Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive831

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Hacker threat today[edit]

NAC: Tiny robots may have stolen my brain, but I don't believe a hacker attack materialized. Plus, we're all looking forward to Phillipe's stand-up comedy act. BMK (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I received this beauty today:

"we the hackers of anonymous Philippines has been inform by one of our members that you and your so called friends in Wikipedia has been bullying him and prosecuting him and his articles in your web page,well in response we the hackers of Anonymous Philippines has decided to teach you guys a lesson so be ready with your deletion buttons so that you could clean the mess we will do to your beloved web page we don't stand for online bullying so be ready for war-hackers of Anonymous Philippines"

Looks like some people have nothing better to do with their lives. User indeffed. -- Alexf(talk) 13:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

[Update] Not sure where this came from or why, but it may be related to User:Malusia22. If anybody is familiar with this case (I am not), feel free to comment. -- Alexf(talk) 13:30, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Similar threat aimed at Gogo Dodo [1]after he blocked one of the Malusia socks. "War-hackers"? I suspect it's just one person. Acroterion (talk) 15:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Some people may think they can break Wikipedia, but that is impossible. They'll learn it. TitoDutta 15:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  • That's the thing about the internet. I can claim to be Liam Neeson with a particular set of skills, but that doesn't make it true. (Spoiler: it isn't.) Admins get some interesting threats but I have to hand it to you, Alexf, that's probably more entertaining than anything I've ever received. -- Atama 16:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh I can top that, and from right here on Wikipedia. In response to my including cited negative views of the subject in a biographical article I was the subject of the following: There has been a concerted all-out effort by extreme leftist and Islamofascist individuals to attack [X] publicly in his online groups, by mass emailing, and by editing and redistributing articles about him on Wikipedia to include derogatory and false information. These repetitive daily attacks have been going on for several months with the purpose of disrupting [X]'s work and interfering with his communications with other physicists online in his groups. The reason for the attacks is to prevent any chance of an American Dark Energy program getting off the ground. Our enemies want to deploy Dark Energy weapons before we do to insure world domination. Our communist and Islamofascist enemies are also buying time in which to smuggle nuclear weapons into the US to destroy us. This is not a conspiracy theory. Interference with [X]'s defense work is a serious felony under US TITLE 18 >PART I >CHAPTER 115 >§ 2388 § 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war Release date: 2005-08-03 (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.". Later in the same dispute I was listed as a "Judenrat" (one of the Jews who assisted concentration camp guards), a "blatant liar" and other similar epithets, and a statement that a suit had been filed with the US Attorney's office to prevent me posting such criticism. DES (talk) 01:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

---nuked beans go here---

Speaking of beans -- there's nothing like a hat to focus attention on a section of the wall of text known as ANI. WP:BEANS is generally something that should not be wikilinked, per beans. (Don't say "Don't stuff beans up your nose!"!!!) Beans is mostly about not making a post in the first place -- if you really think another's post is just shouldn't be there, remove the darn thing and let them know why (usually on their talk page, by email if absolutely necessary). NE Ent 11:39, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It is all related to Malusia22 and their effort to get an article published about their gang related to their fraternity. I also got this hilarious death threat a few hours before. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 17:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ya'll should see the stuff we get at the WMF. I have a literal "pile o' crazy" that goes from your run of the mill tin-foil hattery all the way up to "seriously? you wrapped the LETTER in tin foil to protect me from the tiny little robots that live in meat and stole February? Thanks, i think." Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 02:30, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Ohhhh, Philippe (WMF), please don't exaggerate. It was only the last two (or three) days of February that were stolen. BTW, where did they go? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Duh, the tiny little robots got them. You aren't paying attention, are you? :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 08:54, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Aha! I knew it! It was THEM that stole it! -- Alexf(talk) 11:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
In fairness, it also coulda been Maggie. She's bad about misplacing things. It's only a matter of time before she loses February. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 13:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Philippe Beaudette, I know there are privacy concerns and all that, but honestly, I think there would be more sympathy and understanding of WMF if we knew the level of craziness you have to deal with. I know, reading over AN and AN/I has helped me understand both the legitimate requests and the more off-beat demands some editors and readers make of admins on Wikipedia that I had been unaware of in my editing bubble. Just a thought. Liz Read! Talk! 16:04, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
We are the Legion We are the Anonymous, beware of serious threat of vandalistic violence, suicide virus or shutdown death threat, mail bomb threat, etc hacking cracking phreaking passwording, for banning anyone interested in Anna Katharina Emmerick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.82.209.228 (talk) 16:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, like that (above), exactly like that. Liz Read! Talk! 16:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Yeah, Liz, I've been thinking about that and toying with a Wikimania presentation. The problem is, for me to get the best of the stories out there, I'd have to edit them so mercilessly that we might take all the fun out of them. I'm still thinking about it, though. I've also toyed with a blog post that talks about some of what we do. I also did an office hours once and talked about our work. I'd love other ideas of how we could get some of that out there. You can take that to my talk or email me (anyone!) if you have any ideas. It's just philippe{at]wikimedia.org. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:K6Ka supporter[edit]

NAC: User:K6Ka supporter blocked. BMK (talk) 08:34, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Google Alerts sent me an e-mail when they found a new search match when one Google's "k6ka". Apparently, someone created a new Wikipedia account with the username K6Ka supporter. Here's what concerns me:

1. On the user's userpage, they state: "I am here to stop vandalizim in Wikipedia with the help of my friend K6Ka. Come and support me as well. Thank you, Siddharth"

I don't have a friend named Siddharth, nor do I know someone IRL with that name. A lot of my friends do know that I have a Wikipedia account and that I fight vandalism, but I simply can't imagine them doing something like this.

2. The username has "k6ka" in it. This concerns me a lot because a lot of people would think this is my sockpuppet. I want to clarify right now that this is NOT a sockpuppet account, and that a CheckUser is welcome to check.

I will keep an eye on this suspicious user's contributions, but I'm quite positive that whoever created this account is not someone I know personally. I would ask that the owner of this account, if they wish to edit Wikipedia, to abandon this account and create a new one, or use an existing one that hopefully has a less concerning username if possible. The last thing I want is to be blocked for sockpuppetry that I didn't do. K6ka (talk | contribs) 03:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

  • I'm not entirely sure (would someone please clarify), but in the future I think you would just need to put a brief statement at WP:UAA saying that the account was impersonating/attacking you. Whether or not the "supporter" can make up some fantastic story is not relevant, the account just needs to be indeffed. Johnuniq (talk) 03:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I guess I have a different take on this:
  1. It's clearly NOT imitation - the use of their "real name" on the userpage shows that, and it shows their intentions. Any admin would typically see that, and not consider it to be your sock
  2. People who may have interacted with you on articles (possibly even while editing anonymously) may often feel some form of brotherhood with you based on similar views, and think of you as a "friend"
  3. I do have a minor concern that the editor may already have an account and this was created as some form of alternate account - which while techically fine, might occasionally run afoul of the WP:SOCK#LEGIT aspects
The short version is this: you have a fan. Feel blessed. Most of us don't have any fans whatsoever. ES&L 11:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The user called me a "friend", and I'm rather hesitant on who I call a "friend". I have two kinds of friends - the Internet friend, which you meet over the Internet, and a personal friend, one that you met in person. Both kinds of friends require that I know the person for an amount of time and that I have worked or interacted with him/her before. So when someone pops up out of nowhere and calls me a friend... that's where I get really uncomfortable.
It doesn't seem right that I would get a fan while other users who've been on longer than me, have more experience than me, and have more edits than me, don't. I am quite wary of this person. K6ka (talk | contribs) 12:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Try becoming an admin ... the "friends" get more nasty :-) Et tu, Bruté comes to mind ES&L 13:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
  • No, it's not acceptable. K6ka, I suppose this might possibly be somebody you know IRL having a joke with you, as people can be very, uh, jocular in an open project. But it seems more likely to be a vandal you have disobliged, having a little troll with you. In any case, it needs to be stopped, if K6ka, a harmless and useful vandalism fighter, is uncomfortable enough with it that s/he comes here to ask for our help. The name "K6Ka supporter" and the comment on their userpage is pretty obvious trolling, especially if you consider that there are no other contributions than the userpage — no "vandalism fighting". I have asked them nicely (well, nicely for me) to create another account. If there's no response, I intend to delete the userpages and indeff the account. Trigger-happy Panda, there are fans and then there a stalkers. Most of us prefer to decide which people we let snuggle up to us and call us "friends", even on the internet. Bishonen | talk 14:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC).
Funny that I have been often accused of being "trigger happy" with the block button, and indeed I think I was referred to as a bully once. ES&L 14:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
No offense intended, ES&L, as I've seen you do some good work, but you seem to be having some judgement concerns today. Between telling a wary editor with a possible stalker "You have a fan. Feel blessed." and your condonement of the "jailbait" user page two threads down, seems atypical of you. Have a cup of tea, some fresh bamboo, maybe a nap. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:24, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Right, but his reasoning for wanting action was because he didn't want it to be considered as one of his socks. My argument surrounded that, n'est-ce pas? And I still stick by my comments below. Hell, we had a girl we called "jailbait" as a nickname in high school because of her penchant for older guys. It's not an uncommon nickname, and I certainly believe some overly-aggressive behaviour has taken place in that thread. Yeah, 4 nights with only 5 hours sleep causes issues...but not that bad DP 22:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree, this is blockable per WP:IMPERSONATOR. Note where it states, "One should not choose a username that implies a relationship with an existing editor (unless the account is actually owned or the relationship is acknowledged by the editor themselves)." Obviously in this case, not only is the relationship not acknowledged, it's disputed. And for what it's worth, I've been accused of being a wimp with my blocking tools (in one case on this very noticeboard when I refused to be another editor's "hitman" years ago). -- Atama 19:30, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
  • OK, I think I've waited long enough after my note to them, I'm blocking and deleting. In the unlikely contingency that K6ka's "friend" actually wants to edit Wikipedia (they haven't so far), they can just as well create a new account. Bishonen | talk 22:54, 27 February 2014 (UTC).
Thanks for taking yet another thing off my mind. The worst I can imagine are my friends begging me unsuccessfully for my password, but I haven't thought of this ever occurring. Let's hope this doesn't happen again. K6ka (talk | contribs) 03:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
If there's a similar problem again, the simplest thing is to take it to WP:UAA as recommended by Johnuniq above. For other kinds of harassment, you're most welcome back on ANI or, perhaps simpler, my page if I'm active. Bishonen | talk 10:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Amsterdad[edit]

Several editors have identified this Wikipedian's work as appearing to be paid editing. there is a discussion on User:DGG's talk page and one of their article's is at AfD. Another example is: Monica Lindstrom. I am also wondering how these articles that have been created over the past couple of years were never tagged or raised red flags despite appearing to be very promotional and poorly sourced? Who has reviewing them? Is it possible to determine? Thanks for your consideration. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:03, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

There are almost 4 1/2 million articles on Wikipedia. A handful are going to slip past the finite (and shrinking) number of people keeping track. It happens. -- Atama 19:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The first of these pages is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucian Hudson. If it is deleted, I intend to nominate others from the same ed., starting with the most dubious. Of the 4.5 million pages, perhaps about 1.5 million are substantial. My guess that at least 5% of them are similar to this, many of them from the earlier days of the project. When I joined 7 years ago, anything that technically met the GNG was accepted unless there was prejudice against the subject. The difficult question for us is not how can we get rid of them, which is easy enough if there is the will to do it (at least 1/4 of similar pages I send to AfD are being kept for lack of interest in removing them) , but how to identify the ones that are worth rewriting and find people to do the work. DGG ( talk ) 19:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I had to double-check when you said you joined 7 years ago, DGG. Because that's about the time I joined (or created an account, at least). I could swear you've been around much longer than me. I checked... And you joined one month before me. Sorry for the tangent, but it blew my mind a bit. -- Atama 23:10, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I support the concerns of DGG in this matter. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC).

Well, no one is paying me to do my volunteer work here, and if this is how my work is being treated I will definitely be considering leaving this place. Life is too important to waste on friction. For now, I will be cutting down the articles as others have suggested, as it appears I've misunderstood what good sources are and which aren't. I do apologize, if you feel it is necessary, for trying to use as many sources as possible. I will obviously have to review the rules further if I choose to stay. Amsterdad (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I haven't gone all the way back yet, but I believe these are some of the articles in question:

As a side note, Atama's response in uninspiring. Candleabracadabra (talk) 01:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Candleabracadabra, thanks for making a list of articles with potential problems. I have read up on reliable sourcing and I am working try to fix these articles as best as possible to meet Wikipedia's requirements/ Amsterdad (talk) 14:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Amsterdad You may want a mentor to guide you during the editing process Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user is one place to start. Epicgenius (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
As I told Amsterdad on the AfD, the problems are not just sourcing. Among the are: 1/ the inclusion of extraneous material and links in order to give a good impression of the importance of the subject, 2/ writing in such as a way as to state the subject's accomplishments without sources to back them up-- 3/ exaggeration, listing journal articles and book chapters as if they were books, inclusion of minor charities, not just naming the charity but saying at some length what its good works are, and claiming that everything good during the time the person was there even in a subordinate position was do the subject. His fix so far on the article at afd goes about half way to dealing with the major problems. the worst of the problems. I find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to work in this fashion unless they were being paid for it, and I find it very hard indeed to imagine why someone would pick this particularly scattered list of topics, unless they are clients responding to an advertisement. There may be an explanation, of course, Per arb com, we can not ask someone to prove they are not a paid editor, so the only recourse we have is to treat everything that looks like paid editing as it it were. Alternatively, the next arb com might decide to have enough sense to decide that outing does apply in this sort of situation where there are only commercial interests involved. Or Jimmy & those who think like him on this might realize one can not simultaneous insist both on no paid editing and on complete anonymity. DGG ( talk ) 21:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
It is clear that all creations of this editor will have to be looked at. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC).

User:AnnerTown and gross WP:BLP violations[edit]

User:AnnerTown, a WP:SPA concerning the Juggalos (gang) and related articles, has repeatedly violated WP:BLP and other policies over this matter, and seems entirely incapable of understanding the need for proper sourcing, and the need to accurately report what sources say. The latest episode involves AnnerTown asserting as fact, in Wikipedia's voice, that a homeless man, arrested after an incident which ended in a stabbing, was "a Juggalo and former member of the guerrilla insurgent group Irish Republican Army". [2] As the source cited makes clear, [3] the man himself is alleged to have made such a claim - but the source makes no suggestion whatsoever that either statement is true. Furthermore, it should be noted that the source (from May last year) only refers to charges, and an upcoming court appearence - accordingly it is highly questionable per WP:BLP policy whether this incident would belong in the article even if it could be established that the man was a Juggalo gang member, which of course the source cited doesn't state: it says - correctly - that "Juggalos are fans of Insane Clown Posse, a horror-based rap group", and says nothing whatsoever about membership of any gang. Which of course makes the entire section off-topic for the article anyway. As for the BLP implications of Wikipedia asserting as fact that a homeless man is a member of an organisation frequently regarded as terrorist, I think nothing further needs to be said. There is a long history of dubious sourcing and BLP violations regarding this and related articles, and AnnerTown has been at the heart of it. Given that AnnerTown is now edit-warring to retain this gross violation of multiple policies, and given that AnnerTown's past history (which includes a ridiculously premature appeal to ArbCom [4], and a thread started at Dispute Resolution which AnnerTown conveniently disappeared from as soon as relevent questions were asked [5], as well as multiple earlier WP:BLP violations - I'll document these later if needed), I think it would be for the best to block AnnerTown indefinitely, on competence grounds, before more damage is done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Incidentally, it should be noted that as well as labelling a homeless person as an IRA member, the edit in question also states that " a group of men accosted him for wearing a Juggalo-related T-shirt" - which isn't supported by the source either. AnnerTown is at least consistent, in that everyone involved in the incident gets to be the subject of a WP:BLP violation... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hey. In my defense, I will say the following:

  • AndyTheGrump here has been extremely rude and disruptive ever since I began writing at Wikipedia. You'll notice that all of his edits made in relation to the article in question are either to remove things, challenge things, or try to challenge the article itself. He's made it very clear that he's not interested in anything other than getting rid of the article (and now, apparently, the person who wrote it). He's also not talked this over with me at any length. He's only engaged in edit warring (of which I am also guilty) and done the absolute bare minimum for this to be reported at WP:ANI (a half-assed comment on my talk page), without attempting to resolve it peacefully.
  • This whole wacky episode started when he accused me of a BLP violation because I added a sourced statement saying that a guy committed a crime, when the source said that he was in fact planning to plead guilty. I assume that Andy's problem was that he had not yet actually plead guilty, but of course he did not explain this to me, he just told me basically "you're not competent enough to edit Wikipedia." So I read over WP:BLP, added a source saying that he was convicted, and he removed the text AGAIN, even with a source, along with another area of text about a Juggalo criminal arrested for a stabbing. He claimed that it was a BLP violation to say that the guy who stabbed people was a member of the IRA, when he himself claimed to be a former member of the IRA. (FORMER member, which is probably why he's homeless.) This struck me as ridiculous, and (to no avail) I asked him what the problem was.
  • AndyTheGrump, who is a much more experienced editor than I, did not bother to discuss any of the finer details of point #2 with me at all. He basically just said, "This is a BLP violation, and I want you blocked," and continued to edit war with me without explanation despite being asked what the problem was. If he would have said that "the problem is that he CLAIMS to be a member of the IRA, not that he IS one," then I would have simply changed the article to say that he "claimed". But an accurate Wikipedia article is not what he's aiming for here. He doesn't care if I have sources, or what the article itself says. He just wants me gone. I hope that whoever resolves this dispute will understand this and allow me to continue editing.
  • As far as the WP:SPA accusation goes, I would agree that my edits are limited to a specific set of subjects, but I don't really think that I'm "advocating" anything. I wrote the Juggalo gang article because there are plenty of sources for this phenomenon, yet no Wikipedia article. I'm also working on a couple of other Wikipedia articles on my PC right now, so this will be a moot point in the near future anyhow.
  • I have a life outside of Wikipedia, and I apologize that I forgot about the dispute resolution thing. I'm more than willing to try it again while I have some spare time. Please also consider that I don't spend a lot of time on Wikipedia, and I take frequent hiatuses as I travel, so I'm not as familiar with all of the policies and procedures as some people; I'm still getting used to things to some degree. I've edited Wikis in the past, but this is a whole new ball game, and I still have much to learn.
  • I felt that the Juggalo/IRA thing belonged in this article because this article is dedicated to documenting the Juggalo criminal element, and it might damage the reputations of Juggalos who are not criminals if it were put in the main article. I've tried to make it abundantly clear through that article that Juggalos themselves are not dedicated criminals, and the criminal element makes up only a small population of the subculture, a position which is supported by most of the sources cited by the article. Clearly, this man was a criminal, and he belonged to that criminal element. This is something that should probably be discussed in the article's talk page instead of here, and I don't think anyone should be blocked for it either way.
  • I am doing my best to understand Wikipedia policies and respond to Andy's complaints. He's doing his best to fail to provide me with relevant information and to get me blocked from Wikipedia. In my mind, that's what this boils down to.
  • Finally, all of this should be discussed on the article's talk page in order to perhaps reach some sort of agreement. I'm not perfect, and for that matter neither is Andy, but no one needs to be blocked.

AnnerTown (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

"Clearly, this man was a criminal, and he belonged to that criminal element." Um, no, repeating a WP:BLP violation on WP:ANI isn't going to do your case much good. The only thing that is 'clear' is that the source doesn't say (a) that he has been convicted of anything, (b) that he is/was a member of the IRA, or (c) that he is/was a member of any Juggalo gang... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I didn't know that Wikipedia wasn't allowed to cite arrests or criminal indictments until today, but what I meant was, he is a criminal if this is true. I'll give you that one, and I agree that this section can be removed until the court reaches a decision. Of course, you wait until we're on WP:ANI to give me these sorts of details, because you're trying to get me banned, not improve the article. Once again, that's what this boils down to. If you'd brought up any of the above issues on the article's talk page, using the detail that you are using here, they would have already been resolved, but it seems that's not the outcome that you are looking for. AnnerTown (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
  • AnnerTown (talk) - Ignorance of the community-adopted WP:BLPCRIME policy is no excuse to continually violate it, especially after being warned. Violations of the WP:BLPCRIME policy can be removed without discussion, because of legal ramifications to the Wikimedia organization (defamation). It's just that simple. Your edit-warring (even in ignorance of the policy) does not help your position very much. —Josh3580talk/hist 06:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
AnnerTown, so what you are saying is that you didn't know that Wikipedia doesn't state that people are guilty before they have been convicted of a crime, and you needed this explained to you before you would stop edit-warring such claims into articles? Ridiculous.
And you have still to explain why you think that Wikipedia should be labelling someone a member of a terrorist organisation, based on nothing but a statement allegedly made by a homeless man under the influence of alcohol. Do you think that being drunk and homeless makes someone incapable of fabrications?
And furthermore you have still to explain why any of this belonged in an article entitled 'Juggalos (gang)' when no evidence whatsoever has been presented that the individual concerned was a member of any gang. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
1. Fair enough, but it certainly would have helped if someone had explained all this to me in the first place. I think it says a lot when someone recommends that I be blocked from editing altogether instead of simply telling me what I'm doing wrong. I'll try to do better in the future, but this was an honest mistake. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but I think that educating me would be more beneficial than blocking me outright. It's a bit extreme to punish me when I don't realize that I'm doing anything wrong, especially now that I better understand the policy. Even if a discussion isn't required to remove the material, AndyTheGrump did not reference WP:BLPCRIME in the IRA instance at all, so I didn't even realize it was an issue in that case until he posted it here. It's not fair to block me when I specifically ask "What is the problem here?" and get no response. Hell, the first time he reverted the edit, the edit summary simply consisted of "reb" without any clear explanation of what that meant or why the material was being removed: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juggalos_%28gang%29&diff=597213933&oldid=597213310 AndyTheGrump should be working with me to improve the article, not being cryptic and attacking me. I am not his enemy, but he seems to believe otherwise. But I'll improve my editing in the future in that regard. Once again, I wasn't aware of that policy until today, and I apologize.
2. The article was originally titled "Criminal activity attributed to Juggalos" before being changed to "Juggalos (gang)", and I was operating under the assumption that it was not just limited to gang-related criminal activity, but to Juggalo-related criminal activity as a whole. I felt it would be better suited to place the information here than on the main Juggalo article. Furthermore, the article sourced just before that article, from the same news source, referred to "the Juggalo street gang, who are devoted fans of the horror-rap group Insane Clown Posse that participate in criminal activities." - http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/aug/06/juggalo-street-gang-member-arrested-after-attack-p/ But this is, once again, something that should be discussed and perhaps moved to another page, or simply removed.
3. Where are you getting the idea that he was intoxicated on alcohol? I didn't see that in the source. He CLAIMED that he had a few drinks. It didn't say that he was intoxicated, or even make any indication that his claims of drinking were true. Anyway, once again, this could have simple been changed to "alleged member" or "claimed he was a member" or even discussed this on the talk page. There is no chance of it being a legal liability since it came out of his mouth. AnnerTown (talk) 06:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but the "I wasn't told" argument won't wash, since I had already posted the following statement on the article talk page, in the thread you recently started: "WE DO NOT ASSERT AS FACT THAT PERSONS CHARGED BUT NOT YET CONVICTED WITH CRIMINAL OFFENCES HAVE IN FACT CARRIED OUT SUCH OFFENCES. EVER" [6] That's right, I said it in block capitals. In bold. Not normally considered compliant with talk page etiquette, admittedly, but at least it should have been obvious. I'd have thought so, at least. And no, I'm not the slightest bit interested in discussing this elsewhere. You clearly lack the competence to be involving yourself in such controversial articles if you are unaware of such elementary legal principles as the presumption of innocence - which isn't just Wikipedia policy, but law. As for the rest of your comments, they merely illustrate further that you were more concerned with padding the article with negative material than with accurately reporting sources, and it doesn't matter a damn what was said elsewhere: we don't engage in original research to decide what we think sources are saying. The article cited didn't state that the man was a Juggalo gang member, so neither can we - and accordingly it doesn't belong in the article. As for the lack of 'legal liability', even if you are right in that the homeless man can't sue us you* for stating that he is an IRA member (which may or not be true - we are of course reporting it third-hand), we also owe a duty to our readers not to post random bullshit into articles just so we can pad out an article. AndyTheGrump (talk)
*Note. It is much more likely that the person getting sued in such circumstances would be the person responsible for the edit, rather than the WMF, who take great care to ensure that they aren't accountable for such things. Which they do by ensuring that policies such as WP:BLP are in place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
And further to you not being aware of WP:BLP policies, can you explain how you were unaware of the thread entitled "A gross violation of WP:BLP policy" [7] that I posted on your talk page in January of last year, where I pointed out the multiple violations of policy you had already made? Why didn't you ask for an explanation then? AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
You never said that the IRA source had anything to do with WP:BLPCRIME, even after I had asked "What is the problem here?". You only indicated in your edit summaries that you were removing it because the idea that he was an IRA member violated WP:BLP, which is a completely different. I only learned about WP:BLPCRIME today, and it never once crossed my mind that it applied to the IRA source, since that's NOT what you said. I did figure out that the Norteno reference was related to WP:BLPCRIME after reading WP:BLP, and I added another source accordingly.
Also, the idea that I'm "only interested in negative information" is absolutely false and betrays your bias against me. Yes, I have added a lot of crimes committed by Juggalos, but I've also made sure that it is balanced out with an entire section on the differences between criminal and non-criminal Juggalos, as well as stating very clearly at the top of the page that not all Juggalos are criminals or gang members. My last major edit included quotes by police officers which have stated that not all Juggalos are gang members or criminals. This is an article about violent criminal activity. It's naturally going to have a lot of negativity. Violent criminal groups are not known for doing positive things!
But this has nothing to do with my competency as an editor, it just means that maybe the article doesn't read as well as it should. Andy is ironically just trying to pad this discussion with negative bullshit.
And I never said that he was a Juggalo gang member. You need your eyes checked. I said that this article was originally named Criminal activity attributed to Juggalos, and I was operating under the assumption that all Juggalo criminal activity would be better suited to that article than the main Juggalo article, because that's how the article started off. Maybe that's not the case, but if so, here is not the place to discuss it. (And I'm well aware that you're not interested in talking about it anywhere else, which only further betrays your bias - you just want me gone.)
As far as the old reivision of my talk page that you linked to, I doubt that I even read it or knew that it was there, considering that I apparently didn't respond. If I did, I certainly don't remember it. This was over a year ago when I knew very little about Wikipedia other than the basics. After this discussion, you can be sure that I won't forget again.
And yeah, I'm sure that lawsuit would go over real well:
HOMELESS JUGGALO: Hey, Judge. I said I was in the IRA, and then the news repeated what I said, and then Wikipedia repeated what the news said. Do I get money?
JUDGE: What the hell have you been smoking? Get out of my courtroom.
The rest of this discussion is just going to be me and Andy flinging shit at each other, apparently, so I'm done with it.
Closing argument, because I have to go to bed: STATicVapor has noted that while the article was awful when I first created it, and it still has issues, I have made an effort to clean it up and improve it. I will continue to do so. Blocking someone when they genuinely don't understand a Wikipedia policy is overkill, and I believe that the best course of action is to allow me to learn from my mistakes and grow as an editor, which I will make every attempt to do. AnnerTown (talk) 08:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, a clear lack of competence. AnnerTown "never said that he was a Juggalo gang member". but included him in an article on Juggalo gang members anyway. And thinks that's ok. And still thinks that Wikipedia should be labelling people as members of terrorists organisations based on a source that doesn't say that they are a member of a terrorist organisation. And thinks that just because they don't think they will get sued, that's ok. Ridiculous.
As for my 'bias', I'll freely admit to be biased against articles which declare people guilty prior to conviction, which cite material anonymously uploaded to filesharing websites as sources, and which still contain gross WP:BLP violations. I've just noticed that there is yet another assertion of guilt based on a source which refers to individuals who have been arrested, but not convicted - this time regarding an alleged murder. [8] I have of course removed the offending material, but at this point, I think it may be wise to ask for the entire article to be revdel'd as sorting out the valid content from the policy violations is probably less effort than recreation from scratch with appropriate sourcing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
You repeatedly calling them a terrorist organization, when they are definitely not, is a WP:BLP violation. STATic message me! 15:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump is twisting the facts here, and this should be dismissed for that reason alone. The IRA is not a terrorist org, the suspects were convicted of the "alleged" murder that he just removed and complained was a WP:BLP violation, he claims that it's wrong to include Juggalo criminal activity in an article based on Juggalo criminal activity, and he's falsely claiming that I want to use "sources anonymously uploaded to file-sharing web sites", which is not the case at all (and all of the editors working on the article besides him want to keep the source in question). Now he's asking for the ENTIRE ARTICLE to be destroyed, not just whatever he believes is offending, along with all of the reliable sources used in it, and removed from public view (!), and asking for me to be banned, so that it cannot be easily rebuilt. His agenda here is clear as day. He's using underhanded tactics to get rid of an article that he doesn't like. AnnerTown (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
User:STATicVapor, that's splitting hairs. User:AndyTheGrump's initial statement insofar as that's concerned was that the IRA is "an organisation frequently regarded as terrorist," and the IRA's own article describes them as "a guerilla insurgent group." Terrorism is such a subjective word, but that a significant number of people do regard the IRA as terrorists should be uncontroversial, whether or not they actually are terrorists. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the assertion that "the suspects were convicted of the 'alleged' murder that he just removed", that is entirely beside the point - WP:BLP policy is utterly clear: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". If they have been convicted, it is an absolute and non-negotiable requirement that a source be cited that says so. And for what it's worth I did a Google search, and couldn't find any evidence of conviction - not that I was under any obligation to do this. As for whether the IRA is a terrorist organisation or not, opinions differ - but it is an irrelevance, in that it is clearly a violation of WP:BLP policy to be describing an individual as a member of the organisation, on the dubious grounds that AnnerTown did. That AnnerTown quibbles over the legality of the IRA (Which IRA - there have been several organisations using the name, at least one of which is still engaging in bombings, shootings etc? And under which jurisdiction?) suggest to me that my comments regarding competence are still valid. Anyone with an ounce of sense, never mind a passing knowledge of Wikipedia policy, should understand that one does not describe someone as a member of "a guerilla insurgent group" without very strong grounds indeed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
  • The Provisional Irish Republican Army (which the term "IRA" is most commonly used to refer to when talking about recent history) is legally a terrorist group, so STATicVapor's comment is inaccurate. Being blunt, AnnerTown should be indefinitely blocked until they agree to follow WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME, and not to plead ignorance (this account has been around since November 2012, so not having ever looked at BLP at the very least is an unacceptable excuse). Interesting to note that that a month after the talk-page discussion went stale, and after a 5-month absence, AnnerTown popped up with this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Further gross violation of WP:BLP policy in the Juggalos (gang) article.[edit]

For some strange reason, User:Niteshift36, who clearly should be aware of Wikipedia policies by now, has decided to edit-war a clear and unambiguous violation of WP:BLP policy back into the article. The source cited describes "two men arrested in connection with [an] attack" which left a man dead, as Juggalos, and states that the victim "called himself a "Juggalo," but it's alleged he snitched and lost his life for that" [9] - all allegations, nothing in the source stating that there has been any conviction. The material Niteshift36 has repeatedly [10][11] restored to the article states that " was found dead in the woods after having been stabbed more than 20 times with a meat cleaver by Juggalo gang members after it was alleged that he was a police informant. The culprits were discovered after a member of the gang wrote a horrorcore rap song about the incident and posted it on MySpace" - an unequivocal assertion of guilt, entirely unsupported by the source cited. Since, unlike AnnerTown above, claims regarding the ignorance of policy clearly won't fool anyone, I can see no reason whatsoever why Niteshift36 shouldn't be indefinitely blocked for a gross violation of core WP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Protected. I don't have time to read very far into this one tonight, but I didn't like the back and forth on a BLP and protection is better than blocking. --John (talk) 00:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm edit warring? Grow up. You've been reverted by at least 3 separate editors. You keep acting like your interpreta(tion is the only valid one. If there is anyone here who is edit warring, it's you and if this system works at all, there really should be a WP:BOOMERANG headed your way. When edit warring with one editor didn't work, you came here. You've failed to find the mandate you wanted and another experience editor started reverting you, yet you continued to edit war, hiding behind a false BLP shield. Then you started edit warring with me too. You have no moral high ground here. You have no consensus. What you have is a raging case of article ownership and some WP:IDHT. As for your request for an indef block: Go hump someone else's leg. (spare me the whining about civil because that's just hypocritical from you). Since you've expressed your intent to not discuss anything [12], addressing your objection is pointless. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I note that Niteshift36 has offered no defence whatsoever for violating core Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:53, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Apparently you didn't note that I rejected your claim that it violates BLP. So no, I didn't defend myself because it's not happening. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
So an assertion that identifiable individuals committed a murder cited to a source that doesn't state that they committed a murder doesn't violate WP:BLP? That is an interesting interpretation of policy. Not one that will get you far though, I suspect. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Nothing says that committed the crime. It says it's believed that they did. We're not making the claim, the reliable source is reporting the belief. What I find interesting is how you seem to think none of us can read the policy correctly, only you can. In any case, your IDHT gets worse by the minute and talking to you is clearly pointless because you've already said there is nothing to discuss. I might discuss this with someone else, but I'm done entertaining your self-centered nonsense. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Nothing says that theyy committed the crime? "stabbed more than 20 times with a meat cleaver by Juggalo gang members"? "The culprits were discovered..."? And that isn't an assertion that the individuals named in the source were guilty? Ridiculous... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The article clearly calls them "the accused". Trying to cherry pick a sentence won't make you right. We're talking about ABC freakin News here, not some blog. They know about libel laws. You're just being a pain in the ass. Niteshift36 (talk)
  • Oh, guess what? This is all fucking pointless. They were convicted.[13]. Life without parole. Convicted in 2011. That took me 45 seconds to find. All this whining, bitching and teeth gnashing about BLP and you never bothered to look to see that it has already gone to trial, they were convicted and sentence. Can we PLEASE put this bullshit to rest now. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Irrelevant. The article asserted their guilt, based on a source that didn't say that they were guilty. Per WP:BLP policy, the material had to be removed. Not left until someone found a source. The policy is clear and non-negotiable. And if it was that easy to find, why didn't you find it yourself, rather than edit-warring to revert the WP:BLP violation? YOU are responsible for your edits - its not my responsibility to go around after you cleaning up your mess. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • the article called them the accused. They'd been arrested and charged. This is not a BLP issue. As for the rest of your excuse making and wound licking: You can try to save face all you want, but I don't see anyone rushing to your aid. Now, I'd love to see you do the honorable thing and contact the admin that locked the article and tell him the true issue is solved. Personally, I doubt you will. Maybe you'll prove me wrong. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Which article called them the accused? Ours didn't. It called them "culprits". Do you own a dictionary? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The ABC news article that was the source. If you are solely talking about the wording in the Wikipedia article, then you're even more wrong. You shouldn't have removed it, merely reworded it. As for a dictionary, I have one and it includes the word "pointless", which is what this conversation has become. They were convicted already. Be a stand up guy, accept it and work in the best way to include it in the article, not this pointless (there is that word again) campaign of windmill tilting. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Yup. The material you repeatedly added misrepresented the source, and violated WP:BLP policy in doing so. I carried out WP:BLP policy by removing it: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Be a stand-up guy and admit you were wrong to violate policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry you're unable to let it go. The material WILL go back in the article. Sorry you wasted all this time fighting a losing battle. I won't admit there was a violation because there was none. On the other hand, we HAVE proven they were convicted, there is no longer a BLP concern and your refusal to ask that the article be unlocked shows me you are exactly who I thought you are. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:33, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Evidently you are incapable of understanding the simple instructions in WP:BLP. It seems my suggestion that you be blocked indefinitely was justified. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Evidently you're incapable of understanding simple English. It seems that my suggestion that you go hump someone else's leg is justified. BTW, I took care of contacting the locking admin since you've proven to be the (self-censor) that I knew you'd be. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Some are entertained watching a brawl, but it is time to point out that Andy is fully correct. Adding a negative claim about a living person based on a source that does not support that claim is a BLP violation, and Andy was required to remove it. If it is true that another source has been located that allows the claim to be reinstated, suitable material could be added. Niteshift36 should spend more time listening and less time working on insults. Johnuniq (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Still without taking a position on the details of the content dispute, I have blocked Niteshift36 for the leg-humping comment and his various other bits of rudeness. --John (talk) 11:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Too bad you didn't address the edit warring. In any case, since the material has been proven to not be a BLP issue, is there a valid reason for it to be excluded any longer? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I need help to move a page over a redirect[edit]

NAME CHANGED AND REDIRECT CREATED
Seems like this is sorted out--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:37, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I want to change the name of the page Draugr to Draug. Draug was however its original name, and is now a redirect. Since i can not move a page to an already excisting page (even though it's only a redirect) I need an administrator to do this. KnutfAen (talk) 15:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this is fine, I looked at Talk:Draug to see the discussion that led to the original move, and it looks like the discussion was mostly about merging Draug and Draugr, and very little discussion about which should take precedence. You've taken the time to ask at Talk:Draugr and nobody raised an objection. I'll perform the move now, in such a way to preserve the old discussion at the Draug talk page (just by copying it to Talk:Draugr before I do the move). I don't think histmerge is necessary since the two articles were merged at one point, and it would leave an unnecessarily confusing and misleading edit history to do so. -- Atama 16:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The move is done, and Draugr now redirects to Draug. -- Atama 16:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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@Atama: A history merge was not necessary, but it was necessary to preserve the old history for attribution of the older edits. To this end I have moved it to Talk:Draug/Old history. I've also restored the earlier edits to the talk page – overlapping history doesn't matter there so much. Graham87 07:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough, thanks for the help. -- Atama 17:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Mthinkcpp and Debian edit war[edit]

BEING DEALT WITH AT DRN
Very well then... - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 06:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am trying to introduce these changes. There is a discussion in the talk page. mthinkcpp refuses to discuss what is wrong with the changes. Repeatedly refusing to discuss changes, especially controversial ones, is considered a conduct issue. Therefore I bring this issue to the administrator's noticeboard. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 22:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

  • It seems to me that User:Mthinkcpp's explanation of WP:SILENCE is correct. I don't understand the content side of the issue, nor am I going to try, having been awake now for 16 hours on 4 hours of sleep. But if they gave their position earlier, and you gave yours, and they're different, then consensus has not been reached. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 04:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
This is not about whether consensus has been reached. This is about discussion. This is about a user that systematically opposes to my changes without sensible reasons. mthinkcpp has stated to be against these changes. The user does not give a reason.
Does this situation mean that discussion on the talk page has gone as far as it could? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 10:50, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Since there's only you and one other editor participating, I suggest opening a WP:RFC to try to attract more editors to the discussion. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

This is now at DRN (Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Debian). DRN has the following policy:

"We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other dispute resolution forums."

So I would ask that this be closed. It has been my experience that solving the content dispute solves any user conduct issues, and if not, someone can refile here after the DRN case closes. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Brianis19 — Continued copyright violations despite multiple warnings[edit]

User indeffed and copyright investigation opened by MER-C. Bishonen | talk 15:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brianis19 (talk · contribs) continues to introduce copyright violations to television-related pages despite multiple warnings on his talk page since October.[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23]. He copy/pastes the episode summaries from various sites on the internet with no regard to these warnings. In fact, his recent comment to another editor after a warning was "Well then fix it yourself!!!". He has been told these need to be in his own words. This is an ongoing problem, and I am certain he has many other instances of copyvios that have either not been discovered or that he was not warned about when they were reverted (e.g. [24],[25],[26],[27] (note his edit summary says he wrote them himself, but this was not the case. He was intentionally trying to deceive). --Logical Fuzz (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I have indeffed him and opened Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Brianis19. The "fix it yourself" attitude is totally unacceptable.
That would be the third non-communicative copyvio editor I've indeffed and CCIed today. SIGH. MER-C 12:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

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Lord of Rivendell again.[edit]

Blocked for one month for 3RR violations by Canterbury Tail, warned the next block is likely to be indefinite. Bishonen | talk 21:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

You guys didin't gave much attention last time([28]) and let him go away with it, not he is vandalising my user page and writing disturbing things to his edit summary([29]), he did it because i reverted his edit on the template ([30]) by the way now he accuses my being an Islamist. Last time his accusation to me was being a Kurd as you recall. Will you take some steps now???

And yes he edits articles as he pleases, like a rogue. User:Liz, User:Chipmunkdavis, User:Underlying lk.KazekageTR (talk) 21:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not involved in the current dispute, but this edit does look like trolling. Given that this happens mere days after his latest deluge of talk page insults, perhaps it's time for Rivendell to be rusticated for his bad behaviour.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:45, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I too have not noticed the current dispute until now, but this needs to be stopped. It should have been stopped last time, and the attacks have now even moved on from political/racial ones to just baseless personal ones like "Are your parents also cousins?". CMD (talk) 22:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


Yes yes you're totally right. How about that. That is a hell of an insult to me because I've reverted his edit([31]) : "Are your parents also cousins?"

It's worth noting that Lord of Rivendell has got in trouble over editwarring in the Turkey article repeatedly. Simonm223 (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
User:Lord of Rivendell is a serial edit warrior. Only a few hours after the protection due to edit warring/content dispute was liftented, he started the war all over again:
  1. [32]
  2. [33]
  3. [34]
  4. [35]
  5. [36]
  6. [37]
  7. ([38])

For "fun" he added a series of PAs in the summary of his edits that I, as West-European, already judges as insulting. By now, he was warned twice to stop edit warring. he has been blocked twice for edit warring in the last few months. This is not funny any more and highly disruptive. The Banner talk 22:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

And the next revert after being warned three times (including one in the summery). The Banner talk 23:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Independent of this discussion, RolandR filed a complaint at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring: [39]. The Banner talk 01:42, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

He's now been blocked for two months for the edit warring. Hopefully he'll get the hint. --Ironholds (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
It's one month, not two, and after such egregious cases of trolling he should be blocked permanently, IMO.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) One month actually. But Canterbury Tail has warned him that the next block will be indefinite, which seems just right. Bishonen | talk 14:07, 2 March 2014 (UTC).

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Lupita nyong'o[edit]

I have been in an edit war with another user on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupita_Nyong%27o page. The actress is from Kenya but was born in Mexico when her father was there as a professor. She has never referred herself as a Mexican, the media calls her a Mexi-Kenyan. The editor I have been engaged with "Rekx" come under several names it edit the page and to say the actress is a Mexican. I state that just because just because a person is born in a country does not mean they claimed citizenship of that country. Many Americans are born overseas but they are still Americans. I expressed to him/her that that his/her logic is wrong, because it would mean that Senator John McCain is Panamanian. Just because he was born there. The editor thinks its personal and that "I just don't want her to be Mexican" the editor brought an interview from a latino gossip magazine, it is in written in Spanish and she/he is claiming it is an interview of Lupita stating she his Mexican and Kenyan. I told him/ her that, it is not a valid source, its a gossip mag and its in a foreign language. English Wikipedia requires it sources to be in english for all anyone know. It can be the words to Mary had a little lamb. I suggested that we can put it in the body of the article as "According to..." this way I thought wouldn’t be controversial, because the truth is there no record of her being or saying she is a Mexican national. I thought I worded it in a way for us to some form consensus, but the other user refuse to work with me and I know I am very guilty of the edit war too but I think we need an admin to intervene.

The user editor has used many different names and devices including a mobile phone and is now under the name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rekx 68.194.18.81 (talk) 10:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

This was my last edit [[40]] 68.194.18.81 (talk) 09:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And I will also like to add that even though the user I had the edit war with has many different names. Other people had engaged in an edit war over the same issue68.194.18.81 (talk) I initially put that she was a "Mexican-born Kenyan" that's what CNN and other refer to her as but the other editor said she didn't like how that68.194.18.81 (talk) 09:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Update: The editor has reverted my last edit but has chosen to ignore the notice I posted on his/her page to come here to talk 68.194.18.81 (talk) 10:23, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I have made my last edit to the page, I have reverted it back to how it was before. The other editor added his/her claims and "sources" 68.194.18.81 (talk) 10:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Like I said with his/her logic it would be that John McCain is Panamanian, being born in Mexico affords you the right to be Mexican Citizen but that does not mean she claimed it. Foreigners who have children in countries that practice "Jus soli" have to right to claim it or not claim it. Especially if her father is a diplomatic official there on duties. It's not imposed by force. I took out the Kenyan-Mexican part and work "Lupita Nyong'o is an actress...and according to... because we don't know if she has dual citizenship. You are just making the assumption that she is a Mexican national only because she was born there, And your only proof is from a gossip magazine in a foreign Language. Stop trying to make this personal trying to make it seem that I don't like Mexicans. If you have proper facts state it. All nations practice jus sanguinis (right of blood), so regardless of where one it born you are form where your parents are from. Her Parent could have or didn't claim Mexican citizenship for her. That why it article originally had "Mexican-born Kenyan". 68.194.18.81 (talk) 11:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And stating a wiki article on Mexican Nationality laws as your source that shes a Mexican national is not a valid source.68.194.18.81 (talk) 11:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


Also we are both to be blame for warring but I never vandalized. I reverted your claims without sources and constant disruption of edits what you did was vandalism, so don't point the figure at me and don't try to make it seem like I don't like Mexicans either68.194.18.81 (talk) 11:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Reading what you've written below makes me realize you still don't understand, you need valid sources and you also have know that just because, you born in a country does not make you an automatic citizen, Keanu Reeves was born in Beirut, Lebanon, is he Lebanese? Joaquin Phoenix was born in Puerto Rico is he Puerto Rican? Rocker Tommy Lee was born in Greece is he Greek? Amy Adams was born in Italy, is she Italian? the list can go on. Like I told you before, if she has Mexican citizenship then of course the article should state it, but there's no proof. 68.194.18.81 (talk) 11:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Lupita Nyong'o[edit]

I am the user who the editor above (with IP address 68.194.18.81) is referring to. Contrary to what he/she says about me having different names, I figured I would just create a Wikipedia account and start using it to post, whereas before only my IP address showed.

The user with IP address 68.194.18.81 has a problem with the inclusion of Lupita Nyong'o's dual-nationality status on her Wikipedia page, Lupita Nyong'o, and he/she seems to be content only when her Kenyan nationality is highlighted. When I edited the article to state that "Lupita Nyong'o is a Kenyan-Mexican actress...", the other user subsequently deleted the Kenyan-Mexican bit to leave only "Lupita Nyong'o is an actress..."

However, before I updated the Wikipedia article with this dual-citizenship information, the editor with IP address 68.194.18.81 had no problem posting "Lupita Nyong'o is a Kenyan actress..."

Nyong'o herself has stated in an interview to Reforma (a serious Mexican daily newspaper) that she indeed has both Kenyan and Mexican citizenships. You can access the Reform article here (via paid subscription): http://www.reforma.com/gente/articulo/713/1425085/

That same interview by Reforma was syndicated to Terra Networks and was made available for free here: http://entretenimiento.terra.com.mx/cine/actriz-de-12-years-a-slave-presume-orgullo-mexicano,741bce2e04ef0410VgnVCM5000009ccceb0aRCRD.html

In it, Nyong'o states:

"Nací en la Ciudad de México, y antes de cumplir un año me llevaron a Kenia, donde crecí. Mi padre tuvo un trabajo (como diplomático y profesor) allí, y por eso mi acta de nacimiento dice que soy mexicana, tengo ambas nacionalidades..."

Translation:

"I was born in Mexico City, and before turning one I was taken to Kenya, where I grew up. My father had a job (as a diplomat and professor) there, and that is why my birth certificate says I am Mexican; I have both citizenships..."

Note: I have added this citation to the Wikipedia article.

Furthermore, Mexican nationality is automatically conferred to "individuals born in Mexican territory regardless of the nationality of their parents;" as noted in Mexican nationality law. This is also cited (and locked!) in Lupita Nyong'o's Wikipedi article. The reason it had been locked is because this the editor with IP address 68.194.18.81 kept vandalizing Lupita Nyong'o's article in the past.

I ask you to please prevent this editor from further vandalizing the article.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rekx (talkcontribs) 10:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Can it be any more clearer than Lupita Nyong'o herself stating that she has both Kenyan and Mexican citizenships? No. It cannot get any clearer than that. That is from an interview she did which appeared on Reforma on 8 September 2013. http://www.reforma.com/gente/articulo/713/1425085/ (Syndicated here for free: http://entretenimiento.terra.com.mx/cine/actriz-de-12-years-a-slave-presume-orgullo-mexicano,741bce2e04ef0410VgnVCM5000009ccceb0aRCRD.html )

Update:

My 11:47, 2 March 2014‎ update had been made to reflect this in a language that is clear and not prone to confusion:

"Lupita Amondi Nyong'o (born 1 March 1983) is an actress and film and music video director of dual Kenyan and Mexican citizenship."

It cannot be any clearer than that. Please prevent the other user with IP address 68.194.18.81 from vandalizing the page any further. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rekx (talkcontribs) 11:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

This thing sounds like a content dispute. You two need to stop edit warring and calmly talk the issue through on the article talk page (which is empty of any discussion on anything!) before editing restrictions on both of you or the article result. And stop making mutual accusations of vandalism for stuff which clearly isn't WP:vandalism. I won't comment on the content dispute since this is the wrong place. But I will say that as Wikipedia:Verifiability makes clear, while we prefer English sources, we do allow non English ones if no suitable English replacements exist. As this is a WP:BLP we also require high quality sources, although we would generally be more tolerant of lower quality sources if it's an interview with the subject, particularly in cases relating to self identification (but note there's a difference between someone acknowledging multiple citizenship and national self identification) or other simple factual details of the subject. Nil Einne (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Vandal, harassing threats of lawsuits[edit]

Have reported to AIV. Pending a block, probably wise to report here as well, given the lawsuit bullshit. JNW (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The IP has been blocked for 72 hours by CIreland. (tJosve05a (c) 15:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
It's dynamic (what a surprise). Bishonen | talk 15:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC).

issue on French WP (diff in French)[edit]

Nothing the English Wikipedia can do here. Also, creating an account and then not using it is pretty useless. See also WP:DUCK. Huon (talk) 17:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, For several weeks now, French WP administrators have been thinking I was another contributor (due to one (wrong) filter reaction after a revert of mine). After 6 requests which only met ironical and blunt rebukes, I asked for a CU (about myself). They not only did not do it but blocked me (as a sock puppet of the other contributor !!!). I feel completely offensed by their attitude and as I cannot manage having them facing facts, I decided I could try here, where good faith and civility are not an option. See this diff for instance : http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipédia:Vérificateur_d%27adresses_IP/Requêtes/mars_2014&diff=prev&oldid=101725742 (in French) I understand that Fr WP and en Wp may not be the same but as part of WM projects, I hope for a resolution of this incident what I consider a blatant lack of care for this project's values. Thank you in advance. With the best, --90.96.71.143 (talk) 16:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC) I just created account User:Slinggelid so that you may be sure that I am one person, as I use a dynamic IP ad. usually.

en Wikipedia CAN'T resolve, or arbitrate on any other Wikipedia.Arildnordby (talk) 16:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello, soo...is there any WM Ombudsman or SOMEONE on earth who could have them CHECKING facts ? I tried 2 Admin's TP, Abuse filter 3 times... Noticeboard, CU. They just refused to check it because they think that it is likely (sic) that I am another...Thank you--90.96.71.143 (talk) 16:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Etiquette of Redmen44[edit]

RESOLVED
Resolved on article talkpage.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello,

I'm coming to AN/I today because I am concerned about the etiquette of Redmen44. Recently, he removed sources on List of Major League Baseball players with 300 career stolen bases with the rationale of "it slows down my apparatus", which in itself is not a very good reason to remove sources. Also, many similar Featured Lists such as List of Major League Baseball players with 100 triples use individual references. I am currently trying to reference every player and he and I continued to revert each other (part of which is my fault). I finally left him a message on his talk page, but he removed it within hours of me putting it up. However, I'm not concerned just because he removes messages, but that he continued and the fact that he removes people's messages gives me no confidence that anything would get resolved, so I came to AN/I to get community input. Thoughts anyone? Sportsguy17 (TC) 22:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Concur with report. Editor is slow edit warring but I didn't see the notice required for WP:AN3 so I added. Someone did ask Redmen44 to add edit summaries to revert, and they've been doing that, at least. I suggest OP follow suggestion another editor made to discuss at Talk:List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_with_300_career_stolen_bases#References NE Ent 22:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I added some thoughts there and hopefully some more editors will opine, but generally in lists under WikiProject Baseball, individual references are expected, since official references may disagree. Sportsguy17 (TC) 22:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

archivetop|status=Resolved|result=Editors are discussing on article talk page. NE Ent 23:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

It is not resolved at all, since Redmen44 took it upon himself to revert again, which is again inappropriate, but I don't want to break 3RR, so I'm not going to revert but this is not cool. And Redmen44, it's not about computer speed for the thousandth time, it's about verifiability, something Redmen44 does not seem interested in, sadly. Sportsguy17 (TC) 23:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

It is appropriate since the current consensus on the talk page is 2 to 1 for Redmen44's position. NE Ent 00:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
He is overruling consensus from WikiProject Baseball. Why do people believe less "clutter" is more important than having verifiable content. Plus, it is not a vote. Lets see what happens when regular featured content contributors comment and then we'll see. I highly doubt issacl and Redmen44 will be supported, since it is a norm to have individual references, but we'll see. Sportsguy17 (TC) 00:15, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't doubt any of that, but is there any reason discussion should be continuing here on what is now a content dispute? NE Ent 00:18, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Atisone Seiuli[edit]

I think this needs to be speedy deleted if someone could check it out. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Spam links by Arbappy.eee[edit]

User:Arbappy.eee (talk, contribs) seems to be here for the sole purpose of adding spam links. Specifically (all links are diffs):

Possibly related IP addresses are 103.15.43.234 (edited the same link into Imagination Technologies immediately prior to Arbappy.eee's work) and 59.152.98.76 (started changes to Graphics tablet which Arbappy.eee then finished). -- Perey (talk) 08:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

User:84.127.80.114 and Debian edit war[edit]

BEING DEALT WITH AT DRN
--Guy Macon (talk) 06:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been recently blocked for 48 hours. I insist that I was not the one edit warring. I even reduced the amount of my changes to a minimum. I got a WP:AN3 warning to not be disruptive in the article. I only reverted the disputed changes that used non neutral language. I was not disruptive. I was blocked because I made a change to the article.

My unblock request is not answered. I see that administrators are busy but I cannot work without an answer. I am worried this will be an excuse to block me for a longer period of time if I try to make any changes to the article. My ability to bold edit and revert is virtually blocked. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You're not blocked - if you were, you could not have edited here DP 18:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Have you been edit-warring at Debian? Yes. Has Mthinkcpp been edit-warring? Yes, but to a much lesser degree. You were more insistent with your reverts, having reverted twice in the same day, while the reverts that Mthinkcpp had made were spaced days apart. Neither one of you violated the three revert rule (reverting more than 3 times in a 24 hour period) but Bbb23 made the decision to block you as being the more aggressive editor in this case. I'm not sure I would have made that decision, but I don't think it was the "wrong" decision either; I can see the logic behind it.
In either case, you can and should be blocked again if you insist on reinserting the information that was disputed through reverts and is being discussed on the article's talk page. The proper way to resolve this is to convince other editors that you are correct. If you can't do that, and can't achieve consensus, it can't be added. If you can't understand that, or refuse to accept it, and continue on this path you'll be blocked again. Just continue the discussion at the article talk page, and resolve it there. Also, look at our page on dispute resolution for advice about how to best deal with an issue where you are unable to come to an agreement with another editor. -- Atama 18:48, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Of course I am not technically blocked. But I "should" be blocked again if I repeat my actions. Therefore another bold edit or revert will mean a new block. I do discuss. I did discuss then. Reverters do not. Atama says that content without consensus cannot be added. I reverted that content without consensus and I got blocked. If what I did is considered edit warring, why cannot these changes be made to WP:WAR?
Will my next bold edit/revert to the article mean a new block? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Probably. The reason why such blocks are made are to force people to handle these disputes as they're supposed to be done; through the article talk page. For reference, read bold-revert-discuss, which is the usual course of events. (Someone makes a bold edit, another person reverts it, and they settle it by discussion; you're at the discussion stage now.) -- Atama 21:56, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Atama says someone is at the discussion stage. I certainly am. Will I be blocked again if I try to reintroduce the changes more slowly? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 10:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I suggested dispute resolution, and linked to it for a reason. It has suggestions for how to proceed. If you feel that you are trying to facilitate discussion, but only one other person is participating, then go to the link I just provided. It suggests asking for a third opinion to weigh in. If that third opinion isn't enough to sway either side, you can try asking at the dispute resolution noticeboard for assistance, or if you want to continue the discussion at the talk page, start a request for comments and try to get input from even more people. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that if you can't convince others to your point of view and find that you are either alone in your opinion or you are in the minority, that you're not going to succeed. Move on and find something else to contribute to the article or another article. -- Atama 16:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The IP 84.127.80.114 has filed a case at WP:DRN so this discussion should be discontinued as DRN does not allow multiple conversations in multiple venues. Thanks Atama for your good advice to the IP and thanks to the IP for choosing dispute resolution over edit warring. Cheers!--KeithbobTalk 19:35, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Family / friends tag-teaming on an article on fringe claim of vaccine killing someone[edit]

The family and friends of Al Plastino are tag-teaming to perpetuate their edit-warring with a WP:FRINGE claim that a flu vaccine gave him Guillain-Barré. One editor on the article talk page misrepresents the CDC, which contrary to this editor does not say flu vaccines give people Guillain-Barré. The article states clearly that Plastino suffered from Guillain-Barré, with citing. But no disinterested, unbiased source claims the vaccine killed him — only the family, which has something to gain by putting that claim on Wikipedia as a way to bolster any lawsuit. They also make an additional claim that's untrue. This hijacking of a Wikipedia page by the subject's family and friends to push a fringe view unsupported by any source other than themselves is shameful. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I've left JohnRTroy a warning about adding original research to Wikipedia. I see that the page has also been protected as well for the duration of this dispute. -- Atama 21:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Protected for a week. Miniapolis 21:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
While I appreciate the claim originated from the family one of who wrote something asking for wikipedia to be changed, is there any real evidence they are the ones editing? Seems more likely to be people who didn't know the subject personally but were influenced by the article such as fans of someone who looks likely to have many. Nil Einne (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it matters who's doing the editing (they're registered accounts, hence the full protection); the repeated insertion of the unreliably-sourced claim is the deciding factor. All the best, Miniapolis 21:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
A few quick notes. Mark Evanier is a noted comics journalist, and he's actually considered a reliable source, being quoted several times in the actual article, so if Atama is going to say I used "original research", then all the Evanier quotes would need to be removed. There is precedent of him being considered a reliable source in the comics field. Secondly, I tried to act in good faith, citing the source accurately and leaving it alone. The argument seemed to start with the Guillian-Barre claim. I saw nothing suspect in that claim, as the WP itself cites a reliable source that links GBS to any form of the virus including vaccines, although I can see why people might be concerned. I regret that it escalated to this point--however, I do feel that Tenebrae could have avoided this by not suddenly and completely reverting the article and responding in a confrontational manner like he did in the talk page. I have never encountered this issue before, and I also felt rather than assume the page was "under attack" (it certainly wasn't), he immediately went here, bypassing even getting the working group on comics involved. JRT (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The page was under attack, whatever the intentions are. When 3 editors arrive at an article to tag team and inject information into it, inserting information on 5 different occasions, that's an edit war. I will concede that Tenebrae violated WP:3RR by reverting 4 times in 24 hours, and if he had not brought the issue here in an attempt to stop the edit war I would have blocked him (though that would be punitive at this point). -- Atama 22:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Whoops. You're right — I'd honestly thought I was right at 3, and even said something to that effect on one or more of the talk pages. I shouldn't have gone over, but it was inadvertent. Thank you for being understanding.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
JRT is mixing apples and orange. Mark Evanier is a reliable source on comics and TV, not medicine. As well, the post this editor mentions is not Evanier's independent reporting: Evanier himself did not research and make the statement about vaccines causing GBS. All Evanier did is accept a family member's quote at face value and disseminate it with a headline literally reading "Let's Correct Wikipedia on Something!" That's not what I would call rigorous journalism, and it's certainly out of his field of expertise.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Let's back up a second, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. This is a biographical article about a comics professional, and Evanier is quoted a lot and has provided reliable information in the past. At least in the past he's been considered a reliable source, even in that very article. I think he's reliable when he wants to correct the cause of death of Plastino, and he's got the connections to be a reliable source for the quote of family members based on his track record and his own quotes as sources. Try to understand something--From my own perspective, you seem more offended he used that title in his article (in the talk page, you rant about it), when I can understand how exasperating it is to have to be quoted in print before you can correct an error on WP (I've been on WP longer than you, though not as active, so I'm no novice), then used the GBS quote as an excuse to revert, apparently not understanding that it can be linked to flu vaccinations, at least according to all the research, which was the main reason you reverted the page. Then we got into an argument over the cause of GBS, and all I saw was somebody make accusations over my editing motives, then immediately escalate it here without even wanting to discuss it with the other Comics group right away. From my perspective, you came across (and are coming across) as somebody who's hostile and letting his own personal ego get in the way of edits, and are getting emotional over having your own edits changed. Even in the talk page and the WP:Comics page, you are coming across as hostile, thinking I'm "threatening an edit war" on the WP:COMICS talk when I just want other comics experts involved in evaluating the statement. (Since it ends up being a class of egos if just two people disagree) JRT (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
You make a good case for accepting as reliable the report of a claim by a family member. For the specific point that this injection actually caused Guillain–Barré syndrome, and that it did so in this case, I suggest that we would need relevant expert opinion. Not, on this point, the report of comics experts. Richard Keatinge (talk) 23:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, I honestly don't care if the claim of his death by the vaccine should be part of Wikipedia, just that he died of the disease. The only two things I'd want to correct in the article would be (a) to find out if he did have Prostate Cancer and (b) that he died of GBS. The only other thing I'd change is I would bring back my reference to Evanier's blog (which was deleted on revert), but I wouldn't put the actual claim about the vaccine in the text of the GBS itself. In fact, I didn't actually write that, the only place the claim appeared was in the quote text in the reference. Beyond that I'd be happy. I do think the blog entry should be sourced since other references to that blog are sourced and it would be hypocritical not to source it unless you want to challenge all the other sources in that article. I simply don't think Evanier had any "hidden agenda" in his post other than to correct a cause of death. JRT (talk) 23:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Mark Evanier is certainly a reliable source in several fields and a person for whom I have an enormous amount of respect. I take him at his word that he indeed verified that the email was from a family member and by extension that a family member would know the cause of death. But that said I see no reason to include the flu-vaccine claim in the article. If a prominent scientist were killed in an auto accident, we wouldn't generally need to include the make, model, and colour of the other car. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Well put; I myself have quoted Evanier on comics history many times, and find him a knowledgable and engaging host of comics panels at conventions. But we can't cite his blog for medical information. He's not even quoting a medical expert stating concretely that the vaccine killed Plastino, but a biased, non-disinterested family member who is not a medical expert and who stands to gain by disseminating a claim that would make the vaccine makers and medical personnel liable. And in concurrence with Andrew Lenahan, is a cause of death even particularly necessary when we're talking about a 91-year-old?
No one mentioned anything about Evanier having an "agenda," but the cited item certainly does mention his dissatisfaction with his own experiences with Wikipedia, so I wouldn't necessarily call him objective.
RE "to find out if he did have Prostate Cancer" — why does JRT refuse to read Maryann Plastino's own quote to the New York Post a month before Plastino's death that, yes, Plastino had prostate cancer. It's right in the footnotes, for heaven's sake.
And P.S to JRT: Please stop using words like "rant". And your comments about my "ego" and "hostility" are uncivil. All I see is a host of editors here and on other pages in agreement that Evanier's blog is not a reliable source for the killer-vaccine claim. So I'm not sure who's the one being unreasonable here. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Evanier's dissatisfaction with WP seems more like frustration. Criticism of WP doesn't imply he's biased against it, or that he was trying to start a protest, just a correction. In fact, if he's considered a bad unobjective source, he shouldn't be quoted elsewhere in the same article. I did not "refuse" to read the source, as I have reviewed the sources better you are correct about the prostate cancer (unless MaryAnn is trying to recant that statement or was misquoted), and I have already admitted I jumped the gun--while there is some concern about vaccines and GBS it's not likely to be provable cause of death unless it's on their death certificate. But as far as "civility" goes, I'm sorry, I think you deserve some criticism for being antagonistic. I doubt this would have escalated to this state if you had been a little more welcoming, not immediate reverted an edit, and instantly assuming that there was a deliberate attempt to bias the article. In fact, if one of these other uses brought up the same point as articulately as they've done here, there probably wouldn't have been an issue here. JRT (talk) 01:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
And as far as "ego" goes, I was making a statement when two people get into a WP edit war, it's mostly a battle of individual egos, so I'm making fun of myself here as well, which is why when this comes up I always try to solicit others to review and break the ties. JRT (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
There are two things here. I agree it doesn't matter who is editing the article in terms of protecting it, but that's beside my point (you'd note I never said anything about the protection) which is the second thing we shouldn't forget about. Family and friends of the subject is likely a select group of people at least some of who would be easily identifiable. Tag teaming a wikipedia article would often be seen in a negative way and therefore accusing identifiable living people of it should not be done with out some evidence they are actually involved for WP:BLP reasons. This is even more so when we have no evidence of any involvement of said people in editing wikipedia at all (which from what I can tell, is the case here). And in a case like this where as I've emphasised, there is good reason to think there would be plenty of people who should not be called 'family and friends' who may come to edit. Just because we aren't happy about something that's going on or other stuff that people have done is no excuse to accuse those people of involvement in something related with no evidence. The fact is doesn't matter is a reason not to make such accusations in the first place. It doesn't mean we should ignore it when such accusations are made. Nil Einne (talk) 12:05, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
That was my biggest objection to the whole thing. It was being accused of both being a family member--I am not, I simply read Evanier's blog regularly--and engaging in "Fringe Science". When my edit was rejected for that reason, I looked up GBS, and discovered that at least one time it has been linked to a vaccine, and it sounds like a legitimate concern. Obviously I was wrong and it's inconclusive, though there does seem to be enough caution regarding GBS to have some warnings. But also, the simple quote may not have enough information--perhaps the family meant to say he died due to complications from it and it didn't come out clearly in the quote. But Tenebrae instantly took an accusatory tone, saying "This evident desire to use Wikipedia to help the family score a big lawsuit settlement is shameful.", as well as assuming this was some coordinated effort. That's actually a potentially libelous statement since nothing in that source says anything about a lawsuit or the like. If the tone of the discussion had been kept on the civility levels that have occurred here, I doubt we'd even be talking about it. Sometimes, being nice is important in these discussions. JRT (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, a lot of people try to use Wikipedia to promote FRINGE ideas, and there are lots of places where one can lookup information that is totally bogus. The cause of death of the individual (last time I looked) is not known. The fact that someone might think that a vaccine was involved is irrelevant and cannot be used as the basis to assert the cause of death. There is no reason for an article to note what uninformed people think about the cause of death. Johnuniq (talk) 09:18, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

United Russia[edit]

It appears this article has been vandalized by user User:78.56.70.222, who has no other edits than to vandalize this page. I have not done many vandal reports, but I think the page should be protected, with what is going on in Russia/Ukraine right now (not that I support UR, but wiki is not the place to vandalize the pages of parties you don't like)--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 21:11, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that was certainly vandalism. Thank you for reverting it, Bellerophon, and your request for protection makes sense. Even though the IP has only made one edit, I've given them a strongly worded warning on their talkpage, because of the nature of the vandalism, and semiprotected the article for a few days. For another time, it's generally best to request protection on WP:RFPP. I understand these boards are a labyrinth! Thank you very much for reporting. Bishonen | talk 21:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC).
Bishonen Hi, the user returned with some disruptive, POV wikilinking here. I referred them to AIV and they've been temp blocked for 36 hours. I've also asked that the Ukranian national anthem article (Shche ne vmerla Ukraina) be protected for 24-48 hours, although I dunno if that will fly since there have only been two recent disruptions. My thinking was, however, that the recent political situation in the Ukraine makes the article a high profile target. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, current events make that article too an obvious vandalism magnet. Semiprotected for four days. Bishonen | talk 22:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC).

Legal threats and insults[edit]

User: JohnRTroy twice today has accused me of libel, and for the last several days has been using insulting language, which I have tried to let roll off my back. But with two legal threats in one day, here and here, I think it's necessary for me to task admin to take a look and seeing if his behavior is appropriate.

He is already the focus of an ANI, above, for advocating fringe science, which he since seems to have back away, after User:Atama warned him about about adding original research to Wikipedia [41] and User:Miniapolis protected the page he was editing, Al Plastino, for a week. Redlink editors, some evidently connected as friends/familky with the subject's daughter, had been trying to add a fringe claim about a vaccine — with this editor in one case misrepresenting the CDC [42] and in another claiming, "If you read enough, there is a link to vaccinations causing GBS. This is not 'fringe science'." [43]

He's called me "hostile" [44], again "hostile" [45], "antagonistic" [46], "hostile" and "passive-aggressive rudeness" [47] (evidently since I don't name-call, I'm being "passive-aggressive"), and "hostility" [48].

These may not be curse-word insults, but they are consistent and they have gone on for days without my saying anything. He's not stopping. He's just continued and continued to bait me and poke me in the chest, and I won't respond in kind. But he has to stop. I myself lost my temper elsewhere in early February and paid the price, a one-day suspension ... my only such block in more than 8 1/2 years. My normative behavior can be inferred here. I admitted I was wrong and did my time. Now I'm on the receiving end, and being call libelous to boot. I ask for help. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I would ask those involved to review all of the correspondence between us on this very page, the WP Comics Talk page, and the article in question. My main points were I found this user's tone insulting when making comments--and in part, my comments are to ask him to be a little more civil in his criticism according to WP:Civility. I will agree with what this board says, but I am disappointed that over the weekend I have been part of two Administrative actions. My concern is that others will see this and it will reflect on WP badly.
Regarding the "Fringe Theories", I've been attempting to find out if there is a legitimate link between the viruses and I think the assumption or accusation of this was a little bit insulting, as there are certain complications that can occur. Ultimately, I think this is an over-reaction. JRT (talk) 21:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither "That's actually a potentially libelous statement" nor "Made a near-libelous statement regarding the family of Al Plastino, implying they were trying to get ammunition for a lawsuit" is a legal threat in he sense of WP:NLT. Not in my view at least. DES (talk) 21:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
That said, it is best to avoid the term "libel" or things near it in discussing the actions of other wikipedia editors if at all possible, as it can be takenm as a legal threat. DES (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree with both of DESiegel's points; no legal threats have been made, but try not to bring up "libel" at all when referencing other editors since it just escalates matters and can lead to misunderstandings.
As to the claimed civility breaches, I see Tenebrae accusing JohnRTroy of being uncivil, and JohnRTroy accusing Tenebrae of being uncivil. Why don't you both try this: ignore each others' perceived incivility. If you do that, it will magically vanish. JohnRTroy, if Tenebrae says something that you think is rude when you are debating a point, ignore it. Otherwise your accusation of rudeness will be seen as hostility. Tenebrae, try the same, if JohnRTroy calls you "hostile" or "passive-aggressive", then pretend those words aren't there, because they don't affect the argument in any way. What matters is what guidelines and policies are best adhered to, and what common ground can be found, and frankly nobody is going to care if one person thinks the other is rude (as long as it doesn't escalate into personal attack territory and so far everything has fallen far short of that). Hostility tends to fall into a feedback loop, where one person says "you insulted me", the other says "I'm insulted that you think I'm being insulting" and so on. It's pointless, and doesn't advance either of your positions. -- Atama 21:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree with this and will no longer make any comments involving that user in this instance. Furthermore, I will refrain from making any more edits in the original disputed article in question and will also end all comments regarding this dispute. JRT (talk) 21:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
It appears the content dispute involved is over the cause of death of comic book writer Al Plastino. In particular this blog says that many news sources got it wrong by saying that he died from prostate cancer and that Wikipedia therefore got it wrong by repeating those news sources. At the time of the blog being published the article did not actually say that was the cause of death, but merely stated that he was suffering from prostate cancer before he died. Strictly speaking based on Wikipedia's rules we should just repeat the allegedly false information published in reliable sources (that he died from prostate cancer), but I am somewhat partial to the way the article is now, which is left ambiguous, as an IAR thing since it is a sensitive issue and we have some reason to doubt the mainstream press. CorporateM (Talk) 22:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Calling someone a child molester[edit]

MOVED TO DIFFERENT NOTICEBOARD
Issue referred to WP:BLP/N. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:08, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moved to WP:BLP/N: LFaraone 22:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk page access revocation?[edit]

TALK PAGE ACCESS REVOKED
Euryalus took away the ability of HRA1924 to edit own talk page. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 21:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can some uninvolved admin please consider the merits of permitting continued talk page access to the currently-blocked HRA1924 (talk · contribs). Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Why are you (Sitush) posting on the page? I suggest Sitush unwatch the page and HRA1924 refrain from pinging Sitush again. There is, depending on one's point of a view, either a) legal threat or b) ridiculous nonsense on the page about getting the Indian government to force Indian ISPs to block Wikipedia access. Probably worth a look if you're inclined (and have a block button). NE Ent 22:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
You've kind of answered your own query: they pinged me and the issue is WP:NLT. If you'd faced this crap for as long as I have, you'd perhaps understand why I am fed up of it. - Sitush (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, so the proper response is "don't ping Sitush" anymore and "revert your legal threat," not removing talk page access. (If anyone wants to squabble whether or not they've faced more crap, I'd suggest User_talk:NE Ent to spare the rest of the ANI watchers having a boring, pointless discussion churning ANI). NE Ent 00:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I suspect that you are not familiar with what has gone on. Try this for the very tip of the iceberg - a thread that itself resulted in the current block & has several people mentioning NLT. They've done it before and now they're doing it again. How much rope? Agreed, uninvolvedf people will not be familiar but uninvolved admins will presumably take a bit of care to at least check out some of the background before making a decision. - Sitush (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
HRA1924 denies "explicit" legal threats but their posts repeatedly imply legal action. They have also made clear they don't feel bound by Wikipedia's terms of use. Further, they have used the talkpage for personal attacks including calling another editor a criminal.
Editors, including me, have tried to address individual talkpage questions but regrettably not to their satisfaction. I am now concerned that we are a) largely relitigating the ANI thread linked by Sitush above, and b) straying into a legal discussion that should be something for the user to raise off-wiki with the WMF.
However I share NE Ent's general reluctance to block talkpage access - this is not a troll, it is someone pursuing a grievance that would be better taken up elsewhere. Absent any other views I propose at this point: declining the current unblock request, warning against personal attacks and implied legal threats and again urging the editor to correspond directly with the WMF and/or await their response. Euryalus (talk) 01:46, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
They have been warned about the attacks and implicit legal threats for many months now. What makes you think that they will change? They've appealed to the WMF, to OTRS and umpteen other places and are displaying a distinct WP:IDHT tendency which is sort of reflected in the closing comments of the RFM linked to in the prior ANI thread. I'm not getting into the semantics of trolling but this is an organisation that only pays lip-service to our policies when it suits them and won't let it drop on-wiki. How many more warnings and advisories? - Sitush (talk) 01:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC) Struck a bit: I forgot the crazy rule about RFM being privileged, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 01:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
HRA is inappropriately wikilawyering all over their talk page. TPA should be cut off, we're not here to coddle malcontents, we're here to build an encyclopedia. Shut them down and let's get on with it. (And those who spend the vast majority of their time posting on noticeboards in favor of folks like this should also go and edit articles. Wikipedia is not a model community or a fucking debating society. Those "editors" who don't in some way improve the encyclopedia are freeloaders and need to start pulling their weight.) BMK (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
A re-reading of the history, and the editor's latest post have convinced me. Striking the previous, and have blocked talkpage access per WP:NLT and WP:NPA. - Euryalus (talk) 03:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Agree with User:Euryalus that a talk page ban is needed. This user just won't take no for an answer. It started out as an issue about India Against Corruption. The legalistic complaints will go on forever so long as we keep listening. The underlying case was heard in several places and it appears to have no merit (at least, he can't provide sources to justify his position). EdJohnston (talk) 18:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dalton761 disruptive editing of Logan Henderson[edit]

VANDAL WARNED
Hasn't edited since the warning. If vandalism resumes, suggest it be reported at WP:AIV. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dalton761 (User talk:Dalton761) has begun his/her Wikipedia career with three disruptive edits to Logan Henderson. We need to prevent further disruption. This is my first time down this path for any disruptive new editor, so I hope I'm doing it right. —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

They appear to have stopped, but I've posted a vandalism warning on their talk page. If they resume, this will escalate to a block. In passing, there's a noticeboard for vandalism reports like this - WP:AIV - where you can get a swift(er) response than here. Euryalus (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:Featured picture candidates[edit]

As you may know, FPC is the only featured content process to have a minimum number of reviewers required in a relatively short period of time - 5 supports in 10 days (and a supermajority of consensus in its favour) is required. Unfortunately, like all of Wikipedia, it's prone to the occasional lulls, and could use more reviewers during them, and this is currently one of those lulls. Any help would be appreciated. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden - I'm not sure this is the problem that you're making it out to be. Images that get promoted generally have no problem getting the requisite five votes, or even more than that, in the allotted time. I look at that page every few days, and for the most part the images that only have one or two votes on them after five or six days are ones that I would oppose. Instead of opposing them, I don't comment at all, which (since there is a minimum support threshold) is a polite way of achieving the same outcome. Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 16:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Help wanted[edit]

A user is utterly determined to slavishly follow the rules by insisting on a CSD tag on Lookout Mountain Air Force Station/Draft as a test page, despite having been told that it is NOT a test page but text submitted via OTRS by a veteran who is not computer savvy.

Having been told it's not my text, and not a test page (because, you know, I have been here long enough not to need test pages), he still insists that I may not remove the tag. Because we must never under any circumstances ignore any rule, however fatuous the circumstances.

So, someone please remove the tag for me because it's not a test page and this user is adamant that the CSD Test tag may not be removed by me because technically I created the article (even though it's not my text and trhe CSD criterion is blatantly wrong). Guy (Help!) 10:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't drafts be created in either the draft namespace or the user space? Viriditas (talk) 10:13, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I didn't even know the Draft namespace existed until recently! I do not care at all where it goes, only that we have the text as provided by a reader who took the trouble to email us to try to help improve the encyclopaedia. Feel free to move it anywhere you think appropriate. Guy (Help!) 10:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
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