Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive826

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Duck Dynasty[edit]

There doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence that LyricalCat and Belchfire are the same user. In addition, LyricalCat hasn't actually made any bad edits (imo), and Sportfan5000 has chosen to not go forward with an SPI, so I guess we can file this under WP:OOPS. (NAC) Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 08:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Duck Dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I am concerned that Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Belchfire, user Belchfire is again using another account to edit. I don't know the right steps to take but the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Belchfire investigation has sat for a few weeks with no action. It's fairly obvious that both LyricalCat, and Roccodrift, are acting in concert. I'm not sure what can be done, but it is odd the LyricalCat is now doing the edit that Perusteltu has been lobbying for. I'll notify these users now. Sportfan5000 (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

You tried appending LyricalCat to the Belchfire SPI which had already been checkusered. Make a new one -- but posting here and at SPI etc. looks like forumshopping, alas. Accusations of socks belong at SPI and not here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't agree that LyricalCat is Belchfire. You should pursue the disagreement at Duck Dynasty based on policy arguments. Binksternet (talk) 14:01, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes - while it has appeared to many that Roccodrift is an obvious Belchfire sock, there's not enough to go on with LyricalCat, however suspicious they look. Black Kite (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Sportfan5000, can you explain more specifically what you think the suspicious behavior is? I didn't start following the page until my first edit on it on January 7, so I'm not familiar with the history of Roccodrift's opinions on the article. I'm also wondering why you have twice reverted my edits, which I think are clearly in good faith, and are almost entirely grammatical improvements (for example here). Is it just because you incorrectly suspect me to be Roccodrift? LyricalCat (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If you want an administrator to attend to SPI, post on WP:AN or the SPI talk page. CU at the SPI have said they are unable to compare accounts because they no longer have information about the older accounts. In those cases, behavioral evidence may be used. However, that is often hard to prove. Suggest you close this thread, as wrong forum. TFD (talk) 19:40, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
User talk:Sportfan5000 should be careful about throwing stones in glass houses. His earliest contributions show him to be anything but a new user. In fact he pulled some chicanery via page moves in a possible attempt to evade scrutniy of his talk page. While we don't know who is is (possibly User:Lionhead99 or even more likely User:Benjiboi), one thing we can be sure of is his report here is certainly ironic.2401:1800:7800:101:8517:1279:FF1C:50E (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved editor) You know what else is ironic? The fact that this is your very first edit yet you seem very well-versed about sockpuppetry and even noticeboards. I don't have an opinion on this thread in itself, but, well, this is something for you to think about before you call someone a hypocrite. Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 02:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated spamming of utterly non-notable awards on porn star biographies[edit]

A large number of porn-star BLPs have lately been spammed by a number of IPs who have repeatedly added utterly non-notable purely promotional "awards", named for porn video producers and distributors (Juliland Award, AEBN VOD Award, TLA Raw Award, with the recipients being selected by those companies) and intended as promotion for the sponsors of the awards. All of the edits sourced only to the porn business magazine AVN Magazine, a trade journal that covers the adult film industry. As a result of the repeated spamming multiple IPs were warned, at least one IP was blocked and several porn star bios were semi-protected. Today a recently created now auto-confirmed single-purpose account, Hanswar32 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log), resumed the spamming, with even more intensity than before, and refuses to stop in spite of being pointed to WP:Notability and WP:Notability (awards), instead edit-warring over the material. So since I have no desire to break the 3RR-barrier on any of the articles I would appreciate if one or more admins would look into the matter, and do whatever they feel is needed... Thomas.W talk to me 12:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours for edit warring across articles. I'll talk to the user about appropriate means of dispute resolution. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
User indicates a willingness to stop edit warring and engage in discussion. I've unblocked him so he can get on with it. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
@Moonriddengirl: The core of the problem isn't the edit-warring as such but the user's total unwillingness to accept that the promotional "awards" that were spammed aren't notable, and thus shouldn't be added to the articles. But I see no acceptance by the user of being guilty of spamming (see ES&L's message on the users talk page, just above the block message, which clearly states that the awards aren't notable; which is also my opinion). What we will probably see now is repeated attempts to establish the notability of the "awards", possibly through sock/meat puppets achieving "consensus" on each article separately for adding the awards. Something that would be easy to achieve since the only ones who ever edit the articles are SPAs with obvious strong connections to the adult video industry. So IMHO the best way out of it would have been to give Hanswar32 a much longer block than the few hours they got. Also please note that Hanswar32 seems to be very familiar with how Wikipedia works, how to make edits/reverts, WP guidelines etc, which contradicts his/her claims of being a totally new user. So what we're seeing is most probably an experienced user who out of necessity, i.e. because of semi-protection of several articles, created a throw-away account for the spamming, instead of continuing to use IPs for it like before... Thomas.W talk to me 16:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
User:Thomas.W, I understand your frustration. If you believe he is a sock, you can report him at WP:SPI. However, in the absence of evidence of that, giving him an opportunity to prove good faith is the proper thing to do. If he attempts dispute resolution and fails to gain consensus for any changes, future repeats of this behavior will be a clear signal that working in good faith isn't what he intends. What's important is that he has now agreed to stop warring in the articles, and we will see what he does towards resolving the issue properly. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I've just become aware of this ANI and I would like to offer my observations and comments. First, there appears to be several issues at stake here. One is the inclusion of sourced content in articles for porn actors for awards they've received, and second, is the Notability of the awards. The title of this ANI is IMO an indication of the biased opinion that some Users have in this matter

With regard to the first issue, several times I have observed User Thomas and another User consistently removing sourced content for awards that have been won either without any Edit Summary or one that includes something to the extent that their opinion of the award that it's "spam" or "marketing" or that the award is such that its mere mention should not be allowed. This brings me to the next issue, the Notability of the awards themselves. I have seen several sourced "wins" deleted such as the AEBN VOD Award and Raw Award. In the former's case, its been around since 2006 and regardless of who its sponsored by, its still factual information thats its been won by one or more actors. With regard to the latter, its brand new and started in 2013. Unless the Users making the complaint can predict the future, no one knows if the award will become Notable by WP standards, but the fact remains, a win is a win and if there's a source for it it should be allowed in the article. Other Adult awards have come and gone, such as the Venus Award, and those wins are allowed to remain in articles.

Lastly, unless the complaining Users are somehow experts in the Adult industry or actually working in it (and have sources to cite), I fail to see how they can make these accusations about the intention of the respective award programs, or, expect anyone to respect their edits when they refuse to substantiate the claims they are making about the award programs they are trying to systematically delete from the site. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@Thomas.W: I am not guilty of spamming and it’s painfully obvious that I’m not the only editor who views these awards as notable (both Scalhotrod and Rebecca1990 agree with me). I’ve replied to both you and ES&L's message on my talk page and neither of you have been able to successfully defend your “opinion” on the matter. I never claimed to be a “totally new” user but clearly stated to be “relatively new”. Yes, I have some experience on Wikipedia as an IP user but I’m still learning about the policies and compared to the rest of you, have considerably less experience. Why would I continue as an IP user when Wikipedia offers several benefits to encourage a user to create an account? Again, I’m not spamming and at least 2 other editors agree with me. It’s sad seeing you try to distort reality over a dispute instead of engaging in a meaningful discussion in order to resolve it. What’s sadder is your repeated assumption of bad faith, clearly against Wikipedia guidelines. Thankfully, we have level-minded and reasonable administrators that make just decisions and prevent biased editors from silencing those who disagree with them. Hanswar32 (talk) 04:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I haven't been back to your talkpage since I fully, completely, and successfully defended my position - I was very polite, non-threatening (if I remember correctly), and a sincere attempt to be helpful towards someone who I believe is also sincerely trying to be helpful. There most certainly was no attempt to "silence", and I'm certainly not "biased" - indeed, I don't believe I've ever edited nor read an article in the porn world (unless it's something that came up here at ANI as urgent). The overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS (one of the pillars of this project) appears to be that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page - whether it's porn awards, minor book awards for an author, local gallery awards for an artist of photography, etc. Yes, it's nice to win an award of some variety - I once won a really nice award about an article I contributed to in Afghanistan, but it's not a notable enough award to include someday on a biography both on-Wikipedia or anywhere else but my résumé and on the wall in my den. ES&L 10:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • First, I can't condone edit warring for any reason. Second, if an award ceremony is truly "notable", then it would have its own Wikipedia article about it. However, I don't know what citing something like Wikipedia:Notability (awards) does for anyone's argument, since it appears to have been labelled as irrelevant to the entire Wikipedia project as of around 2007. If the concern on the part of some in this dispute is that certain pornography-related articles will be "kept" at AfD because of someone winning a non-notable award...well, I've yet to see that actually happen at AfD (maybe someone else has though). Lastly, I don't personally have a problem with award content being added to any Wikipedia long as it has a reliable citation attached to it. Guy1890 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • GUY, please do not fall victim to the kind of WP bias that you just exhibited. Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Wikipedia article. That logic is flawed and backwards. I like and appreciate WP just as much as anyone here, but I have never based my impression of a subject on whether or not it has an article. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Wikipedia article." No kidding, but, here on Wikipedia, we have this thing called notablility, and things that are truly notable (for whatever reason) will eventually end up with their own Wikipedia article at some point. Does that mean that subjects that don't have their own Wikipedia article aren't important in the real world? No, it just means that, for the purposes of Wikipedia only, that they aren't notable. Again, I'm not opposed to including non-notable infomation in Wikipedia articles, as long as a reliable citation exists for that same information. For instance, being married doesn't make one notable, but including the reliably-sourced information that someone is, in fact, maried in a Wikipedia article isn't a problem with me.
I'd personally like to see where the "overwhelming consensus" exists "that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page" on Wikipedia. I'm not saying that that consensus doesn't exist, but I haven't come across it yet. Was this decided somewhere else at another time? Guy1890 (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
We tend to put things differently, but I agree on both counts and would like to see evidence of the "overwhelming consensus" as well. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that any award an individual has won should be allowed to remain on their page. I definitely wouldn't use an award that isn't notable enough for a WP article to try to establish an individual's notability and keep their article at AfD, but I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. I don't see whats promotional about the awards. Do you really think that someone who's reading a porn stars WP article is suddenly going to go out to purchase their films just because they looked at their awards section and saw these awards? Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@ES&L: I recognize your sincerity and for the record I wasn’t referring to you at all with regards to “silencing” other editors or being “biased”. Congratulations on your award and I fully understand the viewpoint on the inappropriateness of including non-notable awards on a person’s biography. The dispute here however differs due to the nature of these awards and the issue is summarized quite nicely by Scalhotrod.
I agree with everything Guy1890 said except I’d like to point to his attention that on my talk page I mentioned 3 types of awards and know of at least 2 others that don’t have Wikipedia articles of their own, yet are allowed to be included on all Wikipedia articles for which there is a recipient. To touch on what Guy1890 said about reliably-sourced information, I’d like to reinforce that all of the awards being disputed have reliable citations.
I’m also joining Scalhotrod and Guy1890 in their request to see evidence of this so-called “overwhelming consensus” which has so far proven to be a myth. The only thing I’ve seen thus far is consensus shifting towards the side of including these awards as I agree with both editors, along with Rebecca1990. The only talkpage that I know of which exists about this issue Talk:Tanya Tate shows consensus of including the award.
@Moonriddengirl: This issue affects over 40 articles that I’m aware of, am I supposed to open the same discussion on every one of their talk pages? Or is it sufficient in light of the above support, to go ahead and return the removed content in the absence of any consensus against such a move? Hanswar32 (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi, Hanswar32. I wouldn't actually recommend opening the discussion on every talk page, but instead finding some central and appropriate point to resolve the discussion. This is not the place to establish that consensus, though, as WP:ANI is not intended for ironing out content questions. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography might be a good place to start a discussion, perhaps an WP:RFC if the scope is wide enough, since that may attract more contributors to the discussion. Personally, this is the approach I would take before adding or removing any content related to this award from any articles, so that consensus is clear. Once edit warring has started, things can blow up rather quickly. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I'd suggest opening this up at an appropriate policy noticeboard, most likely BLPN. The pornography project is pretty much moribund. This wasn't a controversial matter until very recently, when a few accounts that do little or nothing beyon adding borderline-promotional and promotional content to porn-related bios began bulking out bios with well-below notability-threshold awards. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:AGF - WP:NPA[edit]


Huldra has been attacked by User:Ronreisman (with some clues about a potential export or tag team) on his talk page: after she warned him to take care with WP:1RR. Ronreisman :

  • "given the infamous reputation y'all have on the internet."
  • "I'll take this as confirmation that y'all do, in fact, work together to suppress and distort facts in the service of propagandistic POV."
  • "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap. Thanks for the invitation."

I add he had already been informed very kindly about WP:1RR : here and that I was myself attacked the same way by him 4 weeks ago:

  • [1] "@Pluto2012 : You disruptively reverted my edit because you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles by improperly suppressing relevant and well-sourced information in order to promote your own partisan goals."

I complained of this to him (next edit :) "And you insulted me strongly, violating WP:AGF." but he considered himself as acting right:

  • (edit summary) : "Dishonorable and dishonest action breeds disrespect.")

He went on (with Ykantor [2]) so I just left it and removed the article from my Watchlist.

There are other examples of misconduct in his edit summaries (in interactions with Hudra, Nishidani and I):

  • [3] Please stop POV-pushing, OR, propaganda on Wikipedia,
  • [4] Nish is also misrepresenting the refs;
  • [5] so that he is not misrepresented by misleading wording by a Wikipedia editor;
  • [6] Untrue info was introduced;
  • [7] Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article;
  • [8] Request to Pluto2012 to stop violating WP:AGF and WP:RS, and to cease pov-Pushing that is detrimental to the articles veracity and quality.;
  • [9] (...) propaganda when it actually praised the book's veracity;
  • [10] Reply to Huldra's misrepresentation of a referenced source (...) and discusses politically-motivated *untrue* accusations against this source;
  • ...

Ronreisman doens't seem to understand that his behaviour is not acceptable and he doesn't mind about WP:AGF and WP:NPA and if he is not strongly warned to stop, there is no reason why he would do so as proven in his recent interaction with Huldra.

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Notification to Ronreisman. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
While [11] is somewhat confrontational, I don't see problems in all those diffs you provide alleging misconduct in edit summaries. I suggest you try WP:AGF yourself. Toddst1 (talk) 13:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
You mean he is "Good Faith" when he performs these "Personal Attacks" and you claim that "Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article" or "you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia" or "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap" to someone after he made WP:1RR is in compliance with the 4st pillar of wikipedia.
Could you argue how I should "try WP:AGF myself" ? Pluto2012 (talk) 14:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I read through a bunch of the cited edits, and Ron's edits look reasonable to me. Greg (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

In general the controversy seems to be about one side that wants information deleted, and another side that wants information added. Since the added information is reliably sourced, and nobody has demonstrated that it is a tiny minority's viewpoint by citing a plethora of other sources, there seems to be no good reason to delete it or to threaten to delete it.

I have read all of the edits listed above. The article edits themselves look fine to me.

I did not understand why User:Pluto2012 and User:Huldra claim that User:Ronreisman has to follow WP:1RR. WP:3RR is the default rule throughout Wikipedia. WP:1RR only applies in particular circumstances that seem to be absent here. They offer no justification, neither here, nor on Ronreisman's talk page, of why Ronreisman should have to follow WP:1RR. However, it turns out that WP:1RR DOES apply to all pages concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict. This is not obvious from the simple link to WP:1RR posted on Ronreisman's talk page. Instead you have to follow that link, then click on the fourth link in that paragraph (to Wikipedia:General sanctions) and then search that long, long page. You won't find anything about Fawzi al-Qawuqji or Haj Amin al-Husseini there, but if you search there for "Arab", "Palestine" or "Israel" you will eventually find a summary (that does NOT mention 1RR). But! If you then click on the "full text" link there, it leads you to a paragraph of text in strikeout font, which seems to be some 2008 sanctions that are no longer in effect. That text is followed by a link to alternate sanctions that still doesn't mention any 1RR rule for pages like this. But if one scrolls down three more sections in that page, finally, under Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Further_remedies "Further remedies / General 1RR restriction" there is, finally, a mention of a 1RR rule:

All articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related.

It is not clear that that rule is actually in effect, because that paragraph ends with "Suppressed on 18:44, March 10 2012 (UTC)". It appears that the suppression only refers to PART of the 1RR rules, but even that is not clear. I hope that some editor or administrator who knows how to clean up that page can revise it to make it 100% clear what the current rules are.

Given all of the above, it can hardly be said that User:Ronreisman was warned of the WP:1RR rule about these two pages. It took me most of an hour of research to even believe that 1RR applied! To clarify for him and others, I have today added the Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement template to the talk pages of both of the relevant articles. This template directly states that 1RR applies, and links to the policy discussion in which that policy was decided upon.

There also seems to be a "sudden death" rule in effect throughout Arab-Israeli articles. It allows any "uninvolved" administrator to sanction any editor who violates any rule of Wikipedia, or even the purpose of Wikipedia, after the editor has been warned and counseled. This applies to the editors on both sides of this issue:

Ambox warning blue.svg The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you inappropriately edit pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision" section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.

Regarding WP:NPA, I do see that in some of the listed edit summaries, Ronreisman wrote about people rather than content or actions. For example [12] Request to Pluto2012 to stop violating WP:AGF and WP:RS, and to cease pov-Pushing that is detrimental to the articles veracity and quality. But in other summaries, he correctly referred to content or actions, such as [13] Untrue info was introduced or [14] Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article. Saying that an edit is "POV-pushing" criticizes the action, not the person, and is not WP:NPA. However, it would be kinder if Ronreisman had said, for example, Improve misleading wording about XXX or Try for NPOV on topic YYY by including material about side ZZZ.

In summary, the listed edits by User:Ronreisman in Haj Amin al-Husseini and Fawzi al-Qawuqji are largely reasonable and well-sourced contributions to controversial topics. He tended to provide new information on the topic in talk page discussions. Ronreisman should pay careful attention to describe his edits in a constructive way, even when frustrated.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

If 1RR was the issue, he would have been reported at WP:AE and not here. Zerotalk 11:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


User:Pluto2012, on the other hand, wrote things in talk pages like [15] Until we can find confirmation that what L&C states, I will remove this from the article, and either deleted well-sourced statements, or threatened to delete them. It is not appropriate to delete someone else's contributed text from an article "until we can find confirmation", unless it is negative material in a biography of a living person. The people that these pages describe died in the 1970s.

Pluto2012 also claimed that

This is primary source and it cannot be used if not supported by a secondary reliable source. That's well known and basic rule. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC) Pluto2012 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

to Pluto: This is misleading. wp:rs:"While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred.". Ykantor (talk) 09:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I will delete this if I don't find any secondary source or if none is provided. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Pluto2012 is wrong and Ykantor is right. Pluto2012 should not be deleting, or threatening to delete, other editors' contributions that come from primary sources "if I don't find a secondary source or if none is provided". What WP:RS actually says is:

Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

Pluto2012 also claimed that another policy applied when it clearly did not: this claim that when inserted information doesn't describe every point of view on a topic, the right answer is to delete it under WP:UNDUE rather than to insert additional well-sourced information to put the original information into better context: [16]:

Another point is that dropping a quote without contextualizing this is not acceptable because it doesn't comply with the first pillar : we write an encyclopaedia. Pure quotes are for "wikiquote". In an encyclopaedia, the context is what is around this quote and why historians think it's worth mentionning it. And of course, the contributor who would add this has to add all the points of views from all wp:rs here regarding this context

It is completely legitimate to add a single quote to an article, if that is all that one has at hand or all that one has time to add today. Others who have other quotes with other points of view should add those too, rather than deleting the first quote. Wikipedia is not written by historians or encyclopedists; it is written by ordinary people who are individual editors in a collaborative process. Pluto2012 also made several false and tendentious statements about Ronreisman. For example, immediately above this edit, cited above by Pluto2012 as the sixth "other examples of misconduct", Pluto2012 said

You put back the "Nazi allegence" tag whereas you faild to provide the battles to which al-Qawuqji participated for Germany. You had promised to do so.

Ronreisman had never promised to do so, nor was he required to do so. The whole issue was made-up by Pluto2012 inventing another illegitimate rule claiming that an infobox can't include a flag indicating military service under a country unless the proponent can state what battles the subject fought in. Many people who served in the military never fought in any battles; battles are irrelevant to military service. Ronreisman's alleged misconduct in this citation was that he defended himself in the talk page against Pluto2012's false statements about nonexistent rules.

User:Pluto2012 should pay careful attention to the purpose of Wikipedia, seeking to add article text to describe areas of conflicts more fully, rather than inventing fanciful rules and applying them to other editors. Pluto2012 should not delete article text that he sees as one-sided or primary source material.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You are entirely wrong. It is perfectly reasonable to expect good sources for contentious claims. In an area like I/P not doing so would be disastrous. You also missed the point. It was never about whether he fought in any battles but whether he served in the military at all. He didn't. (And congratulations for finding a way to shout in 24pt type.) - Zerotalk 11:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC
Zero0000 : This is not a reference to our recent discussion about Haj Amin al-Husseini's WWII military affiliation with the Waffen SS. Gnuish is referring to Pluto2012's claim that "you faild to provide the battles to which al-Qawuqji participated for Germany. You had promised to do so." This refers to Fawzi al-Qawuqji's military service, including his commission as a colonel in the Wehrmacht (see: ). Pluto2012 and Huldra repeatedly objected to mentioning Qawuqji's allegiance to Nazi Germany in the article. They objected to a series of high quality RS, apparently in an continuing attempt to keep relevant information out of the article. The nit that attracted gnuish's attention was Pluto2012's contention that the definition of 'military allegiance' required a list of battles cited from certain secondary sources (and *not* in memoirs, nor in US Government Historical Documents, etc.). Gnuish (and I) take objection to Pluto2012 falsely claiming I agreed with his contention, despite several responses that made it clear that 'battles' were not a requirement for honorable military service. Pluto rejected a series of RS that substantiated Qawuqji's services to Germany, in some cases using false claims that these RS had been castigated by other RS. In each case these claims turned out to be either untrue or Original Research (eg an Israeli historian told Pluto2012 that a well-regarded volume was unreliable; Pluto then used this hearsay as justification for rejecting all references to the volume). At one point Pluto2012 added a good scholarly reference (one of the few constructive edits he's contributed to this article) that was thoughtfully sympathetic to Qawuqji. The author explicitly stated that she would not comment on Qawuqji's WWII record, and cited a Journal article by German historian Gerhard Höpp as a good source on this subject. Pluto2012, however, argued that even Dr. Höpp's peer-reviewed article was not acceptable RS, since he characterized it as a 'primary source.' When the weight of multiple RS made it clear that Qawuqji's German military affiliations were undeniable, Pluto2012 made impolite statements and then tarred the entire article with a drive-by 'Disputed' banner, apparently in an effort to cast doubt on the the well-documented facts in the article.Ronreisman (talk) 21:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
You are correct that I misread Gnuish's words; apologies for that. I won't comment on the content since I didn't examine the sources and anyway content disputes are not supposed to be discussed on this page. Zerotalk 23:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
There are no sources "sympathic" and "unsympathic" to anybody.
Each topic has a list of WP:RS sources and wikipedia editors have to report all of them fairly in providing the due weight to each of them.
Ronreisman and Ykantor just decided to report only some of them and that's the only problem.
Now, as proven by the intervention of Gnuish who had not edited wikipedia for 1 month there is a collaboration to act as a team and they just insult and attack those who disagree.
Pluto2012 (talk) 06:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

@ Zero: yours:"It is perfectly reasonable to expect good sources for contentious claims. In an area like I/P not doing so would be disastrous.". Do you mean that Wikipedia rules should be ignored? the wp:rs states: wp:rs:"While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred." . So is Pluto right to ignore this rule? Ykantor (talk) 06:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I stand by what I said and have no idea why you think you have replied to it. Zerotalk 08:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Is it sustainable to ignore Wikipedia rules and to adapt other other unwritten (to my knowledge) rules? Is it acceptable that editors are required to behave according to unpublished rules? Ykantor (talk) 04:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
"Defame. Defame. There will always remain something."
When you write "behave according to unpublished rules?", you mean that you disagree that each of us has to report all (reliable) points of view on a matter but instead you claim that you can just chose those you want to report. Well, no Ykantor, to comply with WP:NPoV, you have to report all of these, even those you disagree with: both those who are pro- and contra- any thesis or analysis. On Adolf Hitler, on the 1948 War, on Amin al-Husseini, on all articles. But this is particularly true in articles that are controversial and delicate. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


User:Huldra also cites a Wikipedia rule that does not apply, [17]

In: "Morris; 1948", al-Qawuqji is mentioned on pages 61, 68-69, 89, 92, 133-138, 157, 278, 280-283, 338-342, 348. Of all those pages, "someone" has seen fit to quote (in extenso) p. 61, and only p. 61. Why? ... There is one word for this, and that is "cherry-picking". (Or WP:UNDUE, do be more wikipedia formalistic).

In order to insert a quote from a reputable source, an editor does not need to justify why they did not insert every other possible quote from that source, under penalty of having the quote deleted. If there are a majority of reputable sources that disagree with a quote, then someone who thinks it is "cherry-picked" like Huldra should insert balancing material (from the same or additional cited sources), rather than arguing for the deletion of material inserted by others.

Huldra also deleted 1800 bytes of relevant, reliably sourced material in this edit, with the summary saying only "undo propaganda; see talk". Calling someone else's edits "propaganda" is not showing WP:AGF, nor is reverting them appropriate. Even if someone, somewhere called a cited source "propaganda", and even if you personally think it is propaganda, it does not mean that it IS propaganda. And even if it was "propaganda", edits that cite that source are not a category of information that is subject to immediate deletion from Wikipedia. Propaganda reveals one side of an issue; instead of deleting, add other sides to the discussion. In addition, it came out later in the discussion in the talk page that the single blog source that referred to the Mallman book as being called propaganda went on to defend it against that charge, arguing that it only seemed that way because the publisher had changed the title to make the book more provocative-looking. Ronreisman dug up the context and posted the whole paragraph. It turned out that Huldra herself had "cherry-picked" the propaganda accusation out of context and in a way that tended to mislead any reader who didn't follow the link to the actual source.

User:Huldra should pay careful attention to the purpose of Wikipedia, seeking to add article text to describe areas of conflict more fully, rather than deleting text that she sees as one-sided.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Nice how you elided the part of Huldra's comment where she explained it in detail. Zerotalk 11:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


This description:"You disruptively reverted my edit because you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles by improperly suppressing relevant and well-sourced information in order to promote your own partisan goals" is accurate but, in my opinion it is too mild. As presented in a previous wp:ae, user:Pluto2012 is cheating and lying too, in order to delete other editors contributions and to force his view. Ykantor (talk) 23:02, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

If again no action is taken against Ykantor for this provocation and attack, he will feel free to go on again and again. So what ?
Anyway, the case of Ykantor is different. He is a particularly problematic contributor who refuses to make his behaviour evoluate and who has no collaborative spirit. He is just "right" and the remaining of the world is "wrong":
  • see the "famous" WP:A/E that he launched and where it would be presented that "I am cheating and lying" too.
  • his behaviour at the end of a km-long discussion he launched at the article Adolf Hitler. And still today he refuses the consensus (he is alone against the 5 contributors who have been editing this article for years) and despite this go on to edit the talk-page again and again.
Pluto2012 (talk) 07:54, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
You do not understand what is a personal attack. Saying e.g. "Pluto is a lair" is a personal attack, but stating that you are cheating and lying is a fact, backed by a list of such events.

* You mention the Hitler talk page. Looking at the opposing parties there , you may learn how to behave yourself. None of them is lying or cheating or attack personally.

*Concerning Arab Israeli conflict articles, you repeatedly delete a well supported text and images, because it is not to your anti Israeli taste, although the NPOV rule states that you should not delete it but rather add a supported opposing view (provided there is one) Ykantor (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

See also this Dilbert cartoon, which expands on the importance of criticising the behaviour, not the person (comment on content, not on contributors). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
@Demiurge: there is of course a difference between criticising the behaviour and the person but in the current case, these are the persons who are criticized and not (alleged) behaviours.
When Huldra warns Ronreisman of 1RR and when you see what Ronreisman answers, there is a problem. When you see that a Ykantor dares to writes "you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles". If this is not personal attacks then there is no more personnal attacks.
A personal attack is not just a childish insult.
@Ykantor: you go on with personal attacks. That is not acceptable. And yourself should see that all contributors critisized your behaviour, asked you to stop and some even invited you to read some of my comments.
Pluto2012 (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
I wish I would be able to write such a nice and accurate English:"you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing Wikipedia articles", but unfortunately it is a quote only. I wonder if you can guess who is the source? Ykantor (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Dilbert is great, as always. However there is a difference. The chief there says:"You are terrific, but..." while I am not saying that. Moreover thanks God, I am not his chief.

* In your user page, you refer to the "Pcount" excellent tool . How does it count? are minor or major edits considered the same? Is there a tool that count article text deletions only ? (i.e. negative contribution? I would like to use such a tool to check Pluto's contributions. He is unique since it seems that his main article space activity is deleting other editors contributions.

Your user page states: " ...occasionally venture into more contentious areas.". I will appreciate it if you have a look at 1948 Arab–Israeli War. I have listed some problems here- Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#the article has POV and .22dubious.22 problems, and the major problems cannot be dealt with, because of Pluto's repeated deletions of a well supported text. Ykantor (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

If your accusations were true, your proposals about the article about the '48 war would have received positive answers from other contributors. On the contrary, you received negative answers and more on your side, you didn't consider worth participating to any of these discussions.
The problem is that you are WP:NOTHERE to contribute in respect of wikipedia rules as proven by the fact you just refuse to agree complying to WP:NPoV in reporting all Pov's on the difficult issues of the I-P conflict : [18].
Pluto2012 (talk) 21:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Pluto's incivility (again, sigh). Why must you show your incivility by dragging my reply to another location?

I followed the rule: If you are responding to someone else's remarks, put your comment below theirs and placed my reply to Demiurge1000 in the proper place. I will appreciate it if you drag it back to the initial and right location. Ykantor (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Pluto re-use his smoke screen tactics, writing all sort of vague accusations, in order to cover his proven and repeated cheating, lying , deleting of a well sourced text because it is not to his anti Israeli taste. Ykantor (talk) 06:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
More evidence of Pluto2012 refusing to engage in discussion and that he instead attempts to exploit rules and force his view on others without debate can be found on this talk page:
Note his incredibly patronizing demands of me which he uses to revert all of my corrections and additions without discussion. Wikieditorpro (talk) 06:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@Ykantor who writes : "Pluto re-use his smoke screen tactics, writing all sort of vague accusations, in order to cover his proven and repeated cheating, lying , deleting of a well sourced text because it is not to his anti Israeli taste. Ykantor"
What smoke ? What cover ?
You complained this article was pov-ed. And you simply didn't participate to the talk page but anyway: your (numerous) comments were rejected by user:Zero0000, user:Nishidani, User:ZScarpia or I. Nobody supported you except me once. 1 constructive comment out of 20...
This was the case on 1948 Arab-Israeli War (on which I am very active) because I know the topic (File:1948 Library.jpg) and on Adolf Hitler (on which I am not really active and on which you was asked by all (5) contributors (who know the topic) to WP:DROPTHESTICK... But just reject the idea.)
This discussion is useless. Admnistrators decided not to intervene, which I deeply regret.
Pluto2012 (talk) 11:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Russavia threatening to block evade[edit]

Following on from last week's discussion of whether Russavia's talk page access should be revoked, he's now threatening to evade his block to do something about some copyright issue. This is absolutely unacceptable, and it's now time to shut off his talk page access. I would do it myself, but I have a history of disagreements with him that I'm pretty sure would rate as involvement, so I'm requesting any other admin to. — Scott talk 18:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. Jehochman Talk 18:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. Regarding the comment you left there, he is indefinitely blocked, not banned, so you may wish to make a correction. — Scott talk 18:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
He is de facto banned, not welcome to participate. If he wants to use his talk page to appeal his block I will be happy to restore access. He can email me. If he wants to use the page to stir up disruption, as he was doing, he does not need access. Jehochman Talk 00:41, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Incorrect NE Ent 00:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
How exactly does suggesting he would sock to fix issues that need fixing warrant removal of talk page access? Jehochman's revocation seems based off him asking others to handle issues on his talk page, which has repeatedly failed to gain approval as a basis for removing talk page access. For what it is worth, I just dealt with the copyright issues Russavia noted.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 18:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The consensus of the prior ANI discussion was that Russavia could maintain talk page access. Unless there's evidence the requests he's made on his talk page are specious, the facts that he has a) made the request b) waited a week for someone to take care of them indicate a willingness to abide by the block. It's most illogical in this context to remove talk page access and the most likely result is not that he won't ip edit, but rather that he'll ip edit sooner. NE Ent 19:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

This must be some kind of a joke, all he was suggesting to edit as IP to fix copyvio stuff nobody seemed interested to fix. This could be hardly seen as block evasion, especially if the report is made by a user having a dispute history with Russavia. --Denniss (talk) 20:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
No, that would most certainly be block evasion. We don't just pretend it isn't because one thinks the potential edit might be useful any more than we permit edit warring because one thinks they are right. Resolute 20:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Russavia showed any concern over copyright issues prior to being blocked? Frankly, this sudden interest in the topic, combined with threats to evade the block to fix these issues looks very much like attention-seeking to me. And we all know how Russavia craves attention... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
He is an admin on Commons so it makes sense for him to have such concerns and I don't believe such concern over copyright issues is something that merely arose following his block here. Presumably, he would have just dealt with them himself with little fanfare prior to being blocked.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation of talk page privilege for indef-blocked editor abusing it. As discussed previously, R. was on the knife's edge, and threatening to sock for whatever reason is sufficient to cut him off. No amount of Wikilawyering will change that. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose: this is a classic example of us cutting off our nose to spite our face. If there's genuinely a problem (and reporting copyright issues sure as hell ain't it) then short temporary page protection until the issue resolves itself is the way to go, rather than permanent talk page and e-mail disabling. Hell, it's an ineffective and stupid thing anyway, given all Russavia needs to do is ping, say, me or another editor via Commons, but at least this gets more eyes and is more transparent. Nick (talk) 22:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
    I suspect Russavia's desire for attention is a more likely motivator than transparency. Resolute 01:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    I couldn't care less why he's doing it, but if he's reporting copyvios that's a good thing. Legoktm (talk) 07:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    Wait, why is he even blocked if what he's doing is good? Epicgenius (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose – if Russavia's talk page privs are kept, then we may be able to be informed of some potential copyvios, as he is still a net good to the project (however small), even when blocked. If his privileges are revoked, we will receive nothing of benefit. Epicgenius (talk) 01:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
I do not think we should have in between statuses. If he can do beneficial work, he should be unblocked. If he's going to be disruptive, then he should not participate at all. When blocked the talk page is used to request unblocking, to discuss the reason for the block and that sort of thing. It is not used to edit by proxy, to grandstand, to bait other editors (such as by threatening sock puppetry), or to incited repeated ANI threads. I am not opposed to discussing conditions for Russavia to be unblocked. Jehochman Talk 01:38, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Why do we have WP:TBANs then? Someone not using his real name (talk) 02:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. They tend to be humiliating. The same objective can be achieved by directing an editor to avoid a conflict and let them know they will be blocked if they cause further trouble there. If RussAvia wants to be unblocked and restricted to working on copybook issues only, I wouldn't object, but he has to indicate a willingness to follow the rules, and avoid past trouble. He can also use his Commons talk page and any editors who want to help can go there and read that page. We have no power to restrict his activity there. Jehochman Talk 02:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment, maybe find a go-between email just for copyvio issues on a trial basis? It's such a hassle to work on an article and then realize some or all of it is a copyvio and can't be used. Or find a subpage just for copyvio issues for a few months to see if these concerns can be posted, and transferred to those who specialize in copyvio issues. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Per DD2K's comment below, this does smack of putting the cart before the horse. Sportfan5000 (talk) 06:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose, in this particular case agree with comment by Nick, above, the rationale is logical and sound when applied in this instance. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 02:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The indef knife has already been stuck in to the hilt, no need to twist it. Pointing out copyvios is a positive action that helps the project. Why make it harder or more complicated to do so? There are plenty of people watching his talk, so anything like disruption would be quickly caught, and all other posts will be closely monitored too. He should have talk priviledges. INeverCry 04:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Pushing at the edge of his block is a drama inducing tactic and blocked users shouldn't be encouraging anyone to proxy of them. If they are worried about copyvios they can sort out the cesspit that is commons without worrying about our problems. Russavia is no longer a member of the en community and should butt out. Spartaz Humbug! 04:41, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • WP:BLOCKBANDIFF clearly states indefinitely blocked users are "Still a member of the community" NE Ent 12:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose revocation We are shooting ourselves in the foot here. Finding and reporting copyvios is always good for the encyclopedia, whether coming from a blocked editor or not. KonveyorBelt 06:18, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • This isn't a vote. Russavia is indeff blocked. Which was reaffirmed twice(ANI/AN). It's absurd to claim he needs Talk page access to rescue Wikipedia from Copy right violations. Come on now. There are several venues to report such violations, and Russavia is not the only person in the fricken world that can do it. So Support revocation, or whatever. If Russavia wants to appeal his block, there are ways to do that. This vote here is a waste of time. Dave Dial (talk) 06:38, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    And one else reported those copyvios until Russavia did. I don't think you're aware of how bad of a copyvio problem we have. Maybe you should take a look (and hopefully start helping ;)) Legoktm (talk) 07:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation. Russavia's playing games with the limits on the very limited set of things indeffed users may do here, and announcing the intent to sock/IP edit unless his requests are promptly complied with crosses the line. There's also rather curious off-wiki incident where someone who has been alleged to edit as Russavia made comments to a publication not quite admitting the allegation to be accurate in a way which seems to me designed to increase the chances of another WP:OUTING dramafest. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 06:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation. OTRS is a perfectly acceptable alternative for addressing for copyvios if Russavia cannot be bothered to address the reasons surrounding their block. As such, Russavia is in no position to request improvements to the project, even those as serious as copyvios, until the reasons for their block are acknowledged and an explanation is provided on how the problematic behavior will be avoided in the future. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    No it's not. OTRS is already backlogged, and on-wiki communication is always preferred to off-wiki ones if possible.Legoktm (talk) 07:42, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
The number of requests we get and the ability of OTRS agents to address those requests are not really relevant here. What is relevant is an editor who is making demands on other editors when their rights to edit have been revoked, and evidence that the editor has threatened to skirt around their indefinite block. I don't really care how high-and-mighty the cause is; the editor has an obligation to address the terms of their block before they continue to contribute as an editor. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
The copyvio queue doesn't generally have much in the way of backlog issues.©Geni (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation Deny attention. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • This is stupid. Revoking a user's talk page when they're pointing out copyvios is a terrible idea, and is just going to make our backlog of unaddressed copyvios even worse. Legoktm (talk) 07:42, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Russavia has several other methods available to report copyvios. Let him use them. People's concerns about his record of disruptive behavior is not "stupid". Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
      • Like what? That's not what I was calling stupid, I was saying that restricting a user's ability to report copyvios is stupid. We need all the help we can get in resolving copyvios. Legoktm (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
        • OTRS. His Commons talk page. Emailing his friends. Starting a blog called "Wikipedia Copyright Violations Report". Paper, a pen, a stamp and an envelope. A Western Union telegram. Fax. Telex. Sadly, the Pony Express has gone out of business. Anything but English Wikipedia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation Anybody interested can watch his COM talk page. No need to encourage this funny game. (There was a user User:Pieter Kuiper who was very expert in reporting copyvios but blocked for other reasons. But I didn't see Commons allow to use his skills for that particular matter under the block. The same should be applicable here. If one person is blocked; he is blocked. Period. It pains, but slowly, someone will fill the gap.) Jee 08:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation, essentially per Cullen. From his behaviour, Russavia clearly has difficulty letting the project(s) go - this is a pretty big blocker on getting perspective on the problems that led to his block. Deny attention, give him some space, and if he wants to solve for copyvios he can work out why his behaviour was a problem and mature so that an actual unblock is possible. Ironholds (talk) 08:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation The good nature of those wanting open season at the talk page is noted, but the user went to a lot of trouble to produce an article that trolls his adversary Jimbo, and is now going to a lot of trouble to find something to post guaranteed to raise more trouble. There are other ways to assist the project which avoid WP:DENY violations. Johnuniq (talk) 09:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation per Cullen, et al. - although, as Dave Dial correctly points out, this isn't a vote - admin action was requested, admin action was provided. Not sure why we're still here, given that... close this and just WP:DENY seems more sensible - maybe that doesn't have enough dramaz though....Begoontalk 10:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment In his comment linked above, Russavia admits to already having block evaded is block, "as an "IP editor" as I did on the LAN Colombia article many months ago". IMO this needs to be dealt with first, and secondly blocks and bans are meant to protect wikipedia, removing his tp access isnt going to protect while letting copyvios go. Its a balancing act, his tp access is meant only to appeal his sanctions. Murry1975 (talk) 12:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've been far too involved in things in the past regarding this user, so a vote would be a bit unseemly. There are things for both sides of the battleground here to consider, though. On one hand, if the project is hosting copyvios, then it is in the best interests of all that they are corrected, regardless of the how's & why's of how it is done. On the other, the project is not dependent on one person to correct problems, and these will be found and corrected eventually without this user's input. Tarc (talk) 14:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Heh - the last part of your comment makes sense. Of course the project is hosting copyvios - thousands of them. The other part implies we should allow unrestricted TP access for <<insert your least favourite blocked user here>> when they want to post about them, regardless of other considerations. Complete the sentence yourself. Maybe it's right. I don't think it is though. It would certainly make for some interesting appeals, and some award-winning gamesmanship. Fascinating thoughts though, and drama potential unlimited. :) Cullen gave a comprehensive list of communication channels if the need is there. Begoontalk 15:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Access should be removed for:
  • Editors who don't find blocked users comments of benefit can simply unwatch the page. Russavia's comments about copyvios were so "disruptive" that no one noticed for a week, it seems. NE Ent 15:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Didn't say they were disruptive. This section might say that, though. Lots of ways of looking at it. Mine is it's deliberate gaming for attention from an indef blocked user and undesirable for that reason. You obviously disagree. Happens. Succesful though, I'll give him that - got himself another 5 minutes of "fame". I'm done here now - per DENY. Begoontalk 15:27, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think that Russavia is a vandal. People generally tend to spit in the faces of indef blocked users. Maybe it's not "five minutes of 'fame'", but rather, legitimate concerns. Epicgenius (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Ah, ok. In that case all I can recommend is some research. The search function should be enough - failing that Google. Sorry if I can't be any more help than that. Begoontalk 16:26, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Talkpage access should be removed for abuse of talkpage privileges, not constructive use of them. Do we really want to be accused of closing our ears to someone for reporting copyvio? ϢereSpielChequers 16:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Dose of reality here people, revoking his talk page access is not only going to fail at addressing his threat to sock, it is actually going to encourage him to sock and it is unlikely that there would be much of a way to stop him from socking successfully given past experiences. The most practical option is to just let him use his talk page to point out issues. At least then it is one of us non-ebil editors doing the work and not an ebil sock.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 18:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Let's revoke access if and when he does sock – this may be an empty threat. As WereSpielChequers says, talk page access should be removed for the abuse of the talk page, and Russavia is not abusing his talk page access, at least not yet. There's no reason to revoke that access unless abuse actually does happen. Epicgenius (talk) 18:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • He already has socked. He admitted this in the very comment which triggered this ANI report. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


In the above section it is incorrectly asserted that I disagree with the assessment that "it's deliberate gaming for attention from an indef blocked user." In fact, I neither agree nor disagree with that assessment; I actually just don't care. All that really matters is mainspace. All this "stuff" behind the Wikipedia:: prefix is supposed to be about keeping that going smoothly. Editors who chose to focus their time here -- especially folks with sysop bits -- really ought to have some idea of the lay of the land before taking action.
More than being a single collective community, Wikipedia is a collection of overlapping communities. One subcommunity cares more that disruptive editors be prevented from continuing to disrupt; another cares more about mainspace quality issues, specifically copyright. Both bring value to Wikipedia and should be respected. So the question becomes: when an indef blocked editor flags a copyvio, what's the best way to deal with it?
From the motivation of the blocked editor standpoint, the likely possibilities are:

  • legitimate concern over copyright violation
  • attention seeking behavior.

The best course action is one that doesn't require speculation to what the motivation is; there are actually two good choices. One is to fix the copyright with a neutral message: i.e. "rm copyvio" not "remove copyright violation that indef blocked editor flagged..." The second is to ignore it. The former is win-win in that the content is improved and the flagging editor gets minimal attention. The second doesn't benefit mainspace but provides total denial.
Staring another ANI thread when it was already hashed through five months ago is not the way to "deny" attention; it's more like, as David Bowie sang years ago, "putting out a fire with gas-o-line".
There's a non-archived discussion at blocking policy on this very issue; three months old and not many comments. We're much better at participating when we have a specific individual to attack/defend than an abstract principle. In WIkipedia-as-it-should-be, we'd all comment on the blocking policy talk page and come to a consensus on talk page unblock only yes or talk page unblock only no. In Wikipedia-as-it-is, I honestly and regretfully expect that that discussion will end in the usual "no-consensus" muddle and we'll just keep doing this again and again ... NE Ent 17:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

It's a lovely, long answer, and much of what you say is true. Read my answer above to Tarc though - if you don't want ongoing drama, which you say you don't, this is a hell of an odd path to choose. Begoontalk 17:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
He's not blocked exclusively for reporting copyvios. The deciding factor is that he's grandstanding and baiting by saying that he's going to evade the block if people don't hop to it and do what he wants them to do. This is manipulative, and it's an abuse of the talk page. Removing talk page access prevents the grandstanding, baiting and manipulation. It also shows Russavia that he has to grow up and act responsibly if he wants to get unblocked. If he doesn't want to be unblocked, he should completely leave the project. If he wants to report copyvios, he can do so via alternative channels that have already been enumerated. Jehochman Talk 17:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. I concur with all of that. And in case anyone missed any of the channels Cullen enumerated, here they are:
OTRS. His Commons talk page. Emailing his friends. Starting a blog called "Wikipedia Copyright Violations Report". Paper, a pen, a stamp and an envelope. A Western Union telegram. Fax. Telex. Sadly, the Pony Express has gone out of business. Anything but English Wikipedia. Begoontalk 17:47, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
But yet en-wiki is where these copyvio problems exist, and where they should be handled. Not a whole lot of people will take notice if he starts broadcasting copyvios on an external site, especially if he can't tell us on en-wiki about it now that his talk is removed. People will take notice if he posts them on en-wiki precisely because the issues are on en-wiki. KonveyorBelt 18:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • The stupidity of this is painful. Removing copy-vios from Wikipedia is a good thing. Full stop. I'm glad to see some reasonable editors amongst the usual torches-and-pitchforks. The fact that some editors view a removal of copy-vios by a blocked editor no differently that a blocked editor adding copy-vios is simply mind-numbing. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Socking or threatening to sock is a very bad thing. Full stop. Fixing copyvios without socking or threatening to sock? Priceless. And if R. and just continued to do that, he'd still have talk page access. Instead.... BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 20:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Evading a block to vandalize is socking. Evading a block to continue an argument is socking. Fixing copy-vios is not socking. Vowing to fix copy-vios on one's talk-page is not "threatening to sock". Wikilaywering with the argument: "well it's technically still socking" is far more disruptive than anything with which Russ has "threatened" us. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
      • How about an indef blocked user grandstanding and baiting on his talk page? Do you think that's good? If Russ were to quietly sock and do good edits I would 100 percent ignore him. It's the grandstanding and baiting that's the problem. Jehochman Talk 21:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
        • @Jfr&b: Wikilawyering? The only "wikilawyering" going on is from an editor trying to carve out a loophole that exists neither in policy nor practice. Editing with an IP while blocked is evading a block, period, full stop. (No "nudge nudge, wink wink", just "say no more".) BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 01:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
      • Joefromrandb, for the benefit of everyone reading this, could you please quote those parts of Wikipedia:Blocking policy and Wikipedia:Sock puppetry which support your claim that evading a block to fix a copyvio is permitted? —Psychonaut (talk) 09:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support restoration I am not aware of any disruptive edits that this user may have made on his talk page while blocked. Notifying the project about copyright violations certainly isn't disruptive, but is something which is very much needed. Also, some of the comments above do not make sense. Some users seem to have the opinion that he is free to report copyright violations and that people are free to act when the copyright violations have been discovered, but the user should not report the violations to his talk page but somewhere else. What would this achieve? What is the difference between reporting copyright violations on a talk page on this project or on a page on Commons, if the outcome still is that the content will be deleted? --Stefan2 (talk) 21:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    Do you think his threat to sock unless somebody did his bidding were appropriate, collegial, and helpful to Wikipedia? Jehochman Talk 22:40, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Support revocation. Russavia's use of his talk page to report copyright violations was both useful and tolerable, up to the point where he started issuing threats. Now that he's making a nuisance of himself by openly flouting community decisions, the benefits of talk page access no longer outweigh the drawbacks. Identifying copyright violations isn't so specialized a skill that we can't do without the trickle of reports he provides; anyone active at Wikipedia:Copyright problems can see that spotting copyvios on Wikipedia is like shooting fish in a barrel. More help there from editors in good standing is always welcome. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:25, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose It often seems that certain Wikipedians have an unhealthy obsession with Russavia. He may have some faults (who doesn't?), but he also has a lot of good points, and from what I can see, he's quite often been wronged against - that's not to say he's a living saint either. If people don't like his talk page, then they have the option of taking it off their watch list and ignoring it. Regarding socking/block evasion, I wonder if that's really a wise path to tread for him and for those who are so concerned about it. When there is a will and an inclination it's just as easy to check user, as it is to sock - so I fail to see why some here are becoming quite so hysterical on the subject.  Giano  09:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I have restored talk page access on condition that he won't use the page to rile other editors. For instance, he shouldn't announce plans to sock, nor insult people nor anything else that would annoy. If he wants to politely list copyright violations, that's acceptable. Jehochman Talk 10:58, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you Jehochman, that's the most sensible solution.  Giano  11:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree, a sensible step to take at this time, as long as we all remember the attached conditions if anything happens in the future. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Without going into this convoluted case itself, may I suggest to the (talk page) unblocking admin that a brief notice be placed on the now-unblocked talk page summing up the situation, so that the user in question and others posting there are under no illusions as to consequences. Jusdafax 13:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Admin help needed: one redirect, one move request[edit]

I reverted the db-g6 on this page, because it seems to be a controversial, non-admin closure on a move request.[20] (I didn't participate in that move discussion, and am not sure what happens in cases of controversial, non-admin closures.)

Separately, related to several AFDs involving off-Wiki recruiting (see for example AN discussion), this seems like an unhelpful, even pointy redirect; "not getting any" was referenced in one of the AFDs.

I don't really know what to do with either of these, but they were raised on my talk.[21] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


This one has been all over the place: Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
And now this; anybody home? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the link from the template per WP:BLP. I'm not going to go as far as to say that any mention of the blog is a BLP violation, but I do think putting it at the top of a controversial AFD is a bad idea and brings unneeded attention to the blogger.--v/r - TP 01:43, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

TParis, thanks for the help on both of these messy messes. Because I (unwisely) posted a two-fer, the main issue may have been missed: is this a reasonable redirect (part of that messy AFD situation)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I see you got that too. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Move request[edit]

Re: the Cannabis (drug) → Marijuana WP:Requested move debate, you cited "non-admin close, best have that reviewed" in your edit summary reverting Red Slash's edit. As I suggested on your talk page, since you appear to be the one who's not satisfied with the WP:RM discussion outcome and thinks a review should be done, it makes sense that you should initiate the process by requesting a WP:Move review. Msnicki (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually, if you had mentioned WP:Move review on my talk, I would have gone there. But since I've never heard of the place, and you didn't mention it, here we are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we are here now but this is the wrong place. There's no help for you here except just the advice that if you want your concern heard, you should request a WP:Move review. Msnicki (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I closed the move request. Most of those who opposed the move stated their opposition in terms of it being less common or an Americanism, both of which are demonstrably untrue (as far as the sources show). Unless I am badly misreading WP:NATURAL, we choose even less ideal titles if they disambiguate naturally from other possible topics. Unless I am badly misreading WP:COMMONNAME, we choose the demonstrably more common title over, as one editor later commented, a title asserted by some editors to be preferred in certain technical fields. There is no policy or guideline to suggest keeping the article at Cannabis (drug) and two very good ones to move it. Regardless, we don't re-fight move requests at this venue in most cases, and only the most flagrantly misguided closes would be outright reverted. Red Slash 21:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Red Slash: and you don't consider it fragrantly misguided to close a move discussion when you can't perform the move yourself? You're a non-admin, which means you can't move it, it's discouraged that you close the discussion at all if the result is to move (or where any administrative action is needed), and any administrator is free to revert your closure. Considering there was actually more opposition to a move than support at the time, your close certainly is misguided. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 04:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
"fragrantly misguided" ← you mean something smelled fishy about it? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Indeed I don't, Moe Epsilon. Happens all the time at WP:RM. (See the backlog at the bottom of the page? Imagine what it'd be like if we left all of the requests to the administrators! Often, the regulars can't close them anyway because they're involved.) As the closing instructions for RMs state, at Wikipedia, we judge consensus by weighing the strength of the arguments--in other words, it's WP:NOTAVOTE. I don't get the idea that there was "more opposition than support"--how is the number of !votes relevant? There were two policies in favor and a bunch of "it's an Americanism" arguments against, which were untrue (demonstrably so) as well as irrelevant (WP:ARTCON). Second, I've never witnessed any admin reverting a closure by a non-admin closer. (Is that different at WP:AFD?) I've closed probably thirty or so move requests and had two taken to move review (one stood, and I self-reverted my close on the other) but never had one reverted. I've been at Wikipedia for nine years and have in fact never even heard of a move closure being summarily reverted by an admin, ever. Red Slash 05:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
...and you'll notice that no one has reversed you here :) My comment below reflects the fact that articles are to be considered on their own merits, including titles, in move discussions. I disagree with your assessment that the weight of COMMONNAME outdoes user reservations, but disagreement is a fact of life. I don't think you did anything wrong, I just disagree with the reading. Keegan (talk) 06:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
smile Thank you, Keegan. I appreciate that. I filed a move review at WP:MRV (and also slightly rewrote my comment here) and will probably take a bit of a wikibreak--man, this was exhausting. Red Slash 06:43, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
It hasn't been recently, but I've closed my share of controversial requested moves over the years. Thanks for filing the MRV, take some time gnoming, but really it's all water under a very large bridge. Keegan (talk) 07:11, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Moe Epsilon, may I request that if you wish to question the close, that you do so by requesting a WP:Move review, stating your guidelines-based reasons (which, so far, you have failed to provide). That is the process we have for registering an objection and it allows a full debate. This is not the appropriate forum. We cannot suspend the rules because you're an admin and Red Slash is not. Admins are not God. They are expected to follow the guidelines, the same as the rest of us. Msnicki (talk) 05:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Msnicki, it's not so cut-and-dry as policy, guidelines, and process. The article has not been moved, so is move review the appropriate forum? It seems to me that it's more reasonable that an admin review a closure that, since it involves admin buttons to make happen, should have been closed by an admin.
A further thought on the closure: Guidelines are guidelines, they are not binding and when there is clear and equal division on a discussion over such a guideline the guideline does not trump how the community feels about a particular article. Please don't let bureaucracy interfere with community consensus or lack thereof.
That being said, I recommend rebooting the move discussion if the proponents feel that they have compelling evidence and can provide consensus. Short of that, I decline the move. Keegan (talk) 06:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Red Slate should have participated and not deemed him or herself as closer as they clearly support the move request. More people opposed than support this move but Red Slate has taken it on him or herself to discount the arguments of long term editors who have been editing the cannabis articles for years for reasons that arent clear or affirmed in any policies or guidelines. This is a completely unsatisfactory close, I do fully agree that the RM should be re-opened for at least 1 more week and a serious effort made to involve more people in the naming process as this is one of wikipedia's most popular articles and we havent even had 20 ppl participating. Given that the Americanization of this article is a core argument against the RM (and one unbelievably discounted by the closer) that all US editors should recuse themselves from closing. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Telling every American editor (including myself) to recuse is silly, SqueakBox. That is assuming that every American editor is unable to read and evaluate consensus or give an opinion that is not international (and it's pretty insulting at that). All that would be left is anti-American editors left shouting "Americanism!" and shutting the discussion down, which is no better. I also find it funny no other countries get called out on Wikipedia, never a cry of "Britishism!" or "Canadianism!" is uttered, it's the dirty Americans, apparently.. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 06:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
It's not because it's "funny"; it's because Wikipedia doesn't have the problems with Britishism or Canadianism that it does with Americanism. That said, the call for all American editors to recuse is too foolish to rate a comment. Joefromrandb (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I base my request on Red Slate's behaviour and the behaviour of the original RM requester, by asking others to recuse I am not saying every American editor is the same. But more to the point you are totally wrong that I wouldnt say exactly the same if somebody was trying to impose a British name on an internationally themed article as I would without hesitation. The reason I called out "Americanism" is absolutely not because I am anti America but simply because in this case editors are trying to Americanize an international article and your claim that because of this people are picking on Americans is pathetic and not requiring of a serious response♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:01, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
editors are trying to Americanize an international article -- excellent job of assuming good faith. Keep calm and get back to work.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
SqueakBox: I hope you know I came to this discussion because I firmly against the way the move discussion was closed (by an American) and !voted to re-open to the discussion at the move review. By seriously suggesting that all Americans recuse is painting us all with the same brush that Americans couldn't close the RM. I know you don't intend to do that; I know you have the best of intentions when you suggested it though. I think you should probably give us benefit of the doubt that most editors who contribute here are going to write their variation of English based on whichever country they live in, and that is how things get Americanized (or -ized by whichever country visits a particular article the most), not because we are trying to force it on other variations. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 16:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Do we give IPs discretionary sanction warnings?[edit]

Looking at the removals and additions of "Zionist terrorism" and "Palestinian terrorism" categories by (talk · contribs), if this were an account I'd probably warn them, not sure what to do as it's an IP. Dougweller (talk) 13:55, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Warning an IP seems reasonable to me, assuming that the IP isn't very dynamic: Can we be confident that the intended person will read the warning? Looking at the edit history, it seems to be the same person for the last couple of weeks. bobrayner (talk) 17:02, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Have you considered normal admin action? The existence of DS doesn't preclude normal admin actions. It just would not enjoy the special protections afforded by DS. If you don't need to use it, you can ignore those rules. (talk) 23:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
This IP's edits popped up on my watchlist and I discovered they had a thread here. I agree that the user has been making a lot of questionable category edits to various articles. And I do mean "questionable" in a very literal sense—I question whether the categories they are adding or removing are appropriate, but lack the subject-matter expertise to know for sure. For example, they are adding the category Category:Persecution of Muslims to articles about certain acts of violence against ethnic groups which are Muslim-majority, though the articles don't single out religious intolerance as the motive for the violence. Perhaps the categorization is inappropriate and should be reverted, or perhaps the categorization is appropriate and the articles need expansion. It would be great if some editors more familiar with conflicts involving Muslims, or ethnic groups which are Muslim-majority, to double-check the edits. —Psychonaut (talk) 20:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

BLP issues and subject editing own article[edit]

Edit reviewed by an admin... this probably would have been better off at WP:BLPN or WP:COIN anyway. Zad68 15:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the Robert Spitzer (political scientist) article. Here is the diff: --Sue Rangell 23:14, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there a specific issue with the edit that you are concerned about? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
No, am actually a fan of the gentleman. I thought it was a COI violation to edit one's own article. If I am mistaken about this, please close the discussion. I just didn't want to revert the guy, because I think what he wrote was helpful to be honest. I thought an admin should look at it to make sure it's kosher. --Sue Rangell 23:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't see much of a problem with that edit. I think the article as a whole is too resume-y, but this particular edit doesn't make it any worse. Perhaps Professor Spitzer can shine his light on Talk:Gun control? :) (Where, no doubt, he'd find his "point of view" cast in a dungeon, even with a world of scholarship to support it.) Drmies (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I proposed that his edits be kept, because I think he made them in good faith. I just wanted an admin to look at it. I don't see any problems at this point. --Sue Rangell 23:54, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
As an active editor on the page in question, I have no problem with it. WP:BLPEDIT is easy enough to follow. (And I only wish we could get his insight on our Gun control and Gun politics dispute, but that seems like asking for the moon and the stars.) Lightbreather (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Death threat[edit]

Navysealcopypasta. Again. Troll blocked, talkpage semi'ed. Euryalus (talk) 10:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit contains a threat to murder. I have blocked the IP address for 48 hours, and my feeling is that the whole thing is just some silly ranting, and that there is no need to take it any more seriously. However, I am mentioning it here in case anyone thinks any other steps should be taken. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:35, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It's this again (still bad mind you). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 08:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I had never come across it before. Well, that makes it even more clear that this is just childish trolling. If anyone is interested, this relates to trolling at Talk:Oy vey by an editor using the IP addresses and The page Talk:Oy vey has been semiprotected by Mark_Arsten, who managed to beat me to doing the protection by about half a minute. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor using epithets such as "Antisemitic traitorous racists" - topic ban proposal[edit]

Blocked indefinitely by Georgewilliamherbert. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is Bloomingdedalus (talk · contribs). After I warned him for edit-warring, his response to me included "Parasitic terrorist apologists you scum - you should be hunted and thrown in Gitmo." His talk page if full of attacks on Islam and Muslims as is at least one other talk page.[22]. User: Georgewilliamherbert placed him on notice of the decided Arbitration Committee case on Palestine-Israeli issues and then warned him about the talk page edit above, which resulted in "Please stop your insane bigotry against the Jews you parasite. Antisemitic traitorous racists such as yourself should not be editing Wikipedia. Anyone who equates criticism of a religious ideology with racism ought not be permitted to administrate anything."

There are two issues here. One is the continued insults, but the more serious one is his apparent incompetence to edit articles dealing with Jewish-Muslim issues with anything resembling NPOV, and I am calling for a topic ban in this area. Dougweller (talk) 10:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposal of topic ban relating to Jewish-Muslim issues[edit]

I propose that User:Bloomingdedalus be banned from any edits related to Jewish-Muslim issues in all areas of Wikipedia. This should also deal with these personal attacks.Dougweller (talk) 10:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Not necessary. He's NOTHERE to contribute to the encyclopedia and indeff'ed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The editor Ryulong is causing trouble again[edit]

OP blocked for 24 hours by Ymblanter. (NAC) Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 18:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ladies and gentlemen, Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), is not only edit warring AGAIN but is resorting to verbal attacks (as seen when he reverted here). take a good look at his recent edits and kno that this is true. (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The individual behind this IP has been trolling me since November and he's complaining that I'm reverting his edits to attack me across the project on multiple IP addresses and now registered accounts which are being investigated at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zarbon.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, at the very least this is a WP:BOOMERANG situation here, as the IP's recent 3 edits contain "asshole" and "maniac" in the edit summaries. Pretty clear "verbal attacks" on their own part. Sergecross73 msg me 17:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 It sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me. Admiral Caius (talk) 17:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Problem with User:Incnis_Mrsi[edit]

Collapsing as per desire of OP ES&L 00:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Formally requesting censor of User:Incnis_Mrsi privileges to revert pages. I am notifying User:Incnis_Mrsi and the wikiproject page of this request.

With respect to me, I contend that this person is stalking me. He has no other goal with respect to my work on wikipedia than to find fault and threaten me and be abusive. I also contend that he has a history of this with others which can be seen in his User_talk:Incnis_Mrsi and in this page:

I fully realize that my request will probably not be granted, but I believe that this person's past and present actions of abuse towards me and other fellow wikipedians will continue into the future and so I have decided that to make this request a part of the permanent wikipedian record.

I will not go further with this action than this formal complaint/request.

My name is Linda Fahlberg-Stojanovska. I work extensively and without compensation in providing FOSS online mathematics education resources particularly in mathematics engineering education. I a professor of mathematics and informatics in FYR Macedonia (35 years). I have a Ph.D. in theoretical mathematics (1989), but concentrate on improving engineering mathematics. I run several wikis in english and macedonian. I have youtube channels in english and macedonian,... I am active in mathforums across the globe.

History of problem with Incnis Mrsi

In May-June 2013, when I saw that the Macedonian mk.wikipedia has started to actively function, I re-registered to help with the "translation project". (I was registered in 2008 under LFS, but only contributed a single article since I saw that the site was not active, forgot that email,...) At this time I had absolutely no plans of working on the en.wikipedia. I assumed it had many, many competent volunteers doing this job. So I picked a subject and went to get the en.wikipedia article to translate it into Macedonian. The subject I picked was: Linear functions. The article I found on the en.wikipedia page had absolutely nothing to do with the standard definition of a Linear function. (It was entirely focused on the 3rd year university mathematics abstract algebra concept of Linear mappings.)

I searched all over en.wikipedia for a page on linear functions. There was nothing and this is an absolutely standard topic in algebra.

(a) I did NOT touch or change any page and I mention that I have NEVER deleted or changed anyone else's material EVER.

(b) I simply created a new page called: Linear function (mathematics). It was immediately marked for Speedy Deletion and only the intervention of several members of the math community saved it by mentioning that this material was useful and not covered elsewhere.

Result 1: User:Incnis_Mrsi deleted the new page I created. He then created a new page himself called Linear function (calculus) and copied my material into it (images and all) and this article is still online. I mention here - as I mentioned then to this person - that Linear functions have nothing to do with calculus, but to absolutely no avail. He knew, I did not. No discussion was permitted.

I was going to stop working on en wikipedia, but (a) several persons encouraged me not to give up and (b) this is important work to me.

Result 2: I continued to work on mk.wikipedia articles (and have made over 100 contributions in the last 6-8 months). I made every effort to improve my "wikipedian" skills particularly with respect to consulting with fellow wikipedians and to creating articles with the structure, content, citations, references, sharing, linking, images, ... wikipedia requires. I totally believe in the value of this OER as a incredible asset to free global education.

Result 3: In addition to working on mk.wikipedia articles, I believe I have also positively influenced en.wikipedia articles working together in the community on e.g. Congruence (geometry) and Slope and having my images and examples included on several other pages all in an incredible spirit of goodwill and cooperation.

1. In August 2013, I noted on the talk:Constant function page that as with Linear function page, the content had absolutely nothing to do with the standard definition of a constant function in the literature and suggested that someone add this definition. ABSOLUTELY no one responded to this talk. However, now knowing the process a bit better, I carefully researched and found material from both textbook and online materials in order to be able to include 7 wikipedia standard citations for correcting this omission.

2. Last month, I noticed that on the Linear equation page, a notice was posted that the page contained no inline citations. Having created a page for linear equations on the mk.wikipedia, I wrote in the talk page that I had three valid english citations for this material. Again, I changed NOTHING. Here is that talk: Please notice that User:Incnis_Mrsi responded by attacking my mk page, writing insults and abuse. He was not concerned with citations - simply with attacking me. I did not respond to this abuse, but simply requested that the citations be checked for quality.

3. Meanwhile I had been revising my earliest mk.wikipedia pages (in consultation with the mk.wikipedia board - it's a small country and we are working hard on this project), including the page on constant function. Four days ago I edited the en.wikipedia constant function adding the definition in the introduction and all of section 1 and my own image. This is the ABSOLUTELY standard definition of a constant function in all the literature. Period. I included the material that was already in the article, even though it had no citations. At the same time in the talk page of this article, I restated what I did and why and again specifically asked for help in making this article more complete. I did add 3 specific generalized examples and images (consistent with the main article page function (mathematics)) hoping to head off complaints that the "standard" definition was too restrictive. Please recall that I waited over six months after my request on the talk page for editors to do this and absolutely nothing happened. I ask you to examine the content of this page and the talk page before this edit and originally after my edit.

4. Immediately User:Incnis_Mrsi edited my edit and I contend that THE ENTIRE PURPOSE WAS TO FIND MISTAKES. This is my complaint. He was abusive and threatened me with instant reversion should I possibly attempt another edit in which he found the slightest еrror. I do not think this attitude acceptable in a wikipedian editor. I certainly may have made some minor wikipedian editing errors. But (a) they certainly were not intentional and (b) I deliberately deleted nothing that was in the article since in good faith I assumed it all to be valid (with or without citations or references).

This person searched for errors. He added templates not present before, he deleted links, he searched for cyrillic glyphs (characters) since he knows how difficult they are to see. (I have deliberately left one in the paragraph above. See if you can find it.) The search for errors was deliberate, intensive, abusive and done in spite. Further I contend that this person himself makes wikipedian errors and the bots visit his talk page and leave him messages about such errors. He simply deletes these messages off his page - multiple times.

I did not want to go as far as a formal complaint, but I did not know what to do. So I mentioned the problem on the wikiproject page (see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics#Problems_with_user:_Incnis_Mrsi). I was told about this resource and that this is the proper place for a formal complaint. So here I am. P.S. I have absolutely no idea what User:Incnis_Mrsi is referring to in his response in this discussion. Again I reiterate that I have NEVER deleted or revised anyone's work or been cynical or abusive (or indeed copied someone's work and passed it off as my own).

As I said at the beginning of this seemingly interminable discourse, I am interested only in having my complaint as part of the record on the person User:Incnis_Mrsi. Lfahlberg (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I make no other comment on any of your other comments. — Scott talk 21:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
  • User:Lfahlberg, if you had to sum up your request in just a few sentences, what would that be? What specific result are you looking for here? I plan to review your material later, but know that someone will ask for a tl;dr version. Thanks. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 21:57, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
  • My request (as I stated in the wikipedia project page and where I was reprimanded for making such a request) is simply that User:Incnis_Mrsi be asked to work with me as if I am a colleague with some credentials and that when I edit a page, he (and others) assume good faith. I am absolutely willing to discuss and compromise. He threatened me on my talk page when I edited constant function). This is not acceptable. His attitude of "simply delete" was then adopted by others without discussion because I complained. This is not right. I KNOW that his patrolling services are incredibly useful and I KNOW what it is like to work in a foreign language and how easy it is to say the wrong thing unintentionally so I put up with it (and tried really hard to avoid him), but this was crazy and I felt boxed in by all. I REALLY enjoy working on wikipedia and think I can make valuable contributions. I hereby formally withdraw my request that User:Incnis_Mrsi editor privileges be revoked. However, again I repeat my request that when I am following wiki protocol by discussing possible changes in the talk page, waiting, working with the community that a degree of respect be granted me. Thank-you. Lfahlberg (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
As someone who has worked with Lfahlberg and Incnis Mrsi (for a few months at least), a comment may be in order. I don't want to get too tied up in this for lack of time, but as far as I can make out there is nothing really "disastrous". Normally, when Incnis says something which appears to "disparage" or "dismiss" the efforts of others in an "incivil" way, usually he just means "this is wrong: it needs to be fixed." Not always in the right wording, but that's my experience. So Lfahlberg, please refrain from being so sensitive. Incnis doesn't "stalk" editors, and is not "out to threaten" them, or what else.
And of course, being rude back (no matter how much) is not really helpful either.
That's all I want to say. M∧Ŝc2ħεИτlk 23:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree with this assessment and if others agree, I allow this section to be blanked (or scratched or whatever one does to minimize collateral damage). Lfahlberg (talk) 23:37, 14 January 2014 (UTC) "fixing" links to redirects that are not broken[edit] has been making a large number of edits[23][24][25] that "fix" links to redirects that are not broken. User has been warned but ignored the warning.[26] (I doubt that he reads his talk page) So, what to do? Post three or four more warnings and see if he responds? Request a short block to get his attention? Please advise. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, not all his edits are bad. E.g. I would have done the same if I knew what was that. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Why bother the IP? It's not doing any harm, and as Staszek says, not all the edits are useless. This one was fine, although I wouldn't have bothered. I cleaned up a little after this one, but not to change what the IP did, only to fix something that the edit made me notice. It seems harmless.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
And WP:NOTBROKEN is just a guideline, anyway.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
And you didn't notify the IP. I'll do it now.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violations - User:Purrum[edit]

Hi. I am hoping someone with knowledge in the area can assist me in dealing with User:Purrum and what I understand to be copyright/plagiarism issues. Since December I have had to remove material added by this user to three articles, which were copy and pasted from other websites.[27][28][29] I recently posted a message on Purrum's talkpage, after the third removal, informing them that you can't cut and paste material from other sites if they don't display the appropriate license, a message that had also been conveyed by another user back in 2012. The only response has been reverting my edit to Kevin Heath, with no edit summary.

On a review of this user's contributions from this January 2014 alone, there appear to be further issues.

14 January: The history section in AFL Mackay, minus the bullet points, has been taken word for word from here.

9 January: "which was being carved into lucrative real estate by Mirvac. Under the terms of the deal, the oval and immediate surrounds were to remain for sporting purposes. Mirvac needed a club to occupy the oval" is a word for word copy from this article from The Age newspaper. Other parts are very similar.

Jevansen (talk) 13:01, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Certainly in terms of the Kevin Heath addition the licensing of the source is fine - GFDL is also a valid licence for Wikipedia reuse. Haven't checked the others yet. Yunshui  13:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean. Is there a reason you think the text at the source is released under a free license? Quadell (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I can confirm that these are copyright violations. It's especially troubling that he reverted the removal of copyrighted material from the article. I added a {{uw-copyright}} to his talk page, but stronger action may be needed. Quadell (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Jevansen, for being conscious of the issue. :) I know the edit summary says "undo", but he didn't actually undo the edit to Kevin Heath - he rewrote the content. If you compare, the text is different. So he listened. I hope this is a sign of good faith desire to comply with policy. Yunshui, I don't see that license, but it wouldn't matter - GFDL by itself is not an acceptable license for importing material to Wikipedia, and even if it were proper attribution must be given to comply with the license in accordance with Wikipedia:Plagiarism. But see WP:COMPLIC. GFDL is only acceptable if it is also offered alongside a Creative Commons compatible license. Unfortunately, GFDL alone is the same as no license at all for our purposes since our license migration.
The "further issues" are a serious concern. I agree with Quadell's thoughts here. I just found and removed a blatant copy-paste from October, to a 1993 article that clearly predates. This looks like a situation where a WP:CCI is necessary to ensure that prior content is not problematic and that any issues that have not yet been cleaned up will be. I'll go ahead and open that. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Interesting, I didn't realise that GFDL also required CC. Thanks, MRG. Yunshui  13:25, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Purrum is now open. We have such a huge backlog at CCI; please help. :) Jevansen, if this is an area in which you happen to work, your assistance there could be invaluable to keep copyrighted content from hanging around for longer than necessary. If you or anyone else wants to assist and isn't sure how, please feel free to stop by my talk page with questions. I'm off to speak to Purrum to explain the CCI and just see if there's any more coaching necessary regarding copyright. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


I'd like to request a block for User:Levdr1lostpassword, he is in violation of WP:Harrassment (particularly wikihounding). He is making it a habit of accusing me of baseless Wikipedia violations, and also has a habit of wanting to pick fights with me over very minor issues. He's almost taking it upon himself to be the end-all, be all of Wikipedia. and quite frankly, it's getting out of hand. Thanks. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I recently suggested Vjmlhds create some articles, which he did. I've been generally complimentary of his work. However, I felt than one of his newly created articles fails to meet WP:GNG. As a courtesy, and because we sometimes get into heated debates (mostly on our respective talk pages), I tagged the article w/ {{Notability}}. I wanted to nominate the article at AFD, but I told Vjmlhds I'd wait a week and simply tag the article instead. He repeatedly removed the template, and then came here. There's definitely a history here, but I don't think it's anything a third party can't settle. I don't think it would be fair to accuse me of harassment. Levdr1lp / talk 20:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
You know what, let's pretend this didn't happen...block request withdrawn. Vjmlhds (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Damiens.rf, incivility and Wikihounding[edit]

I'm not seeing a consensus for any sort of sanction. However, consensus is pretty tough to read when the majority of text comes from 2 users. Note on future ANI threads, to those two users who undoubtedly know why they are, opposition to your argument isn't a good reason to reiterate it. It's a call for better evidence.--v/r - TP 19:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, I find myself here after stumbling with this little jewel and examining the root of the problem with more depth. The conflict, as usual began as a simple matter of perspective between him and the creator of Tony Santiago, Mercy11. Apparently, Mercy closed their discussion despite being involved, something that was very sorely received by damiens.rf. The violation of WP:CIVIL is very straight forward, Mercy tried to discuss with him (as seen in the diff) and he lashed back. However, there seems to be more than meets the eye here. For those unfamiliar with Tony's work, he is known as long-standing sysop Marine 69-71 in this project. He is the "Marine" referenced in the diatribe (notice how he directly links Tony's user page, despite the fact that he was uninvolved in this particular argument). I am not sure from where all of this sudden aggressiveness is coming, but it appears to be unilaterally coming from damien.rf's side, since Tony was quite cordial during their last talk page interaction. When damiens.rf talks about "Marine-fan boys", he seems to be referring to the majority of WP:PUR, WP:MILHIST and several other users throughout Wikipedia. This is a rather thinly veiled attack, nothing compared to the one below it, but one that exposes the fact that his edits to this article may have a more personal motivation to them. To understand that, we need to go to the very genesis of their relationship.

I believe that the first encounter between damiens.rf and Tony was one of his infamous "deletion streaks", where he would frequently overwhelm users/WikiProjects by nominating several dozen images at once. That was actually the first time that I remember seeing his name, since he quickly became the topic among members of WP:PUR due to the fact that nominations were being done too quickly to really be attended or discussed. This notably exhausted Tony, who had uploaded images since the early 2000s, when the protocol to upload fair use images was more lax (not requiring detailed rationales, for example) and tried to talk one-on-one to solve the issue. I actually encountered him as well, since damiens'rf's super-strict definition of "copyright enforcement" could apparently overcome the consensus to keep a single image. Shortly afterwards, he was edit warring with the entirety of WP:PUR, which I noted.