Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive728

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Disruptive editing by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz

This user has been consistantly editing entries I have made on a number of pages and has made no attempt to engage with me directly to address any concerns he may have about the fact based information I am adding. I believe a disturbing pattern of behaviour has emerged here and indeed his talk page provides examples of other complaints against his disruptive behaviour. Here are examples of his disruptive edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration&diff=prev&oldid=461335026 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Blood_Transfusion_Service&diff=prev&oldid=461125594 I request that this user be investigated. Many Thanks.

  • This must be a request by or on behalf of PinkPolitico80 (talk · contribs). If was stuck in here properly it's from around 17 November 2011 and hasn't gained any traction. BTW, I do understand the editor's impatience, waiting for Hullaballoo to explain themselves on the talk page of Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration--but that's not really a matter for administrators right now. Drmies (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Vituzzu vs Spam

Hello,


I would like to bring to your attention a problem with an Italian Administator, Vituzzu : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vituzzu

He is keeping deleting all posts made by a group of sport fans who contact sport fanatics asking them if they are interested in an international forum about Olympic sports (completely non profit and totally free) that is absolutely not a Wikipedia's competitor.


He considers it spam and we don't, anyway even if whole Wikipedia considers it too, this doesn't justify what he started doing for some days.

As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biodin#Vietnam he started telling users that they will be FORCED to SPAM the forum on wikipedia.

That's absolutely false and that's a heavy damage against the forum.

Contact single users asking them if they would be interested in the forum could be considered spam (at least for Vituzzu) but that's a defamation and we really hope some decisions will be taken about that to stop him with his actions to damage Totallympics reputation.

Hope to receive good news.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.161.224.5 (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

He's right. You're wrong. Stop. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 00:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Third opinion, just as you were informed here User talk:Smartse#Problem with an Administrator, please dont spam unsolicited material about your forum on Wikipedia. Heiro 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
You have been told countless times, by numerous different editors, that your contributions are spam and unwanted, yet you keep coming back under different account names and different IP addresses attempting to evade your various blocks. You know that sockpuppets aren't permitted on Wikipedia. Please desist. - David Biddulph (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I have blacklisted the domain on the English Wikipedia per the long term abuse. WilliamH (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
And the boomerang spins on round and round...I see the D-word (defamation) in that OP too. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, these domains were blacklisted globally a few months ago. It's still a WP:BOOMERANG as these posts will be used as reasons to summarily reject any future delisting requests. MER-C 10:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm trying to find out why the fact that he's an admin on the Italian Wikipedia makes it into the OP's rationale ... "welcome to the English Wikipedia". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"Logic and reason, m'boy...logic and reason." I forget where I first saw that used in this ironic context...but it fits so well...in unfortunatly far too many places. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Here my rectification according Italian and international Law, by forcing I meant asking them regardless of anything, it was just a clear fault of me.--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
FYI plus a lot of emails sent via Wikipedia and some legal threats to me and childish trolling... is getting quite boring...--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't expect that they would follow my advice and come here. If there's anyone around who can set up edit filters, can you create one to stop totallympics being added? AFAIK it's the only way to deal with spam once people stop posting it as actual links. (I'll post a request here too in a moment.) SmartSE (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually I can create a filter but this will probably bring our spammers to change target, to me we need a radical solution. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


You can do whatever you want as I'm not even the owner of the site, but you have already threaten to lock someone's email and internet connection and I'm still waiting for that. It was also interesting to see how these messages just disappeared few hours later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.33.125.137 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Writing from a different provider? ROTFL. Tempo al tempo trolluzzo mio :D --Vituzzu (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


So should I be scared that my mail, provider and the forum will be closed as you promised ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.156.178.11 (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I spy, with my little eye, something that begins with "C"...oh, it's a WP:COMPETENCE issue. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

90.196.241.238

Does 90.196.241.238 (talk · contribs) look familiar to anyone? They seem to me to be a returning nationalist POV warrior who's familiar with Vintagekits; they've been altering nationalities on British-related bios and have made the extraordinary claim that they're fighting a kind of war, and so are justified in edit-warring. They seem to believe that sufficient bluster will be a smokescreen for their activities. See my talkpage for a sample: [1], [2] and [3]. I've blocked them for a week for edit-warring with intent on Amir Khan. Full disclosure: I did revert once there, but self-reverted. Acroterion (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PowerSane/Archive. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I was pretty sure they were no stranger to SPI. Acroterion (talk) 04:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

legal threat

WP:LEGAL violation in this edit. Is he/she telling the truth? Wasbeer 04:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

  • IP blocked for 1 year per WP:NLT and the try-not-to-indef-IPs guideline. Up to others to determine the validity of the threat. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Given that some of the content they claim was "stolen from a legit website" is referenced, to multiple sources, I'm inclined to think it's likely not truthful (plus "legit website" is a somewhat...odd phrasing.) - The Bushranger One ping only 05:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Wasbeer 05:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz

This user has been consistantly editing entries I have made on a number of pages and has made no attempt to engage with me directly to address any concerns he may have about the fact based information I am adding. I believe a disturbing pattern of behaviour has emerged here and indeed his talk page provides examples of other complaints against his disruptive behaviour. Here are examples of his disruptive edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration&diff=prev&oldid=461335026 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Blood_Transfusion_Service&diff=prev&oldid=461125594 I request that this user be investigated. Many Thanks.

  • This must be a request by or on behalf of PinkPolitico80 (talk · contribs). If was stuck in here properly it's from around 17 November 2011 and hasn't gained any traction. BTW, I do understand the editor's impatience, waiting for Hullaballoo to explain themselves on the talk page of Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration--but that's not really a matter for administrators right now. Drmies (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Vituzzu vs Spam

Hello,


I would like to bring to your attention a problem with an Italian Administator, Vituzzu : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vituzzu

He is keeping deleting all posts made by a group of sport fans who contact sport fanatics asking them if they are interested in an international forum about Olympic sports (completely non profit and totally free) that is absolutely not a Wikipedia's competitor.


He considers it spam and we don't, anyway even if whole Wikipedia considers it too, this doesn't justify what he started doing for some days.

As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biodin#Vietnam he started telling users that they will be FORCED to SPAM the forum on wikipedia.

That's absolutely false and that's a heavy damage against the forum.

Contact single users asking them if they would be interested in the forum could be considered spam (at least for Vituzzu) but that's a defamation and we really hope some decisions will be taken about that to stop him with his actions to damage Totallympics reputation.

Hope to receive good news.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.161.224.5 (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

He's right. You're wrong. Stop. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 00:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Third opinion, just as you were informed here User talk:Smartse#Problem with an Administrator, please dont spam unsolicited material about your forum on Wikipedia. Heiro 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
You have been told countless times, by numerous different editors, that your contributions are spam and unwanted, yet you keep coming back under different account names and different IP addresses attempting to evade your various blocks. You know that sockpuppets aren't permitted on Wikipedia. Please desist. - David Biddulph (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I have blacklisted the domain on the English Wikipedia per the long term abuse. WilliamH (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
And the boomerang spins on round and round...I see the D-word (defamation) in that OP too. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, these domains were blacklisted globally a few months ago. It's still a WP:BOOMERANG as these posts will be used as reasons to summarily reject any future delisting requests. MER-C 10:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm trying to find out why the fact that he's an admin on the Italian Wikipedia makes it into the OP's rationale ... "welcome to the English Wikipedia". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"Logic and reason, m'boy...logic and reason." I forget where I first saw that used in this ironic context...but it fits so well...in unfortunatly far too many places. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Here my rectification according Italian and international Law, by forcing I meant asking them regardless of anything, it was just a clear fault of me.--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
FYI plus a lot of emails sent via Wikipedia and some legal threats to me and childish trolling... is getting quite boring...--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't expect that they would follow my advice and come here. If there's anyone around who can set up edit filters, can you create one to stop totallympics being added? AFAIK it's the only way to deal with spam once people stop posting it as actual links. (I'll post a request here too in a moment.) SmartSE (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually I can create a filter but this will probably bring our spammers to change target, to me we need a radical solution. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


You can do whatever you want as I'm not even the owner of the site, but you have already threaten to lock someone's email and internet connection and I'm still waiting for that. It was also interesting to see how these messages just disappeared few hours later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.33.125.137 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Writing from a different provider? ROTFL. Tempo al tempo trolluzzo mio :D --Vituzzu (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


So should I be scared that my mail, provider and the forum will be closed as you promised ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.156.178.11 (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I spy, with my little eye, something that begins with "C"...oh, it's a WP:COMPETENCE issue. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

90.196.241.238

Does 90.196.241.238 (talk · contribs) look familiar to anyone? They seem to me to be a returning nationalist POV warrior who's familiar with Vintagekits; they've been altering nationalities on British-related bios and have made the extraordinary claim that they're fighting a kind of war, and so are justified in edit-warring. They seem to believe that sufficient bluster will be a smokescreen for their activities. See my talkpage for a sample: [4], [5] and [6]. I've blocked them for a week for edit-warring with intent on Amir Khan. Full disclosure: I did revert once there, but self-reverted. Acroterion (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PowerSane/Archive. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I was pretty sure they were no stranger to SPI. Acroterion (talk) 04:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

legal threat

WP:LEGAL violation in this edit. Is he/she telling the truth? Wasbeer 04:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

  • IP blocked for 1 year per WP:NLT and the try-not-to-indef-IPs guideline. Up to others to determine the validity of the threat. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Given that some of the content they claim was "stolen from a legit website" is referenced, to multiple sources, I'm inclined to think it's likely not truthful (plus "legit website" is a somewhat...odd phrasing.) - The Bushranger One ping only 05:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Wasbeer 05:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit-warring as "method" for pushing article changes

The Chetniks article has recently seen two separate attempts to introduce changes to the article through coordinated edit-warring, in spite of active opposition on the talkpage. I cannot emphasize enough that the lede version being altered, and the section that was removed, are sourced thoroughly with numerous sources and stood in the article for literally several years. The changes also include POV blanking of sourced facts personally disagreeable to two users, and the misquoting of sources previously listed in the article. In other words, information was replaced with an opposed new draft, and the references that supported the (long-standing) previous version were simply moved to another piece of text they have little to do with (i.e. they were blatantly misquoted). The new draft proposal being introduced via edit-warring is actively opposed on the talkpage on the basis of bias through omission, as it ignores several sources (that were brought-up), and generally sports a pronounced POV.

Specifically: 1) an opposed draft of the lede has been introduced, with sourced text deleted, and 2) all long-standing (and fully sourced) mention of ethnic cleansing has been deleted through WP:SECTION BLANKING of the relevant article section. The two users edit-warring in concert to push these changes are User:Nuujinn (who writes the changes) and User:FkpCascais (who is acting as a sort of "enforcer").

It is important to note that the users, since they are in fact gaming the 3RR system, are no doubt hoping to have the article protected - with their version on top. I will also point out that while I also did revert the users, I was restoring the status quo version, and refrained from violations of WP:3RR at all times. I had been attempting to establish WP:BRD, and have no intention whatsoever of reverting them at all in the future.

This is, of course, a classic method of pushing new opposed edits that exploits Wikipedia's own guidelines. Note the numerous benefits: two users keep restoring their new changes; if they are reverted then the user that reverted them can expect to be sanctioned also ("it takes two to edit-war") and will thus avoid reporting them, but if reported, their version is likely to get protected for good ("there is no wrong version") in spite of any sanctions (if any). If they are not reverted, then they're not really edit-warring to push their edits in the first place. Either way, the new changes find their way into the article, are there to stay, and they've successfully WP:GAMED THE SYSTEM. In my experience, it works almost every time. I am requesting that the edit be reverted, and the users be warned with regard to WP:BRD, in order to facilitate talkpage discussion. In the alternative, there is no point to any continuation of discussion when the users have twice now shown that they can basically do whatever they like. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it is really time for admin intervention against DIREKTOR who made an incredible number of exactly 80 reverts (check by yourselfs) on Chetniks article since the day he inserted the highly controversial disputed text with manipulated and descontextualised sources. I restored the text that User:Nuujinn a neutral editor with much experiance has created in order to archive balance but DIREKTOR reverted. Then I removed the exagerated unsourced claim and left with what is sourced, but DIREKTOR reverts that as well. We are in front of a highly biased editor who is doing his best to manipulate the article in a way one side POV is represented and boicoting all attempts many other users are doing to archive balance in this article. DIREKTOR already had his version changed during the mediation at Draža Mihailović article, and now is doing all the efforts to keep his highly biased version on this other related article. Btw, DIREKTOR has using highly uncivil behaviour at discussions including numerous ethnically motivated accusations to a number of editors. FkpCascais (talk) 07:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
The lede is perfectly accurate and the statement you dispute is more thoroughly sourced than most on Wikipedia. The fact that it insults the "national honour" of a large number of right-wing-leaning Serbian users is another matter entirely. It stood for 3 years, and the fact that this was in spite of strong nationalism-inspired opposition, on an obscure Serbian history article, is if anything a testament to its accuracy and sourcing. Even if the utterly nonsensical "80 reverts" claim was anything more than your "estimate", taken as it is over a period three years it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. User:Nuujinn is a "neutral" editor only as far as you yourself are concerned. He is in fact part of your own pro-Chetnik group, and that is actually quite an easily demonstrable fact. His proposal is opposed on good grounds, but he is content to have the edit-warrior notified and has beem avoiding discussion for days npw.
It looks like this gang-edit-war might not receive the appropriate attention from the community. That would, without question, constitute a vindication of edit-warring as the appropriate tool for proposing new edits on the article at question. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Direktor, I often have some degree of sympathy for your position. The above statement just destroyed it. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
(Sigh). I'm pretty well tied up right now finishing up house consolidation/improvement in RL right now, but any criticism of my actions or how they might have been better done is certainly welcome, either here or on my talk page. I'll have some time later today to catch up on what's happened in the last few days since I've been off line here. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

───────────────────────── @Bwilkins. Well yes, I'm sorry Bwilkins, but are you aware how many issues like this which, in my most sincerest opinion, warrant at least some kind of mild intervention are simply ignored? If a group of editors can change the long-standing lede of an article without consensus, against opposition, and contrary to four or five cited sources, simply by edit-warring - then inaction on the part of the community is indeed vindication of their methods (in that article at least). What am I supposed to do? Real discussion isn't taking place, and cannot take place, because the users already have gotten their way and can simply dismiss objections from a position of strength. If I oppose their lede change, what other course of action is there other than to edit-war? And please do not say DR since we've long since established the value of that course in these obscure Balkans issues, or lack thereof.

The only thing that is required here, the only necessary measure, is a condemnation of edit-warring as a means of pushing new, opposed edits (WP:BRD). Its not even a matter of looking into the validity of said changes. I really am only trying to preserve discussion as a course of action on these articles. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 03:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that edit-warring should be sanctioned, as 80 counted reverts of DIREKTOR in one article is really a serious issue, specially having in mind that the same pattern of behavior is found in several other related articles. Discussion is taking place, and detailed discussions took place on the mediation. Some conclusions were archived, and related articles are being worked out.
The problem is that DIREKTOR is seing his highly biased version that he defended by all means in all these articles being replaced by correct interpretations of sources, thus all the panic now. A way to demonstrate this highly biased aproach by him can be confirmed by his insistent way of describing the issue purpously as "obscure". After all we are dealing with a major resistance movement in the entire region, that, yes, did had its difficulties troughout the war. But DIREKTOR seems unable to separate his personal feelings here... and that is a BIG problem, joined by his highly manipulative and rude manner of discussing these sensitive issues. A clear disruption in my view, but unfortunatelly and amazingly, DIREKTOR has been forgiven allways because of some strange reasons... FkpCascais (talk) 06:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposals by User:Shakinglord

A couple of weeks back, immediately prior to being blocked, this user placed merger proposal tags on the month articles relating to 1962, eg January 1962. There appears to be no interest in debating this nor any consensus to merge. Please would someone remove the tags? I could be said to have a conflict of interest as some of these articles were created by me. Deb (talk) 17:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Despite Shakinglord having suggested it, a merger doesn't appear to be a bad idea. More precisely, it seems like 1962 ought to simply transclude January 1962, February 1962, etc., instead of having that information duplicated in two pages. (In other words, leave the month articles alone but overhaul 1962). Bottom line, I'd suggest leaving the merger tags up... if no one else expresses an interest in a merger, they can be removed in due course. 28bytes (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
You mean, make the year article unmanageably long? I don't see how that's a good idea. When is "in due course"? Isn't it now? Deb (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Help:Merging#Closing instructions states "If there is clear agreement with the proposal by consensus, or if there is silence [cite_note-1: The debate should be open for at least two weeks.], proceed with the merger." Using the magic of logic, if no proposal was ever made within the same 2 weeks, then remove the merge templates and consider it an abandoned proposal. If 28bytes would like to initiate a fresh merge proposal, s/he can always re-add the templates and start a discussion on the talk page (unlike Shakinglord who failed to follow through on the proposal discussion). Rgrds. --64.85.220.244 (talk) 12:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

IP hopper:Edit warring and refusal to cite edits

Not sure if this is where to bring this. On several music pages, including U2 and Bon Jovi, a number of IPs all geolocated to the Sao Paolo, Brazil area have repeatedly inserted uncited number changes as well as other material going on for well over a year now. Recently 187.101.19.219, 187.56.44.155, and 187.56.45.152 are the latest batch. They have never once replied to a talkpage communication or left an edit summary. Would it be possible to get semi-protections for the pages and possibly a range block for this IP range? According to this, the page has been semi-ed before because of this issue. I started this here earlier Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:187.56.44.155 reported by User:Heironymous Rowe (Result: ), but no action has been taken and anyway they have now moved on to another IP. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask for this, the other noticeboards in the menu at the top didnt seem applicable either. If there is a specific place to ask for this, point me there. Heiro 07:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

They are still at it here [21] and [22]. Heiro 09:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Both articles semi-d for now, guess this is fixed for now. Heiro 11:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sabeeel43

Sabeeel43 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) has been adding multiple pictures which he claims to be own work, and what looks like a lot of BLP violations to articles. There are a lot of edits in a short time, so I have placed a shortish block (72 hours) to check what's going on and to repair the damage. Some help in sorting this out would be appreciated, as it's a lot to go through. 09:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

At least one of the images is an obvious copyright violation [23] and I've marked it for speedy deletion on commons. I strongly suspect the rest are too, but they're hard to track down, especially ones of Justin Bieber (there are just so many...). I'm pretty sure the information he is adding to articles, especially where he claims to be the manager of various artists including Bieber, is false. They are certainly unsourced and thus violate WP:BLP. Sparthorse (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree. He also adds his phone number in most of the edits where he claims to be the manager. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 09:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
On a second look, the quantity is not so bad, just a few articles. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I think that all of the controversial edits have been reverted. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 09:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not very good with Commons. Could someone who is a little more apt there go over his contributions? I susspect all of them are copyvios. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm working through them on commons but its slow going. Every one I've checked so far has been a copyright violation, I suspect they all are. Any help would be appreciated. Sparthorse (talk) 10:03, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I am not familiar with the administrative noticeboards at Commons but I think this user needs to be reported at the equivalent of Commons ANI. I think he will be uploading more of these files if left unchecked. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 10:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I've put up a notice on the commons admin noticeboard here. Thanks for the suggestion, Sparthorse (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for following up. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 10:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

() I upped the block here to indef. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a good idea. Thank you. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 10:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Crystal Cathedral

Resolved: 72Dino (talk) 15:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Reviewing the history of the Crystal Cathedral article for the past 24 hours (see here), there have been several brand new accounts editing this article. One generally does not see this kind of activity unless they are sockpuppets or meatpuppets, but it could be coincidental because of some recent activity involving the sale of the article's subject. I would request an admin to review this history to determine if the article should be semi-protected or if there is any connection among these new editors. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't look at it, but does any of it look like vandalism or non constructive editing to you. JOJ Hutton 04:03, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Nothing I would call vandalism, but there was a lot of changes to content that was settled upon on the talk page. The editing pattern just appeared odd and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something with these editors. 72Dino (talk) 04:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I've gone through a bunch of the diffs and I don't see any vandalism or seriously tendentious editing. You are right that these seem to be new accounts and all, but if this brings new editors to the project then that's fine with me. Anyway, it is a good idea to keep your eye on it, of course. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I wanted to get a second set of experienced eyes on the activity. I will continue to monitor the account but you can consider this resolved. 72Dino (talk) 04:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

user:Delivernews and Operation Linda Nchi

There is somewhat of a dispute going on on the Operation Linda Nchi, a certain editor named user:Delivernews is trying to delete any information, sourced or unsourced, which contradicts claims made by the Kenyan regime, which is clearly POV. I have been trying to prevent major damage to the thread however I have been banned for edit warring once before so I am wary to do to much and thus would like to get some administrator involvement. The user typed in the comments by his edits: "I understand terrorist groups run propaganda and I hope the FBI is tracing all of you editing this as you are shoing signs of supporting a terrorist organization" - which I think is completely unacceptable and should immedietly be moderated since he is insulting everyone which disagrees with him as a terrorist or terrorist supporter and calling on them to be arrested. He has definetly decided not to act in a civil manner and I think there is little room for assuming good faith left. Administrators should get involved.Kermanshahi (talk) 21:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, as for a little of this users history, he recently vandalised casualty figures on the African Union Mission to Somalia, adding random low figures claiming the casualty figures on the articles were "propaganda," although this was later reverted because these were actualy the amounths of casualties acknowledged by AMISOM commanders.

The FBI comment doesn't rise to the level of a legal threat, but it is utterly unacceptable as a personal attack - I've warned him as such at his talk page. (Don't have time to assess further, other admins can decide what to do here.) - The Bushranger One ping only 22:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

AgentPolkaDot removing information from Occupy Cal

Resolved

AgentPolkaDot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been removing lots of information from Occupy Cal saying that it's unsourced, and a violation of the BLP policy, while most of it (as far as I can tell) is not about people, and sourced, though some is poorly sourced. At least two people have asked him to discuss it, and has been warned about edit warring and blanking pages on his talk page. An editor expressed the concern that he may be a sock of someone, as he knows very much about WP policies, despite being created today. Because checkuser isn't to be used for fishing we thought that ANI would be more appropriate. Pilif12p 23:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Someone filed this a few minutes before I did this. Pilif12p 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I think what we have here is a bad case of WP:BITE, with me assuming good faith with that user. CheckUser might produce interesting results if we had a known master, but we don't.Jasper Deng (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Update: User blocked.Jasper Deng (talk) 23:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, not much choice really. The problem is that the material AgentPolkaDot was removing was poorly aourced, but it was sourced; and the identification of the policeman involved is also out there in reliable sources ([24]). I'd suggest that if anyone's going to put the information back, though, it's sourced properly and inline. Black Kite (t) 00:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not a new user, as the following accounts are  Confirmed as each other:

 IP blocked, and I have ramped AgentPolkaDot's block to indefinite. –MuZemike 01:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I've edited the article for WP:NPOV. It had a lot of charged words and repeated content.--v/r - TP 01:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
AgentPolkaDot is clearly not the oldest account, but it doesn't matter, really.Jasper Deng (talk) 01:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Block evasion

Resolved

Blocked--v/r - TP 00:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The IP userUser_talk:202.3.77.183 got blocked for personal attacks and editwarring, but he is hopping IPs now to edit war. This is the second IP User_talk:202.3.77.205. In this diff he continued to editwar revert after being blocked on the previous IP (refer to article history) [25]. Though the article in question is now protected but the real issue was of personal attacks at different places including the AVI page and my talk page. Since he's already blocked does it call for a range block for block evasion? (he'll keep coming back otherwise with his personal attacks). --lTopGunl (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I WP:DUCK blocked the IP. The block will expire at the same time as the other IP's block.--v/r - TP 00:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Thankyou. Expecting another hop though. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Mass of notablity violations in progress

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
No further administrative attention seems necessary at this point. The editor in question is taking a wikibreak. There is an RFC open about the notability issue. Any cleanup of the created articles is better discussed on other pages. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Two days ago, (202084) 2004 SE56, an unnamed speck among untold thousands way out in space, was a redirect to a chart of thousands and thousands of such rocks. Today, along with thousands more, it has been made into an article. This mocks notablity guidelines and if allowed to stand will may be forever pointed to as proof that Wikipedia has no effective notablity standards. Every minute that goes by, the creator of this astroidette article creates more and more, yet no one has yet acted to stop him. He has no consensus to do this even from the astrology community, let alone the community at large. Please act now. Chrisrus (talk) 23:54, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

As an uninvolved administrator I have notified the user of this question and asked them to pause while the matter is discussed [26]. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
In summary, the issue seems to be whether articles such as (101223)_1998_SW62 satisfy the notability criterion. I have asked the Astronomy WikiProject to comment, as it seems they have been discussing this very issue very recently. There is even a proposed notability standard at Wikipedia:Notability (astronomical objects). As an administrator, the first question in my mind is whether these articles would meet that proposed standard - opinions from editors familiar with that area would help.
There was a previous ANI thread at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive228#Merovingian_mass_creation which did not seem to come to a clear outcome. In particular, there is a policy issue with this task and WP:MASSCREATION. I estimate that over 500 of these articles have been created in November, which certainly passes the limit beyond which prior approval is needed. But the main question for deciding that is going to be whether the topics are notable, so notability is the most productive issue for us to address. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Pretty sure that would fail the proposed notability standard so hard it would leave a crater. (Pun not necessarily intended.) But yes, the Astronomy WikiProject is aware of this and that's why our notability guideline is in the works. Also, please don't confuse astronomy with astrology. Thanks. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
As a participant at WikiProject Astronomy, it is my hope that the notability criteria up for review will reach some sort of accord on the matter. I agree that most of the minor planet articles do not satisfy WP:GNG and have little prospect of doing so any time soon. But I'm not sure that the creation of such articles is intended to mock said guidelines. The objects just seem to be a particular interest of a couple of editors. Regards, RJH (talk) 01:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
This editor has been creating thousands of these stubs for several years, and has been met with questions and opposition many times. WP:OUTCOMES only says that these objects can be included in list articles. The proposed notability guideline would clarify that. The consensus at WP:ASTRONOMY is that objects such as these are not notable enough for stand-alone articles, but also should not be deleted. Rather, their names should be redirected to the appropriate list. Right now the notability guideline is at RfC to be promoted to guideline. In terms of support, it has more than 2 to 1 support, with much of the objection over semantic quibbles. Some of the objectors do think that there should be articles for every object in the Universe, but that is not the consensus of the astronomy editors at WP:ASTRONOMY. I do not think this editor is creating these stubs as a way to make a point or to mock anybody. I think it is just a hobby for them. However, the editor has contradicted themselves a few times; in a conversation with me, he admitted that these objects were not notable, but justified their creation due to the lack of consensus to that point about notability. He is wrong to say that there is a consensus to keep them. With the creation of the notability guideline, a hard-work effort by the WP:ASTRONOMY community, it is better argued now that the consensus is that unless significant coverage (beyond a parameter listing in the JPL database) can be established, minor planets don't warrant a stand-alone article. Cheers, AstroCog (talk) 02:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
What does the OP want administrators to do at this point? What are we supposed to delete, protect, or block? --Jayron32 02:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, as an administrator I have already asked the person in question to pause. The next step is to let people comment here so that I can see if there is a consensus about the articles. Administrator tasks include more than just blocking, protecting, and deleting, we can also head things off before they get that far. So far there the opinion seems to be that the editor who has been creating the articles needs to stop and get consensus. But there is time to let more people comment before we worry about what the final administrative action will be. It will probably be some sort of admonition, but the content depends on what the outcome of the discussion is. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on one point: Any editor has the power to "head things off before they get that far." Admins do not have special powers to force editors to stop doing things beyond the use of their tools, and their admonitions should not carry extra weight. If established editors have already told him to stop, then the words of an administrator in this regard do not carry extra weight. Admins are not empowered to be supereditors, and the things we administrators say do not mean anything more to any conflict than the things that any editor of sufficient experience and good standing do. That's why other dispute resolution processes exist, and that's why this board has giant bold letters at the top telling users to use those processes. --Jayron32 03:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
A priori, we don't know whether other people have told him to stop, or whether the complaint is entirely frivolous. That's what I am looking to determine. It appears, so far, that the outcome might be an admonition to the editor to stop creating these articles (per WP:MASSCREATION) until a consensus in favor of them is obtained, at the risk of being blocked. That sort of warning is hard for a non-admin to give because they cannot actually perform the block. But the only way to tell whether that admonition is warranted is to ask others to comment. That sort of admonition does not address any underlying dispute about WP:N, and it does not prejudge the outcome, it just makes it possible for the matter to be addressed elsewhere. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Admins should not also unilaterally block for something like this; if an admin had a problem with behavior of this nature it should be discussed and decided by the community before blocking or otherwise using their tools. --Jayron32 03:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure what you mean by "unilateral". If someone is violating a community norm, like WP:MASSCREATION, and they are warned, then blocks are appropriate. But the first step is to find out whether the edits already have consensus. Again, the goal is not to decide the eventual outcome – it's just to get everyone to stop making disputed edits before a consensus is reached. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems like I have to constantly justify myself about these articles to keep from getting run out of this place feeling like some kind of a bad person. I don't think all minor planets are notable. I do think they require articles nonetheless. I would be saying the exact same thing of railway stations, uninhabited islands, semi-professional soccer players, etc. I have always been a proponent of inclusion of articles, because I value verifiability, neutrality, and fact over notability standards. I believe that many notability standards are arbitrary to the point of harming this project. --Merovingian (T, C, L) 04:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like you're saying that you know the article creations are not in accoradance with policy (which requires notability), but that you personally disagree with policy and therefore will keep making them. If this is the case I think you are clearly engaged in WP:POINT disruption. If you have a problem with having to justify your actions then stop making those actions. I'll make it easy for you: Stop creating articles about topics you know are non-notable, or I will have to apply sanctions. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information it is also not a Directory. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Are (202084) 2004 SE56 and the rest of these things notable enough to have an article? Absolutely not. They are rocks in the middle of nowhere. That’s all.

Please have a look at this picture:
InnerSolarSystem-en.png
. They are in the process with no consensus of creating an article for each of these bits of dust. And that won’t be all. Even though it is theoretically possible that these will be the end of them, reason dictates that for each of these there must be many more smaller ones that remain to be discovered, and, if these editors, this editor, has his way, all of them will have articles. They will be a large percentage of all the articles of all the articles on Wikipedia.

What then will be said of Wikipedia’s Notability standards? If this is allowed, anyone can say “Oh, my uncle George doesn’t meet notability guidelines? (202084) 2004 SE56 has an article. Uncle George is much more notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Or whatever. Anything is more notable than 202084) 2004 SE56. What could be less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56? My left sock is more notable than 202084) 2004 SE56. The existence of the article (202084) 2004 SE56 mocks notability guidelines. I don’t think it’s reasonable to put the onus on me to prove that this meaningless speck of nothing in the middle of nowhere that has nothing to do with anything is not notable. Instead, I would like to ask that someone prove it is. What’s notable about it? What could possibly be less notable? If I tried to start an article about my little elementary school, it would not be allowed on notability grounds. Yet my elementary school was very important in the lives of thousands of people. (202084) 2004 SE56 has not and will never be significant in the life of anyone, will it now. Well maybe, but it’s highly unlikely. And if it does happen, we can always start an article then. Thousands of people would actually be interested in reading an article about my elementary school. No one will ever want to read almost any of these articles, it’s reasonable to assume. Please put forward an imaginable scenario in which someone will benefit from the existence of the article (202084) 2004 SE56. Finally, what is the point in making these articles? What ever for? No one cares, no one will read them. I can only speculate as to why they are being created. I just edited out my speculation. It doesn’t matter. The existence of these articles are so blatantly violated notability standards that investigating why they are being created is not necessary. I’m trying to anticipate arguments against my position, but I honestly can’t. That they are in orbit about the sun? So are many kajillion specks of dust. What other argument could there be? Their existence does no harm? We are being hit up for cash on the grounds that we need more servers, in part. We don’t need to waste it on a bunch of dust. More importantly, how could we ever reject an article on notability grounds with these articles standing as proof that we have no effective notability standards? The existence of these articles threatens the existence of notability standards on Wikipedia, that’s the harm. If these dust mote articles are allowed to stand, we will owe an apology to everyone who’s ever had an article deleted on notability grounds, because I can’t imagine any of them could have been less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Name me something which could possibly be less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Name one thing that someone has in good faith tried to add to Wikipedia that was rejected on notability grounds alone that was not more notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Actually don’t bother. Don’t even argue; give it up, speedily agree and let’s move on. It’s absurd to argue that they meet notability standards. Instead, let’s talk about what we should do next. Actually, I'll leave that to you. Over and out. Chrisrus (talk) 04:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, if we allow this the next is someone entering in the phone directory. Likelihood is that there would be a greater percentage of actual notable articles there.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Chrisrus - please, take a glass of tea and a deep breath. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It's too bad he quit because he was a productive, dedicated editor. It's very sad that he was not stopped long ago when he wouldn't have wasted so much effort. Unfinished business includes a forensic investigation into possible failure of the notablity check system for new articles: if I didn't happen to have one of the redirect talk pages on my watchlist I never would have noticed, either; and it's a bit late and sad once someone has created a thousand new articles to notice that they are a bunch of rocks in the middle of nowhere. Is there some way this could be prevented in the future?
Having said that, however, I should apologize for my last edit, written to end all discussion of whether these things pass notablity guidelines. I had not noticed or anticipated that he would have a split second earlier actually admited in so many words that the referents of all those articles were not notable, rendering my work unnecessary. If I had seen and read that post he snuck in before mine, I needn't have bothered. Chrisrus (talk) 06:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
You needn't have written a truly nasty screed? No, you really needn't. Nice job running off a good faith editor. LadyofShalott 07:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Please just study, just glance at Special:Contributions/Merovingian. Turn it on to "500", the max, and scroll back ten, fifteen, until you get some idea of what he refused time and again to stop doing. This is what I have finally brought to an end, you're welcome. While you're paging back through thousands of pages of shredding of Wikipedia's integrity, realize that it turns out he knew what he was doing and thumbing his nose at us all. He refused time and time again to listen to reason or to do anything but stonewall. This was no good faith editor. I've done my part to save Wikipedia from him, and am proud of it, and am finished here. If you want to help, join the discussion below as to how to clean up his massive mess. Good luck with that. Chrisrus (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I have to agree with LadyofShalott on this, Chrisrus. It seems like you've lost a little perspective on this issue. No offense intended, but you might want to take a little break yourself. Regards, RJH (talk) 16:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that all of these minor planet "articles" should be deleted. They are (tiny) stubs and will never become anything more than that. On the other hand we can't merge them into a list since such a list exists (it is the one Merovingian is using to write the "articles" from) - and merging them into a list would likely reproduce the entirety of that book and hence constitute a copyright violation. I do think it is a shame to have to undue someone's hard work like this - but I honestly think that they have noone but themselves to blame - having knowingly flouted our policies on article creation. They are wasting their own and the community's time, apparently mostly in order to make an ideological point. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
But how can we make a list without it being a copyright infringement of the actual published list, that Merovingian has presumably been working from?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
A simple list of "minor planets by designation, discovery date, and diameter" shoudn't be a problem, I'd think - and, in fact, one already exists. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Note that the information about minor planets is freely available from JPL and the IAU's minor planet center. I'm not clear that there is any sort of copyright dispute. A concern for me is not that the data is being replicated, but that it is not being maintained on the Wikipedia side. Any updates at the JPL site may not be reflected on the Wikipedia article, so it is likely that we have a bunch of obsolete data. Regards, RJH (talk) 06:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I haven't seen it and am not a lawyer, but the "actual published list" probably doesn't have enough creative content to be protected by copyright, any more than the main part of a phone directory or a table of pipe dimensions (yes, that came up in a UK copyright case once). WP:Public_domain#Non-creative_works discusses. NebY (talk) 12:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Agree with redirecting. I see little value in a standalone article unless the object has been sufficiently studied to allow writing more encyclopedic things about it than can comfortably fit in a five column table. Kilopi (talk) 08:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
@Chrisrus - Was that previous histrionic diatribe really necessary? Sure, Merovingian may have flouted policy in a rather pointy way, but your rant basically rode the line of incivility. Your failure to assume good faith is reprehensible. --Blackmane (talk) 09:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Sneeky! Why have you gone back and inserted this at this point? If you'd put it at the bottom, it would have been very clear that, below, he was angry not at me but at being accused of POINT disruption, flouting policies, and mostly the fact that he saw that thousands of hours of his work were about to be reverted and he had no one but himself to blame. Good faith was assumed on my part publically until after he'd quit, and by all until he admitted he knew that he was in gross violation of our standards and procedures but didn't think other people's opinions mattered so long as there was some way to stretch out debate forever. Good faith and was only questioned quite rightly by Maunus, below, who pointedly asked how we could assume good faith given these facts. Even if I'd said nothing, the two posts below which crushed him would have caused him to leave. If someone had put it as I did long ago he wouldn't have wasted a chunk of his life. Read on: Chrisrus (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I am "clearly engaged in WP:POINT disruption"? I have "knowingly flouted [...] policies"? This is ridiculous. What happened to assumption of good faith? I have been patiently editing and trying to improve Wikipedia's coverage on minor planets for years. This did not just start. In the last few months the flak I have received for these edits has become unfair and unbearable. Why is there such a demand to limit what Wikipedia should be, instead of grow it? This is a public flogging and I will not accept it. I quit. --Merovingian (T, C, L) 04:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

You are saying that you agree that these rocks are not notable yet you have created hundreds of articles about them because you disagree with the notability policy. If this is not a flouting of policy, and a classica case of WP:POINT, then please explain what it is? How can I assume good faith when you yourself state that you made a decision to violate policy? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
"I don't think all minor planets are notable. I do think they require articles nonetheless." Since notability is a requirement for something to have a Wikipedia article, then you have defeated your own argument, and I have to believe you're competent enough to realise that. So what else are we supposed to assume? - The Bushranger One ping only 05:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic Shift

I do not know User:Chrisrus's level of understanding of English, but if I were User talk:Merovingian, I'd have trouble understanding and comprehending an edit summary like this: "Plea no undo until repl on talk re why redirect just now returned to article again despite previous astronomical editor's consensus to chart". I get some of what he's trying to say, but not much.--v/r - TP 05:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It was enough for him to understand given his awareness of context.
This is what it meant:

"This is another plea from Chrisrus. Do not undo this edit (it was a revert to a redirect toward a list of minor planets) until you reply on the discussion page of the article (202084) 2004 SE56, (which was where the edit summary was made). Explain why te redirect has just now been returned (by him) back to a full article despite the existence there on Talk:(202084) 2004 SE56 a long-standing conversation in which a person calling himself "an astronomical editor" declared that there had been a consensus to convert all of such articles to reverts to the chart."

This all in the space alloted by the editsummary box.Chrisrus (talk) 06:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The summary box is limited for a reason - it is not meant to be an exhaustive explanation of the reasoning behind edits, that's what a talkpage is for. GiantSnowman 16:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I know. He was ignoring it. You'll see I said the same thing on the talk page. He was just reverting redirect to article without addressing the points. Chrisrus (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Close thread?

If Merovingian has decided to take a wikibreak in response to this thread then it seems like no admin action will be needed, and we can close the thread. There is an RFC at Wikipedia:Notability (astronomical objects) where the notability questions can be discussed, and editors at the Astronomy WikiProject can take care of redirecting these articles if there is consensus to do so.

Separately, I feel somewhat sad that this thread became so heated. I don't have any doubt that Merovingian was editing in good faith, although the article creations appear, at least based on the comments here, to be at odds with community ideals. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me if I am overstepping my bounds, but does the fact that Merovingian is an admin not concern anyone else? Purposely flaunting the rules seems rather unbecoming. Rgrds. --64.85.220.244 (talk) 14:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Close it if you want, but open another to finish talking about how to clean up the mess. Chrisrus (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
If he's an Admin his time would have been better spent helping out on notice boards. I've had an article unprotect request waiting for 20 hours, presumably due to a lack of admin. resource. FWIW, I didn't read your earlier remarks other than a straightforward statement of concern and fully justified criticism. Leaky Caldron 16:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
No, the fact he was an admin isn't a major concern. Admins, when creating content, are the same as everybody else, and there was zero abuse of the tools regardless of one's opinion on the articles he created, so his adminship or not is utterly irrelevant here. And there is no need whatsoever to open another discussion to "talk about how to clean up the mess" - that's already been discussed and generally agreed, those that fail ASTRO's new notability guideline will be redirected to the appropriate list. Request close please. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but before we close, but what will be done about all these articles: Special:Contributions/Merovingian? There was some talk that the astronomy editors would take that over, has that been agreed? What is the simplest way to undo them all? There are thousands. Chrisrus (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As I say, this isn't the place to discuss that, but the obvious answer would be to redirect them to the list articles. If there are thousands, you may be able to find someone who can do that automatically at WP:BOTREQ. Black Kite (t) 19:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Ok, then, it'll be WP:BOTREQ then, not the astonomy group. Given the context, it might be better if someone else started the thread there. Would you like to do the honors? Just explain to them what we've decided here and make sure they understand, please. Chrisrus (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It would be nice if we could get a ruling from the astronomy group before approaching the bot group, don't you think? And please, this closure was a tad premature. All we've done is stopped it getting worse. We haven't put things right yet. What about the Notablity noticeboard? Please either remove the closure marks or allow me to do so. Chrisrus (talk) 02:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Questionable semi-protection of English Defense League

I have been around this article for a couple of years, most recently only to copy edit and revert vandalism. The article attracts its share of non-neutral contributors, ownership issues and inevitable arguments that flare from time to time. I noticed a semi-protection yesterday by Admin/CheckUser User:Tiptoety and discovered this brief exchange on their talk page conversation [27]. I requested clarification but Tiptoety has been off-line for 24 hours. I raised a request at WP:RPP which was not responded to until I approached the active patroller directly [28]. They declined to lift the semi-protection. This [29] is simply an enquiry, not a request. There is no WP:SPI request. I need clarification on (a) the validity of the semi-protection by Tiptoety and (b) the justification for using "Persistent sock puppetery" as the stated reason when there appears to be no such evidence. The claimant has identified 2 IPs which each have only made a single edit – that is not persistent editing, much less persistent socking. Can the situation be reviewed to ensure that semi-protection is in line with policy and to ensure that unregistered users are not prevented from contributing to article space for no valid reason. Leaky Caldron 17:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Hmm ... if those 2 IPs are the same editors (and remember, User:Tiptoety is a CheckUser, so he would actually know if they were socks of banned users if he had used his CU tools), then the semi may be reasonable; you'd really need to wait for a reply from him though. Black Kite (t) 19:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Tiptoety stated "Per the privacy policy, I can not link an IP address to a named user. That said, I went ahead and protected the article for a few days." So he's semi-protecting without evidence and using a plainly misleading reason by describing it as "persistent sock puppetry". I can think of hundreds of articles on my watchlist where I might suspected a SP at work. I wouldn't just expect a simple nod for any request I made. I don't agree with unregistered users but by policy we have them and by policy we should protect their rights. Leaky Caldron 19:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • By which I assume he means that those IPs are one of more blocked users, but he's not mentioning the user's names per privacy. I assume that, but as I say you'd really have to ask him, us mere admins can't help with this one I'm afraid. Black Kite (t) 19:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm with Black Kite here; absent of any other comments, it is pretty obvious that one can read between the lines. Tiptoety knows who the IP addresses are; his Checkuser will tell him that. What he cannot do is tell you who it is (directly), but that does NOT prevent him from protecting the page to prevent disruption. You can easily put two-and-two together here, even if he doesn't come out and say it, not because he doesn't have good evidence, but because Wikipedia's privacy policy prevents him from giving YOU that evidence. --Jayron32 20:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • But you know as well as I do, that wikipedia policy doesn't and shouldn't use protections preemptively. Was there major disruption on that page? I didn't see anything that would result in a semi-protection. A few ip edits, even disruptive ones, has hardly been huge cause for alarm. Only when the vandalism and disruption is persistent or there is a major WP:BLP problem, does protection usually come into play. Although, to play the other side, semi-protection is not a major disruption for those who wish to edit. Anyone can create an account, and the 10 edit and three day rule, is hardly a major obstacle to get over in order to edit a semi-protected page. I'm sure Tiptoey had a good reason, and I would like to hear it, but until then, the semi-protection won't cause too much stress or harm to the project.--JOJ Hutton 21:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • No, it won't - so why remove it, since it won't? When it comes to IP vandalism and sockpuppetry, semi-protection is honestly pretty much the only recourse - dynamic IPs make blocking an exercise in fultility all too many times. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • So what about the Founding Principle that anyone can edit articles without registration? If SP was applied to every article where a couple of dubious edits turned up then that particular principle would be out the window. Leaky Caldron 22:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

← Sorry for taking so long to respond, I have been rather busy at work these last few days. In regards to the protection, I can't nor will I really go into much further detail regarding the socking but I will say that CheckUser evidence assisted me in making the decision to protect the article. If another administrator disagrees with the protection, I have zero issues with it being removed; but remember I purposefully set it for only 3 days. Additionally, Leaky_caldron, I agree with you that preventing anonymous users from editing the project tends to be a violation of the founding pillars of this project and if you did a little digging would see I have performed thousands of unprotections on articles for that exact same reason. I ask that in this specific situation you trust that I am trying to do what is in the best interests of the project. Cheers, Tiptoety talk 04:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack by Udibi

The user Udibi made a personal attack against me, and indirectly against all the users in discussion with him, by calling me "profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy" on Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany. He also did the same on his talk page. Anonyma Madel 22:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

No, he said "You have the audacity to make such profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy statements". It's a bit uncivil, but certainly not a WP:NPA. Have you discussed this at WP:WQA? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
...and will you be notifying him of this thread, as required? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
No, I did not discuss there. Yes, I did notify him. He was trying to imply that I am a Communist revisonist. --Anonyma Madel 22:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
To be honest, I don't find Udibi's comments much worse than yours. If you make comments as you did on his talk page along the lines of "your Feminist approach to the subject is inappropriate and can only serve to bring many Neo Nazi editors to Wikipedia" I think you should expect a robust response. My advice is for you to disengage from one another. 28bytes (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
My intent was not to imply that he knew he was doing anything to cause that. --Anonyma Madel 23:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
If you go back and read my posts, I said that the article was problematic because it offers voice after voice of direct quotes justifying/diminishing the rapes (all from Men, save one from a Russian woman that contextualizes the rapes), yet does not offer one syllable of a single word from a single woman who had been subjected to rape. I then suggested one way in which the article could be improved by giving a more dry account of the issue initially, followed by the ample contextualization already provided in the article, and at some point including some women's/victim's voices. In its current form the article is all contextualization. I'm sorry, but that is simply not a valid, balanced, or academically acceptable way to handle rape. The response by "Anonymiss Madchen" was to accuse me of abetting Neo-Nazis and, later, to directly state directly that the women were, likely, willing participants in their rape. I don't see how my possibly implying that he might be a Communist Revisionist can hold a candle to that in terms of civility or anything else. I made valid, scholarly criticisms, to which I got a response that IS frankly off-the-handle and then this user has the gall to report me for civility. If the two of us were to debate this on any university campus, he would be eaten alive for implying that my insistence that rape victims should have a voice abets Neo-Nazis and for his direct statement that rape victims were willing participants in their rape. "Anonymiss Madchen" is fortunate that I am not as versed in the ways of Wikipedia as he - If I didn't have other real-world concerns I would have reported him. If the Wikipedia community thinks that my position that women should be allowed a voice is somehow indefensible and/or that justifying rape is a valid and civil stance, then there really is no hope for this site ever to be taken seriously by academia. If the Wikipedia community feels that saying the statement that rape victims "wanted it" is "profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy" is somehow out of line, then the Wikipedia community has completely lost its moral compass. If you'll note, I even stated that I felt "Anonymiss Madchen" was trying to behave as troll and egg me on. This also means directly that I did not believe and was not calling the user himself any of those negative things (insane, misogynistic....). It means that his completely unjustifiable position that women wanted to be raped is so over-the-top that I did not believe he himself could be sincere in making such a statement. Many issues in this world are up for debate, however some simply are not. Rape is never ok, never justifiable and defending/justifying rape and blaming the rape victim is most certainly never something that can reasonably be viewed as civil or rational. It is absurd that I am now the one having to defend my position, civility, and my discussion posts against THAT. Udibi (talk) 00:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I did not say anywhere that women were willing particpants in their rape, which would be completely absurd. What I said was, which I am explaining for the third time, is that we should consider the fact that there were likely German women who had consentual sex with Russians and who would have reported being raped to the Nazis or their families because it was completely forbidden for them to interact with people who were considered subhuman. I also told you, which is also stated by reliable sources cited in the article, that the Feminist approach is a-historical and incorrect for this issue.
There were millions of women who were raped by the Russians, and that is worth studying, remembering, and is certainly bad, however, the rape of German and Nazi women should absolutly not be seperated from the fact that they started a war against the Russians with the intent of exterminating them. This is also supported by sources in the article and by other editors.
I also consider your incorrect pronoun use to be a personal attack, just as your claim that I am trolling you. I absolutly do not think that women should be raped, as you claim above. "that his completely unjustifiable position that women wanted to be raped" That is blatan libel (personal attack) and I also wish to report it.
--Anonyma Madel 01:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
"That is blatan[t] libel and I also wish to report it." - You might want to take a read of WP:NLT. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Psst... Anonyma Madel... I believe The Bushranger is subtly (or not so subtly) suggesting you redact and refactor the above comment, as making legal threats is a blockable offense until redacted. You can do so by using the strikeout tags (<strike>some text</strike>) around the text (since this is AN/I and you shouldn't remove comments after they have been responded to), then rewording it without the legal wording (such as libel). If not intended as such, it's still a good idea, as generally using such words will create such an interpretation. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


Escuse me, but you wrote "I think we also need to consider whether this is not just a case of hundreds of thousands of German women getting lucky with their liberators". Getting Lucky??? Liberators??? Your accusation of libel is, again, over-the-top and litigious. On my talk page you threaten me that if I do not offer you an apology, you will report me. Report me? Sorry, but this unnecessary drama is simply too much. My interpretation is hardly libel and it would be more productive if you were to lay off trying to report anybody and everybody who takes a moment to call you on your striking statements. I find it fascinating that you are obviously well-versed in Wikipedia, yet your account is relatively new. A quick look at the history of your talk page shows that the entire history of your account is full of arguments and similar discussions to ours over these same issues. You have a history of reporting and complaining about people who disagree with you - it's there in black and white.
Giving women a voice - ANY voice - is hardly in itself feminist! You are so eager to contextualize-away mass rape in Germany, but somehow you also have had arguments about the same issue with Red Army rapes in Poland. Interesting...Then you come up with a claim to be an ethnically German woman living in America - as if that (true or not) were to give you some license to spread positions that are academically indefensible and report those who would dare say anything against your statements.Udibi (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, both participants of the dispute are too emotional to carefully read and understand each other's posts. I suggest to move this content dispute back to the article's talk page, although I don't think resorting to such terms as "insane", "libel" or "troll" is justified here. Please, avoid using the emotionally loaded words, because that is just a demonstration of the lack of arguments. @ Udibi's "I then suggested one way in which the article could be improved by giving a more dry account of the issue initially, followed by the ample contextualization already provided in the article...", we can discuss it on the talk page. However, before we started, could you please read the sources cited in the article, especially such reliable secondary sources as Grossman's, Heinemann's and Bos' articles?--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your move to bring more civility to the discussion. However, the words "just a case of hundreds of thousands of German women getting lucky with their liberators" speak for themselves and can and must be condemned. If I made it too personal, it is merely because of my shock, not because of my intent. If I crossed that line, I am sorry. I do not know Anonymiss Madchen and cannot have anything against him/her personally, many of his/her statements, however, do warrant strong commentary.Udibi (talk) 01:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've just blocked Anonymiss Madchen (talk · contribs) for one week for trolling, POV pushing and personal attacks - I've included example diffs on their talk page, and this report seems to be another example of their trolling. I've also reviewed Udibi (talk · contribs)'s conduct in that discussion and it seems OK - while several other editors don't agree with the comments Udibi is making, they're being made reasonably civilly. I would suggest to Udibi though that you should either ignore or report trolling rather than respond to it in the future as it leads to heated and fairly unproductive discussions. Nick-D (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

This editor has a long history of disruption but has evaded censure by concentrating on articles which attract very little attention. Much of this has been directed against User:Paul Siebert who has not contributed to this discussion. I hope that this block will persuade her to behave better in future. TFD (talk) 03:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I had the same hope last time. I thought they had given up on this project as a soapbox. Drmies (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Ha, this was the time before last time. Drmies (talk) 03:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
As I noted at User talk:Anonymiss Madchen, I came close to applying an indefinite block here and it's likely that any further misbehaviour will lead to such a block. I've watchlisted their talk page. Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
@Nick-D - I am still learning Wikipedia etiquette and procedures. I have a feeing, for example, that there is a way I am supposed to tag you with this question. God forbid I should be in such a situation again, but just in case, how do I report trolling? Thank you for your suggestions and insight.Udibi (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
If another editor makes comments that are outrageously POV and clearly intended to provoke a response (like saying that German women deserved to be raped because of the conduct of the Nazis in Russia for example), then don't respond, just report it here, with a link to the diff of the trolling (and to this discussion if you can if its Anonymiss Madchen, someone with block him/her indefinitely). If in future you encounter an editor who is just randomly rude, try not responding - we seem to have a lot of otherwise very intelligent editors who are blighted by an inability to express themselves without cussing or snark, and one can sometimes still have a fruitful content discussion if one just ignores that aspect. If a discussion seems to be turning into a dispute, WP:DR contains advice on all the dispute resolution processes. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Editor removing others' comments at Talk:C. S. Lewis

Please see this removal by Yworo of another editor's comment in a discussion at Talk:C. S. Lewis. The underlying issue is how C. S. Lewis's nationality should be described, British or Irish. Lewis was born in Belfast in 1898, which is prior to 1921, which seems to qualify under some style guide for describing him as being born in Ireland (I haven't studied this carefully), but conducted most of his career in Britain. I've left two warnings for Yworo about removing others' comments from an article talk page, but cannot seem to get his attention. Yworo has removed other editors' comments twice from the article talk. Article talk pages are subject to the WP:Edit warring policy like any other page, plus Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, which I have to admit is a guideline not a policy. Advice on whether admins should formally caution Yworo would be welcome. EdJohnston (talk) 20:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I started a poll that clearly stated that it was a multiple proposal poll and that only support !votes were allowed. I consider that all editors who intentionally ignored these proposals to be intentionally disrupting the poll as presented. There have been claims that editors cannot construct a poll and then enforce the poll's formal form. I find that nowhere in policy. There have been claims that polls must allow oppose !votes. I also find that nowhere in policy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I personally feel that the multiple-proposal-support-vote-only-polls would be a much better way of weighing consensus than the current combination of endless discussion with support/oppose-polls than yield no clear result.
Also note, I started this poll before anyone brought up any policies which determined how C. S. Lewis should be described. Personally, I don't care if he is described as British, Irish, or even Martian. I do care about being able to conduct a poll as I describe it clearly in advance without it being disrupted by disruptive editors supported by admins without any policy basis for their actions. Voting "oppose" in a poll that specifically from the start excluded oppose votes is intentionally disruptive and talk page policy allows disruptive comments to be removed or moved to where they are no longer disruptive. Yworo (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment Really people, really? To EdJohnston, did you bring this up with Yworo and try to work this out before coming here? To Yworo, wouldn't it have been more suitable to simply move the comment/vote to the appropriate section, rather than simply removing it altogether. I haven't looked through the whole situation on the talk page, but a little more communication between the two of you would be desired, if this whatever you two are discussing is going to get worked out.--JOJ Hutton 20:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I notified Yworo twice and asked him to restore the comments by other people which he removed. You don't see those requests now on his talk page because he immediately removed them. EdJohnston (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I removed once, I added subheadings the second time rather than removing. Both were reverted by Snowded (talk · contribs). I've asked him on his talk page to support his actions with policy, but he seems unwilling or unable to do so. Yworo (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I looked through some of the revision history and the proposals on the talk page. I think I see what you were trying to do, and why you made those reversions. So I get it, "I" see your plan. Others may not have, but I don't think it was in the best interest of consensus to remove those comments, even if they were not the way t=you expected them to be. Those comments were made in good faith and it only appears that by removing those comments, (even if done in good faith on your part, which I believe), seemed to ultimately piss other people off, to put it bluntly. My advice to you is to be more careful in the future and maybe, if you ever create a poll like this in the future, add a section where other editors can express their displeasure at a particular proposal. Only my advice though, take it or leave it.--JOJ Hutton 20:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • This poll/!vote thing about nationality and citizenship is a shambles. Attributes should be determined by policy, including WP:RS not by a straw pole of editors. Leaky Caldron 20:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Agreed. The poll was started before such policies were brought up. It any case, with UK nationalities, this question is sometimes left to consensus when there is no determining policy. When I started the poll, I believed we had one of those cases. Yworo (talk) 20:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
it's worth checking the full edit history. Yworo deleted two oppose votes to an option then edited the article directly arguing that option had the strongest support on the basis of two votes one of which was a one time Ip. A review of his/her edit summaries is also instructive. Lots of snarky comments. It should also be noted that this took place AFTER the policies per style sheets had been posted. Some days after in fact so the above comment is shall we say, interesting.--Snowded TALK 21:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I posted the poll first at 00:13, 16 November 2011. You posted the first comment about "policies per style sheet" under the heading "Standards" at 01:01, 16 November 2011, almost an hour later. Please retract your disinformation. Yworo (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The reference is not to your setting up the poll, but to your deleting two opposes to an option, then editing the article on the grounds that two remaining positive votes (one of which was a one time IP) represented a majority view. You did that after the policy guidelines were posted. --Snowded TALK 10:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I also note that you have not at all addressed what policy gives you the right to override the stated conditions of a poll started by another user, as you did here, striking one of the stated conditions of the poll. Yworo (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Poll? Really? What ever happened to verifiability and reliable sources? What did Lewis call himself? Until we have sources which verify that, the best thing is to say that he was born in Belfast and lived in the UK. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 22:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The majority of reliable sources say "British". However, edit warriors kept changing this to Irish. Then all mention of nationality was removed. The article was originally based on reliable sources until a small handful of editors started to disrupt both the article and the talk page with the intent of changing this to Irish. There were a number of arguments for British, a number of arguments for Irish, there seemed to be no progress toward consensus. What's wrong with a poll in such an ambiguous circumstance? Yworo (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an editor should be able to remove other editor comments from an article Talk page unless it falls within one of the stated guidelines or is otherwise removable for policy reasons. Although I have some sympathy for Yworo's frustration, essentially, he's saying that by starting the poll, he owns the topic and can therefore control it. That can't be right.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Why can't an editor own a section in order to administer a poll by stated rules? Other editors have the whole rest of the talk page to make other comments. WP:TALK says that disruptive posts may be removed under Removing harmful posts. By definition, an "oppose" vote where such votes have been disallowed by the definition of the poll are disruptive, thus they may be removed. It is not really possible to simply leave the comments, as they subvert the counting mechanism using ordered lists. Yworo (talk) 23:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Ask yourself this: if you can remove oppose votes just because they're not part of your rules, what's to prevent your whole poll from being removed because it doesn't follow general talk page rules?
For that matter, what would the straw poll show, other than the most-preferred option? It would not demonstrate consensus to make a change; there'd then have to be discussion—open discussion, not just an up/down vote—on whether the option was supported by a consensus of editors. —C.Fred (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Yworo, if you read the entire part under "Removing harmful posts," it clearly wasn't intended to extend to posts that don't follow your rules, which, apparently, is your interpretation of "harmful" in this context.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Polls do not violate talk page rules. WP:POLL allows polls, states they should be clearly defined, and also states they should not be changed during the poll. If talk page rules prevent specific types of polling, there is something wrong with the rules and they should be modified to clearly allow a defined polling process. At the moment, there is nothing that prohibits defining a specific polling method when staring a poll. Starting a poll is not disruptive, responding to the poll outside the poll's stated process is disruptive. That's the difference. Yworo (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Best guidance I can find is WP:Prune. In other words, don't delete other editor's stuff. Leaky Caldron 23:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
WP:POLL also points out a number of pitfalls with polls, including that they stifle discussion that builds consensus. I think this situation has turned into a poster child for