Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive735

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Review of User:Dolovis diacritics AN/I topic ban closure requested[edit]

I recently closed the User:Dolovis topic ban proposal on AN/I. Dolovis has requested a review of this as he believes the closure and subsequent clarifications of its scope are too broad. Community input is invited at WP:AN#Review requested for topic ban closure. Thanks, 28bytes (talk) 03:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Block review/unblock proposal[edit]

Resolved: Both users unblocked

These accounts were recently blocked for socking, after an SPI report. The report was perfectly reasonable, and the CU check gave a "Technically indistinguishable" result, and both were blocked - User:Bless sins for 2 weeks and User:Vice regent indefinitely. However, Bless sins has offered a plausible explanation, that Vice regent shares accommodation and uses the same computer. And CU confirmed that both accounts only used one computer in common - there was no evidence of overlap with any other computers they used. I know the "little brother" excuse is routinely dismissed when dealing with vandals, but these are not vandals - they each have thousands of of productive edits. The details of the case can be found at the SPI report, and at User talk:Bless sins, where there has been quite a bit of discussion, with User:Doc Tropics telling us that he has had interaction with Bless sins for some time and has good reasons to disbelieve the socking charge. To sum up, here are what I consider to be the salient points (trying to present them as fairly as I can)...

  • They are not vandals, are not disruptive, and have made thousands of productive edits over several years.
  • They have edited some articles in common, but those are a small proportion of their total edits - and they openly claim to share interests in articles related to Islam. It appears they have edited over 4,100 unique pages and only overlap on 183.
  • Checkuser confirms they only shared one computer, but have used others - that would tie in with the claim that they share a home computer
  • Bless sins has had a small number of blocks, but until the current one the most recent was in 2008. Vice regent registered during one of those blocks in 2007 - 14 hours into a 36 hour block. But Vice regent did not continue the same edits, and edited articles unrelated to Bless sins' block.
  • Here, Vice regent replied as if they were Bless sins, and that was one of the key pieces of evidence against them - but it genuinely is easy to leave home computers logged in and accidentally use the wrong account.
  • Doc Tropics, who is an editor in good standing and appears to know Bless sins pretty well, has opined that they are different people.
  • Doc Tropics has analyzed some of the two accounts' contributions, and has uncovered consistent style differences between the two.
  • User:Elinruby has had dealings with Vice regent, and says "This is consistent with a young relative, for example, using an uncle's computer. I know when my daughter was using my laptop she constantly left herself signed into her Facebook and Gmail accounts" - see SPI report.
  • I have myself examined a number of contributions by both accounts, and I also detect consistent style differences - I generally get the feeling that Vice regent is a younger person than Bless sins.
  • I do not believe it is plausible for one person to continue to maintain two accounts and edit with consistent stylistic differences over such a long period of time, and I don't think such sockpuppetry is feasible here.
  • Bless sins has admitted being in breach of WP:SHARE, but suggests that was not in force at the time.

That's probably enough points for now, but generally, I think we have two people who have been caught in the "little brother" trap - while it is a common excuse used by vandals, we're not looking at vandals here, and it simply is not true that different family members never use the same computer and that everyone who claims so is automatically a sock. So, please, could you have a read over the pages indicated and see what you think - I'll add a "Proposal" section below, so people can add comments and/or challenge my arguments here, and !vote in the proposal separately... -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

  • I have notified everyone who has commented on the SPI and the Talk pages (with the exception of one blocked open proxy) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)


User: Bless sins and User:Vice regent should both be unblocked, on the condition that they both disclose their connections with each other on their User pages, using the {{User shared IP address}} template.

  • Support as proposer -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support as an involved checkuser. The tiny reservation I might have - related to the creation of the second account during a block of the first - is outweighed by WP:AGF.  Frank  |  talk  17:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Haven't done any research myself, the above should be sufficient. Well done! HandsomeFella (talk) 17:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Boing! said Zebedee failed to mention some additional facts that support the sock hypothesis, such as the fact that both accounts went dormant at the same time earlier this year (details on BS's talk page). Or that even if we're dealing with 2 people, it's an obvious case of meatpupptery , somethign BS has done in the past, too, and led to his meat puppet being indef'ed. (talk) 17:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • support per reasoning above and my (and others) comments on BS's talk page. And someone should CU or otherwise take a look at William M. Connolley (talk) 18:07, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Wavering Support with WP:ROPE, and the caveat that they really should never edit the same sets of articles. I would also be concerned about !voting situations (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • support per what Boing! said Zebedee has said. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support, I've read both the arguments here and on Bless sin's talk page and they are pretty convincing. Consistently maintaining different editing styles over such a long period of time and number of edits stretches the imagination. Socks are usually too emotionally involved in the subjects they edit to avoid slipping up and giving themselves away. Yworo (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Entirely feasible that these are two separate individuals and I'm inclined to AGF. I see no indication that either editor has attempted to evade questions or deceive others, but has taken responsibility for errors made. Best regards, Cind.amuse (Cindy) 19:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. I've looked at the two editors, and there are differences not only in style, but also in name space usage stats. In dubio pro reo, and here there is plenty of dubium. I also find it implausible that one editor could maintain two long-term productive accounts like that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. I'm willing to assume good faith in this case. I also think the accounts should abide by Bwilkins' proposed caveat(s). Jayjg (talk) 19:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. This sequence [1] supports either Boings! analysis; looks like editor posted, realized logged in under wrong account, reverts that edit, and then post using proper account. Nobody Ent 19:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support, as the initial accuser. They both appear to be constructive long-term contributors, so it'd be good for Wikipedia itself that they were both unblocked. Do support disclosing their connection on both userpages, don't support editing ban on articles the other has edited, do support not voting where the other has voted. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support as an involved CheckUser. The creation of the account and the voting incident which has been fully acknowledged are outweighed by everything else. Similarly per Bwilkins though, it can't hurt for these accounts to keep their distance from each other. If there is anything Bless sins and Vice regent think I should know that would be in their favour, they can e-mail me in absolute confidence in my capacity as a WMF functionary. WilliamH (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Boing's original proposal; do not support BWilkins' additional caveats. If these are separate people, editors, the simple fact that they use the same access ought not limit what they are allowed to do or edit. They ought to be wary of voting situations, and be careful editing areas they are both interested in, but certainly no formal restriction that would not be appropriate if they happened to be two editors with separate computers. Cheers, LindsayHello 19:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support as someone who has interacted with Vice Regent, I feel an indef block would be unfair and to Wikipedia's detriment. I'd also like to note that this was in a very heated discussion on the NPOV noticeboard, in which Bless Sins did not participate at all. So I suggest that making them check the history of each page they edit is excessive; they already apparently refrain from acting as one another's cheerleaders. Furthermore, Vice Regent was unfailingly courteous in his arguments to editors who were patronizing him in a scathing manner, and showed a good grasp of Wikipedia policy and process. Some of his sources, while reliable, made me think he might be high-school age, or perhaps a freshman, which would support the "relative" contention. In any event, we have many problem editors in Wikipedia; why indef block one who is not? Elinruby (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)


By me. Max Semenik (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)


Thank you for the unblock.

  • I have indicated at User:Bless sins that I share an IP. Shall I make it more explicit?
  • I haven't voted on the same proposals as Vice regent for 4 years, and I intend to continue that.
  • I would like to note the difficulty in avoiding articles Vice regent has ever edited: because of our similar interests, we often come across the same articles. Busy articles, such as Islam, get numerous edits a day. How am I to know that Vice regent hasn't edited an article 2 years ago? I would have to check the entire history of every article every single time I make an edit. I think there should be a time frame imposed: for example, I'm allowed to edit an article Vice regent hasn't edited in more than 30 days.

Bless sins (talk) 20:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't make it difficult for yourself, there's been no agreement that there should be an editing ban at all. I think you should just take extra care when edits get controversial and when it may appear to others that you're acting as meatpuppets. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 20:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely. I have not engaged in the same discussion or same edit war as Vice regent (except that incident 4 years ago), and I intend to continue that. And when in doubt I'll reveal to editors that I share an Ip with Vice regent.Bless sins (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, the unblock has not actually imposed editing restrictions, so I'd say just exercise sensible caution -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd suggest that you also keep a direct link to this discussion handy in case you ever need to reference it. Nick-D (talk) 10:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

USA International Business Publications isn't reliable?[edit]

I am trying to use USA International Business Publications for a citation and another editor has repeatedly refused to allow me to to cite them but won't explain why they aren't considered reliable or provide a link an article explaining why.

What's more a number of articles cite USA International Business Publications.

If there is nothing wrong with the group I'd like to report this person's behavior. --CatholicW (talk) 07:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Correct place for this question is at the reliable sources notice board. Noformation Talk 08:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

possible hijacking of a retired/vanished user[edit]

Resolved: Katarighe indeffed by Salvio. 28bytes (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Katarighe (talk · contribs) claims on their userpage to be the re-incarnation of a "vanished" user. The two accounts dfo not share any interests, Katarighe shows an extremely poor understanding of the English language while the vanished account had no such problems, and when questioned about it his replies [2] [3] smelled strongly of WP:BALLS. Up until this point I hjad thought this user was just a bit misguided in that they seemed a little too focused on looking ready to be an admin, but this is different. I do not believe them to be te same user. And now, as I write this, he is trying to have all his talk archives deleted. Something is rotten in Denmark. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I was actually related in computer discussions. --Katarighe (Talk · Contributions · E-mail) 01:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
See what I mean, everybody? Beeblebrox (talk) 01:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Katarighe: it would be in your best interests to start speaking honestly right now. 28bytes (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Beeb's assessment, here. Katarighe claims he lost the password to the old account and, yet, their very last edit on that account apparently falsifies this claim. I believe it's high time Katarighe (talk · contribs) were blocked for WP:CIR. Salvio Let's talk about it! 01:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
My brother actually used this account before. Not mine. --Katarighe (Talk · Contributions · E-mail) 01:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"Brother"? Wrong answer. Indef block for trolling and/or CIR, please. 28bytes (talk) 01:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I lied at this mistake. I'm not really trolling for this. --Katarighe (Talk · Contributions · E-mail) 01:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
How could you not know if you lied or not? I agree, time for a competence block, combined with the manifest bad faith action of trying to take credit for someone else's work. Exactly what we do not need here. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
And now he's blocked. Thanks for the decisiv action Salvio. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome. Face-wink.svg Salvio Let's talk about it! 01:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
This user did a lot of editing on the "Suspected copyright violations" page today [4]. It might be a good idea if anyone who knows the ins and outs of that page were to double check the items that K marked as resolved. Thanks ahead of time to the editor(s) who take this task on. MarnetteD | Talk 01:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Good block - should any of the faked user pages and faked talk archives be deleted? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
    I'd say yes to that - by claiming them as his when they're not and re-using them, isn't he violating the licensing of that content? Or something along those lines? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Outright lying is enough of a reason to undo anything he did to suggest they are the same user. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)


After consulting Salvio, I've deleted a bunch of pages that Katarighe created: impersonators are meant to damage the encyclopedia by causing disruption, so I considered his creations G3-able. However, we've got a bit of a problem: K did some reviewing at WP:AFC, tagged a bunch of Bambifan socks, added wikiproject templates to talk pages, and even welcomed some new users. What do we do with the AFC reviews? I suppose that I could revert the other contributions as vandalism, but it would definitely go against WP:IAR, so I'm confidently going to leave them alone. Nyttend (talk) 02:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I agree with this course of action. Those pages you deleted were all unhelpful to various degrees and it's a good thing they're gone, the other contributions you refer to can be safely left alone (with the exception of the one Katarighe made to the CCI page: there we need to make sure everything is correct, so I'd highlight them for review). Salvio Let's talk about it! 02:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I've asked Moonriddengirl for help with the CCI; there may be a better person to ask or a better process to follow, but I'm not aware of it. Nyttend (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I've relisted all the SCV days he's touched and slapped them with MRG's notice. There aren't that many of them (about 13 additional days). Please delete Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Katarighe as this is a malformed and out of process CCI. MER-C 05:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The AFC tags seem to have been good, as I just stumbled on this through his work there. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 06:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Alt accounts[edit]

Not sure if these need to be blocked, but the user had created some alt accts. I didn't see any worthwhile contributions, but I didn't check every one. -- (talk) 13:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't check any contributions, but alternate accounts of indefinitely-blocked editors should always be blocked. Nyttend (talk) 14:07, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
(ec) I've checked them all and blocked them, as it is the user who is indef blocked, not one specific account. (Two of them were called xxxBot and had made no contributions at all, and that appears to violate the naming rules too) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible sock of banned user?[edit]

This looked kind of suspicious to me [5]. - Burpelson AFB 16:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

He isn't OSUHEY (talk · contribs). Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

ONE PERSON with 3 USERS[edit]

This users: user talk:, user talk:, user talk: are THE SAME PERSON. I'm very frustrated about this situation, Because i was complained about this person and he got some warnings and two of this users are blocked for only one week. How do i know that this 3 users are the same person? because they edit the Same things, stating an edit wars about the SAME things and they always don't answer to my messages. I tried to explain to him why i know for sure that he put some wrong things in some articles (especially Ben-Gurion airport) and i wote to him that if he thinks that i'm wrong he can add his proof and show to me why. He always undecided, He delete things,add seasonal operation and delete again. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME!--Friends147 (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you notify him/them of the discussion here? It looks like an editor using a dynamic ip; while frustrating that's not against policy, unless they pretend to be different people. Nobody Ent 19:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

All this users that i mentioned here are the same person that pretend that they are a different people.Every time I complain about this person, he changes his IP address.--Friends147 (talk) 19:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide diffs showing where they are intentionally creating the impression that they are different people rather than a switching IP? S.G.(GH) ping! 22:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
And you haven't notified them of this discussion - I've done this for you. S.G.(GH) ping! 22:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very simple, It's not possible that three IP addresses arguing with me about the same things, , would not answer me when I ask them about the changes they made, everytime they being blocked or gets a warning-> a different IP address Immediately starts edit the same thing, and all the IP addresses I mentioned are from Turkey and edit the same articles.--Friends147 (talk) 22:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

  • What is it that they're doing that's so bad? Where are the diffs indicating this? Are they edit-warring? Vandalizing? Without such diffs and an explanation of what they are doing that's against policies and guidelines, there is nothing here that an administrator would or could do. Drmies (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
2 of them have been done for EW already, third currently operating. I suppose it could be a block circumvention if we timed the edits. S.G.(GH) ping! 12:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

What I'm trying to tell you all the time is that I have really serious argue with him through the edits. I'm trying to contact with him all the time but he's ignores me. I've known this person for last summer, His user name called KARPARTHOS. He's Vandalizing some articles Especially Ben Gurion Airport. He's changes things without attaching proof (or attach proof that not prove his point). And to avoid the punishment he gets, he changes his IP address. --Friends147 (talk) 12:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

  • - Active October 19 2011 - December 28 2011. In this period exclusively editing airport articles. No talk page edits.
  • - Active from November 26 2011 - January 2 2012. Exclusively on airport articles. No talk page edits.
  • - Active January 7 to present (currently not blocked). Exclusively editing airport articles. No talk page edits.

It is difficult to assess whether it is impersonating different editors, because none of them has made any edits to talk pages and only few edit summaries, all have resorted to edit warring. So it does seem like an IP-hopping edit warrior. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Semi protection for a week or two and words of advice if we can get the IP to engage? S.G.(GH) ping! 12:57, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if semi protection for a week is the right thing to do because one admin tried this and it didn't work.--Friends147 (talk) 16:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


People involved in this childish drama need to stop talking to each other, stop talking about each and stop rising to the bait or I'm going to get my bit back and start blocking people. Thank You. Spartaz Humbug! 06:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • History

On December 26, here, as part of a closely related ANI issue, I brought User:Purplebackpack89 (PBP) before ANI, and no warnings were issued.  As reported in the "Metro Walk" ANI thread that is not yet archived, PBP used the grace period to WP:HARASS User:Luciferwildcat (LWC), whereupon the issue came back to ANI.  MelanieN reported that PBP was the first case in which he/she had ever yelled at Wikipedia.  As the discussion progressed, I saw PBP offering evidence of his/her inability to engage in WP:CONSENSUS.  Spartaz then closed the thread, closing against unanimous support for MelanieN's proposal that included LWC.  Spartaz has since given User talk:MelanieN a barnstar, and in doing so identified both PBP and LWC as a problem (diff), but still no warning has been issued to PBP.  I hoped that Spartaz knew something. 

  • New attack

But instead, PBP is back in attack mode, this time against me hereUnscintillating (talk) 04:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

  • What "attack"? He's unhappy and complaining and not being scrupulously polite, but how does this add up to an attack? -- Hoary (talk) 04:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • What Hoary said. There's a little too much "mommy he hurt me" going on here when there isn't even a scratch on the knee. I just read through half of that atrocious "discussion" higher up on this page, and can only agree with Carrite's last comment (at least the first half of it). Unscintillating, why poke around again in this pile of shit? The problem with LWC and PBP is that both have more passion than restraint. LWC's knowledge of Wikipedia's policy and guidelines is, to put it mildly, on the slim side, and PBP clearly has poor manners, as his behavior toward MelanieN showed.

    I have a suggestion as well: we leave these two to it and let them figure it out. In other words, we give them some rope (yes I know, I should rewrite that essay for this purpose). Drmies (talk) 04:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

As per our article on the topic, the four-letter word for excrement that you've used "is an English word that is usually considered vulgar and profane in Modern English."  Unscintillating (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Which is why it is the correct word to use for this pile of stinking poo. Then again, Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia...I prefer citing Chaucer, "And shame it is, if a prest take keep, / A shiten shepherde and a clene sheep." Drmies (talk) 06:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Are you done playing with excrement?  Unscintillating (talk) 06:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Also, one is explaining why an article was written poorly an attack, but creating four different ANI threads, mostly based on not liking my edits rather than any violation of policy isn't a personal attack? And I'm sorry, but impoliteness isn't a crime. You know how many threads around here we get about mops being impolite? Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 14:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Crissy Moran - low-level edit war, block evasion[edit]


There appears to be a prolonged, low-level edit war on Crissy Moran, the biography of a former porn performer, replacing a rather tame upper-body portrait (file:Crissy_Moran.jpg) with a cropped version of the same (file:Crissy_Moran_cropped.jpg). I would not bother bringing this up here, but a new user, User:Dbiela1, has inserted a link to a Facebook page purported to belong to Moran. User:Dbiela8293 was previously indef blocked for repeatedly inserting unsourced information about the real name of Moran, which makes me wonder about the authenticity of the Facebook page. Note also the similarity of usernames. Perhaps semi-protection of the article is in order, if nothing else? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I've resurrected this from the archives because it's still going on. The debate over the picture is of little concern. The posting of the allged facebook accont of the subject is a much larger issue. I've asked for the page to be semi'd, but from the technical standpoint I don't know if that will stop the registered editors Dbiela___ or not. Full protection (minus the problematic facebook link) might be advisable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I fixed the user links, above - and will have a look. No objection to a brief semi, if that will result in discussion. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, since it's a block-evading sock, the user should be indef'd immediately. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I am reverting the user who is inserting the Facebook link unless notified to do otherwise. Calabe1992 14:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
You beat me to it - though they added that as I notified them not to do so again, so they get a mulligan - one more such edit would be a block. I also notified them of this discussion. Is the similarity in names and edits enough to pass WP:DUCK? Because I seem to hear a quacking sound... UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 14:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, they've got five six reverts in less than 3 hours, which is also enough to put them on ice. They've already been warned several times, under both known user ID's. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Aaaand, I blocked indef already. Any lingering AGF went right out the window when the new account repeated the old account's edit with the subject's real name. Confirmation of any sleepers wouldn't hurt, though. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 14:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
CU was declined, so we'll just have to keep an eye on the page. Watchlisted. Calabe1992 16:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Obvious sock is obvious - no reason for checkuser. If more socks start popping up, then it will probably be worth a look. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Diacritics usage on hockey team articles[edit]

Closed.--v/r - TP 18:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Djsasso has breached an agreement at WP:HOCKEY, concerning non-usage of diacritics on All North American hockey articles. This breach has occured at the article Portland Winterhawks. I've tried to get the editor to agree with the compromise, but he refuses to respect that agreement. What should be done? GoodDay (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I used WP:BRD to revert your change. As such I followed policy. At this point we perform the D part of BRD and discuss. Running straight to ANI seems to me to be a bit backhanded. Especially after you called me a dick for reverting you. You and Dolovis have spent the past year making sure that the hockey project has been told over and over again that it can't have such a compromise. So either we have one or we don't have one. You can't pick and choose when it suites you. I have no problem if the discussion at that page says to remove them. But the key being we have to have the discussion. This report seems a bit pointy to me. -DJSasso (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Are you going to respect WP:HOCKEY's compromise or not? GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
We are going to have the discussion at the talk page, as is part of BRD. When a consensus is clear whatever that may be I will follow it, as I always do. -DJSasso (talk) 17:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
So you're not going to follow the compromise, unless it favours your PoV? GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
First revert yourself at Portland Winterhawks & then a discussion can be had at WP:HOCKEY. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not going to argue with you here. You know where the proper place is to discuss it. Feel free to join me there with anyone else that is interested. -DJSasso (talk) 17:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Shall we consider this ANI report closed? GoodDay (talk) 17:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
It is up to you, you made the report. -DJSasso (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Then closed it is. GoodDay (talk) 17:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:Featured articles/Make Featured Article leaders elected (RFC)[edit]

Admin attention is needed following the above attempt to disrupt process through a poorly framed, discouraged and preemptive RfC (see Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Tone_of_the_conversation). The editor concerned, User:TCO, has been disrupting the featured article process for some time now, as is likely well known to many here. Has the community had enough of this yet? Geometry guy 06:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Hum...change is needed at FA but not precisely those suggested by TCO...I don't see any evidence provided here that TCO has been "disrupting the featured article process for some time now".--MONGO 06:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Geometry guy, can you clarify what admin action you're looking for? 28bytes (talk) 06:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Sure. I am primarily drawing attention to a problem, and problematic behavior: Special:Contributions/TCO. However, an admin view on the (il)legitimacy of this RfC, and removal of notifications from WP:CENT and other fora (see TCO's contribs) would be a good starting point. Geometry guy 06:56, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I can usually sense when I'm out of my depth, and that appears to be the case here, so I will leave it to an admin better qualified to gauge the legitimacy of TCO's RfC to decide how to proceed. 28bytes (talk) 07:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think any admin action is necessary, actually. The RfC is going down in a chorus of 'real' opposers and those who oppose the RfC as-worded. There's another one being drafted that will present the issue much better anyway. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 07:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I leave the issue with the admin community to decide that. Geometry guy 07:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I looked through his last 300 edits and nothing jumps out...what specifics do you have?--MONGO 07:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Off the top of my head, he caused the recent three-ring circus at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive53#FAC spends too much time on trivial_topics. I'm sure there is more, but I haven't been watching that page closely as of late. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there's really much admins can do at this point, short of a possible SNOW close when it reaches 100 oppose to 1 support. --Rschen7754 07:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Can we close this? I just got up and haven't yet read the specifics of what he wrote (I was aware of what he was going to write) but there's plainly nothing to be done here. Presenting someone's contributions and hoping someone will got through them and find something is inappropriate. Suggest close.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Besides, the background suggestion that someone is not permitted to open an RFC to discuss what they think is a good idea runs contrary to all that is Wikipedia (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Some proposals should be allowed to crumble under their own weight. That's the only way to know where WP:CONSENSUS stands. I see nothing particularly disruptive about this RfC. An early closure may be warranted at some point, but much sillier RfCs like Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Hentzer have been given their month in the sun, so it's probably best to let this one expire naturally. People may be stimulated by it to make FA-related counter-proposals that are more likely to succeed, so in that respect it's not totally useless. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 12:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

A look deeper into TCO's contribs, FAC talk, and TCO's talk page should reveal several issues.

After being warned for his "leaking pussy juice out of its nutsack" comments in a paragraph that mentions me by name twice here,[6] he entered a long diatribe that was redacted by Carcharoth[7] at WT:FAC.[8] That's only a few days' worth-- the entire history would take much longer to put together.

There was one RFC already in planning stages at FAC, due to be launched Monday, when TCO's mentor Wehwalt launched a snap RFC at WT:FAC (not prevailing), which this new RFC repeats, related to the "Wehwalt for FA director" campaign. This is now the third RFC (forum shopping since he's not prevailed so far). The RFC is not presented neutrally and it's canvassed to places TCO believes will support his view. Most of the basic information in the RFC framing is inaccurate: for example, I resigned as FAC delegate before this RFC was launched, FAC has never been short of delegates, and more. Leaving the RFC to run its course is unlikely to result in a different outcome, but it has been canvassed, the canvassing is in several places (like DYK and GOCE, where he perceives I am disliked, but not to GA, for example, where TCO perceives it won't prevail), and it is framed with incorrect data, which is on the Centralized template, poisoning the well for the RFC that was already in progress.

Independently, TCO recently made his first-ever appearance on Richard Nixon to back his mentor Wehwalt in edit warring, with the edit summary of "crufy rule monger",[9] in a case btw where they both falsely claimed the issue had been recently reviewed at FAC. Whether TCO should be topic banned from FAC might be considered at a later date, since there is a long history. Harassment, edit warring, canvassing, forum shopping-- all by an editor with a block log showing a history of disruption. Can admins think of no action needed in such a situation? For his mentor Wehwalt to ask that this thread be closed, during the "Wehwalt for FA director" campaign is also iffy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I've struck an error above: although TCO did NOT list GAN as being notified in his list on the actual RFC, his contribs shows that he did notify there. My mistake was from reading the RFC (another error there), which differs from TCO's contribs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The RfC demands many formal words describing its incompetence, the least of which is stupid, and I say that without trying to violate NPA. TCO has proven to be interested in a self-serving mission that is unclear to editors who are not TCO. He certainly has no interest in improving processes associated with article quality. He refuses to heed the opinions of editors with much more experience than he, preferring to depend on ill-formed confidence and oddly unscientific data that he manipulates with his own ends in mind. Those ends all point to the same direction: disrupt FAC. He was asked by Johnbod (talk · contribs) [10], Imzadi1979 (talk · contribs) [11], twice by me [12], [13], and by other editors not to post his RfC, because it would inevitably be more about him than improving FAC. Mike Christie (talk · contribs) had already planned an RfC that would be neutrally and competently worded to solve the problems apparent at FAC.

This is where it must start. TCO is a disruptive editor. He does it slowly and deliberately, mostly working within the approved channels Wikipedia creates. The disruption, however, is there, and is profound. He brings a level of drama to one of the only forums on this site that is mostly dedicated to article quality, insisting on changing it for reasons that are spurious, and again, stupid. FAC has its faults as anyone will be glad to tell you. I was remiss in not bringing this to ANI in November when TCO insulted regular members of FAC with his sham of a study. This is apparently the first hoop that has to be jumped through for the community to realize TCO's actions do not improve this site in any way. He has had an earful from editors at FAC and remains steadfast in his resistance to listen to reason and logic. No one at FAC has been able to get through to him. Perhaps the community at large will. However, if anyone else here is unable to do so at this point, this matter will return. You can expect me, at least, to come back for the record. --Moni3 (talk) 16:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

  • The RfC has been withdrawn by TCO, so it seems no immediate action is needed. For the record, Wehwalt seems to have responded here and here to the numerous allegations made by Sandy about "Wehwalt for FA director" (which I think was a phrase posted by someone else, not Wehwalt). There is a long history between Sandy and Wehwalt, which it is probably best not to go into here, but stating in numerous places that someone is running a political campaign when they say they are not, starts to look like just another stage in a long-running dispute that erupts every now and again. Hopefully things will settle down at FAC soon. Carcharoth (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I know it's hard to keep up with, but Wehwalt has multiple times in multiple places refused to say he is not part of the "Campaign for Wehwalt as FA director", and more importantly, it is TCO's disruption that should be looked into here. Is understanding content, understanding disruption, taking admin action for anything beyond the simple curse word too hard for admins? It's astounding that admins here will overlook edit warring, what looks like tag teaming, and personal attacks so as not to have to do the work of looking into the issues. As to your "long history", TCO is now the second editor who has disrupted FAC and been supported by Wehwalt (the first is now indeffed, but not after support from Wehwalt), so yes, there's a history. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not running a political campaign. I am not playing a political game. I understand that in some circles, and from my experience in writing articles on politics, that even a denial is seen as coyly politicking. Such things are utterly foreign to me. I do not understand why you resigned, Sandy, but if you are now saying it was caused by some Machiavellian plot by me, I'm totally lost. I write about people like Murray Chotiner and Mark Hanna. I do not, however, channel them.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Denying that you have campaigned for FA director, while turning a blind eye to the disruption visited upon your mentee TCO, would be very easy to do. You haven't. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
But he just, uh, did. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 19:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Clintonesque semantics-- he denied that he's "running" a campaign, or "playing"-- parse it however you want, he didn't deny that he wants to be FA director, as those with whom he acknowledges he is in off-Wiki contact with have stated, and he has turned a blind eye to the disruption caused by his mentee, TCO, at FAC, just as he supported the last editor who was indeff'd after similar behaviors. Off-topic anyway, admins will do nothing about TCO, we'll end up at ArbCom as we did in the last case, agree no point in continuing here with semantics. The obvious is ... well ... obvious. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
You read much more between the lines than me. I'd be interested in knowing why you think TCO is his 'mentee', though – I haven't seen evidence for it, and I'm curious because TCO doesn't seem to follow many of the same ideas as Wehwalt. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Ummmm, because Wehwalt said he was ... I suppose we can take Wehwalt at his word on that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Do you have a diff? I guess I missed the comment or I wouldn't have started this line of conversation. ;-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree with comments and evidence above by Moni3 and SandyGeorgia above that this incident is part of an ongoing pattern of disruption by TCO, but think we need to focus on the individual problem of his impulsive and abrasive editing, rather than tie it to a more complicated wider picture. Unfortunately, disruption is difficult to deal with, as telling comments by admins here indicate. There is even a suggestion that editors have a right to to be disruptive as long as they don't make a personal attack. Has civility enforcement become so problematic because it is the one of the few issues the community is still able to tackle?
Such wider questions aside, after a chorus of protest, and unanimous opposition, the RFC has now been withdrawn. Hence I concur with Carcharoth that this particular disruptive incident is over, and I do not object to this thread being closed. I also accept the implicit comment that before further action can be considered, some work is needed to compile and document the disruptive behavior. Unfortunately that takes time and effort by editors who are not responsible for the problem. Nonetheless, I won't be surprised if we find ourselves back here before too long. Geometry guy 18:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Concur, and agree to close, but recognize that based on history, we'll be right back here (and noting once again the irony in the failure of admins to do a single thing, while if someone had used a curse word, someone would already be blocked). Yep, close it; nothing we can expect from ANI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
You should start Wikipedia:Requests for comment/TCO or take it to ArbCom. ANI is not suitable for dealing with patterns of less than incredibly obvious disruption. The discussion above about who is or who isn't stealthily running for some awesome wikijob doesn't make the disruption at all apparent to non-insiders. However, it does make the factionalism plain obvious. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately it appears to be unsuitable even for dealing with incredibly obvious disruption, unless that disruption is obviously uncivil. And the definition of incivility here doesn't even include trampling over the views of all other editors and starting a preemptive and biased RfC in the midst of consensus efforts to frame a productive one, because there were no personal attacks or rude words involved. Geometry guy 22:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I resigned as an FAC delegate in part due to FAC disruption by TCO. I did not have the energy to deal with that, nor did I have any confidence that the community would be able to handle it until I (and others) had been through a long and exhausting attempt to reign it in. I've done that before for several other disruptive users; I don't have the energy left to do it again. TCO is setting a tone that is driving people away from FAC discussions. In my eyes, his behavior has very clearly crossed the line into disruptive editing, but no one is willing to take a stand and deal with it until many other editors have likely been driven away from processes or WP as a whole. Karanacs (talk) 18:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Politician editing own article?[edit]

I have come across what looks like a classic case of a politician editing his own article, but would like others to have a look at it before proceeding. I recently found the Jean-Paul Floru article, which looked a little suspicious, particularly due a big puff about a book recently released and also linking to numerous blog posts written by the subject (see old version here). The user in question Hayekuk (talk · contribs) is named for an economist admired by the subject ("He became a supporter of classical liberalism after reading Friedrich Hayek's Road to Serfdom"), and has added things to the article that look very much like the kind of thing that only the subject would be able to say about themselves (e.g. this). I asked the editor whether they were indeed the subject, but their response was simply to blank the section (take that how you want). In the meantime the article is tagged as COI. Number 57 16:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Looks like a typical puff piece. I don't know if being a councillor in Westminster automatically means notability, but for the most part, he is a wanna-be politician who despite a wall of text in the article didn't get elected. I suggest you drop a line on the BLP noticeboard, or maybe even put him up for deletion--he's not that notable. Drmies (talk) 18:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
    Looks like an old version was already deleted some time ago. I've PRODded the current version. Calabe1992 18:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Generally, when such things happen, they wind up embarrassing the person who did it. We are not as insulated from the real world as is sometimes thought.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Since he's already been PRODded and AfDed, I declined the PROD and immediately re-nominated it at AfD. Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 18:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


The above user new user has been editing Vairamuthu and appears to have a serious conflict of interest with the article. I have issued advice on this but have just noticed that he Has turned his user page into a full article self biography of himself which given the tag at the top may have been a previously deleted article. Thought it best to get administrative help re this. Not sure if there was somewhere more appropriate to place this.Edinburgh Wanderer 20:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:CIR would seem to be relevant here; I don't think this is someone who we really need to keep around. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The user page was deleted and has been immediately been recreated.Edinburgh Wanderer 21:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Stop x nuvola with clock.svg User(s) blocked. for incompetence and spamming. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

User:La goutte de pluie and Singapore-related articles[edit]

Resolved: La goutte de pluie indefinitely blocked by NuclearWarfare. Can be revisited if/when La goutte de pluie is unblocked

A1 Current context:

A2 Also see:

A3 This user has a history of tenacious editing on Singapore-related articles and has disregarded Wikipedia's policies on WP:BLP and WP:NPOV in the process. I encountered La goutte the day before while editing a BLP on a Singaporean politician – Grace Fu, subsequently, I tried to reason with the user with regard to her inclination with putting undue weight on less prominent events, and later reported the incident on the BLP noticeboard. The issue is not resolved as of yet. An uninvolved admin and other users have asked La goutte to take a break from editing articles under this topic (Singapore politics), but the user has disregarded this suggestion. She does not appear to have an interest in increasing the quality of the content of these articles but only appears to insert critical commentary wherever she can. I stand opposed to this whole-scale corruption of our articles and the vilification campaign.

A4 Grace Fu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)La guotte version 1, La goutte version 2, La goutte current version Grace Fu has received media coverage recently for certain remarks she made on her facebook page. La goutte's style of selectively picking up phrases and quoting them on article pages is very disturbing. According to WP:BLP, Wikipedia is not a tabloid and biographical articles on living persons should be written conservatively and dispassionately. She later makes a POINTy addition to the article: [14]

A5 Young PAP (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [This article was created today.]

Quote: Lee's goal was to "keep the PAP as the sole...only main political party in Singapore" such that "when the people think about the government of Singapore, if they think about the future of Singapore, then they will think about the PAP".

La goutte has paraphrased Lee Hsien Loong's comments and then linked "only main political party" to the article on Single-party state.

Quote: Lee also said that the youth wing would be a channel in which the youth could communicate dissent, in which otherwise they might be "tempted" to vote for the Opposition and bring the PAP government down.

Again, I am disconcerted by the use of selective paraphrasing and quoting out of context. Quoting from the source:[15]

"Indeed, BG Lee reflected the concerns of the leadership generally by pointing out the dangers that might lie in store if the Party did not work actively to involve the nation’s youth. Young people recruited into the new Youth Wing would find they had a tailor-made mechanism through which to voice dissenting opinions and be heard. Without such a mechanism, young citizens might grow frustrated with individual policies over the course of time; rather than working with the PAP to let their views be heard, they might be tempted to vote for opposition candidates instead, even though they might actually agree with the PAP fundamentals. And if enough young people felt that way, the PAP government could ultimately be brought down."

Under the section on "Internet presence", La goutte writes:

As part of the "dual strategy on the internet" in 1995, as usage of uncensored internet messageboards became more popular, the Young PAP began regularly commenting on the Usenet group soc.culture.singapore.[16]

This constitutes original research, and though the material retrieved from Google Books mentions a "two-pronged strategy", it does not make a direct reference to the Young PAP, and therefore not relevant for the article; also "as usage of uncensored internet messageboards became more popular", is just another addition which La goutte has inserted all by herself.

A6 Central Executive Committee (PAP) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Makes a reference to an "inner circle" in the lead paragraph, which is uncited. The rest of the article is pretty much unreferenced.

A7 George Yeo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - recent edits

Quote: As an enticement for joining the YPAP, he said people joining the YPAP could take positions different from central party leadership.

Uses the word "enticement" to describe the George Yeo's actions.

A8 Lee Hsien Loong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)recent edits

This edit includes the same type of selective and out of context paraphrasing as demonstrated for the article on Young PAP.
This edit is not only a grammatical change, but it changes the meaning of the subject's words when quoted out of context.
Lee quickly rose through the civil bureaucracy as a brigadier-general in the 1980s and was one of the key leaders in the mid-1980s leadership transition. [17]

This assertion is unreferenced.

Lee was regarded as one of the next key leaders in the People's Action Party leadership transition that was taking place in the mid-1980s, as Lee Kuan Yew had declared that he would eventually step down as Prime Minister in 1984. Following the Singaporean general election, 1984, all the old Central Executive Committee members had resigned on 1 January 1985, except for Lee himself. [18]

This is entirely a false use of a JSTOR reference. The linked article does not contain these assertions.

A9 Population control in Singapore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)recent edit

La goutte had initially created this article as – Eugenics in Singapore, it was later moved to Family planning in Singapore by some other user, and then moved to Population control in Singapore by La goutte. This article still bandies eugenics in Singapore prominently, frequently making references to "government eugenics policies" rather family planning or population control.

I request uninvolved administrators pay urgent attention to this issue, and recommend a topic ban for La goutte de pluime as it is clear that they cannot contribute to Singapore related articles in a constructive manner. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 23:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

We've been down this road so many times with LGDP. Many of us have observed and commented, but I'll only speak for myself: I've observed protracted, problematic edits and interactions over the past 6-7 months on Singapore-politics related articles and more recently, China-politicsrelated articles. I think this has to stop. Toddst1 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A1, A2 and A3: I fear that Toddst doesn't appear to have much expertise in the subject, when he decides to accuse me of biased editing, when I am reflecting mainstream consensus on the subject. I am also very hurt that he thinks I do not have an interest in increasing the quality of the content of articles. I want readers to understand how Singapore came about, how it came to be, how it is governed, etc. etc. which is why I have been writing articles on Singapore since 2004. Unfortunately, Toddst has conveniently overlooked my contributions to those articles. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to Nuclear Warfare's suggestion on your talk page, not Todd. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A4: That's not pointy. That was a genuine attempt at compromise. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Experienced users (including former administrators) are not expected to leave HTML comments like that within article space. But this isn't just it. There are quite a few threads on your talk page where other users have repetitively warned you against abusing {{cn}} tags on articles, but you still continue doing so. (relevant: NW's comment. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
HTML comments can guide edits; I don't get how the use of citation tags is relevant here -- I am simply tagging statements that do not comply with WP:V. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A5: Um, most political scientists agree that Singapore is a single-party state; if it is not one now, it definitely was in 1980s. You can look this up. I did not think this was contentious. I merely summarised the essence of what the YPAP themselves said on their website. Again, I don't think this was contentious, and if it was so, I apologise. Tell me how to fix it. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Please do not edit Wikipedia according to your personal understanding of events, in the event you quote someone, please mention whom you're quoting and do not quote them outside of the context. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Should I say, my understanding of the mainstream consensus of events; we all edit with limitations on our knowledge. I did not quote Lee Hsien Loong out of context -- in fact, I explicitly said the quote came from him. Lee was the Chairman of the YPAP, and he gave several reasons for the purpose of the YPAP. You haven't shown what context I am not showing. I have tried to faithfully represent all viewpoints as far as possible. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free)

The YPAP's own website bolded those comments. How is it quoting out of context to pick up on them? Can you explain what the context is? Lee is saying, the youth should be encouraged to join the PAP via the YPAP, otherwise dissent will be voiced through other means. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't wish to get into a content dispute with you on the noticeboard. I believe other users are competent enough to judge these edits. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I believe other users are competent to judge that these were quite reasonable edits. The only pitfall is that they may not read the original references in which they came from. Have you read them? elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I am summarising the narrative of the article. Did you read the whole chapter? It is rather slanderous of you to insist I am making up references because, the book does make a reference to the YPAP. Please read page 259. And FYI, you can start getting informed on the issue by reading Censorship in Singapore. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The author does not say that the YoungPAP began to comment on online message boards as a part of PAP's "dual strategy on the internet". Also, the author has used the words "two-pronged strategy" and not dual strategy. This again, is not a mainstream view point, and does not warrant creation of an article, which I believe is what you wish to do, going by the fact that you have created a redlink to the page. Your recent edits on almost all Singapore politics related articles show that you have attempted to put undue weight on particular viewpoints, rather than striving to achieve NPOV. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read the preceding pages. I present to you the section header on page 256: The government's dual strategy on the internet. If he uses two-pronged strategy, it's unnecessary argument over semantics. As the author explains, the strategy is to 1) monitor citizens 2) reply to dissent. What is the mainstream viewpoint? Do you have an in-depth analysis that says otherwise? elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A6: I planned to cite this soon. In any case, this is not a biography, so sourcing is less urgent. You can mark uncited statements if you want. I was planning to update that article later. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

One citation here (From the Straits Times ). Another source here to the "three orbits of leadership". elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Based on a small oversight which I corrected elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Singapore-window re-posts copyrighted material from other sources and is not an authoritative source. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I meant to say Straits Times; singapore-window archives historically significant articles from it. In any case, I don't see how this supports a topic ban. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Are you going to continue your disruptive behaviour by revert-warring on the admin noticeboard? I request that someone else please restore the discussion above. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 01:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A7: My language reflects the author's own wording. The author had said George Yeo had "offered the inducement of". (footnote 35) I don't think this is very contentious. To paraphrase the YPAP's worries if you read the source, the young have been shying away from the YPAP. Therefore, allowing dissent in the YPAP, will entice them. I think this is neutral wording. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference between inducement and enticement, but I am sure that you understand that. To entice is to lure, to induce is incentivize. — Nearly Headless Nick {C}
There is no practical difference. Please WP:AGF. Are you saying I used "entice" instead of "induce" out of my diabolical plan to portray the YPAP as a seductive group ensnaring the young? Maybe I was simply using my own words to avoid a copyright violation? And how does this affect the topic ban proposal? elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A8: What? I am simply reflecting his role as a government leader in the 1980s. Do you know the subject? Please read the Library of Congress countrystudies, which looked at his influence in 1989. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see this. The extra "the" was redundant -- that's why I removed it.

When you are quoting, mention whom you are quoting as a part of the text, and quote verbatim. The extra "the" was not actually extra. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
It does nothing to change the meaning -- you could dispute this and I can change this, but certainly I don't know why this is being used as evidence in support of a topic ban. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

No it isn't; it's sourced through the Library of Congress references.

This is a misrepresentation of the source. The article does not mention "civil bureaucracy", but "bureaucratic and political responsibility". As a matter of rule, while writing lead sections for BLPs, try quoting sources verbatim or appropriately paraphrase the content within context. But I don't need to tell you this, surely you understand that better. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
This affects WP:V and WP:NPOV how? I paraphrased the content within context to the best of my ability. We have to balance conciseness as well-- I was merely summarising large amounts of text into single statements. Considering we do this for BLPs I see no reason why we can't apply the same summarising strategy in other articles. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes it does. Did you read the whole article? elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read leadership transition in the People's Action Party where I used the same JSTOR source, plus more sources. I also used that source in Tony Tan Keng Yam. In any case, I believe the 1 January 1985 political transition event is well-documented; if I messed up, I am sorry, but I did not do that systematically and you are free to correct the error or point it out on the talk page. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

La goutte's response to A9: The Singapore Democratic Party and many other political analysts have referred these policies as eugenics policies. Even the Library of Congress has analysed these programmes like so. I am afraid that people have not been doing their research. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Neither of the two sources used on the article pertaining to the Library of Congress mention the word "eugenics" even once. – [19], [20]. You are using Wikipedia as a tool to advance your political agenda. I am alarmed by your brazen disregard for NPOV. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry I messed up; I used many references in that article -- as you can see over 25. Here are some references that use "eugenics":
  • Chadwick, Ruth (2000). Ethics, reproduction, and genetic control. Psychology Press. pp. 165. ISBN 978-0-415-08979-1.
Eugenics on the Rise: A report from Singapore
. As such, population policies have been categorized into three main phases: the anti-natalist phase (1966-1982); the ‘eugenics’ period (1983-1987)
"The last point mentioned has been the most controversial because of its eugenic implications." Note that this study comes from the United Nations.
Btw, from the second LOC ref:

Do you dispute this? elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Would someone please reformat the complaints and responses sections? Right now, the section above me is so irredeemably confused that I can't tell what's a complaint, what's a response, and what's a response to the response. Indentations and signatures with timestamps exist for a reason; please make use of them. No comment on the proposal until that's done. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Holy moly, where does one start? I wish someone had hit rollback the first time LGDP started ping-ponging here--I think it's their responsibility to clean this up, or maybe competence is an issue here. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Just cleaned this up. I find it hard to believe that a former administrator cannot even properly comment on a thread without creating a mess which others have to clean up. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 15:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Maybe WP:POINT and sowing confusion are part of her editing style? I recall [21] and see a repetition with [22]. So a topic ban from whatever area she disrupted now (Singapore, China?) won't be enough. She reminds me of User:TreasuryTag in that respect. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm not trying to insinuate that, nor is it entirely her fault, just that I can't consider arguments for or against a topic ban when I can't even tell who's saying what above. I don't think anyone's trying to be deliberately obfuscatory. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 12:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: La goutte de pluie is topic banned on Singapore politics related artices[edit]

  • Support: as proposer. Toddst1 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - absolutely time for this. From my experience, the User is apparently unable to edit the BLP articles in Singapore related articles from a WP:NPOV compliant position. I have no experience of the China topic area but I fully suspect as per Todd's experience, that the same is true of the users contributions in that topic area. Youreallycan (talk) 23:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I have always sought to use appropriate sourcing. Can you please tell me how I have violated NPOV policy? I use the sources at my disposal, and I find my sources primarily through Google. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I go away for four months and still nothing's changed, I see. The previous efforts have failed and it is time to ratchet it up from a simple 1RR to a topic ban. Support. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 00:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I have used high-quality third party references and high-quality books. I am puzzled. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 01:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose see nothing wrong with the edits in questions. they seem to have references etc Bouket (talk) 09:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
    • If the basis for this is simply "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", you should probably review the evidence produced above in more depth rather than simply saying you "see nothing wrong" because the edits "have references", considering that the charges include that said references are a fundamental part of the problem. It's not a question of whether she's referencing her edits, but rather how she is doing so. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 21:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Oh Strange Passerby, yet Toddst has yet to show what is really problematic with the references nor how they were improperly used. Has Toddst provided a sample survey of the literature to show that I am cherypicking references or distorting weight? Do you know why? Because he can't; he doesn't know what he's talking about; he hasn't looked at the academic literature, and I have cited a liberal amount of viewpoints, and in fact, I have no stance on the matter. I am merely interested in the facts -- and who said what.
      • Oh it's also ironic that you say that, considering that the above three votes are political in nature, based on friendship, and not based on sound logic. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 22:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • oppose William M. Connolley (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
    • And do you have any argument to back your stance up? No? Didn't think so. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 21:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Ironic, as you, Strange Passerby did not provide any form of argument in your !vote either. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 22:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
        • Don't believe I need to — I referenced the fact that "nothing's changed", indicating my stance to be similar to prior discussions on this issue, which are readily available at the very top of the main thread in Nearly Headless Nick's links... Strange Passerby (talkcont) 22:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
You could do without putting words in his mouth; he'll respond if he wants to, and if not the admin masochistic enough to close this will weigh it accordingly. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what?[edit]

And what did I do with China politics-related articles? The only thing I did was oppose the requested move from China to Chinese civilization. Since 2005, I have an interest in Chinese history. I am not out to push a POV. I did not selectively quote. Nick seems unhappy that political scientists online have not been entirely favourable to the Singaporean government. However, I am out to reflect mainstream consensus of the subject. I do not cherry pick and always seek a balanced view of the subject. I sought to thoroughly include many sources in my editing: a reader can read through population control in Singapore and note the diversity of viewpoints.

I am not sure what my crime is. I have thoroughly and painstakingly researched many of my articles, ever since I joined Wikipedia. I wrote PAP-UMNO relations, Battle of Singapore, much of History of Singapore (which still bears my language), many of the places for Singapore geography, and laid the foundation of many Singaporean articles. In these articles, I have sought references which explained and analysed historical events. Nick appears to be a newcomer who takes objection to any viewpoint unfavourable to the Singaporean government. Nick appears unfamiliar with much of my old work.

I would also like inquiry to Toddst's inappropriate use of admin tools to block me in a dispute, which was brought up earlier in an ANI thread. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 23:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Correction. I've struck the china articles from the proposal. Toddst1 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah, "slap a bunch of accusations and see what sticks". This is convenient. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Lgdp, whatever content contributions you've made in the past is irrelevant to your current spate of editing behaviour on Singapore politics-related topics. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 01:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
As an aside, those claims against Toddst were completely unfounded and the complaint was thrown out, just for clarity's sake. Basalisk inspect damageberate 23:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
this is a real question. has an admin ever been mentioned here recently and people felt action should be taken against them? Bouket (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • "In both cases here, I see no plausible reason for blocking whatsoever."
  • " In brief, Toddst1 was involved and the block was a disproportionate response to the conduct in question." [23] elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, I note that Toddst is canvassing for votes to support his proposal, if you look at his contributions. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not canvassing to notify with neutral wording possibly involved users or interested users of an ANI discussion. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 00:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
It is if he is cherry picking users to notify. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 01:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Cherry picking - my ass. I notified the admin that unblocked you.[24] Toddst1 (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Still irrelevant to topic at hand. Take your complaint about Toddst1 to a new section please Bouket. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 21:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
this admin was also involved with incident here [25] which i cant find in the archives can someone find it? because of this instance where i spoke up against hid friend i was ordered an interaction ban here[26] despite that other people found me helpful and i was just trying to help out like this person said [27] and he also changed his comments on my talk page when i said they werent helpful [28] and never AGF despite telling me i should AGF for him. he also was stalking me on wikipedia here [29] and here [30] and here [31] and ill probably be blocked for talking about him now. Bouket (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps you would be interested in a user conduct RFC. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 00:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Bouket, your edits do not belong in this topic. Just because you have a complaint about an admin doesn't mean that you can complain about that admin in an unrelated topic. You're just adding unnecessary clutter here.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
sorry bbb23 i just thought that the admin was acting extremely rashly recently so wanted to mention it. he would make very fast edits without thinking about them and used lots of words that show anger or annoyance as well Bouket (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Continuing disruption[edit]

User:La goutte de pluie is now stalking my edits to alter articles on my contribution history. – [32], [33], [34], [35] and also hiding my comments without my permission and revert-warring over them. It's very exasperating dealing with her. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 01:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I simply note that you take a rather excessive interest in Ahmedabad (as a member of one of its schools) and was worried about your neutrality, which is why I have tagged Ahmedabad for neutrality issues. I think you should find my edits reasonable. elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 01:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 02:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


I note that NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has now blocked La goutte de pluie indefinitely for the above disruption. Strange Passerby (talkcont) 11:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Since this is the 2nd time NW blocks her, I guess we will soon hear that he is another admin with a grudge on her... ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 12:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
He missed the last 3 meetings. Toddst1 (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible whelwarring over offensive off-topic post[edit]

I am extremely boldly closing this thing. No admin action necessary. Sebastian and Beeblebrox have the same goal, improving Wikipedia, and they are both goodfaith editors. I am going to ask both of em to reread WP:WHEEL; just for fun. If they have a different opinion about WP:wheel they can talk about it on a talkpage while drinking a nice cup of tea. Von Restorff (talk) 23:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As an uninvolved administrator, I removed an offensive off-topic text at WP:RD/S (with pertinent edit summary), which was immediately reverted by Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) here. I asked them at user talk:Beeblebrox#No wheelwarring, please to undo the revert, but was refused on the grounds that this wasn't wheelwarring. Now, we may disagree on the exact legal interpretation of WP:WHEEL, but I think the intent of that policy is clearly stated thusly: "Administrators are expected to have good judgment, and are presumed to have considered carefully any actions or decisions they carry out as administrators. Administrators may disagree, but except for clear and obvious mistakes, administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought and (if likely to be objected) usually some kind of courtesy discussion." Am I misunderstanding this?

I would like to achieve three things with this post:

  1. Get the offensive off-topic post removed;
  2. Better understand the intent of WP:WHEEL;
  3. Learn how I can help keep Wikipedia a place that we all can be proud of - without being reverted by another admin. — Sebastian 20:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, you are misunderstanding WP:WHEEL, which only refers to administrative actions. Continued reverting would be an edit war, however. Reaper Eternal (talk) 20:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Given the context of the comment in question, I'd say it's not that huge a deal. I'd be inclined just to leave it alone; if you feel that strongly about it, ask the user who made it to reconsider. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Good point; in this case the editor may very well be fine with the removal. However, just asking generally: Do we really have to tolerate here any and all offensive off-topic remarks - can't that be left to the discretion of an uninvolved admin? Where has that been decided? — Sebastian 21:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
In most places really egregious material can be removed by an uninvolved admin, but most of the time, if people do anything with it, it can be hatted or collapsed; that leaves it there without it being in plain view. The Reference Desk is something akin to an alternate universe in this regard, though, I don't know how they operate over there. I would suggest talking about it at WT:RD, but my somewhat limited experience there is that those conversations don't get too far. It's worth a try, though. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • What is offensive is of course highly subjective. For example, I find it offensive to be dragged to ANI for wheel warring by an admin who does not even understand what the term means. People get desysopped for wheel warring, it's no joke and is something I take very seriously. Except that it did not happen in this case. And the remark that started it was harmless enough anyway. I've been dragged to the drama boards before on some pretty slim pretexts, but not by another admin. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Wait--a Wikipedia editor citing policy without knowing what's in it? What is this world coming to? Drmies (talk) 21:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Beeblebrox was correct to revert removal of the comment, it wasn't a personal attack, merely editors bantering Shakesperean style comments. See WP:TPG. Nobody Ent 21:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm also a little disturbed at the language in his posts here, specifically "we may disagree on the exact legal interpretation of WP:WHEEL." Surely any of us understand the difference between WP policy and law? Especially an administrator, right? Sebastian asks me to respect his decision to unilaterally censor a remark two days after it was made and the thread had gone stale. Well, I don't respect that decision as it has no basis in policy.I mean, really, the discussion was about how long it would take to walk from the earth to the sun, and due to the rather silly nature of that question it drew some rather silly replies. And then two days later the civility police swoop in and censor some of those remarks. Not cool. I assume we can let this go now that it has been made clear to the user starting this thread that there is no basis for what they did and even less basis t their accusations of wheel warring. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I'd just like to add onto what Reaper says. Yes, WP:WHEEL only applies to administrator actions, which this was not. But even if this did involve administrator actions, this would not be a case of wheel warring. WP:WHEEL is very clear. Administrators can revert another admin's actions. That's not wheel warring. Wheel warring begins when the reverted action is restored. In other words, with red being wheel warring: admin action, revert, revert, revert... Also, we shouldn't pin this misunderstanding solely on Sebastian; a significant portion of administrators clearly think any reversion of an administrative action is wheel warring (I've witnessed in multiple times in the few short months I've been a sysop). Swarm X 22:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Hi all! Relax, nice cup of tea, we were just being silly. The wheel thingy is not very important, we all have a common goal here: improving Wikipedia. Much love, Von Restorff (talk) 22:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Help needed[edit]

Can someone please delete this AfD? I nominated the article with twinkle, the script froze, the process somehow reset and this ended up happening. Basalisk inspect damageberate 22:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Just for future reference, you can simply tag such pages with {{db-self}}. :) Swarm X 22:10, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was possible for someone to qualify as an "author" o