Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive757

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Sweeping sockpuppetry accusations[edit]

User:FactStraight reverted an edit I made, and accused me in the edit summary of being a sock of User:LouisPhilippeCharles. I went to his talk page to tell him that I'm not a sock, and that he shouldn't call me one, and noticed that the last message left on his talk page was over the exact same issue. I looked through his edit history, and ~50% of his edit summaries seem to be "reverting sock of louisphillipecharles". It looks like he's using this edit summary as shorthand for "reverted IP editor I disagree with", and to avoid giving any rationale for his edits. 89.100.207.51 (talk) 23:40, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

FS has already apologized. Nobody Ent 09:51, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
FS does use that term "sock" a great deal in his edit summaries. Pulling up his last 500 contribs shows the word used 226 times, which is an extraordinary number. Since being called a "sock" is a pretty strong charge, might this be a bit excessive? Or maybe obsessive? I wonder what his track record is, which isn't easy to just pull up without doing a lot of homework, but that the sheer percentage of summaries that use the term is worrisome at the least. It might be fine, but a closer look might be a good idea. Dennis Brown - © 15:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I know he already apologised. This isn't about defending my personal honour against being called a sock, it's about the fact that he's accusing editors of being socks left right and centre. 89.100.207.51 (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I decided to start by going to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/LouisPhilippeCharles/Archive to review that history and FactStraight's involvement. LPC is indeed a major sockmaster who seems to edit in at least one of FS's areas of interest. Many of his block-evading socks have in fact been successfully reported by FS. The impression I'm getting is that FS is starting to get suspicious of any IP that edits in LPC's target area, especially IPs that begin with an 81, 85, 86, 89, or 90, and is seeing more ducks than there are. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 21:45, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that 89.100.207.51 has decided to escalate a dispute we are having on an un-related article to this forum, as evidenced by the fact that his initial charge against me failed to mention my prompt apology for reverting him as a sock of LouisPhilippeCharles -- clearly indicating good faith. The elephant in this room is the attempt to evaluate my behavior in isolation, without examining the focus of the edits to which the objections are being raised: LouisPhilippeCharless vandalism has not merely been persistent, but massive, resulting in his being blocked globally and indefinitely since 2010. Thereafter, I noticed that the exact same kinds of edits did not decrease, only they were done under different account names -- some brand new, others revived after months or years of dormancy -- or, most often, under anonymous IPs. I reported these frequently, in detail, and most were blocked. LouisPhilippeCharles is a vandal, not an idiot: he figured out that he could increase the likelihood of his edits sticking by doing them massively, using numerous anons and socks, making innocuous corrections that others would defend, and by varying them enough to make detection difficult for those unfamiliar with his edit pattern. Nonetheless, I continue to take some responsibility for reverting his edits when they appear on my watchlist. Yes, most of those reverts are based on the DUCK principle, which is a widely used criterion -- perhaps the most widely used -- for identifying socks and removing their vandalism. It isn't about content I dislike: often LouisPhilippeCharles's edits are innocuous or corrections (I know some disagree with Wikipedia's policy that "good" edits made by blocked editors shouldn't be reverted, but I don't know how else "blocking" makes sense). I largely revert based, not on the edit, but on whether the topic and the editor's past history of edits to such topics resembles that of LouisPhilippeCharles. The contention that my judgement is clouded or I'm "obsessive" because I make occasional errors is unfair and unreasonable: there is no fool-proof test for detecting sockpuppetry and perfection in attempts to revert it is not and cannot be Wikipedia's required standard. Nor is there any such infraction as "stalking" a blocked editor who is evading the block. Other admins and editors who know of him have acknowledged how prolific the vandalism of LouisPhilippeCharles is. He himself recently complained (in the guise of what he admitted was a sock, HammyDoo) that half of his edits are being reverted. I'm doing most. And by his own admission, I am failing by half! So given that kind of volume, wouldn't some errors in correction be expected? As soon as a reverted editor expresses an objection I re-examine the edit and desist if the behavior or our dialogue is distinguishable from that of LouisPhilippeCharles (remember: Wikipedia places the burden of proof for unsourced additions on the editor). If the community wants me to exercise more restraint to reduce my error count I am willing to do that, altho I think that's an over-reaction. But if the charge here is stalking and imperfection -- that there is something inherently vindictive, suspicious or inappropriate in my doing a lot of reverts of an indefinitely and globally blocked vandal, with occasional errors that are corrected when noted -- yet there is a refusal to look at whether or not the vandalism is, in fact, occurring in high volume (225+ page moves & 1,000+ edits by dozens of identified anons & socks) and whether I am mostly, honestly taking that on, I must object: that would be an attempt to punish those who uphold Wikipedia policy in favor of those who flout it. By far the biggest beneficiary will be the vandal, and the loss will be to Wikipedia article quality. FactStraight (talk) 08:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, you do incredibly good work, and you can and should take on LPC and his army of socks. Please keep that work up. Secondly, none of us advocate anything more complicated than "don't call someone a sock until you've filed the SPI." That's it. If you suspect someone is a sock of LPC, revert them and report them, but it's uncivil to call someone a sock if they aren't, and this way you avoid accidentally biting any newcomers on false positives. The other thing that has been suggested is that the community keep an eye on your SPI reports, and caution you if your false positive rate gets too high. Would you be willing to accept that as a solution? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 12:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for acknowledging that what I am doing, overwhelmingly, is de-vandalizing Wikipedia. Still I find two difficulties with your recommendation. The first is pragmatic in dealing with a sock (whom we must assume is reading this right along with us): I have filed a large number of SPIs on LouisPhilippeCharles, but they aren't even a tiny fraction of the number of times I or others have actually reverted his vandalism. Based just on the number of LPC sock edits reported in SPIs which were upheld and led to blocks, plus the recent estimate of 225 page moves mentioned in the pending ANI case to permanently ban him, to file an SPI for every illicit LPC edit would have required me to file hundreds more SPIs. Maybe you guys need to review his blocks and SPIs: LPC is massively prolific -- he edits Wikipedia in several languages hundreds of times daily. The only hope of getting him to stop is for him to realize that his edits won't stick. While I'm not alone: PBS, Favonian, Yopie, among others, also revert his vandalism), I do the great bulk of it. LPC realizes and takes advantage of the obvious: it is very quick and easy to create an anon with which to vandalize. It is complicated and time-consuming to file an SPI and adduce the required diffs in evidence to get socks blocked: indeed, by the time the SPI yields a block, LPC has usually moved on to new anons). You're telling me, "Keep fighting that vandalism -- while we bind both your legs and arms, and blindfold you." Second, your remedy would drastically curtail my freedom to edit the articles which most interest me: everyone else is free to edit (including to revert) changes which add or alter facts at will, except when the addition is substantiated by a RS. It is unreasonable for me to forfeit a universal right because I have made a few errors while enforcing WP policy. I propose this compromise: I will not call an editor a sock in edit summary without filing an SPI -- which will eliminate "false accusations" of socking in public (a criticism I think is valid and had not adequately considered before). I will refrain from reverting innocuous edits which do not add to or alter factual information (i.e. typos, layout, etc -- although much of what LouisPhilippeCharles illicitly does consists in such edits). Nor will I revert properly sourced edits, even when I am certain they are done by LouisPhilippeCharles, without filing an SPI. I reserve the same right to revert unsourced changes and to challenge edits with which I disagree that any anon freely exercises. As for scrutiny of my SPIs, I invite it (btw, that's why I have never blanked or archived my talk page and have, heretofore, laboriously identified my reverts by reference to LPC's socks -- precisely so that others could review my actions. Apparently it is that commitment to transparency that has gotten me into trouble here). FactStraight (talk) 08:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Sometime ago this guy was blanking entire articles to put redirects on them, and when I revert his edits he started accusing me of being a sock of LPC. It's incredible how someone can attack another's reputation and nothing's happen.-Ilhador- (talk) 23:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Would you mind providing at least one diff of each of those (a blank, your revert, and his accusation)? I'm curious to see what's going on with FS. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 00:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
There's here [1] and here [2], then when I posted a warning on his talk page he replied calling me a sock and made a formal accusation on that LPC thread.-Ilhador- (talk) 01:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Well, considering I can tell just by looking at your contribs that your primary area of interest is probably the Thirty Years War or the Protestant Reformation, not the House of Bourbon, I'd say my initial assessment is correct. FactStraight seems to be exhibiting a certain level of paranoia - they're accusing a lot of people who make edits in an area LPC might frequent, if that person makes an edit they disagree with. I think they need to take a step back, as their WP:DUCK senses are picking up geese, swans, and herons as well and calling them all ducks. My suggestion is that FS should be required to not accuse anyone of being an LPC sock, in or out of SPI, unless they first get a second opinion as to whether there's a reasonable DUCK suspicion. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 03:41, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
4 of his 6 edits so far today have been summarised as "rv sock of indefinitely blocked LouisPhilippeCharles". That's is a bit ridulous. 89.100.207.51 (talk) 11:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
FS does a lot of good work, but I think the use of "sock" is a bit obsessive. I'm not worried about a second opinion, but as a rule of thumb: If you aren't willing to put your own neck on the line and file an SPI, then you shouldn't use the term "sock" in describing another editor. That way, if we get too many false positives at SPI, we can deal with it there (or bring it here). Otherwise, it is just a free pass to revert on sight. And he does file a lot at SPI, but I'm not sure if he is filing all of these. I had hoped FS would have come here and at least given us some insight, confirm if he is or isn't reporting all his claims or not, but he has only made 6 edits since this report was filed. And yes, 3 were claiming reverts of socks. I don't doubt that he is right most of the time, but his is one area where you need to be right virtually all the time. Dennis Brown - © 02:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Why does FS think this is an edit of LPC? Nobody Ent 14:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Cjdude12[edit]

Editor indeffed.--Demiurge1000 (talk), 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A brand new user account tagging various articles with {{stub}} which are already categorized into appropriate stub categories and removing speedy deletion templates. I find it odd that a brand new user would begin his/her editing career thusly but the editing continues despite lots of chatter on talk page about bad editing. Would someone convince him/her to mend his/her ways or do the needful. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 05:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Did you at least try to converse with the user before bringing this here? --MuZemike 05:54, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, but at the bottom of the pages your create I see that Wikipedia says its a stub. I may have a new account, but that doesn't mean I'm not experienced. Before I created this account, I used an ip for a year. Now I don't use the ip anymore. Please seriously consider what your are starting here. Cjdude12 (talk) 06:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipeida says it's a stub because it's already tagged as such... - The Bushranger One ping only 06:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia's was automated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjdude12 (talkcontribs) 06:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

@Cjdude12 - I've left a message on your talk page which I hope will explain the problem to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I replied on my talk page, Beyond My Ken. Cjdude12 (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I see your response, but you are seriously not getting it, so I suggest you explain here why you are adding the plain vanilla "stub" tags to articles that already have "xxxxx-stub" on them, and why you are not understanding the good faith efforts of other editors to point this out to you as a mistake. This is either a WP:IDHT problem or a WP:CIR one, and your explanation here may be the factor that prevents you from getting blocked for disruptive editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Given this response to the explanation of what he was doing wrong I'm struggling for reasons not to go ahead and block per WP:CIR. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
User has only added stub tags to pages without them since. Dru of Id (talk) 22:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
...and he wants confirmed status, and doesn't want a welcome message. I have declined the first, and provided the second as he's a little clueless here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
And cluelessness continues. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The "Ha ha ha very funny." does seem to be extraordinarily clueless. Not sure if this is CIR or carefully crafted trolling. Dennis Brown - © 14:59, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Drop a CIR and troll bomb on them. They're clearly cruisin' for a bruisin'. Blackmane (talk) 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

This user popped onto my talk page today to inform me that because I apparently created a page which I actually deleted I am therefore a sockpuppet [3]--Jac16888 Talk 20:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  • I'm teetering on giving an indef for CIR as we speak. The only thing holding me back is a lot of experienced admins are also involved here, and I would defer to their wisdom should they think it not a good idea, but this editor appears to lack the sufficient clue to avoid being an ongoing disruption. Perhaps they are just a kid and not sufficiently mature, perhaps they are not and have the same problem, but regardless of why, the problem seems clear. Dennis Brown - © 20:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a topic ban would be better. I agree with Dennis that the user is clearly both clueless AND ignorant, which is a problem. I am just not sure it's so severe to warrant an indef. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 20:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
A topic ban for what, though? Adding stub tags? That seems to be sorted out, but overall I don't see the required WP:COMPETENCE. Dennis, feel free from my end to block away. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I've indef blocked the editor. Perhaps at some time in the future, they will be capable of being a contributing member of the community, but it is obvious to me that this isn't possible now, if ever. Dennis Brown - © 00:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

request block review of WilliamJE[edit]

Block reviewed. While there was some involvement, the consensus here is that it did not grossly exceed the standard for "involvement". It was noted that reporting to the proper venue is a worthwhile (and usually preferred) option if the need to block isn't immediate. Bringing cases that *might* be problematic here for review is always the correct way to deal with them, and should be encouraged. Dennis Brown - © 21:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have blocked WilliamJE (talk · contribs) for edit warring, violating the spirit of WP:3RR, and not resolving the dispute at {{Criminal due process‎‎}} in good faith. I welcome comments, insight, suggestions, and even other admins rescinding the block if it seems appropriate. —EncMstr (talk) 20:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone reviewed this? The user has requested unblocking. —EncMstr (talk) 23:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
He actually has not requested unblocking ... although I have given him some advice if he does wish to amend it. Can you explain if you, the blocking admin, have actually been WP:INVOLVED with the article as per his claim? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Good block, not only edit warring, but showed a combative attitude and not listening when it suits him. Blackmane (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I see—he flubbed the template.
Yes, I did comment on the talk page. There are two (edit summaries as diff links): WP:REDNOT: not just navigation; +2 good examples of navtemplates with redlinks, and WP:REDNOT: not OSE, but see WP:REDLINK, MOS:DAB, and WP:SETINDEX. —EncMstr (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I'd say it's pretty borderline involved. EncMstr made a couple of comments, but I wouldn't really consider it as being a full blown dispute like WilliamJE had with Savidan. Blackmane (talk) 00:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks EncMstr, I can't really see that level of assistance as being involved. As per my decline of his unblock, I think it was also the right call (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I appreciate the extra eyes and minds. —EncMstr (talk) 00:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
As outlined above, EncMstr is clearly involved per WP policy as currently written. Given that policy pages are descriptive rather than prescriptive, if it is the community consensus that the fact pattern in this case does not constitute involved then the policy page should be updated to reflect that consensus. Nobody Ent 14:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
As the admin has recently stated support for the opposing position as the user he blocked it is marginally involved yes - but he brought it here and it is marginally - and there is support for the block here - I don't think community support is against wp:involved so that it needs changing just there are limited occasions when minor involvement such as this level might occur - It should perhaps better be discussed on the policy talkpage - but I don't think there would be consensus in a RFC that this level of involvement would be allowed or written into policy as acceptable. Youreallycan 14:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TopGun and DarknessShines[edit]

The thread got archived so, fyi, I'm going to close it there. Will be away from Wikipedia for a bit so if anyone objects and wants to undo it (with good reason!), go ahead. --regentspark (comment) 21:23, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Don't object to closing but don't think it should be done on archived thread, so I've unarchived it (below). Nobody Ent 22:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll notify both editors as well. --regentspark (comment) 17:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Possible outing and certain personal attacks on an AfD[edit]

Handled by The Bushranger on their talk page. Dennis Brown - © 14:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PeterPiperPickles (talk · contribs)

The above user posted a rather bizarre screed to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kali Bowyer. I'm not quite sure who they're addressing, but it smells strongly of WP:OUTING to me - can others take a look at it? - The Bushranger One ping only 21:51, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks somewhere between that, a legal threat, or an actual threat to me. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 22:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Borderline outing threat, watching. Dennis Brown - © 23:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Editor has retracted their remarks. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Non-admin comment - This user came into IRC earlier. Xe claimed to be dyslexic, and accused all of the editors who had commented before of being socks of the same user. The conversation was a little confusing, to be honest, but the whole "they're after me" mentality of this user stood out clear. I wish I had logs, but I never log #wikipedia-en-help connect. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 01:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Dyslexia is a disorder related to recognition of written characters and can cause people to read more slowly, but doesn't affect intelligence, mood, or behaviour. Blaming threatening behaviour or general craziness on dyslexia is no more valid than blaming it on tennis elbow or an ingrown toenail. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 11:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Constant Harassment from Hong Kong IP Addresses[edit]

Was declined by me at RFPP. If it were to continue, revisiting would be appropriate. Dennis Brown - © 14:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am constantly being belittled and bashed on by Hong Kong IP addresses. The newest one is 220.246.155.179 and I have severe confidence that this is an editor possibly on this site attempting to go against WP:PERSONAL on me after an AN/I investigation I opened. I'm tired of being harassed by this changing IP and certain people on this site. MusicFreak7676 TALK! 00:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I see one post to your talkpage recently, but nothing else ... can you provide links? I was willing to protect your talkpage, but with such little IP activity, it was hard to justify (and would have normally gone to WP:RFPP) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
They've done it beyond my talk page. They did it last time to my last AN/I thread and did nothing but bash me and belittle me. And do it on others talk pages. I'm tired of coming on here and having editors/IPs tell me what a horrible person and editor I am. MusicFreak7676 TALK! 00:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Hm. Sorta part of the game. What little harassment you've experienced is... nothing. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Well I find that as unfair, especially when they suffered zero consequence last time. MusicFreak7676 TALK! 00:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Nobody claimed it was fair. IPs get to harass you all they want. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Don't ever become an admin then. IP's and registered userid's get to bash, belittle, and tell you how horrible of an editor AND admin you are :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
That reminds me, BWilkins! You're a horrible editor AND admin. Now hold still while I hit you with a braid of wet noodles... NULL talk
edits
01:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Musicfreak7676, don't worry too much about comments like that. Even the best-behaved and diplomatic editors here end up ruffling someone's feathers. Chalk it up as vandalism by someone too cowardly to use their registered account, start a counter of 'number of times my talk page has been vandalised' and wear it like a trophy ;) NULL talk
edits
01:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Do you have proof that all of these IP addresses come from the same person? Farine (talk) 06:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Ultimatedriver[edit]

Clue deficiency leads to block. Dennis Brown - © 20:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user has made many inappropriate articles after I gave him/her a final warning. See User talk:Ultimatedriver the plethora of warnings this user has received.
Diffs:
[4]-1st inappr. page after final warning
[5]-2nd inappr. page after final warning
[6]-3rd inappr. page after final warning

I think this justifies an immediate block. I will notify in a second Thekillerpenguin (talk) 01:57, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Although I loathe when people come here and say "you should give him an immediate block", there have been so many inappropriate articles created by this editor, even after multiple warnings, I've given them an "it's about time you pay attention here" block. I'm AGF'ing that they are trying, but simply missing the definition of "notable" (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty preachy about giving final warnings before you block someone when possible, but this is one of those cases where it does make sense, even if an "offlabel" block. Warnings don't cure deafness, and actions without negative consequences tend to get repeated. Dennis Brown - © 19:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Restoration or "rollback" of material in The Beatles[edit]

Bbb23 nails it: For content, try article talk page, then WP:DRN. Save ANI for abusive incidents or as a last resort. Dennis Brown - © 14:46, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sorry to bother busy admins, however I need some outside input. I may well be wrong, overreacting, or both, however I am having an issue with User:DocKino at The Beatles. IMO, said user is inappropriately "rolling-back" sections of the article to one of their preferred versions, here or maybe here, without any prior discussion at the talk page or regard for the hours of work that had been put into the material since the last incarnation they endorsed. Disclosure: During my extensive copyedit of the article, I did in fact make many undiscussed deletions, however, to my knowledge no one ever reverted any of them of any substance, objected to or even discussed anything in that regard with me while I was devoting numerous hours copyediting the article. Indeed I have over 11,000 edits to my credit, over 1,000 at the Beatles article, and in 2.5 years only 47 total deleted edits. I would have been more than willing to discuss any of my edits, as they were occuring, however I do not think rolling them back months later, without any discussion is appropriate. Are these "restorations" of content or the use of "rollbacks" in a content dispute?

Examples:

I've omitted several examples that if taken alone, look like perfectly good content work, however, if you study the edits carefully, in their totality, you'll notice that 80-90% or more of the restored material is included nearly verbatim in either the FA version from nearly three years ago or this version from November 2011.

I've made numerous attempts to resolve issues with them at Talk:The Beatles, as well as at DocKino's talk page, to which I received no reply. Any thoughts, suggestions? — GabeMc (talk) 08:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why this content dispute belongs here. WP:ROLLBACK is a technical term at Wikipedia, and none of these changes is a rollback in that sense. In fact, DocKino doesn't have rollback rights. In the list of diffs above, the first two are dupes. Many of the first ones are quite old (some going back to April). There is a discussion on the Beatles Talk page. Continue it, and if it doesn't resolve to your satisfaction, proceed to the next steps (WP:DR). DocKino doesn't have to respond to you on his Talk page if he doesn't wish to, particularly in the case of article content where the Talk page is generally a better venue.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for a user to be blocked from editing African American page[edit]

No administrative action needed. OP advised to spend more time contributing to articles not to ANI.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Look at recent edits by the user "B-Machine". He strikes me as a person trying to push an agenda although due to the flying boomerang I am reluctant to use the word "racist" as I have in the past. Am I allowed to state that, as a person of European and Hispanic descent, I personally feel some of his comments to be racist and offensive, and that he seems to have a strongly anti-Hispanic, anti-European agenda? Just a small selection of his comments I have come across:

  • "The overwhelming majority of black people in the U.S. have no trace of Indian heritage at all. A few do, but most don't. All of that lightness is from white European men having their way with black African women. It could be a romanticization of our past, which is wrong because it attempts to rewrite our history since some Indian tribes had black slaves and treated them like shit"
  • "AfricanAmericans don't really engage in interracial screwing" (even though there is huge scientific to the contrary)
  • "jazz is black music, rock and roll is black music, hip-hop, blues, R & B, it's all black" (all those non-black performers of these music?).

The above points are gleaned from just looking through a tiny section of his editing history, I'm sure there is much more stuff and probably much more serious stuff.

I could be wrong but he has a history of disruptive editing, lots of ANIs about him. I don't come on Wikipedia much and I am a beginner editor, so apologies if I've done something wrong here, I just worry this kind of hatred will worm its way onto WP. At best, I find him to have a highly non-NPOV. At worst, I truthfully find him highly offensive and racist, although perhaps B-machine doesn't mean it. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 16:59, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  • Leaf Green Warrior, reading through the article talk pages and my experiences with your history at ANI makes it clear that your threshold for who and what is "racist" is quite low, as it is a term you have a habit of throwing around a bit too often and a bit too casually. You and B-machine both have quite fixed POVs, and I would suggest you simply take articles to WP:DRN. I don't see a need for a boomerang right now, but I do see two sides of the same coin with both of you often equally wrong just in different ways, which is why you need to go to dispute resolution. Dennis Brown - © 14:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
There is no dispute. I haven't been on Wikipedia for many weeks. I dropped in and saw what I personally see as more racism from this user, hence this ANI. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 16:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I dunno, Leaf. I can understand your feathers getting ruffled by his comments, but they were on the talk page, not the article, and don't seem overtly uncivil. Just charged opinion statements, common in this type of article which require thick skin to edit. I'd suggest avoiding the term "racist", even if you believe it to be true, and use "non-NPOV" instead. Quinn SUNSHINE 16:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
@LGW: So you just happen to be on User talk:Georgia Bird or are you following B-machine around? I'm trying to figure out why you are here, if there is some issue between you and he, or if you are just running to tell on him or what. I'm not inclined to go spank him for simply having an opinion that others disagree with, on talk pages. Dennis Brown - © 16:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
As someone who is unfamiliar with some of the history here, I recommend, LGW, that you spend less time at ANI and more time contributing to articles. And if there are disagreements about content, focus on the content not the editors involved, even if you think they don't and no mattter how much of an "agenda" you think they have. Your diffs above are from late April, early May, which is about the time you were at ANI before, then you take a break, and come right back to ANI. This is not a help desk.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
PLEASE can we stick to the central point here. Here is the central point: I feel the comments of the above user are racist and offensive to me personally. If the admin agrees, then please can action be taken against the user. If the admin does not agree then I respect your opinion but would be saddened that you do not share my view.Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Since you are directly asking for Admin response, I (being a non-admin) will not comment further unless asked, other than to say that I think you are missing the point here. No one, admin or not, is in a position to agree/disagree what personally offends you. The question is what are they (admins) going to do about it? Probably nothing and close this as pointless discussion. Quinn SUNSHINE 17:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
We are sticking to the point, just not necessarily the way you wish us to. I don't know who "the admin" is, but the consensus is that this topic doesn't belong here. Most of the stuff you complain of is back-and-forth on Talk pages and doesn't warrant sanctions. Your diff about the Hip hop article is from January 2012 and B-machine's change has long since been removed. I'll give you another opportunity to respond and then I'll close this unless someone beats me to it.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
"the consensus is that this topic doesn't belong here" I see. Where do you suggest that I complain about this, and where can I request that this user be banned for these comments (which, in my opinion, are racist and highly offensive)? Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Nowhere. You don't have enough to propose, let alone impose, a topic ban (I can't imagine you mean a total ban). You need to continue to work on the articles and work with the editors who also work on the articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure how liberal Wikipedia admins are with total bans, but I would personally hope for a total ban for this user (at least for a period of time). As stated, I personally find comments made by this user to be offensive and racist, and I don't believe a total ban is out of the question. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 17:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for a user to be blocked from editing African American page[edit]

Deja vu. And I am an admin, who has a boomerang in his hand, ready to deploy. Dennis Brown - © 18:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trying this again as the admin who closed my last one refused to answer why he closed it, telling me to, I quote, "go away". Politely request that the admin (Bbb23) in question stays away from this ANI as he seems unable to grasp it

Look at recent edits by the user "B-Machine". He strikes me as a person trying to push an agenda although due to the flying boomerang I am reluctant to use the word "racist" as I have in the past. Am I allowed to state that, as a person of European and Hispanic descent, I personally feel some of his comments to be racist and offensive, and that he seems to have a strongly anti-Hispanic, anti-European agenda? Just a small selection of his comments I have come across:

  • "The overwhelming majority of black people in the U.S. have no trace of Indian heritage at all. A few do, but most don't. All of that lightness is from white European men having their way with black African women. It could be a romanticization of our past, which is wrong because it attempts to rewrite our history since some Indian tribes had black slaves and treated them like shit"
  • "AfricanAmericans don't really engage in interracial screwing" (even though there is huge scientific to the contrary)
  • "jazz is black music, rock and roll is black music, hip-hop, blues, R & B, it's all black" (all those non-black performers of these music?).

The above points are gleaned from just looking through a tiny section of his editing history, I'm sure there is much more stuff and probably much more serious stuff.

I could be wrong but he has a history of disruptive editing, lots of ANIs about him. I don't come on Wikipedia much and I am a beginner editor, so apologies if I've done something wrong here, I just worry this kind of hatred will worm its way onto WP. At best, I find him to have a highly non-NPOV. At worst, I truthfully find him highly offensive and racist, although perhaps B-machine doesn't mean it. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Heh, I considered reverting this, but that wouldn't afford me the opportunity to request that LGW be sanctioned. Please see discussion on my Talk page. Apparently, LGW is unable/unwilling to contribute in a productive manner. BTW, LGW, I am not an admin.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
If you are unwilling to discuss the topic then please refrain from posting in this ANI. If you have unrelated things you would like to say, then my talk page is open. Thanks Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

In summary, I feel offended by this user and personally believe many of the comments he made to be racist. If an admin agrees with this then please can action be taken against the user, such as a total ban or a topic ban. If an admin disagrees with this then I respect your opinion on the matter. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 18:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually the quote of Bbb23 you made is from his personal Talk page, he did, in fact, answer you above with "OP advised to spend more time contributing to articles not to ANI". This is not a flowchart where you say "this guy is racist" and someone is required to answer "yes, he is racist" or "no, he isn't". A valid response to you might be, "Why do you keep saying this guy is racist?" or "What actions have you taken leading up to this?"
Considering that you have called someone racist more times in two months than I have in 2 years, you might be well-served by a little introspection into what racist is and is not. -- Avanu (talk) 18:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
"Why do you keep saying this guy is racist?" see the examples given in my original post above for reasons why I personally feel offended by these (in my opinion) racist comments. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 18:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Once again, please stay on topic. Are the edits made by this editor racist? If so, I request sanctions be taken against him. Thank you. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 18:33, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment by Starkiller88[edit]

The deed is done. Dennis Brown - © 19:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
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Moved from WQA: Nobody Ent 18:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Following a long series of trolling/vandalism by Starkiller88, he was finally blocked and banned indefinitely. He pleaded to the administrators for another chance and was allowed to continue editing, but to abstain from certain topics. Since then, he has started a harrassment campaign on my talk page and introduced false information in my user page: [7]. His messages range from pleads to "redemption" [8], claims a compulsion to vandalize [9], and lately, blaming me for infecting his computer with a computer virus/trojan [10]. Today he escalated with personal attacks: [11], [12]. He also does edits under IP numbers starting with 115. Thank you. -BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I've moved this from WQA as I believe admin action is appropriate. Please see also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive752#User:Starkiller88 Nobody Ent 18:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done I've indef blocked him since the last indef block appears to not have been long enough. Dennis Brown - © 19:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

    • If he really was topic banned he clearly went straight back to editing about the Russian space programme and I can't see what else he would have been topic banned from as his previous disruption was Phobos Grunt related. Secretlondon (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threat[edit]

Blocked per NLT
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I received this [13] message on my talk regarding Abhay Kumar because I had previously reverted vandalism on that article via Huggle. But when I started looking at the talk pages of the suspected vandals, I found this threat[14] by the editor who originally requested my assistance. "I've called the police on you," sure looks like a legal threat to me. DarkAudit (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Review of my actions at Bus monitor bullying video[edit]

Moved to BLPN Dennis Brown - © 00:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've recently revdel'd some content on this article as it revealed the names of the minor's involved and ask that someone double checks my actions seeing as how it;s been questioned on the talk page. As I stated at my RfA I'm not very strong on BLP and only come across this as the article due to it being mentioned at Greece Athena High School, an article I had watchlisted for copyright reasons.

I also suspect that this article may generally need more eyes. Dpmuk (talk) 21:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  • I've moved this to WP:BLPN which is a better venue. That is all they do there. Dennis Brown - © 00:44, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

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User Ronnie42 - Account used solely for disruptive editing[edit]

Ronnie42 (talk · contribs) I was really on the fence on whether to use this or just go straight to the incidents/vandalism noticeboard, but for the sake of discussion I'm bringing it here. Ronnie is an incredibly difficult user - he has a long history of editing against consensus and removing the same material from one article -1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 - before, during and after 1, 2,3,4 separate discussions to reach consensus. His methodology can be summed up by this edit; he'll do what he wants until someone proves him wrong. He's been told by numerous editors to read about various wikipedia policies and that his editing is disruptive but he dismissing all of this as trolling or vandalism (see this bewildering notice he left on one of the Noticeboards). In addition to this specific issue above, the vast majority of Ronnie's edits fall into two categories - Treating talk pages as forums (and this makes up the bulk of his usage, see his full edit history for a litany of examples; he's been cautioned and had edits reverted, only to be reverted back, several times by Ronnie) - and finally, outright vandalism, vandalism and more vandalism. In fact, his entire first year was used for nothing but. Lastly, and most importantly, I can't find a single constructive edit that Ronnie has made. For five years this user has popped up every few weeks or months to soapbox, vandalize and disrupt, and I can't see any reason why we'd keep him around. --Williamsburgland (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

  • Seems more a case for both WP:DRN and WP:WQA. His calling good faith edits as vandalism and throwing around the term "troll" is problematic. Dennis Brown - © 15:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I'll give the a shot if you think I should, but given that he's been offered help, directed to Wikipedia policy pages, cautioned and warned throughout his Wiki career, only to completely ignore what anyone (and it's not just me) has to say, I don't expect a positive outcome. If you feel I should move this anyway, please let me know. --Williamsburgland (talk) 15:43, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I think once you have a consensus at DRN, it becomes easier to see when someone is being disruptive by reverting against that consensus. Dennis Brown - © 16:05, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your input, and sorry for the delay. The consensus was the result of several discussions on the articles talk page; should I bring that up, or just the reverting? Also, should I just copy and paste it there?--Williamsburgland (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Diffs are usually enough. Dennis Brown - © 00:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I just posted it here... if you could take a look and let me know if it looks alright I'd be most appreciative. --Williamsburgland (talk) 14:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Like to point this as slander. I have already pointed facts while User:Williamsburgland constantly attacks me directly, removes facts that have been mentioned, constantly. Example is here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Reliability_of_Wikipedia&action=history He has been going of his way to 'WikiHounding/User space harassment'. The member has been using the talk pages to force opinions, disrupts several talk pages, have already warned this member, have been ignored frequently. This thread itself proofs what I'm talking about by saying 'Account used solely for disruptive editing' which is a lie, used to help provoke more responses. I have this account for nearly 5 years, most times I have minor comments about things that need changing, have helped with the community like mention series like south park that needed updated informtion like here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mecha-Streisand I have over the years made consistent notes on wiki talk pages of missing information. I'm clearly offended, have asked previously about support being taken against this user, have not heard anything yet. For the record Forums are for a place to talk about 'opinions', all I have stated are facts, the User:Williamsburgland has consistently ignored the facts, tried to turn pages into flamewars.The page itself is an example of the harrasement I have to put up with it, follows my recent contributions without regard aka Wikihounding --Ronnie42 (talk) 23:42, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually I'd like to concur entirely with Williamsburgland's summary above, it's unfortunate but Ronnie42 is impossible to communicate with, his responses are irrational, difficult to decipher, even contradictory at times, and he appears completely intent on continuing his or her disruptive editing with no regard to anything anyone says, or to consider wikipedia policy and guidelines.Number36 (talk) 09:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the South Park reference is supposed to be, but anyone that clicks on the first link for the edit history of Talk:Reliability of Wikipedia can see that another user reverted Ronnie's soapboxing, which he then reverted. I simply reverted it back. Since he's done it a second time I've given up. At this point I'll likely open WQA case as well given Ronnie's tendency to throw the word 'troll' and 'slander' around.--Williamsburgland (talk) 16:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is the WQA discussion. --Williamsburgland (talk) 19:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Once again I added facts on Talk:Reliability of Wikipedia which had nothing directly aimed at User:Williamsburgland. 2ndly it was User:Williamsburgland who deleted my passage while 'trolling', going out of his way to attack/provoke, forcing control over talk pages. The only person who edited on Talk:Mecha-Streisand can clearly see someone accusing me of turning the page into the talk page while I only sourced actual episodes as the source. Its similar to the Evil Dead in the Talk:List_of_zombie_films which was ignored, I already stated there was no proof whatsoever of the 'Deadites' being zombies. Even read the wiki page: The_Evil_Dead_(franchise) It clearly says 'This time the evil creatures are explicitly referred to as deadites.' I have tried to repeat several times to give evidence, even stated the fact that nowhere in the films were they known as 'zombies', all I got was opinions, unreliable sources that weren't created as a joke. Here's a link I posted 'http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2010/02/26/the-crazies-is-not-a-zombie-movie-and-neither-are-these-five-thrillers/' which even states very clearly 'Linda shouldn't be classified as a zombie attack, as her body has been repossessed by evil spirits', even this: wiki/Deadite clearly states that there "Deadites are creatures, most commonly people, that have become possessed by evil spirits (demons) in the Evil Dead universe". For the record I'm getting tired of user:Williamsburgland and its people like that question the reliability of Wikipedia. If something isn't done against user:Williamsburgland then I will be forced to petition against this site. I apologise if this offends but too many users like Williamsburgland forces their opinions on others, starting to sound like 'Fascism'. --Ronnie42 (talk) 23:38, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean "petition against this site"? Nobody Ent 23:57, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Ronnie42, first of all please read WP:NPA. Secondly, please carefully read WP:NLT, as your commnent about "to petition against this site" sounds like it could be intended to cause a chilling effect. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Ronnie, several upon several people agree that the films in question belong on the list, it ain't just me. The references used are indeed reliable, and you've never made any argument as to why they aren't. Meanwhile, as I've already pointed out to you, the link you've used is for a blog, which is not reliable. The fact that the word 'Zombie' does not appear in the original Night of the living dead has been pointed out to and summarily ignored by you. You dismiss statements made by anyone else as opinions while insisting that every bewildering statement you make is pure fact. Take your statement on the talk page you mentioned above - you state that you agree with the statement that Wikipedia is unreliable, and then post a link that purportedly backs up your statement. I'm shouldn't even bother pointing out that I wasn't the first person to remove your statement, but I will point out that the expressed purpose of both the Wiki article and the blog article that you posted is to debate whether or not wikipedia is reliable - and it's a debate because there are no definitive facts in the matter. There aren't any debates to determine if the ocean is salty, or if water is wet, because these concern known, demonstrable facts. Even more bizarre is this statement - where you insist that I'm making stuff up, saying "Stop making stuff up. I never mentioned 'Crazies' movie." Then how exactly do you explain this statement, where you very clearly do. Now you're talking about some south park episode, and while I can't even begin to understand what that has to do with this current debate, I'm sure it somehow demonstrates (to you) that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Well I'm done with it. From our first interaction I've done my best to be patient with you, to direct you to helpful links on Wikipedia policies and to explain why the consensus is what it is. From here on out I'm done - the consensus has been demonstrated half a dozen times and I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to consider further reverts as disruptive editing from here on out. --Williamsburgland (talk) 18:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Harassment by User:Dolphin51[edit]

Both editors buried the hatchet at the end of this thread. Unless something seriously goes wrong, and of course it can, this appears resolved. This is the first ANI thread I have closed and I am not an admin, so feel free to undo or whateve, thank you, --Mollskman (talk) 02:59, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Dolphin51 and I had a rather negative interaction in February over a GAN (in which he insisted I insert OR into the article to satisfy his opinions). I disengaged and walked away. He apparently has not. After inviting himself to my talkpage in March, I thought I told him he was not welcome on my talk page in no uncertain terms. The obvious implication was for him take my talkpage off of his watchlist and walk away. Apparently I was incorrect. He has since inserted his nose where it does not belong, and seems to have no intention of leaving me alone. I have no idea why he is fixated on me, but I would like it to stop. Parsecboy (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

No editor, more particularly an Admin, should not be stating that another editor "inserted his nose where it does not belong", especially when referring to a post on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
The editor is clearly stalking me. If the argument was that he regularly volunteered at the noticeboard, that would be different, but these are his first edits there. He had no way of finding the discussion apart from my talk page, which he apparently has watchlisted. He has repeatedly ignored requests that he stay away from me. This is not an unreasonable request. Parsecboy (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Parsecboy, you asked this user to stay off your talk page which they have done. this edit was not to your talk page and does not seem unreasonable - unlike your description of it as inserting his nose somewhere... Are you asking for an interaction ban, and on what grounds? I don't see what Dolphin51 is currently doing as harrassment, I must say. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 16:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
No, what I said was "I do not want any further interaction with you." Wikipedia is a big place; he doesn't need to be following me around. Instead, all I get is a glib response that might as well be "fuck you". I want him to take my talkpage off his watchlist. If an IBAN is what it will take to keep him away from me, fine. I want to be left alone. I don't understand why Dolphin finds this so hard to do. Parsecboy (talk) 16:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
This is one of those times where, for me, there are different rules for admins and others. I think as a class we need to grow thicker skins than other users and have a higher tolerance for nuisance. I don't regard what Dolphin is doing as particularly problematic in any case, and I'd expect you as an admin to be able to shrug this off. However, you clearly don't agree and I may be way off beam. I'll bow out here and let others chip in if they have a view. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 17:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
You don't feel like its harassment? Isn't that great. Shucks, that makes me feel all better now.
All I want is for him to go find some other part of the project to do whatever it is that he does, and leave me in peace. There is absolutely no reason why he ever has to insinuate himself in my business. It clearly is not productive. And he obviously is unwilling to heed the simple request that he spend his time elsewhere, hence the reason for this discussion. Parsecboy (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of requests to stay away from talk pages, but I understand they are accepted. Howver, interaction bans requested unilaterally are not permitted. And even if a mutual interaction ban is accepted, it doesn't mean that someone can be told not to post potentially relevant information on a noticeboard. (I wrote this before seeing the post above, but I concur with the thought.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:39, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Explain to me why he has to post anything? There's a difference between being able to do something and actually doing it. That Wikipedia happens in public does not mean everything on the site is your business, or that you have a right to do whatever you want, regardless of other people. If his intentions were as pure as you seem to think they are, why can't he accept a simple request to leave me alone? Parsecboy (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Concur Dolphin51 should not be inserting themselves into Parsecboy's business. However, DRN and the Tirpitz article are not "Parsecboys" business, they're Wikipedia's business, and Dolphin51 is perfectly justified in commenting on them. Nobody Ent 19:18, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Did you not read what I just said? Being allowed to do something does not mean you have to do it. I have made clear that I do not want to interact with Dolphin. Why is his harassing behavior perfectly acceptable to all of you? It's this kind of ridiculous bullshit that drives content creators away from this site. Parsecboy (talk) 19:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I believe what Parsec is trying to get at is that Dolphin is only posting to DRN, the Tirpitz article, etc. because Parsec has. I.E. WP:HOUNDING. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:55, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
That is exactly what I'm getting at. Parsecboy (talk) 21:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────Then it seems to me the next thing to do is to ascertain whether Dolphin is actually hounding you. I don't doubt for a second that a) Dolphin is giving the superficial appearance of hounding you and b) that you are feeling hounded by Dolphin. The question is whether Dolphin is participating in the same discussions you are because you share interests, or because they are following you around. I'm making no assertion one way or the other, because I've only perused the diffs here, not gone deeper into the conflict's history. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 21:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

My areas of activity are limited pretty much to warship-related articles, an area I have never seen Dolphin edit (apart from the GAN which marked our first interaction); I have no idea where he spends his time editing, nor do I really care. As far as I can tell, he has no interest in the Tirpitz dispute other than the fact that I am an involved party. As I noted above, he has never done anything at DRN previously in any capacity, which makes it seem obvious that his presence there is based solely on mine. Parsecboy (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I had a look at Dolphin's contribs, and his area of interest seems to be airplanes, especially airplane crashes. That's not completely unrelated to your warships area of interest, although there's only limited overlap. The point about DRN is a good one. That said, I'm not sure what remedies would be appropriate. Has he been continuing the behavior since you made this report? If not, what remedy do you seek? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 22:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
He hasn't edited since this morning - I suspect he's in another time zone. Ideally, it would be nice if he would voluntarily agree to refrain from interacting with me directly. But since he seems to have no inclination to do so, perhaps the best option at this point would be a clearly-worded warning from an uninvolved admin along those same lines. In he continues to hound me after that, it will be a basis for further actions, whatever may be fit. I am more than happy to let sleeping dogs lie—something I've been trying to do since our initial encounter in February; I wish he would do the same. Parsecboy (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Parsecboy, why don't you just stop editing? Then you will not have any interaction with said user? If Dolphin is stalking your edits and harrassing you, then Dolphin should be santioned by the community. If Dolphin is not found to be harrassing you, then it seems like you can't really say what he should and shouldn't be editing. This makes no judgement as to Dolphins actions. --Mollskman (talk) 01:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Are you seriously suggesting I stop editing Wikipedia because he's stalking me? Parsecboy (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
No. IF he is stalking you, he should be sanctioned. IF he isn't, then you need to move along. --Mollskman (talk) 02:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
It would be more useful if you actually looked into a situation before you comment on it... Parsecboy (talk) 03:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
...Mollskman, that's really not helping. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Correct me if I'm wrong, but Parsec came here for neutral editors to look into the matter, not just getting a regurgitation of policy. And "why don't you stop editing?" Really? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

───────────────────────── As a preface, I'm not neutral in this because I've collaborated with Parsec on quite a few articles. Still, I think my views will hold some merit. First, let me assure you that the area Dolphin edits in, civil air crashes, never overlaps with First World War-era warships. Military aviation in later time periods, yes, but non-military WWI aviation, no. Second, when an editor is feeling hounded by another, and there's a long-term pattern of subtle edits to anger said editor, how does that not meet WP:HOUNDING? As Nobody Ent says, Dolphin is free to comment on any DRN or the Tirpitz article, but when there's no pattern of engaging in similar discussions, that should tell you he's only there because Parsec is involved. There's my two cents, take it how you will. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Parsecboy has provided only two incidents of unsolicited contact made by Dolphin (after that initial GAN), and these were three months apart. Is that all, or were there others? I find it hard to accept a total of two contacts as a pattern of "hounding". Fut.Perf. 07:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, my thanks to everyone who has stopped by to read this thread and add a contribution. Your efforts are appreciated. Secondly, my apologies for the delay in responding. I have been working on several tasks today and none of them involved a computer!
It seems Parsecboy’s current issue with my behaviour is related to my participation in a request for dispute resolution. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Wrong source usage in German battleship Tirpitz page: incorrect details. This request for dispute resolution was not raised by Parsecboy. It was raised by User:Zh.Mike, a new user with fewer than 60 edits, and for whom English is not his first language. I was moved to take an interest in Zh.Mike’s request for dispute resolution because I could see that Zh.Mike was a newby who had been poorly treated by the Military History fraternity. If you don’t know what I mean when I say Zh.Mike has been poorly treated please see Zh.Mike’s TALK page.
I have made only two edits to Zh.Mike's dispute resolution thread. See diff1 and diff2. The first was intended to pour oil on troubled waters and to acknowledge that Zh.Mike had acted appropriately by seeking dispute resolution because he had been poorly treated. That first edit mentions an edit by Parsecboy, a highly experienced editor and sysop. The second edit makes no mention of Parsecboy, either explicitly or implicitly. If I am guilty of being a serial offender, it is my first edit, the one that mentioned one of Parsecboy’s edits, that constitutes the long trail of similar offences.
If Zh.Mike takes the view that my participation in the dispute resolution thread is inappropriate or unwanted I would most likely withdraw graciously because it is Zh.Mike’s thread; he is the plaintiff. Parsecboy is the defendant so when he takes the view that I have inserted my nose where it doesn’t belong that is not a view that I can accommodate. I see nothing to indicate that Zh.Mike regards my participation as inappropriate.
In the views expressed on this thread I see some that suggest I should not participate in Zh.Mike’s request for dispute resolution because I know nothing about the Tirpitz or German naval ships. Firstly, there is nothing written anywhere on Wikipedia to suggest that a User can only participate in mediation or dispute resolution if he is an acknowledged expert on the article around which the dispute is centered. Secondly, I am not without knowledge about German naval ships. Earlier this year Parsecboy nominated two similar articles for Good Article status. I volunteered to review them, and invested a substantial amount of my time in doing so. Have a look at my work at:
Regardless of all that has happened between Parsecboy and me, and regardless of the outcome of this thread, Parsecboy will always be welcome on my User Talk page. Dolphin (t) 14:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
OOC, Parsec may be welcome on your talk page, but given your kindness above, would you agree to not interact with him so we save everyone involved from large amounts of unwanted drama? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 17:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi Ed. Your observations, and your request, are reasonable. If Parsecboy was an ordinary User like me I would have no hesitation in doing as you suggest. But Parsecboy is no ordinary User - he is a sysop! Parsecboy is a sysop willing to indulge in inappropriate edits and to bite newbies, and I am a whistleblower. Don't ever imagine it will be a good solution to the problem of abuse of trust and power to silence the whistleblower - not for the Roman Catholic church and not for Wikipedia. If Parsecboy is willing to relinquish his adminship I will agree to no longer hold him to account for his actions. Dolphin (t) 02:14, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The last thing we need are more self-appointed wiki police. And you are not going to bully me into resigning the bit. If I were as abusive as you suggest, you would not be the only person to hold the opinion. But I have thus far received no complaints. I suggest you might be overreacting. Parsecboy (talk) 02:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Your response says more than I ever could have. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Dolphin, my problem with you is the fact that you seem to be fixated on me, not that you participated in a given discussion, per se. The Tirpitz issue is largely irrelevant in this discussion. You wouldn't even know about the Tirpitz dispute if you didn't have my talk page on your watchlist. I would not have a problem participating in a discussion with you if you had come to it out of mere coincidence. But this instance is a glaring demonstration of the fact that you seem intent on following me around. Why can you not honor the simple request to remove my talk page from your watchlist and leave me in peace?
Perhaps you intended to pour oil on troubled water, but to continue the metaphor, you poured gasoline on a fire instead. Your presence there is distracting from the actual issues and is not helpful. In any case, Zh.Mike doesn't own the thread any more or less than I or anyone else.
As for the Tirpitz issue itself, my comment on Zh.Mike's talk page came after several months of entertaining his attempts to insert what amounts to Soviet propaganda based on his own original research and faulty readings of secondary sources, and after he turned to trying to force the changes after Denniss and I abandoned the effort on the talk page.
No one said you shouldn't participate in the discussion because you don't know about German warships. I (and others) said you wouldn't have otherwise found out about the discussion based on your areas of activity. If you regularly edited articles on German warships, then you could conceivably have found out on your own. That was the point.
As an aside, I read this earlier today - you might find it interesting. Parsecboy (talk) 17:59, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to Space Invaders. I have had a quick look and I agree it is interesting. I will read it more closely tomorrow. Cheers. Dolphin (t) 12:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi Parsecboy. If it is true that I am following you around it will be a simple matter to provide the diffs of my most recent edits. That will show the frequency of my interaction with you, and the nature of my comments. Just post the most recent diffs here on this thread and we can make progress from there. Best regards. Dolphin (t) 02:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Did you see the line about you finding the Tirpitz discussion only because you had my talk page watchlisted? QED. Parsecboy (talk) 02:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Just post the most recent diffs and we can make progress from there. Dolphin (t) 02:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Why on earth do you think playing games is helpful? Parsecboy (talk) 03:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Dolphin51 writing If Parsecboy is willing to relinquish his adminship I will agree to no longer hold him to account for his actions is very telling imho. Dolphin51, it is not up to you to hold anybody accountable with unreasonable demands,ie giving up admin status. That is worst than me telling Parseboy to avoid you by not editing. The communitty is the one that reviews editors actions and passes judgement, not yourself. --Mollskman (talk) 03:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi Mollskman. You have made a good point. My choice of wording was too brief I apologize for that. I will re-state my view more comprehensively and hopefully get it right second time: I hold all Users who are sysops to a higher standard of accountability than the standard I apply to Users who are not sysops. If Parsecboy relinquishes his adminship then naturally I will no longer hold him to account to the standard I apply to sysops. Dolphin (t) 07:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Dolphin, stop WP:HOUNDING. Now. You're not the Wikipolice, and your declared intent to continue stalking Parsecboy's edits is troubling to the point that I'm wondering if a block to prevent the disruption that stalking causes is in order. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

To all - just post the diffs and then we can make progress. Dolphin (t) 07:10, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you retract your statement If Parsecboy is willing to relinquish his adminship I will agree to no longer hold him to account for his actions, and all variations thereof, and agree that following their edits is behavior that is against the principles and spirit of Wikipedia and agree not to undertake such action? - The Bushranger One ping only 09:21, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I unreservedly retract the statement, and all variations thereof. It was meant to clarify but apparently it also offended. That was never my intention so I apologize for any distress or injury that has been caused. Dolphin (t) 11:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Awesome. As long as you don't hound Parsecboy, ie, follow his edits and show up where you have never edited before to battle him, we are good to go. I would suggest taking his talk page off your watch list, if its on there, and any other articles that might be "problems" as well. Parsecboy, if you feel like you are still be hounded, please provide differences and let the communitty act. Can this small bit of wiki drama now be ended? Thnak you. --Mollskman (talk) 12:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
There you go, then. Mollskman makes a good suggestion to go along with that, and that should resolve the issue. Face-smile.svg - The Bushranger One ping only 16:06, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Thanks Mollskman and Bushranger. I agree the life has almost expired from this thread and we are close to a satisfactory end. I feel a little like the man who is asked if he will stop beating his wife. I need to word my response carefully so it doesn’t appear that I am confessing to something to which I cannot confess.

With all honesty I can write the following:

I have never hounded Parsecboy and no-one has supplied any evidence (diffs) to support any allegation that I have. I have no intention of beginning to hound Parsecboy or anyone else in the future.
I have never stalked or harassed Parsecboy and no-one has supplied any evidence (diffs) to support any allegation that I have. I have no intention of beginning to stalk or harass Parsecboy or anyone else in the future.

Much has been written here by Parsecboy and others to link Parsecboy’s Talk page with the concept of me following him around. If Parsecboy has a genuine fear of me using his Talk page for that purpose I can assure him his fears are unfounded. He need have no anxiety about that process and I will explain why. We write very little on our own Talk pages. It is others who write things on our Talk page. Sometimes we reply, but not always. It is not possible to look at a User’s Talk page and determine where that User is editing, what he is writing, how frequently he is editing or what topics interest him. That information is simply not available on a User’s Talk page. (It is only available at that User’s Contribution List.) So it is impossible for me or anyone else to use Parsecboy’s Talk page to mount unwanted activities such as stalking him, hounding him or following him around. If Parsecboy fears his Talk page is being used for such unwanted activities by me or others he can shed those fears because they are unfounded.

@Parsecboy: If there is a hatchet above ground between us, let’s bury it. I am willing. As I have written before, you are always welcome at my Talk page. (And please notice I have eliminated all the double spaces between sentences in this statement!) Cheers. Dolphin (t) 22:51, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I would be more than happy to bury said hatchet. I'm not one for grudges. If we can both behave ourselves, you're welcome at my talkpage as well. I think we can put this thread to rest.
I'm glad you liked the Slate article (it won me the argument between my wife and I). Parsecboy (talk) 02:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Syrian Civil War (2011–present)[edit]

RM closed, title reverted, rotten tomatoes thrown further down the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:33, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There appears to be a dispute here with the article's title, a huge move request is on the talk page and a editor moved the article before it was closed, while some are claiming that a consensus was reached another editor is demanding that the name be changed back. In summary this needs an admin to intervene here as the article was moved before an official consensus could be reached it seems. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Move back to original status A colleague has unilaterally moved the article to a civil war. This unilateral move by one individual is a matter of grave concern and contrary to all etiquette between colleagues. Very importantly, this goes contrary to general Wikipedia practice when a move is still in discussion. With widespread discussion going on, it is not the time to be BOLD. This is a very premature and ill-advised move that has been done. It should be immediately reverted until an admin closes all arguments for a concensus. I repeat that this is not a popularity contest nor an ideological agenda. We are not here to "create history ourselves" simply because we have rights to move an article according to our conception of what a situation is. Particularly when it has been subject to so much pro and con discussion, the status quo and the original title should prevail until closed by an administrator with a resume of all ideas taken into consideration. Until then, original status quo must prevail. werldwayd (talk) 02:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Permit the new status and close discussion: The discussion has already reached past the 7 day vote, to which 70% of the editors agreed that civil war is the correct title name. I7laseral (talk) 03:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It is not for you to decide what is the concensus we have reached since you have an agenda here and bias to one side of the argument. Your edit history for one year and more is only for Syrian uprising-related matters and nearly nothing else. You have no general contributions to Wikipedia as such to decide on what a concensus we reached. You have come here with an agenda and your opinion is a very biased one. Until true concensus is reached and decided by an independent side, an admin of high ranking with an expertise in such moves, you have to limit yourself to taking part in discussion, and not behave unilaterally as is obvious from the way you have handled the page. werldwayd (talk) 03:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC).
In addition to it being pretty obvious that it's a civil war, sources are calling it such, more and more. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The problem is not everyone thinks so, having the page moved before the move discussion could be closed through an uninvolved admin on the talk page was a powderkeg. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I note that USAToday still calls it an "uprising".[15] I suppose it doesn't become a "civil war" until the other side has a reasonable chance of winning. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:21, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

If you truly was a vote, as I7laseral says, and the UN also believes that this civil war, in this case the new title is correct. Doncsecztalk 08:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. - The Bushranger One ping only 16:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Well I just closed the discussion as "no consensus". Suppose we might as well start the review of my actions now... Dpmuk (talk) 23:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Competition between Airbus and Boeing[edit]

User User talk:Alainmoscoso (suspected Sock Puppets User talk:70.168.134.209 and User_talk:68.100.216.166) has made repeated disruptive unsubstantiated edits and reverts to the Competition between Airbus and Boeing despite efforts by other users to persuade him/her to stop on talk pages. The user has a history of bad behaviour towards the page. WatcherZero (talk) 23:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I did not know that bad behavior was to help improving a page. Please refer to the sources I provided before saying it is "unsubstantiated". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 01:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I added "2011 Orders by Value" column and is being removed from the topic constantly. I already gave the sources being Airbus & Boeing own websites and proof where they mentioned those numbers and still seems not to be enough evidence. What better source than the own companies' websites? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 00:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
No comment on your complaint, but to answer your question: company websites are usually considered primary sources, which are not preferred. A better source would be an industry trade-magazine, or an editorial reviewed media source, that contains the same info, except (hopefully) with some fact checking involved. Quinn SUNSHINE 02:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources; their own reports are primary self-published sources, and while almost certainly reliable in this area barring the occasional typo, do not establish the information as noteworthy that analysis be an uninvolved third party reliable source would. Kudos to you for wanting to and being even handed with both, but it really need to be externally referenced if it's going to be included. You should find those sources first, then try to develop consensus on the article's talk page. Dru of Id (talk) 02:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Weve had this discussion, the sources you provide dont actually support the claims you make, you keep on insisting on using original research to estimate the revenue based on aircraft list prices which are never actually paid by the airlines who often pay as little as half the list price. Neother company publically breaks down revenue by aircraft type because its a commercial secret and you even keep adding a positive revenue from the cancellation of an order. WatcherZero (talk) 02:11, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Could you please explain me then why they talk that way when it comes to announce their orders: "Airbus had a record order intake of 1,608 (1,419 net) commercial aircraft, worth US$169 billion gross (US$140 billion net) at list prices"[16]. Yes, we've discussed this before and you still keep bringing revenue. This information has nothing to do with their revenue or the real prices they sell their airplanes for. This information is the value of their orders at their list prices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 02:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

If you want more proof "OSLO, Norway, Jan. 25, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) and Norwegian have announced a firm order for 100 fuel-efficient 737 MAX airplanes and 22 Next-Generation 737-800s. The total order is valued at $11.4 billion at list prices and represents the largest-ever Boeing order from a European airline".[17] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 02:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

You say you want third party reliable sources, here you have one explaining exactly what I've been trying to explain you: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-airbuss-late-push-sees-off-boeing-again-351934/ [18] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 02:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

That looks like a pretty good source. I'd suggest that you link to that source on the article's talk page, and request discussion about what info from this new source should be incorporated into the article. I also think now this has become a content related issue, and can best be continued on the article's talk page. Perhaps a close is in order? Quinn SUNSHINE 03:34, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The order values calculated by Alainmoscoso are very different from the actual revenue reported by Airbus and BCA (and which is also reported by secondary sources). Attempts to discuss on the talkpage yielded no fruit but there has been a discussion on my talkpage... cut a long story short, customers don't actually pay "list price", so presenting calculations based on list prices would greatly mislead readers. Alainmoscoso calculates, using these fictitious "list prices", that Boeing took $133 Bn of orders last year. Reliable sources show that Boeing's actual revenue was $36Bn last year. Our article should reflect reality; it should say $36Bn. bobrayner (talk) 10:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
bobrayner you are still talking about oranges when I'm talking about apples. The $36Bn reflects the deliveries of 477 airplanes at their arranged prices between Boeing and every client they have. How much did Boeing charged them individually? We don't know and I'm not mentioning it whatsoever in this article. Obviously you either have not read all the information I already gave or you don't understand it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 12:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The actual values of individual orders are rarely announced. That is not a license to fill in gaps with made-up values for sales of each product. One thing we can be confident of is A and B's revenue; this is widely and accurately reported, and it contradicts the numbers that you have calculated. Can't we take this to the article talkpage? Please? bobrayner (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

If you talk about "made-up values" or "fictitious prices", etc., why do you still have articles like [9/11 conspiracy theories]? that's a made-up theory for most people but still you can read it and you know what you are reading because the title clearly states what it is. It is basically that same in the information I'm providing. I'm not misleading the public in any way because I'm stating very clearly what that information is about. bobrayner is exhausting dealing with you because you believe you have the absolute truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alainmoscoso (talkcontribs) 14:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

That article presents conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories. We have articles on all kinds of hoaxes, conspiracies, and lies - as long as they're well-sourced and presented neutrally, it's fine. The content you've been adding takes a fictitious "list price" at face value. At no point does the article actually admit this problem (and there's no room to do so in a simple table). Readers will actually believe that Boeing is selling $133Bn of airliners each year but, in reality (and in reliable sources) it sells $36Bn of airliners per year. Telling readers something which isn't true is a Bad Thing. bobrayner (talk) 15:06, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Websites like www.flightglobal.com shows similar information I posted in the article as well as Boeing and Airbus own websites. Are you calling them misleading sources? One thing are orders and a different thing are deliveries. Revenue comes when deliveries are completed and again, I'm not talking anything about deliveries and/or revenue and you keep bringing that up. If you read the article I put of flightglobal.com you can read at the end of the table: "Notes: * Airbus and Boeing 2010 values have been estimated by Flightglobal using average list prices to enable like-for-like comparisons. Airbus values its 2010 net orders at over $74 billion and backlog at $480 billion. Airbus and Boeing 2009 values use the same methodology. Data includes A319CJ and Boeing BBJ." Is this a misleading, unsubstantiated and/or made-up information?Alainmoscoso (talk) 15:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, if each vendor writes its own "list prices" but doesn't actually sell planes at that price, it allows us to make totally fair like-for-like comparisons and calculations. Readers will see the $133Bn in a table and just know that, err, BCA doesn't actually sell $133Bn of airliners each year. Can't we handle this on the article's talkpage? Please? bobrayner (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe we won't find a common ground. Could I create a new article? that way you tell the truth and I put "made-up" information for the people who likes this kind of topics? Alainmoscoso (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

No, you can't. And this is not something for AN/I - this is a content dispute, and thus it needs to be discussed at the dispute resolution noticeboard. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
What about an "Analysis of orders, deliveries and backlog" then?68.100.216.166 (talk) 22:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Sounds to me like something that would attract WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH... - The Bushranger One ping only 23:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

RPP backlog[edit]

There's a big backlog at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Some requests have been sitting there for over a day. Zagalejo^^^ 07:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I just made my eyes (and fingers) bleed going through about 40 overdue AFD's...I think I'll pass on the RFPP's (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Review of my closure of Talk:Syrian uprising (2011–present)#Requested move to Syrian Civil War title[edit]

Per this edit it would appear that, unsurprisingly, my closure of this move request is controversial so I'm asking it to be reviewed here. I'm aware of WP:MRV but don't think that process is mature enough yet to handle this. I will also admit to my revert of the new RM being right on the edge of involved but felt it important that my closure be properly reviewed here rather than have another WP:POINTy RM which may have quickly developed. Dpmuk (talk) 08:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I strongly believe that in this case the administrator acted the way he did simply because he opposed personally the move and not because it was Wikipedia rules. Because there was a very big consensus (more than 70% of editors) agreeing on the move, he had to arbitrairily discount a lot of votes and opinions, under the false pretext of them not being "state of art" explanation of their opinion, voluntary ignoring the fact that at one point in a discussion with dozen of participants, it would just be repeting the same arguments than everyone else.

This decision of closing the request by "no consensus" while the consensus was so heavy seems borderline like an "I have all power and I will do how it please me" attitude, with no respect for the editors of Wikipedia.--Maldonado91 (talk) 09:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  • Reads like no consensus could easily have been the way to read it, based on policies, and the fact that this is not a vote. 70% won't get to the admin bits, and 70% doesn't get an article title changed. I can also see why some passionate individuals would believe 70% would pass - but 30% of the people did not agree - that's a pretty high number (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:37, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Is consensus unanimity now? Even "Dpmuk" had to randomly cancel people opinions in order to defend its view of non consensus. If 30% gets a minority block now, there it is the definitive end of moving pages that have a big number of editors.--Maldonado91 (talk) 09:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

One single well-stated, policy-based argument can override a dozen arguments of "yes, let's change it". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

As I see, admins protect and support other admins even against Wikipedia rules. Not surprising.--Maldonado91 (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Try to see the forest instead of just trees. The article is reachable and editable using both variations of the name. At some point in the near future, it may make more sense to change the name. Right now, the overwhelming POLICY-BASED consensus was not to. I admire your ability to count !votes, but you're in no position to determine policy-based consensus at this time. As you have already been notified, your attempted re-creation of a move discussion has been closed as pointy and disruptive, and you have been warned against repeating it (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Maldonoado 91 (nice name, btw) is reminded that Wikipedia is not a democracy. As BWilkins points out, one well-thought-out, clearly-explained, policy-based argument trumps a dozen - or even a hundred - WP:JUSTAVOTEs. Consensus does not require unanimity, a supermajority, or even a majority - it requires that an issue be found to be conformant to Wikipedia policy, or to have one heck of a good reason not to conform. Also, "consensus" is not "agreeing with me", and (also as mentioned) attempts to immediately re-start a discussion that didn't end the way you liked are considered disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. - The Bushranger One ping only 15:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Maldonado, although Dpmuk declined to take it to WP:MRV (move review), you have the option of doing so (as does anyone else). It won't become a tried-and-tested process until it's... tried and tested. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

This was a good close, the type of close that can be used as an example of a good close. The majority of views in support of the move are not just outside of naming policy criteria but cut directly against policy based on an apparent politically motivated point of view. A large portion of the participants were not trying to decide what the proper name is for this article under Wikipedia's naming conventions but how to convince Wikipedia to choose a name they want or viscerally felt was more accurate, regardless of what the naming conventions say. The salient policy-based take-away is that the majority of reliable sources outside of Wikipedia do not describe this as a civil war, and of those that have used that term in conjunction, they do so in the content of saying "may become", "on the verge of becoming" "looming on a" civil war and similar phrases showing implicitly that per them, it is not yet a civil war. The nomination, unlike most of the supports, actually focused on what sources say in support of the move—it just turned out to be untrue. If the support had focused on that relevant matter, showing it was the case that most recent reliable sources call it a civil war, we would have some substance to discuss here. Instead most of the supports are based on trying to define whether the current situation in Syria meets some definition of civil war (irrelevant original research; we follow reliable sources) or pointed to single instances of sources using the term without addressing the fact that most were not using the term. There was nothing "arbitrary" about discounting such !votes.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, excellent close for appropriate reasons. We can all see where this nightmare is going, but so can the rulers in Syria; they may chose not to go there. User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
+1. Policy and reliable sources beats counting !votes based on opinion and original research. Rd232 talk 18:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The decision to go back to Syrian uprising (2011–present) is well-explained and totally justifiable and I applaud Dpmuk for his methodology and decision. Titles are not a popularity contest. 70% for, 30% against, doesn't mean we change as 70% wants. The final and definitive say is to reliable outside sources who know better than the 40-50 individuals who come and comment subjectively on a page, many for ideological reasons, some just disgusted by the amount of bloodshed or disdain for a dictator like Assad. Even a 90% vote for a move doesn't satisfy me if outside reliable objective media sources overwhelmingly use a certain terminology to the unliking of the 90% voters. A certain UN official also used the term "civil war" and this became a huge basis for support to rename the page. A UN official is not the UN and its members. It is just an official. Another UN official may retract the other UN official's comments. We should rely on reports by AP, UPI, Reuters, New York Times etc, not a declarartion for day-to-day consumption. This talk page should lead to a solid rule (precedence) in which votes do not win against factual and reliable international reporting. werldwayd (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Another very grave matter that I want to put your attention to is that a long discussion was initiated. Yet one individual, a certain colleague Doncsecz bypassed all discussions and without having reached a closing of arguments by an independent and high-ranking administrator, went on to unilaterally change the title into Syrian Civil War without waiting for a decision. He just quoted a UN official that said in one of his declarations that this was a civil war, and title was changed. This infuriated colleague Tradedia who voiced his opposition and informed me of the situation and I had to intervene further, which made the task of Knowledgekid87 to establish some peace. I also do not appreciate the excessive and undue intervention of an editor like I7laseral who seemingly intervened at every comment throughout the talk with his wry method of putting down opposition just to create undue confusion based on some ideological concerns of his of seeing his way of dubbing it a "civil war". Every intervention by I7laseral was followed by more pro votes for him because of the huge amount of pro vote sentiments he aroused by his repetitive comments that show no will whatsoever of reconciliation except to have it his own way and nothing else. For the previous full year, almost all edits of this colleague have been on Syrian-uprisiong related issues and nothing else. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/I7laseral&offset=&limit=500&target=I7laseral This just proves he is here with a clear agenda, so all his comments are very biased and his edits should be more closely scrutinized everywhere regarding Syrian Uprising related articles. This sort of tactics on a talk page by very principled and ideological editors does tilt voting on talk pages and is very counter-productive and should be noted for future instances. I am requesting that opinions are not repeated continuously to create a certain change in sentiments as I7laseral has done and colleagues like Doncsecz should be severely restrained, cautioned and if need be suspended for changing titles prior to closing of discussions. His move created so much discomfort and lack of etiquette towards all of us still discussing on the talk page you cannot imagine. I can't emphasize further need to stop effecting changes unilaterally. Let us avoid such behavior in the future. werldwayd (talk) 21:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Nangparbat[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

user:109.145.226.227 Please block. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Already done. Cheers. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copyright infringement[edit]

"The thing was simplicity itself, when it was once explained" - Dr. John Watson - The Bushranger One ping only 22:29, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved: Copyright status clarified, and image tagged to prevent further confusion. — Coren (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

For a few days I've been having some trouble with User:Alssa1 regarding the article about Brazilian dictator Getúlio Vargas. He has been adding over and over pictures which aren't in public domain. I warned him about it (see the article log here) but he has ignored me (see my message to him on his talk page). Since I've done pretty much all I could do about this I came here asking for someone to deal with him. --Lecen (talk) 11:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

All the images you seem to have an issue over are on Commons and most of them appear to be appropriately licenced (some e.g. File:Propaganda do Estado Novo (Brasil).jpg do look dodgy as they claim pd-self for old photos) so all Alssa1 is doing is linking to them. If you think the licences are incorrect then you should take that up on Commons not here. NtheP (talk) 12:16, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
They are ok to be used in Portuguese Wiki, not here. The license given to File:Getulio Vargas (1930).jpg is the Brazilian law 9,610 of 19 February 1998. Obviously, Brazilian laws have no strength inside U.S. or Great Britain. The link given as source ("Galeria de presidents") is dead. --Lecen (talk) 12:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
File:Getulio Vargas (1930).jpg is used on 6 wikis including this one. On all of those the image needs to be public domain in both Brazil and the US (copyright status in the UK is irrelevant) as WP servers are in the US. If you think the image is incorrectly or inadequately licenced then the forum to discuss that is the wiki where the image is hosted not the wikis where is it being used. In this case that is Commons. NtheP (talk) 12:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not talking about Commons, about French, German or Spanish Wikipedia. I'm talking about the English Wikipedia. The article about Getúlio Vargas in this Wikipedia can not have non-free pictures as it's considered copyright infringement. If you're not going to tell that user to stop adding them, then you should let another editor who can be of some actual help here do something. --Lecen (talk) 13:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
As far as I understand, Commons has a pretty restrictive image policy: they won't take any images that aren't free. So, if the image hasn't been deleted from Commons, it stands to reason that it's free to be used on en.wikipedia. —C.Fred (talk) 13:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't think we should assume that an image on Commons is necessarily free. I nominate images for deletion on Commons frequently, and, generally, they are deleted. The wonderful thing about Commons is the deletion process is intuitive, steamlined, and responsive (although they occasionally suffer from backlogs and under"staffing".--Bbb23 (talk) 14:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I guess the point I was getting at is, if there's a concern about the image, nominate it for deletion at Commons and let their processes handle it. If it passes the test there, we can use it here. —C.Fred (talk) 14:12, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Is it so hard to understand that a photo taken in 1940 is not free in the U.S. since the photographer certainly did not die more than 70 years ago? The license tags given are meant to be used in Portuguese wiki, where Brazilian law may be applied, but not in English Wikipedia. --