Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive798

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User:Vtatultiwari move mess needs fixing[edit]

Issue resolved. User pages restored to proper format by User:Scott Martin -- Alexf(talk) 18:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Vtatultiwari has been making a mess of moving his user page to other namespaces. So much so that it got me conused and now we have two user pages, one in user space and one as: Wikipedia:User:Vtatultiwari. Granted, I believe it was done in good faith, just as a misguided user. Could use some help in cleaning it up as when I tried to undo some of his moves I may have broken it somewhat. I am not used to moves and definitely not to the Wikipedia project space where this does not belong. Anybody can take a look? Thanks. -- Alexf(talk) 11:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

 Done. — Scott talk 13:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Alexf(talk) 14:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Problem with Admin Cuchullain and Magic Hat Article[edit]

Case belongs in WP:DR. Not a pressing case for administrator's attention. -- Alexf(talk) 18:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It appears that the admin involved in this case, Cúchullain, will not allow the wording to change on the Magic_Hat_Brewing_Company article. The references clearly state that the Brewery is Costa Rican. Yet any attempt to allude to the Brewery initially as a Costa Rican one is immediately removed. While the article does state eventually that the Brewery is owned by a Costa Rican company it initially appears to be an american brand. This is strangely dishonest at first glance. I'd like another admin to take a look into this.... The Edits in question follow::

not the right way to list diffs
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • cur | prev) 18:00, 22 May 2013‎ Cuchullain (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,103 bytes) (-64)‎ . . (Not an improvement. The current version already makes it clear the brewery is owned by Florida Ice & Farm) (undo)
  • (cur | prev) 17:22, 22 May 2013‎ Lbparker40 (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (5,167 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Grammar and Punctuation Lbparker40 (talk) 18:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)) (undo)
  • (cur | prev) 17:11, 22 May 2013‎ Lbparker40 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,167 bytes) (+64)‎ . . (Corrected article for misleading wording... The brand and the brewery are owned by) (undo)
  • (cur | prev) 15:04, 22 May 2013‎ Cuchullain (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,103 bytes) (+1,179)‎ . . (Some rewriting per talk) (undo)
  • (cur | prev) 14:38, 22 May 2013‎ Cuchullain (talk | contribs)‎ . . (3,924 bytes) (-209)‎ . . (rv) (undo)
  • (cur | prev) 01:46, 22 May 2013‎ Cheddarpants (talk | contribs)‎ . . (4,133 bytes) (+209)‎ . . (Updated page to reflect current corporate

Lbparker40 (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  • You are required to notify someone when you report them here. I've done it for you. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 18:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you're in the wrong place. Try WP:DR. (Though, at a cursory glance, it does seem to me that "American brewery" is correct. Might be owned by a Costa Rican company but the brewery is in Vermont.) --regentspark (comment) 18:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Lbparker40, ANI is for problems that need an admin to get involved in, not for content disputes. The link above, WP:DR is for content disputes. It doesn't matter that he is an admin, this is about the article, not about administration. It looks like you are talking with him on his talk page, which is a good place to discuss the difference of opinion, but not at ANI. I suggest closing and let the regular dispute resolution process take place. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 18:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.[edit]

School block applied. De728631 (talk) 13:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. (talk+ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · checkuser (log))

Looking at this users history and block log, is there any reason we shouldn't just block this IP for a year? Poking around the contribs, I found nothing of redeeming value. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 17:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The IP traces back to - if disruption continues, I would recommend an extended {{schoolblock}}, given the edit history and block logs. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 18:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I looked at only the edits for 2013. Because I found a couple that weren't blatant vandalism, I blocked the IP for six months instead of a year. I don't see why we need to wait.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sock creating doppleganger? acct and trolling admin[edit]

Non-admin closure: Socks put into their draw by several admins. Closing to prevent further disruption. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See [1], would someone like to step in and block some IPs and this acct? dont think the user is online at the present. Heiro 20:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The account is blocked. Not sure about blocking the IPs, probably too big a range. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey Heiro, How you doing?? and Oh Hi zzuzz. Need any assistance in blocking me? Heiir0 (talk) 20:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment Now they have started socking as Heiir0 (blocked by zzuuzz). Someone should probably open a SPI. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 20:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
And another one (User:Zuuzzz) blocked. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 20:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
These are all User:Mailersonly. He's only about the 400th person to get a thrill from discovering that he can make sockpuppets. NawlinWiki (talk) 20:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Can we get a checkuser to shut this down at the source? --Jayron32 23:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I personally believe this guy is the 100003020240th guy to get kicks from socking. 1st place goes to BambiFan101. (talk) 04:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Gounc123 has been warned. Continued creation of fansites or WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior will lead to the editor being blocked. Toddst1 (talk) 15:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gounc123 has made several unsourced edits to various wikipedia pages and incorporated lots of original research into what he contributes. I've deleted the content several times and he just continues to replace it claiming it is related - which it is, but there is no sourcing for it. I'm not the only editor to have removed some of his edits due to the sourcing issues and original research: 1, 2, and 3. I've posted on his talk page several times about his edits and that I want to talk about the edits in question (1 and 2). However, he just deletes my posts, along with the other editors who have posted on his talk page, and refuses to talk and maybe come to a compromise. He posted on my talk page (here) and he uses language that is offensive and directed towards me as an insult. He has also posted on the talk page of another article where he is clearly mocking another editor or insulting (here). He also posted on that same editors page here and seemed to lash out again.

Most recently I've removed a lot of information from the 2013 North Carolina Tar Heels football team page where I found the material in question to be unsourced and largely original research, and there is still some material I left up on the page (mainly the position chart since he says he based the depth chart off of previous seasons and the spring game roster). In my edits to the page I explain why I delete the information - or atleast I believe I have. At first I let it go by since he was new to the site and everything, but his constant adding of unsourced and original research has gotten out of hand in my opinion. His conduct has also been stretching the boundaries. Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 21:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment from goUNC123: I am energetically going to "discuss" this issue listed above (this comment from 5/22/13) as one editor who consistently goes around deleting information with no reason and offering to reasonable explanation is launching a full-out campaign to get me to stop contributing to Wikipedia. I have no problem when "editors" make well-informed edits/deletes that serve to add to the quality of the page, but I do think that it is a large problem for all of Wikipedia, not just me, when people just go around deleting so that they can feel some personal worth deleting content from a bedroom in their parent's house.
This is an interesting campaign from this editor that has to be under 15 years old. For one, it illustrates the vagary of the editor landscape on Wikipedia. Some editors will propose deleting an entire section by putting it on the talk page – a form of a compromise. Other editors will lash out at deleted entries that don't have a sufficient explanation. I think this dynamic can add value in some cases, but when the editor is simply deleting to feel some form of power – THAT is a problem for Wikipedia as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gounc123 (talkcontribs)
There is definitely a protracted problem with WP:OWN and WP:NPA here. The only time this editor has ever used an article talk page is Talk:2013 NCAA Division I Men's Lacrosse Championship which amounts to a personal attack on Giants27 (talk · contribs).
The ad-hominem attack on Disc Wheel above based on his/her age is a great example of the problem.
This rant on his talk page, tells me that this user has no intent to contribute constructively and interact with other users. Toddst1 (talk) 14:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
After his/her last comment, I don't think there is much else for me to say. Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Just wondering: why did you say "Yes I'm the master and commander"? Drmies (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
A number of warnings have been left for Gounc123 (talk · contribs) on his/her talk page at this point and this discussion that s/he is aware of is unambiguous. Continued WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior or creation of fansites should result in a block. Toddst1 (talk) 15:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP reverting all edits by User:Trivialist[edit]

A user with a dynamic IP seems to be reverting all of User:Trivialist's edits. A couple of IP addresses have been blocked, but I fear that the only way to stop this may be a range block. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

--Rob Sinden (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
All four IPs blocked for 1 week each, though I agree this probably needs something stronger. GiantSnowman 15:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

A couple more:

--Rob Sinden (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I blocked these two. -- Alexf(talk) 16:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Just noting my range block (talk · contribs · block log) -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
These IPs belong to a company called "Private Layer INC". A few minutes Googling this name suggest the possibility that these IPs are associated with an anonymizing proxy. If so (someone more knowledgeable than me would have to confirm), then perhaps this range and other related ranges should be blocked for longer than 12 hours. Deli nk (talk) 16:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I would agree this line of inquiry merits further investigation. -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Also noting that I've blocked (talk · contribs · block log) --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 16:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I also just noticed that the range I blocked just came off a 6-month block, which expired two days ago. So I'll be extending that one to 1 year. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 16:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's one I found: (talk · contribs). All of their edits were reverts/undos of Trivialist's edits. Worth a look ... --McDoobAU93 16:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Organization: Private Layer Inc, Switzerland, net: Thomas.W (talk) 16:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
According to the host, they have dynamic VPN really cheap. These are a common source of COI paid spammers as well. I wouldn't be opposed to a long block of their entire range(s). Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 16:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I've taken out (talk · contribs · block log) until I (or someone else) have had a chance to have a closer look at their ranges. -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I suspect this may be related to my removal of affiliate links from articles about adult websites; I was contacted by an editor asking me to leave the affiliate links undisturbed. I'm not positive, but it seems possible. Trivialist (talk) 20:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Which editor? GiantSnowman 20:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
An anon using IPs; see my blacklist request for, and the anon edits I reverted on Tera Patrick and Rocco Siffredi which added affiliate links. Trivialist (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

More reversions:

Trivialist (talk) 12:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Noting my year-long rangeblock of I see most of the linkspammers are also on anonymisers. It's proxytastic. -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


This is tiresome and unecessary and Apteva has just been sanctioned at AE for similar spurious complaints. This is such a massive time sink and topic bans seem to have no effect on this that I have blocked Apteva for a month to demonstrate that this behaviour must cease. Spartaz Humbug! 17:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dicklyon (talk · contribs)

User was reminded by WP:AE action on 13 May 2013 of "avoiding gratuitous comments on contributor in discussions related to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, and that failure to do so may result in the imposition of standard discretionary sanctions." and the following is about as gratuitous as it gets:[2]

So why are we having an RFC again here? To test the ban boundaries, to see if advocating deleting reference to the MOS is OK as long as the MOS is not mentioned in the process? In a desperate attempt to find an editor who will jump in and advance his losing case? Or what?

While I have been a constant target of this editor, I am not the only editor they have chosen apparently randomly to treat in this manner. Instead of following advice to avoid the word you in discussions they have just made it into a joke.[3] The two words that trouble me the most in that post are the words "last summer" as that was posted in May 2013, and my first interaction with Dicklyon on the issue was October 2012, after summer had ended. This editor is one of many "crusty troublesome editors" that Wikipedia has picked up over the last dozen years, set in their ornery ways, unwilling to listen to suggested better ways of participation. I will not mention their latest tag team partner as that editor indicated they did not want to get dragged into ANI, but Dicklyon's behavior spreads like a cancer to new editors, creating and maintaining a toxic atmosphere that makes editing very difficult. There is an ongoing RFC to determine how to enforce civility, but in this case, the answer is clear, Dicklyon was reminded in no uncertain terms to avoid gratuitous remarks and has continued as though nothing was said. It can also be pointed out that the reply to the warning also contained a gratuitous remark about an "unfortunate disruptive mess", still maintaining the charade that I was the one who had created the "mess" when the facts are that all I do is edit. I fix messes, I do not create them. We avoid using the word "you" for the simple reason that it diverts discussion away from the topic and onto the participant. There are two methods of group decision making, consensus and parliamentary. Consensus is about 400 years old, and parliamentary about 200 years old. Neither allow directing comments to or about participants, both for the same reason. It does not work. From Roberts Rules of Order (summarized), "All remarks must be directed to the Chair. Remarks must be courteous in language and deportment - avoid all personalities, never allude to others by name or to motives!"[4] Within the Quakers, the first to adopt consensus decision making, there is an appointed group called Ministry and Council, whose members are the only ones permitted to "offer guidance to those whose messages seem inappropriate to a meeting for worship". All members, though, are expected to not need any such guidance. "Those who rise to speak in the meeting for business should distinguish carefully between remarks which bear directly and helpfully upon the business and those which are tangential or distracting and should probably be left unspoken."[5] In a discussion at WP:VPP, I counted the word you used over 120 times. We are not banning the use of the word you, but we are suggesting that it is better to avoid the use of the word. And FYI, using an editors (user)name is 1000 times worse than the word you. Apteva (talk) 08:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • The background includes the January 2013 topic ban of Apteva followed later by this clarification by Seraphimblade, the admin who closed the topic ban discussion. (There is currently an AE appeal which is not going Apteva's way although not yet closed.) Apteva has continued the same battle, which initially focussed on dashes, into the larger question of the relationship of the MOS to article titles. As Seraphimblade noted back in January, this is a violation of the original topic ban, even if Apteva is not explicitly discussing dashes anymore, it's the same battle and Apteva apparently is going to continue to test the boundaries of the ban. Apteva has previously been blocked for two weeks for this behaviour since the topic ban. Despite Apteva's productive edits to articles when not engaging in battling, I'm sorry to say I suggest a long block for Apteva. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 11:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Long or not, some further sanction or block to let Apteva know that we are serious about seeing him drop this campaign seems to be in order. He does not get that his sequence of deletion-fight, AE, RFC, ANI, etc. is exactly the kind of disruptive ask-the-other-parent pattern that wore through the community's patience months ago. I believe I have been civil in my reactions, though I have not bought into his model that I'm not allowed to comment on his campaign when he opens these disruptive discussions. Others such as AgnosticAphid have done so, too; Apteva's removal of civil on-point talk in WT to advance his case is more the problem, as here and here. Dicklyon (talk) 14:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm, civility issues also play a role in a court, so you can also consider the following solution. Editors who are not capable of communicating in a civil way could be assigned a "lawyer" who will do the communicating for them. In practice this will mean a ban or topic ban but with the provision that the editor can edit indirectly via his/her representative editor. They then commnicate off Wiki, via email and the editor representing the editor with civilty problems uses a special account (in this case it could e.g. be "Dicklyon's representative"). Count Iblis (talk) 12:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Without wanting to come across as dismissing a thoughtful suggestion, Count Iblis, I'm going to suggest that if editors are having problems with Dicklyon's interaction style that they bring it back to AE or start an RFC/U. I also would strongly suggest that it not be Apteva that initiate it. Apteva may not believe that their attempts to get Dicklyon sanctioned in multiple venues ([6] [7]) is part of battlegound behaviour, but some thought must also be given to how it appears to other editors. (It was Dicklyon who initiated Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Apteva which received broad support that Apteva's style was a problem.) Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 13:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think Apteva is desperate to drive other editors away from the discussion. Out of context the text looks bad, but it is not even the full post. This is the diff and the inserted piece was taken out of context to purposely to try and get Dicklyon sanctioned here at ANI. The matter as discussed in the posts shows a concerted effort by Apteva to abuse the process, and given the history is likely a bad-faith attempt to punish Dicklyon. Seems like a case of WP:BOOMERANG is in order because Apteva should know better to remove or take others comments out of context to advance an agenda. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

And the above is an example of the sort of behavior that is intolerable. "desparate", "drive others away"? No, an RFC is to bring in editors. I am not the subject of this thread and it is inappropriate to try to make it that. Pretend I did not sign the opening statement and decide the case solely on its merits, without regard to who brought it up. As to out of context, there is no "context" that makes discussing another editor appropriate on a guideline appropriate. If multiple editors are getting out of hand a simple "stick to the subject" comment is directed not to those editors, but to everyone. Apteva (talk) 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
If you bring accusations against someone to ANI, your own actions will be under review as well, as often the case, "it takes two to tango". --MASEM (t) 14:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Interesting that Apteva objects here to being accused of trying to "drive editors away", when he routinely uses that very same argument against other editors on his talk page "Is it your idea that you can chase me away...". Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • What relief is sought here? Apteva states that Dicklyon was reminded on May 13, but the Smokey the Bear "you"/"last summer" incident was May 7.[8] Glrx (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
    The relief sought is sanction for making gratuitous remarks. While it is true that I have given up all hope of reforming Dicklyon's reform, if anyone else would like to initiate an RFC/U, this can be closed. I will likely not even participate. It is the results that I am looking for, no calling me by gendered pronouns, no calling me you, no talking about me in a discussion about something else. The RFC/U against me was initiated because I pointed out to Dicklyon that there was nothing wrong with my conduct, and that if they thought there was they could start an RFC/U, which was rhetorical, and obviously had zero effect, because no I do not and did not think there is or was anything wrong with any of my conduct on Wikipedia. But as to cleaning up the you's all over the place, that is something that can be addressed in the civility RFC, but please, sanction Dicklyon or open an RFC, as the current conduct of this editor is completely inappropriate to the functioning of Wikipedia. Bringing it back to AE is out of the question. AE clearly stipulated that if the conduct continued that "may result in the imposition of standard discretionary sanctions". "May be ignored" is not the flip side of that word "may", as that simply serves to encourage, and as noted, spreads to other editors. An RFC/U, though, will be Dicklyon's third. Judging from the second one, at least I have not been called a worst name anyone can think of. Basically, instead of topic banning everyone from everything we just need to enforce civility, and delete on sight all offensive posts, preceded by a note on their user talkpage. Apteva (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I believe it was a mistake for the AE case Apteva filed against Dicklyon previously to not result in a straightforward topic ban from MOS discussions for Apteva, barring those needed to explain edits made to articlespace. This complaint is frivolous and exemplifies battleground behavior regarding the MOS. I would encourage any reviewing admin to consider invoking the WP:ARBATC discretionary sanctions and imposing the aforementioned topic ban.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 16:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mrt3366 at Narendra Modi[edit]

Mrt3366 has recently begun contributing at Narendra Modi. Are this edit summary & comment this edit summary and a lot of the stuff here really necessary? I did try to deal with it but was brushed off. Although there has been some heated debate in recent weeks, we have generally managed to keep a lid on things until the last few hours. - Sitush (talk) 08:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

  • And can someone else notify Mrt3366, please? I am persona non grata on their talk page. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure how you know that I shrugged something off. What I want is for some uninvolved people to take a look at what seems to berather pugnacious editing by you on that article and its talk page. As I said, things were actually being discussed quite reasonably (the specific section about POV aside) until your arrival. The temperature has suddenly risen and given that this is (i) about a controversial politician, (ii) a BLP, and (iii) potentially one of those awkward Hindu vs Muslim situations that often spiral out of control, it seems sensible to see if something needs doing sooner rather than later. I can't even discuss it with you on your talk page and the article talk page is really not the right place to discuss behavioural things. I'm no prude but shouting out "fucking" in an edit summary that mentions Hindus and Muslims is something that sorta catches the eye, seems unnecessary and perhaps should be revdel'd even if the actual content of your edit is considered to be reasonable & thus reinstated. - Sitush (talk) 09:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment MrT is a sometimes passionate editor and gets a little carried away, he does on the other hand stick to NPOV quite well. And saying "fucking" is not a violation of any policy I know given Wikipedia is not censored. I would ask MrT to allow you to post to his talk page so that the two of you can discuss the issue there and should that fail, return here. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Could you give me an example of him sticking to NPOV quite well? two weeks ago he ws editwarring to insert a claim that Kashmiri Pandits are the purest members of the Aryan race sourced to a 200 year old book. Today he is removing a POV tag from an article that glorifies a hindutva politician during an ongoing discussion of neutrality concerns. I dont think he even knows what WP:NPOV says.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I would not ask MrT to allow Sitush on their talk page because I can understand why someone may not want Sitush on their talk page. Perhaps they could discuss things on Sitush's talk page or some other talk page, if it needs discussion at all ...OrangesRyellow (talk) 10:40, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I have to agree with Sitush on this. While the f-word is not by itself a problem, this sort of edit summary indicates that Mrt is approaching the article in a less than salubrious way. Regardless, I think a warning and closing this thread is the best action here. --regentspark (comment) 10:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • That's a fucking good idea. Basket Feudalist 10:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Warning MrT for what and what do you want to warn him? Closing the thread is a better idea though.-sarvajna (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Warning him that India/Pakistan topics are covered by discretionary sanctions imposed by Arbcom and that he could be blocked if he continues exhibiting biased editing and intemperate language in edit summaries or elsewhere. --regentspark (comment) 11:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Has he shown biased editing? I am sure you have seen other issues on the page of Modi here at ANI, you did not call that bias editing, coming to the edit summary I am sure if you dig out you might find not so good edit summaries on the page of Modi. You can close this ANI though, if you want we can ask MrT to tone down his edit summary if it was that offending.-sarvajna (talk) 11:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
It is natural for a Pakistani POV guy to fail to see anti Modi bias even if it exists, but see pro Modi bias/problems even where there is usually no cause for concern.OrangesRyellow (talk) 12:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure who is this Pakistani POV guy you are referring to, everyone commented here commented are pretty reasonable and if you are referring to RP then I strongly disagree. Can an admin close this thread. I don't think it is going anywhere, lest it turns into a slugfest.-sarvajna (talk) 12:40, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Why should a warning be given to Mr.T? A warning should be given only if his introduction of any lines was found to be a POV. Unless that has been established by consensus, how is his editing being considered biased? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:32, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment The comments, edit summaries, and edits of MrT show that he just wants to display what wrong the "Muslims" did. This may be a violation and breach of Wikipedia policies. The editors should take in account WP:POV. That's all. Faizan 11:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
What POV in it? Those are facts. Do you wanna say those numbers are wrong? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
It's not about facts, whatever they might be. Rather, this edit summary Explaining the insanely downplayed Godhra Train Massacre where Hindu PILGRIMS including Children and Women on their way to a Holy Hindu site were FUCKING BURNT TO DEATH by a radical Islamic mob of 2000 Muslims. is extremely problematic. More of this sort of thing and I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be blocked. Again, I suggest that we warn Mrt that this is not acceptable and move on. --regentspark (comment) 12:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok read this Explaining the insanely downplayed Godhra Train Massacre where Hindu PILGRIMS including Children and Women on their way to a Holy Hindu site were burnt to death by a radical Islamic mob of 2000 Muslims., if you remove the f-word then I don't see any issues at all.I don't see any reason why he should be warned, like I said before this is not a first dispute that is resulting in an ANI and somehow you think that this was wrong.Close it if you want.-sarvajna (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I met Mrt3366 a few weeks ago when he was editwarring against multiple editors to insert a claim that "Kashmiri pandits are the purest members of the Aryan race" a standard Hindutva propaganda claim which he sourced to a 200 year old book. When I reached out politely at his talkpage to let him know that he was about to breach 3rr this was the reply[9]. Now he is continuing the same pov pushing at Narendra Modi where he is joined by a few other likeminded editors trying to keep critical information out of the article about the Hindu National politician. I think a round of topic bans are in order, someone clearly are having a hard time distinguishing between their own POV and Neutrality. Mrt3366 also clearly has a hard time accepting critical messages on his talkpage instead flying off the handle[10], but this is a kind of communication that is vital for wikipedia. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
If there is someone who is "having a hard time distinguishing between their own POV and Neutrality" then it must be you for sure. Your edits to the page/talk page are clear testimony of that. Also if you know even a bit about Hindutva thing then you will know that they do not support the theory of Aryan race, you still need to do some research in that field I think. -sarvajna (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
As opposed to you I have a long history of editing things that have nothing to do with Hinduism or Indian policy. I dont have a POV on this topic, but I recognize propaganda when I see it. In fact it is only this last month that I came to the topics and discovered their dire state. And your claim about aryanism not being espoused by Hindutva is of course wrong, they exactly propose the theory that there was no Aryan invasion but that the Aryan race and the Indo-European languages originated in the subcontinent. Im a little surprised you wouldnt know this yourself.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
So what, yes I edit articles related to India, that is what interests me, I need not edit other articles to show that I am neutral also coming to the point about aryanism they don't believe in the theory that there were people called Dravidans and the theory that aryans came to India and pushed natives to south India is not something that they accept. So the whole point of considering just Kashmiri Pandits as the purest form of aryans is not some Hindutva thing.One more point, the dispute here is not MrT pushing material against consensus like you were trying to do, the dispute here is whether his language in the edit summary is proper or not -sarvajna (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I was not trying to push any material as you well know, I was trying to tag the article for its obvious lack of neutrality and start a discussion about how to make it conform to NPOV. As for your claims about Aryanism they are contradicted by sources like these:[11][12][13] which describe the racialist element in hindutva thought. The topic here is Mrt editing aggressively in collaboration with a group of povpushers trying to own articles related to hinduism and make them conform to their own viewpoint.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, my concern is Mrt's pugnacity and the way that has almost immediately raised the temperature from warm to uncomfortably hot. We were generally getting along ok together until their arrival. The edit summary is one part of that but not the whole. He has been combative from the outset seemingly because he thinks I am not trying to usefully develop the article and am hiding my POV by committing many small edits etc (at least, that forms part of his rationale in the last of my three links above). - Sitush (talk) 13:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
So was there any discussion started when the disagreement began? To be honest I am still not able to understnd the reason why we are here, Sitush, disagreements happen and people might not have the same style as you do. Taking people to ANI because you did not had your way or because you did not like how they did things might not be the right approach.-sarvajna (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
See my 09:38 above. I am not here because I have not got my "own way". I want uninvolved people to look at this, not you or Maunus or OrangesRyellow (who is pretty much always involved with niggling commentary whenever my name crops up here, rather like another user with a fruit-y name once was). Without input from uninvolveds, we are just going to go round in circles. - Sitush (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough, however you have tried to involve more people [14], [15] .-sarvajna (talk) 15:00, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
And your point is? I went to Boing! before Mrt posted the last-linked item above and with the knowledge that Boing! had just posted a message in another thread here & thus was active. There was no response from Boing prior to Mrt escalating things further and I had good reason to believe that Boing may have gone away. So I came here. I could have come here straight away but I was trying to keep the drama down. If Mrt had not posted that last comment, I might still have been waiting for Boing now but it seemed obvious to me that he (Mrt) was getting still more worked up. Happy now? - Sitush (talk) 15:18, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • With due respect to everybody, I think nobody likes to apologize or to be warned, when they have done nothing wrong but still I have been accused of exhibiting "pugnacity" and it's time I said something about it. If somebody's emotions are hurt because of the valid edit which elaborated (with a reference) how a mob of 2000 Muslims burnt alive 58 helpless Hindu pilgrims, then I am profoundly amazed. If somebody doesn't like my usage of the word "fucking", then I ask others to close this discussion ASAP; it is not the right venue to discuss user conduct. There are other venues to discuss user-conduct. Having said that, I am sorry that any of this is happening at all. Let's close this damn thing and move the discussions to relevant pages. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 15:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Fucking get on wiv it then Face-wink.svgBasket Feudalist 15:52, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Not looking to get involved here, but I feel the need to point out that user conduct is indeed discussed here (although RFC/U is equally appropriate; it just depends on whether you want sanctions or not) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Pointing out that User:Ratnakar.kulkarni have now removed a pov tag three times from the article (just today) with no other rationale that he doesnt agree that the article is biased. These are the editors who are accusing me of pov pushing, "mischief" and "aggresive editing". Could we get some fucking admin attention here already? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Maunus, you dont get to come and cry here begging for admins. The real problem here is that you simply want the POV tag stayed there on the top of the article. There is absolutely no action from your side to remove it. You have been asked n number of times of what exactly is POVy and what you think should be written instead. But instead of commenting on the content you are being very very fond of this mud throwing at other editors. Its been 24 hours since i have asked you to come up with your version of non-POVy lead. But here you are playing blame game instead. In that vaguely worded RFC you raised you are asking for other editors to come and see if the article is POV. Why will they do that? You think its POVy, you say it why it is. When i said this last time to you, you resorted on personal attacks. Not surprised by that; Chesterton says that people generally quarrel because they cannot argue. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, because it gets anonoying after having spent three weeks descirbing in detail what the pov problems are and how the article doesnt conform to policy that idiots like you keep saying "so say what the pov problem is". It is pretty difficult to talk to people who are simply not willing to listen. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • How odd. How could anyone deny that this edit here is of a promotional kind? "In 1967, he volunteered to serve the people of Gujarat who were affected by the flood"--sourced to the subject's own website. The additional detail on the 2002 massacre appears to be inserted here to rally anti-Muslim sentiment (58 against 2000); the numbers add nothing to the article's subject. And then Ratnaker has the gumption, after all this promotional stuff was added, to remove a perfectly valid POV tag. I think an ArbCom-enforced slap on the wrist for Mr. T and Ratnaker is in order. And Basket Feudalist, if you got nothing useful to say, then just stay out of it. Drmies (talk) 17:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Absolutely the numbers do not add anything, but don't you have any issues with the other numbers given there? that post train burning killed 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus. If you really cared to see the talk page you will see that I have started discussion on those things. Unlike few other editors who just want the POV tag, I am rather trying to resolve the disputes.-sarvajna (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Solving the dispute by editwarring and slandering others....Thatll work....·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Drmies, the edit does appear to be promotional in the sense that it employs the phrase "to serve the people of Gujarat", but there is nothing wrong with using primary sources for something non-controversial that is not unduly self-serving. The text would have been alright had it simply stated the fact that 'he volunteered during the floods' and so on... and it would have been better had the fact been corroborated through a secondary source. The same paragraph that you point you details the fact that among those dead there were 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus. Does that equally seem to prove an anti-Hindu sentiment? I would like to see some unbiased commentary here please from an apparently uninvolved administrator. I would further like to understand your rationale behind the proposal to sanction Ratnakar. Please do elaborate. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 18:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Edit warring, related to the tag. There is a big difference between saying there were 790 victims of faith X and 254 of faith Y, on the one hand, and saying that a mob of 2000 Muslims burned 25 women and 15 children, on the other. It's called rhetoric, and it's pretty obvious what this is supposed to accomplish. Helping flood victims and all is nothing encyclopedically unless rigorously verified to be non-trivial. You can send a $10 check and write it up in your autobiography. It is not easy to judge whether this is unduly self-serving, but it certainly is self-serving, yes. Drmies (talk) 19:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Given that Modi is a high-level politician and a former pracharak (propagandist working for the RSS), who is known to be reluctant to talk about some of his early involvements and to have pulled the plug on attempts to write an official biography, I think it reasonable to assume that anything he says about his background etc on his website is self-serving and any source that relies on it is also thus. Nick and I do not see eye-to-eye regarding this, nor about the use of op-eds to contrive neutrality, but while I might give a little on the latter, I'm sticking to my guns on the former: Modi's self-published biography is not acceptable for anything much other than his date of birth, religious affiliation and nationality. Mrt3366 only needed to read some still-visible threads on the talk page to understand the contentious nature of some of his recent edits: he should have continued to discuss, not forced the issue in such a heavy-handed manner. - Sitush (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Sitush, I am actually amenable to what you have said regarding the particular assertion and using the primary source above and I am happy to discuss content on the talk page. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 20:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, Mrt3366 was involved in a discussion where you pronounced that using the above WP:SPS for an almost-identical statement was ok. From that he may well have been encouraged to make a contribution based on that dodgy source. Like it or not, I think that even many experienced editors (me included) do tend to have a subconscious "they're an admin so I'm alright doing as they say" mentality. On this one, you were way off-base, as I suspect you have been on a few other content pronouncements relating to that article. You know that you are fallible but did Mrt3366? He is responsible for his own action, of course, but it is all a bit of a mess. - Sitush (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Sitush, you are misrepresenting my position again. The other discussion was altogether different where there were secondary sources available to corroborate the primary source. Please review the discussion again. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 21:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • That page is such a mess now that I can't even be bothered trying to work out who said what and when. I'll take your word for it and apologise. - Sitush (talk) 14:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

───────────────────────── This comment is the latest in a long line of combative comments and edits made by Mrt3366 in the last few hours. He's probably exceed 3RR anyway but will someone please give him a break. He needs to calm down. - Sitush (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Editor behaviourial issues[edit]

  • I have recently reported Maunus's less than productive behaviour on this page when he went on a campaign to canvass for support on several Wikiproject pages without due regard to their relevance. Their aggressive mode of editing and commentary is counter-productive to any form of dispute resolution on the article talk page. I think that any form of sanction should equally apply to users who indulge in unnecessarily combative behaviour to bully, intimidate and harass other users. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 19:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
And that would of course include your twinkle reversion of my first edit to the page[16] (a clear violation of WP:VANDAL which should cost you your access to automated editing tools) and your subsequent unmotivated threats on my talkpage[17]. You know that your accusations of canvassing are unfounded (advertsising an RfC on project pages is NOT canvassing), and your accusations of bullying are gooing to boomerang right back on your own ass. So I think you should shut up with that right about now.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Frankly, reverting your edit using Twinkle was a one-off mistake. As a courtesy, I left a message on your talk page asking you to discuss prior to making substantive changes to the lead section (even when cited). The rationale behind the reversion is available in my comments. You also appear to have gotten into a habit of clearing out your talk page each time you have an uncomfortable discussion takes place, mostly cases where other users highlight your less than ideal behaviour. Perhaps you should take time to read what you write and reflect upon that. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 20:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I wonder how many one-off mistakes like that I could find if I perused your editing history. Yes I archive my talkpage regularly - is that a problem? As for my "less than ideal behavior" look at your self in a mirror. I have met few more arrogant admins and admins with less clue about policy. As for your "courteous message", perhaps you could take time to read what you wrote and reflect upon how it looks in the relation to WP:OWN and WP:CHILL. You do not have the right to request from anyone to discuss before they edit, and an edit not having been discussed is not a valid rationale for reverting, not even when not using automated tools. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:54, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Please stop treating Wikipedia like your personal playground. You cannot simply decide to barge in on an article and make substantive changes to the lead section without discussing on the talk page first. Please extend some courtesy to other editors if you expect them to extend the same to you. Or perhaps, given your recent experience on the project where you had to give up your admin tools, you no longer believe in civil discussion? The fact is that you edited the article to make inappropriate inclusions to the lead section and I reverted you and left a message on your talk page (which appears to be that of an SPA) informing you that a reversion had taken place and that you were invited to discuss the matter on the talk page in the spirit of WP:BRD. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 21:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
No? Honestly you call yourself a wikipedian administrator and you think one has to ask permission before adding reliably sourced material to the lead of an article. How the hell did you pass an RfA? And dont talk about courtesy to me: Your first courtesy to me was a threat and a claim of ownership, since then youve graduated to lies and false accusation.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I am going to leave this diff here. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 22:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
/edited for NPA/ ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

A few other one-off mistakes: [18][19][20][21][22] Here is your admission[23] that you know [[User:Kondi] personally. User Kondi who showed up out of nowhere[24] to remove the pov tag that you dont like on the clearly biased BLP article which he had never edited before. Could be a coincidence I guess. But on the other hand perhaps you are not the one to be accusing me of canvassing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Looks like it is you who is clueless about policy after all. Or perhaps in the spate of zealousness you forgot to review the cited diffs properly. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 21:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
They are all reversions of good faith inclusions of cited material with only an automated editsummary.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
To whomsoever it may concern: I would request you to examine the pages and the changes made carefully along with the corresponding talk pages of the users reverted. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 22:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes I made a personal attack which I later removed. If you are so keen that people see it i can repeate it here and save "whomseoever" the trouble to go through my editing history. /edited for NPA/ ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked Maunus for 48 as a result of his repeated personal attacks. -- Y not? 02:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment: To return to the supposed subject of this discussion. MrT, I've spent a little time reviewing his contribs over the past couple of weeks and I think it is obvious that he has problems with NPOV over a whole range of articles that involve Hindu-Muslim conflicts. Uninvolved admins should step in before it gets to be an even bigger problem than it has been so far. (talk) 21:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
You clearly aren't new to Wikipedia. Did you accidently get signed out? (For about an hour or so and still didn't notice!!) §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
No, I just don't edit that much any more, and even when I used to it was back in the time when we mainly used IPs, and I'm old-fashioned. Lazarus the Lazy (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, I tend to avoid it because of the POV-battles that are such a feature nowadays, and drive away editors -- which is why I strongly recommend uninvolved admins take a look at MrT. Lazarus the Lazy (talk) 16:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)Lazarus the Lazy (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Editor (Sitush) behaviourial issues[edit]

Sitush is being a real pain at the Talk:Narendra Modi. He is picking trivial stuff and making huge issues out of it. Once or twice was okay. Its good to have best in the article. But he is nibbling every line and arguing on it with every editor. The article is not in GA/FA review and doesn't need so much of strict reviewing. Few examples.

  • The article previously said "During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, Modi, who was then a teenager, volunteered to serve the soldiers in transit at railway stations." Sitush added a "clarification needed" stating that it was a very vague. We had a huge discussion at Talk:Narendra_Modi#Serving_soldiers_in_1965 on firstly how the term "serve" was sufficiently concise enough for a biography. Then he said it comes from self-published source and wasn't reliable. When presented with multiple third party reliable sources he insisted on what exactly did he serve as. After a whole day of discussion with 3-4 editors finally he was happy to know that Modi served "snacks and tea"; which was the mostly likely guess and didn't need such a huge debate. But whats the result? The line is now finally removed anyways.
  • Next day he questioned one of the quotes of the subject, saying that the quote "makes no sense". (NOTE: He did not say that the quote makes no sense in context but said that the quote itself makes no sense.) Thankfully we had a very small discussion here at Talk:Narendra_Modi#Weird_quote which he hasn't replied to. (I don't think he is happy with the discussion. He has simply forgotten about it because he is busy causing other disturbances. )
  • Next he picked on Mrt3366's (Mr.T) usage of phrase "Godhra Train Massacre". He object and debated on it and wanted it to be "Godhra train burning". When Mr.T presented various third party independent reliable sources that use "massacre" or "carnage", he came up with some silly reason of how google gives different results in different location and that his UK version didn't give much results that used these words. (The incident is the one that happened in India in 2002, 55 years after India got freedom from UK and has no known connection with UK at all.)
  • Then he complained about the Google+ crash incident. He objected on the line "The chat was schedule to start at 20:00 IST, but began 45 minutes late because of the reported crash of Google+ due to the response." because he thinks it is a PR stunt. After giving various references, the line is still anyways removed from the article because he doesn't trust these newspapers like Business Line (part of The Hindu group) and Zee News and others.
  • He then debated on use of two references to cite one and same point when its perfectly okay to use multiple sources for one and the same thing.
  • Long back we had discussed on the line "He is a crowd-puller as a speaker." Sitush had objected on inclusion of this line firstly because he says its just the opinion of that one particular writer (POV) and secondly that every politician is a crowd puller. I presented to him a newspaper report of how one major politician was not able to get enough crowd and it was felt worthy of noting as a news by one newspaper. To comment on his POV doubt, we presented various reports that called Modi crowd-puller. The discussion did not conclude and hence i finally added multiple sources by bundling them together to avoid CITEKILL. He reverted that addition saying that it was ridiculous.
  • He is also seen moving edits of other editors on talk pages [25].
  • When Mr.T posted a huge commented on his reversion of edits on talk page at 08:43, 16 May 2013, he instead submitted this complaint about Mr.T here at 08:56, 16 May 2013.
  • And you would think that he is such a nice boy being so particular about right usage of words. But no! When Mr.T proposed using exact figures of people killed in 2002 violence, he instead reverted him and added a vague sentence of "Many people were killed".
  • He still continues on talk page "wondering who pays the Supreme Court judges!" demeaning India's system as compared with UK's; calling various stuff in the article as gibberish; indirectly calling Modi a male prostitute and various other things.diff

All these edits of Sitush are just to agitate other editors. He knows that it works well. He knows that Mr.T gets short tempered and would violate WP:3RR and then he can be blocked. He also knows that i have for various times abandoned editing such articles where someone is simply playing in a puddle and throwing dirt. That is also true with various other editors and not just me. He is using all these strategies to irritate us all.
I propose that he be topic banned from editing this and other related articles. He may choose any of his buddy-editors to edit the article instead of him; you know if he is really very caring about the readers and Wikipedia and such moral stuff. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

  • I am reluctant to believe that Sitush is making these edits to agitate other editors! The first one "clarification needed"— I also feel expansion was needed there! Which railway stations? Did he volunteer during whole war period or any specific period? Did he work as a member of any volunteering group/religious/political organization? About Godhra Train Massacre>>Godhra train burning, the Wikipedia article is titled Godhra train burning! I have not checked other points you have mentioned! --Tito Dutta (contact) 06:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh of course! We should also mention his working hours, was it raining or scorching heat on those days, how many more people helped him, what he used to wear then, how did he communicate with soldiers, did he knew Hindi or English then, or did he use sign languages to get their orders, what types of teas he used to serve and what in snacks, did he serve the spicy ones or medium one, did he wear gloves before serving and tie his hair properly, VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS!!! §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 07:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Your answer does not require a reply as it teases back itself! --Tito Dutta (contact) 13:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Still a reply below! --Tito Dutta (contact) 13:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "edits to agitate other editors!" - I myself don't believe Sitush is editing this way only to spite other editors.
    Moving on, if you wish to know more about "Godhra Train Massacre>>Godhra train burning" then I urge you to go through the spiral discussions on the talk or we may just use common sense or if you want to know my views click here. That's all. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 06:19, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Post script to that, my comment should not be used to mean that the points Dharmadhyaksha is presenting as the issues, are in anyway false. His conclusions might not be agreeable but the points are verifiable. I would not like to be involved in this any further. Thank you all. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 06:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree with Dharmadhyaksha, initially it was good to clarify his doubts but now he seems to see issue with every word.I do not know the real intention of Sitush behind his nitpicking but I see that lot of editors are agitated and irritated due to to his current behavior, he has very stong opinions about the subject and most of the times think that everything is a PR stunt of the subject or it is somekind of POV that is being added by editors.-sarvajna (talk) 10:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Much of what is said above, and in particular the opening exposition by Dharmadhyaksha, is a misrepresentation of things that I have done or is mind-reading. To take just the first point as an example, the statement related to a war of 1965 between India & Pakistan and it was sourced to Modi's self-published biography. I raised the issue of what "served soldiers at railway stations" meant due to the lack of context, ie: served in what capacity? It was eventually determined that Modi had served tea to them, as opposed to being, say, a shoe-cleaner, batman or a male prostitute. So, the statement became something like "served tea to soldiers". That it was subsequently removed is something that I that I had mooted (it is a minor point and arguably self-serving) but was not my doing and had support from others. The thread that Dharmadyaksha links explains pretty much all of this.

    I'd rather one of the above actually explained what their specific problem is here because at present it looks like an exposition of various content disputes. Or is the claim that I am editing in a tendentious manner, ie: that I am similar in style to Mrt3366, who is repeatedly raising certain issues in new threads and even here, such as whether we refer to something as a "train burning" or a "massacre"? - Sitush (talk) 12:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Exactly! I have not studied all of the points, but see my post above and his immediate reply! Follow this, if keeping Modi's political activities in mind (read the political party as BJP), if I want to to learn did Modi serve for any political or religious volunteering group— RSS, BJP, will it be totally irrelevant, since it could well establish political activities of early days? The second question was— did Modi serve as volunteer during whole war period? From history, Atal Bihari Bajpayee joined Gandhi Ji's Quit India movement as a volunteer but only for few days, not from starting to ending and later was jailed for 23 days.Now, coming to L.K. Advani, though the story is unclear, some people alleged Advani was a member of the team who assassinated Gandhi (ref or search in Google). Whether he was there or not, surely Advani was not the head of team at that time and his activities surely had been minimum. Now, these two examples (actually there are more..) show that some political leaders worked as volunteers in their early days, but those were not very remarkable/ were for brief period. Now read again the question— did Modi serve as volunteer during whole war period or a brief period? Note, the point, he did not even attempt or ask me to clarify the questions I asked and .. (see his reply).. --Tito Dutta (contact) 13:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
What do you really want to say? There information of Modi serving army men is supported by RSs, if you want to learn more you are free to do research. Was he part of some volunteer group? the info is not provided in source. So what is the issue to write that he just served, obviously he was not a soldier.Also I do not know how helpful the whole Advani thing will be but just FYI, Advani is accused to be involved in a plot to kill Jinnah. Sitush, on what basis did you speculate that Modi would have been a male prostitute? Did Indian army used the services of male prostitutes or is Modi well known to be a male prostitute? It would be helpful if you can control your bias. -sarvajna (talk) 14:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Where is the bias in the "serve" issue, sarvajna? I just picked some random examples - he could have been serving ice-cream or playing tennis with them for all the sense that the statement made. Anyway, Is the allegation of bias the crux of this issue? I'm still trying to figure out what I am supposed to be defending myself against here, if anything. - Sitush (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Not in the serve issue, you speculating that Modi would have been a male prostitute is what I am saying. What was the basis for the speculation? because you wanted to be funny? because you think that Indian army use the service of male prostitute? -sarvajna (talk) 14:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Anyone who understands English knows that Sitush did not speculate any such thing. Competency is required. Drmies (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
read this -sarvajna (talk) 15:59, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
You'd do well to point at something specific; I'll do it for you: "as things stand we could as well mean that he served them as a male prostitute as a boot cleaner". If you think that that means that Sitush is speculating that Modi was a male prostitute, there's a serious lack of language competency. Drmies (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
My suspicion is comprehension underlies much of the angst that I seem to be generating, and I suggested an example of this yesterday. Perhaps I need to try to say things more simplistically. - Sitush (talk) 16:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I hope you know there is a slight difference between "simple" and "simplistic"? The "angst" you seem to be generating has little to do with semantics and phraseology, your diction was at times truculent and provocative. Your way of editing was unilateral, autocratic, subsequent justifications for removing seemingly relevant edits (as well as my talk page comments) were whimsical and occasionally peremptory. You're again implicitly refusing to even admit that those who are speaking against your general behavior in this article, have any basis to do so. It seems as though you're trying to blame it on the incompetence of every single one of your detractors while precluding the possibility of your obstinacy over fairly minuscule things. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 11:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I have the same impression as Dharmadhyaksha. I have been following the article and its talk page for some time. It is obvious that Sitush is constantly doing and saying things which would constitute blatant baiting (WP:BAIT}. He appears to be baiting MrT3366 in particular (who does not seem to understand how ridiculously common and succesful baiting is on WP, or what baiting is). I would urge that suitable action be taken to prevent Sitush from baiting others.OrangesRyellow (talk) 14:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Hang on a minute, Dharmadhyaksha is unclear about what exactly it is I am being charged with, sarvajna seems to be suggesting bias as being the issue and you are suggesting baiting. I seem to be causing an awful lot of different problems for different people, so perhaps it would be best to set up a formal call for a topic ban - D mentions it but has not set up a "yes"/"no" arrangement where people can support or oppose. - Sitush (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I was wrong in writing this all. I did not realize this before. The more chance you give Sitush to speak, the fouler it starts getting. Please close this thread. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 16:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I really detest this (AN/I) venue and would not post in this thread unless a bizarre coincidence. Sitush today astonished me by his appearance on my user_talk without any previous interaction or other plausible pretext, and for the sole purpose of reiterating a nonsense accusation made by a third person (I presume the two are members of some clique). I did not try to determine how many other users experienced such intrusions, of which persons and in which numbers, but I have a feeling that it is something undesirable for Wikipedia. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd remove this is trolling but hey, here we are. For the record, Incnis Mrsi is pissed because they warned a user for "defacing" a user page after an honest mistake and then got even more pissed when I asked them to look carefully next time. Sitush happened to agree with me, hence the "clique" thing. It's on the user's talk page, if anyone is interested, where you'll also find this diff with a sneer against the editor who made the initial mistake, "I am really happy that English Wikipedia has so few people here like you,". Maybe someone should collapse this section. Drmies (talk) 19:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
BTW I have an impression that the user talk:Drmies page is used by the clique to coordinate attacks against disagreeable contributors. One can see how they discussed (and defamed) me there, without even notifying me, although I did not cross their paths except this single message at user talk:
Believe me: I had no previous history of interaction with anyone of them. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: I know I said that I would not like to comment here, and I don't. I empathize fully with Incnis Mrsi, like others, I also didn't like Sitush's insinuation and baiting and everything. Didn't find it helpful at all. I don't believe that Sitush randomly chose to use "male prostitute" as one of the few possibilities. It seemed as though he was looking to instigate his opponent to say something unbecoming. Some flatly reject even the possibility that Sitush's way of inserting inferences, speculations and insinuations like "BJP hit squad might be sent to find him" (in response to merely a vague and inarticulate comment by Dharma), "BJP is affiliated with a known militant organisation" along with the anecdotal claim that BJP is trying to kill him and he is worried for his safety (see Talk:Narendra Modi#Serving soldiers in 1965), might reek of possible bias. Sitush is very good with words and his rationales for edits in this highly controversial article have been, at best, arbitrary and subjective. He has removed my comments altogether without even trying to discuss with me or others in the talk. Even after my repeated attempts to stop him (i.e. i asked him on the edit summaries that "don't DELETE my comment", "Don't delete my comment altogether, I didn't refactor your comment, I added proper date"), even then he bullishly kept on shifting my comments with arbitrary claims thereby mocking me. He went to complain against me to admin Salvio Giuliano (as opposed to other editors or admins who were already involved) instead of discussing on a thread in the talk. I later deemed it necessary to open a thread to discuss this otherwise trivial issue. Then he himself proved that he is not concerned about the problems he cited as excuses to delete or shift my comments (read the linked section). I felt indignant, It didn't help at all. But I do not believe his sole objective is to agitate other editors.
    Two sources (bundled) behind one statement is unacceptable to Sitush. He created a big fuss out of that too. Were it not for Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington I don't know where we would be with this article, the lion's share of credit goes to Nick for monitoring the article. I don't believe Sitush is done editing the article, one day Nick won't be around and then nobody could stop Sitush with all his mockery, chicanery and bullish edits. Read the talk, I attest to the points raised by Dharma, they are true. Nitpicking is fine once or twice, but persistently groping for excuses to maintain a neutrality dispute at all times is very, very pugnacious and not helpful at all. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • (EC) I have a passing interest in the article areas Sitush regularly edits (from a reading perspective only) and I have generally found their interaction in those areas to result in great improvements to the articles. I think most of the issues above are caused by a combination of non-native English speakers completely mis-interpreting Sitush comments (see the above 'serve' discussion), and some, very minor in my opinion, poor choices on the part of Sitush when discussing with editors who do not have the best grasp of the English language. As some people have said above, "competence is required", we also need to accept that certain areas are going to primarily be of interest to people who are not well-versed in all the nuances of the English language. So every reasonable effort should be made to help them. I think Sitush offer to try and communicate more simply would probably eliminate quite a bit of the noise and be in line with that. And perhaps when making a comparison, not take it to the extreme. (Was he a batman or bootcleaner would have sufficed!) Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I beg to differ. You're oversimplifying a very convoluted issue that has to with the general modus operandi of the user in question, by theorizing it would go away if only these non-native English-speakers knew English better. No. It doesn't have much to do with understanding English. Nobody is saying Sitush is a bad contributor all-around, but his contributions when taken as a whole, from legitimate edits to needless caviling at a number of points, doesn't augur well for the progress of the article and its other editors. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 11:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually I was focusing on the only coherant evidence (with diffs) supporting them above. 'Needless caviling'? You would need to provide supporting diffs that show Sitush objections are trivial for that sort of comment to fly. And I just have not seen anything that qualifies. But as an aside I generally find any time someone says 'this is really complicated' what they are actually have is an inability to explain things in a logical and concise manner, or are unable to drill down to what the issue is. And as I said, when I see Sitush has been involved at an article, it usually means it has/or is in the process of improving. If the issue is communication (which it looks like to my eyes) then an attempt to alter/change the method is likely to have an effect. If your problem is that you think Sitush's objections over article content are 'trivial', then you will need to post diffs that show that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Many diffs are provided with proper explaination by Dharmadhyaksha in the beginning of the section.-sarvajna (talk) 12:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, is
and my reaction on it a matter of [my] mis-interpreting Sitush comments [due to my non-native English]? Nobody of Drmies’s brigade (of which Sitush is apparently a member) didn’t provide a single diff showing my alleged “inappropriate claim of vandalism”, and nobody of them apologized for their defamation and harassment, including a fresh accusation in trolling. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
With respect, Drmies is being lenient there. You used the word 'deface' when warning an IP over what amounts to a minor mistake. Deface is not a nice word. It means to intentionally spoil. So vandalism. But thats all explained on your talkpage. When you bring up spurious arguments to support something, expect someone to characterise your editing as such. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Although it is possible that I made a mistake, I prefer to ask at a more neutral venue to ensure that my mistake took place. An overt assumption of my bad faith and baseless accusations in making “inappropriate templated warnings” eroded my confidence to the people from AN/I and user_talk:Drmies. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 13:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
That the "more neutral venue" agrees with my and others' reading of "deface" should tell you something. I'm surprised you keep pushing the point when you so obviously made a mistake and all you had to do is apologize--or at least not whine and forumshop about it. It's obvious that being pissed at me and Sitush is the only reason you're in this thread; you have no clue what this is all about. That's trolling.

"BTW I have an impression that the user talk:Drmies page is used by the clique to coordinate attacks against disagreeable contributors."--that's just a stupid remark. If we were coordinating attacks we wouldn't be doing it on a talk page with hundreds of watchers including, apparently, hard-hitting superheroes who come here to right great wrongs. Drmies (talk) 04:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Please, notice Drmies’s edit summary to this posting (and simultaneous one below):
two for the price of one. who reopened this misery? why no blocks yet?
Incnis Mrsi (talk) 13:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Uh, what's your point? He's not the only one who wishes this thread was closed (see Dharmadyaksha's comment above for one example). The "two for one" thing referred to his making two comments in one edit. It's his opinion that some people should be blocked, but as he hasn't acted on it himself (which may or may not be an involved action), there's nothing wrong with him expressing that opinion. Writ Keeper  13:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: Sitush has a prodigious output when it comes to Indian subjects, he quotes from reasonably reliable sources and has good understanding of Wikipedia rules. He edits caste articles frequented by those with inadequate understanding of what Wikipedia is. He is a tireless editor ever willing to support his edits with sources and more sources. The only lacuna if there is any is his inability to understand the nuances and his tendency to be judgmental. Most of us here are willing and happy to work within Wikipedia rules and are here for building a better encyclopaedia. He ought to AFG. He also has a right to be unhappy about Modi, or India or Indian courts, however he mustn't let his beliefs overcome his responsibility to be neutral while editing Wikipedia. Also if anyone alleges lack of comprehension of his prose as a defence, I think that is a poor excuse. If there are allegations of baiting against Sitush, well is this the first time? If anyone has been apotheosised he would consider himself beyond action. No surprises here. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't know, Yogesh, what you think Situshs's "beliefs" in regard to Modi are. Why would he even have any? Drmies (talk) 04:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
      • I agree that "belief" isn't the most appropriate word in the given context, I have used it to avoid using negative sounding words like "prejudices", or "preconceived notions" etc., Drmies I'm not a mind reader what I write about Sitush is what is manifest to me from the way he deals with a particular subject. Again it is my perspective. I see the need to be able to be neutral while editing, I see that is an area that needs to be addressed. I see the need to be able to separate grain from chaff. Wikipedia isn't "my way or highway", he needs to understand that. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
        • So now I apparently need to address my neutrality? There have been numerous different claims made here regarding the nature of my contributions to Wikipedia and I'm still waiting for someone to clarify what exactly they want an admin or the community to do here. A topic ban from Narendra Modi was mentioned somewhere above but the range of reasons and the vague references to my manner of contributing in general seems to have turned this discussion into a "take a pop at Sitush if you feel like it" thread. Please will someone say what they want to happen using the format of a formal proposal. Otherwise, this thread is pointless. I'm happy to walk away from the entire project if that is what the community want, so feel free. - Sitush (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
            • I don't think they want anything Sitush. This is a content dispute that is spilling over onto ANI. The key is in the very first sentences where the original complainant doesn't seem to have a problem with your suggestions, rather he appears to feel that the level of quality you desire is only necessary for articles under GA or FA review (The article is not in GA/FA review and doesn't need so much of strict reviewing). Though one would hope that quality is independent of any formal star system, apparently not everyone shares that view. Personally, I think it worth arguing over every point as long as we're all able to move on to the next point so I wouldn't do anything different if I were you. And, since this is a public venue, let me say that your contributions to Wikipedia in general, and to various India articles in particular, are, in my opinion, invaluable. --regentspark (comment) 13:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • It does not matter if the article is under GA/FA review. The readers don't want to learn if an article is GA/FA, all they want is "good content". --Tito Dutta (contact) 19:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


This is more of a content issue than incident. Several of the named parties are already blocked for socking (by me) and a couple more will likely be if they edit again. Any new socks can be taken to SPI or you can ping King of Hearts or myself since we are familiar. I recommend taking this to the talk page and using the standard editorial process. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 20:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article likely needs someone conversant with translations to see if an apparent edit war (one editor being accused of being a sock) has any value thereto. I warned the IP editor previously about doing multiple reverts - but the editing has taken more twists than a maze at Hampton Court. No editor is being accused of anything by me, but this is an annoying enough situation that eyes would likely help. Thanks. Collect (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Is there any chance of getting some uninvolved editors with the required linguistic skills to step up for adminship? This has been going on for years, it's getting silly. Guy (Help!) 22:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
The likelihood is proportional to the number of editors who know about "self-flagellation" in at least four languages. Collect (talk) 23:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Both translations ("death" or "killing") are equally possible. This depends on context. Words "man-made" in the phrase imply intent, and therefore "killing" or "extermination" is a better translation. However, making reverts with misleading edit summaries like here is not a good idea. My very best wishes (talk) 02:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I concur that both translations are acceptable. I'm afraid this is a political issue and not a linguistic one. USchick (talk) 02:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I think there are plenty of people who can vouch for my "self-flagellation" in at least three languages :-) USchick (talk) 02:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I actually have no preference on the exact translation of the term "Holodomor" - whether it is "death by hunger" or "murder by hunger" (both of them, etymologically are justifiable) - which is what this particular round is about, not the "man-made" stuff. But regardless, the user account involved in the latest spree of edits is very obviously a sock puppet of indef banned User:Jacob Peters, one of the perennial "POV pushers banned long ago for good reason who just don't give up". He comes back to this (and some other) articles with a pretty well defined regularity.Volunteer Marek 05:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I happen to be an admin with corresponding linguistic skills. Marek, My very best wishes, and USchick are absolutely correct, both translations are acceptable. There is no difference between "to kill" and "to murder" in Eastern Slavic languages.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I also agree with Marek about multiple accounts. For example, one could compare these edits by Rediscoverer and Volunteer Eddy (who apparently mocked username of Volunteer Marek). Both tell "In 1960, an estimated 60% of agricultural land in northern China received no rain at all." There was also User:Rediscoverer2. This is already on SPI though. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • This is sort of a POV trojan horse, a Ukrainian-nationalist tinged phrasing for the mass starvation of 1932-33, which some Ukrainians claim was an intentional incident of national genocide against the Ukrainian people (neatly ignoring the fact that more than 1 million ethnic Kazakhs and ethnic Russians also died in the catastrophe). I would neutrally translate "Holodomor" as "Time of Hunger," if that's the question, but the word itself has a extremely strong nationalist vibe which implicitly links the episode to Hitler's Final Solution. The 1932-33 catastrophe is a complex historical phenomenon — a gargantuan body count and a scholarly literature sprinkled with extreme and politically-inspired interpretations. It's a swamp every bit as deep as editing on Palestinian-Israeli topics, etc. Carrite (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, upon further review, a translation of Holodomor which gets closer to the meaning would be "The Hunger-Extermination." Carrite (talk) 18:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
That would be the case if it came from verb "umorit'". However, the noun "mor" can mean death from natural causes. However I agree; this certainly mean killing in the context. There are no serious disagreements among historians that these deaths were meant by the Stalinist government: so many people died because numerous military/NKVD detachments were dispatched to prevent people from escaping regions affected by the hunger after requisition of grain. The only controversial matter if this was planned specifically against Ukrainian people. Here the opinions by historians differ. My very best wishes (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, no, that's wrong, the question of intent if not culpability is the matter of historical debate. But this is not the place to argue that. I'm sticking with "Time of Hunger" as an NPOV rendition of Holodomor and "Hunger-Extermination" as pretty close to on the mark as its actual meaning. Carrite (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually "The Great Famine" also works as an NPOV rendition. The point is that this very term implies intent and is POV on the face of it. But it is an article of faith among Ukrainian nationalists that there was genocidal intent, thus the heated editing atmosphere... Carrite (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 00:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The dispatching of military/NKVD troops to prevent movement of people from regions affected by hunger on the Ukraine was made on orders from Stalin/government (i.e. intentionally). This is a matter of historical fact. No one seriously disputes that. My very best wishes (talk) 15:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unusual situation...[edit]

...and to all a good night. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 21:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Barbarianbort is an account that was created April 5, 2012. Said user then created an account that failed AFC, disappeared for two months, added fake content to an article, reverted it, and was warned for it, disappeared for a month, posted a nonsense talk page comment, and disappeared for a month. Upon his next appearance, he attempted to redirect William Cosby to Bill Cosby by blanking and redirecting, and using deceptive edit summaries to cover his actions four times over a six month period where those were his only edits (for which he was not warned at all despite the edits being reverted), used another deceptive edit summary to vandalize an article, blanked a page, disappeared, vandalized a page again, and finally, posted some unconstructive/unhelpful talk page comments on several pages.

By and large, none of the above occurred in a grouping, and some actions really should have been taken at the time and and were not. Nevertheless, the above is an accurate representation of the user's entire edit history over the course of a year. The user has shown no inclination to be an regularly active participant on Wikipedia, and on the rare occasions upon which the user has "participated", his "participation" has been detrimental to the encyclopedia. The edit pattern indicates this editor will never edit enough to either incur 3RR or be reported on AIV. Is there enough of a pattern of history to block the account as vandalism only anyway? MSJapan (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

bort not Bort: Barbarianbort (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) -- Finlay McWalterTalk 21:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll fix that. MSJapan (talk) 22:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Deleted article was List of unfortunate names. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 21:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello, what do AFC, 3RR, and AIV mean? Also, Miss Japan, do you have citations for what you're reporting or are you just making things up? Barbarianbort (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Problem 1, he restores an apparent hoax. Problem 2, mentioned above, he redirects an article about a politician to an article about a TV personality. Problem 3, Problem 4, Problem 5, Problem 6, ditto #2. Problem 7, bizarre addition with deceptive summary. Problem 8, testing at Test. Problem 9, adds random text to the Betelgeuse article. Problems 10 and 11, not appropriate for a talk page. Problem 12, seemingly trolling someone who resolved problems #10 and #11. I've looked at all his non-deleted contributions, and from these I strongly suspect that this is a case of WP:NOTHERE. Barbarianbort, see WP:AFC, WP:3RR, and WP:AIV. The first is a place for getting articles reviewed before creating them, the second is a rule saying not to revert (undo someone else's actions) more than three times in a day, and the third is where we report blatant vandals. Your actions aren't relevant to any of those, but your editing appears to be typical of what our disruptive editing page is talking about. Nyttend (talk) 00:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
MSJapan points out my error with problem #9; it's actually Beetlejuice, some movie, not the prominent star. Nyttend (talk) 01:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
"Beetlejuice, some movie"?? [Can't believe my eyes.] Best movie ever! Bishonen | talk 19:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC).
  • Wait--so this is the best edit the user has made for us? Is there a reason, dear Nyttend, that you haven't blocked indefinitely yet? Love for your fellow man? Drmies (talk) 02:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I guess they saw this [26] Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 02:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
      • That's problem #7 in my links. I preferred to get WP:INVOLVED by demonstrating the truth of MSJapan's allegations instead of blocking without the links being available; I figured that another admin would have an easy time deciding to block. Nyttend (talk) 04:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Alright then. Cute picture, Dennis--that Mrs. Brown, before she even met Satan? Drmies (talk)
          • Am I cynical for thinking that some cynical adult lettered that sign and posed that cute little girl? Wanna fess up, anyone? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
          • Never met him, although surrounded by people who are certain that we will some day. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 15:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GigE vision and User:TeslerB making legal claims[edit]

Going to try at their talk page. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 21:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I appear to have stumbled into a sticky situation at GigE vision. While doing RC patrol, I noticed a revert on the article by User:TeslerB, who removed links to various open-source implementations of the standard, claiming that they were "illegal software." A quick check found no reliable reason to believe the software was illegal - in fact, one of the open-source implementations has been used and cited in a scientific paper published by CERN, so I reverted and mentioned on his Talk page that he needed to contact Wikimedia Foundation legal counsel if he believes the links to be illegal. Other previous edits from the TeslerB account appear to indicate some sort of COI link between him and the Automated Imaging Association, which owns the standard - he has edited a number of pages related to the group to insert registered trademark symbols, claim "illegal content" and other such edits. He has reverted the open-source links a number of times, and possibly here as an anon.

User:TeslerB has continued arguing that the software is illegal - supported by nothing other than his own assertions - and has begun to verge on making legal threats. I have advised him twice to contact legal counsel for legal matters, and warned him about the no legal threats policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I would imagine the previous IP edits, which I reverted, were also this user. --Leigh Hamilton 02:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how this violates WP:NLT. No threats have been made; This is an issue between two independent parties, and has nothing to do with Wikipedia. However, I would support a block if the edit warring continues - or Full page protection. Mdann52 (talk) 12:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comments like this are borderline. There is no direct legal threat, but there is an attempt to persuade others into complying due to an implication of it being illegal, and the product being illegal. This as a chilling effect, which is part of the reason WP:NLT exists to begin with. I don't think it breaches WP:NLT but it isn't wise. Concerns like this are better made at the talk page, in a calm manner, and not in an edit summary when reverting out a link. Edit warring is a bigger concern, but we haven't crossed a threshold there yet. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 19:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I've left a note on their talk page, explaining the error in their logic as well as the ramifications for continuing to revert. I don't think anything more is needed at this time, unless they continue to revert. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 20:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Breach of BLP topic ban[edit]

Advice given. If followed, nothing else needed. Dennis Brown - - © - @ - Join WER 19:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nataev (talk · contribs) was recently topic-banned from edits relating to Amiram Goldblum. He was subsequently blocked for breaching it; despite repeated disclaimers that he is "not interested" in the topic, he can't leave it alone, apparently out of deep frustration emerging from his belief that User:רסטיניאק is Goldblum himself. In that context, I'd like admins to consider this post on the user-talk page of רסטיניאק. It would have been reasonable for Nataev to make a polite request along these lines, but the message as a whole is an unwarranted attack and (imo) another breach of the topic ban. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey, then you're admitting what I've been saying is true. Anyhow, I ask you to leave me alone. I don't give a fuck about this topic. Just leave me alone. Nataev (talk) 08:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Admins, how can I stop some radical users from bugging me? A bunch of extremists keep getting on my nerves. They're doing their best to get me blocked. In this edit I asked to be left alone. I just want to be left alone. Nataev (talk) 09:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
What reason did רסטיניאק have for for linking Nataev?? If an editor is topic banned then linking their name in a unrelated discussion (turning on the red notification thingy) is at best unnecessary and pointless and at worst baiting. I'd suggest folks just leave Nataev alone. NE Ent 12:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
A recent one is here. My guess is that רסטיניאק (a relatively new editor) doesn't quite understand what happens when using wiki markup in mentioning another editor's name. That's why a polite notice would have been appropriate. It's certainly not baiting, and Nataev's post was a gross over-reaction. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
"turning on the red notification thingy" - Exactly! It's very annoying. I'd ask people to stop baiting me. Thank you, NE Ent. I hope this is the end of it all. Nataev (talk) 13:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Except that רסטיניאק was not baiting you and your post was highly inappropriate. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, opinions vary on what level of civility is appropriate but it wasn't horrendous by Wikipedia standards and it definitely wasn't a BLP topic ban violation. If רסטיניאק will stop with the linking and Nataev stays off their talk page that would resolve the issue, right? NE Ent 13:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Close per ENT's comment: it is correct. Drmies (talk) 14:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I would like to inform the admins of what I believe to be continued uncivil behaviour and unfounded complaints, of which I am at the receiving end at: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_Roads#AUshielding_conversions.

The entire thread should be read through in its entirety, but there are quite a few diffs supplied below with some specific edits:

  • [27] - pure adhom.
  • [28] - topic discussed has nothing to do with US Roads anyway.
  • [29] - attempt to move the discussion to more suitable place (WP:OR, DR/N), thwarted with claims of "forum hopping".
  • [30] - threats to stop contributing content if I dont fall into line, dismissal of noticeboard for WP:OR.
  • [31] - conspiracy claims, continuing about images supplied
  • [32] - issues with unrelated topics
  • [33] - more, continued conspiracy, likely unfounded claims of COI in a recent ACR i took part in

I have already removed myself from an RfC due to allegations that I personally am trying to force a specific change (I dont agree with the allegations of course). That would be the basis of the conspiracy mentioned above. I will openly admit I probably did make a few nieve mistakes at that RfC, but these shouldnt follow me to other discussions, and they certainly should derail them to the extent they have so far.

I will comply with any and all requests for my own behaviour to be modified aswell. -- Nbound (talk) 14:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Note: Case lapsed into archive - Nbound (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I glanced at it last time. When you tried to call the first link an ad hominem attack, you lost me, and I stopped reading any further (✉→BWilkins←✎) 08:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I was tossing up to link these diffs in actually, you do have to read the entire thread to even have the slightest at whats going on. I only added them as user complaints are supposed to have evidence (Though I forget which policy/where i read that though!). -- Nbound (talk) 09:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Looks like a storm in a thimble to me. Bidgee looked to get excited, but there is nothing really problematic here. I would not block Bidgee for this. Just keep discussing your differences in a civil manner please. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Im not looking to ban Bidgee, hell he contributes some pretty good content. The main issue was the continued completely unrelated disruption and utterly baseless claims made in the thread. To be honest, bringing it here has had its desired effect (he's stopped, at least for now). If the behaviour continues to the point where I would consider it harrassment (rather than maybe the results of bad day IRL), I'll bring it back up. Feel free to close :) -- Nbound (talk) 09:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
PS: Is there somewhere separate that responds to "lesser" (non-banning) conduct complaints. Its out of the purview of DRN, and some editors seem to place little value in the opinions of others. (I offered to take this to DRN and/or WP:OR relatively early on, but was essentially told its all just opinion). Im not looking to take this there now, but in future it could be handy - Nbound (talk) 09:31, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately not anymore. WP:WQA was shut down without replacement -- well except for ANI here; depending on the vagaries of who responds first you might get a little help or you might get some variant of There's nothing here requiring admin action!!! NE Ent 12:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't block Bidgee for this, but it does look he is more interested in obstructing rather than discussing. There is some ad hominem sprinkled in there, but I hear worse daily. I would just ignore him and move on and work with others, going to WP:DRN if you need to. You can't dictate his discussion style, consensus doesn't require unanimity, and while his tone is rude, it is short of personal attacks, so there isn't much an admin can do except chat with him, and I get the feeling that would make the situation worse. WQA would have been the right place, as Ent points out. I'm not sure what else we can do.