distributions easily enough, and the best (and not difficult) way will be to have a bot that produces a report of "vendor presence" within Wikipedia. But the bot will need a policy. So I would suggest a policy discussion in the suitable place, then a bot design to provide such reports. History2007 (talk) 13:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
This isn't something which is going to be resolved on ANI. My own experience with History 2007 has been overwhelmingly (indeed exclusively) negative, but ANI doesn't handle "this editor disrupts the project in myriad ways" complaints very well. Eventually someone will need to draft an RFC/U on him if this is to be handled properly. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 11:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I have to note that Xanderliptak's comment was canvassed. While Malke 2010 removed the comment herself, I'm afraid there's little doubt that it still drew his attention to this conversation. That said, Chris Cunningham is exactly right. If there are problems with History2007, they need to be handled in teh proper form--and without personal attacks. Xanderliptak, it is inappropriate to refer to other contributors as "hypocritical". Please confine your comments to their actions and remain civil. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I was under the impression that it was only inappropriate to make "[a]ccusations about personal behavior that lack evidence". I thought I provided ample anecdotal evidence of hypocrisy when History2007 agreed two separate times to have an independent party arbitrate the argument, only to have him declare each invalid after the decision went against him. One of the arbitrators was hand-selected by him as an admin he had previously had pleasant interactions with. It seems to be the definition of hypocrisy: to appear to be willing to compromise and agree to arbitration, when in reality History2007 had no plans to abide by a decision unless it was found in his favour. But henceforth, I will refrain from such statements. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 13:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
e/c Don't worry Moonriddengirl, he has said worse than that, but I have learned not to let it bother me. He will say this and that, and next week it will be forgotten. The key is to take this as an opportunity to put in place an image selection policy that will last for long, so if you know where, please suggestit. Talk comes and goes. History2007 (talk) 13:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:VPP may be the best place to start. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Grossly offensive comment on blocked user's talk page[edit]

Will someone with a mop please have a look at User talk:Negrosrslaves? Someone needs their talk page editing privileges removed. Yes, sigh, I will notify them... Drmies (talk) 05:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Talk page access revoked. AlexiusHoratius 05:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Seems like a pretty clear sock of somebody interested in the user last referenced on the talk page. Perhaps a CU check would be appropriate. Shadowjams (talk) 06:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I think the user name is a "bad name", maybe? "Negroes are slaves". It's "kind of" offensive... Doc9871 (talk) 11:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
That's just one of several reasons that guy needed to be indef'd (and was). The fact it's a sock is fairly obvious. And this outrageous comment [33] which is what this section title refers to, even if his username were "I Love Everyone", is enough to put him on ice for good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
This autoblock has affected me. The user - who I don't know, I should point out, must work for the same company as I do. We have limited internet access here at work, wikipedia being one of the few allowed site, and I do much of my wiki-ing from work. An IP block like this could potentially affect hundreds of users, as we all access through the same intranet. I'd also like to mention that this block has been awkward, as I couldn't request unblock, as my talk page access was also revoked. This may well be the same for other users. I've had to sneak to a third party company and use their internet access to type this. Asking such a favour could well cost me a cup of coffee. Yikes. a_man_alone (talk) 16:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Enjoy your coffee, I IP Exempted your account. A man alone appears to have been autoblocked in June as well, so this is not a new circumstance - and the username that caused the block then (User:Pinniacle) might be another name to add to the sock hunt, if and when. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 16:51, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Not my coffee unfortunately - I meant that I would have to buy somebody else a coffee after they let me use their PC, and indeed into their building in the first place. As I have no real desire to out myself, I'll be deliberately vague, but I had to leave my own place of work and visit a supplier (just down the road fortunately) to be able to type the above comments. However - I'm back, in both senses of the word. Thanks Ultra. a_man_alone (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

For how long should an IP sock be blocked?[edit]

Yesterday, I blocked (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for 31 hours as a nominally first time vandal. Their actions did look rather "experienced" and today Lothar von Richthofen provided this evidence, which I pass on:

You blocked the IP address earlier today for repeated vandalism. I did some digging and found that the edit and reversions (1, 2, 3) made to the page Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision strongly resemble edits made earlier this year by accounts permanently banned for sockpuppetry:
and possibly also this now-deleted edit:

In my opinion, there is no reason to reopen Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Asiddeamong, since it's a definite WP:DUCK, but the IP should be blocked for more than 31 hours. My broom is a bit new, so my question is: how long? It's a directly allocated address, but an indef might be a bit controversial. I should note, that the IP has requested unblocking several times, promising that they will no longer vandalize. The reviewing admins were not impressed. Favonian (talk) 08:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your instinct. No reason to reopen another SPI on an obvious one. A few issues probably should factor into the length of an IP block. Indef is never appropriate on an IP.... but in some extreme cases a 3 year block is appropriate... in extreme cases. So long as there's a reasonable time-frame where if someone forgot about the whole thing it would go away, the block is justifiable.. I would suggest basing the decision on the variability of the address (if it's the same editor for 12 months then it's virtually a static address, block for any submultiple that editor's had the address) and also the spread of the IP. That's a basic approach, but there are definitely ISPs that fluctuate wildly and others that don't at all. Trust the edit history on the IP if there's a doubt, and use the IP range calculator if there's a question about collateral damage. There are plenty of IPs that change week to week and others that only change every few years. It's a trick to distinguish them, but if the same soft of edits show up years apart it's a strong sign. Just my opinion. Shadowjams (talk) 10:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Sock IPs are usually blocked for 6 months or a year. Of course if it looks dynamic, you could use 1-3 months. –xenotalk 12:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks both of you for your replies. In the concrete case, it's one single IP having performed no previous edits and which furthermore is directly allocated, so I don't think there will be any collateral damage. I will therefore extend the block to six months. Favonian (talk) 18:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Counti Iblis posting email - breaching confidentiality/copyright[edit]

As raised in the section above by Tim Shuba [34]. On User:Count Iblis/WikiLeaks, Iblis posted some or all of an email sent by Jimbo to Brews Ohare. Even though the content is not particularly contentious, the principle with emails has always been that content can only be posted on wikipedia with the permission of the sender. As Iblis proclaims the email to be confidential, I doubt he has the permission of the sender.

I have removed the text [35] which I suppose technically ought to be revdeleted. Offenders have been blocked for this action. Count Iblis should have a slapped wrist at least (it's the principle of the thing rather than a massive BLP violation in this case). Anyone care to administer the WP:TROUT?--Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the page per WP:IAR, since I considered the potential privacy violations were not covered in the drop down down menu and I was using admin privilege; thus restoration upon community consensus or policy basis requires no further reference to me. I have also not enacted any sanction or warning to Counti Iblis, as we are both partipants in a current ArbCom case. Again, this should have no bearing on any decisions made by the community in this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would like to state that I have not had many dealings with Count Iblis, but my experiences with him have been that he is a sincere person and genuinely interested in creating a reliable encyclopedia. While not everything he does might be 100% decent, I am sure he has had a good reason for his behavior and that a seri