Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835

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Ihardlythinkso blanking articles in order to make a point[edit]

Clearly no consensus for blocking, thread is now generating heat rather than light. Black Kite (talk) 09:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Ihardlythinkso has been blanking and disrupting articles he has contributed to in order to make a point. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]

A number of editors have discussed this issue with him, but he hasn't stopped. I brought it up on his talk page, here, and got quite a response back. His posts to other users, such as Quale, have recently been way over the NPA line.

His response to me was, frankly, even worse.

I think a block for disruption and personal attacks is, unfortunately, warranted in order to prevent this sort of editing from continuing.   — Jess· Δ 00:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Edit summaries like this [9] show he is trying to WP:OWN the article (or at least his contributions), but my guess it is spite more than anything. He can be blunt, but he isn't dumb and he knows he can't just remove his contributions to the articles. The third pillar makes that abundantly clear, as does the CC-BY-SA license he released the contribs under. He and I have bumped heads a few times, so I'm not inclined to get involved with dishing out sanctions myself, but an explanation from him is certainly due. Dennis Brown |  | WER 00:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
"Blanking articles" is what vandals do, and I am no vandal. I have three (3) orthochess articles to my name, and any blanking was in error and corrected by me already. I did remove content contributions made by me in those three. On Elephant Gambit and Reti Opening, I removed my copyedits. (I have my own reasons, they have nothing to do with "proving a point", or "creating disruption", so you have no basis to assign those as intention as you have -- that's false, and springs from bad-faith. What readers of this ANI don't know and can't empathize with, is the way I've been treated by editors like yourself, User:MaxBrowne, User:ChessplayerLev (but that was a long time ago, but he never apologized for the bogus ANI and falsifications made then and attempt to get me blocked or banned, as you are doing), all supported indirectly by defacto project lead User:Quale, who has only disparaging accuses and false blames for me, and compliments to those who would attack and attempt to smear. (It's not very pleasant. There is only so much unfair treatment and bullying incivilities a person can take. That limit was pushed over me recently.) I won't be editing orthochess articles any more, as a result, I won't be able to return to project articles I've touched, to touch them again after having improved my editing skills. (Articles I've copyedited when I began here freak me out, how embarassingly poor my writing editing skills were then, and I've drawn the conclusion my skills will probably continue to increase over time, to the point where edits I think I'm pround of today will make me cringe in embarrassment again in future when I see them. I don't want those edits hanging around as permanent monuments to my mediocre skill as editor at that time. I can't return to ProjChess due to chronic maltreatment and prejudice by Quale to disparage me, and compliment those who would attack me. All of that is true for anyone doing the research. But ANIs are burning stakes, aren't they. (No time for digging the truth. Hang'em high!) I believe this ANI is nothing but the OP's assertion of continued conflict-dominance clashes with me at article Antichess and article Checkmate, and if true, a means to harass and misuse process. (Why does he care? No reason other than that. Oneupmanship. Need to assert superiority over another editor he's been in dispute with.)

The issue here is whether an editor has the right or not to remove their own copyedits from an article. If it can be done without disturbing other editors' contributions, then why should it be denied? Edit reverts are the same thing: an editor has changed their mind on leaving her/his edit in the article. So I have changed my mind on Elephant Gambit and Reti Opening. I have my reasons, they have been partially explained -- enough to know accusations of valdalism are wholly untrue and bad-faith by an editor who I've had content clashes with. p.s. In each case of clashes with the OP, I've withdrawn from said Talks to avoid drama with him. He's too aggressive and unstoppable IMO, and objective discussion isn't in the cards with him -- only forcing his way, and "winning". I've avoided him therefore, now he comes to my Talk to unfairly accuse, and open this ANI as further contesting with me for whatever motive. I suspect the motive has nothing to do with the health of the encyclopedia, but rather interpersonal conflict he revels in. I'd like someone to tell him to leave me be. I've loved Wikipedia and contributing to orthodox chess articles. But the hostility, false blames, attempts to smear and defame, have made the "collaborative editing environment" a joke of inhospitable abusiveness in my perspective. (Just symptomatic of the wider rampant incivilities and lies told and smears conducted against editors generally -- a civility problem WP has no answer for, but has become the encrusted cultural fact here long before I signed up as editor. I simply don't want to be a part of it.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Dennis Brown's speculation of "ownership" is not correct. I wanted to remove my copyedits, and the example where User:MaxBrowne was excused for doing this at Chess.com by another editor, that he had the right to do so, was basis for me to believe or offer, that I have a right to undo my edits if I want. Nothing more. I have no desire to break any rule.
Myself, I am not the slightest bit convinced of the sincerity of your argument. But putting that aside and responding to your question, there is no rule against reverting your copyedits. However, once you make an edit here, you release your contributions to CC-BY-SA and have no right to deny the restoration of those very same edits. Others clearly feel the content is beneficial to the article. You have no right to remove it without building a consensus for removal. Resolute 01:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
My take on this is that Ihardlythinkso is always sincere. I'm not saying that he is always right. Cardamon (talk) 22:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, thanks for that answer. To clarify, I didn't assert at any time I had right to deny restoration. (I didn't know.) I asked an editor to not restore, that I preferred no restoration (and explained why). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
At least twice you told editors to not revert a revert, with one of them telling the editor to go read policy and the other telling the editor they were in violation of policy. [10] and [11] So you were asserting that readding the material was against policy. GB fan 01:58, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
That's misleading. I was telling that editor that his revert of my revert was out-of-order. (The edit-warring template itself says to not revert a second time, "even if you believe you are right".) That discussion issue was over BRD versus BRRD, and whether his or my revert was the "B". So that is entirely a different issue than if I do or don't have right to deny (ultimate) restoration. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
This is classic narcissist / Diva behaviour. When Kkj11210 (talk · contribs), a mature and polite editor, tried to discuss the blanking of the chess articles, IHTS immediately launched into a bullying ad hominem based on KJ's youth. I am also fed up with having my name constantly brought up in the process of attacking other editors over incidents that had nothing to do with me. I honestly have tried to have as little as possible to do with this editor lately, but his recent editing has been extremely disruptive. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Cesspool stuff, MaxBrowne. (As long as you feel free coming to the ANI cesspool to accuse of narcissism and disingenuousness, according to your need to falsely accuse and smear, do I in turn get to tell you that your behavior is that of an unethical cheat? Underhanded sleaziness? Do you want to throw more insults and buy the house some popcorn? This is your element, isn't it? Cesspool. Mud. Happy as a pig in mud you are!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Please take a break. After a day or two think about whether you want to continue editing here, and imagine how much more pleasant it would be if you and other editors could be nice to each other. Jehochman Talk 02:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, he's taking a break whether he wanted to or not, as the above came after my having warned him not to continue with personal attacks; accordingly I've blocked Ihardlythinkso for 24 hours. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about what happened in discussions concerning the Chess articles in the past, but I can only give my views regarding what I've observed in the last few days. From my take on the issue, it looks like user Ihardlythinkso believes that he has been subject to personal attacks in the past and that a number of editors are against his good-faith efforts to improve Chess-related articles. In response, he has been removing his early (and apparently bad-quality) additions while believing that such removals are beneficial to the articles. I didn't accuse him of WP:OWN since I was being WP:CIVIL, but I do believe that he was acting without awareness of WP:OWN. After the expiration of the block, I think that a discussion attempting to put behind past events, as well as a good dose of WP:AGF, will be adequate to resolve the conflict. KJ click here 05:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso has been editing for far too long and been embroiled in enough disputes to plead ignorance of WP:OWN or do edits like this. --NeilN talk to me 14:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
His responses on his talk page to my trying to explain why he was blocked are disturbing. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Who's conduct I think is "disturbing" is yours, Bushranger. (Turning good-faith Qs of you, instead of according to your responsibilities re WP:ADMINACCT, into some kind of lecturing, shaming, baiting fest.) You obfuscated in every conceivable way and for as long as you could, to dodge answering two simple and clear Qs. (Until I had no choice but to give up.) Now you attempt to take credit for something not due you. I call that dishonest. You really take the cake. But somehow I think you don't care. (Is that because you're admin and see yourself invulnerable? My third Q also went unanswered: What are your recall parameters?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Your questions regarding the block were answered immediately; whether you overlooked them accidentally or otherwise is something I cannot help. What you call "lecturing, shaming, baiting" was an attempt to point out how your conduct is unacceptable for a Wikipedia contributor; again, if you refuse to listen I cannot help that. As for recall parameters, they involve something that you have proven incapable of extending: good faith. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
That makes no sense. (If my Q about the block was answered immediately, then why didn't you say so when I continued to ask the same Q several times, and complain to you that I'd not received any answer from you? Your RfA Opposes pointed out sarcasm and/or a pattern of your giving "silent responses", in the form of a complaint in that RfA about your behavior. I see now you haven't lifted even a little finger to make any corrective changes in that behavior, based just on what you've said above. Not good.) You have no right to lecture me, attempt to shame, condescend me at my Talk, when I was merely trying to get understanding of your POV for the block. You think you have the right to soapbox and lecture me regarding civil behavior? Boo to that. If we had a forum to discuss, and a moderator to keep our discussion reasonable, I can perhaps name at least a half dozen personal attacks and personal slights you made at my Talk. You have no right to do that to a good-faith editor trying to get basic info from you about the block you executed. That's bullying behavior, and abusive as well. I think you are not fit to be an admin.) About IDHT, sorry but my view is a competing one. It's you that consistently displayed IDHT, not me. And about your good-faith criticisms, just like the block you made, how can I appeal or address, when I don't even know what the hell it is you're talking about and your issues of concern have never been presented to me in any comprehensible or digestible way? In any event, though I'd love to discuss that with you, that will be impossible, because I'd require as mentioned a space to do it in, plus a moderator to regulate your manipulative and obfuscating communications. Another reason it won't happen too, is that the topic that caused the ANI was Mann jess's efforts to warn me from reverting my edits from articles, and when I didn't heed his warning, he immediately opened this ANI for purpose to stop said reverts. Now in manipulative fashion you seem to be re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI to some never-defined "bad-faith" issue of your concern. Sorry but I was having no luck even getting a square answer from you about the specific reason you blocked me, let alone all of the abuse you have decided amongst yourself that I must suffer from your mouth. Does not compute. Another reason no discussion of your issues will be conducted, not only because of the lack of feature here to provide a space for said discussion, and a moderator to keep orderly, but I'm finding it personally soiling to have any contact or interfaces with you whatever. That said, I wish you would get the fuck off my back and stop your irrational baits. I've already told you I think you're a disgrace as an admin; you aren't changing my opinion by your further lectures and condescensions. What do you hope to gain here? (Get me riled so I say something off-the-cuff whereby you have another crack at blocking me? For a longer duration?) Pathetic. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Just to be clear: you got a specific answer after you asked what the specific PA you had been blocked for was, where I said "you posted this over an hour after you were warned", with "this" being linked to your specific post that caused the block; and it was made within an hour after you requested an explanation. I find it honestly perplexing that you're accusing me of "re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI" when my comment regarding good faith was in direct answer to your question. I have answered your questions clearly and concisely, only not answering them promptly when the questions were accompanied by (yet another set of) personal attacks against other editors. However, your conduct in response, both on your talk page and here, has been a sea of invective and personal attacks, including but not limited to comparing me to Mexican immigrant traffickers. From your pattern of commentary it's clear that you immediately assumed bad faith on my part, and decided to remain in that position regardless of any attempted explanation, instead deciding that any attempts at speaking plainly and clearly about the issue must be abuse, and progressively escalating invective in response to each attempt to explain the situation - and its consequences for you. Accordingly, I regret to say I can provide no further assistiance in trying to help you to remain a productive member of the Wikipedia community, which is what I have been trying to do all along, and instead will leave you with the same advice I gave another editor below on this page: when you find yourself in a hole, continuing to dig can only have one result. - The Bushranger One ping only 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Bushranger, I put in good-faith effort to learn the specifics of my block with you, and it was impossible to get any answers from you (you wouldn't give them, only lectures, condesensions, insults, attacks). At that point I gave up trying to communicate with you on the normal reasonable basis I give to everyone equally out of respect, until an editor shows me by their behavior and responses that I can on longer do that in good-faith. (In other words, you lost good-faith from me back at my Talk. I'm no longer entertaining anything you write to my attention with the usual good-faith care I give any and all editors. You lost that respect a long time ago, and I told you specifically the same thing on my Talk a long time ago. Now you are parading a paragraph to my attention, as though I care, and as though a communication link of question/response exists between us in good-faith, which it doesn't, and hasn't for some time. I've wasted enough time trying in good-faith with you. You didn't even give me the courtesy to understand the specifics of my block, before appeal time expired. That should have been priority with you, after blocking someone. Now you give excuses that you were busy or something, but that is BS Bushranger -- you are admin, and if you make a block, you should address the blockee if he is asking to understand for what exactly, when she/he asks. So I'm not buying your "I was busy". That is completely inexcusable given the power of block and role as admin at WP:ADMINACCT. The possibility of one-to-one communication with you broke down totally at my Talk as mentioned, and any pretense to others on this board that a conversation is still going on, or can go on between us over specifics of the block, or related Q/A, is just not the case. I've told you numerous times already that I wouldn't entertain any interface with you again, unless there's a moderator to control discussion, and a place to conduct said discussion. And you accuse me of IDHT???? I'm not interested in anything you have to say or accuse, without a moderator and a discussion room, Bushranger. I've found your argument & discussion style to be exceedingly manipulative and obfuscating, and I won't attempt to deal with that again, on my own. Now I've told you that perhaps more than a few times. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
"Busy or something"? "I was busy"? That proves that either you absolutely did not read my comment or are deliberately ignoring it, as I made no such statements and implied no such thing. At all. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • So, while "classic narcissist / Diva behaviour" is just calling a spade a spade (as claimed on IHTS's talk page), "Cesspool stuff." is a personal attack warranting a block? Is this one of those Wikipedia April Fools' Day things? NE Ent 09:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • "Cesspool stuff" was not a personal attack. However calling somebody "an unethical cheat" who is engaging in "underhanded sleaziness" is, and when the person making those statements has previously been warned that any further personal attacks will result in a block, they get blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I did not directly call MaxBrowne those names. I was being rhetorical. He personally attacked me with "classic narcissist", which is pretty vicious and lewd and no editor should have to endure such an attack as that, and I came back to him with, essentially an argument: is that what he wants to do here? call names? does he want a name-calling fest? like me calling him [those names]? is that what he wants? I was clearly trying to shame him for opening up name-calling, since it isn't logical, it isn't appropriate, it isn't helpful, in descends to the lowest-common denominator. So just like Basalisk did on my Talk, you pick up on that and use it as an excuse to block based on a civility infraction. His attack was clear, mine reply was not a direct attack, it was rhetorical, I could have said "do I get to call you Frankenstein's butt now?" or any other thing, it didn't really matter. I did not want to PA him, he clearly wanted (and did) PA me. (That said, why didn't you warn him? If you had warned him, perhaps I wouldn't have needed to throw out the rhetorical stuff to try an deter him. But you didn't warn him. You warned me. And I did not see your warning, I was unaware of it because I was busy responding to the ANI, and not going to my Talk.) The fact that you excused MaxBrowne from the PA "classic narcissist" by telling me on omy Talk that it wasn't a PA because he was just calling a "spade a spade", is the same as you making the same PA against me, Mr. Administrator, and that is not only unbecoming but I think is de-sysop worthy, since you should and do know better than that. But you likely won't be de-sysop'd for that, since admins seldom lose their tools and you know that. So you take pot shots at me by reinforcing the "classic narcissism" PA, because you can get away with it. That's just plain abuse. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Come on NE Ent, don't employ tunnel vision over this. There are plenty of diffs provided in this discussion of personal attacks from IHTS, from both before and after the warning, and frankly it's not the first time this guy has sailed close to a WP:NPA block [12] Basalisk inspect damageberate 10:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Basalisk, ever since I criticized the editor who was your nominator at your successful RfA, you have gone out of your way to insert yourself in my wiki-life, and try and trick and trap me into a block. (For example, it is a fact that an admin called me a "mother-fucking asshole" in an Email, and upon knowing that, you went to my Talk and asked for the Email to be revealed at my Talk, knowing full well had I done that, it would have been an outing and an immediate sanction imposed on me.) I can diff several other of your posts where you bogusly threatened me at my Talk, and other editors came to my defense and chased you away. But you're still out to block me, or see me blocked. I call that carrying a long-term grudge, and is unbecoming of admin. You should self-evaluate better, Basalisk. You won't drop your stick. But tell you what, I'm willing to give you something and make you go away. I'm willing to commit [Eric could do this himself if he wanted, he doesn't want, I don't blame him] to never using a curse word at anyone ever again. [E.g. "fucker".] Just like Eric, when I've used curse words, they are by choice, not because I'm a lunatic madman not in control of my mouth. The challenge will be, how to get my meaning across as effectively, when curse words are short and succinct, whereas telling someone the same thing in more tea cerimony style is less impacting and "artful". But if it would make you happy, I'll promise to never use another curse word on the WP. Will that make you happy? [And BTW, I don't know why the WP software doesn't already screen for curse words, and replace them with "****" etc., like dating sites do!?!? Simple!]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Well to be honest, I don't know anything about dating sites, but I imagine the wiki software doesn't bowdlerise profanities so that they can be included in articles for encyclopaedic purposes. Generally speaking the whole system is designed assuming that the people using it will act like adults. Diff away if it pleases you, though characterising a threat as "bogus" strikes me as a category error. I'm not trying to get you blocked IHTS. That's what you say of everyone who disagrees with you; they're all a bunch of fuckers trying to get you blocked. Just take a break from this and take it on the chin. Basalisk inspect damageberate 11:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Well I have some software background, and a table of article names could be exempted in the software to accomodate exceptions, that is all design-requirements stuff easily done. Adults swear Basalisk, more than children, so you got that reversed. Providing diffs isn't my entertainment or desire, Basalisk, telling you I can do that is a signal to you that you shouldn't challenge me on what I asserted, because I can back up what I say. (Your threat was entirely bogus and I can prove it.) I do not say about everyone that they are trying to get me blocked, that's a category overgeneralization, in fact I think I've said that of extremely few editors in reality. (But I know throwing BS overgeneralizations around at the ANI is consistent with the cesspool arguments and mud slung that is the cultural norm here, so you're fitting in real good with that. To me I'd be ashamed, but you and many others just love it. It's so tacky.) I don't know what you're advising me to do ("take a break", "take it on the chin"), Basalisk, I really don't. It was not my idea to open this ANI which Mann jess opened to stop reversions of edits at articles I've edited, turns out he's wrong about it, it was permissable to undo copyedits I've made to articles. I have no idea what you mean, and I don't seek your councel either, you just turned down a good-faith offer to get to leave me alone, I don't know how to make you leave me alone, quit calling me a child, I think you are the immature one, Basalisk. What will make you go away? Did you want to discuss Kevin Gorman here? This dialogue and cesspool tangents are abusive shit, and if you revel in it, you revel in shit. And I just can't fucking respect people who do that, you know. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Back to the issue at hand, Ihardlythinkso as was explained to you above you can not remove content from WP just because you added it, specially claiming things like "I created this article so should have a right to delete it (User:MaxBrowne once deleted Chess.com, and he as granted permission to do so, since he was author of that article", "Undid revision 601789037 by Kkj11210 (talk) a high school student reverts me??", "I am author, I withdraw this article". Incidentally on March 29th you breached WP:3RR on at least three articles (Veniamin Sozin, Fischer–Spassky (1992 match), Paris Defence) and should count yourself lucky you didn't get a long block for that alone. Your lack of civility only adds insult to injury and you should consider stopping while you are ahead. Just drop it, calm down and resume your editing in a few days with a cooler head. Regards. Gaba (talk) 12:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Those initial reverts were mistaken and repaired, and those initial editsums were written hastily in span of only a few minutes during a windown of time that was indeed emotionally depressing to me. I have already explained this. I have a cooler head now, but some things remain the same, and this venue isn't really appropriate to discuss it. It's my understanding going forward that it is resolved that an editor may remove their edits from an article if they want. (Not OWN, and not barring restoration by another editor feeling differently about the value of the edits to the quality of the article. [That said, I'd like to point out that User:Mann jesse's restorations were not based on anything related to article quality, he has no interest or investment in said articles, he as only restored to counter reversion by an editor he feels in completition with based on previous content disputes where he also tried to force his way with edit-warring and IDHT discussions and I objected. So he forced his dominance where he can. This is interpersonal conflict in action, and nothing about article quality. He has no investment or care about said articles, he has only tracked my actions because of a need to prove dominance. Or claim I am a vandal. I am not a vandal, I've reverted my own edits, not other editors'. I explained I have complex reasons for doing so, and none of them are what has been accused.) You should understand that there is never incivility from me that some editor did not initiate by their own incivility, and that there are perhaps 1000s of ways to be uncivil than using "bad words", and those forms of incivility are tremendoudly worse in my book than any bad words could be, since they enter unethical areas that bad words simply don't have access to. I don't think this is a forum to discuss individual diffs of incivility and their context with other diffs, and evaluation of what civility really is, and the limits of policy to define and capture it, and the inequitable enforcement by whim from administrators that results. What is the further purpose of this ANI, and Gaba, I respect what you are saying, but what practically do you want from me, or is this ANI just to chastise endlessly over a dead event that lasted only a few mintues? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
"You should understand that there is never incivility from me that some editor did not initiate by their own incivility" - this frequently repeated claim by IHTS is patently untrue. Here a polite request to discuss an edit is met with "give me a fucking break" and accusations of "wikilawyering" and "edit warring". And of course this edit summary is the very definition of an ad hominem. Not an "accusation", but a completely accurate description. Want more diffs? No, didn't think so. But they're there for anyone who cares to look. There are *many* examples of IHTS initiating incivility in his editing history, most recently against Resolute (talk · contribs) who attempted to offer constructive criticism and was met with a torrent of abuse. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, those were an emotional few minutes for me, I felt the editor was edit-warring, and that provoked me to some degree, but you're right overall, the incivilities were mine there, and they weren't justified. But that editor and I were able to discuss just fine, after those emotional minutes of mine. I'm not a perfect robot, and never claimed to be, but it is true that there are extremely few unproviked incivilities from me in my three or so year history. This incident was an extremely complex emotionally challenging time for me, and you found one of extremely few instances. To attempt to take that and generalize or characterize me as misrepresenting myself, is a dirty underhanded trick, MaxBrowne. And you are also the editor how came here and called me "classic narcissist" unprovoked. In our past history you have proven to me that your behavior is one of the most despicabe I've ever experienced from an editor, and you know tha we are enemies because of that history. So you come here as a foe to throw mud and mischaracterize and join a lynch party. Your "torrent of abuse" hyperbole is just that. I tend to think exaggeration and distortion are forms of lies and dishonesty, but apparently you don't. You seem to have gotten away with your "classic narcisst" personal attack without a block, but instead baiting me into a response where an administraor unaccountably decided to block me and not you. Has this emboldened you perhaps, MaxBrowne? And aren't you lucky that readers to this ANI probably have no interest to discover your abusive demeaning bad-faith incivilities chronically made against me in WT:CHESS threads. But I know you'll attempt to throw more mud here, because that's your ilk. But your behaviors seem to be supported there, and here, and that speaks to the abusive environments here, not to anything I've done. You seem to revel in this abusive environment, I don't. As long as the WP is as hostile and uncivil as it is, you'll continue to do well here. And you're happy with that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Unprovoked? For once and for all, Stop dragging my name into it when you are fighting with other editors. Don't want me involved? Then don't talk about me.

It's good that you acknowledge that your attack on that particular editor was unjustified, but your claim that it was an isolated incident is untrue. Here you tell a new editor to "grow a brain". Your removal of the material was justified, but your uncivil edit summary was not. Here an IP's admittedly poor edit is reverted with the edit summary "dumbass". Please just drop the self-serving claim that you don't initiate incivilities, because you do, and frequently. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Well you're right again, that editsum was bad form. (Was it to an IP for an edit that could be construed as valdalism? Possibly. But one should give benefit of the doubt, and I failed in that case.) But no otherwise, if you assess unprovoked incivilities by me as "frequent" -- that's just not true. The incivilities thrown at me by you, have been frequent. The godawful threads on WT:CHESS where you chronically and baselessly attack me without end for bad-faith, and your essentially trying to turn a convention discussion into a personal attack page on me, shows your own level of civility, MaxBrowne. So what exactly is your logic here? That I have incidents of unprovoked incivility, so I should be indef-blocked? Where does that put you then? Will you self-indef block for calling me, unprovoked, "classic narcissist"? Or is it that you don't see yourself as initiating incivilities? If the latter, that is complete self-denial. Your editing history shows that you don't have any real care about civility, insulting respected chess editor User:Toccata quarta, for example. And all the unreasonable and out-of-line defaming attacks you've made against me. At least I try to do the right thing on Wikipedia, I'm not perfect. But you exploit the loose environment here, are heavily more uncivil than I have been re unprovoked attacks, such as the personal attack thread at WT:CHESS and your unprovoked "classic narcissist". Do you think you are applying your civility standards equally to yourself?! You once even challenged me that I was not qualified to tell anyone they were being uncivil, if there was any speck of incivility in my record. (How logical is that?!) But now you are accusing of the same, when your own record has plenty of it, and even in this thread. Am I supposed to find some logic or reasonability in your arguments, MaxBrowne?? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Want me to find more examples of unprovoked rudeness on your part? Because I can. "Classic narcissist behaviour" was my interpretation of your actions, based on a number of factors, including but not limited to (1) your hypersensitivity to criticism (2) your extreme hostility and argumentativeness over the most petty disputes (3) your flattery towards those who affirm or defend you (4) your absolute inability to see yourself as others see you. I've come across this sort of behaviour frequently on the net and I can recognise it when I see it. Do you not even see the contradiction in an edit summary like "fuck off uncivil asshole"?? Do you think WP:NPA and WP:CIV somehow applies to everyone except you? MaxBrowne (talk) 04:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe you levy that PA again, MaxBrowne. And rub it in for good effect. (Do I have to tell any readers here how abusive?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Here's the thing. If someone were to accuse me of having sex with sheep, that wouldn't bother me in the slightest, since I know I have no zoophilic tendencies whatsoever. It's so far from the truth that it's laughable. This is the effect that the majority of your insults have on me. On the other hand, if someone were to call me a loser who spends way too much time on the computer, that would carry a lot more sting, because it's much closer to the truth. If "narcissist" and "diva" carry a sting for you, that suggests to me that they're somewhere in the vicinity of the truth. If I'm totally wrong about this, maybe you could do something to correct that mis-impression? Believe me, I would love to be proved wrong. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:03, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Is there some reason we haven't indefinitely blocked Ihardlythinkso yet? Since 2012, all I've seen him do is jump into one raging dispute after the next and exhibit a level of IDIDNTHEARTHAT which a deaf person would find difficult to replicate. He seems to believe that NPA doesn't apply to him, as demonstrated above, and gets all up in arms if anyone dares to question anything he does. The headaches Ihardlythinkso has caused are way out of proportion to any good contributions he makes, and have wasted a tremendous number of man-hours from people who have to intervene and deal with the abuse he hurls at anyone and everyone. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Northern, I'm having hard time even imagining or conceiving that any paragraph could compete with your above paragraph, for being right-out-of-the-playbook for the infamous mob and pitch-fork generation for the equally infamous lynching that this board is noted for. (I mean, your paragraph is so iconic, it seems like a copy/paste right out of such a playbook. Cookie-cutter parody even.) The thing is, I don't think that occurs to you, because you are so like a pig in mud here, and that is the accepted cultural norm of this venue. (So, you have no embarrassment whatever for participating as you do, since you know your mud flinging, and torch-waving, will be accepted by other editors who over time have somehow come to accept and call normal this cesspool environment that is a magnet for peanut gallery abuse and drive-by incivilities [and digs, and lies, and smears, and BS]. Because anything goes here. And you have no shame for that. [Wow! I don't know what else to say. It seems right out of a comic book to me, but it is the reality, for so-called adults, "some of whom are partially educated" {George Carlin}, at Wikipedia!]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
That, right there, is probably the best example of someone failing to get the point that you'll ever see. Basalisk inspect damageberate 00:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't done, Mr. Basalisk. And your reference to a "point", is BS. (It's a call for a lynching, plain and clear. With shot-gun unsupported condescensions thrown in to dress it up. Can you summarize the "point" you're seeing to be there, Basalisk? Let's see your summary sentence of said "point". It is criticism and condesension. Mud slinging without a venue to back up what one says. So a free-for all digs and insults and accuses session. Pure cesspool stuff. And I'm supposed to methodically address said editor's concerns? In this venue? When he only wants my head on a pike? You like the tenor here to be one of free-for-all abusiveness, and if I don't receive the abuse like I'm "supposed to", then you have more attacks, re "IDHT". Not buying it, Basalisk. I think your thinking is confused and purpose-driven. You want no reasonable result, or you wound't have rejected the personal offer I made to you earlier. (You're complaining, I thought, about swearing. I offered to stop swearing in any situation on the WP, if you would only leave me alone and stop harassing, ever since you introduced your self when I criticized your RfA nominator. You ignored that proposal. So how is it that you think you don't have unclean hands and unclean intentions here, Basalisk? (BTW, you give me a headache. Are you happy about that? Serve your purpose? Joy joy joy?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
For a long time, I've known you to be an enemy toward me Northern, because I pinched your nerve for calling me a "12-year-old" in a bogus ANI that you closed, where I conducted myself as professionally as I could endeavor dealing with all the mud-throwing there. Because I went to your Talk and civilly objected to your comment "12-year-old", your response was to re-open the ANI on that basis, and you encouraged any admin to come in and block me. (That shows complete and emotionally-driven revenge, Northern, and how would that in any way possible be behavior consistent with WP:ADMINACCT or becoming of admin. Instead it shows to me complete abuse of your power as admin, and a disregard for "behavior at a higher standeard" as though that is a joke. You also kidded and joked and ridiculed me then, at your Talk, with your buddy and notoriously abusive admin Toddst1. Total unbecoming of admins. But you feel you have free license to do, because your admin badge is for life, and admins are seldom dysysopped here, and editors are under the abusive thumbs of admins like you, and you revel in that arrangement. I've not the first to claim the environment with admins of your ilk is corrupted and uncorrectabe, because said admins bar change through protecting their statuses, but surely "admin for life" is a corrupt concept to begin with, and fosters the kind of abuse of power you show so unembarrassingly. You're impressive Northern, as a model case of revenge-driven grudge-driven admin, doing what you can to fulfill those grudges, when opportunity arises. And many opportunities can arise, because any editor can open an ANI thread at any time on any basis, and then the doors open to this free-for-all mud throwing and torch-waving to service said grudges. A wonderfully civilized environment. You're part of what makes that environment tick. And you're proud of that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I suspect it might have something to do with the 23,000 / 68% mainspace edits. The goal is to produce an encyclopedia, right?
I'm the first to admit it would be great if we actually had civility policy rather than a civility meme. Somewhere up there I'm accused of tunnel vision -- to the contrary I'm going to assert I have forest vision, and I just don't understand how someone can legitimately draw a line in the sand here and say that one editor's 8 meter "narcissistic diva" tree is okay but another's 9 meter "cesspool / rhetoric question" tree is block worthy -- even assuming we all agree as to measure the height of the tree. NE Ent 00:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
See again the part about continuing personal attacks following being warned that further personal attacks will result in a block. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
NE Ent, it's not enough to make an ordered list of words and draw a line between the ones that are just-barely-OK and the ones that are just-barely-unacceptable. The context matters. Two people might use the same phrase, but in one case have a reasonable basis for it and in the other case be lashing out without any real justification. You have to ask yourself: Does this person have a good reason for using this phrase? Do other reasonable users agree? Are they speaking with some specificity or as part of a broad pattern of personalizing disputes? In this case I think the answers to these questions are clear and focusing only on language itself (apart from context) misses most of the picture. --Amble (talk) 16:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes people just don't get along and it's best for them to simply stay away from each other. In case someone decides that's the case here and proposes an interaction ban between IHTS and Quale, MaxBrowne, Bushranger, Basalisk and The Blade of the Northern Lights, I want to make sure that we check various talk pages and add Malleus, Drmies, Eric Corbett, Sjakkalle, Dennis Brown and, of course, me. That covers the people baiting/attacking/wiki-copping/whatever against IHTS according to IHTS on my talk page. I'm certain there are more hiding out there on various user talk pages/article talk pages/ANI/etc. At some point I have to wonder how many people we can reasonably expect to simply steer clear of one individual before we decide a civility block is in order. A glance at IHTS's talk page seems to show that a 24 hour block for personal attacks generated more personal attacks, with only the slightest bits of light peeking through. Personally, it seems to me that the ratio of light to heat in this case has been appallingly low for far too long. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Which is why he should be blocked. If he repeatedly blanked pages, repeatedly Uses Vulgar language, and when he gets blocked, gives more Personal threats, he is obviously WP:NOTHERE. I feel we should just block or ban him, as he goes and tries to attack with WP:THROW. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 01:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not advocating any particular course of action with respect to this editor. It should be obvious that we're not friends, but I still think WP:NOTHERE is unfair. I think WP:NOTNOTHERE applies here, specifically the section which reads: "Difficulty in good faith, with conduct norms - A number of users wish to edit, but find it overly hard to adapt to conduct norms such as collaborative editing, avoiding personal attacks, or even some content policies such as not adding their own opinions in their edits. While these can lead to warnings, blocks or even bans in some cases, failure to adapt to a norm is not, by itself, evidence that a user is not trying to contribute productively." MaxBrowne (talk) 02:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
While WP:NOTHERE may not be applicable, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:IDHT are. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
The idea that I'm some sworn enemy of Ihardlythinkso is a fantasy which exists only in his head. For the last year and 3 months I've barely been involved in the inner workings of Wikipedia, and on those rare occasions I've deviated from my article work I haven't really encountered him at all (except once when he started flinging mud at me in front of ArbCom, which doesn't especially trouble me). The articles I've worked on have also given me a fresh perspective on a lot of things, not the least of which is the definition of "abuse" (on a personal level I find it upsetting when people bandy it about so freely, for reasons that should be fairly obvious). I have paid some attention to what's happening around here, though, and I completely stand by every word I said above. If the list of people Ihardlythinkso doesn't get along with is the size of the one SummerPhD provides above, and Ihardlythinkso is the common denominator in all of them, it's a sign that the problem may be fairly one-sided; in addition to agreeing with The Bushranger that CIVIL and NPA seem applicable, see WP:All socks for a good summary of Ihardlythinkso's attitude. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:15, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
So (per WP:All socks) being on the receiving end of a wiki lynch mob is like being denied credit by multiple agencies? Good analogy! Equifax loses 18.6 million lawsuit NE Ent 20:29, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I think you understand my point; if you can't get along with everyone else, there comes a point where you have to consider that you're the problem. I had to do this myself in real life, as indeed the way my brain functions (or doesn't, as the case may be) is the source of a lot of aggravation for people who interact with me. Over the years I've worked extremely hard at adjusting my communication style, and while I'm far from perfect you'd barely recognize my social skills given what they once were. I could have patently refused to accept that I'm ever the problem, but if I did that I would have likely been arrested for breach of peace many years ago (I get rather riled up over certain sporting events, it's been an enormous struggle to get that under control). Same basic issue here; if Ihardlythinkso rejects all responsibility for the problems above, as he has been before, the problems which are documented here are only going to get worse and create a massive timesink. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Block[edit]

  • Support blocking, per the discussion above. And I'll third the notion that I don't appreciate my name being dragged up all over WP in disputes I have no part in. I've been referenced something like 15 times by IHTS in the last week, along with insults and accusations of bad faith. I've intentionally stayed away from his page and this thread to let others comment, and yet I'm still getting attacked. My very first involvement with IHTS was met with a stream of personal attacks which have never ended. This was followed by intentional obstruction, edit warring, and all manner of other issues, which completely prevented any hope of collaboration. IHTS is the first editor for whom I ever asked for an interaction ban in years of editing. I'm having trouble finding any editor with whom he's able to work pleasantly; none so far have commented. If he's unable to work with anyone, then he doesn't belong on a collaborative project.   — Jess· Δ 04:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Suppport, reluctantly. As IHTS has now gone from egreious personal attacks to creating from whole cloth statements that were not made or implied, I have to conclude that either they are not interested in editing collaborately or collegially, or are incapable of doing so. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose (enthusiastically). He's already been blocked, didn't seem to help. Maybe we should try something else. NE Ent 11:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
NE, I trust you since you are a reasonable man and not a former enemy drawn to this ANI looking for blood. What do you like to see different from me. Please be specific. I guarantee you'll get it. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:43, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, the first thing should probably be to stop expecting Wikipedia to be rational, fair, coherent, consistent, or anything like that. Secondly, if you find contributing to Wikipedia isn't enjoyable, I'd log off until such time (if ever) you find that it might be. Beyond that, it would depend on what specific goals you have moving forward. NE Ent 20:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment - During his block, he continued to make personal attacks (which he will tell you were justified/weren't personal attacks/were just payback/aren't as bad as the attacks he's endured/etc.). What would you suggest? Perhaps an interaction ban with an extensive and growing list of editors? "Something else" is not a suggestion. - SummerPhD (talk) 11:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment. I've had no contact in any time recent, or need to contact, and no wish to contact, any of the complaining editors in this ANI. The only contact there's been between me and the complaining editors at this ANI in any time recent, stems from this ANI itself. And 100% of the responses I've given to the complaining editors in this ANI have been turned around and used against me by them, as "fresh" complaint. That is a trick and a trap, since the ANI itself is being used as bait for responses, and no responses were possible, that wouldn't be turned around. That is because all the complaining editors here are former enemies, holding grudges. I wish for no enemies, and no enemy relationships, that is why I have avoided contact with all these editors when the interactions turned sour. But it is a reality that enemies exist, and they are drawn to an ANI to try to find reason to harm, generating it in the ANI itself, since past contacts with them had been dried up and dead. This is a trick and a trap. There is also plenty of WP:STICK present which is the basis of it all. I don't carry any stick, and I don't taunt or bait anyone intentionally, ever. I have just wanted to be left alone by these editors. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
If you just want to be left alone, why did you drag my name into a dispute that I was not involved in on your talk page? Keep in mind that I'm not the first person you've done this to. Northern Antarctica () 12:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment. How many more second chances is he going to get? He has been reported to ANI for incivility on several occasions. He has a chronic, long term problem complying with the WP:CIV and WP:NPA policies, and despite repeated warnings has shown no willingness whatsoever to address this issue. Rather, he has amplified his personal attacks recently, notably on this very thread, because he knows he can do this with no real consequences. What is the point of having a civility policy if people can continuously violate it over several years without so much as a reprimand? My patience with this editor is exhausted. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support He is very uncivil. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 14:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Undecided/Mild Oppose Good contributor, especially towards WT:CHESS. If he prefers to concentrate on Shogi, Xianqqi and Chess Variants in future then that's fine too. He's given at least a small amount of leeway in admitting that maybe, just maybe, he may not have handled things perfectly. But if nothing else comes out of this rather sordid process, I hope he will at least stop dredging up old conflicts every time he has a disagreement with another editor. It's really not nice to drag someone else's name into a conflict that they had nothing to do with. Please stop it! If nothing else comes out of this process, please at least take this on board! Seriously! As for past incidents between Toccata and me, we've long since moved on. So should you, IHTS. MaxBrowne (talk) 17:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC) *Edit:Reluctant Support: While the chess WikiProject needs more active participants, IHTS is a net negative for the project due to (1) numerous personal attacks (2) tendency to fly into a rage at the slightest provocation (3) holding on to personal grudges and constantly resurrecting them, even in unrelated discussions (4) utter unwillingness to address any of these issues. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:40, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with the part about dragging non-participant names into a discussion, but this section is about IHTS, not SummerPhd. NE Ent 20:25, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • We have already noted that IHTS has been known to drag non-participant names into a discussion. Northern Antarctica () 20:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I feel IHTS is trying to make a last ditch effort to save himself from the tightening trap. To much incivility is to much incivility. Maybe we could only have him be able to edit chess related articles as a "Compromise" Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 23:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
As a matter of keeping the rhetoric at a reasonable level, let's avoid using terms like "noose" here. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
OK then, does this phrase look better(Noose to trap)? Thanks for the heads up. 00:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Yeah, I've got to say that although I'm highly critical of Ihardlythinkso I'm not really thrilled with some of the inflammatory choice of words on both sides; just as a reminder, this is what a lynching and a noose really look like, a discussion at ANI is neither of these things. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:02, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think the block caused Ihardlythinkso to vent, the venting continued after the block ended, and some of the things being used as a reason for a second block are the result of this venting. It's bad form to block for venting. @IHTS, please try to calm down. Cardamon (talk) 03:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - IHTS has a long history of venting, was blocked for venting and vented some more. Yes, it would be a bad idea to block for a venting event. It is, however, very disruptive when there's virtually no end to the venting and the venting consists of a steady stream of personal attacks aimed at anyone who dares to mention the personal attacks. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:13, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 03:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I agree with Cardamon. I also don't see enough "significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy" to justify an indef here. Is there evidence of, say, socking? That might change my mind. I still believe in the concept of "escalating blocks" unless it's perfectly obvious that an indef is warranted, and that an indef here in neither necessary nor in line with that. Topic bans can be issued if they are truly needed. Doc talk 03:53, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Cardamon, Doc, HiaB, et al.; and mindful of The Blade's observations about inflammatory word choices on both sides. John 8:7 comes, surprisingly, to my godless mind. Writegeist (talk) 06:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Nothing here rises to the level of another block. The first one strikes me as having been a borderline call. Carrite (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The big problem that led to this ANI thread was, obviously, the blanking. You can call that a diva-ish move, if you like; it certainly was disruptive but it's been handled. More useful than a block (which would deprive us of Ihardlythinkso's article contributions, that a few editors have pointed out are useful) is a restriction, a kind of ad-hoc restriction, like "no venting outside of your own talk page". Or, if an admin thinks some vent veers into NPA territory (and I would include "dragging" others into disputes, as examples of something or just to tirritate), a block (but not an indefinite).

    I am very mindful of what Ihardlythinkso did on Summer's talk page for the longest time, and I was on the verge, more than once, of blocking for it; the only reasons I didn't was that a. I may be a bit of a coward and b. I wasn't looking forward to having to defend myself from claims of being involved, in these endless rants. Let's keep Ihardlythinkso on a leash, if you will, and let's keep talking. They are not unreasonable, even if they seem to get pretty close to it sometimes. Drmies (talk) 14:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

So kind of like WP:ROPE as in its his last chance? Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 21:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
If IHTS has been "swearing up and down that they understand and won't do again whatever it was that got them blocked, rather than arguing the finer points of the original block", I missed it. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:15, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support The user has demonstrated the same exact behavior for two years. That is enough observation to understand that this behavior will not stop. Removing the problem (the user in this case) is the only reasonable solution; otherwise, there will continue to be more ANI threads like this in the future. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:20, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    From your user page: "I've also been [...] falsely reported for supposedly violating guidelines on many occasions." Clearly you've demonstrated WP:IDHT for too long with too many users. Clearly your behavior will not stop and the only reasonable solution is to remove you from the Wikipedia. Otherwise there will continue to be more reports like the ones you've received in the future. (Oh! Nice to meet you too.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:24, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    From User:Antandrus/observations on Wikipedia behavior: "Troublesome editors waste far more of the community's time than vandals. One who sometimes makes good edits, but endlessly bickers, threatens, insults, whines, and is eventually banned, will have taken hundreds of hours from other users who would have better spent that time building the encyclopedia. This is in part due to people's fascination with conflict. Efficiently managing troublesome editors is one of the best ways to improve the project, but also one of the most difficult." MaxBrowne (talk) 11:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    "Sometimes"?! (I put work in all my edits. What an insult.) Thank you for that philosophy. (I suppose by quoting it, it exempts you from being among those who are "troublesome". Even though you levy "narcissist" PA/insult more than once in this thread.) I have never threatened any editor in my wiki-history, and never will. Now, if you will kindly never post to my attention again, it would be good. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:06, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    Just quoting the article, not necessarily saying that every single one of his points applies to you. As I explained "narcissist" is just my personal impression. Please prove me wrong. Likewise about the "don't post to my attention" thing; that includes posts like this. Would be good if we could just stay out of each other's way. Shut up about me and I'll shut up about you, deal? MaxBrowne (talk) 12:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    That post to Drmies wasn't about you. (It was about competing approaches when responding to a sock -- antagonizing vs. unantagonizing.) It's not the first time you've unnecessarily personalized my good-faith posts or contributions to article or project Talks, imagining and accusing without basis of bad-faith or that you're being persecuted [13]. You're hugely uncivil in my book, the opposite of open-minded collegiate discussion that is WP pillar. So please just leave me be. (I don't have to prove anything to you, and I don't make "deals" with an editor such as you.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    Interaction ban request Since this editor refuses to do so voluntarily, I formally request an interaction ban. That means no posting on each other's talk page, no replying to each other's edits on talk pages, no undoing each others edits, no linking to each other's diffs and no mentioning each other directly or indirectly anywhere on wikipedia. Failure to comply will be considered harassment.MaxBrowne (talk) 13:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    I see no reason why you should be formally sanctioned. If you tell IHTS to leave you alone, he should leave you alone. Northern Antarctica (T) 14:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    Such measures are preventative rather than punitive. Actually an interaction ban with *all* the people who have complained about his constant dropping their names into unrelated disputes would be appropriate. MaxBrowne (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    Clearly it's not about me rather his own recognition of lack of self-discipline to control comments [14] (plus more imagination re self-persecution). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    "Repeatedly brings up "grievances" from the past. Doesn't let go of grudges. Nothing is too old to bring up repeatedly.".MaxBrowne (talk) 22:15, 9 April 2014 (UTC) Edit One thing you'll never see me doing - I will never use someone's apology or admission as a weapon against them. That's just low. MaxBrowne (talk) 03:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    If you're referring to your apology/admission at [15], the audience for said apology was other members of WP:CHESS, not me. You're clearly explaining (and excusing) your abusive posts against me. (If it wasn't excusing, then where was apology to me?) Simple arithmetic. More BS. More mud. (Are you done yet?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 05:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    Just stay the hell away from me already. Don't talk to me, don't reply to me, don't link to my diffs, don't refer to me directly or indirectly anywhere on wikipedia. Ever. MaxBrowne (talk) 06:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    Oh good! (The end.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:17, 10 April 2014 (UTC) p.s. I really don't carry grudges, MaxBrowne, per your prev accuse. But I don't trust you, and, we have no communication relationship, sans a "room" (dedicated subpage), and a moderator, to hash things out. (Perhaps they could be, and you and I would get along "fine"; however, there is no such WP venue currently [sad], and based on your best attempts to destroy me here [pretty pathetic really], why s/ I trust you [outside of said arrangement to reach a cordial relationship]?) You've expended a good amount of crass activity here, that is a pity and a waste. Take care, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:17, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── This is a strange thread at this point. It's almost like a quasi-site ban discussion that does not have the consensus needed to enact a ban, and therefore should be closed per WP:SNOW. An attempt to seek consensus for an indefinite block, proposed over a week ago? It's still not there. The bot is about to archive this. There's apparently no consensus to block this editor for a even a few hours, let alone indefinitely at this time, and it should be appropriately shut down. Doc talk 02:41, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reclose please[edit]

Move request reclosed. Closing before the heat builds. Blackmane (talk) 14:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please reclose this, removing any judgement [16] (proposed earlier [17]). Judgement was explicitly prevented, has virtually no scrutiny option, and in such a closure should be immmaterial. -DePiep (talk) 10:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Reclosed, but in the original state. DePiep should not have modified the closing summary of another editor. Judgment or not: If a discussion is closed it should be left untouched (including the summary), and any new comments and/or additions require the start of a new thread like this. The unilateral removal of Armbrust's comment by DePiep was not warranted. If you're unsatisfied with the outcome or the wording of the closure, please use the Wikipedia:Move review instead. De728631 (talk) 13:37, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Useless reply. I don't need or ask for a "you should/not" paternalistic remark, nor is it to the point. As said, I already asked there. And the edit you refer to was reverted earlier, and so is moot. You could also advise me not to stuff beans up my nose. So instead of responding to this post that is due for ANI, you divert and pick up at a point way off in the timeline. I find it tiresome that admins here so easily reflex to skipping the OP and zoom in on spelling errors, thereby showing not to have read the OP. -DePiep (talk) 09:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I did read the OP and the relevant discussion but obviously I don't agree with your reasoning. I've already explained that closing comments are up to the closer – and I didn't see anything wrong in Armbrust's comments. And what you may view as a paternalistic telling-off was not directed to you in the first place (otherwise I would have written "you should not..."). It was rather an explanation for other readers of this board who did not take the time to scroll through some three pages of edit history. De728631 (talk) 13:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
What you respond to my OP here was not in your earlier answer at all. And this is my point: why did you let yourself be diverted? As far as this second answer is related to my OP, you are in a circular reasoning (which is exactly what I tried to break out of, what is about a point long ago in the timeline, which has been covered see my diffs, to what other admins said the opposite, to which to closing admin did not respond at all, etc. etc.). The question now has moved to why there was no reply to the OP in the first place. And I have no means to get attention back to the topic I set up. But alas, I won't start a discussion on ANI. Admins here don't read the actual question at all, then see if they can take the heat away from a friend-admin, then look if they can't block any non-admin editor, then start writing a reply that is not related to the question, and in the end there is no way that a poster can get back to the topic again. In short, in no time the replies have no connection with the topic. There is nothing "obvious" in your answer. -DePiep (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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Osvala Canvassing support at AfD.[edit]

No action needed. OccultZone (Talk) 15:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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I nominated Abu Sayed Ansari Shaheb for deletion. The article's creator then canvassed several users 1, 2, 3. I then warned Osvala for canvassing yet they continued here and then specifically asked for a vote in the articles favour here. Flat Out let's discuss it 02:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

the attempts at canvasing are meeting with their appropriate responses. No action here is needed. DGG ( talk ) 05:11, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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Highermafs canvassing for AfD[edit]

Same as above. OccultZone (Talk) 15:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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I nominated Abdur Rahman Madani under Afd and they have canvassed several editors; 1, 2, 3, 4 and a bot 5. There appears to be a connection between this editor and Osvala who have canvassed in a similar way, which i will take up at SPI. Flat Out let's discuss it 02:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)‎


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Request for eyes on The Ultimate Warrior[edit]

No action needed, and this is the sort of thing that should be posted at AN, not ANI. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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Just a heads-up asking for some admin eyes monitoring The Ultimate Warrior, as multiple reliable sources are now reporting his death; between his notoriety and his already having been somewhat in the news again (due to his induction into the WWE Hall of Fame on Saturday), we're already starting to get puerile vandalism and people inserting sensationalist speculative "causes" of his death. A semi-protection request is already up, but until there's action, it might be good to have some more eyes on it. rdfox 76 (talk) 05:15, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Notoriety? What was he notorious for? A quick glance at the article doesn't suggest any notoriety, though I admit I have not read it all in detail. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I doubt it would make it into Wikipedia or pass BLP considerations but Warrior was known for a few quirks. He would often cut high energy promo's that would descend into barely coherent pseudo-philosophical rants peppered with words he made up, like 'destrucity'. How much of this was, as they say, key-fabe is debatable since he marketed himself as a conservative political speaker, self published a comic (also a barely coherent rant fest) and otherwise acted like an oddball even when he was arguably out of character. Wether that counts as 'noteriety' anywhere outside of wrestling circles isn't really for me to say. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 14:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

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Racist comments in talk page of Purley, London[edit]

Liberally resolved. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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I've come accross some racist comments in Talk:Purley, London posted from an IP user (they've been there since Dec-10) which don't add anything to the article, but I don't know if it is classed as vandalism. I can't work out what the Wikipedia policy is on this situation, so I've come here for help. Can I remove the comments? Seaweed (talk) 12:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

@Seaweed: I originally read "Dec-10" as meaning the 10th of December 2014, but I now see you mean December 2010. I regard it as vandalism, but whether it is vandalism or not, it is use of a talk page as a forum about the subject of the article, not about editing the article, and both Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines indicate that such content may be removed. I have removed it. My advice is to be BOLD and remove irrelevant and offensive content, even if you are not sure of a policy or guideline that justifies doing so. If anyone wishes to question what you did, then they can do so, but even if they do, and your edit gets reverted, no harm has been done by removing it for a while. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
It's already been removed. I would have removed it on sight, TBH. Unless there's some liberals around here claiming IP editors make valid contributions... Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the help. I don't normally get involved in this sort of thing in Wikipedia, so I was unsure what to do. It's very rare to see that type of comment in Wikipedia and I was quite suprised to see that it had lasted over 3 years untouched, so I thought there might some reason.Seaweed (talk) 13:00, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm definitely not a liberal. IP editors can and do make valuable contributions. That talk page comment for the Purley article is pretty far from a valuable contribution. -- Atama 23:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

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Daniell family[edit]

Deleted as hoax. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:57, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
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An editor asked at The Teahouse about an article Daniell family that appears to be an ugly little hoax. Can some kind administrator take quick action to clean up this little mess? Thanking you in advance. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

(The above was posted while I was writing this) See Daniell family. A post on the help desk [18] led me to look into this, and I have to agree with the suggestion made there - this looks like a clear hoax. Google seems to find nothing to indicate that this is "one of the most powerful families, if not the most powerful family, in the history of the United States". The book that this is cited to, The Daniell inheritance appears not to exist. The article in the NYT seems not to exist either. A search for 'Chase Manhattan Daniell' finds nothing to confirm their supposed "control" of the bank. Thomas Daniell and his brother William Daniell certainly existed - but appear to have no connection with the United States. As the help page post noted, the article was created by contributors who have edited nothing else. I was tempted to tag this for speedy deletion as a hoax, but thought that in might be best to raise the matter here instead, as it isn't 'unambiguously' a hoax in itself - rather it is the lack of clear evidence to the contrary, in circumstances where one would expect to find it, that leads to this conclusion. Anyway, it needs looking into, and dealing with appropriately. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
To create an illusion of plausibiltiy, the creator of the hoax takes articles about the Rockefeller family and renames them to refer to the imaginary "Daniell family". Here is an example: Rockefeller Family Tries to Keep A Vast Fortune From Dissipating which is cited with "Daniell" substituted for "Rockefeller". Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I've nuked it. Graham87 06:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I've restored the first edit, at it was a plausible redirect. Graham87 06:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I've indefinitely blocked all the editors involved and reverted their edits where necessary: Sdfghjkgh (talk · contribs), WatcherofPages (talk · contribs), UltimateEditt (talk · contribs), Wikiknowss (talk · contribs), and Cataphile (talk · contribs). Graham87 07:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Well done, Graham87. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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Virus/vandalism[edit]

OP blocked as a sock of Altimgamr. - The Bushranger One ping only 10:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
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SORTED
I blocked the IP for 2 weeks, per Ferrari's request. Enigmamsg 03:11, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
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I suppose I have a factory-installed super-malicious system that automatically removes a bunch of Wikipedia articles' reference URLs for my edits. However, that doesn't mean I removed them. I'm using this proxy server called hungersurf.com. My operating system is Windows 7.1, and the browser I'm using is Google Chrome (with Incognito). Ferrari S.p.A (talk) 02:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Altimgamr. Bahooka (talk) 02:52, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Now that I'm logged out, you can see this IP address I'm using (yes, the one that's assigned to hungersurf.com). You should block it permanently or for a very long time so that you don't see my edits causing many reference URLs to be automatically removed the next time I edit an article. 209.251.58.174 (talk) 02:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

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Ongoing personal attacks by User:Skookum1[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Please see WP:RFC/U for further dispute resolution process that may be useful. This board isn't going to be able to resolve this issue. This board is not suited for lengthy discussions. Jehochman Talk 14:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Despite by blocked for 48 hours for unspecified reasons ([19]) by User:Fayenatic london, User:Skookum1 continues to make personal attacks. The last month and a half has seen an incredible wave of personal attacks, many against myself. Other more experienced editors advised me not to do anything since it would be a waste to time, so I sat back and observed the Skookum1's attacks continue unabated. Finally I started issuing warnings on his talk page (March 20th, March 21st, March 21st, and March 31st, in hopes of grabbing the attention of an administrator, but so far in vain. People have commented that Skookum1 makes valuable contributions; however, the other editors and I also make valuable contributions to Wikipedia for years now and have done so without violating basic Wikipedia Pillars.

For a sampling of personal attacks ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" also constitutes a personal attack):

  • Against myself: "she's NOT a good editor, she's behaving in a rogue manner, I'll take it up elsewhere, I guess I was just pointing out to you that somebody's sleeping dog didn't really want to stay lying down...." diff
  • Against myself: "You don't get how half-informed you are about the FOO people problem ... Your logic throughout all of this has been half-informed ... It's ironic to me that you, as someone on an indigenous high horse often enough, as with how you came at me over the Nevada categories, would in this case wind up pandering to the name-changes brought on by colonialist attitudes/chauvnism towards native nomenclatures..... diff
  • Against myself: "Well, if I didn't have to hear the same obstinate, half-informed ideas brought over time and again ... All the things she's bringing forward right now I told her about already, she dismissed them, told me what I thought didn't matter, and that she's entitled to her opinion. What she's really saying is she's determined to underscore her ignorance and has no intentions of learning about the subject matter she's screwing with" diff
  • Against myself: "you violently and bitterly resisted my attempt to make sense out of the Nevada categories ... start throwing apples and oranges around and pointing at other name problems to justify your rashness and obstinacy defending this bad choice of category name which you made without having a clue what you're talking about." diff
  • Against myself: "pretending yourself to be such an authority on it that youy think your "opinion" (=ignorance of the topic) matters, and that you have a "right" to impose it on others??" diff
  • Against myself (accusation w/o proof): "... considering her timing of this re other convos in IPNA and elsewhere, and her territorial WP:OWNership of Nevada tribe/reservation categories where she accused me of being a vandal for trying to make sense of that category structure to bring it in line with IPNA standards ... to me it seems like she jumped on top of it as a provocation or a "throw the skookum a bone" time-waster like Kwami likes to do.... Hard to do, to accept good faith, when someone who has accused you in no slight terms in the past in very pointed NPA terms (impugning I'm a white racist or supermacist, calling me a vandal for trying to fix glaring miscategorization problems) is so aggressively WRONG in terms of the suggestions and reasons she brings forward, no matter how often I explain the facts to her, she reiterates her lack of correct information as if it were valid and mine was only "opinion", and wrong in her actions of ignoring the CfD and acting on her own without recourse to proper process." diff

...these go on and on, and I can provide more diffs if need, but to move on to more recent attacks:

  • Against User:Maunus and myself: "He was at the time of most if not all, hence the overwrite power he had, which maunus and Uysvdi still have despite their contrarian and hostile and incivil behaviour." diff
  • Against User:Kwamikagami and myself: "Your attitude has been hostile and contrarian, and you yourself attacked me subtextually during that little game you played with the Shoshone categories, your position there also being against guidelines for category use and harmonizing names with category titles. Kwami's out of line, and this ain't the first time (his little game with the K'omoks title these last two days was way out of line, and geez I thought you of all people in the cabal, being indigenous yourself, would seed the point of respecting modern name-choices made by those peoples..... but as with Squamish, which you waded into without a clue about the implications, you apparently prefer to stick with teh colonialists' names for peoples you don't even know. EAt apples much? And this little NPA message of yours is horseshit, given your own behaviour towards me....... Kwami defends racist terms and regularly espouses anti-native attitudes, and yet there you were lecturing me about not being indigenously aware...... ACK what a waste of time the lot of you are; ramming through your NCL pet project, applying it helter skelter without any thought of consistency, or the long-standin convention about standalone names being dismissive about native endonyms, and about Canadian English. That you are an admin is a joke." diff and diff
  • Against User:Kwamikagami: "YOUR POV is what the problem is here, and accusing me of that is a farce. I'm the one that's being regularly attacked and criticized, and if I do so much as criticize a policy or point to someone's erroneous or ill-considered actions, I get an NPA warning from someone who's attacked me herself. Your problem Kwami is you can't admit you're wrong and that you have a complete disdain for the knowledge of the places and people and linguistic idiom (aka Canadian English usages) that's really obnoxious and you show it time and time again" diff
  • Against JorisvS: "If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the 'support' votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is NOT based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me ... Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds ... Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues ... it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, not the topic at hand, and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis." diff
  • Against JorisvS: "Please contain your prejudices ... The subtext of bigotry towards native peoples and their names in all such RMs is both tiresome and disturbing ..." diff
  • Against JorisvS: "You bleated that UNDAB and NCET haven't faced RfCs; I think it's high time that NCL got a once-over by more than your little crew of linguistics groupies." diff

If anyone wants more examples, I can furnish more.

Skookum1 has frequently accused me of attacking him, but when asked to find concrete proof, could not (User talk:Skookum1#March 2014). The conversation where he incorrectly believes I accused him of racism is located at User talk:Skookum1/Archive 18#Categories on redirects and User talk:Skookum1/Archive 19#December 2013. He accused me of calling his edits to Nevada tribes' categories as "vandalism"; however, I never did. The edit summaries of the edits in question can be found: here and here; they involved removing reservation cats from redirects.

Skookum1 has many conspiracy theories against me, which, frankly, I find disturbing. In truth, I try to avoid him as much as possible in my editing, this AN/I being a major exception. In real life, I work with numerous Native artists from British Columbia, but don't bother writing about them on Wikipedia in the attempt to avoid Skookum1.

This recent barrage of personal attacks has created a toxic environment that does not serve any of us well. Ignoring the problem hasn't helped, and issuing warnings on Skookum1's talk page hasn't achieved anything. These personal attacks need to stop. If there *is* a policy that allows a user to attack anyone they want without any recourse, I would like to hear it. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

  • Comment I've had many run-ins with Skookum, though I haven't always been polite either. If I disagree with him on a matter of procedure (for example, when Skookum dislikes the names of articles that follow our naming guidelines, I think it's best to discuss changing the guidelines, rather than making scores of move requests and arguing each of them independently as an exception to the guidelines), then he accuses me of racism, perversion, conspiracy, or other acts of bad faith. I've had good experiences with him too, where he's been reasonable and helpful, but only when (a) I agreed with him, or (b) I was seeking his advice and had no opinion of my own. Skookum has made valuable edits, but not IMO valuable enough to overlook his socially inappropriate behaviour. — kwami (talk) 22:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • My reasons for blocking are set out on my talk page rather than Skookum1's, User_talk:Fayenatic_london#Skookum1. I have tried to coach this editor, but have not succeeded. Although I chose not to take further enforcement action in his case, I have been warning him (see his talk page) that action is bound to come if he does not change his behaviour, but sadly this has not changed. – Fayenatic London 22:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • This ANI and the threats of it I view as part of an ongoing harassment of attack and obstructionism by Usyvdi on partisan and personal grounds and constitutes an abuse of power; Bushranger made me as a person the target of discussion in that CfD, rather than address the issues or even read my statements, despite support from other editors who were in agreement with me on that issue. Usyvdi has partisan motivations here and is abusing her power as an admin on behalf of that agenda, and has issued NPA warnings one-sidedly while ignoring those made against me by herself, Kwami, JorisV, Maunus and others, and also tolerating an obvious campaign of oppositionism in various RMs and other discussions. Her own condescensions and derisions toward me are a matter of record and constitute harassment on behalf a particular agenda and some kind of personal resentment that seem to have begun quite a while ago; this is all highly unCIVIL and AGF and her own NPAs against me put her assault on me in a highly hypocritical context. Others respect me, and actually are capable of reading my posts instead of complaining that don't have time or ability to read so-called "walls of text"; many patronizing comments by her and her colleagues at NCL are staple fare in various RMs, and her refusal to discuss her inconsistency on various matters pertaining to guidelines and other matters. This is a nuisance an ANI and I believe it is her conduct, not mine, that should be on the table and her adminship reviewed - and revoked.

She denies saying things to me which I know she said and must be hidden in page histories somewhere, which I will take the time to dig out because of this ANI; she has also deleted my attempt to broach an important issue where she is in conflict with her own actions, and added the extremely NPA edit comment "Get a life!". she has refused discussion and met important questions with silence. The one-sided nature of her conflated NPA accounts completely belies the ongoing derision and opposition and insults of herself and others who are defenders of the extremely flawed guideline WP:NCL.

This is all a waste of time and just more harassment, and I believe part of a joint campaign to drive me by that particular faction to drive me from Wikipedia or have me blocked so as to muzzle my critiques of their actions and faulty guidelines and questionable behaviour. It is completely one-sided and highly partisan in nature and highly immature overall; playing wiki-cop when she herself is no one to talk is, quite frankly, a bore. I have been doing useful work while putting up with harassment, evasion, derision and more; this ANI is just more procedural obstructionism and hostility towards my editing activities and is highly questionable in the extreme. This ANI should be about her, and her erstwhile allies against me, not about me. I have work to do and that life to lead that she told me to go get; Wikipedia is becoming more and more about procedure and protocol that honest work on articles and seems increasingly smaller and smaller pool full of narrower and narrower minds invested with more and more power....and pompous behaviour. Yes, I am voluble but I am articulate and respected by many editors despite all the derision and denunciation.

This ANI is a nuisance ANI and partisan harassment and IMO nothing more; conflations of critiques of actions and guidelines are being misportrayed as NPA when much more explicit and vicious personality attacks and sundry derisions go unaddresszed, and are a tiresome bore at countless RMs and also that CfD that Bushranger interloped on by attacking me for my writing style without addressing content and support votes; that CfD and its predecessor and t he RMs preceding it all need revisiting, perhaps mediation or Arbcom or wherever, and NCL needs an RfC to address its many inadequacies. The use of adminship on behalf of a partisan alliance hostile towards me is highly questionable and should be being reviewed by all the adminship, not just the claque of those who recite TLDR as it it were a guideline and not an excuse to not listen or address important issues and incorrect claims which cannot be put in terse form.

The presumptuous behaviour and comments towards me by her and other admins who presume to speak for "the community" or as "we", as JorisV has done and others allied to Uysvdi is also a matter of record, as are incantations of guidelines without reference to the wider context of the rest of guidelines; the use of "fanatic" is an apt discussion of the WP:DUCK behaviour of those concerned, and was conflated into NPA by hypersensitivity and an obvious laager mentality by those who maintain that NCL has primacy over all other guidelines. Yet despite even more virulent NPAs against me, I am the one being attacked and now officially harassed....I will post a link or two later to longer replies and comments about the decay in commonsense and civility at Wikipedia in recent times, including a reply to her on her pre-ANI warning to me last night, which I withheld for review until today.Skookum1 (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I am not an administrator. I ignored your personal attacks for weeks; however, they did not abate, so I gave giving you warnings for your personal attacks (which I would have no cause to do, if you would simply stop creating personal attacks). An AN/i is not a personal attack; having a different opinion is not a personal attack. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
    • how bizarre but also typical of you, in all your conflations of my points about issues and guidelines and ongoing conduct and often rank dishonesty into alleged NPA status. "having a different opinion is not a personal attack" is completely contrary to how you have been treating my "different opinions" (which are 90% of the time or more directly about citable facts, other precedents and various guidelines other than the one being tub-thumped repetitively and out of context; I present facts, you claim they are only opinion while continuing to defend ORIGINALRESEARCH in NCL and also in NCET, and you deride my presentation of this with open derision and uncivil commentary on a regular basis, though not as harshly as the many AGFs and NPAs from your NCL colleagues which you also turn a blind eye to.

I am glad you are not an admin; I have seen your overwrite redirects and other things which led me to believe that; your pompousness and back-handed attitude towards my attempts to discuss guidelines and such matters as the "FOO people" problem and category redirects has been noxious and insulting. Your ANI is as hypocritical as much of your other conduct and words; this is a waste of time and is just more obstructionism and and a way to keep from answering to issues and RMs and to seek official muzzling of me to keep me from critiquing the NCL agenda and your own inconsistent positions on many matters. I will find that lengthy derision you launched at me re the category redirects which you deny making, as it was competely an NPA, being insulting and also somewhat racist towards me as a non-indigenous person.Skookum1 (talk) 05:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a single monolithic group of editors. Over years now, I've dealt with the exact same situation, have been equally frustrated, but read and am familiar with the current iteration of both conventions, discuss the issues on the talk pages of those conventions, and don't resort to personal attacks. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Given there's established consensus to violate WP:NOR in the name of WP:MOS when it comes to article titles in certain other parts of the encyclopedia, that ship sailed long ago. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Me, too[edit]

In this diff today, Skookum1 attributes all kinds of unspecified bad intent to me and others. This is uncalled for. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, yet more conflation and distortion claiming to be NPA when really it is evasion of the gist of your opposition, which is obstructionist and not about guidelines or real-world usage, but only a defence of your claim that the title in question is ambiguous, which it is NOT and you ignore both guidelines and cites/stats produced by entrenching the belief that it IS ambiguous, despite being no different from Coquitlam, Nanaimo and other town items that share a name with now-archaic usages;WP:CSG#Places is very clear about such issues but you muddy the waters despite proof that the District of Saanich is the primary usage in the course of justifying ignoring guidelines that I am acting under the mandate of, and with consensus from other WPCANADA editors.Skookum1 (talk) 05:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Skookum1, forgive me for being extremely blunt here, but there's a saying that's relevant to your situation here. Extremely relevant, even. "When you're in a hole, stop digging." - The Bushranger One ping only 08:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Your repeated attacks on my writing style buried the very relevant points I raised and the support votes coming from informed and conscientious editors who understand what I'm talking about and don't hassle me for my writing style as if it were a crime; BHG's closure in making me the target of the negative and off-guideline closure are of the same kind as your own targeting of me in your Fayenatic's close of last year of the previous CfD. and rather than heed him, you ignored the Mightyquill's comments about focusing on what I have to say not on me, which is totally contrary to the way any discussion is supposed to be decided on; on guidelines and facts, not targeting the proponent as a reason to deny the very needed CfD to correct the very bad and vague resulting stasis at a very questionable title. Others see my points and agree; the closure of the Squamish town RM was similarly skewed by procedural bafflegab and the endless TLDR mantra by those who cannot manage to read extended argument or even the guidelines, and by a host of opposition votes from people voting against the proposal in well-established and persistent patterns of knee-jerk opposition to anything I do or say.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
      • As I mentioned there, I came into that discussion neutral; my opinon of your editing style and discussion style was fully shaped by nobody other than yourself. Perhaps you need to consider, just for a moment, that if people are "opposed to anything I do or say", then perhaps maybe, just maybe, the problem is not them, but you. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Wow I'm not sure if Skookum1 could have proved the OP's point any better. Might have been better to plead the Fifth, however, based on the above alone, I forsee a break in Skookum1's editing patterns in the near future ES&L 10:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • You mean the huge amount of valuable work I've been putting in despite endless harassment from a certain faction who want to see me gone because I'm in their way? Summary censure of a valuable contributor and very encyclopedically-conscious editor because of the insecurities towards my lengthy writingz and detailed commentary and wide-ranging interests and knowledge, or silencing my ability to respond to putdowns and insults accordingly? Is Wiki-bureacracy putting itself ahead of content so readily that someone who's created a huge mass of articles is so easily shut out by someone's attacks against me reaching such fever pitch and endless hypocritical accusations against me by those stonewalling and degrading me on a regular basis? Really? Is that what Wikipedia is about? The iron hand of so-called wikiquette and blatant hypocrisy about same, rather than honestly and fully addressing issues of content and TITLE??Skookum1 (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:No personal attacks provides the definition of "personal attacks," which includes, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence." -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Oh, so Kwami calling my bringing up guidelines that he doesn't like "ridiculous" and "idiotic" and more is fine and dandy huh? And there were claims about NPA about me that had to do with nothing more than showing how he (and others) were in violation of guidelines or had ignored consensus (just as you had done in re-creating Category:Squamish). I'm busy in real life; your own groundless accusations and many putdowns of me are many, I'll get to them yet.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
You have also successfully showcased why there is WP:DIVA (Specifically the part stating "... long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, long of course being subjective). Seriously just in the ANI responding to your behavior you have tossed out at least half a dozen dispersions. The requirements to edit also include being able to work in a colaborative environment; content isn't created in a vacuum. Creating a hostile editing environment is not the way to go. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Funny you should use that term "Diva" it applies very much to Uysvdi as links here later will show; but here's a good one where she reverts a needed change to NCET saying "no consensus", meaning that she and Kwami don't want it, even though it's come up over and over and over again in the RMs that the "NCL Pack" (I was reading WP:List of cabals last night have been so bitterly and repetitively opposing on spurious grounds; claiming that the NCL-advocated "FOO people" is "preferred" has been clearly shown to be in violation of TITLE, as is also the claim that it is "unambiguous".....those have to come out, along with the ORIGINALRESEARCH claim that such in a "language-people pair" both are primary topics so both' must be disambiguated; the consensus has taken place, just not in the little backyard where she and Kwami are stonewalling/ignoring the discussion of NCET that will never be a consensus, given her silence at questions she doesn 't want to answer, and Kwami's rank insults and negative commentary. "Subjective" is hardly what others familiar with my work would call it; guidelines, sources, informed local knowledge and more, are being met by everything from ad hominem attacks and snipes, irrelevant red herrings, mis-citations of guidelines or just not answering to the major guidelines; I'll compile links to these later; I'm busy in real life today, but between "DIVA" and "subjective" you have nailed on the head not me, but the activities thrown up and thrown at me in opposition by those railing against my attempts to put right what they have put wrong, including that little reversion of Uysvdi's at NCET, which she does not WP:OWN. Many others have pointed out those flaws in NCET, the consensus is there, and the flaws are so many in NCL that IMO it should be trashed and started over from scratch from objective reality, not the agenda of a club of linguists.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to AN/I, Skookum1, the little that I've learned is that, regardless of your contributions thus far, editors that are seen as disrupting the project are sanctioned. I've seen editors who were productive for years and years, then some straw breaks the camel's back, they go off, making accusations and can't be talked down off the ledge and they end up being blocked. Editors here are asking you to come down from the ledge. Enough of the conspiracy theories, claims of being ganged up are rarely met with empathy because these are never one-sided disputes.

Also, no one, I mean, no one, wants to read a wall of text. If you want people to read your argument, please be concise, direct and on topic.Liz Read! Talk! 18:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The editors who are disrupting the project are those who are persistently blocking changes mandated to titles by major guidelines; and Kwami's attempt to shut down RMs because he claims he wants a centralized discussion; one that he did not hold when he went across thousands of articles without discussion, applying a guideline that he wrote himself; among the casualties were important indigenous titles in my own part of the world, which it took five bitterly fought RMs and no end of personal abuse and baiting from, to correct. "Disruptive" like "subjective" and "diva" are way more apt for his behaviour and that of the other NCLers who persist in trying to block name changes with subjective arguments, specious commentary, and re-incantations of NCL with no discussion of anything else - except attackign Canadian English. Uysvdi has mostly stayed out of these RMs; the whole campaign of oppositionism has been noted and criticized by others.... I'm used to the ironies of being accused of what others are doing, but calling ME "disruptive" when all this is going on...well, that's what Kwami said about my launching of individual RMs on the titles he wantonly changed to suit himself after the bulk RMs I launched to address only 120 of them were closed. I have to get busy with my day; the track record of this campaign to bully and oppose me is very long, and I'm not the only one who has observed that there's one hell of a lot of knee-jerk opposition and relentless nitpicking going on to delay the needed reversions; I was going to file a multiple ANI on this group of editors (whicvh is not a conspiracy because it's public and also demonstrable fact) but Uysvdi beat me to it. I'm not the one being disruptive, I'm the one being victimized by those who are being disruptive.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Skookum, you're doing yourself no favours here. Walls of text + inflammatory language in response to concerns raised at AN/I are extremely unlikely to result in a situation that continues with your unimpeded ability to edit. Walk away from the computer, have a cup of tea or whatever you prefer, and practice some mindfulness before you continue to engage here. I urge you to do this for your own good, and for your ability to keep editing without problems. — Daniel 02:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Skookum1 exhibits some classic diva behavior, and his inevitable return from the last "throw my arms up in the air" wikibreak that lead me to this conclusion is reinforced - and problems continue. I do not understand the persecution complex, and I probably don't need to. Skookum1 needs to toe the line like we all have to. Doc talk 03:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The tacit message I've received from Wikipedia in the last month and a half is that Skookum1 gets to shower me with personal attacks, including accusations with no proof of my attacking him, and he will face absolutely no recourse—despite personal attacks bringing a major breach of the pillars of the institution. I've been plugging along since July 29, 2007, editing and creating new articles. But despite a solid track record of six and a half years of editing, apparently I just have to lump it and endure attacks such as the following?

  • "IMO you are a coward and a hypocrite... like a blind bull in a china shop. ... So go ahead, feel powerful, delete me from your little self-contained world; and throw me another taunt; you attacked and degraded me over your precious nevada categories, then waded into a BC category as if by deliberate malice. Knowingly provocative. I think you're happy with the mess you've created. Since I've pointed out that you're a hypocrite and acting from cowardice too, I might as well add that your behaviour is clearly passive-aggressive ... I also think you're a racist." diff
  • "impugning me as a racist and a white-guy-who-should-butt-out-of-native-topic areas, as Uysvidi has done" ... "Childish behaviour masked as righteous snottiness; I'm not the self-righteous one here, you are, and Uysvidi." diff.

There's all this discussion about how to attract and retain new editors, female editors, native editors, etc. Why would *anyone* want to work anonymously and for free just to endure treatment like this??? -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Uyvsdi, I'm not sure you've read the comments we've made towards Skookum if you honestly somehow read that we tacitly approve of their pathetic, childish, and inappropriate behaviour at all. The message that they should have got was this: "you're hanging by your last thread. Any further such comments will lead to a block" - that's the rather loud, clear, obvious message DP 00:20, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
WHOA ""you're hanging by your last thread. Any further such comments will lead to a block" - that's the rather loud, clear, obvious message" = if that's a statement against me or for me, I'm not sure, but given that the prevailing winds here are "shut up and let us pass judgment on you" I'm gathering it may be the former. "The condemned is not allowed to speak in his own defence".......very Kafka-esque. The "pathetic, childish and inappropriate behaviour" is in the nasty and/or wheedling comments and obstructionism I'm responding to in all cases. "Any further comments [from the accused] will lead to a block"?? So it's ok to vilify me, but not OK for me to put any of it in context? If so, then per my just-now comments in response to Uyvsdi's continued hounding of me below will see me blocked by the time I wake up (it's 1:51 am where I am) - and the discussion she's quoting from will go quiet and the issues and guidelines I have brought to the front burner will be left gather dust in archive-space. Upshot: nothing done except tossing out of Wikipedia a highly productive contributor with a great amount of knowledge and dedication, as many others have observed, despite my prolix manner, I've done one hell of a lot of work in many areas.
Why toss me out? Because I dared defend myself against unfair criticism, and dared to dispute guidelines that are flawed by pointing out how they are in violation of major guidelines? Is that how wikipedia works? I'm not the one trying to waste time by delaying or obstructing RMs, I'm trying to correct things that were recklessly done in the name of those inadequate guidelines (one in particular, whose advocates are the real problem here); it was Uysvdi's own actions at Category:Squamish et al who precipitated my taking things to proper procedure to get the matter properely addressed. Instead of y'all continuing to justify your intent to ban me here, why don't you actually have a look at the points raised in the RMs and in the NCET discussion and take part in it, instead of aiding a very partisan opponent in her campaign to prevent me from continuing to try and raise the issues of those guidelines. If you do vote to block me, you are being played ..... and the guidelines will go uncorrected and will continue to be abused by those who perpetuate their misapplication and inadequacies, and Kwami will go have a beer and a laugh.
Other editors have observed to me privately that ANI and the like are habituated by people who like to exert power, who like to say no, who like to pick people apart unfairly...... who relish their roles as jury, judge and executioner......prove me, and them, wrong.Skookum1 (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I was in part responding to a message on my talk page that nothing would happen and that I was wasting people's time. Here's posts from yesterday/today:
  • (directed at User:Kwamikagami): Edit summary: "pfft, you're hardly the one to talk about 'workign with other people'", talk: "why do you continue to pretend that any further discussion is needed when you have resisted, stonewalled, and derided any attempt to discuss anything and indulged in endless and repeated derisions and insults?" diff and "The further point, constantly rejected by "global English chauvinists..."
  • (also directed at User:Kwamikagami): "Your own attitudes towards native people in last year's RMs "we don't have to care waht they think" are both un-wikipedian and against guidelines. It's also worth noting that a lot of the native endonyms are plurals, in fact I'd be hard pressed to think of one that isn't. Your attempt to shut me out of a discussion you yourself invited me to is all too typical of your behaviour and bad attitude and is yet another AGF on your part. Will you ever address actual issues instead of wheedle and wiklawyer by habit of being obstructionist and endlessly seeking to defray discussion rather than actually listen to it???? It is you who are "disruptive" and it is you who deserve the nasty epithets you wielded at me, here and elsewhere." diff
  • (still directed at User:Kwamikagami): ""Or do you mean stop taking part in pointing out issues and precedents you persistently ignore by attacking and sniping at me?? Points, since I know you have difficulty, like so many here, with reading blocks of sustained argument and topic points..." and "Let me bold the critical phrase for you, since you have comprehension problems it seems..." and " I'm talking straightforward references to guidelines, you are making accusations and distortions and now "shut up and go away" subtexts "will you stop now?" Why don't YOU stop refusing to recognize widespread consensus that is based on, as CBW has observed more than once, guidelines that you just want to ignore or nitpick by whatever means; when confronted by them you attack me...." and " "Why don't you stop now?" indeed. YOU are the stonewaller - and "white man speak with forked tongue" also." diff.
The last line, wth??! We're in the 21st century. -Uyvsdi (talk) 13:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
You really don't have any sense of irony at all do you??? That comment was because Kwami is, as always, twisting what people say to claim it means something else- something you have done to me yourself re the "people" issue I raised in a guideline and you came back as if I were talking about TWODABS, which it was clear I was not. I'm a white man, and I don't engage in such dishonest behaviour as we so persistently see from Kwami, who you are bizarrely defending here as though he were a victim and not a persistently disruptive and obstructionist quibbler (there's other words I can use, but...). Why don't you address the guidelines and consensus points I raised there instead of coming here and giving my responses to Kwami instead of also the b.s. he was dishing out so as to avoid discussing those same guidelines and issues that you won't condescend to admit to, though dozens of RMs, as Cuchulainn has observed and I quoted there, have already spoken loud and clear. You don't want a discussion, and you don't want a "consensus" with someone about guidelines and precedent-setting RMs, you want to silence that discussion by blocking the person who brought all those guidelines and issues up and has had success in getting others to listen, though you won't even answer me, but you do want to talk ABOUT me, out of context, so as to have me banned. So those discussions will go nowhere, and you can claim that "consensus" is on your side. To achieve that consensus you have come here to enlist a firing squad......Skookum1 (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
You say you're avoiding me, but you're obviously still bent on hounding me, and continue to be "just fine" with Kwami's ongoing snipes and tendentiousness at that guideline "discussion" where CBW and I are trying to talk about guideline issues and changes that need addressing in the wake of, as observed by Cuchulian, "consensus has spoken" across a whole slew of RMs mandating that changes that I tried to make and you claimed "no consensus" when reverting........your silence on questions concerning the terms "preferred" and "unambiguous" speaks to your lack of unwillingness to enter discussions about actual guidelines that you and those who concocted NCL and now seek to stonewall NCET from the changes mandated across dozens of RMs...my retorts to Kwami are all correct, and your unwillingness to address his ongoing taunts and the insults he copy-pasted across those RMs is proof to me of your one-sidedness and your intent to continue to harangue about me while it's me who's bringing forward the issues that the consensus you say does not exist has clearly already mandated.
Your hypocrisy on the "FOO people" issue in re-creating Category:Squamish against consensus on a category title you knew very well, if you had indeed read the CfDs as you claim to have, was contentious and controversial in the extreme, and happened only a few weeks after Montanabw suggested we stay out of each other's way, me out of Nevada and the Southwest, you out of areas you know I'm active in i.e. BC native categories, the system for which I am, yes, one of the principal architects. You waded into a controversy on a subject/title that you know very little about and on the basis that "FOO people" was ambiguous - your word precisely, and ratehr than address that you rudely deleted my attempt to raise it with you, just as you had refused to listen to reasons why Category:Skwxwu7mesh was valid per TITLE/CONSISTENCY/PRECISION and yes, it is very ironic that you would seek to retrench a "colonialist" name instead of going with CONSISTENCY to return it to the native form that was created by an indigenous artist and activist of some note.
That you also unhatched a PRIMARYTOPIC dispute over the town/district of Squamish is not incidental; precedents on "town-people" pairs continue to be resolved in favour of the town; you waded into somewhere you had no knowledge of, and refused when I did try to broach it with you, as recreator of the "new" (previously deleted by consensus) category
Using me as an excuse to not create native artist bios is, quite frankly, pathetic. Create them, I rarely work on artist bios of any kind......no doubt you will point to this as another so-called "personal attack" when you tolerate Kwami's direct insults and stonewalling right and left is just proof to me of your partisanism and not giving the full context of why I was responding as I did to Kwami - and JorisV, who also has been extremely tendetious and oppositional and also refusing to address guidelines.
CBW is right, I'm passionate about what I believe is best for wikipedia and that I'm very frustrated with the stonewalling and derision coming from the NCL camp and speak my mind about the obstinacy and pissy - tendentious - responses I get, which often contain overt or soft-pedalled personal attacks and condescensions of all kind. Kwami has tried to shut down the discussions that, with some exceptions due to PRIMARYTOPIC reasons, now have established consensus, as observed by Cuchulainn, for the amendments to NCET and NCL that you refuse to address (through your silence) and which Kwami is turning, time and again, to attacks on me, including twisting what Cuchalainn had said to pretend it agreed with him which it did not in the course of, once again, to stonewall addressing the issues that not just me, but CBW, has raised.
There is much more background behind Usyvdi's selections against me above, including the recent ones from NCET (where she does not post the material I was responding to), that point to an overall pattern of obstinate and hostile BAITing that is very much along the lines of Kwami's failed attempts to block last year's RMs. Among these were my attempts to raise the issue of indigenous endonyms at IPNA, only to be pushed aside with "we've got more important things to do" without even telling me about NCET or, if that was before NCET came into existence, the relevant section at NCP it was transferred from or the discussions going on about it on the NCP talkpage.
No doubt my 'failure' to shut up as instructed above is going to be yet another stroke held against me; but if I can't defend myself against a one-sided witchhunt when others who do much worse, and persistently continue to obstruct and oppose and also insult and deride me......ack.... if that's the case, then Wikipedia consensus is more of a kangaroo court than rational discussion, and issues are being ignored while the bearer of the person who is bringing them forward, wanting them addressed when they have not been, and you refuse yourself to deal with them (Uyvsdi) never mind condescend to discuss them;
I have produced view stats, googlesearches, guideline citations, and been responded to with silence/inaction on your part and continued WP:BAITing me by Kwami, and now seeing you cherrypick my responses to him as more evidence of why you want me banned from Wikipedia, raises again my original point that this is a highly partisan and one-sided ANI and is really harassment, and nothing else. Well, it's not nothing else if you do succeed in having me thrown out like Kauffner has been....interestingly it was his tendentiousness that created the Squamish imbroglion in the first place, what with his very hasty speedy CfD and TfD to "Squamish" right after the initial RM there were ill-informed claims were made to justify changing a title that had stood for six years
as with other native endonym RMs/ closures and guidelines raised in them have demonstrated, "Skwxwu7mesh" did address all of the bits of TITLE that NCET and NCL, which you refuse to allow proper reforms to - reverting saying "no consensus" but refusing to discuss anything towards that consensus discussions where, other than having to respond to Kwami's ongiong nastinenss, I'm being very "rational" and specific about guidelines and precedents.
If my need to voice my defenses here, or against Kwami and his wikilawyering and tendentiousness at NCET and elsewhere, is used as a reason to call me a "diva" and throw TLDR at me as if it were a criminal offence, with capital punishment awaiting me if I dare to speak again, or to respond to you, then it underscores my point that wikiquette, and not content, is the primary governing module of the Wikipedia "backroom".....making an editor the issue instead of the content is boilerplate for discussion pages.
The Squamish issue that you waded into either without knowing what you were doing, or as deliberate BAITing is not dead; it will come back if not by me by others; it was in fact, your observation in doing what you did there that prompted me to address address moving via RM back all the NCL-instigated "people" additions on indigenous articles, and also those RMs for Canadian unique placenames-take-no-dabs per WP:CSG#Places that led to the growth of WP:CANLIST considerably this last two weeks, including the Squamish-parallels Lillooet, Chemainus, Sechelt and Tsawwassen, among others (Comox looks at this point as though it will close in favour of the town), and where PRIMARYTOPIC has not been shown to be the people, who themselves self-identify differently from the towns and regions which are the modern primary topic of those names.
Squamish is no different, the problem there is that any attempt to talk reason there is drowned out by ongoing attacks against me....including from those other people whose personal attacks you show no interest in replicating, only singling out my responses in the course of your attempt to get me banned from Wikipedia. So that, it seems, silence will fall on discussions to reform NCET and NCL and that you and Kwami can claim that "consensus" means that those guidelines will stay the way they are.
If your intent here was simply to provoke me to more necessarily longish responses to your one-sided complaints against me, you have won. If defending myself against ongoing obstructionism and insults means that my voice has gotten sharp, it is a measure of frustration with the lack of comprehension or respect that this is all about. I know my subject material very well (which you do not, as you displayed re Squamish), and because of all the RMs required to fix what you will not, I'm getting to know guidelines pretty damned well too. Disruptive behaviour and tendentious, obstructionist conduct in discussions by your cohorts go unaddressed and uncommented upon by you, yet you make a point of continuing to defend them as if they were victims and do nothing about them and single my responses to them out. Your attempt to turn a point of mine into something else re "people" vs TWODABS somewhere seems typical; you didn't even apologize for that; changing the meaning of what someone has said I've seen lots of before, it may have been a lack of comprehension of what I had said, but given the overall pattern of picayune wikilawyering and ostructionism I am seeing and continue to see', it's me that's being victimized here, as elsewhere.
I'm trying to improve Wikipedia by correcting out-of-date titles and addressing guideline issues that, frankly, the "old consensus" at IPNA did long ago until it was ignored by some who knew better; you only got here in 2009, long after Luigizanasi and Phaedriel and the others who established the conventions re titles and category names retired or went inactive. And now rather than fess up to the realities of those guidelines, you refuse to discuss them and are trying to silence their main proponent, who has been getting NCL-instigated titles corrected right and left. It is you who are not willing to properly discuss issues, not me. Instead of discuss these issues, you continue in your campaign to have me blocked and continue to be one-sided about what I say in response to ongoing obstructionism and attacking me instead of discussing the issues I raise, without ever addressing what it was that got said that I was responding to. That is tendentious, clearly hostile, and disruptive in the extreme; rather than talk to me and try to seek ground, you continue to talk about me, relentlessly, and continue to remain silent on the atrocious behaviour of Kwami and the more soft-pedalled but persistent derision from JorisV and others; it appears not only white men speak with forked tongue. Oh, is that a personal attack? I don't think it is, I think it's totally fair given your one-sidedness in this matter, your hypocrisy on "FOO people" re Squamish and re "preferred" and "unambiguous" at NCET, and the way you are indulging in your right to speak here, knowing that the TLDR mindset already heard here means that if I do speak to defend myself, that will damn me further. In other words, and per my "kangaroo court" comment above, the accused does not have a right to speak, and anything they have done will be held against them........conflated out of all context and irrelevant to the content issues those comments came from.
I've done a mammoth amount of work here, despite the campaign to systematically obstruct and, it seems, BAIT me, and during the course of this ANI, which I've been trying to ignore as t he partisan witchhunt I still maintain it to be. That you are spending more time attacking me here than actually addressing the consensus that has emerged (due to my assiduousness in pursuing these issues, item by item, guideline by guidline) speaks worlds about the contrast between "wiki-idealists" like myself and "wiki-bureaucrats" that I have seen comments on in various places.
I've tried to talk common sense and guidelines and facts and been treated with derision and insults, and by yourself the back of the hand when I try to raise issues with you; long before the NV categories thing it seems, you've had it in for me......and now, seeing my success in putting NCL on the hotseat where it belongs, overturning its false premises in RM after RM after RM, this ANI was launched against me, while you continue to refuse to discuss issues or guidelines, and Kwami continues to insult and wheedle endlessly and tries to turn my words against me, per his usual inimitable....and you take notes and come running here to report back my responses to him. I'm the one talking guidelines and better content; all you are trying to do is muzzle me so those guideline and content issues will remain unadressed....and maybe so you can go start writing those BC native-artist articles you blame me for you not starting bios on. Hmpf. Skookum1 (talk) 18:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I must say, in Skookum's defense, that he does make a large number of valuable edits, and WP is on the whole better off for his presence. But it's no longer possible to have an intelligent, or civil, conversation with him: Any disagreement is proof of "perversion". There's one article (Comox people) where the last time he was on the talk page he had agreed with me, that we should use the assimilated English spelling Comox, but now he's changed his mind, and thinks that we should use the "native" spelling, K'omoks (though this isn't the native Comox name, but the name one of their neighbors uses for them!). Since he's changed his mind, without so much as a mention of that fact on the talk page, all the people he used to agree with are now racist, recalcitrant, obstructionist, etc., as if somehow all our opinions should stay in sync, without any discussion, even when we change them, and any divergence of opinion is willful disruption. You can't reason with an attitude like that. — kwami (talk) 18:51, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

    • Apparently you can't reason with someone who just doesn't know about the topic at hand, as you have just demonstrated, and who cherry picks former opinions, now changed because unlike you I actually go do some research on the topics rather than just guideline-toss without knowing anything like you do.....
    • 1) if you knew about this people and their current state, their name is adopted, as is their modern language, which is Lik'wala, the language of the Laich-kwil-tach or Lekwiltok; Island Comox as a language is dead, and these people have adopted the language of their neighbours, and the name given to them in that language; I used to think the name was a derivation of the Chinook Jargon word for dog kamuks, referring to the dog breed once raised for wool in Contact and pre-Contact times (now extinct)
    • 3) but it turns out that the name is in fact Lik'wala ("Southern Kwakiutl") and not of "Comox" origin at all (their original name in their now-dead language was Sahtloot). Which is why it is unsuitable and incorrect for the Sliammon/Tla A'min, Homalco and Klahoose (the "Mainland Comox"), who obviously have not adopted Lik'wala unlike their Island counteparts.
    • 4) K'omoks IS the native name used by this people, who explain this all on their webpage, which by your comments it appears you disdain to have read. I'm the one with local, modern expertise and aware of the complexities of the native cultural/political revival, you are the one relying on "facts" and terminologies from old books.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Some sanction needed. AFAICR, I first encountered Skookum1 when I was trying to help clear the CFD backlog, and spotted a CFD which had been open for weeks. When I looked at the page, it was obvious why it was open: the extraordinary verbosity of the nominator Skookum1 had produced a discussion which no sane admin would even try to read, unless they had a masochistic desire for a prolonged headache.
    My closure (as consensus to keep, on account of the nom having tried to bludgeon everyone else out of the debate) was challenged on my talk by Skookum1, who was again verbose and rambling. I responded that I had nothing to add to the close, but that deletion review was open; and then I closed the discussion. Skookum1 stil posted again anyway, and I promptly reverted that post.
    What we see in this discussion is more of the same extraordinary verbosity, blaming everybody else for the conflicts which surround Skookum1's editing. I agree with User:The Bushranger's comment that Skookum1 appears to be out to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Whatever the merits of his case, his style of communication prevents consensus formation. It's not just the number of words, but the failure to structure them with sub-heads or bullet points, and the rambling mixtures of substantive points with complaints about other editors.
    Unless Skookum1 radically changes his approach, I don't see how can work collaboratively. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:25, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
    • BHG, this last few days I've been making a point of bulleting comments or at least separating them into paragraphs as on last night's responses here; I did so also on the Squamish CfD re TITLE's and NCET's various points relating to that discussion and still got hammered and BLUDGEONed for the "walls of text" complaint.
      • 1) I have bulleted on RMs this last week, and also on the NCET guideline discussion; where instead of addressing those points, Kwami turned Cuchulains closing comment on Talk:Lillooet#Requested move on its head, claiming it agrees with him which it does not, and continuing to resist discussion by slagging me instead; distorting and misrpresenting things I've said just as he has done again immediately above.Skookum1 (talk)
      • 2) Your own bad call on the Squamish issue I will make no direct comment on here; the PRIMARYTOPIC research has been done on that title and will be addressed again in the light of a couple of dozen related and now closed/moved RMs, where I was not made the target of the decision, and what I had to say listened to, and the irrelevancy of the "oppose" votes refuted by other participants. Skookum1 (talk)
      • 3) IMO people who don't know about a subject area who wish to dispute PRIMARYTOPICs on things and places they have no real acquaintance with should neither comment/vote nor close unless they are prepared to learn about the topic and address the issues raised. The "I don't have time to read that" cant that I'm hearing is a sorry excuse for proper discussion of encylopedia contents....I have local expertise as many have observed; this is regularly derided or, as too often the case, passed over without being read by people who, if pressed for time or a lack of effort to learn about the subject, should not be voting or closing. The mess this has created I spent a lot of time and energy trying to correct, and with a few holdouts the consensus emerging underscores all I've been saying in each and every RM and CfD.....Skookum1 (talk)
      • 4) I've changed my style of posting, but am still being BAITed into the necessary responses against ongoing deflection and the very evident campaign to exclude me from Wikipedia altogether, as per example of Uysvdi's quoting of me last night without including the pejorative and misleading/distorted comments I was responding to. Despite Kwami's disclaimer above that he doesn't want to see me banned from Wikipedia I have good reason to doubt that as being any more honest than his persistent dishonesty and misrepresantations for a very long time now; He hasn't changed his ways, in fact he's being even more reactionary and hostile than ever, and Usyvdi continues to look for things I've said while ignoring the things said that prompted them....one-sidedness on display in extremis.....and I've just wasted another hour of my life on people who are trying to railroad me.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Some sanction needed Skookum does make some positive contributions but these sorts of comments are entirely unacceptable [20]. Neither can I say I found accusations against me of wikilawyering terrible positive[21][22]. If Skookum can turn down the snarkiness of his comments, and maybe make his comments more brief, than I believe he would be a positive contributor. However, the negativeness of his comments is currently obstructive.--Labattblueboy (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Your obstructive behaviour on various RMs, including ones now closed against your opinion, comes off as snarky itself.....and yes, you are wikilawyering, that's not an accusation that's by the definitions given on WP:Wikilawyering, using guidelines out of context and not in the spirit in which they were written. The FIFTHPILLAR "there are no rules" is violated every time someone tries to turn a single guideline point into "policy" and use it as an iron-fast rule to obstruct a needed and rightful change/reversion as you persistently are doing there, and have done in other RMs as well.Skookum1 (talk)
    • the guidelines that allowed Sta7mes in the first place, which you are so hotly resisting return to the original title (as called for by guidelines when there is an intractable dispute) which were consensus-driven by many editors of that time, including that page's/title's author, you persist in denying, calling Canadian dab standards "irrelevant" and continuing to tub-thump on the use of /7/ in that title; which is specious and you still do not continue to address the other primary example of a non-English character in a title in teh same region, in fact just down the road - the colon in Sto:lo. I'm the one talking guidelines as a whole, you're the one zeroing in on only one aspect of the title and IMO misinterpreting and abusing that guideline despite the ambibuities and dab problem of the current title.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

New personal attacks on Jimbo's page[edit]

Skookum1 is now posting even more inappropriate remarks on Jimbo's page. [23][24]Neotarf (talk) 11:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, we have precedent, with Giano. Except that Giano's content is better and his commentary less obnoxious. Guy (Help!) 17:34, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know Giano and I don't know Skookum, but Giano has never gone out of his way to WP:BITE me. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Site ban proposal for User:Skookum1[edit]

This discussion has now gone on for more than 8 days and 10,000 words. Skookum1 doesn't seem to be able to participate without massive disruptions across multiple forums. Blocks have been tried and they didn't work. The attacks continue, even as the spotlight is trained on him and even more editors continue to express their concerns. Skookum1 can't stop. I propose a site ban. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose a site ban. When personal attacks are pointed out and the individual decides to ignore the problem and cast further aspersions there is no way to work with it. I believe they will be a continuing disruption and further time sink if nothing is done. I do believe an indef block should be applied. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure how an indef block compares to a site ban. Can one of you say why one makes more sense than the other? In the mean time, Skookum1 keeps up the denial and attacks here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
And you continue your disruptive and tendentious opposition there and elsewhere, on topics you really know nothing about. The denials are from people such as yourself who ignore guideline citations, e.g. you calling me "tilting at guidelines" when it's a guideline you asked for, and now seek to evade addressing. This is all too typical with what's going on, including the fielding of two-word alleged PRIMARTOPICS as if valid, when the are not. That others support my proposals and also cite guidelines (that you and others ignore or seek to bypass/talk around) and also are capable of reading my writing without treating it as a criminal offence, is also well-established as fact; that RMs have been opposed by certain individuals without any basis in guidelines or actual reality apparently because it was me who proposed them hasn't stopped 95% of them from being decided in "my" favour. The accusational and adversarial environment caused by such knee-jerk opposition is the real problem herr, not me.Skookum1 (talk) 05:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
My comments have been about the requested moves, not about you; the words you quote are not mine; I have not proposed any primarytopics. Face reality, please. Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
If you had no PRIMARYTOPICs to propose, then why were you claiming the obvious (to a Canadian, and others who actually read googlestats and view stats) PRIMARYTOPIC was not viable? Why are you obstructing those RMs? So that "no consensus/not moved" would be the result?Skookum1 (talk) 05:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Responsive to Dicklyon's question, see Wikipedia:Banning policy#Difference between bans and blocks. A user who is banned is not technically prevented from editing (but any edits can be deleted on sight). A user who is banned and continues to edit anyway generally ends up indef blocked. These typically go hand in hand. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Also if the user stops commenting on contributers instead of the material the indef is easily removed. The editor is constructive for the most part, just not cordial. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
If those contributors have done "bad things" in the course of misapproprating titles as they have been doing, it's perfectly valid to criticize them and call them on their actions, and also on their obstructiveness/disruptiveness. I'm the one whose personality is under attack here, on the basis of (alleged) personality alone. Your comment is just more one-sided tub-thumping.Skookum1 (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • @Neotarf's proposal "The attacks continue, even as the spotlight is trained on him and even more editors continue to express their concerns." And the evasions of guidelines and attempts to block RMs continue, the disruptive behaviour is coming from the mob of oppositioinists who opposed just to oppose, without substance. And more and more editors also voice to me their support in the face of the atmosphere of witchhunt that is going down and the ongoing and persistently disruptive campaign against needed and valid RMs is the real "time sink" that this has taken. Harassing me officially in order to stop me from posting such RMs is the real agenda here.Skookum1 (talk) 05:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There are certainly issues with Skookum1's inability to avoid major drama when dealing with those he disagrees with, but leaping to a site ban from no current block whatsoever is the "cart before the horse". He can be blocked if he cannot drop the diva persecution stance, but no site ban is needed at this time. Blaming everyone else for your conflicts is all well and good, but hardly realistic. Doc talk 05:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Doc9871. During the past 2.5 years, he appears to have been blocked only once, and that was for only 48 hours.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    There's also a disturbing loophole in WP:3RRNO when it comes to even thinking about banning someone with as many prolific positive contributions as this user. It says under #3: "Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users." The first part of the instruction surely seems to indicate that any user who has subsequently become banned can have all of their edits reverted by anyone at anytime, regardless of whether those edits were good or not. That's around 82,000 edits since 2005 that would suddenly be eligible for deletion were he to be community banned, 60% of them in article space. Community bans are for the worst of the worst. The extreme measure of a community ban should be carefully considered. Doc talk 09:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - I would generally oppose a ban proposal that is put forward by one side of the dispute. Banning someone for verbosity is entirely inappropriate. Getting Skookum off their pedestal is one thing, but unleashing a wrecking ball to knock him off is overkill. Blackmane (talk) 16:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
This AN/I was initiated due to nonstop personal attacks (all well documented above), which have continued throughout the process despite repeated warnings from a range of individuals, not verbosity. There has to be a compromise between doing nothing (current situation) and a site ban. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Your conflations of criticisms of actions and words in violation of guidelines as alleged "NPA" has been biased all along; you always don't include the personal attacks and obstructionism I encountered in each case; said personal attacks being something you very evidently tolerate on a very partisan basis; and my comments in return were well-deserved, including your very rude "Get a life!" edit comment when deleting my attempt to broach you double standard on the "FOO people" issue, i.e. your aggressive and untoward re-creation of the Category:Squamish and your attempt to coopt the main category Category:Squamish people to conform to your point that "FOO people" is for "people who are FOO".
I continue to work on articles and also on the RMs of the same kind I have been regularly opposed, whether by Kwami or others, with Kwami tossing out regular NPAs and somewhere Maunus stating the very AGF "we can't take Skookum1's word for it", even though it was concerning a topic area in which I am one of the main contributors and wiki-experts. You want "compromise"? Why don't you back off and stop with the DEADHORSE routine? You continue to rant against me, and look for contributions/discussion comments you can come running back with here to rail at me yet again. I have supporters on Jimbo's talkpage, about the "he has no right to speak here" cant that is a feature of this ANI, and also other support in the face of "the trolls" has also been voiced, and "Wikipedia needs you", also;
My rights to criticize the unfairness of this process, and your own hypocrisy and partisanship, and the "lynch mob" mentality seen in the relentless personal criticism here, when I've been arguing guidelines and consensus which you yourself refuse to discuss. Banning me is an extreme measure; the compromise is to WP:DISENGAGE which I have been trying to do, other than replying here to yet-another-conflation and one-sided cherrypicking and talking of my UserContributions..........I'm the one trying to be CIVIL and being met by hostility over and over and over again (including copy-pastes of derisive comments in the course of "oppose" votes)
Suppressing free speech? Is that what you are wanting to do? That I can't speak my mind in face of overt hostility and one-sided and out-of-context links to my responses to ongoing NPA and AGF, including from you, seems to be what you want; that I should humble myself and tone down my discussion of guidelines that have been violated, and actions taken to disrupt their proper implementation (including NPA and AGF comments in the RMs, right and left)..... that any criticism of bad actions, and dishonest ones as was sometimes the case, is automatically branded "NPA" without any action taken in regard to the NPAs made against ME - and what you want is to censor me, to shut me up?? To stop me from fielding RMs and trying to discuss guidelines that are much in need of review; I'm not the one who is being "disruptive" and "tendentious" by comparison, not by a long shot.
"Some action must be taken" could start with your own acknowledgement of the highly productive results of the RMs I have filed, and incorporating them into your wiki-view or "right action". I have been harassed by the people my responses above you have cited, and persistently by yourself, here and elsewhere. There is no reason to ban me, I'm out in the trenches doing constructive work despite the "time sink" of endless procedures which have been dragged out needlessly based on spurious and unsubtantiated and anti-guideline PRIMARYTOPIC disputes, and defending myself here. You have resisted working with me, insulted me in the course of that resistance, and now are positing my responses to people who have regularly insulted and badgered/obstructed me as if I were the only guilty party. It's not me who's the DIVA here, in my estimation. Skookum1 (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding "we can't take Skookum1's word for it" — no one takes anyone's word for anything here. Cited sources are necessary for articles, and diffs are required here. I've furnished over a dozen diffs of your personal attacks, and others, including yourself, have provided more examples. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:33, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
I can't remember just now where Maunus said that, but it was on a BC topic or BC indigenous topic of some kind....that is a direct AGF statement, and totally out of line since I've been here since 2005 and my known expertise in topics in my region is well established (as others will attest, and my editing record will demonstrate amply). That may have been in reference to the "old consensus", which if not for this ongoing harassment I would have drafted up by now on the IPNA talkpage or a sandbox thereof, and in which I took part, including in the establishment of indigenous categories in BC and elsewhere, and in title-format discussions; why would I have reason to make such a thing up? You are being every bit as AGF as that comment; why should you be believed? It's time for you to WP:DISENGAGE, Uyvsdi, and go start those native-artist biographies you blame me for you not starting; more AGF.Skookum1 (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Uyvsdi, going between one extreme to another is not beneficial. It is generally acknowledged that Skookum1 does good work but does have issues in a few areas. Drawing a line in the sand benefits nobody. Seriously, Skookum1, please dial back on the verbosity of your posts. Personally, I make a point of reading as much, if not everything, of what an editor writes as I can, but even that tendency gets exhausted eventually.