Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive729

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Noticeboard archives

Contents

AWB usage suspended for Waacstats[edit]

Resolved: mistakes acknowledged and misunderstandings cleared up. You all go good now. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I have edited Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage and commented out Waacstats from the list of users. This should prevent Waacstats from using AWB until it is decided what to do about certain problems that have occurred recently.

  • On 14 Nov. Beyond My Ken warned Waacstats: "Lotfi Zadeh is an electrical engineer and computer scientist, he is not an 'artificial intelligence researcher'". I am not sure if that one was done using AWB as it does not include AWB in the string in the edit but other edits made by Waacstats with AWB don't always do so.
  • on 19 Nov. Wizardman You're spelling "baseball" wrong ... (20:24) Again, it's baseball rather than "basebeall" (20:41)
  • on 26 Nov. PBS. People who lived in the British Isles before the Act of Union 1707 were not British. So the change you made to William Heveningham(1604–1678) is not correct. [The article] says he was an English politician in the first line and the stub is {{England-politician-stub}} so how did you come to the conclusion that he was a "British politician"?

I then went to see how many articles Waacstats might of edited incorrectly and was surprised to see that Waacstats was editing 10 a second, so I pulled the plug, rather like hitting the stop button on a bot.

I have let a message on Waacstats's talk page:

suspended your AWB usage], for two reasons the first is that this talk page show that you have been careless on at least 3 separate occasions this month. But more worrying is that despite being warned about carelessness, you are making 10 edit a minute. There is no way in that time you can check the that changes you are making are correct. In your last 50 edits from

  • 08:28, 26 November 2011 m Didier Boulaud ‎ (→References: Add persondata short description using AWB)

to

  • 08:32, 26 November 2011 m Francis Hillmeyer ‎ (→References: Add persondata short description using AWB)

The minutes (28 and 32) my well bot be full minutes:

  • 28, 8 edits
  • 29, 10 edits
  • 30, 11 edit
  • 31, 10 edits
  • 32, 10 edits

(I've miss counted by on there are only 49 edits there)

I conclude that you have broken at least the first two of the Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser#Rules of use. I will follow this post up at WP:ANI, the suspension is like a bot stop, it may be on refection that you can have the privileged back very shortly it depends on the consensus but as an administrator seeing your caress edits on three separated occasion in less than 2 weeks I am not willing to let you change 10 pages a second while a consensus is reached at ANI.

OK what is to be done. This is the first AWB case I have dealt with so some guidence would be appreciated by my (and I suspect Waacstats). If the consensus among informed opion is that I have been over hasty with the suspension then someone can reinstate the line (and reverse the suspension) without waiting to here from me. -- PBS (talk) 11:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course nobody should edit war, and I'm all for shutting off AWB if someone is mis-using it, but Lotfi Zadeh is in fact an AI researcher. He was even recently inducted into the IEEE's AI hall of fame, per his biography. He is best known for work on fuzzy logic, which is an AI topic among other things. See also his CV which describes more of his AI work. I don't think BMK's warning was appropriate. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

IP 67 is correct, Zadeh lists "Artificial intelligence" on his faculty page as an area of research (something that I don't recall having seen there before, but I could well be mistaken.) Given that, I'm on my way over to the article to restore "Artificial intelligence researcher". I;ve extended an apology to Waacstats. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I personally am also not all that worried about the edit rate. He seems to be keeping it around 10 per minute which is the standard do not exceed threshold for AWB use. The typos do worry me a little though and would suggest they use more care when editing.--Kumioko (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
It depends on what one is doing. For example if is changing a category name from one to another and only making that change then little to no checking is needed. But changes like this need to be done much more carefully, because one has to check place and dates and probably categories. Also discussion will have to take place if a person was born in England but died in Great Britain, are they British English or both? -- This type of change can not be done at 10 a second. In the case of the article on Humphrey Edwards the mistake may have been made because the article is listed under "British politician stubs" (which is wrong). The point being that a the responsible thing to do is to weigh up the different pointers and then make an informed decision, one can not do that for this type of change consistently once every six second and be in any way sure that the changes made are correct. It would be useful if Waacstats would explain his section criteria for the articles he chose for this change and explained why it went wrong. Perhaps then we can work out how (s)he can safely use AWB without the collateral damage. -- PBS (talk) 07:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

As Beyond My Ken points out above they have since changed the description back to AI Researcher and I would like to say that my edit to that article was not done with AWB. Also with regard to the others, the misspelling of baseball was a genuine mistake and once I realised what Wizardman was on about I went back and corrected the misspelt edits I had made before continuing with the rest of the list. I admit that the run I did on British politicians was badly judged and I wrongly assumed that anything in Category:British politician stubs and it's stub cats could be described as a British politician and assumed that the Category:English politician stubs and Category:English MP stubs were much the same as other English stub cats and that there would be no problem calling them British, I accept that with hindsight this was completely wrong and I should have had more care. I have learned from this and it is obvious to me now why no-one else has attempted to remove this particular backlog, as it will almost certainly mean manually editing a further 680,000 articles+ but then I always liked a challenge. Waacstats (talk) 11:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

WaacstatsI have re-enabled your AWB privileges. It takes time for the page to load and save using AWB, you must have been hitting the save button without checking the changes you were making, so in future check your changes before you sav. -- PBS (talk) 03:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Admin attention requested: continuing unruly page moves[edit]

At Talk:5_O'clock_(song)#Requested_move the RM is surrounded by chaotic and undocumented moves of the article and similarly named ones – some into userspace. I have posted a note at WT:RM, but the matter is complex and beyond the capacity of non-admins to rectify. May we have some assistance? Perhaps restorative moves, and warnings to those involved? I have not notified any users of this post, because I can't easily track who has done what in the affair. NoeticaTea? 01:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In particular, could an admin please look at Jab7842's move log and see whether any useful articles were deleted after he(?) moved them into userspace. Jenks24 (talk) 04:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Bonowatcher[edit]

This person seems to have signed up just to make disparaging comments about Chaz Bono. On his or her talk page she made extremely insulting comments [1] and on the article's talk page he or she did the same. [2] I removed both comments and suggest that something be done about the abusive editor. Thanks. 76.204.91.45 (talk) 03:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, the user has been blocked indefinitely. 76.204.91.45 (talk) 03:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Bonowatcher is a sock of a banned user. Please feel free to report to me or AIV right away. Elockid (Talk) 03:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

AWB usage suspended for Waacstats[edit]

Resolved: mistakes acknowledged and misunderstandings cleared up. You all go good now. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I have edited Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage and commented out Waacstats from the list of users. This should prevent Waacstats from using AWB until it is decided what to do about certain problems that have occurred recently.

  • On 14 Nov. Beyond My Ken warned Waacstats: "Lotfi Zadeh is an electrical engineer and computer scientist, he is not an 'artificial intelligence researcher'". I am not sure if that one was done using AWB as it does not include AWB in the string in the edit but other edits made by Waacstats with AWB don't always do so.
  • on 19 Nov. Wizardman You're spelling "baseball" wrong ... (20:24) Again, it's baseball rather than "basebeall" (20:41)
  • on 26 Nov. PBS. People who lived in the British Isles before the Act of Union 1707 were not British. So the change you made to William Heveningham(1604–1678) is not correct. [The article] says he was an English politician in the first line and the stub is {{England-politician-stub}} so how did you come to the conclusion that he was a "British politician"?

I then went to see how many articles Waacstats might of edited incorrectly and was surprised to see that Waacstats was editing 10 a second, so I pulled the plug, rather like hitting the stop button on a bot.

I have let a message on Waacstats's talk page:

suspended your AWB usage], for two reasons the first is that this talk page show that you have been careless on at least 3 separate occasions this month. But more worrying is that despite being warned about carelessness, you are making 10 edit a minute. There is no way in that time you can check the that changes you are making are correct. In your last 50 edits from

  • 08:28, 26 November 2011 m Didier Boulaud ‎ (→References: Add persondata short description using AWB)

to

  • 08:32, 26 November 2011 m Francis Hillmeyer ‎ (→References: Add persondata short description using AWB)

The minutes (28 and 32) my well bot be full minutes:

  • 28, 8 edits
  • 29, 10 edits
  • 30, 11 edit
  • 31, 10 edits
  • 32, 10 edits

(I've miss counted by on there are only 49 edits there)

I conclude that you have broken at least the first two of the Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser#Rules of use. I will follow this post up at WP:ANI, the suspension is like a bot stop, it may be on refection that you can have the privileged back very shortly it depends on the consensus but as an administrator seeing your caress edits on three separated occasion in less than 2 weeks I am not willing to let you change 10 pages a second while a consensus is reached at ANI.

OK what is to be done. This is the first AWB case I have dealt with so some guidence would be appreciated by my (and I suspect Waacstats). If the consensus among informed opion is that I have been over hasty with the suspension then someone can reinstate the line (and reverse the suspension) without waiting to here from me. -- PBS (talk) 11:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course nobody should edit war, and I'm all for shutting off AWB if someone is mis-using it, but Lotfi Zadeh is in fact an AI researcher. He was even recently inducted into the IEEE's AI hall of fame, per his biography. He is best known for work on fuzzy logic, which is an AI topic among other things. See also his CV which describes more of his AI work. I don't think BMK's warning was appropriate. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

IP 67 is correct, Zadeh lists "Artificial intelligence" on his faculty page as an area of research (something that I don't recall having seen there before, but I could well be mistaken.) Given that, I'm on my way over to the article to restore "Artificial intelligence researcher". I;ve extended an apology to Waacstats. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I personally am also not all that worried about the edit rate. He seems to be keeping it around 10 per minute which is the standard do not exceed threshold for AWB use. The typos do worry me a little though and would suggest they use more care when editing.--Kumioko (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
It depends on what one is doing. For example if is changing a category name from one to another and only making that change then little to no checking is needed. But changes like this need to be done much more carefully, because one has to check place and dates and probably categories. Also discussion will have to take place if a person was born in England but died in Great Britain, are they British English or both? -- This type of change can not be done at 10 a second. In the case of the article on Humphrey Edwards the mistake may have been made because the article is listed under "British politician stubs" (which is wrong). The point being that a the responsible thing to do is to weigh up the different pointers and then make an informed decision, one can not do that for this type of change consistently once every six second and be in any way sure that the changes made are correct. It would be useful if Waacstats would explain his section criteria for the articles he chose for this change and explained why it went wrong. Perhaps then we can work out how (s)he can safely use AWB without the collateral damage. -- PBS (talk) 07:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

As Beyond My Ken points out above they have since changed the description back to AI Researcher and I would like to say that my edit to that article was not done with AWB. Also with regard to the others, the misspelling of baseball was a genuine mistake and once I realised what Wizardman was on about I went back and corrected the misspelt edits I had made before continuing with the rest of the list. I admit that the run I did on British politicians was badly judged and I wrongly assumed that anything in Category:British politician stubs and it's stub cats could be described as a British politician and assumed that the Category:English politician stubs and Category:English MP stubs were much the same as other English stub cats and that there would be no problem calling them British, I accept that with hindsight this was completely wrong and I should have had more care. I have learned from this and it is obvious to me now why no-one else has attempted to remove this particular backlog, as it will almost certainly mean manually editing a further 680,000 articles+ but then I always liked a challenge. Waacstats (talk) 11:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

WaacstatsI have re-enabled your AWB privileges. It takes time for the page to load and save using AWB, you must have been hitting the save button without checking the changes you were making, so in future check your changes before you sav. -- PBS (talk) 03:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Admin attention requested: continuing unruly page moves[edit]

At Talk:5_O'clock_(song)#Requested_move the RM is surrounded by chaotic and undocumented moves of the article and similarly named ones – some into userspace. I have posted a note at WT:RM, but the matter is complex and beyond the capacity of non-admins to rectify. May we have some assistance? Perhaps restorative moves, and warnings to those involved? I have not notified any users of this post, because I can't easily track who has done what in the affair. NoeticaTea? 01:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In particular, could an admin please look at Jab7842's move log and see whether any useful articles were deleted after he(?) moved them into userspace. Jenks24 (talk) 04:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Bonowatcher[edit]

This person seems to have signed up just to make disparaging comments about Chaz Bono. On his or her talk page she made extremely insulting comments [3] and on the article's talk page he or she did the same. [4] I removed both comments and suggest that something be done about the abusive editor. Thanks. 76.204.91.45 (talk) 03:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, the user has been blocked indefinitely. 76.204.91.45 (talk) 03:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Bonowatcher is a sock of a banned user. Please feel free to report to me or AIV right away. Elockid (Talk) 03:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Ducky socks, page protection[edit]

Resolved: Socks lost in the dryer, IP block applied. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this report would be rejected at SPI for being ducky, so I'm putting it here, plus a request for page protection together. Korean language has had 5 accounts try to insert the same unsourced fact over the last few days. The account names all have a similar style, staring with "Korea":

They've all been trying to dramatically increase the amount of Korean speakers in the infobox.--Crossmr (talk) 23:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

In the past, we've brought ducky socks here rather than open SPIs on them, I guess things have changed a bit.--Crossmr (talk) 22:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Persistent spammer[edit]

Resolved: Spam-Away™ applied. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

This user User:Niel Mokerjee, recently off f a several day block for edit warring, is creating WP:SPAM forks of Bengali Brahmins using various spellings in some kind of manouvre to promote his religiously based facebook group[5]. User has been warned numerous times at their talk. but persists. Heiro 21:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Blocked for one month. Cheers. Salvio Let's talk about it! 22:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Swat0120[edit]

Resolved: AIV in future please. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Can someone please take a look at the above apparently vandalism-only new account. Rangoon11 (talk) 16:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I left a level-3 warning. This should've really gone to WP:AIV.--v/r - TP 16:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack by Hipocrite[edit]

Hipocrite clarified, no further action needed --SPhilbrickT 19:19, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Related to the above discussion, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#HiLo_and_Pregnancy_Ban_Proposal, I have been called a "father-raper" by User:Hipocrite. I said in that thread that I wouldn't want my poor behavior to reflect on HiLo. I knew at the time of making the comments on Talk:Pregnancy that my behavior wasn't outstanding, but did not consider at the time that my comments would be used to block the folks I was disagreeing with. Hipocrite feels that my comments on the Pregnancy talk page were in fact strategically intentioned to get him (Hipocrite) blocked. He made a comment on this board here which I'm not particularly fond of but not really disgruntled about. It's the edit summary he used when he removed the comment here that has me upset. As a father of two young girls, I take particular insult to being called an incestuous rapist. I let quite a few things roll off, but this one of a bit on the obscene side. I've politely asked them to apologize and they've declined the opportunity.--v/r - TP 18:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

That TParis has not heard the song Alice's Restaurant reflects poorly on him. Not as poorly as the fact that he admits he disrupts Wikipedia to prove points, and attempts to anger people he disagrees with to get them to retaliate against him (ref: [6]). However, TParis has passed RFA, so he's allowed to do such things. Please, send me to the Group W bench, because yet another member of the civility police (for them, not for you) has had their fee fees hurt. Hipocrite (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to add that this diff by Hipocrite is rather WP:POINTY after the close of the Talk:Pregnancy RFC.--v/r - TP 18:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
No, it's not. It's adapting policy to follow practice. I know you like to disrupt Wikipedia to prove your points - I'm just a gracious loser. Hipocrite (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Sorry TParis, but in my opinion the distasteful comment ("Pass RFA and you could be a father-raper and still walk home") does not mean that he is saying you are one. Drmies (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Once again, someone who does something incivil and WP:NPA-ish refuses to admit to understanding. You can't just tell people they rape their daughters, even if you quote a song to do it. That sort of behavior is well beyond the pale, Hypocrite. If you can't prevent yourself from doing that, then perhaps someone could prevent it for you. The defense for telling someone they rape their daughters is that they "had their fee-fee hurt" is adding insult to injury. You know, if you were actually defending the correct position, Hypocrite, you wouldn't have to resort to such grotesque insults to defend your position. You'd actually have being right on your side. --Jayron32 18:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Point of order! Father-rapers rape their fathers. Further, Per Drmies, I never accused him of raping his daughters. Hipocrite (talk) 18:31, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • We're having this discussion why exactly? (Oh, Hipocrite, I had no idea about your Electra complex ;-D) Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 18:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Speaking of civility, the dude's name has an "i", not a "y". Tarc (talk) 18:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt, however, I retract any implied claim that TParis is a rapist of any sort. Hipocrite (talk) 19:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm good with that, thanks.--v/r - TP 19:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Athletics page vandalism[edit]

We in the Athletics Portal have had numerous problems with IP addresses vandalizing historical results pages. User:78.148.44.92 is doing it right now. I have just reverted a stack of their damage. This account should be blocked like the others who have tried to do this same kind of damage. Trackinfo (talk) 21:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

  • He seems to have stopped, but I dropped a 3-hour block on him just to be sure for now. ♠PMC♠ 21:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

MangoWong Block review[edit]

MangoWong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

I've just blocked MangoWong for 48 hours, for his latest in what I see as a long term campaign of thinly-veiled personal attacks and harrassment against another editor, User:Sitush. Sitush is one of a very small number of editors who have been working hard to improve our coverage of Indian topics, especially caste-related ones - they were originally horribly POV affairs, containing little more than the glorification of various castes, and now they are much better with neutral wording, reliable sources, etc.

In the course of this, Sitush and other content editors have been on the receiving end of quite a bit of abuse from various caste champions, pro-Indian nationalists, etc, a good few of whom have since been indef blocked. MangoWong has managed to get along by keeping his head just under the radar, thinly veiling his attacks, and being careful to avoid any individual attack that's been sufficiently egregious to warrant a block. But I think his low level of insults and insinuations has gone too far and constitutes harassment. Here are some examples...

  • This is the final interaction that led to his block, in which he said "On caste articles, as soon as someone shows any objection to your edits, they are automatically "canvassed from orkut", "caste warriors", 'more than a caste warrior", "do not know English", "do not know policy", are dogs, stupid, tendentitious, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, unbalanced, has COI etc. etc. etc. and what not". Firstly, bringing up disagreements on caste articles is nothing to do with the article being discussed, and appears to be an attempt to personally discredit Sitush. The accusation that Sitush called people "dogs" and "stupid" is particularly despicable, as he has done no such thing. And the rest is a misrepresentation of actual events - there really have been lots of socks, etc, and it's all supported by evidence (eg SPI reports). I warned him only about the "dogs" and "stupid" slur, to which he responded "You may say that Sitush did not use the word "dog", but then, I may say that he made that insinuation through some other phrase" ([7]), which again is blatantly untrue. Anyway, please do see whole discussion - I've included these extracts here as the article is at AfD and may soon only be visible to admins.
  • Unfounded accusation of "OR lies", "lynching" - [8]
  • Unfounded accusations of "bullshit quality sources, OR, misrepresentations, synthesis, misinterpretations etc. for S***** fixation and other defamatory material. ... endless amount of ABF, incivilities, accusationmongering, argumentativeness" - [9]
  • Unfounded accusations of "OR lies &/ synthesis &/ misrepresentations &/ unreliable sources &/ amateur sources &/ cherry picked sources &/ passing comment sources &/ off topic sources &/ misinterpreted sources &/ lead fixation &/ S***** fixation &/ defamatory material &/ undue material &/ sources with mysterious credentials", not specifically targeted, but it's clear who it's aimed at ("S*****" is "Shudra") - [10]
  • Unfounded accusation of "massive obsession with inserting defamatory material about Indian castes" - [11]
  • Unfounded accusation, "It is uncivil of you to keep asking people to leave WP. You don't own WP. Do you?", where Sitush has never asked anyone to leave WP as far as I know - [12]
  • Unfounded accusations, "It is well known that you three (Sitush, MatthewVanitas and yourself) have been exercising an overbearing influence on the entire topic of Indian caste articles. You three have been acting in tandem on all these articles and have acted in tandem to obtain blocks and bans on hordes and hordes of eds who have tried to edit these articles" - [13]
  • Throwing in "narrow minded colonial racist britishers" - [14]
  • Further unfounded accusations, including that Sitush and others "operate on the principle -- "Any Tom/Dick/Harry writes a book, says something defamatory/palikuluing about an Indian caste, becomes an RS." - [15]
  • Accusations of conspiracy - [16]
  • Accusations of "trying to get blocks and bans etc. and doing various forms of armtwisting on anyone who has disputes on you" - [17]

The examples above are only going back a relatively short time, but it's been going on for a fair bit longer and there are plenty more similar examples.

On a number of occasions, he's been asked to take his accusations to ANI or can them - to put up or shut up. But he won't (eg [18]), presumably because he knows he won't succeed. In fact, you can see his opinion of ANI here - "The ANI is a completely useless place. It is stuffed with limeys who have written British-Indian history articles from a whitewased British POV and are committed to keeping it that way".

As it says at Wikipedia:Harassment, "Harassment is defined as a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually (but not always) the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to discourage them from editing entirely. It seems clear to me that that is exactly what has been happening, and it has to be stopped.

So, I'd like to ask for opinions on my 48 hour block, and on whether any further action might be necessary at this stage (I shall now go and post notices on the Talk pages of people mentioned here). Thanks in advance. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Been a long time coming. An expert in poisoning the well to the extent that a WP:POISON could pretty much be written based solely on his actions. The only real surprise is that he was afforded quite so much good faith. Given the extreme unlikelihood that a two-week holiday will have the expected correctional impact I'd up it to indef. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Perfectly justified. The links above and a look at MangoWong's contribs give one side of the story. When MangoWong was asked to illustrate Sitush's crimes, he came up with this which I do not see as remotely equivalent - nor even problematic in any way. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 14:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Good block considering the circumstances; though I very much doubt 48 hours will do anything to change MangoWong's behaviour to any degree that could be considered acceptable. --Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 16:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes. Boing, your lengthy explanation is appreciated, and I wonder if it'll show up in an RfC/U at some point. Also, what Chris said. And Kim. And Jezebel. Now let me look at my archive to see what vile actions have been taking place there. I will tell you one thing: I don't know how Sitush deals with all that chain-janking and still improves those horrible articles. I vote that we pay for him to get a JSTOR account, and that will save me some time as well, haha. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Yep, I think we could see an RfC/U coming from this before too long - though with the endorsement I've had here so far I don't think I'd hesitate to quickly escalate blocks myself now, should this behaviour continue. And yes, Sitush has shown amazing patience and dedication - I'd certainly support a JSTOR account too (I do miss the one I used to have access to when I was an OU student) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Trivia corner: JSTOR was not available when I was a student, but I did have access to a magnificent erection". - Sitush (talk) 00:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Sitush, is that what she said or are you still talking about that toe of yours? Drmies (talk) 15:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Good block indeed. Too many a poisoning-the-well experts are let to do their "handiwork" when they stop just a hair short of obvious personal attacks. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I have been somewhat puzzled since MangoWong made the "dog" statement but I think that I have now found the connection. For the sake of clarity, given how bizarre it seems, within this series of ANI messages there are three which appear perhaps to be relevant.

...a failed SPI which caused pain to about half a dozen individuals. The initial comment in this section was an irrational threat. Unless someone can show that it is presently reasonable to block much/most of India.-MangoWong ℳ 05:31, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, diddums. I apologised. Some of those named were subsequently blocked for various reasons. Look, just drop this bone: there is no way that range is going to be blocked. Common sense should tell you that. - Sitush (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
That you apologized does not mean that it is sufficient to take away the pain you caused half a dozen people. That most of the others were subsequently blocked for various reasons only shows that you are expert in obtaining blocks on your opponents. just drop this bone That you think I am a dog only shows your severe problems with WP:CIVIL. there is no way that range is going to be blocked. Common sense should tell you that. Whether or not the range is going to be blocked or not, I do look at the initial comment in this thread as a seriously intended threat.-MangoWong ℳ 05:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The subject was wrt someone suggesting blocking the 117.195.x.x range (!), then someone brought up what was at that point the only SPI I had filed that had proven to be "no match" & which involved MW. It is all a little distasteful, sorry, but I know that many at the time recognised the amount of flak being fired in my direction & that of a couple of others who were trying to straighten out some caste articles. I may be a "good guy" but I do not have the patience of a saint & will grrrr eventually. BTW, the ANI report in question led to the topic ban of User:Thisthat2011. I haven't been able to find the evidence yet but I am sure that the bone/stick phrase had been explained previously, & TT2011 both had used it and used it subsequent to my message. MW had been supporting, and then defending, TT2011 vigorously. - Sitush (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Around that time we were getting socks almost daily, and MangoWong was supporting just about every one of them and was being abusive to the people trying to clean things up - I think this particular SPI was justified, even if it proved a negative. But at least we probably now know where he got the "dog" thing from - from his own misunderstanding of English idiom -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but this is partly why I have raised the issue. I might be committing wiki-suicide here but I do have a sometimes ridiculously honed sense of what is morally right/wrong. The entire systemic bias issue does, of course, include idiomatic phrasing & allowances have to be made for this. In my case, I ask when I do not understand/need clarification - examples of which MW has disparagingly referred to in the past being "straw man argument" and "Krishnaji" - but others may just jump in. If you look at it from this POV then MangoWong's comment makes a little more sense. At the extreme was a misunderstanding that appeared to cause them to connect "Bedside manner" to an accusation of User:Fowler&fowler somehow suggesting a pornographic connect - long story.
The problem is that the semantic obfuscation/wriggling that MW frequently exercises (as appears in part to be hinted at, for example, in the thread here) makes it clear, to me at least, that s/he does in fact have a reasonable command of the English language/idioms etc. MW can wikilawyer for [name your country here]. Also, MW was supporting TT2011 throughout this entire episode and therefore will have seen explanations of the term & that T2011 used it. I was just being open in declaring this situation. I do not know for sure that it is even the "accusation" to which MW was referring. - Sitush (talk) 00:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Sitush and Fowler and Fowler contributions go much beyond cleaning out articles , they are audacious onslaughts on previous content and content provided by other editors . Their presumption to higher erudition is misplaced , and arrogant as I have noted in my attempts to discuss his/her deletions of cited content in particular. In fact its sad( but exceedingly dexterous !) how it can be missed , to see how successfully Sitush along with Fowler and Fowler and several others can work in conjunction to turn an article on its head , concurrently and minutely examining content to retain and delete as per his/her frame of things , from an article and also horrendously miss glaring facts needing the same inspection . It would be completely inappropriate to see MangoWango blocked , but not surprising Intothefire (talk) 03:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Ummm...you might want to be careful, as your comment is nearly a personal attack itself. In a certain sense, though, you are correct--Sitush and F&F often do make strong "onslaughts" against previous content. That's because so much of the content in the topic area is unverified, non-neutral, or verified by sources that don't meet WP:RS. Our policies say that we should aggressively change, trim, and re-source such articles. MW can be good at this activity--he has done good work before--but he has gotten into a pattern, primarily with Sitush, of attacking rather than discussing, and of making strong claims of inaccuracy and poor sourcing but without showing a willingness (in some cases) of actually demonstrating those claims. It's especially disconcerting when MW says that a given source is terrible, that it shouldn't be in an article, but then refuses to go to WP:RSN to actually discuss the issue and get outside involvement. Couple that with the personal attacks, and we're where we are today. If you want to contribute constructively in the field, you'd be much better off not following MW's example. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I dont see the right to unilateral removal of properly cited content or removal without discussion as policy endorsed by Wikipedia , and I dont see Sitush or Fowler and Fowler having a special privilege to arbitrate validity of good or bad cited content without cogent reasons or discussion. See Deletion of cited content and citations from articles by Sitush
  • I also dont see justification for deliberately false reasoning provided for changes on articles.See Discussion on Talk Jat page with Fowler and Fowler.Qwyrxian your Admin interventions on articles and talk pages in my interactions with you where Sitush and Fowler and Fowler have been aggressively engaged could have been more constructive albeit if they were more balanced and thorough .Sorry the ban on Mangowong instead of the restraining on Sitush , Fowler and Fowler and Mathew Varitas is a classic example of bad judgment Intothefire (talk) 09:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Sigh...I won't draw this out unnecessarily, but all editors all have the "right to unilateral removal" of material that is improperly cited, that is uncited, or that is cited to unreliable sources. See WP:V. Of course, if others disagree, they shouldn't edit war...but once an issue has been discussed, and the other party refuses to attend to any form of dispute resolution, removal is the correct choice. And just to clarify, I did not block MangoWong, nor would I ever do so outside of a clear emergency (and then I'd seek review afterward). Nothing, though, prevents me from commenting on the actions of other admins. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Qwyrxian , your response is general , whereas I have provided a specific link to Deletion of cited content and citations from articles by Sitush as well as Discussion on Talk Jat page with Fowler and Fowler , if you are defending Sitush and Fowler and Fowler , then please respond in specific reference to diffs provided and content thereon , Mangowong is hung on specific charges of bothering Sitush , so its only fair that specific instances of Sitush and Fowler and Fowler edits are put up to the same level of specific editorial inspection otherwise we have a witch hunt here. I may know little on the subject , but I know enough to see how these two along with and several others have really bothered various editors and I am willing to provide many more specific instances .Although I have myself been the recepient of a warning from Mangowong , I see the ban on him here is absurd and shallow , with justice really miscarried whereas the hammer should should have clearly fallen elsewhere. Intothefire (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Intothefire, MangoWong has not been banned but rather has been blocked for 48 hours. He had previously had a 24 hour block in July, and the nature of blocks is that they tend to become longer if the contributor continues to make similar infractions of policy etc. I think that if you want to raise issues regarding my conduct or that of Fowler&fowler then probably you should start another thread. NB: Fowler&fowler is not contributing at the moment due to real life issues & so discussion of his actions may be tricky. - Sitush (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Lol ,Earlier when I was having a discussion with you Qwyrxian said you were going to be absent , now you say Fowler and Fowler is going to be absent so discussing his edits is tricky, .I find this musical chairs syndrome tricky . No this block is completely misdirected but emblematic . Intothefire (talk) 13:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Please assume good faith. - Sitush (talk) 13:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I appreciate the support here folks, thanks. I was a little wary due to the sensitivity of some India-related articles, so my block was quite lenient and I possibly went further than necessary with the amount of evidence. But I feel confident now to impose escalating blocks should the same behaviour continue. And if anyone has any dispute with any future admin actions I might take in this area, I am always open to discussion and will be happy to respond to any civil approaches - and will fully cooperate with any discussions here on this board, or in any other relevant forums. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
You mean, you want to be adminning those caste articles which Sitush will be editing? MW 02:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as I don't use the admin tools over a content issue that I have taken part in. And it's nothing to do with Sitush specifically. I have been providing admin supervision of a number of India-related articles for some time, and have acted against a number of editors whose behaviour is contrary to Wikipedia policy, sometimes egregiously so - socks, personal attacks and harassment, etc. And I will continue to do so, whoever they are and whomever they attack. Anyway, if you have a complaint about my actions, or anyone else's, you have been told a number of times what you should do - make an ANI report, or start an RfC/U, and have the admin corps/community decide -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as I don't use the admin tools over a content issue that I have taken part in. Does that mean you can be an admin on a content issue you have not participated in, even if you have otherwise been editing other content in the same article?-MW 15:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
That's what it means. As I've told you before MW [19], just because someone has edited the same article as you have, it doesn't mean they are too involved to block you for personal attacks. Your habit of accusing people of making this attack or that, without providing supporting diffs, can certainly lead to your being blocked by any admin. I suggest you try to understand this. --regentspark (comment) 16:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Please allow Boing! said Zebedee to answer the question. The issue you are clarifying is different from what BSZ is saying. BSZ is not talking about performing admin actions "in case of PA". BSZ appears to saying that it is OK to perform admin actions on content issues that BSZ has not edited, even if BSZ has edited other content in the same article. Clear?MW 16:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
See WP:INVOLVED. If you ever believe you see me violate it in my admin actions, raise a report in the appropriate venue. Over and out. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Isn't it true that you and Sitush are from the same country, and live within 50 km of each other? That you have been supporting Sitush through and through, and the caste articles have been in flames ever since you two took to them? That you have claimed the right to be an admin in a caste article (Kurmi) after you had edited it (incidentally, to reinsert a misrepresentation which I had deleted) ?-MW 02:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Trying to make a case of admin abuse out of this issue is not going to work. Particularly in cases involving POV pushing in articles related to groups of people, admins are welcome to follow the case and take action as required. It is often necessary for some admin involvement to occur because completely uninvolved editors find it too hard to get up to speed with the complex back and forth. Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Other admins have been doing their stuff on these articles, btw. Examples include User:Drmies, User:Salvio giuliano (who issued you with your first block), User:Ohnoitsjamie, User:SpacemanSpiff, User:C.Fred. I stress, those are just examples, and to my certain knowledge not all of them live in the same country as myself. I guess that I now have to notify all of those named. - Sitush (talk) 03:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Sitush, just to make sure that it doesn't appear we're involved, I won't say hi to you in the pub tonight. Also, these accusations on MangoWong's part are making my wife suspicious. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Now that you seem to have acknowledged that both of you are from the same country, would you like to clarify whether you and BSZ live within 50 km of each other or not?-MW 04:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. Drmies (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Why? You are being rude and, yet again, assuming bad faith. Location is not relevant, as should be obvious from the list that I have already provided. However, if you or anyone else wants to call on me and share a cup of tea then you are more than welcome. Carry on like this and you may find yourself with a break that would facilitate such a visit. - Sitush (talk) 04:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Just to be clear here: right after returning from a block for well-poisoning (with strong support), MW turns up at the ANI thread for said topic and begins trying to pin INVOLVED status on the admin who blocked him based on evidence-free insinuations of meatpuppetry? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In a word, yes. Evidence-free insinuations are MW's stock in trade. JanetteDoe (talk) 17:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I've re-blocked MangoWong, for a month this time. Fut.Perf. 19:31, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Once again, I appreciate the support shown here - thanks folks -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Could an admin either semi-protect Talk:Nair, or do a rangeblock? It's attracting unambiguous PA's from from an IP. JanetteDoe (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Talk page semi-protected, abusive edits rev-deleted -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
For the sake of clarity, in the event that this thread is referred to if/when MW returns in a month or so, I don't think that the postings of the last few days at Talk:Nair were by MW using some other guise. The wording/style etc was way, way different. I shall visit my mother later and see if there is any smoke/flames/redness around her ears. - Sitush (talk) 06:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
The author of that rather childish stuff geolocates to somewhere in the US - the IPs belong to Opera Software ASA -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
PS: If anyone sees personal attacks on articles like this, please do feel free to drop me a line on my Talk page too - I might not be around, but if I am I'll act quickly -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Mughal Lohar[edit]

(unarchiving as unresolved)

I'm reviving this thread concerning the behaviour of Mughal Lohar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). I've been attempting to engage him in conversation about his unexplained image changes and removal of sourced content [20], and my efforts have been met with allegations of racism [21], [22]. I see from this user's talkpage that they have a history of non-communication, copyright violations and sockpuppetry, among other problems. It would help if some users here could keep an eye on him. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 11:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

He doesn't appear to be calling you racist - he's suggesting that the image in question is a "racist depiction", as far as I can tell -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Zebedee ... nobody is being called a racist, however, the WP:OWN, WP:PUFFERY, non-WP:NPOV and slow-WP:EW has led to a brief block ... apparently his second this month alone. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Yep, good call -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
No, I think you may be right. I didn't want call him out for personal attacks because I wasn't quite certain of his intent. I figured other sets of eyes would see it, if it was there. Thanks for taking a look. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 12:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


Request for further block or ban[edit]

I am taking a short break from my Wikibreak to comment here and to ask for further action. There have been problems with this editor for some time, from copyright violation to failure to communicate to his even when told not using proper references (no details of books, just links, sometimes to snippets). He's been asked to use edit summaries a number of times, for instance, and still doesn't. I suspect he is still inserting copyvio but this is not always easy to check. Please also take a look at my talk page - it's complaints there that have brought me out of my break to ask for more action. Certainly if he doesn't respond here and satisfy editors that he is going to change his ways I'd go for an indef ban until he does. I'd be happy to have his block lifted so that he can discuss here if he agrees not to do any article editing fur at least the duration the block was supposed to last. Dougweller (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I've got suspicions about some of the phrasing in his Siege of Bijapur article (i.e., that it's copyvio), but he seems to be tweaking things just enough that it can be difficult to trace. Kafka Liz (talk) 14:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Doug, I was concerned that bare URLs were being used in, for example, Muhammad Shah which pointed to google search snippet view for a rather generic search term; and I am not convinced that the snippets support what he actually says in the articles. Nor is it easy to see to which particular statements an end of paragraph reference refer. Two articles recently created also either point to a generic google books snippet view, or simply to the entry for a whole book, without giving page numbers. Thanks again and sorry to disturb your break, eric. Esowteric+Talk 15:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
And despite being asked to follow our guidelines for copying from other Wikipedia articles, he continues to copy and paste without attribution (and he uses other articles as sources). Dougweller (talk) 15:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Snippet view example: In Aurangzeb, this edit diff introduces a Google Books snippet view for the very broad search phrase "aurangzeb" in the book. There are 91 results and no page number is given.
This is used to support the sentence: "Shah Jahan fell ill in 1657, Aurangzeb's elder sister Raushanara Begum appropriated his seal to ensure that he would not involve himself in any possible war of succession."
I could not find anything like this in the snippets. A narrower search for the word "seal" does not appear to yield something that will support the above sentence (unless say, the word seal occurs again, further down the same page).
Page 50 and page 153 come the closest:
p50: "Her younger sister Raushanara fell out of favour with their brother Aurangzeb because whilst he was ill she took over the Great Seal and signed decrees in his name."
p153: "During the crisis sparked by Shah Jahan's illness, Raushanara apparently appropriated Aurangzeb's seal to ensure that his seal was on all decrees, to establish him as his father's legitimate successor."
What Mughal Lohar writes could well be correct, but it is not at all easy to verify. It could be that he's initially searched for (say) "aurangzeb", then carried out a different search, but not adjusted the reference's URL accordingly? Or I could be getting this wrong. Regards, eric. Esowteric+Talk 11:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(od) I suspect there is some block evasion going on as well [23].--regentspark (comment) 13:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's him, mainly due to the differences in geolocation between this and known IPs. This one also actually tries to communicate primarily via the talkpage, which Mughal Lohar seldom does.
In any case, he's fresh off his block and reinstating his preferred versions to Suleiman the Magnificent and Aurangzeb, again without discussion. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see post-ANI entry on his talk page, about what to me is a bizarre use of snippet view. Esowteric+Talk 19:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC) diff for ease of reference

Few mentions show as snippets. Maybe there's a random element to what snippets are returned? Esowteric+Talk 19:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm still laughing about the nuts and prostitutes. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Advice on use of Google book search by Jayen466: I asked an experience editor, Jayen466 about the use of snippets, and this is what he said on his talk page:
"It's often possible to find a text match in a Google Books search which is shown as bold text in the Google Books search listing. However, if you click on the search hit and the book has snippet view only, the snippet shown will only be the nearest one available to the relevant passage that Google Books found. Sometimes you're lucky that your search string is in a displayable snippet, sometimes not. Generally, it doesn't make sense to link to a snippet display if the snippet doesn't show the relevant text. The book may well contain a relevant passage on that same page though. However, there is another thing that has to be said: if you haven't got the physical book, and you don't have a Google preview spanning several full pages in context, it is quite risky to add anything to a Wikipedia article just based on having seen a snippet, either in the Google Books search listing or in snippet view. Context may be all-important (the book may quote a discredited theory, or you may fail to realise that the whole passage is intended as humour, etc.). So it's not a way of working that should ever be used, except in the most straightforward cases (like finding a birth date in a reputable dictionary of biography with snippet view). These days, Amazon (linked to from Google Books) has Look Inside enabled for many books. Using both Google Books and Amazon in tandem is often worthwhile. --JN466 20:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)" Esowteric+Talk 09:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Blocked him indefinitely (which is not a ban, it's simply a block that can be lifted at any time. I've no problem if anyone wants to unblock him, but he really does need to start communicating better and I don't see any other way to get him to do this. He also needs to stop this type of use of snippets and sources. I hope that people will copy any responses on his talk page to here (I really am trying to keep by Wikibreak and wno't be around in any case, contact me by email if vital). Dougweller (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Block seems fine, though you really should leave a note on his talk page. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 20:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


Odd I wrote one something went wrong. Done now. Dougweller (talk) 22:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

User requests unblocking: Hi, Mughal Lohar requests unblocking: "i honestly didn't know anything about the snippets law." Can someone handle, please? Esowteric+Talk 10:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, he has previously been advised at least twice about the problematic nature of the Google books snippets, both on his talkpage five days ago and on the Arangzeb talkpage two days ago. I'm not sure "I honestly didn't know" is a legitimate defense. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
My mention of snippet view verifiability is probably detracting from the real issues, which have yet to be addressed, actually: slow edit warring, lack of edit summaries, uncommunicativeness; etc. Could be that the user doesn't quite know what's expected of him now, re unblocking? eg a statement recognizing the issues and a commitment to rectify?Esowteric+Talk 13:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, he's been spoken to repeatedly about all these issues, as well as the importance or reliable sources. He certainly should know what the problem is - I just don't know if he understands that he needs actually to listen to what others say and learn to work in a more collaborative way. Nothing he's said yet indicates that.Kafka Liz (talk) 13:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I have declined the unblock request. I agree with Kafka Liz: the editor does not seem to have taken in at all what others have said. JamesBWatson (talk) 15:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Nice catch. They certainly have similar interests. Interesting. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:31, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Lucy-marie (talk · contribs) sockpuppetry[edit]

Resolved: Indeffed.

The Cavalry (Message me) 14:31, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I have blocked Lucy-marie (talk · contribs) for one month for vandalising while logged out, as well as using Somali123 (talk · contribs) as a  Confirmed sockpuppet. Somali123 is indeffed, but I'd like an opinion from the community on whether a one month block for Lucy-marie is appropriate, or whether it should be upped to indef based on the long-term disruptive history of Lucy's editing. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I personally feel that based on their long history of disruptive activity, the fact that this is the second sockpuppet they've used before, and the fact that they've operated this sockpuppet since 2007, that an indef block should be considered. As a disclosure, myself and Lucy have differing views on content and indeed have in the past had an adversarial relationship, so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't feel that I am alone in my feelings, as her talk page and archives show. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:13, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I previously blocked Lucy-marie (talk · contribs) for abusive sockpuppetry years ago, and let him/her off the hook with a final warning. The socking in question was quite disruptive, and if it's happening again, then I think it's time for an indefinite block. That said, I haven't followed this account closely over the years, so if there are mitigating factors I'd be open to hearing them. MastCell Talk 01:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Having looked through her and her sock's edits a bit tonight, I'm wondering why she hasn't received a formal ban or at least been indef blocked. Just from looking at User:Somali123's edits, I see disruption, vandalism (and really, calling Heather Mills a (edit) bad name is so 2009), ignoring consensus, vile racism, and distasteful ethnocentrism. If a new editor did this, he/she'd be gone in four edits, and rightly so: this editor is damaging the project. An indef block would protect the project, a formal ban even more so. --NellieBly (talk) 08:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
By poor man's checkuser (and the deafening quacks), 95.147.55.213 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is L-M. I think an indef is appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 10:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support indef block Using a bad hand sock for four years for disruption, edit warring against consensus, vandalism and BLP violations is bad enough, even ignoring the sock was created just after a month after a previous disruptive sock of Lucy-marie's had been blocked. 2 lines of K303 14:19, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Admin restoration and peacockification of article deleted at AfD[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The OP, Delicious carbuncle, has agreed that this does not have to be discussed here further. Further discussion about the newly fixed article can be done at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tyler Shields (2nd nomination). --Jayron32 23:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Tyler Shields was deleted following Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tyler Shields. I was surprised to see it resurrected today by admin User:TParis, but deleted articles are sometimes improved in user space and restored. This is not the case here. In the edit which restored this article, TParis also added the peacock word "famed" to the lede. That same edit contains the addition of the sentence "Shields has been called Hollywood's "favorite photographer" by the Daily Mail". The reference used contains no such phrase (plus, it's the Daily Mail). Additionally, they have restored spurious "world record" claims, this time placing them in the lede.

I have not discussed these concerns with TParis. Even if they addressed the issues with the current state of the article, this will do nothing to explain why an admin is taking actions such as these in the first place. I would not expect these types of edits from an experienced user, but they are completely unacceptable form an admin and are puzzling when the article was so recently deleted. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Step 1 should still be discussing this with TParis. --OnoremDil 18:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Had you discussed it with me first, I would've pointed out that I was the first AFD's deleting admin and I discussed it with the deleting admin from the relisted (after I reverted my close) deleting admin who agreed that "it sounds open-and-shut enough not to need a DRV". Further, "favorite photographer" was used in the article's title, which I included in the citation. Famed may be wrong for the lead, it was spotty editing at best and I would've fixed it had you simply asked or done so by yourself.--v/r - TP 18:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
My concern is not that the edits you made could not be easily fixed, but that you restored an article recently deleted at AfD and proceeded to add puffery from a dubious source which did nothing to address the reasons why the article was deleted. The consensus there seemed to be that while the subject was good at generating controversy, they were not notable as a photographer. You removed the sentence "Shields has no formal training as a photographer and uses many varying styles" (sourced incidentally to the subject's own site). You restored the bogus "world record" claims and moved them into the lede. I presume this was your impetus. This looks like more of a puff piece than when it was deleted by consensus. Perhaps this should have gone to DRV first? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
(Incidentally, can someone restore the talk page of the article? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC))
(edit conflict) I removed the sentences supported by self-published sources. "No formal training" can be a good thing and a bad thing and I figured since there was a POV tag on the article and it was sourced to the subjects's own webpage that it was considered promoting the photographer. As far as not notable as a photographer, apparently that has changed. This article might be of worth to you where it says "For the actresses, being shot by Shields is a subversive status symbol." As far as the "Personal Life", the content was originally in the "Career" section and I was moving things around. I hadn't intended to leave that part in the lead. I was correcting it. Since you've removed it, I don't think it's a problem anymore. This could've all been discussed on my talk page. I've also restored the article's talk page.--v/r - TP 19:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I've just removed the "Legal matters" section as well. Those generally discouraged on BLPs, so I'm mystified as to why you -- an admin -- would create one. Again, I could easily have fixed the problems, but I don't think that I should need to keep AfD-deleted article on my watchlist in case an admin decides to restore them and turn them into puff pieces. I'll send this back to AfD and let others decide. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Since I restored it at 17:31 GMT and then got caught up in the above issue with User:Hipocrite at 17:37 GMT, I think it is excusable that I had not finished working on it in the last 2 hours.--v/r - TP 19:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
You created a section entitled "Legal issues". It was not present in this version, but appears in this version (I do not know why the diff does not display this). Did you intend to come back later and delete that section? You added a peacock term to the lede. Did you intend to remove it later when you had more time? You reinserted information about a "world record" that has no justification other than the subject's own claim. Did you put it in the lede because you were short of time? None of your explanations hold water. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I neither created the Legal issues section (see this version before I touched the article) nor did I reinsert any information. I restored the article and I was working on it. You need to take a closer inspection before accusing me of these things. I'll admit to putting "famed" in the lede, since I did do it and all, and I'm chopping it up to "I was still working on it". I was still playing with it and deciding how I wanted to use it.--v/r - TP 19:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
"Legal matters" was created in this edit by User:Northamerica1000. Thanks.--v/r - TP 19:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I know why you mixed this up. In your first diff, there was a citation issue preventing the "Legal matters" from being visible. I fixed a citation issue with this edit which made it visible. That's where the confusion is.--v/r - TP 19:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
You are right. There seems to be little point discussing this further. Let's chalk it up to lack of time, as you suggest. I'll let the AfD sort out the article. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Appears to me to be a reasonable REFUND, given the additional events since the AfD. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I have a problem with user 46.196.33.96[edit]

Resolved: causa sui (talk) 17:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I have a problem with user 46.196.33.96. This user has changed things in the article (Ben Gurion Airport) without any proof (and these things are not true...). I wrote to him twice and i asked to give his evidence on the talk page of value but he didn't answer me and continued to change. I put my proof today on the talk page of the article. I'd love if you do something about it --Friends147 (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There's an open thread on the talk page. If the IP doesn;t respond in a reasonable timeframe, feel free to revert referencing the talk page. There's no point going to ANI on the very first revert. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 20:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I spoke with an admin and he sent him a warning. --Friends147 (talk) 09:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Angry Video Game Adult[edit]

We have an editor who is recreating Angry Video Game Adult (ins some cases as AVGA). This editor initially used the account User:Josephnintendonerd to create multiple versions of this article. The article is unsourced and is clearly inappropriate. After three attempts yesterday as Josephnintendonerd, the article has appeared again, this time created by User:Angry Video Game Adult. I've tagged this new user as a sockpuppet of Josephnintendonerd, on the basis of a loud quacking sound. The new version of the article is, rightly, tagged for speedy deletion. Could I ask for a salting of the two article titles? I don't see any likelihood of this subject reaching close to our notability requirements and it appears clear it will be recreated after deletion under on account or another. Thanks for the consideration, Sparthorse (talk) 07:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Both salted. Not sure how to handle the possible socking. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I suspect that this is a single purpose editor that will go away once they get the message that we're not going to accept the article. I'll keep an eye on both accounts' contributions and open an SPI case if they start moving into other areans. Again, thanks, Sparthorse (talk) 07:28, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Angry Video Game Adult and gave a warning to User:Josephnintendonerd not to do it again. –MuZemike 14:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Astrology discussion snowing[edit]

There has been discussion at WP:FTN, on Talk: Scorpio (astrology) and elsewhere about a template that has been added to all articles on astrological star signs that some of us consider to be unencyclopedic because it involves repeating the same chunk of information in each article, some of that information being poorly sourced.

I commented at length, and I think patiently, on the question, and suggested that WikiProject Astrology was the place to sort out whether the template was encyclopedic or not.

On 24 November, User:Zachariel (Zac) notified members of WikiProject Astrology of a discussion. To be fair, he did post on the WikiProject talk page, saying simply "Need for discussion of issues has been put to WP:Astrology project members". He didn’t post about the discussion on WP:FTN where this was under consideration or notify me or anyone who had contributed at FTN. I had explained that I wasn't going to join the project but would contribute there from time to time.

My first impression was that Zac’s notification of individual editors had been very selective. I posted in a new section on the WikiProject talk page to say there was prima facie of vote-stacking. On investigation, it does turn out that he notified each member of the project. It has taken me hours to sort out who was and wasn’t a project member, or notified, mainly because so many listed project members are inactive, and several have changed their usernames. Most listed haven’t edited anywhere on the encyclopedia for years, some are blocked, and he himself is still listed under his previous username.

Zac also notified three people who aren’t project members. User: Ihcoyc, User:Lighthead and User:Prof.Landau. The last of these has not been editing for a long while. I don’t know why the other two were notified.

What may be of concern is that since the discussion was opened, in the last three days, five new members have joined the project: User:AxelHarvey, User:Dwayne, User:Logical 1, User:Robertcurrey, User:Ken McRitchie.

Zac introduced the discussion with a very long post, containing his own interpretation of my view, using only one of the three examples that I had given as typical.

Then various editors snowed in to support his position. They include three of the five new project members: User:AxelHarvey, a few minutes before joining the project; User:Robertcurrey, commented on 24 November, added his name on 26 November; User:Ken McRitchie, commented on 25 November, added his name on 26 November.

Most of those commenting in the thread declare themselves on their user pages as professional astrologers or writers on astrology, or are easily identified as astrologers active on the Internet.

I see few arguments that address the actual question: whether a WikiProject should recommend a template that involves repeating the same text across a number of articles.

Would you please advise whether this amounts to vote stacking? Any other advice about how to move forward on article quality would also be appreciated. Thank you. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

  • I've been following developments off and on through an editor I have worked with the past who's involved (User:Bobrayner). It appears that the Astrology project has been trying to add questionably sourced content to articles; the discussion in question would allow that questionable content to stay. Bob, who has a history of removing questionably sourced content, attempted to remove the questionably sourced content, but was reverted by Astrology editors. I feel that the content in question needs to be discussed in a full community noticeboard where editors not involved in the Astrology project but familiar with verifiblity and reliable source guidelines can weigh in Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 17:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
    • This is unsurprising. Robert Currey recruits editors from offsite to meatpuppet for the pro-astrology point of view.[24] This is a serious problem, and I suggest that discretionary sanctions be applied liberally on these articles. Involvement of the larger community via RFCs has also been effective in limiting the damage this behavior causes. Skinwalker (talk) 17:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

How does this get moved forward to resolution please? An RfC is already open on Astrology. I have raised the issues on talk pages, on RSN, FTN and now the WikiProject. Non-admin users who are willing to wade in to try and sort the mess out, by improvement to the articles, quickly become seen as "involved". Itsmejudith (talk) 17:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I dunno...you started this thread. Skin, it sounds like you feel that Robert Currey should be blocked for meatpuppetry Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 17:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Probably not, it's practically impossible to get support for a meatpuppetry block - even in patently obvious cases. I think RFCs and topic bans are more tenable and effective solutions. Skinwalker (talk) 19:06, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean Template:Zodsign1? That is an odd template William M. Connolley (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

An RfC is a good step, though I don't see one active on the Astrology talk or on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astrology related to this template (to get one active such that the community notices it, you need to use the instructions here). So, open one of those. I'm going to accompany that suggestion with a non-partisan warning that the next person or people I see revert-warring on Template:Zodsign1 is/are getting blocked for edit-warring. Having an RfC open, if one indeed is, does not give anyone license to revert anything to their preferred version. This is not directed at anyone in this thread in particular, but at everyone involved in this entire thing: the warring is going to have to stop, now. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

  • I am not formally a member of the astrology project, but I have done some editing on astrology related pages. My take on this is different. There is a large body of available public domain text that's recognized by astrologers as significant and authoritative, including works by Claudius Ptolemy, William Lilly, and Alan Leo. This material is available for wholesale import and updating, and meets all the usual tests for being a reliable source. I'd like to be more involved in updating and expanding the pages with information from these sources, but the pages have been lawyered to death by the "sceptical" contingent. A large number of editors, including a number of IP editors, remove content willy-nilly, and post dismissive messages claiming that astrological sources are from an "in universe" perspective, as if astrology were a fictional subject. The template's an attempt to respond to one recurring cavil, concerning the difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 18:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I have to agree with Smerdis here. There are reliable sources for the description of astrology, both ancient and modern. This is a separate issue from whether astrology is a pseudoscience: even if it is, it is only correct to describe astrology and its history from the sources the field itself considers reliable. I have observed some of these sources rejected by overactive skeptics. For a long time we did not have a good historical picture of Gnosticism: due to the elimination of "heretical" sources, we had only the descriptions written up by Gnosticism's opponents. A full description of astrology and its terms must be done from its own sources. Scientific analysis of its claims should certainly be included, but the basic description can't be restricted to such modern scientific criticism. That would defeat the purpose of an encyclopedia. Yworo (talk) 18:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

First, I would like to clarify that I have commented on the Astrology Project discussion six times since August and being on my Watch List it is of interest. I did not add my name to the list of members of the project originally as nothing seemed to be happening and I considered that further highlighting my interest would be used against me as indeed it was today with Itsmejudith's comments. When Zac made this proposal and others followed, it felt appropriate to add my name.

Second, Skinwalker - this is the third time you have accused me of meatpuppetry or recruiting editors using this same link from March. Anyone who reads the public link, which I have not taken down, will see that I was not recruiting editors and if anything, advising people to follow the WP rules and not to go to the Astrology Page to edit war simply because other editors had been banned. As far as I know no one became an editor as a result of those comments on a Facebook page and I challenge you to find a WP editor. If you feel that there is a case against me, then you should go through the proper channels and I will answer it. It is time to put up or shut up. I believe it is quite wrong to take advantage of the fact that an editor does not have the protection of being anonymous to dredge up external information in an attempt to make something out of nothing. Robert Currey talk 23:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Both of you are involved editors, at least as involved as I am. I already raised the primary source nature of ancient, medieval and early modern writers. There is extensive historical research on these periods, and that's what we should be using. Having articles restricted to modern scientific criticism is just a red herring. We are talking about history here. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
This is an example of the sort of lawyering that gets in the way of building these articles constructively. Whether you label Lilly, Leo, or Ptolemy as primary or secondary sources is should be a matter of indifference. They are treatises. Their texts are recognized by astrologers as foundational authorities. All of them write as the presenters of an established tradition, not as doing original research in astrology. If you object that astroiogy is a pseudoscience and doesn't use empirical methods, you don't get to complain that the authorities consulted are out of date. The main focus of an article on Scorpio (astrology) ought to be "What does astrology say about Scorpio"? When you have reliable public domain material that we can adapt easily, we should grab with both hands. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 23:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Oh, go on, use the Ptolemy, then. Of course you're thoroughly familiar with it in the original ancient Greek. You've read all the relevant literature in Classical Arabic, Latin, Old French and Middle English. Of course you have. Itsmejudith (talk) 02:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Meatpuppetry is a valid concern. One of my attempts to cleanup astrology articles was very swiftly undone by an editor who created their account earlier this year, during the previous campaign of ballot-stuffing and meatpuppetry by astrology editors, and who has only made a handful of edits since then - turning their userpage and talkpage into bluelinks, and then voting in astrology-related polls... bobrayner (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
    Meanwhile, we have all too many articles which look like [25]. When I try trimming some of the cruft or doing some minimal rewording so it's presented as "Astrologers believe that..." rather than a statement of fact, I'm usually reverted by an astrology editor on the pretence that the content is backed by some imaginary or manufactured "consensus" or that there's no justification for cleanup. Sometimes even blatant fiction gets reverted into articles; content that's incompatible with even schoolkid physics, but the text looks nice to an astrologer... Personally, I would be happy to see a historical subject presented neutrally, but quite often astrology articles fail to do so. bobrayner (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Everything I've read here and on the project page suggests to me that wikiproject is rogue - either via POV-pushing or straight forward incompetency the main people involved in it seem to blundering around with no idea what a wikipedia article should be - that template they created and all thought was a great idea is a disgrace. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the project should be disbanded, then. It sounds like a POV-pushing CABAL Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
It's reminding me of WikiProject World's Oldest People, which was used for maintaining a walled garden (with accompanying off-wiki canvassing, outing threats et al.) until there was an ArbCom and bannings.
I'm going to open the RfC on the template as suggested above. The discussion is spreading out over multiple forums at the moment. Thank you all for your attention to my post. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
For info, I did open an RfC but someone else took the template to Templates for Deletion. Which I could have done all along, had I thought. Looks like it will be deleted there. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Because of the misinformation placed above, some clarifications are in order.

Itsmejudith, who opened this, was the one arguing most strongly that the contested content should be put to the Wiki:astrology project members for evaluation, and that the astrology project members should create agreed guidelines for a consistent approach towards structure and content of this set of articles. She first suggested this on 19 November. I agreed in principle and hoped she or someone else would initiate it. Due to time pressures, it was with reluctance that I initiated it myself, after a period of delay, in order to satisfy her arguments that this was the right thing to do (see also here and here).

She now says:

On 24 November, User:Zachariel (Zac) notified members of WikiProject Astrology of a discussion. To be fair, he did post on the WikiProject talk page, saying simply "Need for discussion of issues has been put to WP:Astrology project members". He didn’t post about the discussion on WP:FTN where this was under consideration or notify me or anyone who had contributed at FTN. I had explained that I wasn't going to join the project but would contribute there from time to time.

This is simply not true. The opening comment of my astrology project post - given with working links - was this:

There has recently been a lot of discussion about the Scorpio (astrology) page. The concerns have been discussed on the talk page of that article and on the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. They relate to the structure, content and sources used for all the 12 zodiac signs...

I also kept Itsmejudith and the other editors who had contributed to the previous discussion fully informed. Posting several times on the Scorpio-talk page (where this was being discussed) that I was making a post on the Wiki:Astrology project members and inviting their comments there – see this, this and this.

Itsmejudith was perfectly aware of the situation (see here) and I have no understanding of why she chose not to comment herself in the place where she knew it was being properly evaluated, following her suggestion – especially after she took it upon herself to define the astrology project tasks and principles by inserting – without any prior project discussion – a list of rules, purposes and goals for the astrology project (see the series of six posts she made starting with this).

She now implies “Zac’s notification of individual editors had been very selective. I posted in a new section on the WikiProject talk page to say there was prima facie of vote-stacking.”

There was nothing inappropriate and my procedure was this: I contacted the members of the project by using the list of members advertised on the project page and the ‘what links here’ list of users who demonstrate their membership by displaying the project membership box on their user pages.

As Itsmejudith acknowledges, most of these are clearly out of date, but I am not able to establish which these are so I contacted them all without any attempt to be selective. She says I notified three people who aren’t project members. User:Ihcoyc, User:Lighthead and User:Prof.Landau. Actually, though the account is almost certainly dead, Prof Landau’s name is listed on the project’s membership page, and Lighthead was also listed as a project member – (he de-listed himself after I issued the notice). User:Ihcoyc, the only editor not listed as a member, was known to me as one of the few editors who had contributed content and news recently to the astrology project pages, and who I felt would expect to be treated as a member because of his obvious involvement with project concerns – see this, for why that was failry obvious logic.

She also states:

What may be of concern is that since the discussion was opened, in the last three days, five new members have joined the project: User:AxelHarvey, User:Dwayne, User:Logical 1, User:Robertcurrey, User:Ken McRitchie.

Why should this be of concern? There is a high profile discussion currently taking place across several pages, asking editors to demonstrate a willingness to be part of a working team for this project, so quite naturally some have been reminded that the project is still active and in need of contributions. Equally, Lighthead, similarly reminded about the project, chose to delist his membership.

So the situation is this: I was urged to get the astrology project members involved, and did that to the best of my ability. The person who argued most strongly in favour of that happening chose not to contribute, despite being fully informed and requested to do so. Having seen that the use of the template found unanimous support, she now wants to suggest that there was something inappropriate about the process.

The notice at the top of this page states “You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion”. The accusation directly concerns my activity, with the suggestion that I was selective in who I contacted in order to engineer deliberate vote-stacking. Yet I know of this ANI report only because I have just read the short and rather vague notice on the astrology project page – one that I missed yesterday and might easily have missed today.

I would like to have Itsmejudith’s involvement scrutinised since I believe the fragmentation of discussion has been highly disruptive. Already this ANI thread and has elicited negative responses, which then influence the new RFC, based on unfair representation of the problem, alarmist suggestions and the unfounded declarations that the disputed content uses unreliable sources – this is not the case as other editors (above) have tried to explain. The purpose of the Astrology project discussion was to centralize discussion so that all criticisms could be looked at, understood, with proposals suggested, guidelines created, and any difficult issues referred to appropriate notice boards as these were identified. Instead blanket criticisms (many of which have no substance) have become scattered again, so no one knows now the correct place to engage in meaningful evaluation and debate.

So far, the astrology project members have clearly supported the notion that some sort of clarification of the sign-identification issues needs to be included upon every page, because there is too much confusion on issues that are quite easily explained and are fundamental to the understanding of the topic. The project needs time to evaluate whether modification of the content is necessary and to agree the guidelines on how to improve the quality of all the 12 pages - so that they are offering information on the history, mythology and technical issues connected to the astrological use of the zodiac signs. Nothing can move forward while-ever there is uncertainty over where to evaluate and formulate consensus over these issues. To create an appropriate environment of rational debate I hope the administrators here will approve of the astrology project as the best place to work through all the issues systematically, and that requests for comments should be directed to the astrology project pages where the issues are being explained in full and proposals for solutions can be explored in full. As previously explained, all contributions are welcomed there, whether they come from editors who identify themselves as members of the project or not -- Zac Δ talk! 14:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Zac, a template, particularly one that is as POV-pushy as the one you have, is not the proper way to do the things you seek. You claim that the information is reliable; I seriously doubt that. And, regardless of whatever consensus may have been reached at the Astrology project, it's the consensus of the greater community that matters, and it appears that the greater community does not want things done the way the Astrology project wants. Particularly when it seems quite clear to me that the Astrology project ignores or even violates several policies and guidelines. And I see no reason to scrutinize itsmejudith's involvement...she has not violated any policy Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈
Furthermore, you ask why bringing up those other editors is relevant. Pointing to those editors could be a reference to either meatpuppetry or canvassing, both of which are egregious policy violations Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 17:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
And one more point...both here and at the TFD, you claim that the best way to convey this information is with a template. That is not what templates are for Templates are either boilerplate notices or links to other articles. Large amounts of sourced text have no place in templates. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 18:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Zachariel accuses editor of censorship[edit]

Zachariel (talk · contribs)

Here, User:Zachariel accuses me and another editor of censorship. This after he was told that the template should be deleted primarily on grounds that it violates what a template is, in addition to cruft concerns. Just thought someone should know. I know I'm involved now, but I think, due to Zac's baseless accusations, his general lack of CLUE, and additional concerns expressed above (mainly considering either meatpuppetry or canvassing), a topic ban is in order Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 20:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah! The old "Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!" routine. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • We normally have to suffer longer before someone on a mission is topic banned—but it is clear that a group of astrology enthusiasts has got used to promoting their in-universe view on Wikipedia, and topic bans will be required. Zachariel has over 2500 contributions and I cannot see any outside the topic of astrology. Their first edit was four years ago (adding a link to an astrology website—there was a long period of inactivity soon after). I suspect that it is only recently that much pushback against cruft has been experienced by the members of WP:WikiProject Astrology, and the wider community needs to take control because there are sufficient enthusiasts that any standard talk page discussion is swamped. Johnuniq (talk) 01:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, 2500 contributions would not surprise me - nor would it surprise me that I have corrected more patent innacuracies and added more lacking citations and references to this subject than any other editor. I realise that makes me a sitting target for the many editors who are quite open and transparent about their hatred for the subject, and don't even bother to disguise their inability to be objective in their reports on it. -- Zac Δ talk! 01:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Purplebackpack89, your edit summary reads like a tabloid headline: “New subsection: Zachariel accuses editor of censorship”. It also has the same degree of reliability.
How about this one “Topic ban proposed for Zac: self-confessed involved editor argues prior use of words could work; another suggests a 'too many contributions' argument” (?)
No Purplebackpack89, my comment was not directed at you, and I’m sure the editor whose post it did follow understood that general irony and analogy was being used, even if you didn’t. I will let the admins decide if I have made baseless accusations or defended myself from them. The fact that someone uses the word ‘canvassing’ does not mean the case is closed before it is judged. Now – this comment is addressed to you - are you saying that I am involved in meatpuppetry? I know I am not, so I am interested to hear what you have to support that. Or are you of the belief that it’s only necessary to make accusations, and not at all necessary to justify them here?
Anyway, for those who want to ‘read all about it’, my post that mentioned the word "censored" is here. (I didn't know, BTW, that the word "censored" was censored, or that if anyone uses it, it becomes grounds to make sure they are censored ....) -- Zac Δ talk! 01:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
First off, why is everything directed toward me, and why the criticism of the edit summary? Second, I didn't say you meatpuppeted, merely that someone else said you did. Even if you didn't, you have engaged in similar concerns, such as canvassing (earlier today, you insisted that it was necessary that astrology editors be notified personally of these new rounds of discussions; that's canvassing plain and simple). Add to that editwarring and countless examples of being CLUEless. Clueless that we actually have rules about what goes in templates. Clueless about what cruft is. Clueless about the fact that the word "censorship" isn't to be joked around with. I could go on. Put it all together and, even without the cleaver, IMO you've still got grounds for a long block, let alone the topic ban I've floated Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 02:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Why is everything directed towards you?? Geez, could that be because you just started this ANI notice about me and suggested I should be topic-banned without good reason? Actually:

  1. no one has said that I have meatpuppeted. I would take great exception to that so if you believe anyone has suggested this please point to the diff. I am fully responsible for my own posts and no one else’s, and all of my comments are made in good conscience with a good understanding of the topic I comment on and the relevant WP’s policies that apply to it. All you did was bandy a word around, in the hope that a negative suggestion would stick without the need for it to be justified.
  2. I have not engaged in canvassing – the purpose of my contribution to the previous discussion was to clarify that, and I leave it to the judgement of admins to differentiate between canvassing and following the procedure that I was recommended to instigate by those who now complain about it.
  3. I neither canvassed nor “insisted” anything in the post you linked to – and the facts of that are “plain and simple” to anyone who checks the link you gave (the comment is the bottom one). All I did was ask a genuine question about whether the editors who had previously commented needed to be aware of the new discussion and asked to comment again. It is hardly “insistence” to ask a reasonable question once and then make no further response or take no further action on that point. Please note that I have not contacted anyone subsequently to the situation described in the thread above, where it was suggested that discussion be generated amongst the astrology project members.

I am not so clueless as to not note the prominent orange box that appears at the top of this page when contributors edit it – stating quite clearly “You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion”. Where was my notice for either of these accusations? It is only because this page got added to my watchlist yesterday (after I commented on the previous post, which had developed substantially in a very negative vein before I became aware of it and was able to clarify the situation) that I have been able to see how you put two and two together to total five.

I didn’t joke about the word “censorship” (you can’t even quote me correctly on that) but you certainly need to lighten up or at least get your facts straight if you are going to carry on thrashing that cleaver around. Everything about this accusation and your proposal that a topic ban or long term block be applied to me shows that you are too willing to by-pass procedures and ignore what is really relevant in the hope that vague and unsubstantiated critisms are all that will be noticed here.-- Zac Δ talk!

Zac is not getting it—that diff shows the reinsertion two hours ago of a template that is a SNOW delete at TfD, and without consideration of the many widely experienced editors who have explained that we don't use a template to insert article text, let alone duplicate that text in multiple articles. Johnuniq (talk) 03:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I do 'get it'. There is a RFC on that template, and astrology project members have been pointed to that page as a demonstration of its use, in order to establish consensus on the content it proposes and whether this needs amendment. Responses are not able to be elicited on the use of the template if the template is removed whilst the RFC is running. -- Zac Δ talk! 13:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
This is the problem, you just don't get it - there is no way on earth that template is acceptable to the community, your RFC could run for months and that template will still be deleted at the TFD discussion. This is the big problem for me, your guys (the wikiproject) are basically incompetent (I don't say that with malice, that's just it seems to be) - you don't seem to have any understanding of why that template is completely unacceptable and seem no closer to any understanding even after multiple editors have explained it to you. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, it seems to me that most of the project members are unaware of the template discussion. I have fully understood the problem, but recognise that it goes deeper than you appear to realise. -- Zac Δ talk! 15:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
The problem, Zac, is that there is a policy that says this is not what templates are used for but you think that this subject - with which you have a conflict of interest - deserves special treatment. You're living in a dreamland if you think that (i) this is going anywhere but a snow delete, and that (ii) if enough people on WP:AST argue long enough that this will override policy. Let me be clear: even if 100 people from project astrology show up on TFD and !vote keep, it will still be deleted because consensus is a policy based discussion, not a vote (incidentally, the "!" in "!vote" is supposed to be read as "not-vote"). If you want to change policy, go to the policy page. Otherwise please stop wasting time by arguing that these types of things aren't violating policy when they very clearly are. Yes, it is clear to people outside of the astrology community and that's why the only votes to keep on TFD are from astrologers. Noformation Talk 20:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

That TFD is snowing - why not nuke it from space now to prevent editing warring? --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Note the title of the previous discussion - from which this one was spawned. Decisions are not made at the first sign of snow. Sometimes, apparently, a rapid fall of snow gives cause for concern. Better to ensure that all who may wish to contribute discussion are given the opportunity to do so -- Zac Δ talk! 13:58, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Look forget it, no matter what a lot of meat-puppets turn up and say, that there is absolutely no way that the community will allow that template to stand - it's just not going to happen, policy does not allow it. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Then what's the problem? Don't you think it would be wise to at least establish whether it is the use of the template that is causing the problem, or the content it presents? Currently it seems that it would be easy to drop the use of the template and transclude the text instead. But I very much doubt this will fix the problem, don't you? Better to have the issues identified properly, and then resolved properly. Besides, editors are still commenting, but this is just my view of course -- Zac Δ talk! 14:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
In response to the meat-puppets remark: are you a meat puppet Cameron Scott? (Be aware that now I have asked this, any editor may legitimately report that questions have been raised about the possibility of you being involved in Meatpuppetry.) Do you think I am a meatpuppet? Do you think I am representing here any views but my own? Er, why not look around … where are the meatpuppets turning up anyway? Most members of the astrology project appear to be completely unaware of the template discussion, and there is no one commenting here but little old me, in this special thread that has been dedicated to me, in honour of all the WP contributions I have made. That’s the way I am seeing it anyway, since it was a silly ANI post that should never have started. If an admin requires comment I'll duly answer, otherwise if I’ll make this my last post (if you want to make non-essential remarks about me you can do that on my talk page). -- Zac Δ talk! 15:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Both the technical way in which the template is used (transclusion of identical article text into many articles, making it practically impossible for casual editors to change the text) and the current content of the template (serious pro-fringe POV pushing coatracked on a somewhat related topic) are a problem. Both will be solved. The solving has started with the technical side. Maybe that was a mistake. Maybe we should have started with the content so long as it's all in one place. But I see no legitimate reason why we shouldn't be able to find a central location, such as WT:WikiProject Astrology, for discussing whatever happens to all the individual zodiac articles. Hans Adler 14:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I consider the above post a very sensible one. There definitely needs to be one place for centralised discussion. I think that currently there are about 6 active discussions, all simultaneously talking about the same essential issues, but scattering different views across talk-pages, project pages, noticeboard forums and this ANI thread. So you go to one place and get a clear consensus on one opinion, go elsewhere you get a clear consensus on another. A complete mess. I agree it was not helpful to turn what I now percieve to be a dispute over content into a use of template debate. The latter is easily fixed but if the dis-ease over the template is only a sympton not the cause, the problems will rumble on and on. The WT:WikiProject Astrology exists to consider these issues, and it is not supposed to represent only the view of enthusiasts. Some of the members are sceptics who have joined in order to ensure the subject gets balanced appraisal - but it's not necessary for anyone to 'join' the project to participate in the discussions. The project should be given the opportunity to define sensible guidelines which acknowledge legitimate criticisms. Questioning the project's ability to formulate these guidelines appropriately should only be done when it has engaged in the discussions fully and formalised the task, not when it has only just begun looking at it. -- Zac Δ talk! 15:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Being as how astrology is as bogus as a 3-dollar bill, isn't Zac's term "inaccuracies" kind of redundant? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Let's keep this small - you see there are many differi