Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive65

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User:Mistress Selina Kyle[edit]

Mistress_Selina_Kyle (talk · contribs · block log) I'd appreciate input from other admins about this user. S/he's been here for just over two weeks, seems to make very few useful edits, and spends most of her time causing problems and insulting people. She has 500 article edits (most of which I guess are reverts), but 1,633 on talk, project, and template pages. [1] I get e-mails every couple of days from editors she's offended wondering how long they have to put up with it. She's been warned many times and blocked 10 times, but nothing makes any difference. I asked her to stop again today, [2] but her response was to change the header of my post, [3] delete my second post, [4] then alter my first one. [5]

As this is an encyclopedia, I'm wondering what the benefit to Wikipedia is of her presence, and I'd like to know whether anyone agrees that the account should be blocked. Or if I'm wrong and she is in fact contributing constructively in some non-obvious way, I'd appreciate hearing about it. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

My experience with this user is limited, but I do have some, and it hasn't been positive. She was extraordinarly rude and disruptive at Zatanna over a fairly minor issue. I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, that I also blocked her there for violating 3RR. While blocked for 3RR several anons began to show up to continue reverting. The article remains protected, in part because she (and other users) cannot agree on this continuing problem. You may also be interested to inspect this diff [6], the results of a sock check suggesting that Miss Selina Kyle may be User:Chaosfeary. (I note that she left a message on Chaosfeary's userpage as well [7]). · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 18:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
However, the last block of User:Mistress Selina Kyle, by Kelly Martin, may have been a bit of a stretch. See User talk:Kelly_Martin#Chat transcript for why the block was done. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes - (s)he should send karmafist a thank-you letter for cleaning up after her/him. Anyway, I do agree that if it continues kyle should be blocked - but lets take it in increments please...Start with a day, then a week, etc.. Simply outright banning looks bad - and that's the last thing that is needed at the moment. WhiteNight T | @ | C 19:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I've been watching this user quite closely. She is an unrepentent edit warrior on multiple pages. She has an uncanny knowledge of Wikipedia's politics for being here just two weeks. She's been attacking and disparaging multiple users. Blocks of ever-increasing length is a good strategy, until/unless someone can confirm whether she's a reincarnated banned user. -- Netoholic @ 19:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Upon comparison, I am absolutely convinced that this user is a reincarnation of User:Chaosfeary. -- Netoholic @ 19:40, 3 January 2006
Hmm, you have a point there. Started contributing just after Chaosfeary stopped, too. User:Chaosfeary wasn't permanently banned, I thought? —Matthew Brown (T:C) 20:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I am convinced they are one-in-the same based on some specific editing quirks of both users. Chaosfeary was getting blocked progressively more often and longer. In fact, SlimVirgin mentioned a permanent block, right before Chaosfeary's last edit on Dec. 9th. -- Netoholic @ 20:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any of her other contributions... but see this revision of {{User antimonarchist}}. There were at least two others like this that I saw. Given the timing of her block, I also strongly suspect it was her behind User:N000 (see its deleted revisions, if you don't mind waiting a long time for it to render), User:Saveus, and the other two IPs I blocked on the 1st in relation to this whole mess. —Cryptic (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I am 100% convinced she is a reincarnation of SOME long-time user, banned or not - nobody truly new leaps into Wikipedia and instantly starts MULTIPLE wars on known contentious subjects and knows how Wikipedia works like that. I haven't seen any credible theory on who she might be a reincarnation of, however. The sockpuppetry allegation should be checked out, that's for sure. I would support blocks for excessively warring behaviour; we are here to produce an encyclopedia, not to argue as a goal in itself. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 19:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Not an admin, but just a brief note to confirm that MSK, in my experience, has contributed only hatred and disruption. Zora 19:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I met MSK when she was replacing pics of Jimbo with those of a video-game megamaniacal warlord and I was doing vandalism patrol. After a few 'pleasant' comments on my appearance in the photo on my userpage I made a joke, she felt bad, and we have since gotten on fine. She is a handful to be sure, but does make some constructive contributions to the article space from time to time. My favorite editor? No. (that'd be me of course)... but not beyond hope or redemption. Guide upwards... not crush downwards. --CBD 20:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to mention Mr Data (talk · contribs), a new account that turned up to revert to MSK's version at Aisha just after she was blocked for 3RR, and another one on the same day, forget the name, both of which she claimed were friends. CBD, can you direct me to any constructive contributions she has made? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
A user with the name "Mr Data" screams "I'm randomly looking around my computer desk for a new name to use". Mr Data is a company that makes cheap recordable optical media. --Kiand 00:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[8], [9], [10], Macro virus, Macro_virus_(biology)
Likewise to CBD here. I think she's her own worst enemy, and far too vitriolic when facing those who disagree with her, but not a bad faith editor. I've let me know that she's just making it worse for herself, I will only intervene again if she's blocked by someone she's having a dispute with or she needs a friend. These are trying times for all Wikipedians. karmafist 20:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Wow. El_C 20:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Willy on wheels seems to hate me, surely I can't be that bad? more than 10 impersonators, wow.. -_-
  1. 18:03, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Ky1e (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  2. 18:01, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress-Selina-Kyle (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  3. 18:00, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Discuss my sockpuppets (mistress selina (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  4. 17:59, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle creating a sockpupp (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  5. 17:54, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle - Wikipedia prostit (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  6. 17:53, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle = ME = THE WIKIPEDI (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  7. 17:51, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle personally attacks (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  8. 17:50, 30 December 2005, Antandrus blocked Mistress Selina Kyle hates Pigsonthewing (infinite) (contribs) (abusive sock)
  9. 17:50, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle hates Pigsonthewing (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  10. 17:49, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle's second sockpuppet (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  11. 17:49, 30 December 2005, Curps blocked Mistress Selina Kyle's Sockpuppet for va (infinite) (contribs) (user...)
  12. 17:49, 30 December 2005, Antandrus blocked Mistress Selina Kyle's second sockpuppet (infinite) (contribs) (sock for personal attacks)
  13. 17:20, 30 December 2005, FireFox blocked Aspergersgeek9 (infinite) (contribs) (WoW)
um anyway joking aside I'm not a vandal or whatever and I'm definitely no-one's sockpuppet: And those other people (Mr Data, CSB and N00000) are NOT me: I bet SlimVirgin never even checked first - *They were* internet friends though, but in getting people to help me I was just doing the same as what Yuber was doing at the time: going round to other editors and getting them to revert for him:
(example, Farhansher, who immediately afterwards went on every Islam-related article and reverted back to Yuber's POV version) - I was just trying to help stop the rampant POV-pushing going on
One example
  • Labelling the Pro-Islam source "evidence" while the other is a "claim" is wrong: they're both claims as I tried to point out, I talked to Svest (talk · contribs) and he was ok with it after I explained in more detail on his talk page and pointed Yuber towards that but he wasn't interested and carried on revert-warring
  • And it's true that there's no way someone could end puberty at 9. I mean come on, that's a relevant observation: It's a sick joke to say someone at 9 is post-pubescent.
See Lina Medina and think again. alteripse 00:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The labelling of one view/opinion as "traditionalism" is wrong, it's just another side of the story: The fact is there's no proof on either side and that's something that's accepted, which is why there's two sections (proof for, proof against etc) in the article already -_-
Some of the edits by Yuber are just blatant censorship and SlimVirgin supports him all the way: Anyone accused of being a "sockpuppet" against him is banned immediately, while anonymous IPs with no contributions tend to appear out of nowhere and revert for him and no action is taken at all
What you say is demonstrably false. I submitted evidence in a fairly recent arbcom case against Yuber, and have taken recent admin action against him. But I will support him when he's being unfairly attacked and possibly stalked, as seems to be the case here. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
She really seems to have something against me, probably because I tend to oppose her blatant nepotism and cliqueism (as I have said before). Recently she decided she'd paste on my talk page a link to Irishpunktom (one of her editing friends) insulting me on another article's (Islamofascism (term)) talk page and then complains when I change it, that's what's triggered this off she seems to REALLY want the last word.
Netoholic (talk · contribs)'s not neutral in this at all, he'd love to get me banned not because he's "convinced" I'm a sockpuppet but because I opposed some of his editing on articles like Eminem: He's said before he'd like to get me banned, he's pretty vindictive. After daring to change "his" infobox celebrity (to try and make the image work better, it was resizing ALL images even small ones to be a certain size so messing things up and making them look distorted) he stalked me onto Eminem and reverted me several times and reported me for 3RR on that and then later on Latex, an article he's never even edited the preceding unsigned comment is by Mistress Selina Kyle (talk • contribs) 23:32, 3 January 2006
I've never edited Latex, but I did notice it in your contribs while checking other things. -- Netoholic @ 01:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's try and deal with this in a way which doesn't go into personal attacks. She's still trying to 'find her feet' here, as the metaphor goes. --Sunfazer 22:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, she's a new user and she does make valuable and valid contributions, so perhaps we should take it easy on her. If she violates WP:NPA, she should be warned with the {{npa}}...{{npa4}} templates and blocked if necessary. But no permanent blocks. - ulayiti (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The consensus seems to be to start implementing blocks of increasing length for disruption and personal attacks. Karmafist, you said or implied MSK had made some useful edits. Does anyone have any diffs? I'd like to give MSK the benefit of any doubt. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
There's no reason to start pasting my contributions onto the administrator's noticeboard because you think I "may not have made enough useful edits" ..That doesn't belong here, and there's definitely no rules about "not making enough edits" - it looks more than anything that you're clutching at straws trying to imply I'm a ""bad editor" --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 01:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

(Not an admin) I'd just like to point out that some people may have contributed anonymously long before bothering to get an account and log in; their real list of contributions may be more than what is on their user constributions page. Also, some users do not bother to log in unless commenting to a talk page. This may also explain the familiarity of a "new user" with WP. - Synapse 01:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

As Karmafist seems to be MSK's main supporter, I've left him a note asking that we keep in touch regarding how best to proceed. [11] Hopefully, that way we'll avoid wheel wars. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Your problem is obviously a personal one with me and the fact I don't like how some of your friends act, this shouldn't even be here --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 01:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I have no personal issues whatsoever with you, and hope you're able to turn into a constructive editor. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I already am. Your definition of "constructive" seems to mean nothing more than "let my friends walk all over you and revert war all they want" though: This is what's been going on recently. If anyone's "stalking" anyone it's Yuber and Farnhansher doing it to me. For example how Yuber tells him to go around reverting every edit I make all the time on articles he's interested in back to his own personal POV which often include unsourced personal opinions, original research and clear bias: For example like in Aisha how he was venhement in labelling the one saying about that Aisha may have been older as "evidence" and the others as "claims" and reverting when I tried to change this to say both as claims (NPOV): He does this kind of stuff all the time and when he needs help in revert wars he goes to you and you help him: You block my friends claiming they're sockpuppets with no evidence, yet his group of reverting anonymous IPs (with just as much evidence, often with no other contributions than reverting) that appear occasionally when needed are ignored out of hand --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 01:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised you'd try to defend your editing and revert warring at Aisha with your unsourced, original research e.g. that "post-pubescence at nine ... is unheard of in medical terms ..." [12] and while I've no doubt you have a point (though I think you may be wrong), you need a source for the edit, because your name is not Professor of Gynaecology Mistress Selina Kyle, and the editors who reverted you on the grounds of WP:NOR were right to do so. Your sole purpose in making the edit was to underline that Muhammad, believed to be a prophet by Muslims, was a nasty old pedophile, which shows a lack of knowledge about male-female, male-male, and possibly female-female, sexual relations during that period. If you want to be a Wikipedian, you have to edit and interact within our policies and do at least a modicum of research. If you're not prepared to do this, you ought to leave, though I hope you'll choose the former course. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Wrong, I was trying to get rid of the POV and disregarding out of hand any evidence that points towards the view that shows otherwise. You don't seem to know the meaning of "assume good faith" that you supposedly hold "highest of all" (quote from your user page) and seem to want to stifle any criticism of anything to do with religion, especially Islam
And offtopic: I do know that it was considered "acceptable" back then for such things but that's nothing to do with it at all: just because middle-aged men having sex with nine year old girls was considered "acceptable" back then doesn't mean it isn't still sick: We know better than to allow people to abuse children now, even if you get certain weirdos occasionally wanting to return to the "good old days" of being allowed to marry and have sex with kindergarten kids. --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 02:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
From what I read through this all, Selina, the point does not seem to be as much about what opinions you have, but rather about the way you seem to be expressing them. Revert wars, fights with other users, incivil behavior, all must stop. You seem to be accumulating blocks regularly, and that usually has no good consequences. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

MSK -- there is an odd combination of unwarranted hostility toward me (calling me an Islamist and so forth) and an unwillingness to engage with me in discussion, even benign discussion. (For example, my query to you about your vote on the deletion measure for Fascism (United States). This combination of instant hostility and strained silence is strange, since you and I have never had any disputes before. BYT 13:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

MSK -- I don't care if the user is an incarnation or a mirror of some or a few ex and present users but the behaviour of MSK is to be changed. Seriously!. They have been asked gently many times to refrain from using the ists when interacting with fellow wikipedians. I was one of the first users who noticed the hotty behaviour of the user being curious about about the userbox admin that they posted for fun on their userpage the first day!. I was assuming good faith believing they are really newbies! A few weeks later, still assuming good faith but this time believing I was totally wrong!

One more issue. I am not a fun of festivals of userboxes (I got enough though) but i saw the user creating havoc and anarchy in the community re the issue, which i personally consider it is not the first thing we need here. We need good editors, editing and avoiding useless controversy. I mean, seriously, we have some weird userboxes (i avoid to name them wikiboxes to not participate in their spread and be accused of conspiracy) and see that as a sign of individuality in wikipedia that i am against.

MSK, appart from the non respect of policies (being blocked more than enough) and the amount of conflicts they have had with tens of wikipedians, including myself in the case of Aisha and its relative discussion. This is something serious as it is the problem touches the community and one can never make life horrible for many. We spend more time arguing and witnessing incidents and infrigements (like here) than we do contributing. We got work to do and I can't accept contributing more to this board than to the main reason we all came here for. Cheers -- Szvest 20:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Just noting here that I've blocked MSK for 12 hours for this edit. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Could people please focus for a moment on the first thing SlimVirgin said: this "newbie" has been blocked ten times in two weeks. Block the account indefinitely right now. Please note that "don't bite the newbies" doesn't mean "let the reincarnations walk all over us." Bishonen | talk 03:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC).
Make that eleven. I'm not blocking indef, as I have no first- or even second-hand knowledge of Chaosfeary, but a week for repeatedly removing others' comments from WP:TFD is at best lax given her history just at this username. —Cryptic (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Twelve, rather. Sean Black blocked her indef just before I got there. —Cryptic (talk) 07:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah - it is kind of sad, but I've seen nothing but meaningless edit wars from the user, and have seen various pages protected etc. because of it. No objection here. WhiteNight T | @ | C 07:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with this. 12 blocks in the span of 2 weeks is pretty much showing to me, at least, that the user is pretty much impossible to save. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 07:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with an indefinite block as well—I've had enough of this. — Knowledge Seeker 07:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm not an admin, but I'm going to disagree. Looking at the "evidence" of disruption available on this page, I see hardly anything worth a block (with the exception of the vandalism to Iain_Lee), much less an indefinate one. Looking over her block log, I can see only six or seven blocks that were not a) two admins blocking at the same time for the same offense, b) a block to reblock, or c) blatant corruption innappropriate interpretation and application of WP:NPA. Looking at the evidence initially provided by SlimVirgin, I have a few things to say. First, there is no rule against re-structuring your talk or userpage. Changing headers on your user talk page is not innappropriate behavior. Second, I fail to see any evidence in the diffs provided of innappropriate removal of talk page comments. Third, when Mistress Selina Kyle editted SlimVirgin's comment on her talk page, it was to correct the diff she had provided. SlimVirgin had linked to a diff where MSK was removing a blatant personal attack - MSK corrected the link to point to where she implied the user was a fundamentalist muslim. Certainly not "hiding" anything - in fact, being so polite as to point it out to you. Mistress Selina Kyle is disruptive at times, I'll grant that, but I fail to see any egregarious violations of policy. Just my two cents, for what it's worth. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 08:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that short blocks applied liberally for specific bad edits may be less controversial than an outright indefinite block. (I'm not saying I particularly disagree with the block in this case tho.) Also, as previously pointed out, she sure looks like no newbie, so a sock check could be informative. Friday (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
A sock check was very informative: Mistress Selina Kyle is a vandal. Of the five IP addresses she uses, two belong to a hosting company (unusual) and one of those is shared with at least two dozens vandals of the worst sort, including at least one incarnation of Willy on Wheels. An indefinite block is clearly warranted as it is now quite obvious that she was here for the primary, if not sole, reason of stirring up trouble. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Neutral as ever. Yet another "neutral" point of view in relation to an issue that directly concerns you, in which you suddenly come up with "evidence" that you for some reason don't feel it necessary to present to anyone. Is a vandal? Since when. She was just someone who was trying to prove your corruption. Glad to see that you've managed to get rid of someone who was proving your corruption. Now you can feel free to act however you like without fear of reprisals. This is User:Zordrac/Poetlister all over again. And I suppose now you'll have to ban all of the people who protest MSK's block too. When will it ever end? Will there ever come a time when you tire of the coverups? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 01:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Those black helicopters are really coming to get you. Ambi 03:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it would make for a better atmosphere if you tried to understand his upset. He seems to have misconceptualised the situation but slamming him won't fix his misconceptualisation, will it? Be gentle. I don't think Kelly's "evidence" proves much. So she uses a hosting company. Does it issue IPs on the fly? If so, MSK has the misfortune of sharing a hosting company with vandals, and so much for "research". I daresay she uses them because she was banned under a previous name. I agree that MSK is more trouble than use, but it seems to me she's fuelled more by overenthusiasm than malice (the one silly vandalism aside). It surely would have been more friendly to block her for a couple of weeks to think about whether she wants to contribute constructively, and to place her on a revert and PA parole (by which I mean suggest that she should agree to both and agree to be blocked for a week for a breach -- paroles are after all supposed to be agreements on the part of the person who has been punished). You have to ask yourself whether you can believe that she genuinely wants to contribute. Some -- and I don't blame them, SlimVirgin in particular, who has been sorely tried -- are going to think not, but I like to be positive about people -- assuming the best I can about them -- and I think she should at least be given a shot at redemption. Grace Note 09:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Grace Note, I never thought I'd see the day I agreed with you on something, but it appears today is the day. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 03:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
My apologies to you, Evil, for being entirely unaware of who you are, and as a consequence, entirely unaware of why you would disagree with me on every issue. -- GN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
Oh no problem. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 17:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Hosting companies are almost always (I've yet to find a single counterexample) instances of CGI open proxies. A normal user will not get an IP from a hosting company. If she (or anyone else) used two IP addresses from a hosting company, both should be indefinitely blocked as open proxies, unless someone comes up with a really good excuse for the specific IP. OTOH, the use of them is no indication of malice — some people simply like using them, and they being shared with vandals is an inevitable consequence of they being open proxies. She could also have used them to evade collateral blocks (which can happen often if you use AOL, or some ISPs which use a single shared proxy), or to try to access Wikipedia from somewhere which blocks Wikipedia. --cesarb 01:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Unblocking by Evilphoenix[edit]

  • I would like to point out for those reading this discussion that Evilphoenix has now unblocked MSK with the recommendation that she take her case to the arbitration committee after the elections. Apparently MSK thinks new arbitrators will be more favorable to her case. I am all for an arbitration case so all relevant facts can be aired and I think the case should begin immediately so that justice is served either way. Waiting to see what the election brings is a form of temporal forum shopping, and it is contrary to our best interests to hold up action. If MSK has been wronged, or if she has wronged Wikipedia, then in either case the community needs to take and enforce remedies quickly. Johntex\talk 01:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason to unblock in this case--looking at his recent contributions on this matter, it seems to me that Evilphoenix leapt to conclusions and took precipitate action without proper consultation, against substantial support for this indefinite block. I have restored the block but bring the block here for review as is my practise. I will not block again if this block is removed. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that a half-hour prior I had also reblocked the user based on Kelly Martin's sockpuppet check. [13] Demi T/C 03:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm 100% in favor of Tony's action. It would be helpful if Evilphoenix posted here, also, if only so that we may know whether s/he has consulted the arguments above. Especially the argument about 12 blocks in 2 weeks. How does it conduce to writing the encyclopedia to keep such abusive, timewasting users around? Bishonen | talk 01:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC).
I did look at this thread, and I think this is all very convoluted, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. From what I've seen on her Talk page though, she seems frequently incivil but not bannable, and I'm trying to sort out why she was banned. I unblocked her because I don't at this time support a ban, and my understanding is that if Admins dispute a ban, then it's not a community ban. (those being ones where user are banned simply because no one else supports unblocking them). That being said, I'm also not going to unblock again, I've taken my action, I'm not here to engage in a wheel war over it. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 02:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I believe Kelly Martin used as a justification to block MSK that she was connected to vandals who used the same (or in someway connected) proxy. However it turned out that the user had to use a proxy as her College bars access to Wikipedia so it is unlikely she was in anyway connected to the vandals. The user has made valid contributions and is a member of Wikimedia UK. Although she has exhibited incivility I don't think a indefinite block is justified. Arniep 01:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Arniep on this, there's definitely been some vandalism connected with MSK though, is particularly worrisome, and I think we need to figure out if there's a connection there. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 02:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well. I've looked through her contributions and don't see justification for an indefinite block. There has been enough incivility and personal attacks to warrant some form of block, though not an indefinite one. I think a week ban as originally suggested would be appropriate. JYolkowski // talk 02:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
MSK did make that claim, which has not been verified. Meanwhile Kelly Martin found that MSK has used an IP from the same provider that has not been used by other editors. You say she's a member of Wikimedia UK--has she attended meetings? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Special:Contributions/ Jkelly 02:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not big on wheel warring, but given the above, I'll indef block her until doomsday. —Cryptic (talk) 02:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we get confirmation that that's her? If it is, so let her be blocked. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 02:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
LOL. That's obviously not her. I think that's User:Lir, based on his comments on . Almost certainly a user from there. MSK doesn't use those boards. So take your pick which already banned user it is. The IP address should obviously be permabanned of course. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 02:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
It's not her. The ISP doesn't match her usual ISP (the one she uses when she's not editing through random open proxies). Kelly Martin (talk) 02:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Good to know. Jkelly 02:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is. The comments are still deeply distressing, however.--Sean|Black 02:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
If I can chime in, the vandal that Jkelly points out has been on my thoughts- as you can imagine, I was deeply hurt by the things this person said, and if it was MSK, I have lost any sympathy I had for her.--Sean|Black 02:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Not that you actually showed her any. Grace Note 03:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Assume good faith, please, and please don't assign me motives. Thanks.--Sean|Black 03:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Steady on. "I'm going to block you indefinitely next time you do something I don't like" isn't "sympathetic" in anyone's books, Sean. And I have no idea what your motives are for anything that you do and wouldn't dream of assigning you any. -- GN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

This 12 blocks thing. Can we clarify that she has actually been blocked 12 times in two weeks and that it's not a case of blocking, unblocking, reblocking? How many offences actually was she blocked for? If it's fewer, can editors please stop stirring the pot by repeating the claim? Grace Note 03:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

  • She recieved four blocks for violations of 3RR, one block for vandalism, and two blocks for questionable definations of "personal attacks". The rest were multiple blocks at the same time, or unblocking to reblock. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 03:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, I forgot to note the eighth block, by Sean Black. However, I am not aware of the reasoning behind that block, as no specific edit or series of edits was pointed out. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 04:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • So basically eight blocks, not 12, and at least a couple on spurious grounds? Four for 3RR? Well, that's not good but it's not quite the trail of evil it's painted to be. Even admins get into revert wars from time to time. -- GN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

So, frankly, let's review. The anon above that's posting inflammatory posts isn't her, so Cryptic's (one of the indef blocking admins) comment that he'll block her till Doomsday shouldn't apply. I'm looking through the diffs people have been posting and I'm seeing incivility and some bad choices, but somebody help me understand what exactly it is that's gotten her banned. This needs to be an RfC or an RfAr. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 03:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

She hasn't been banned; she is currently just blocked indefinitely. Bans can only be imposed by Jimbo, by the arbcom (neither of which applies here) or by community consensus (which doesn't apply here either, as there is patently no consensus). JYolkowski // talk 03:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with unblock by Evilphoenix. Appropriate procedural actions (RfC, RfAr) weren't taken, so we have a user, indefinitely blocked for NOTHING (remember presumption of innocence and WP:AGF). I think MSK has already learned her lesson and having this ridiculous block continued is damaging to Wikipedia and its core values. Grue 07:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, drop the drama, please. MSK had virtually no edits to the encyclopedia, and had dedicated virtually all her attention to playing wargames with other users. We've assumed good faith for the last few weeks, but it's gotten well to the point where the ongoing damage she's causing to the project vastly outweights her five or so edits in the article namespace. Arbitration is not required for someone who's making no productive edits. Ambi 09:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Except that she made a number of useful edits, in several namespaces, and certainly a lot more than "five or so". Sure, she was heated often, and definately overzealous in her contributions, but as for "ongoing damage to the project"... there is none. She vandalized one article, and was reprimanded for it - no other vandalism has taken place. She has more frequenly been involved in revert wars, but the way I see it, a revert war takes at least two people. As for "dedicating attention" to "playing wargames", it could be argued that pointing out abusive behaviour is far more beneficial to the project than passively ignoring it under the pretense of building an encylopedia. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 09:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Please stop blatant lies like that. It is obvious that she did good edits in various areas of Wikipedia. Just run Kate's tool and see for yourself.  Grue  09:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Spare the personal attacks, Grue. Edit counts really don't cut in here, as even MSK, in her own defence, could only give about eight examples of useful things she'd done - about four relatively minor edits, and about four things in the userspace. I notice that you don't even try to show otherwise, but instead throw ad hominems around. She was a nightmare to deal with for anyone who disagreed with her, and she was actively engaged in driving her opponents off the wiki. At the same time, there was very few, if any, ongoing useful edits. It is patently obvious that an arbitration case would have resulted in the exact same result two months down the line, with either the old or the new committee. As such, there was absolutely no benefit in keeping her around pending the inevitable. I'd like to think you two were above this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" nonsense. Just someone is attacking someone you dislike does not mean that they're worth defending. Ambi 13:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: cut the bullshit. Read her contributions instead of recycling the lies of her opponents. There are lots of good edits in main namespace. Of course there are also bad edits, but good ones outweigh them. Grue 13:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
For the benefit of those that are undecided, could you provide 15-20 diffs of good mainspace contributions? If you're correct that "There are lots of good edits in main namespace", this shouldn't take long. I think it's important to establish whether her good contributions were closer to "very few" or "lots". Carbonite | Talk 14:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. Green Berets created from a redirect
  2. Saint Hill [14] replaces link to the poor Google sattelite image with a better one.
  3. Black Mesa Research Facility [15] Cleans up article, adds a logo.
  4. Blue Blood, several good minor fixups, wikifications
  5. Latex clothing, [16] looks like a valid addition.
  6. Black Triangle, good and valid article created by MSK.
  7. Creates several useful redirects such as American Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts of the USA.
  8. Albert Einstein. reverts vandalism
  9. World citizen. [17] Provides images.
  10. Cloning. Minor fix, but a useful one.
  11. Christmas, [18] Good constructive edit, provides interesting history.
  12. List of punk cities, [19] Cleans up article.
  13. Macro virus (biology) Valid article created by MSK.
  14. Latex [20] Good expansion.
  15. Flogging Molly [21] Good expansion.
Hope that helps. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, after taking a look at those diffs and the ones on her talk page, I think we should send this to the ArbCom. If her behavior is poor during the case, an editing injunction might be in order. Carbonite | Talk 14:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Just someone is attacking someone you dislike does not mean that they're worth defending. I defend MSK because she was a valuable contributor, not for personal bias. Suggesting otherwise is a clear assumption of bad faith. I'm with Grue - cut the nonsense. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 20:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I think if we do unban her, she'd definitely need someone to follow her around, assign her to mentcom perhaps. NSLE (T+C) 09:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There's no need to unban her at all. Ambi 13:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There is clearly no consensus that she should be banned. Personally I would unblock her myself now, but I'm supposed to be on a Wikibreak and don't want to get involved. the wub "?!" RFR - a good idea? 14:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I am going to have to make myself unpopular with the people who are concerned with cutting the nonsense and side with Blu Aardvark here. I have looked through MSK's contributions list and she has several valid edits to the main article namespace, so I think saying that she only has five or so is highly inaccurate. I am not sure either that the ArbCom, present or future, would impose an indefinite ban. Even with highly disruptive and unpleasant users such as Irate, the ArbCom initially imposed a ban of three months only. MSK has vandalised once, but is not an indisputable vandal account like Willy on Wheels so an indefinite block for that reason seems unwarranted. MSK has engaged in edit-warring, but we don't impose indefinite bans for that, initially we enforce 3RR (done here, no complaint about that), and Arbcom penalty for that is typically imposing a 1 revert-limit or a ban from a certain type of article. There does not appear to be community consensus to support an indefinite ban either, considering that several respected users such as Aardvark, Evilphoenix and Grue are opposed to it. Disruption is what this indefinite block is based on, but if we look at the blocking policy: "blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of disruption from IP addresses nor against user accounts that make a mixture of disruptive and useful edits". The only thing here which I think would justify an indefinite block is if MSK is a sockpuppet of a banned user. That is possible but I cannot see that it is proven. In this case, I do think ArbCom review is warranted, clearly MSK has upset several users and caused quite a lot of disruption, but whether or not the disruption is serious enough to warrant an indefinite block is a decision which should not be made by a few admins only. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
MSK has made a list of some of her positive contributions here User_talk:Mistress_Selina_Kyle#A_list_of_some_positive_contributions. Arniep 14:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Re: The only thing here which I think would justify an indefinite block is if MSK is a sockpuppet of a banned user. That is possible but I cannot see that it is proven. -- I would like, once again, to draw attenntion to the (not-yet-addressed) fact that MSK has a mixture of instant hostility to me and an unwillingness to engage with me in even benign conversation. This despite our never having had any conflict whatsoever. Does this not suggest that there is a past history that took place under another username? BYT 15:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps. Who do you suspect she might be a sockpuppet of? Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Since you ask, I think she's User:Chaosfeary. Note [the first response to my post here], which was critical of a long-simmering pet project of Chaosfeary's. I've never had any problems with this person, and she moves instantly to name-calling. I've left about half-a-dozen comments on various pages for MSK since this, and she seems quite eager to steer clear of me. Odd? BYT 15:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Instant dislike? That could be evidence of sock-puppetry (though not neccessarily implying that the original account is blocked) or just general unpleasantness on the part of one or both of you. :] --CBD 15:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. MSK was against Slim Virgin in relation to her behaviour in the banning of User:Taxwoman and extended that towards her behaviour on other projects, which then led to her attacking of User:BrandonYusufToropov. Note that the ban of Taxwoman happened a long time before any attacks on BYT, and can be seen as an extension of her attacks on Slim Virgin. That being said, I would like to know who Chaosfeary was. He is NOT a banned user - but was someone who was given a few short term blocks, therefore even if she was a "sock puppet", then it is not grounds for a ban. However, I can see no evidence that they are the same person, and indeed User:Jayjg had already proven through CheckUser that they were not the same person, and I think that we should take this as given. Whilst it is obviously unfortunate that she didn't like BYT, I think that the issue should be what she said to BYT rather than any allegations of sock puppetry, which, in my opinion, is irrelevant anyway. Since MSK wasn't banned for anything she said to BYT, I think that BYT should perhaps present what she said to him. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 15:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
It's the very first response to the post I just cited. S/he called me an Islamist, a strangely familiar epithet coming as it did from someone who was supposedly new to the conversation. BYT 15:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think her calling you an islamist suggests that she knew you previously, just that she is anti-muslim. It looks like Chaosfeary is a friend of MSK as she left a message at the top of their user page User:Chaosfeary. Arniep 16:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I've asked TonySidaway to reconsider, as a number of people (myself included, based on what has been said here) don't seem to think the case for an indefinite block is sufficiently clear at this time, and it therefore either needs to be made more clearly (either here, or through RFC or RFAR) or replaced with some other measure (eg mentorship). Rd232 talk 22:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no dog in this fight; I reinstated a block, originally placed on the basis of known bad behavior over a protracted period and a checkuser report, that appeared to have been removed by one editor without any discernible discussion. I brought it here for review--a practise I have made with all blocks almost since my first actions as an administrator. I wouldn't presume to second guess the checkuser information and I have yet to see an adequate explanation of why this editor, supposedly at a British college, cannot simply edit Wikipedia from a direct connection. This isn't China. The user's pattern of extreme personal attacks since being blocked does not fill me with confidence in his or her willingness to edit Wikipedia. Nevertheless I would not oppose a considered unblocking on the understanding that any sign of this user continuing her attacks will result in reinstatement of the permanent block. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 00:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
in some UK Colleges Wikipedia is classified as chat so is blocked. Arniep 00:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Names of such institutions, please? Also, I'm amused by the claim that she's a member of Wikimedia UK, given that's not fully set up yet. I'd love to know what JamesF and Jguk have to sy about that. Not to mention David Gerard and Tony Sidaway who are, IIRC, also involved at some level. Rob Church (talk) 04:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
go to my talk page and find the link for a screenshot, do a search on the page for "photobucket": No I'm not telling you what college I'm going to, as I already said that was the reason for me using (try it yourself, I also said about this on my talk page but half the people posting here didn't seem to bother to read the huge discussions going on there) --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 13:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

She said she used the hosting service because she was scared someone would trace her to her college and cause her trouble. I think that's plausible enough. Tony, I don't see any "extreme personal attacks" frankly. A bit of mouthiness, that's all. Do you not think that a user who's been blocked permanently might feel hurt though? There's lots of editwarring on Wikipedia and lots of people talking to each other like shit, some of them "respected users". She's probably not quite clear that she's done anything much wrong. Why not unblock her, ask her to agree to a personal 1RR with a day off for each infringement and caution her not to mouth off at other editors? Surely that would be much more constructive than throwing the book at her? -- GN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Oh I've already indicated that I wouldn't oppose an unblock if she doesn't continue with her personal attacks--which, whatever you may say, were extremely inflammatory. She's been unblocked and I'm fine with that. I've tried to follow her instructions about "find the link for a screenshot, do a search on the page for "photobucket" but, alas, without success. If anyone could help out here, I'd be grateful.
In reply to Robchurch, I'm not a member of Wikimedia UK but I do know people who have attended preliminary meetings. As far as I'm aware nobody answering her description has done so--she could well be involved in Wikimedia in some way but if the extent of that is to put her name down on a wiki page or subscribe to a mailing list it's not really getting us any further in refuting the checkuser evidence.
Of course it's MSK's right to use an anonymizing proxy, and also being somewhat kinky myself I understand that she could plausibly be reluctant to give away any informtion that might lead to her being identified, but users who use such proxies to misbehave risk being blocked. It's best not to misbehave in the first place. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
RE: the link you can't find. Here is the link. It appears on MSK's talk page in the section "=(". --Tabor 23:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
That screenshot may or may not be genuine. It would be very easy to make such a thing in the simplest of paint programs. If it is legitimate, it would show that MSK is willing to circumvent the rules of her college, which may have some bearing on whether we think she will abide by the rules here. As for the involvement in Wikimedia UK, a look through her Talk page history shows that she has been invited to join, but she has also expressed some skepticism about joining if it means that she would have to give her true identity. [22]. Johntex\talk 23:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Do college IT departments really use such bad English? Comma splice, random capitalisation... Educational standards these days, really. Mark1 00:06, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome[edit]

I just saw that MSK was indefinitely blocked and came here to see if there has been any discussion about users with Asperger Syndrome. I stumbled into a revert war at Template:User Aspie and saw a telling comment. I'm copying the discussion here. I have not as yet gotten a reply to my comment. -- Samuel Wantman

You're telling an Aspie to stop being obsessive? Do you have any idea what the syndrome entails and what the primary symptom is? :p That is all. Rogue 9 23:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Should I know? Should I assume that an editor has a serious neurological condition, and tread carefully around them? I'm sorry, but I refuse to stare at the wheelchair, if you get my meaning. -- Ec5618 23:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't really know much about Aspies, but I have come accross a few of you here and there. The above note points out a problem I have been pondering, and for which I don't as yet have an answer. The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that it really isn't my role to figure this out, but rather is up to the Wikipedia Aspie community to address. While Aspies have made some wonderful contributions around here, I and others, have found some behavior to be very disruptive. There are some rules of behavior that have been reached by consensus by the community. Some of these rules, like assuming good faith, the three revert rule, no personal attacks, etc... are essential for the continued success of Wikipedia. It seems unreasonable to exempt some people from these rules because of a neurological condition. Instead, I hope the Aspie community could figure out a way to participate without being disruptive. I don't know what that is, but I'm willing to help out in whatever way I can to implement it. Perhaps some sort of mentoring situation is possible.
I was the first admin on the scene here yesterday, and my first reaction was to block everyone. It is not the first occasion that I have felt like blocking an Aspie and didn't. I believe in talking about things and trying to work them out first. It would be very unfortunate if these problems do not get addressed and many Aspies get permanently blocked. I hope that doesn't happen. -- Samuel Wantman 00:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question, there was a bit on the mailing list (wiken-l) a while back. I'll reply with more on your talk page. WhiteNight T | @ | C 08:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that discriminating against someone for a mental disorder is discrimination. Whilst each country has their own laws, I am sure that in USA such behaviour would be considered to be illegal, and it would also cover internet use. Whilst Wikipedia can legally ban or allow whoever they like, they cannot forbid someone entry on the basis of race, gender, religious preference, sexual preference, or mental disability. Pretty simple thing. Whilst you are entitled to treat her as if she did not have a disability, you are not entitled to consider this to be a factor warranting a ban. To do so may be illegal, and put the individual person doing the ban/discriminating and/or Wikipedia itself in to jeapordy for legal action. Just seriously not a good idea. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you've got this backwards. Please re-read my comments. I am trying to think of accomodations for the disability to help keep people from getting banned. I resisted blocking the revert war because I knew that AS has some compulsive behaviors related to it. Had I not tried to accomodate the AS I would have immediately blocked them. My comment was an outreach to try and think of a way Wikipedia can make accomodations. -- Samuel Wantman 02:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
No problems. I guess that I am a bit wary of people doing things like this. Going for equality really is important, and discrimination is an issue that needs to be considered. I mean we wouldn't ban someone for being muslim, would we? Or even for believing in Goat Cheese. But we might not like them pushing these views. I hope that you didn't think I was attacking anyone there. I just get very nervous when people talk about things like this, especially as at least a few people have commented in a way that suggests that they should be able to ban autistic people for being autistic. Quite simply, you can't. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 02:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Zordrac, please refrain from commenting on legal issues when you frankly have no clue what you're talking about. You're becoming as bad as Everyking - you comment first, then think and research later if we're lucky. Ambi 02:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
In fact, we can discriminate on any basis whatsoever; as a private entity receiving no governmental support, we are not bound by any nondiscrimination law whatsoever. Volunteer organizations are not required by law not to discriminate when selecting volunteers. Kelly Martin (talk) 07:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Could you clarify how being 501(c)(3) is "receiving no governmental support"? If I started "church of the white man" tomorrow, I would not receive tax exempt status. Avriette 20:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that I have ever seen a more obvious Wikipedia:No personal attacks than the one above by User:Ambi. I trust that you recognise Wikipedia policy with regards to such things. You should know it, after all.

I have no clue what I am talking about, do I? I dare you to prove me wrong. Because you won't be able to, you know. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist

I was simply noting that you hadn't read any of this discussion before launching into one of your predictable "fight the power" tirades. No one here was suggesting anything like banning people just because they had Asperger's syndrome, which you would have known had you read any more than the section title. Ambi 03:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The law (in the US) only applies to employers discriminating against employees anyway... the whole argument is silly. --W.marsh 06:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, (so sayeth the psychs) I've got Asperger's syndrome; however, I am of the distinct opinion that the behaviour demonstrated by MSK could not really be ascribed to that. Asperger's syndrome sufferers are widely held to have issues with social skils, with emotional development and integration happening late-on (or to an impared degree). Asperger's syndrome could not possibly be used as an excuse for some of MSK's vitriol, because quite frankly I am capable of restraining myself from her distinctly unpleasant mode of interaction. Although I do have my odd moment of difficulty in this area I could not see it being expressed in such a manner. I think Wikipedia needs to bear AS in mind, perhaps, but it is not by any means carte blanche to behave poorly. Indeed, to ascribe MSK's inability to behave in a civil and reasonable fashion to AS would be to do a great disservice to its sufferers. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

And everyone is affected to precisely the same degree as you are? To say that someone could not possibly be affected in a way you are not seems a rather extreme generalization of personal experience. --Tabor 03:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
As the father of a son with HFA I've grown familiar with the varying degrees of PDD and spectrum disorders. While it's true that all individuals with these disorders share the trait of poor or unusual social skills and vary in their abilities in this regard I would find it extremely hard to believe that one would actively seek out confrontation like MSK has. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen but if it has I've never heard of it. The typical reaction would be to shy away from such confrontations and occasionally fall into one by mistake. But, I'm not a shrink, I only deal with my son's issues day in and day out and explain this stuff to people almost daily! --Wgfinley 03:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Like Nicholas and MSK, I also have Asperger's, and he's right, it shouldn't be an excuse for rudeness or incivility. Indeed, despite my eccentric nature at times, i've done things that you wouldn't associate with someone with "social issues", such as running for public office, as well as the seeds of careers in heavily people orientated careers such as Journalism and Real Estate. Asperger's isn't an excuse.

However, Tabor's also right, it's different for everyone, especially for people like MSK, who not only has AS, but is also young, which usually exasperbates the misconceptions that are common between neurotypicals and those with AS. I'm not going to touch the block for the time being, because she needs to calm down anyway, but I hope there's some way we can make her realize that being a jerk to those she disagrees with isn't cool, because I don't think she does or feels that kindness won't work at this point with what's been going on during the past few weeks. karmafist 05:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

My understanding of autism is that it is a spectrum rather than just something specific. It is extraordinarily ill-defined, and in fact covers a wide range of different disorders. It is also one of the most poorly diagnosed syndromes imaginable. So saying that this is how one person behaves therefore all of the others must behave in the same way is wrong. The spectrum has an allowable set of behaviours in order to be considered to be autistic. Mistress Selina Kyle's behaviours comfortably fall within this spectrum. This does not mean that all autistics will exhibit these behaviours. It is probably less than 10% who would behave in a similar manner to MSK in similar circumstances.
As for the confrontation, no, Aspies aren't scared of confrontation. They misunderstand confrontation. What this means is that in school they will often be teased and take it literally, not realising that it is an attack on them. Similarly, they may tease others and not realise that there is anything wrong with it. This means that Aspies are regularly incorrectly believed to be "stirring up trouble" when in fact they are not. This is typical behaviour. And if you look at the allegations of MSK's "personal attacks" and "incivility", all of them fall comfortably within this boundary. MSK hasn't actually personally attacked anyone here, nor has she been incivil. What she has been is a typical Aspie.
That being said, her confronting Kelly Martin and Slim Virgin is not typical Aspie. That has nothing to do with her condition. That is because she felt that these people were corrupt and needed to be exposed. So if she is being criticised for trying to expose corruption, people should realise that her doing that had nothing to do with Asperger's Syndrome. She might have done it in a different way to others. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 04:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I fail to see the supposed abundance of unjustifiable personal attacks; she's simply blunt. This is to be expected, and I find it an admirable quality, though those with thin skins and a better ability to sift through bullshit tend to disagree with me. Be that as it may, despite my status as a plebe around here, I see no reason for an indefinite block. Presuming that she does indeed have Asperger's (unusual in a female, but it does happen and would explain her unusual behavior), then her only behavior which isn't almost inevitable in an Aspie (that is to say, conflicts of personality arising from failure to empathize, not from malice) is her crusade against perceived corruption among the admins, and that is not a blockable offense in itself, as much as any theoretical corrupt admins (or admins annoyed at being so investigated) might like it to be. What that speaks of to me is integrity and overzealousness, and God help us if either of those traits become bannable offenses. Rogue 9 08:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Outside comment[edit]

I think it should be noted that most "Aspies" are possibly self-diagnosed. The existence of a userbox makes this extremely easy. It is unfortunate that in this day, bad behavior is hidden behind a constructed disorder. We say a child has ADHD and administer pharmaceuticals instead of addressing the possibility that she lacks discipline. When the child grows up she can hide behind the label of an "Aspie" instead of dealing with the fact that she is a jerk. This is unconscionable. Even if someone has a legitimate though manageable disorder, it's the person's responsibility to deal with it instead of hiding behind it.

After reading Kelly Martin's comment on MSK's lack of quality editing and MSK's replies on her talk page, I decided to look into it myself. When I ran an edit count last night, I found that only 30% of this user's edits were on articles, images and associated talk pages. This means that 70% of this user's edits have nothing to do with developing the encyclopedia (unless you strongly believe that userboxes have extraordinary value to the project). Furthermore, if you remove talk pages, deleted edits, and vandalism from the statistics, her useful edits only amount to about 20%. --malber 14:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The dismissal of a diagnosis of any other user, cheapning it as "self diagnosis" is... Well, I'm at a loss for words, in that regard. Let's toss it in the "evil" bin. Secondly, I think some of you fail to understand the symptoms of Aspergers, or more correctly, the behavior of those so diagnosed. I don't particularly feel that the user went out of her way to confront anyone. As others have said, she is dedicated to producing articles and does contribute. It is when that is interfered with (this is commonly referred to as "hyper focus" in text on the subject -- see ISBN 0684801280 for more details), the user is left with very few coping skills. What you see is the result. Lastly, going after edit counts can be used on just about anyone. I recently examined the same statistics for NSLE. The reply was a juvenile "why don't you make me?" Let's leave the edit count out of this, and the deprecating of a person's psychological state as well. Avriette 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I've never "hidden" behind it and have never used it as an argument for anything so please don't start insulting me, especially making personal attacks like "instead of dealing with the fact that she is a jerk".
I think it's mostly irrelevant really. Not that it's any of your business at all but as you seem to want to accuse me of being "fake" or "covering up for myself", yes, it was done by a qualified psychiatrist/psychologist (I have no idea which but it was at an early age)
a minor point to Wgfinley, "father of a son with HFA" who finds "it extremely hard to believe" that I have asperger's because of basically 'not being shy enough': I'm tended to just not say anything with regards to your perhaps surprising bigotry, but there is nothing about aspergers that makes people "shy away from such confrontations" - maybe occasionally from social situations out of shyness but I know more as well as having it myself I probably know more people with aspergers than you and several I know have been expelled from several schools for standing up to bullies and getting in fights etc
malber (talk · contribs): On the other subject of "useful edits", you really are quite a venomous little man aren't you (don't quote NPA at me, you prick, you're already accusing me of "hiding behind my aspergers" and calling me a "jerk"..) - lies, damn lies and statistics: "I found that only 30% of this user's edits were on articles, images and associated talk pages. This means that 70%" - Sorry, community is not important at all now? And just because it's not an article/image edit doesn't mean it's automatically "userbox"? Ever heard of "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk:"? Sorry, but this is Wikipedia, not Britannica. We're not paid, we're not employed to edit here: If there was no community for Wikipedians to work together, no one would be editing.
Are we now judging wikipedians on the amount of editing they do and banning those who don't work hard enough? What is this turning into? --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 14:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT doesn't say Wikipedia isn't a gulag. If the community wants to ban you because they think your socks are smelly, then too bad. There's no such thing as an innate right to edit Wikipedia. (This is not to say that the community wants you gone; if they did, nobody would be protesting your block.) If it takes a gulag to build an encyclopedia, a gulag is what we're going to have. All other goals besides building an encyclopedia are secondary. Johnleemk | Talk 15:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Johnleemk, that's an incredibly frightening statement you just made. It almost sounds like you're saying this place is little more than a popularity contest, and you can be gone regardless of whatever contributions you've had. Basically, an ochlocracy. If that's the case, wait a second while I go contact the Crips and the Bloods... Karmafist 03:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Not really. Had you read my comment more closely, you would see the disclaimer: "This is not to say that the community wants you gone; if they did, nobody would be protesting your block." This (consensus/unanimity or something close to it) is pretty much the foundation of Wikipedia governance. I'm not advocating ochlocracy. I'm stating a basic fact; if nobody wants you around, you're gone. And besides, if this were an ochlocracy, we might have had fair use images on userpages a long time ago, regardless of their legality. If anything, I fear we're headed in the direction of such a form of governance. Johnleemk | Talk 14:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
This subconversation of a subconversation is meaningless then, since you're basically saying that the foundation of Wikipedia governance is ochlocracy. If anything, our current state of ochlocracy on here has acted towards witch hunts against users who use fair use for no apparent legal reasoning other than fear mongering. I hope one day to fix the problems here as well, my friend. Until then though, make sure that somebody "wants you around", and if you get any time after that, feel free to contribute to the encyclopedia... Karmafist 04:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Ochlocracy is not consensus. Consensus is the foundation of Wikipedian governance, although it's breaking down fast. If someone is strongly opposing a witch hunt, then there is no consensus, and as a result, no action should be taken until consensus is gained. That's the boon and bane of consensus, and if you want to see it in action, mosy on over to FAC or FARC, quite possibly the last two places on Wikipedia where consensus still rules. So you are plainly wrong. Under consensus the majority cannot overrule the minority. If nobody wants you around the encyclopedia (as in if a vote were to be held on whether you should be banned, every Wikipedian would say "yes"), maybe you should reconsider your behaviour or get the hell out. There is no innate right to edit Wikipedia. Johnleemk | Talk 17:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
It takes extreme vanity to assume I was talking about you. I was responding to Zordrac's suggestion that your behavior should be excused because you're a self labeled "Aspie." Asperger's seems to be one of those "bumper sticker" illnesses that people tend to publicize about themselves, like a special club. It's especially troubling that there's a userbox for Asperger's. If we take what Zordrac is suggesting, all a troll would have to do is slap that userbox on his userpage and all should be forgiven. This is troubling. If you want to throw around quotes, here's a good one.
I'm not even going to discuss your personal attacks. I think they speak for themselves. If you wish to regain the good graces of the admins, a little bit of humility and contrition would go a long way. Kelly Martin has a valid point. The ratio of encyclopedia building to "community building" is skewed. Indeed, if there is even the slightest impression that you've been disruptive, the idea that you've been building the community is dubious. --malber 15:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
*sigh* Normally I wouldn't dare enter these types of situations but after reading this and witnessing all the fighting and bias I'm afraid I have no choice. To those who seem to think Aspie's "hide behind our diseases" or "we use it as an excuse" is entirely untrue, pathetic, sickening and offensive to all who have this rotten disorder. Yes, I realise some of MSK's actions may not be due to AS, but for you people who are lucky enough not to experience this disorder firsthand I fail to see how you possibly have a good understanding about it. You should be considered lucky; I went undiagnosed for over 10 years and it's safe to say my life was a living hell back then. I would suggest reading Asperger Syndrome if you haven't already done so. I can say I have never had a bad experience with MSK and I wish the bias and personal attacks would all stop together. I thought Wikipedia was fair; apparently I was horribly misled. Fell free to use your bias and block me, however you will have one less member reverting vandalism. --Winter 16:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
This is really not the place for debating the merits of an Asperger Syndrome diagnosis, or whether or not this is a true neurological disorder. My response was regarding the idea that a user's disruptive behavior should be excused because of a possible self applied diagnosis. Anyone with a legitimately diagnosed disorder should be offended by this idea. Note that I'm not saying that every "aspie" behaves this way. --malber 16:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
And nothing says her diagnosis is self-applied except a gross assumption. I have the syndrome (and yes, it was professionally diagnosed by two separate psychiatrists) and can tell you that no one's saying she should be excused for her "bad behavior" because from where she's coming from there was no bad behavior in the first place. Her reactions were perfectly normal for an Aspie; if I was plunged into a situation where a lot of my work was suddenly deleted by an imperious admin going on about how I was a waste of space I'd be going off like a volcano because I frankly wouldn't know what else to do. Hell, that's not even being an Aspie; that's being human. Asperger's will simply make the reaction worse because it makes it difficult to understand what the other people want unless they come out and say it, which makes negotiation difficult to say the least. Rogue 9 04:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
It is an unfortunate result, then, that Asperger's Syndrome makes one rather less suitable for the project. Phil Sandifer 04:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
As does speedy deleting a redirect without justification in WP:CSD and recreating it half a dozen times. Karmafist 03:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Right, as does bringing in irrelevent material to slander and troll. Did you have a point? Phil Sandifer 17:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Did you when you did the same above in regards to those with AS? Karmafist 04:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to recommend for User:Snowspinner to be given a 1 week block for the above edit. It is EXTRAORDINARILY discriminatory.... --Zordrac
Blocks are not punitive. Please see Wikipedia:Blocking policy. --maru (talk) Contribs 03:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Then if I were to say what he so richly deserves to have said to him right now, I wouldn't be blocked as punishment for this? Somehow I doubt it. Rogue 9 05:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:No personal attacks. There is no consensus on permitting admins to block those who make personal attacks, and generally this only occurs in extreme cases where the one making the attack has proved unrepentant and refuses to stop making such personal attacks. Johnleemk | Talk 10:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's also note that it wasn't a personal attack. If you are actually incapable of avoiding going off like a volcano when Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are enforced, you should not edit Wikipedia. A compulsion to go off like a volcano makes you less suitable for the project. If Asperger's is why you have this compulsion, then Asperger's makes you less suitable. That's why it's a disorder - because it makes you unable to do things that healthy people can. That doesn't mean I don't sympathize. That doesn't mean I haven't winced when I've blocked people who obviously have Asperger's or some similar disorder. But it does mean that, well... if you can't play well with others, this is not the project for you. That's not a personal attack. That's just a really sad and unfortunate truth. Phil Sandifer 17:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm quite capable of avoiding exploding over enforcement of the rules; I'm talking about abuse of power like that which happened to MSK's work in the userbox project. What's said below about Asperger's patients working better with structured rules is true; what's also true is that breaking those rules in an unpredictable manner is upsetting because we expect those rules to be followed by everyone. Try to look at this from Selina's point of view; from where she was sitting, Kelly Martin just swooped in and, ignoring every possible policy on the matter, unilaterally deleted a large body of her work while simultaneously expressing utmost contempt for not only her but everyone she worked with on the project. This is upsetting to anyone; having a disorder that makes it difficult to cope with sudden change and unpredictable situations makes it worse. Oh, and I didn't accuse you of a personal attack; I was attempting to avoid making one myself, because the rules make no allowance for insults thoroughly earned.
Anyhow, now that I'm calmer, I will address Snowspinner's profoundly ignorant remark concerning Aspergians and suitability for Wikipedia. (If one will pay attention to the subject of that sentence, it was what Snowspinner said, not Snowspinner himself. Don't try to whip out NPA at me.) I contend that having Asperger's makes one more suitable for the project than your average neurotypical, not less. The penchant for almost obsessively gathering and sharing information is the most obvious benefit to a repository of knowledge such as this, of course, but it's hardly the only thing. The same mania for organization that makes dealing with (too often inconsistent) people so infuriating makes one fact-check and organize to no end, as well as spell-check to no end for that matter. We're able to focus on a problem or subject with an intensity that most others simply don't believe; as an example, I once read through Robinson Crusoe in a span of two hours and ten minutes at the age of eleven. Repetitive tasks such as checking through articles one after the other for spelling errors are easy for an Aspergian. Frankly, if everyone on Wikipedia had Asperger's, the project would be a whole lot better off, even though a lot of the editors wouldn't. :p That is, of course, too much to ask for, and I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone, but the point is that problems occur when we're interfered with, not when left alone to work on articles or whatever else one of us chooses to work on. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go clean up the article on Characters of 8-Bit Theater; the spelling and grammar is atrocious. Rogue 9 05:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia rules apply to everyone[edit]

I would like to present, off the top of my head, some practical information about working with people that have Asperger Syndrome and about disruptive behavior as alleged above.

  • The rules apply to everyone. Disruptive behavior is not to be tolerated. I should add that it is quite uncommon among Aspies, and ascribing it to their having Asperger Syndrome is unwarranted in virtually all cases. And even if one does ascribe it to AS, the remedy remains the same. Explain, point out rules, be civil, assume good faith - be a good wikipedian and it doesn't matter whom you are trying to correct. Stay cool. Blocking and problem resolution as usual.
  • Asperger Syndrome is much more pronounced in children. Like other children, Aspies learn to adapt to the differences between them and the rest of the world (since the rest of the world won't adapt to the differences). It takes them longer and is more difficult, but in the end many do not really stand out from the crowd in day-to-day communications. It means that, probably even more than regular teenagers and adolescents, Aspies can be expected to improve their behavior given time, and getting a new chance after six months or so should always be negotiable. And since we're building an encyclopedia, it would be a pity if Wikipedia unnecessarily lost the contributions from - often quite intelligent - people with a knack for gathering facts and a far more than encyclopedic knowledge of specialist subjects.
  • As to being "wheelchair friendly" - Wikipedia is all that and more. Most Aspies do not have a problem with rules per se; in fact it is almost a defining symptom that they fare better in a well structured environment with clear rules. The absense of eye contact and body language when co-operating via the Internet solves any remaining sources of miscommunication so in fact Wikipedia and Aspies are a well-suited combination.  AvB ÷ talk 08:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I find this comforting, if beside the point - I don't think anyone here is arguing that we ought ban Aspies. Rather, I think people are saying that whether someone is an Aspie should be wholly irrelevent to whether or not we ought ban them. If being an Aspie does not lead one to behavior that would get one banned, this makes that question comfortingly academic, but it instead opens the nasty can of worms as to whether the self-diagnoses are accurate or not, etc, which remains a messy subject. Cleaner, I think, to just note that the basic rules of conduct apply, and that, for the purposes of enforcement of those rules, we don't really care why someone is incapable of following them. Phil Sandifer 17:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I could not have said it better myself. --malber 21:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Phil, it's good to see you think what I wrote is comforting. But beside the point? I think most of this Asperger Syndrome section is beside the point (the point being an assessment of MSK's conduct, which I haven't even looked at). I argued that Wikipedia should not give Aspies preferential treatment. One of my reasons for posting the above was your assertion (which could well lead to the opposite of preferential treatment) "that Asperger's Syndrome makes one rather less suitable for the project". I was hoping you would retract it, or provide us with supporting facts and statistics. Anyway, seeing that you support my main line of reasoning (no special treatment on Wikipedia) takes away most of the doubt your assertion had raised in my mind. AvB ÷ talk 14:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Dschor claims that all third party edits to his user page are vandalism[edit]

Dschor appears to have decided that his userpage deserves the same protection from outside editing as a geocities account. As a result he has accused other users who've made simple changes of vandalizing his page. He has since equipped his userpage with a notice which claims that edits made without his authorization are vandalism. Can someone else please ask him to go get a free web account someplace if he is interested in maintaining a personal web presence? --Gmaxwell 07:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

My opinion? He can presume that all he wants. However, I would avoid editing it unless necessary (as I do with all user pages) but simply reading Wikipedia:User page will tell you they are community space. gren グレン 07:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
He's just mad because I edited his user page. He needs to grow a sense of humor or something. Kelly Martin (talk) 07:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Uh oh, he's changed tack :) [23] --Interiot 08:57, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I also edited his userspace to change a flag, i'll see what he says. Zach (Smack Back) Fair use policy 07:55, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:User page:"by convention your user page will usually not be edited by others." Crystal clear: it's a convention, but only a convention. Dschor can (foolishly or otherwise) presume what he likes about people who breach it. Rd232 talk 17:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

People shouldn't be editing someone else's user page unless there is a very good reason for it. I will check out the edits and comment further. But please be a bit nicer to him about it. He is clearly assuming that Wikipedia runs in a way that places like Geocities/LiveJournal etc work, and that your user page belongs to you. It is a reasonable assumption to make. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 01:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay I checked it and User:Snowspinner has been making misleading edit summaries, stating incorrectly that he was removing text because it was a personal attack, when there was none on there. Really, there was nothing wrong with Dschor's version, so let's just leave it be. It's just very petty to go around changing people's user pages for these kinds of reasons. Get rid of personal attacks by all means, but not opinions. We might call it vandalism if you do edit his user page like that, and with good reason. So please stop. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 01:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Snowspinner has made one edit, with the remarkably accurate summary: "Reverted edits by User:Dschor (talk) to last version by User:Tony Sidaway". Tony made the changes you refer to, and I'm curious why you didn't discuss things with him before acting. Questions of intent and civility aside, you need only look at Dschor's talk page for your comment:

Obviously stating that you oppose Kelly Martin for ArbCom is not a personal attack. However, perhaps you should not include "Beware the Cabal".

And Tony's above that:

Secondly, while your stated opposition to Kelly Martin was probably okay, the allegation that she is a member of some Cabal is an attack and we don't allow personal attacks. I've removed it for now; please feel free to restore minus the attack. see your thinking is along closer lines than you might suspect. Maybe before attempting to set Dschor's expectations regarding his User page, you should reach a consensus here first. I'm sure Dschor doesn't feel like being the subject of a wheel war. InkSplotch(talk) 03:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, I am getting tired of fighting this type of vandalism on my page. I never stated that Kelly is a member of a cabal, but I did notice the prominent display of an "I love the cabal" image on her user page. Seemed like a harmless reference to her own stated affection. I assume good faith, but I ask that you please notify me before making significant changes to my user page. It's simply the polite thing to do. --Dschor 10:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Vandalism suggests malicious intent. I don't see that here, but I'm only a neutral party. What I see is a difference of opinion on two counts: should Users (such as yourself) be allowed to reserve edit rights to their User page, and was the "cabal" comment a personal attack. While consensus doesn't seem too firm yet, it doesn't seem to be going your way at the moment. I'd ask you consider the comments above about User pages and community space. I'd also suggest that Kelly Martin's original edit, regardless of it's factual accuracy, was a good faith edit and not a personal attack or attempted vandalism. Use of the word "cabal" would probably be best dropped by all sides.
To others, I'd like to echo Zordrac's comments about " a bit nicer...about it." Dschor might be making a test case here over User rights to their User Pages, but poking at him to see how he reacts ("I also edited his userspace to change a flag, i'll see what he says.") isn't going to help all of you reach a stronger consensus, or Dschor to be more amicable to your position. InkSplotch(talk) 14:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
m Signing my comments, now that I have an account to do so. InkSplotch(talk) 14:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Not to be picky, but the heading for this section does not reflect any statement that I have made, and is a straw man created to distract the casual observer from the fact that Administrators are taking their POV and inserting it into a user page against that user's strenuous objections. I do not claim unique rights to edit my user page, but in the interests of accuracy, I cannot permit editors to remove my own opinion, or insert their own. I do not doubt that Kelly felt she was doing a service in adding her name to my user page, but her failure to revert upon my request was not appropriate, particularly considering that my account was blocked during her edit. There are many other users who use the same travel brag sheet, and as far as I know Kelly made no effort to add her name to their pages. I did not have any notice advising users to clear changes with me, because I assume good faith. Unfortunately a number of edits have been made to my user page that show a pattern of aggression toward free expression. I believe I have the right not to have my opinion distorted or deleted so long as I follow the guidelines for user space on Wikipedia. I consider this matter closed, and expect that editors will respect my user page, and refrain from edits that do not improve it. Thanks for your attention. --Dschor 12:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't have any property rights here except accurate attribution and licensing of your contributions. If you want a homepage, go and find a webhost. Your userpage can and will be edited by other people and you are not justified in presuming malicious intent. In particular, you must refrain from making personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: after reflection on this, I have edited Wikipedia:User page to see if I can reach a more realistic description of what the userpage means to Wikipedians. It really isn't on to say you'll presume that people who edit your user page mean harm. This is a wiki. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
My user page is intended to be a description of me, not a place for editors to add their own false claims and opinions. It can and will be edited by other people, but if they don't make improvements, then I will revert their edits. I do not presume that all people who edit my user page mean harm, but I reserve the right to make the determination on my own terms. I like to think this is a wiki, but when I observe admins speedy deleting the contributions of others for no reason, I have to wonder. And when admins come to my user page to make counterfactual edits while I am blocked, I presume that this is vandalism, and revert it. --Dschor 02:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Inexhaustible vandalism from the UK Internet for Learning: range block warranted?[edit]

Explanation: I'm bringing the following out of the archive to discuss the returned vandalism by the IP block range owned by UK Internet for Learning. The following is my note on the vandalism to User:Demi:

I have just stumbled on your research at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive54#Recent_activity while trying to find out what has or can be done to deal with the massive amount of vandalism coming from the IP block - (owned by Research Machines/IFL up to, though no vandalism seems to be coming from the rest) which is the network for a school or several schools in the UK. You originally suggested that users be blocked individually for a few hours at a time. The vandalism seems to have died down during the holiday break but now is coming back in full force (except for the weekends). In particular, there have been some especially nasty edits like subtle word changes (bonds to bondage on Three Gorges Dam) and numerical changes (33% to 37% on Asch conformity experiments) that weren't caught for days and that I only caught because I was checking for vandalism from these users. This is in addition to countless incidents of blanking and childish vandalism, dozens happening just today (the 10th) during school hours.
Most of these IP addresses have been blocked 5-15 times, and it doesn't seem to be doing the trick. In fact, the vandals probably don't even notice they have been blocked most of the time. I propose blocking anonymouse users from the whole set (about .5 - .45) indefinitely, and allowing only valid user accounts (there is at least one administrator who accesses his user account from this range). Is this possible? I would hate to see dozens of people working hours each day to chase down and revert the changes these IP addresses make, not to mention the many harmful edits that might make it through unnoticed.
...It seems to me it is not worth the effort to continually warn, re-warn, block temporarily, and repeat. There must be a better way...

And following is User:Demi's response:

(copied from talk page)
You wrote:
I propose blocking anonymouse users from the whole set (about .5 - .45) indefinitely, and allowing only valid user accounts (there is at least one administrator who accesses his user account from this range). Is this possible?
Unfortunately it is not. When an IP range is blocked all edits from the range are blocked, including editors with user accounts. I was on the fence before about blocking the whole range, the fact that there is an admin editing from the range as well as an increase in vandalism. I would like other people's attention--would it be possible for you to copy the discussion out of the archive and bring it up on WP:AN/I again? Thanks so much for looking into it. Demi T/C 23:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This vandalism has occurred again extensively today (the 11th) in many IPs (I am only up to .13, from .5). Also of note is this instance in which (now blocked for 31 hours) blanked a page and added "I will not stop until all IPs are not able to edit Wikipedia."

What can be done? This is extremely harmful to Wikipedia - who knows how much vandalism is slipping through the cracks? --Renesis13 15:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: I have just completed a check for vandalism from this range today. There are 19 IPs involved:
4 - 13
36 - 38
40 - 45
All vandalism from today has been reverted I believe. Now that school is out, we have about 18 hours before it starts again.
-- Renesis13 16:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I sent an email to ifl abuse yesterday on this subject matter and so far have received only an automated response. I did note in my email that their entire connection to Wikipedia might be blocked if they didn't deal with the vandalism. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

They appear to be all proxies.

PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.
PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.
PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.

etc. All the way up to webcache-25 ( Sometimes packets come back from ( with Packet filtered. Don't know if this helps in any way. - FrancisTyers 17:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Guessing from the name of this host and a traceroute, I'd say that the thing that is filtering the pings is one of their external gateways in telehouse. Of course this is pure conjecture. - FrancisTyers 20:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've blocked ( - for 24 hours--because I'd like to give the abuse desk a chance to respond to Zoe. These 64 addresses are tighter than the 512 that were blocked before; we can hope this is the correct suballocation. Demi T/C 23:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I still have received no response from them. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
RM aren't, in my experience, the most competent, nor the most helpful educational IT provider out there, and the South West Grid for Learning is a joke at times. You might not get one. Rob Church (talk) 04:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

From Archive[edit]

These IPs (and surely others that I haven't come across, and indeed the whole range) are registered to the UK Internet for Learning, according to notes on several of the talkpages:

From them flows a steady, deep, inexhaustible river of childish vandalism into the encyclopedia. After quite some time spent sampling, I haven't found one single good edit from any of them, though I can't swear that one isn't hiding out somewhere, obviously. All the warnings posted on all the talkpages by all the ambitious Wikipedians have an air of pathos, if you read them all together. Don't we have enough to do? If the range is indeed static, and the sole purview of enthusiastically scrawling children, can it be blocked wholesale, by someone who understands the art of range blocking? Or can somebody who's better than me at navigating the intarweb find their way to someone in a position of responsibility at the UK Internet for Learning? Or, does anybody have any other suggestions? Please? --Bishonen | talk 17:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

My thought is to block all of these and then wait for some feedback from any legitimate users. It seems to be a network which would go to all primary schools in the UK when it is built out. Fred Bauder 17:14, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
From whois "All abuse reports should be sent to abuse at Fred Bauder 17:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
There may be a handful of good edits in there - see the recent [24] by User: Which is not to say that I object to massive blockage. FreplySpang (talk) 17:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Further to Fred Bauder, the whois indicates that Research Machines have sub-allocated to --GraemeL (talk) 17:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Ahh... I ... see. (Not.) Could somebody get on it, please? Bishonen | talk 18:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
See Classless Inter-Domain Routing. is a range of 512 IP addresses from to It's also the format that you use for range blocking on the block page. Personally, I would like to see a greater consensus here before we take action to indef block such a large range. --GraemeL (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Do it. Just make sure the blocking admin has an email set and send a complaint at the same time.Geni 18:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, I blocked indefinitely. I sent an email to their abuse desk advising them of the block and the reasons that it was implemented. I also asked them if they subnet in any way that would enable us to reduce the size of the block and if they had any additional comments. --GraemeL (talk) 19:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 :-) Outstanding. Thanks! Bishonen | talk 00:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Make sure that indefinitely means indefinitely and not infinitely! Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 05:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm uncomfortable about potentially blocking every primary school in the country. It seems horrific. Secretlondon 16:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that 18 IP addresses cover every primary school in the country. I think that was a misconjecture on someone's part during the above research. In any case, I see no problem with blocking editing from a set of IP addresses which contribute 99% vandalism, including dozens of incidents per day. If these IP addresses are only used by schools, then I assume anyone with good intent would still have other opportunities (home/work) to contribute meaningful content. --Renesis13 21:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it would probably only effect users accessing through the South West Grid for Learning. - FrancisTyers 21:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Just a comment... primary school is quite young. I have a child at one. I'm rather doubtful that a school would encourage children to edit wiki anyway... they tend to be sensitive to possible exposure to naughty things. So for a school to lose write access would probably be no big thing... though this is a guess. William M. Connolley 13:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC).
The X grid for learning aren't just for primary schools, but for secondary schools aswell. I doubt highly that the vandals are primary school pupils. I don't know what primary school is like now, but I'm doubtful as to whether, 1. the kids would have much unsupervised time on the internet, 2. that internet would not be a walled garden or something similar. It's been a while since I was in the school system though ;) - FrancisTyers 16:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Collateral damage[edit]

I received an email indicating that this block is also affecting some libraries in the UK. I still haven't heard back from the ISP and I asked the user that mailed me to try and get the IPs of the library computers to see if I can work round that range with the block. Is this worth maintaining if we're going to cause collateral damage? --GraemeL (talk) 19:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds promising. They must divide that block of addresses up. Fred Bauder 20:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If we can get the library range (i.e. if the vandal fonts are, indeed, static), we can except them, but we need to be aware of the fact that libraries may be one of the sites of vandalism, and the only thing denied them now is the ability to edit. We're still good for researching on. The amount of spew the range was producing was truly staggering. Geogre 14:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm taking a wikibreak, so I removed the block on this range. Feel free to re-block it. --GraemeL (talk) 23:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Recent activity[edit]

In order to try to get a handle on what these folks have been up to, I've documented the contributions from all the IP addresses in this range (addresses with no contributions are not shown):

Activity since 1 Dec
Address Vandalisms Other [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] (revert) [63] [64] (revert) [65] (revert) [66] (revert) [67] (revert) [68] (revert) [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] (questionable) [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] [89] (revert) [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] (new) [104] [105] [106] [107] [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] (revert) [113] [114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] (revert) [124] (revert) [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135]

The "other" edits are good-faith attempts to create content, or at least, aren't clear vandalism (some of them have been reverted, some have not). Many of them are reversions of other edits from this range. The overall pattern seems to me that of schoolkids teasing each other using Wikipedia, and some other people (older students?) reverting them and sometimes adding content. The vandalism seems to come in short spates, and I'm guessing the IPs might correspond to workstations in a computer lab or school library. My gut feeling is not to re-block the IP range, but since the vandalism doesn't come very fast, to block the individual IPs as needed for short periods (but without separate warning). Demi T/C 08:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


This is probably one situation where a "stalk" feature might be useful (i.e. the ability to watch a user and show all edits by that user on your watchlist, instead of just watching a set of articles). --cesarb 19:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It is easy enough to place a link to a user's list of contributions on your user page or a page in your user space. You cna then visit that list any time. it is not integrated with your regualr watch list, but it fulfills the purpsoe pretty well. i have such a link on my user talk page right now. DES (talk) 21:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The integration is the key part, as if you want to watch 20 users you'd need to open 20 tabs. --cesarb 22:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment from Celestianpower[edit]

Sorry for the new section but I don't know where to put this. This is the IP address of my school's network so if it's blocked indef, I'll never be able to edit at school again. Am I allowed to unblock temporarily so I can edit, then reblock (like I have right now)? --Celestianpower háblame 16:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, if the block is not directed at you (i.e. you are an innocent bystander who was hit as a side effect), you can unblock. --cesarb 19:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I support this interpretation. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 19:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Good, then I support the permenant blocking of this IP. --Celestianpower háblame 19:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
When you say "this IP"--do you have a specific IP that you always get? Maybe we can block the others. 64 addresses isn't too much to block individually if necessary to make an exception for legit users. Demi T/C 20:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I meant "these IPs". Sorry. I usually come up with and .9 but I'm sure its different in the various rooms around the school. --Celestianpower háblame 20:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to leave the block for a week or so so that the users who have been adding vandalism in the past get used to not being able to edit? Then you could probably go ahead with unblocking for yourself without much risk of anyone trying to vandalize while its open. Another option is the 19 IPs that have contributed from that range could be blocked individually, and then you could unblock one at a time for whichever you come up with. Just a thought. -- Renesis13 06:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I will only be unblocking briefly to make a few edits then reblocking, so no more vandalism should come out. Also, I plan to do this mainly out of school hours to reduce the risk. --Celestianpower háblame 09:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I recieved this on my talkpage and thought it best to reply here:

Hey man, first of all, do you have access to "Internet preferences" ? Tools->options in Firefox, Tools->internet options in IE. If you do, you could try changing the proxy settings to just one of those IPs (its probably currently a round-robin) and then use that one and block all the others. If it is only set to one IP, this is probably some kind of local proxy that makes requests to a round-robin of upstream proxies. In this case, you can still try and make direct requests to the upstream proxies, but I don't know if it will work. Is your sysadmin a reasonable (and non-braindead) guy? You could ask him about it. If all else fails I can set you up some kind of HTTP/HTTP proxy. If you have no idea what I just wrote and you think you might be interested in it, feel free to email me. - FrancisTyers 10:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
First, no. I have no access to that. Second, no idea what on earth you're talking about ;). Third, he is, but he is so stressed at the moment with the huge problems with his new servers. It'll be a while before I can talk to him about it. Fourthly, sounds interesting - what does it entail? --Celestianpower háblame 09:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll respond to your talk page ;) - FrancisTyers 17:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Anons bad, logged-in users not[edit]

I've been chasing a troll through this range and just chatted on IRC with Celestianpower about it. What I'm seeing (from checkuser on various /24 segments) is that anon edits from it are mostly crap while logged-in edits are less so. If we ever get anywhere on bug 550 or similar bugs, then this would be a prime example of an IP range helped by it - David Gerard 00:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

New bans placed on Huaiwei and Instantnood[edit]

I have banned both Huaiwei and Instantnood from Char siu, List of railways in China, and Guangshen Railway for the duration of their probation periods. They have continued sterile edit wars, despite all of the warnings and previous bans. Earlier up on this page I said I would unprotect Guangshen Railway and ban them if they restarted the edit war (ie, protection is a means to allow dispute resolution to take place, but here we can enforce an end to the edit war without it), and it has restarted, even after the latest ban yesterday (above). I find almost no productive edits, just continued alterations of wordings and format, back and forth, with snippy unproductive edit summaries, and little or no discussion of reverts on talk pages (since they already thoroughly know what the other will say). In fact, I'm sure there are other articles where they are doing the same thing, and I hope this will send some kind of a message. I urge admins to take a look at this situation and scrutinize their edit wars, as it's been going on entirely too long. This action is, of course, up for review. Dmcdevit·t 00:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

And Another....[edit]

They don't seem to want to stop, I have now added Queensway to the growing list. It's sad really, it's a pretty innocuous disambig page but there had to be a Queensway in Hong Kong so of course the Huaiwei and Instant battle had to be carried there. --Wgfinley 02:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

There is now a log to record bans annd blocks in this case. Please add yours. Dmcdevit·t 05:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, good idea, I have done so. I also did a 24 hr block on Instantnood for this edit [136] on Char siu, he "turned himself in" and apologized on my talk page, saying he didn't realize he was banned from that one [137] so I made the block for 24 hrs as opposed to the 48 for Huaiwei. I still thought it merited a block for him to consider reviewing the articles he's being banned from. --Wgfinley 19:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Still More[edit]

I added another this evening, List of cities in China is now also on the list. I was hopeful banning on a few articles and the blocks would send the message, I'm starting to grow concerned that it is not and more serious measures will be needed. --Wgfinley 10:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Barbecued pork with rice was added for Huaiwei, I protected and requested the parties to sort it out on talk. Huaiwei indicated he was more interested in what happened in other articles, this is de facto edit warring to me so I banned him from the page. --Wgfinley 01:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I strongly protests this action on the part of Wgfinley. That was a discussion page, not the article page, and using my comments here as basis for a page ban is sending a message to everyone that perhaps all of us should stop using discussion pages least they be used as basis for administrative actions which are not fought over in the article itself? And I find it absolutely ridiculous for Wgfinley to say that I appear "much more interesting in bringing up other arguments and other articles without any reference to this one.", when the conversation he refers to was ignited by comments made by instantnood [138], which included the words "A similar debate is around the Singapore-centric set up of the bakkwa article (see talk:bakkwa)" That he considers this evidence of "edit warring" on my part alone is completely baseless. Impartiality on the part of Wgfinley is sorely missed here, and I am inclined to think he is also reacting based on discussions taking place in User talk:Huaiwei.--Huaiwei 02:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Supreme court[edit]

These two are battling over the designation of Hong Kong in ths list. What is the procedure for stopping them editing specific articles? --TimPope 20:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right, that one was blatant and obvious, I have banned them both now from that article. Contact and admin to evaluate and see if they are violating their probation, that one is a no-brainer. --Wgfinley 04:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, one wonders where those two will go to next... --TimPope 17:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust denial?[edit]

Does Wikipedia have a clear stance with reference to Holocaust denial? I ask because of the conversation now going on at Talk:Budapest#Please delete Holocaust promotion from Budapest page. Frankly, it is straining my limits to stay within the bounds of civility there. It is possible that I am misreading the remarks by Bloblaw, but it reads to me as if, besides questioning the mention of the Holocaust in this particular article, he is saying that it is POV to make an unqualified assertion that the Holocaust occurred. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I left a note on the article talkpage. As for the more general issue, I don't think any opinions should be verboten in Wikipedia. Someone can think that Santa Claus or Xenu is real, that the moon landing was a hoax, or that the holocaust is a fabrication. What they cannot do is force these opinions into articles over the objection of a consensus of editors citing reliable sources. But we don't need a special stance for holocaust denial. Babajobu 07:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
We don't need a special stance, but we shouldn't let fringe groups influence content in a wide range of unrelated articles. For instance, WTC conspiracy theorists have tried to rewrite conservation of energy to express the belief that the release of energy during the building collapse "disproves" the laws of physics. I see this as similar to a holocaust denier attempting to influen