Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive836

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Disruption and malicious editing[edit]

The discussion largely turned toward the OP right from the beginning and failed to develop a consensus against either USchick or IZAK. Likewise, once the discussion did turn, the discussion also failed to develop a consensus against Direktor. This thread has surpassed any chance of usefulness.--v/r - TP 06:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requesting assistance with the current state of affairs at Jews and Communism. The article is, in my view, being deliberately sabotaged by vocal advocates of its deletion, in order to facilitate future nominations. Particularly the users USchick (talk · contribs) and IZAK (talk · contribs), with the assistance of Galassi (talk · contribs) as an edit-warring proxy. A good example of the "sabotage" is the current campaign to deliberately prevent the article from sporting any lead image.

First, a poster depicting Leon Trotsky (in a positive light as the guardian of Russia), has been removed for being "anti-Jewish propaganda", even though it was in fact - issued by Trotsky himself (i.e. the Soviet Union under Lenin and Trotsky). Now, a photograph of Karl Marx is being removed from the lede on such grounds as "Marxism is not Communism" and "Marx was not a Jew, because he was baptized" (even though there are a half-dozen refs in the article stating the renowned philosopher was, in fact, "a Jew", and none stating otherwise). It used to be "Marx is not mentioned in the article, hence we can't have him in there", until he was actually mentioned in the article. Now of course the objection shifts.

In short, one argument more absurd than the other, essentially pro forma to allow for the clique to edit-war anything they oppose out of the article, and essentially keep it without a proper lede and lede image. See this thread, and this one in support of my above outline. Here's a quote of the latest post, to illustrate my point:

This article was the subject of an unsuccessful AfD nomination, and, very quickly afterwards, a DELREV review. Participants in support of its deletion are now very active at the article, and are stonewalling proposals to improve its quality. I hope to find out whether our illustrious ANI corps regards their arguments as honest and justified, or whether they are, in fact, malicious disruption with a mind to future deletion attempts. -- Director (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

As regards USchick, I would like to suggest for consideration the possibility of a topic ban on communism, independent of this issue. Please review the (frankly appalling) exchanges like this one, or, just now, posts like this. -- Director (talk) 20:23, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think that "disagreeing with Director" is evidence of deliberate sabotage. By the way, wondrous text like "The philosopher Karl Marx was a descendant of two rabbinic families." in the Karl Marx caption should be on some racist blog, not an encyclopedic article based on secondary sources. Johnuniq (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Huh? How is it racist to say someone is a descendant of rabbinic families? Also, the term "Jew" is not purely religious. There are Jews who self-identify as atheist, so it's not necessarily contradictory to describe a Christian as a Jew. Howunusual (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I propose the communism/jews topic ban for DIREKTOR himself, on the basis of habitual pushing of antisemitic POV.--Galassi (talk) 21:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, the best way to solve the problems of this article is an AfD as it is a first class battleground. And secondly, I am not entirely convinced that the information is true and properly balanced. The Banner talk 23:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq. As a matter of fact, I revised the caption, which was introduced in the first place as a response to talkpage claims that Karl Marx wasn't Jewish (which are, btw, actually offensive to Jewish people as well as untrue: Karl Marx was a great philosopher). Then Galassi restored the caption you're reading [1].
Further, if you believe being descendant from historic rabbinical families is insulting, then I would suggest its your own views that belong in said racist blogs. Perhaps even more so through your implication that Jews are a "race".
As for "disagreeing" with me, I invite you to actually read the exchange.
@Banner. One dispute over an image? The article is actually pretty quiet compared to many that I've seen. If we deleted all articles that are "battlegrounds" by such standards, I dare say we'd halve the project. As far as I'm aware, Wiki is here to cover controversial and difficult topics as well as the rest: whether an article is warranted or not is hardly determined by the level of controversy its topic engenders. -- Director (talk) 23:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
No, the entire article seems shaky to me. The Banner talk 23:32, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
If you mean the text is disputed.. it really isn't. But this isn't the place for such discussion? -- Director (talk) 23:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure about how biased the other editors involved are, but by what I have read, I can't avoid noticing that Director is not very used to addressing actual arguments and frequently makes personal remarks, threats and fallacious arguments instead of presenting valid reasons to support his position. That can be easily noticed here: [2]. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh yes, I'm to blame..
That's only one of several discussions with USchick, I make no secret of the fact that I am very annoyed with the user's conduct - hence this thread. But I believe I have good reason: the user is extremely unfamiliar with the topic she's trying to discuss, but insists on her positions regardless (that's the mild formulation). Please read on past the first couple of posts (which basically amount to a groan of annoyance on my part at the prospect of another "discussion" with the user).
As Altenmann points out, talking to her is WP:CHEESE, its infuriating. In that exchange she basically demands that the poster be "Jewish", which baffles me since the person in it is a famous Communist of Jewish ancestry (Leon Trotsky). It quickly becomes apparent she never heard of Leon Trotsky, and upon my explaining who the person in the poster is, she continues to demand more "Jewishness", until Altenmann realized she was talking about the religion. Yes: she wanted a communist poster with the symbols of Judaism. Her reply was "Imagine that! Is that too much to ask?". I won't relay the whole discussion, but there's the gist of its first part. She moves on to how the person in the poster isn't really Trotsky, etc.
In my view, the user is simply opposed to the article, but nevertheless hangs around the talkpage - to block any attempts at expanding it or improving its quality. When the article was posted, she attempted to blank it almost entirely on grounds that "Marxism isn't Communism"; I'm not kidding: its a "theory" she still pushes on the talkpage right now! -- Director (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
You claim the person in the uniform is Trotsky, and the only actual reason you or someone else gave for that is his uniform. That's not necessarily a good reason to believe it's him since other people probably wore it too. Regarding the diff concerned, all I have seen is USchick ask for a good reason to identify the person in the picture as Trotsky, which is the only reason you gave to consider the poster jewish, and I think you failed to present any proof of your point. That doesn't mean I agree with any particular political view of USchick by the way. But since you presented that diff as an example of misbehavior by USchick, I think it speaks more against yourself than her. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 02:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
That's not quite accurate, please look closer: #1 the poster was obtained from image hosting websites listing it as a poster of Leon Trotsky, and links were provided. #2 The photograph of Trotsky apparently used as an inspiration for the depiction in the poster, has also been produced (he looks practically identical in the two). -- Director (talk) 11:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
It is unfortunate that Director, who otherwise is quite capable, loses objectivity when discussing Jews. He thinks the connection between Jews and Communism is self-evident and ignores that even if it is, we need sources to say that. I would suggest he avoid articles about Jews. I disagree with any action against USchick, IZAK or Galassi resulting from Director's complaint. TFD (talk) 06:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, TFD has never missed an opportunity to imply antisemitism on the part of those who oppose his various agendas. For him "its all about the Jews". To me, its about adding a damn lede image to one of our articles. He, USchick, IZAK, Galassi, these are all users vehemently opposed to the article, and, apparently, to any attempts at improving it. -- Director (talk) 11:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not necessarily wrong to oppose to an article. I myself, at reading the article, wonder why is it any more relevant than if someone created an article called Blondes and Communism. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 13:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Well of course. But if I don't think we need an article, I don't try to torpedo it if I don't have my way in the AfD.
As for "Blondes and Communism", the difference is - sources. There are numerous sources covering the topic of the article. There are none for "Blondes and communism", or "Brunettes and Communism", or "Hot-dog vendors and Communism", etc. :) I myself don't presume to decide which topic is relevant and which isn't: I see if scholarly sources think so or not. If you think its "racist" to draw such parallels, then I can only suggest you take it up with the sources (which, by the way, appear to be mostly Jewish scholars researching the phenomenon). Its also implied in these sort of comments that Communism is something "bad" (as opposed to "very, very good"), which is a view that millions and millions of people might disagree with. -- Director (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Like this source used to justify the poster. [3] A personal blog that describes a military uniform (Шинель) as a "red dress" hardly qualifies as a reliable source. USchick (talk) 18:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
*groooaan* They don't mean a female dress! Uggh.. Dress (noun): 1. a piece of clothing for a woman or a girl that has a top part that covers the upper body and a skirt that hangs down to cover the legs. 2. a particular type of clothing. As in "dress uniform".. for goodness sake. -- Director (talk) 20:37, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
A SHINEL is a MILITARY overcoat.--Lute88 (talk) 23:37, 8 April 2014 (UTC)23:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
She thought they mean a female dress, as in a gown. I've come to expect things like that from USchick. -- Director (talk) 16:10, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Response by User:IZAK[edit]

  1. User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) is a highly skilled, obviously extremely professional and highly knowledgeable editor who writes on a very high academic level and therefore I have enjoyed co-editing the Jews and Communism article with him. Prior to this I do not recall having any interactions with him. DIREKTOR has rightly been complimented for his extraordinary abilities many times. But when he enters controversial zones, he seems to be blind to the raging fires that are already built into such topics as "Jews and Communism" or "Communism and Jews" where it is vital to keep calm and avoid WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:LIBEL at all costs so that, as I have warned a number of times, WP not become like a shadow of the antisemitic and racist anti-Jews and anti-Judaism Jew Watch hate site God forbid! That much should be obvious. It is truly amazing how DIREKTOR manages to come up with mountains and myriads of sources on short notice as if he had a staff of people, or very good data bases backing him up. Well done, we don't know how you do it! Not everyone can be as efficient as DIREKTOR is and he often uses his skills and resources to swing articles his way and resulting in a WP:OWN syndrome, so that whenever he is challenged he complains bitterly and simply cannot fathom that other users may feel just as deeply and passionately as he does about a topic and also have the ability to go toe to toe with him, and while they may lack his resources and his ability to dredge up sources on short notice, they are not afraid to stand up to him if they can survive the frustration of his tactics, such as running to ANI when nothing is wrong about just some ongoing CONTENT disputes over a contentious topic with everyone behaving in line, albeit in a feisty spirit.
  2. The recent article Jews and Communism was created on 27 February 2014, by two determined users User PRODUCER (talk · contribs) and User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) who clearly and consistently violate WP:OWN in all their interactions with other users. For some or other odd reason they fail to see and blithely ignore the fact that this is a highly volatile and inflammatory topic that needs to be handled with utmost care and a high degree of WP:NPOV and skilled editing so that it not come across as a violation of WP:LIBEL in and of itself and that it not read like a mere accusatory "list" against Jews or anyone, as is self-understood by any truly neutral observer.
  3. To add insult to injury one can fairly say that this article was born in sin/controversy. See the AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (1 March 2104) with a huge majority of 22 users in favor of deletion, 3 to merge, and 14 to keep. That was then taken to DRV at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 March 14 with 17 users endorsing the closure and 14 voting to overturn it in favor of deletion. With the over-all topsy-turvy results, that in the AFD the minority won while in the DRV the minority lost.
  4. But be that as it may we all go on, and in my case in the AFD I had not voted to delete, rather, if possible, to save all content and redirect to History of Communism [4] [5] for the sake of better context and NPOV.
  5. There have also been several good faith suggestions by a variety of users on the talk page to rename the article into a more suitable NPOV name, see Talk:Jews and Communism#Proposed move; Talk:Jews and Communism#Alternative proposed move: Communism in Jewish history; Talk:Jews and Communism#Proposed move: Jews in the history of Communism, some resolved, some still wide open.
  6. I have been contributing to the article constructively since 13 March 2014 always striving for NPOV and to keep up with WP:RS and WP:V: [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12].
  7. I have added a number of sections to the article, some about other Jews who were communists and those who opposed them [13]; and about Jews as victims of Communism [14] [15] always using WP:RS and WP:V citations often found in other related articles as well.
  8. I tried to move the page to a more NPOV balanced title of Role of Jews in the rise and fall of Communism since many other articles deal with the topic this way [16] backing it up in a "See also" section with [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] but I was reverted. I did not agree but I accepted that even though the current title is very unclear and will always be a problem.
  9. I have always tried to engage User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) in good faith serious dialogue but he finds it difficult to communicate with an equal -- but that has not deterred me or others, see examples at Talk:Jews and Communism/Archive 1#Response by IZAK; Talk:Jews and Communism#Name change without consultation; Talk:Jews and Communism#Recent additions by IZAK disputed by Director; Talk:Jews and Communism#IZAK's draft; Talk:Jews and Communism#Rosenbergs; Talk:Jews and Communism#"Jews as victims of Communism" suggestions; Talk:Jews and Communism#Picture of Marx for the lede; Talk:Jews and Communism#Pic of Emma Goldman; Talk:Jews and Communism#Rosa Luxemburg and Spartacist League.
  10. As for the Trotsky poster File:Russian Civil War poster.jpg, that DIREKTOR would like in the lede, there is already one good photo of Trotsky in the article that I have never disputed. As was discussed in Talk:Jews and Communism/Archive 1#Edits by IZAK. The problem with it if left in the lede is that it is not truly NPOV because with one glance it automatically evokes a feeling of either "you hate Trotsky or you love Trotsky" (as it was meant to do as a propaganda poster) and is not suitable for setting the tone of an already volatile enough topic because it is a blatantly very controversial caricature. People can agree to disagree but it is not "obstructionism" and it does not belong on an ANI discussion.
  11. The issue about Marx, after long debate, seems to have been somewhat settled at this time (obviously, how it will develop no one can know). After my and others' initial objections, DIREKTOR finally added some lines about Marx's connection to Communism. No one disputes that at the age of 6 Marx was converted into Christianity by his father when he renounced his and his children's Judaism and at 16 Marx by free choice personally confirmed himself as a Christian and practiced as such, all before anything else Marx became famous for, and I created a section to deal with DIREKTOR's insertion and my additions with citations added, with the pic of Marx in it [23].
  12. As they say in the classics, DIREKTOR should stop over-reacting, quit demonizing other editors he does not agree with, stop the crankiness and deprecating lines, and return to the bargaining table of the talk pages and improving the article bit by bit and as best we all can together in the spirit of WP:CONSENSUS and most vitally WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

About the poster: I would like to point out that the red soldier in the poster is highly stylized, without very much detail in his uniform. Anyone who claims this person is Trotsky, lacks a basic understanding of communism, and maybe that's why Director is having trouble finding sources to support his novel idea. In communism, the individual, even the leader, is not at all important, as demonstrated by the credo "All for one and one for all." The reason it can't possibly be Trotsky, is because to single out any one individual in a communist movement (like a revolution) would destroy the movement. The soldier in the poster represents a regular soldier, part of the proletariat, which is much more important than any specific individual. As proof, you can see his sleeve. The uniform in the poster is very generic with no tabs on the sleeve. If this soldier were Trotsky, the uniform would have a tab on the sleeve showing the rank of an officer [24]. I respectfully request a topic ban for Director on the subject of Communism, since he lacks a basic understanding of the subject matter. USchick (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Director wrote above "Please review the (frankly appalling) exchanges like this one" and I did have a look at it, I agree that it is appalling, but not in the way Director means. Director wants to use a poster of a soldier in a red uniform dominating a map of parts of Eastern and Central Europe as an illustration of "Jews and communism". USchick wants to know how that image is an illustration of the topic. Director tells her it is because it is a drawing of Trotsky, who was Jewish, and refers her to two websites, which however when you click on the links, do not bring up that poster or a discussion of it. USchick thinks that is not an appropriate image to illustrate "Jews and communism" and Director responds by repeatedly insulting her.Smeat75 (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I see, having looked closer at those links Director provided, that if you search for that poster on them you will find it and they do say it is a drawing of Trotsky. This would not be obvious to readers though and it makes me wonder why Director wanted to use an image of a scary looking soldier dominating huge parts of Europe, brandishing a rifle with a bayonet on the end of it, and bringing his heavy boot down on grovelling people at his feet, as the lead image for an article on "Jews and communism".Smeat75 (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, either I'm posting fake links, or I'm trying to push some kind of sinister image. Typical. The image itself, once somebody clicks on it, naturally provides the source. Further, aside from the links, there's also the Photo of an Identical Trotsky.
To answer your second post, the caption says "Be on guard!", and its meant to show Trotsky guarding Russia from the foreign, pro-White interventionists who were invading it at that time, and also the Poles, who were also invading the country. Its a defensive pose, he's defending Russia, he's not shown "dominating" any part of (non-Russian) Europe ("Russia" was much bigger back then). The reason why Trotsky is in uniform, is because he is the founder and first commander of the Red Army, actually leading the military at that time.
Also, that's the only poster I could find of Trotsky, aside from this one. -- Director (talk) 20:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Considering that this is such a historic poster, is there a historical explanation that goes with it? From a reliable source? USchick (talk) 22:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean by "reliable sources" here? Are you seriously requesting a scholarly publication that covers obscure Russian Civil War posters?
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. The poster is obviously Trotsky, that's pointed out wherever the image is hosted, and there's the photograph of him looking exactly as in the poster. Yet its impossible to introduce it in the article due to WP:CHEESE arguments like that. -- Director (talk) 22:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
If you want to claim it's Trotsky in the poster, yes, you need a reliable source if you wish to make that claim. It could be lots of other people as well. [25] USchick (talk) 22:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Completely undaunted by the "dress" thing above, you just keep on going.
That's just more of your absurd, malicious WP:DISRUPTION. The person in the poster is effin' Trotsky. The sources are perfectly reliable for the confirmation of the blatantly obvious - why don't you present a source that its not Trotsky, considering everyone else in the world seems to think it is. If every image on this project required a scholarly publication as the only "reliable" source - we'd be left with twenty images. -- Director (talk) 23:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
That image, whether of Trotsky or anybody else, of a huge intimidating soldier bringing his boot down on pitiful, grovelling figures at his feet, is completely inappropriate as an illustration of "Jews" in any context at all. The fact that Director does not seem to see this makes me question if he should be editing articles connected to Judaism or Jews.Smeat75 (talk) 23:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Its not an illustration of "Jews". Its an illustration of a Jewish person defending his country against foreign incursion - issued by his own propaganda. The person was very much a military leader, as are many Jewish people. If Trotsky and his party thought it appropriate - who are you to say its somehow misrepresentative (though again, its supposed to be the "stomping" of aggressors). But all that is not the subject here, because you're voicing a completely different argument from what we saw on the talkpage. -- Director (talk) 23:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Is this argument really over which image to use in the lead of the article? What is wrong with the photo of Leon Trotsky that is on the article now? This seems like a talk page discussion and off of AN/I. Liz Read! Talk! 23:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Basically what I'm asking is a review of the arguments presented in the two discussions, as I hold them to be indicative of a pattern of disruptive conduct aimed at deliberately diminishing the article's quality. -- Director (talk) 23:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I have not seen any rs that says it is Trotsky. The artist, Dmitry Moor issued another poster in 1920, "Have you enlisted?", that has a similar figure. But rs says the figure represents a Russian soldier not Trotsky.[26] TFD (talk) 02:19, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  1. 1 Everyone says it Trotsky. #2 I don't see anything in your link. Does your source say its not Trotsky in that poster? -- Director (talk) 05:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Not everyone. Trotsky's uniform is not red. It's OR and wishful thinking to claim a soldier representing the Red Army [27] and wearing a coat that doesn't belong to an officer is Trotsky. See my first comment about why it's not him. It may look like Trotsky, but it also looks like Colonel Sanders [28]. I hope an admin can stop the madness. This is a perfect example of Director inventing history as he goes along and expecting everyone else to go along simply because he said so. USchick (talk) 05:47, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Getty images: Soldiers of Red Army hunting profiteers and foreign invaders, 1920, Poster by Dmitrij Moor (1883-1946), Russia, 20th century [29] No mention of Trotsky. USchick (talk) 06:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
If you click on image in your link it says, "Dmitrii Moor: Be on Guard! (1920) Moor produced over fifty political posters for the Revolutionary Military Council during 1919-1920. This one, showing Red Army defending the Russian border, appeared after the Russo-Polish war and warned that enemy armies--depicted as capitalists incited by a French officer and a Ukrainian hetman--may again invade. Source: Peter Paret, Beth Irwin Lewis, Paul Paret: Persuasive Images: Posters of War and Revolution from the Hoover Institution Archives. Princeton: Princeton University Press. 1992." No mention of Trotsky. Your argument that it could not have been Trotsky is convincing. He looks too manly. But we should not have to do that. Director should not have introduced this picture without evidence that it was Trotsky. TFD (talk) 06:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Director 's argument of "prove it's not Trotsky" is an inversion of the burden of proof. That blog is not a reliable source, not to mention it could even belong to Director, who knows? "Everyone" is not saying it's Trotsky, and also "everyone" does not constitute a reliable source even if they did. In the absence of real evidence and sources to support this picture, Director is making use of fallacies to try to prove his point. That may be a sign of a non-neutral point of view, otherwise why did Director not just leave the picture, since there are plenty of further ones in the article? GreyWinterOwl (talk) 12:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Once sources have been provided, the burden is on the user opposing them. Its an obscure poster, sure, but here's a zoomed in, full length version [30]. You might notice its signed "Л. Тро́цкий". Also, here's another hosting link (in addition to the two in the thread). Have you seen the photo? -- Director (talk) 15:15, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The poster is not "signed by L. Trotsky." The words printed on the poster are attributed to L. Trotsky. [31] USchick (talk) 16:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The poster is, in fact, signed by Leon Trotsky. -- Director (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Whether or not it is signed by Leon Trotsky does not prove that the figure in the picture represents him. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
In fact there is no signature. His name is printed under the message of propaganda attributed to him. Here's a higher resolution. [32] USchick (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't the discussion of this poster and the identity of the person depicted on it continue on the article talk page rather than here?Smeat75 (talk) 16:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Oh for god's sake.. its a printed signature, USchick.
@GreyWinterOwl. One could hypothetically raise the bar of "proof" on these things until it becomes such that we'd need to delete or exclude every single image on Wikipedia. I submit that:
  • three different websites hosting the image describe it as depicting Leon Trotsky.
  • that Leon Trotsky, leading the Red Army, appeared exactly as in the image [33].
  • that the poster is signed by Leon Trotsky.
And I hold that it is silly to demand some kind of scholarly publication in further evidence for an obscure 100-year-old poster. The general idea, as I thought, is to improve the quality of the article. -- Director (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • 3 different unreliable sources put together don't make a reliable source.
  • Is his face visibly Trotsky's face or just the uniform? Was he the only person to wear the uniform? Was that a military basic uniform of his troops?
  • The signature does not prove it is him on the picture. Mona Lisa is signed by Leonardo and obviously isn't his depiction.
If you think it's silly to demand a reliable source for anything in Wikipedia, then your concept of working on Wikipedia is very different from what I have understood from reading the guidelines. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The question here is about who is being disruptive. Director is pushing OR with no reliable sources about the identity of a cartoon and then claims that the cartoon is Jewish. Then he pushes OR that printed words L Trotsky are a signature. When presented with facts, he feigns reading comprehension and pushes more Synth and POV. USchick (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, clearly the websites are trying to slander Trotsky by implying he was a Communist? That must be their POV? Owl, its not the uniform: its the face in the uniform. Also, right off the bat, I could link some a hundred prominent Wikipedia images that have sources just as "reliable" as these.. some image hosting site or whatever.
Mind you, as a poster bearing Trotsky's message, it could justifiably be included even if its not him being depicted (as it obviously is).-- Director (talk) 16:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the process is for an uninvolved editor to register a constructive contribution to a discussion like this, so I'm just going to say here that the poster is quite clearly Trotsky and it's very confusing to understand why USchick is giving DIREKTOR what seems to be such a hard time about this, as if the goal might be to neutralization of possible inclusion of the poster by exhausting the participants w/ what appears to be WP:CHEESE, even as the article seems to merit a primary or lead image, which the poster would seem to be a good fit for. So again, I don't understand why USchick is giving DIREKTOR such an apparently/possibly-uncivilly hard time, despite my best efforts to understand by reading many of their comments. JDanek007Talk 23:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Asking for a reliable source is not giving someone a "hard time." USchick (talk) 23:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

To refocus the discussion on user conduct, I'd like to point out that this was first opposed as an anti-Jewish propaganda poster, then as a double depiction of Trotsky - and then as not depicting Trotsky. -- Director (talk) 16:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

An unidentified cartoon on a propaganda piece attributed to an atheist person from a Jewish family is the best image available for the lede in an article Jews and Communism. Synth? USchick (talk) 17:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
"Unidentified"? "Cartoon"? "Synth"? I swear, half the time I don't even know how to respond to your posts, USchick. -- Director (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Those 3 different objections to the picture are not necessarily self-contradictory. They may just mean that the picture is inappropriate for more than one reason and whether or not the cartoon depicts Trotsky. And I can't see any obvious similarity between the cartoon's face and Trotsky's except for the presence of a mustache, which I doubt is an exclusive remark as much as the uniform. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 17:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
That's a very narrow perspective, and naive, in my view. It doesn't correspond with the manner in which the arguments were presented. The goal is simply to keep the article from having a lede image - any lead image, and by any "arguments" necessary. When stock arguments ("its antisemitism!") turn out to be ridiculous, a poster is equated with a photograph and a double depiction is claimed. When that does not work, it is argued that its not Trotsky at all. When another image is posted, the story goes on ("Karl Marx was Christian!", "Karl Marx was not Communist", and so forth). Now, a photograph was removed from the lede on grounds that it should be less than 190px wide. -- Director (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I do agree that to oppose a Marx photo on an article about communism is silly. But that's not the image we are talking about. If the problem is having any lede image at all instead of the specific poster of a man in a red uniform, then I think the best way for you to try to prove your point is to forget the cartoon poster, about which I don't think you are right on your claims, and focus on real misbehavior by the people you accuse. Asking for a reliable source or proof that the cartoon depicts Trotsky is not misbehavior. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 18:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The article on Christianity prominently features Jesus, who was a Jew, not a Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Return of User:PRODUCER[edit]

The horse is dead, it's ceased to be. If you have legitimate evidence that this is puppetry, WP:SPI is thataway, but look out for boomerangs. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:48, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The "Director and Producer" sock/meat accusations have been beaten into the ground and long since refuted, multiple times. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:48, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NOTE: For the record, as this discussion unfolds, and after a relatively longish absence, now that User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) is bogged down in the very ANI discussions he initiated, all of a sudden his partner and virtual doppelganger User PRODUCER (talk · contribs), the original creator of this article, appears on the scene and starts to aggressively edit this controversial article. It is truly amazing how their names and work compliment each other as if in PRODUCING and DIREKTING a movie with a "producer" and a "director" with the virtually identical coordinated moves. Hopefully he will oblige us with a visit here soon. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 11:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The sockpuppet accusations have been brought up repeatedly and refuted repeatedly. Shalom11111 found himself in some rather hot water recently after doing this, and will likely be blocked if the accusation is repeated. I think you can essentially consider yourself in that same boat. Knock it off. Tarc (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi Tarc, I am not making any such accusations, just an obvious observation about a curiosity about the way Users PRODUCER (talk · contribs) and DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) compliment each other perfectly to the point where it is hard to know the difference between them on the work they do in unison "producing " and "directing" this article. That much should be obvious for anyone following the way the article was created and is being guided by DIREKTOR and PRODUCER in unison, neither of whom has had any know WP:EXPERTISE as regards the topic of Jews that I have been around for over eleven years on WP, that makes this all very odd, and even disturbing to some Wikipedians (we can agree to disagree, but you cannot stifle the troubling feelings of how and why this is so), to ignore this would be acting tone deaf to a not so subtle disturbing undercurrent. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I think this at the very least is a case of meatpuppetry.--Galassi (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Failure of DIREKTOR and PRODUCER to answer the question Why?[edit]

  1. As anyone in academia knows, at the outset there are two important questions that begin any inquiry or topic: What? (including Who? and When?) but then more importantly Why?
  2. So far all this article does is list the "Who" and "When" and "Where" but nothing more! This is a violation of WP:NOTDIRECTORY (viz. "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed") and WP:NOTSOAPBOX (viz. "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing") and WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE (viz. "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources").
  3. Together the question/s of What/Who/When/How AND answer/s plus the question of Why? fulfill the needs of the Empirical domain and research.
  4. It then goes further than that because the next issue is how to deal with the Normative domain meaning of "What ought to be?" and that is accomplished by understanding the values that people attached to things. It is too early to expect this to be dealt with at this time.
  5. So far, all that Users DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) and PRODUCER (talk · contribs) are doing is compiling a bare-bones mind-numbing List of Jews who have been Communists without ever explaining Why? that was so, or How? it happened.
  6. There are plenty of good sources and a wide variety of reasons (historical, political, social, economic, religious etc) for why and how Jews were drawn to Communism but the article presently does not supply them. Even if mentioned in other related articles. But DIREKTOR and PRODUCER limit, enforce would be a better word, the title to its narrowest limits without ever allowing it to become a rational and informative scholarly article e.g. [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41]. This is a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED and obviously of WP:OWN. When I have tried to insert that into the article e.g. [42] they immediately react and cut it out with feeble excuses and deprecating comments e.g. [43] [44] [45].
  7. Not just that, but any time a user tries to get into the question/s of why Jews were so drawn into Communism and not to Nazism or Fascism as many of their gentile compatriots and countrymen were, both DIREKTOR and PRODUCER will react by either censoring it out or excoriating the one making such efforts.
  8. It is time to move beyond the creation of a de facto list and start working on explaining and understanding why and how Jews were drawn to Communism and for DIREKTOR and PRODUCER not to stand in the way of that. In fact they would go a long way to clear the air if they lead the way with providing such important material to fill the ever-growing gap that straddles what is nothing more than a list that could be misconstrued as just looking around where to find 10% Jews here or 3 out of 10 there, but never talking about the other 90% or even who the 7 out of 10 were or why that was so. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 11:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I have at random clicked one of the diffs you gave above, [46]. I can only applaud the work of (in this case) User:DIREKTOR in keeping such extreme POV-introducing edits out of the article. The above post by IZAK shows the same inclination to use the article as a means to present a POV instead of giving the facts, and is littered by badly applied links to Wikipedia policies, like WP:NOTFACEBOOK. Now, there may be problems with the article or with User:Direktor, but the above statement and the edits by IZAK are at least evidence that trying to get him out of the picture at that article is a logical request. Fram (talk) 13:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Just saw your comments and with all the complexity involved here, I have clarified, see above: WP:NOTDIRECTORY (viz. "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed") and WP:NOTSOAPBOX (viz. "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing") and WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE (viz. "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources"). Please check all the diffs for accuracy and I will gladly respond. You also need to focus on the difficulty of moving on the question of Why" and how to formulate that. I have always provided as many sources I can gather with the building of each step. It's a process that takes time as any user knows. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 13:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    • You have changed your statement, but I don't see how it makes any difference. In the above diff I repeated from your list of diffs, it is your edit that clearly violates WP:NOTSOAPBOX, trying to use an article for propaganda, and thereby completely missing the topic of the article or the balance required under WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. And (after edit conflict) your edit did nothing to address the "why" at all. Fram (talk) 13:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Hi Fram, I was in the middle of posting my final version when you jumped in and it does make a difference. I honestly posted as many diffs as I could for the sake of comprehensiveness. Please point out the exact diff you are referring to and I will respond, I cannot respond to you until then because in some instances material was inserted taken directly from other WP articles and not from my head, in others I was not given a chance to build in the spirit of WP:DONOTDEMOLISH, Rome was not built in a day and as you know it is laborious to write and contribute. Again, please show which diffs show that it is "me" that has anything to do with "soapbox" when all I am talking about is putting things into context and giving reasons for the question of Why, of course with sources. This is a long tedious process and one cannot provide sources for every word as one types. If anything is not obvious and needs a source I will provide it, and I have done so many times. I have also given many examples of where I did not dispute removal of material that I inserted even if it did have source, and that would have helped answer the question Why something that is lacking from the article. Again, I ask that you look at all the diffs and not cherry pick anything out of context. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
        • You were in the middle when I jumped in? There was more than 1 hour and a half between your post and my reply... As for the diff I'm talking about, it was given in the first line of my first reply above, [[47]]. Fram (talk) 12:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
          • Hi Fram, I am not a quick typist, it does take me hours to type and I am not that young, and it takes time to notice all the comments when there are a few subsections and threads going on simultaneously, so I was not aware and did not notice your points. Okay, I now took a good look at the diff but it is a diff of DIREKTOR editing DIREKTOR and has nothing to do with the context of the material. In addition, whether one agrees with DIREKTOR or not there are plenty of refs in what he edited out, it was only DIREKTOR's POV that it was not good, now as you see DIREKTOR wants ANI to take care of the problems he creates (controversy and dissension, few are happy with what's going on) rather engaging in dialogue and article building. Most of the material cut out by DIREKTOR in the diff was not original or POV because it was taken and/or summarized from sections in the History of the Jews in the United States article, such as (1) History of the Jews in the United States#Revolutionary era, (2) History of the Jews in the United States#World War I and (3) History of the Jews in the United States#Postwar (see and compare it's all from there) and was not a violation of anything on the contrary it was obviously meant to create more historical context that in turn would show Jews in the USA in a NPOV position (it is not "soapboxing" to state that fact!!!) to prove that the vast majority of USA Jews had nothing to do with Communism at all. Quoting verbatim from another WP article is not "soapboxing" but rather it shows familairty with other related WP content and is good research and it's good faith and WP:NPOV desire to put the topic "Jews and Communism" in the kind of context answering the question Why? and How? this all came to be and not just creating what DIREKTOR and PRODUCER want which is just a raw List of Jews who were Communists without any attempt at getting into the reasons and factors behind such an important topic. If you have any questions about any other diffs please feel free to ask and I will try to put it into the context of the discussion and the subject as a whole. Thanks for your interest, IZAK (talk) 13:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
            • It was a diff you provided, of Direktir removing material you provided, so I don't see what your objections are against using it. But if you prefer, we can take the edit where you added all this and more, [48]; a 5K addition of the section "American Jews as non-Communists with no relation to Communism" in a general article on Jews and Communism. That is a WP:UNDUE violation, no matter where you got the material from (and you should have attributed it if you copied it from other articles). Material that is suitable for one article may well be soapboxing when used in another article, and e.g. a lengthy addition of what one American Jew did in 1781 is not a good addition to the Jews and Communism article, and seems only to be there to demonstrate that American Jews are good Americans, and the occasional bad apples like the Rosenbergs get sentenced to death by their fellow Jews. The section is about seven times as long as the one on Jewish American Communists, which is much closer to the subject of the article and doesn't discuss people like Rose Pastor Stokes, or Frank Oppenheimer, J. Robert Oppenheimer or other Jewish Americans who became a victim of McCarthyism. Your edit didn't bring balance to the article, but slanted it excessively in one POV direction (your edit strongly gives the impression that one can't be a communist and a good American at the same time, and that it is essential for an article about Jews and Communism to clearly show that Jews have done more than their share of good citizenship in America throughout its history, no matter if it had anything to do with Communism or not, like fighting in WWI). Fram (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Fram, I do appreciate your observations. Please consider that contributing to articles is a complex process and takes time. We can spend hours debating these points but one cannot place them on a knife's edge, writing and editing is a far more complex evolutionary process. In the course of spending many long hours on finding related texts and starting the process of adding balance not every attempt will succeed. No one sits down and writes up "the perfect article or section" in one shot because as you know it is a process. The section you refer to was removed and I did not dispute it, that is part of the give and take, so its a moot point really. At no point am I trying to say anything about "American Jews and Communism" and I was not drawing your conclusions, what I was trying to do was start the process of creating balance, reaching for the question of Why? and How? not just focus on inserting names of Jews who were Communists, something neither DIREKTOR nor PRODUCER have even done, other editors have done that and they deserve to be complimented. As I have mentioned I have inserted a number of other sections and they have been retained, albeit in summary form in an effort to improve the over-all balance of the article. Bottom line, I have added sections and even names of Jews who were Communists (such as the Rosenbergs in the USA [49] [50]) to the article. I was the one who added sections that are still integral parts of the article, namely, Jews and Communism#Downfall of Soviet Union [51](later abbreviated); Jews and Communism#Persecution and emigration [52](later abbreviated [53]) [54]; Jews and Communism#Karl Marx [55]. Thanks again, IZAK (talk) 12:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

So, a diff you gave as an example of their problematic editing, "This is a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED and obviously of WP:OWN.", now turns out to be "The section you refer to was removed and I did not dispute it, that is part of the give and take, so its a moot point really.", and on the other hand you indicate that a fair number of sections you added have remained in the article, also indicating that the problems are not so extreme as your post here strongly suggested. So, basically, some things you add remain, some get shortened, and some, like the one I highlighted, get correctly removed. Isn't that all part of normal editing on a contentious topic? No editor is obliged to add sections on "why", and the section you added on Jewish Americans had nothing to do with "why" anyway. If you can create a well-sourced, neutral, and not excessively long section on "why?", then it could be a good addition to the article: but no one else is obliged to write such a section to satisfy your demands, and at least one of the examples you gave above have nothing to do with people stopping you from adding such a section, and everything with keeping POV and UNDUE sections out of the article.
Randomly checking other diffs you gave, I note that you complain about edits that got reverted like this one and this one; but looking at the articles you linked there, I see nothing related to Jews and Communism, the topic of the artcle, so it is normal that these ones were reverted. It would greatly help your case if you would stick to the real problems, because as it stands a casual glance of your complaints indicates more problems from your side than from the ones you are complaining about. Either this actually reflects the situation, or you have very badly presented your case. Fram (talk) 13:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Third lede image removed[edit]

IZAK has removed a third image from the article's lede. So lets recap:

  • He removed the poster of Leon Trotsky, on grounds that it was anti-Jewish propaganda (it is in fact published and signed by Leon Trotsky himself). Then he removed it on grounds that it was a "double image" of Trotsky. Now its claimed that its not Trotsky at all.
  • He pushed down the photo of Karl Marx because Karl Marx was baptized as a child (and, in spite of sources, IZAK decided that makes him not a Jewish person: "Marx was a Christian and that is what defines him").
  • When yesterday I moved up the photo of Trotsky to the lede as a sort of compromise, he demanded that it be the same size as before [56]. When I pointed to the MoS, he removed it from the lede [57]: "Trotsky is neither the founder nor single most important person in Communism" - yes, that's after he removed the photo of Karl Marx.

The user, as I said, seems to be deliberately out to hurt the quality of the article.

As regards Karl Marx, in his long essays you will find IZAK basically rejects sources out of hand as a basis for Wikipedia editing. This was essentially my position:

IZAK - its very simple: the sources say Karl Marx was a Jewish person. You say he wasn't. Provide sources that say that. Exactly that. Not sources that say he was baptized or whatever, wherefrom you draw your own conclusions - but sources that directly say that which you claim. I can not accept your own opinions, nor any of your own "conclusions".

IZAK responds with things like this (buried in massive tirades)

Wikipedia cannot accept half-baked half-truths and partial theories, even if accompanied by so-called "sources".

And of course, provides nothing at all in support, other than his own OR. The whole thing is here. When "so-called sources" provide a problem for IZAK, he assumes the position that his own evaluation of a prominent historical personage stands above ("Marx was baptized hence he isn't a Jewish person"). That's just the Marx affair of course..

This article can not move forward while these folks hang around, being nothing but disruptive obstructions, to even the most basic and obvious improvements. -- Director (talk) 15:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The reason people are finding it difficult to agree about what image represents the subject matter is because the relationship between Jews and Communism has not been established in the article. USchick (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a big difference between communists who happen to be Jews, and Communists where their Jewishness is somehow intrinsically linked to their communism. Marx may meet the technical definition of a Jew, but the sources are not saying that his Jewishness is an intrinsic part of his philosophy - to the contrary, they repeatedly say he lived his life as a Christian, and that his parents converted before he was born. Had he been born a woman, (s)he and all their female descendants for 100 generations would technically be Jews too. There are sources discussing the intersection between communism and Jews - that does not mean all jewish communists are in scope, anymore than an article on the crusades brings all soldiers who are christians in. Images for the article needs to be ones that are specifically and explicitly being discussed in the scope of Jewish Communists. Surely there are propaganda (pro or con) images that are using both communist and jewish imagery. for example etc. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

A user has found what I believe is a suitable image and added it to the article. Another user mistakenly believed that the article "Jews and Communism" had been plagiarised from a banned site, as you can see in the section "Plagiarism" on this page, but it was the other way around. The fact that the banned site was so eager to copy this WP article is not a good sign in my opinion. I do believe the article "Jews and Communism" in its current state is pushing an anti-Semitic agenda.Smeat75 (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, at a meta-level, there is almost assuredly a notable historical argument (Jewish Bolshevism). That argument was anti-semetic. But our covering of that argument is not itself anti-semetic, but we should be covering the topic at a meta level, and not just repeating the historical argument itself. I am not convinced that this isn't just a WP:CFORK of Jewish Bolshevism, unless there are other sources discussing the intersection of communism and Jews from a scholarly angle (which there is some evidence of [58]). Gaijin42 (talk) 20:10, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Your link shows that a scholar has written an article about "Jews and Communism in Eastern Europe." That does not establish that the topic Jews and Communism in Eastern Europe is notable. Notability only occurs when more than one person writes about a subject in reliable sources. And the scholar's article is too narrow in scope to support an article about Jews and Communism globally. If a scholar were to write a book or article about Jews and Communism, he or she would have to mention examples where Jews played little or no role in Communism, compare their membership in liberal and social democratic parties, and explain the reasons for these phenomena. Otherwise we just have a coatrack where we pile on examples of Jews who were Communists. That gives the article an implicit thesis, that Jews and Communism are connected, not supported by external sources but by our researches. The connection may be obvious, but that does not absolve us of having a source that draws the connection. TFD (talk) 23:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
So, I guess TFD is just going to keep repeating the rejected argument over and over and over again.
I think everyone here would have to be pretty dumb to actually buy the concept that the topic of "Jews and Communism" is somehow different from the topic "Jews and Communism in [region/country]". It is only to be expected that the vast majority of historical studies focus on the relationship in specific geopolitical and historical circumstances. You are latching beyond all reason onto one statement from a source where the author expresses his wish that a global study be conducted (scientific publications often list subjects as suggestions for further study). The source does not indicate that the topic is not covered, merely that it would be good to conduct an overarching, global study. Such research, if ever conducted, would in either case be of dubious value (compared to the detailed research) due to the very different conditions in which the relationship has developed.
The idea that large amounts of reliably-sourced content, dealing with a topic, should be deleted from our project because we don't have a "global" study on the topic - is, in my view, preposterous to the point of absurdity. Even if that's actually the case, though it seems we actually do have research dealing with the topic with a view on whole regions, in addition to specific countries. But I guess TFD is perfectly willing to ignore all these sources and actually claim the topic is not notable. Weird, and disturbing. -- Director (talk) 00:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
A google search for "Blonde and Jews" gets over 30,000 hits under "books" like this one [59]. Just because people write about something, doesn't make it notable. A relationship between Jews and Communism still needs to be established in the article. USchick (talk) 01:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Director, the behavior of a race in one country may not relate to its behavior in another. For example studies about the relationship of blacks in the U.S. to economic and political power may not be relevant to nations in Africa, unless one assumes that black people have racial characteristics that determine their economic or political achievement. And of course we are discussing Jews as a race, because we are including "Jews" who were Christians. If we want to create an article about "Blacks and poverty" for example, we would need a source that addresses that not just blacks and poverty in America. TFD (talk) 02:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Lol, the relationship between Jews and Blondes would be easier to establish than Jews as a Race. USchick (talk) 02:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This discussion seems to be losing any focus on what the participants are asking admins to do. I don't think there is any reason for an admin to block or ban any editor from what has been posted here. "Jews and Communism" is a terrible, terrible article, blatant anti-Semitism imo, unfortunately I did not know about it when it was proposed for deletion, not that it would have made any difference I suppose, but admins are not going to do anything about that. As the AfD failed, there is nothing to do but try to improve the article, hopefully this thread will have brought the article to the attention of others as it did me, and the discussion should continue on the talk page.Smeat75 (talk) 03:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
@TFD. There are no such things as "races", TFD. Certainly Jewish people are not a "race". -- Director (talk) 08:39, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
And apparently it is not a religion either, otherwise an atheist who was baptized could not be a Jews. So what in your terminology is it? TFD (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
How about a nation? Or ethnic group? Talk about your false dichotomy.. Frankly I'm more than a little appalled that you view Jews as a separate "race". -- Director (talk) 18:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── DIREKTOR, when you stated above that "He, USchick, IZAK, Galassi, these are all users vehemently opposed to the article, and, apparently, to any attempts at improving it": firstly, by now it is obvious what you mean by "improving" the article, for you it is just about adding more people to the List of Jews who were Communists and nothing else because you never give any reasons why that happened, just spending time looking for the 10% here and there who were Jews that got mixed up with Communism. Secondly, you are surely being facetious at best as regards myself and it is a false accusation against me that you should apologize for. You know full well that I have never asked that the article be deleted, ever, my constant request is that the topic be put into greater context and not just read like an accusatory list almost like a "Gestapo/KGB/Stasi list of most wanted/hated/feared Jewish Communists". Thirdly, as you also so know I have added sections and even names of Jews who were Communists (such as the Rosenbergs in the USA [60] [61]) to the article. Fourthly, I was the one who added sections that are still integral parts of the article, namely, Jews and Communism#Downfall of Soviet Union [62](later abbreviated); Jews and Communism#Persecution and emigration [63](later abbreviated [64]) [65]; Jews and Communism#Karl Marx [66]. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

  • NOTE: 1 At the present time the question of a suitable pic for the lede is moot because User Pharos (talk · contribs) has recently introduced an excellent compromise File:OZET poster.jpg [67] we can all agree on with his logical reasoning that "better to have image in lede representing a movement/group, rather than an individual". 2 DIREKTOR conflates and mixes up all sorts of things creating half-truths. For example, in his first point above about about my removal of the controversial Trotsky poster (I was not the only one who has given reasons for its removal in such a controversial article) File:Russian Civil War poster.jpg, my own position was an remains that one good picture of Trotsky File:Leon Trotsky (crop).jpg is okay and it's in the article and I have never disagreed with that. I have never gotten into the discussion of who is depicted in the controversial poster, just that it sure looks like a mean caricature meant to stir "love-hate" emotions, and that should be left out of a NPOV lede no matter who is depicted in the poster or who made it. 3 The good pic of Trotsky File:Leon Trotsky (crop).jpg that was in the article was not suitable for the lead should and is a part of the section on Russia as I noted "...put him back where he belongs with Russia. This article is about the worldwide involvement with Communism by Jews." [68]. But DIREKTOR never lets facts get in the way of trying to get his WP:OWN way even if it means confusing different users edits and positions to suit himself, as Yoda might say "good he is, at that". 4 A lone imageof Marx was inserted which is all that DIREKTOR/PROCCER wanted, and the objection was that it should be kept out of a major discussion of "Jews" in relation to Communism, eventually DIREKTOR put in a one liner in the article so that got the image of Marx into the article as well. As for Marx, he was baptized as a Christian at age 6 and he confirmed it at age 16 and I have provided sources that are even in the article, that is not made up, and according to Judaism, DIREKTOR does not seem to be an expert in Judaism at all to know that someone who converts to Christianity is no longer Jewish or regarded as Jew in the Jewish religion which is the source of the ethnic definition of a Jew as well. DIREKTOR only cherry picks what is good for him and PRODUCER, Judaism and Jews be damned. This discussion is way beyond what DIREKTOR can fathom, so he keeps harping on the fact that Marx was born Jewish, which is true but he ignores the equally true fact that Marx was an official Christian whose family renounced Judaism which puts their Jewish status in doubt. There are sources for this but it does not belong in a discussion about Communism so I have limited the talk about that even though I have tried some minimal discussions on the point that just misses the mark with DIREKTOR that I cannot help but that he uses as some sort of pathetic "complaint". 5 Finally, the utterly absurd and false claim about me that "The user...seems to be deliberately out to hurt the quality of the article" is hilarious because by now everyone knows DIREKTOR's and now on the scene again PRODUCER's aim is NOT to create a "quality article" on the contrary their idea of "quality" here is to produce as massive a List of Jews who were Communists and damned be the question of WHY that happened or any true and relevant historical, political social, economic etc factors that cause this as any normal study of historical events and personalities deserves, and as all my attempts at improving the article clearly show if you look at everything I have done to make this article move beyond being an ongoing hot potato point of dissension and divisiveness on WP. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 12:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
as massive a List of Jews who were Communists - and using a very wide definition, without explanation or nuance, of who can be simply labelled "a Jew". For instance, the article has a quote "Hungary was ruled by a Communist dictatorship. Its party boss, Béla Kun, was a Jew." An editor attempted to clarify this to a certain extent by inserting "(Bela Kun was actually half-Jewish and raised a protestant)." [69] According to Béla Kun, his father was Jewish, his mother was a "former Protestant", they were secular, non religiously observant, Kun was educated at a Calvinist school. Presumably as an adult he was an atheist. However any clarification of this kind is not permitted in the article and it was reverted [70] so that the article once again says flatly "the party boss was a Jew". There are many instances of this kind in the article of people born into nominally Jewish families, quite a few who converted to some form of Christianity, then as adults and communists were completely secularised atheists, who are simply given the label "Jew" and any qualification of that removed.Smeat75 (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Passover and Jewish editors and this discussion[edit]

NOTE to closing admins, with the close approach of the Jewish Passover holidays, Passover eve is on Monday April 14th, continuing through April 22nd, it will greatly limit the ability of Jewish and Judaic editors to respond adequately to this discussion. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, IZAK (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

This discussion should be over by now, what makes you think it will extend until then? ES&L 14:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
What does a fast from eating leavened bread have to do with Internet access?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Um.. I'm not very religious myself, but isn't Easter at about the same time? I imagine most Wikipedia editors would be celebrating a holiday these days. -- Director (talk) 18:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This comment was meant for closing admins. Unless you are a closing admin, if you have any questions about how people celebrate their faith, please google it. USchick (talk) 18:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I think you ought to stop posting these offensive/strange posts everywhere. -- Director (talk) 19:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Are you a closing admin? This comment is not for you. Belittling statements about why or how people celebrate holidays is highly inappropriate. USchick (talk) 19:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Belittling ? Highly inappropriate ? Lighten up. Religious practices don't get a special pass. People can ask whatever they want. They might learn something. Ryulong asked a question, Collect kindly answered it. The end. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Many Jews become a tad more "orthodox" during Passover, and many will, in fact, not be on-line during that period. Even typing on the Internet can be viewed as "work" not to be engaged in. Walking is "in" as is using the stairs, for many. The Internet is not on the "in" list. Collect (talk) 19:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

YMMV, as some like to say. In other words, SPADFY. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
"SPADFY" has no meaning that I can find. My post was expository, and not directed at you by any means at all. I have had Orthodox friends and relatives, so am pretty sure that what I posted is correct. Collect (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose Passover brisket. The entire sedar is unappetizing, but that abomination is a crime against nature.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
True enough -- though I suppose this means you put an orange on your seder plate… Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:15, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Requested admin action[edit]

I am sort of surprised there have been no admin comments on this long thread, they seem to be happy for long content discussions to go on here, although as I understand it, maybe imperfectly since I am not an admin, this is supposed to be a board where incidents that need administrator attention can be reported. Here are the actual requests for action that I can see on this thread, people can comment, support or oppose underneath the proposals, I probably won't set this up right, maybe someone else can correct any mistakes.

USchick to be topic banned from discussion of communism[edit]

as suggested by Director at 20:23, 7 April 2014
  • Oppose.Smeat75 (talk) 20:11, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose because User USchick (talk · contribs) is a reliable and feisty and knowledgeable hard-working editor who writes well and will not be bullied into submission by anyone. IZAK (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I see nothing in the differences provided to support a ban. TFD (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Director to be topic banned from discussion of Jews and communism[edit]

as suggested by Galassi at 21:52, 7 April 2014
  • Oppose,see below Smeat75 (talk) 20:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose because User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) is a good editor, however he has to accept that he cannot impose his WP:OWN view on a situation and that other editors will oppose him. He must learn to live with WP:CONSENSUS and at all costs avoid WP:LAWYERING by using WP policies to stifle other editors from contributing. 12:58, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Director to be topic banned from discussion of communism[edit]

as suggested by Uschick at 14:55, 8 April 2014
  • 'Oppose - I don't know enough about his editing history with regard to communism to want to ban him from that.Smeat75 (talk) 20:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose because everyone is entitled to their private and personal POV provided they stick to WP:NPOV on WP when creating and editing articles. IZAK (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Director to be topic banned from discussion of Jews or Judaism[edit]

which I am suggesting right now Smeat75 (talk) 20:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • 'Support as nominator. The fact that he wanted to use a grotesquely inappropriate image of a monstrous figure, identified by him as "a Jew", trampling on a map of Europe and crushing pitiful people beneath his boot as the lead image for an article called "Jews and Communists", makes him a highly unsuitable person to be editing in this area in my opinion.Smeat75 (talk) 20:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Smeat75 to be sanctioned for personal attack and slander.
Amazingly - everything you wrote is wrong, and disgusting in its implication. The image is an (early) Soviet propaganda poster, depicting a Soviet soldier (probably Leon Trotsky himself). Unless the Soviet Union depicts its soldiers as "grotesque" and/or "monstrous" in its own war propaganda, then maybe if the poster is a bit crude - its because its from the middle of the misery and chaos of the Russian Civil War?! And the figure is NOT "trampling" a map of Europe, he's supposed to be defending Russia from the foreign intervention and Poland ("BE ON GUARD!" is what the poster says). The figure is actually not outside Russia at all: I honestly think you have no idea about the proportions of the country in the period.
If anything, the demonstrated lack of knowledge and understanding of the relevant history indicates you ought perhaps not involve yourself in the topic. Not to mention that this was all explained about a dozen times, and included in the caption as well - which may in fact say a thing or two about the effort you devote to reading other users' comments. Either that, or this is an attempt to get another user sanctioned through deliberately posting offensive falsehoods.
All that said, I don't doubt there'll be "support" for your proposal, among everyone else over there who'd rather be without someone who disagrees with them. -- Director (talk) 20:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


Wow. Are you sure you posted enough subsections to topic-ban me from the article you're now involved in, opposing my position? How about an attempt at discussion at least, before you try to eliminate your opposition over here? -- Director (talk) 20:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think a discussion is necessary. Considering that collectively, we have wasted enough electricity to power a small country, I think a ban on Director for all proposed topics seems reasonable. USchick (talk) 20:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I suggest you spend some of that electricity to improve the article. -- Director (talk) 20:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I did, but you reverted it, because you asked to wait for someone who can count in decimal points. USchick (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Opposed to suggestion that "Director to be topic banned from discussion of Jews or Judaism" but he, i.e. User DIREKTOR (talk · contribs), should be encouraged to develop a kinder and gentler understanding attitude that shows he is sensitive that other users may be offended when he gets into the sensitive area of writing about Jews or controversial ideologies such as Communism, as has quite obviously happened in this case, and he should please avoid "anything" that is bound to stir controversy and lead to either de facto or de jure WP:BATTLEGROUND and create dissension that does not enhance either the editing environment on WP or the reputation of WP. IZAK (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support unless Director agrees to leave the red coat man poster. The fact that director spends so much energy and is so eager to put that single specific poster as lede image, even after failing to provide evidence that it's Trotsky or any jew at all, is in my opinion a sign of personal POV which may be as Smeat described, or even if his intention is not anti-semitic, which we can't be sure. I also find very relevant that the article seems not to have established any causality between Jews and Communism, being at the moment merely a List of Communist Jews. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually including the "red coat main poster" as the lede is no longer an issue, and hasn't been for some time (did you check the dates?).

That said, if the file is widely opposed, I'll naturally concede. Its an entirely arbitrary issue. But I would like to see alternatives presented. An article needs a lead image.

It was brought up as an example of user conduct, not to discuss a content dispute on ANI. We do now have a decent lede image. -- Director (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Director appears to be unable to edit objectively about Jews. TFD (talk) 17:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    • TFD I think you are one of the least qualified people to lecture other users on objectivity. You have blindly tried every possible attempt to get rid of this article and its information, be it by merging it, deleting it, splitting it, or, most recently, accusing it of being plagiarism. The last one could have easily been avoided if you bothered to spend a maximum of 30 seconds checking what the dates were and who "plagiarized" who. I think that speaks volumes of your "objectivity". Your eagerness to jump at any possible attempt to minimize or suppress it and other editors is incredibly transparent. --PRODUCER (TALK) 15:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
@TFD. One could just as easily say the same thing about you, with your unapologetic 180 degree flips on issues whenever it suits your immediate needs. -- Director (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose : Per IZAK, and this article had so many red links. Made me discover about less known people. OccultZone (Talk) 18:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - this AN/I thread was opened five days ago by Director with a complaint of "Disruption and malicious editing" directed against a whole group of editors and the thread quickly switched focus to be about his editing, not others'. Now, while this thread is still open, he has started a second thread on this very page with a complaint about another editor entitled "Racist personal attack" and the focus appears to be switching in a similar fashion. It seems to me that Director has a problem collaborating with others and lacks sensitivity in dealing with the highly-charged ethnic/religious issues he chooses to edit in. I never heard of him before this thread which he started drew my attention to the disgraceful article "Jews and Communism".Smeat75 (talk) 13:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved [contributor]) Smeat75, do you fail to see the irony of your wanting Director banned from editing any articles related to Jews and Judaism while stating, "... this thread which he started drew my attention to the disgraceful article "Jews and Communism"..." in the same breath? Your objectivity seems to have been tainted by your personal WP:POV ambition of WP:CENSORing articles because you believe them to be offensive (WP:IDONTLIKEIT). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

*Clarification please? When did this ANI turn into an RfC? Should uninvolved non-admin editors be commenting here? The request was for Admin participation, not for an RfC. USchick (talk) 01:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Clarification being provided for you, USchick: Not only have I been following the article in dispute for some time, I have also been following this ANI since its inception (something which you are well aware of per[71]). Considering that Smeat75 only became involved with the article concurrently with the ANI, and his/her only contribution to the article itself has appeared to have been a tendentious one[72] IMO, I'm wondering why you made no objection to his/her involvement here. Perhaps your objection lies with who is responding to the comment left by Smeaty75, rather the substance of the observation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
The answer to your question above "do you fail to see the irony" etc is yes, I do fail to see it. If you want to discuss my "tendentious" edit to the article, I think it would be better to do that on the article talk page than here.Smeat75 (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Smeat's ability to criticize others for a lack of objectivity while at the same time removing sourced information on the basis he finds it "disturbing" and that he considers facts from reliable historians anti-semitic is astounding. As is his quickness to dismiss in an unrelated incident bigoted racial personal attacks against Direktor because he is in a dispute with him. [73] --PRODUCER (TALK) 15:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
What you are referring to was not "sourced", it was a misquote which took a very debatable statement and twisted it (do you think there might be, oh, a teensy little difference between "violins" and "perpetrators") into blatant anti-semitism and yes I do find that "disturbing".Smeat75 (talk) 22:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
For the record, uninvolved editors are allowed to comment on ANI discussions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


Is this partly about the Dmitry Moor poster ? Are you looking for an academic source that discusses the poster and its use of Trotsky ? If so try "Iconography of Power: Soviet Political Posters Under Lenin and Stalin", p. 152, University of California Press, ISBN 978-0520221536 Sean.hoyland - talk 18:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Well I'll be. My thanks, Sean.hoyland. Try as I might I couldn't find anything on GB. Lets quote from that publication:

In 1920, [Dmitry] Moor designed a striking poster, "Bud' na strazhe!" (Be on Guard!) that featured a drawing of Trotsky holding a bayonet and standing, larger than life, on Russian territory, with minuscule enemies around him.

So I guess its not, in fact, the Loch Ness Monster "trampling Europe", as some have suggested? Its frankly unbelievable that, with the photos provided, with Trotsky's own signature, alongside the labels and descriptions all over the internet - we require an actual Google Books link before the sky is recognized as being WP:BLUE. -- Director (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, that poster is clearly not Trotsky. There are no spectacles and no beard, present in every photograph or representation of him since at least 1915. Instead, it is clearly another version of the much more famous figure in Did You Volunteer? created by the same artist in the exact same year.--Pharos (talk) 00:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh for goodness sake... In every photograph? No. Please click on the link. Lev Trotsky did not wear a goatee and glasses at that time. And what are we doing now? contradicting published sources in addition to everyone else on the net? The ref is by Victoria E. Bonnel, professor of sociology at Berkeley specializing in "Soviet/Russian and East European Society". I don't care if its actually included, but the person in the image is Trotsky. I honestly don't know what additional sources anyone could possibly provide. Its not ours to speculate, but its entirely possible the figure on the Did you volunteer poster was actually based on Trotsky in some way. Even if its not, that doesn't mean this poster somehow can't be Trotsky: note that the poster carries his message, and is signed by him. -- Director (talk) 00:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The figures in the two posters are clearly the same, the fact that the vastly-more-obscure version has been misinterpreted by one author should have no bearing. If the identification with Trotsky was real, it should by any reasonable standard be documented for the much more famous version. FWIW, you have given a rather low-res image of that photo, the Wikimedia Commons version looks very much like a short beard to me. There is no way there is enough evidence that the clearly drawn clean-shaven soldier in these two posters is Trotsky.--Pharos (talk) 03:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
"vastly-more-obscure version"...not sure about that. It's one of the more famous posters by one of the most famous propaganda artists of the period. It's true that it's debatable whether the soldier is Trotsky but the text is certainly Trotsky's as Director says. The important point though I think is that it would far better for people to spend their time improving the neglected articles about these immensely talented artists than trying to get each other blocked especially if the motivation is a misinformed interpretation of the poster's imagery and what the poster's use tells you about an editor's intent. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:48, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I am not making any comment on the general ANI rigmarole, just wanted to put my two cents in on this particular image, which I've spent in inordinate amount of time researching lately, along with a few others of its kind :) Perhaps we should move it to another room.--Pharos (talk) 08:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
This is still going on?? Pharos, not to imply any disrespect, but your own impressions are not something that needs to be discussed. Either you've got someone who says it somehow isn't Trotsky, or you don't. -- Director (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Much more serious than the argument about that image,which is not being considered for inclusion any more anyway, is that Director and Producer have found a quote which says "the first violins in the orchestra of death of the tsar and his family were four Jews", referring to the people who actually fired the pistols, which they change to "the main perpetrators of the death of the tsar and his family were four Jews" and pay absolutely no attention to the four sources I have provided so far which confirm the now accepted historical fact that the killings were ordered by Lenin.It is not only me who opposes that lie "Jews killed the Tsar", which you only find on extremist webssites, but when it is removed, one or the other of them put it right back in again. I appeal to some admin or authority or someone reading this to take some action, please do something. Does WP really want to turn into an anti-Semitic website?Smeat75 (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
It is impossible to engage in a discussion, let alone reason, with someone who consistently projects onto other users as claiming nonsense like the "first the Jews killed Christ then they killed Christ's representative on earth, the Tsar" [74] and states that users like Altenmann (talk · contribs) and I push a "straightforward anti-Semitic slur". He criticizes others for their wording yet his only alternative to throw sourced statements straight out the window based on him feeling "disturbed". You clearly lack the ability to refrain from such absurd behavior and thus continue to ignore inconvenient reliable sources and try to associate other users with malicious statements or views. You have a personal beef with Vaskberg based on some emotional past reading elsewhere and consider his work a "lie". All I can say is tough luck: your personal feelings are utterly irrelevant and constantly crying wolf does not help your case. --PRODUCER (TALK) 13:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, you'd better have me thrown off WP then, hadn't you.Smeat75 (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Just be civil and stop inferring at every chance possible that anyone who disagrees with you is an anti-semite. Not asking for much. --PRODUCER (TALK) 14:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for putting that Veksburg quote back to the original. I did not say his quote was a lie, it was a lie the way it was misquoted. Original says the four people who pulled the triggers were "the first violins of the orchestra" and Sverdlov, a top Bolshevik was "the conductor" which does not necessarily conflict with the fact that Lenin ordered the killings, after all, an orchestra and a conductor did not write the music, who was the composer?Smeat75 (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I just want to point out that Director inverts the burden of proof by demanding other editors to prove the man on the poster is not Trotsky when he himself has no evidence that he is. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
That's only true if we assume there was not enough evidence already to dispel reasonable doubt, as I believe there was. Descriptions of the image on several host websites have been provided, photos of Trotsky appearing as in the poster, and Trotsky's own message and signature below the illustration. For goodness sake - its the spitting image of Trotsky from the contemporary photographs.
If you're referring to my latest request up there addressing Pharos, then there is no question at all with regard to reasonable doubt, since by that point a scholarly source explicitly stating its Trotsky has been added to the pile. Demanding proof negative is perfectly justified in the presence of proof positive. -- Director (talk) 23:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Incorrect, per Director's comment above, GreyWinterOwl. Please check again carefully through this RfC to get Director topic banned from virtually every area of Wikipedia... er, I meant ANI turned upside-down by those being brought before it (and disregard sections asking for personal time out 'cos we ain't done with the character assassination yet') and you'll find that he has provided an RS. In fact, Sean.hoyland has even provided an easy link to the ref in question. I've seen some bizarre, protracted ANI twists and turns, but this one seems to be intent on taking the kangaroo court prize.
Incidentally, Smeat75, I have no intention of being lured to the talk page as it will compromise my neutrality. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible that Iryna Harpy is suffering from the same difficulty with reading comprehension as Director? USchick (talk) 23:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Are there any circumstances in which comments like the above are not considered vitriolic WP:NPA violations? Are all the adults mysteriously absent from this entire thread? This discussion has stretched out into levels of unbridled absurdity. Tarc (talk) 23:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, when people take facts and misconstrue them. I agree about adult supervision. USchick (talk) 00:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I am relatively new to Wikipedia. But if someone can help, I'd like to file a complain about USchick. The few times I have crossed paths with her is just general unpleasantness. It's not just comments like this above[75][76], but just the whole ove-the-top waving policy in people's face[77], general argumentativeness and unwillingness to even listen to others' discussion [78], constant POV pushing and marginalizing anything Russia related [79][80]. Frankly, it's toxic to the community. She does sometimes have good points...but the way she delivers them and the inability to even accept others' opinions even once, not a fan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JNC2 (talkcontribs) 03:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

USchick and WP:CHEESE[edit]

This thread is already huge, but I really feel I have to quote this latest exchange in entirety. Its from this thread

Politics in Israel is even more complex than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Anyway, there can be several communist parties in the same country, particularly in Israel.
In Belgium, we have 3 communist parties for next pools (2 French speaking - 1 Flemish).
Pluto2012 (talk) 20:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I hope Director reads this comment, since he continues to push his POV that all communism is the same everywhere. USchick (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I find it amazing you still have no idea what I was saying. I would have thought that "all Communism is not the same, but all Communism is Communism" was about as clear as human language can strive to be. Either that or "Marxism, Leninism, Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Guevarism, Castroism, Titoism, etc - are variants of Communism" [81]. Incredibly though, you persist in disrupting this talkpage with WP:ICANTHEARYOU.
I still think someone who believes Marxism is different from Communism, or that "Soviet" is an ideology - can not contribute here. It implies difficulty in understanding the concept of a wider term (which is pretty basic stuff). -- Director (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source for your opinion. or is it OR? USchick (talk) 23:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes: she's requesting sources that Marxism is a form of Communism; just to make sure that's not my "OR".

This comes after weeks of discussion and numerous "debates" in threads like this one, where she virtually blanked the entire article removing Marxists and Stalinists on grounds that these are not Communists. I am NOT kidding. That was five weeks ago or more. In the meantime she's argued that Karl Marx is a Marxist, and therefore not a Communist (as shown above), and argued that the word "Soviet" denotes an ideology. She still insists that Marxism is not Communism, and for all I can tell, probably still maintains Karl Marx was not a Communist. Karl. Marx. The author of The Communist Manifesto. And this is all just an example. These sort of things carry over from the old article as well.

But there's more here: "DIREKTOR pushes his POV that all communism is the same everywhere" - she never even bothered to figure out what's being said. When folks were saying "Marxism is a form of Communism", she read that as "Communism is the same everywhere". The logic of that ("if Marxism is Communism, then Communism is all the same") is so appalling, one has to conclude, without trying to offend(!), that USchick is likely a very young person, not equipped at all to discuss the subject. That her involvement over there is generally detrimental to the development of a serious dialogue and discussion.
(This is in addition to the fact that she seems to equate political parties with ideologies, thinking that three different Communist parties must have different ideologies.)

Marxism is, of course, the central form of Communism, and is practically synonymous with it. This is WP:DE, and I think something needs to be done. Conversing with USchick is about as close to a literal replay of WP:CHEESE as anything I've seen or could imagine. -- Director (talk) 02:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yah.. and up there she just said I "have trouble with reading comprehension". "With reading comprehension". I mean this sort of thing is just infuriating. You'd need the reserve of a canonized saint, or a brick wall, just to get past the appalling nonsense, let alone discuss an extremely difficult topic. -- Director (talk) 03:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Administrator needed on Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo[edit]

There's a bit of a complicated situation happening over at Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo. I'd like to ask for some admin attention because I'm not sure how to resolve these issues with respect to some WP:BLP concerns raised by RussellBarkley, who has identified himself as a expert and researcher on this topic. In brief:

  • The New York Times published an article which questions the validity of the topic and also makes claims on the financial interests and relationship that Dr. Barkley has in relation to this phenomenon.
  • Recently, much of this content has been incorporated in a new "Controversy" section (which probably needs to be shortened or incorporated elsewhere on the article given this is the only article so far that evaluates this controversy).
  • The editor contests many of the claims made in the article, and has elaborated on why those claims are inaccurate here, here, and on his talk page. It's possible some of these claims, if false, may rise to the level of defamation, though there are no reliable sources that contradict these claims as of yet.
  • The editor has also made substantial contributions to the article, and IMO, contains a mix of constructive and problematic content. This issue has already been raised here at WP:COIN. I have asked the editor to restrict their edits to the talk page.

Anyway, if an admin could look over these issues and lend a hand, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, I, JethroBT drop me a line 02:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

RussellBarkley also seem to be making legal threats "If such statements are not revised, I would not be surprised if Wikipedia will be hearing from the Legal Department of Eli Lilly".  Tigerboy1966  07:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Russell Barkley has now retracted the legal threats. Most of the "Controversy" of the article was unsourced, and the part of it which claimed to be sourced misrepresented the source in some significant respects, and made at least one statement which was clearly untrue. I have therefore removed the section, and posted to the talk page of the editor who created it, explaining the need for reliable sources for potentially controversial statements about a living person. It may well be, however, that part of the content of the section was valid. If so, then anyone willing to take the time and trouble can sort the wheat from the chaff and restore that part of the content with suitable reliable sources to support it. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


Greetings. I created an entirely new article on this subject. I understand there is some sort of dispute over a previous article that was deleted (and subsequently recreated) repeatedly. I looked into the subject and found that it is in fact notable. It seems to be written about with hyphens, so that's why I used them. Another editor has redirected. I have reverted. I also need help redirecting the Voice to skull page to this article since that page has been protected. I know people can get testy, but this is indeed a new article created in good faith so it should be treated and assessed as such. I don't see any issues as far as notability as it is well cited. Thanks for any and all insights and assistance. I am going to be offline for a while, but will check back in when I get a chance. Thanks. Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Utter bullshit. Only one of the sources cited even uses the term 'voice to skull'. This is a clear and unambiguous attempt to recreate an article on a subject deleted as non-notable fringe nonsense in a recent AfD. The topic (in as much as it merits discussion at all) is already covered in other articles, and has no independent notability - it simply doesn't exist except as a term bandied around on conspiracy-theory websites. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
You are most welcome to take it to an Articles for Deletion discussion. You say it is covered elsewhere, but where? Electronic harassment seems to me to be an entirely different subject. So where exactly do you think this subject is already covered? Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I have moved the article to Acoustic harassment. I hope this satisfies Andy's concerns. I still need help with the redirect requested above. Thanks. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

We don't base articles on a single source. [82] Everything else you included in the article - by clear and unambiguous synthesis, since none of the other sources used the term 'voice-to-skull' - can be covered, if properly sourced, in existing articles actually discussing real technology. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, that article has just recently been deleted TWICE, at AFD and MFD. I'm debating if I need to just CSD it under G4 and salt it, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Dennis Brown |  | WER 18:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"Voice-to-skull" is a POV re-hash of material already covered at Electronic harassment and Psychotronic_weapons. I've redirected accordingly. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What does the acoustic harassment, as in fact used on birds and marine mammals, have to do with the weird electromagnetic warfare articles you are talking about? Please restore the article so it can be discussed. Also, if you don't think it's notable you are welcome to propose a merger or better yet take it to Articles for Deletion. I welcome the scrutiny because the subject is obviously notable. And I suggest you actually READ the article so you have some idea about what you are talking about. Are acoustic harassment devices covered in the articles you are talking about? That's all I will say for now. Hopefully some cooler and calmer heads will weigh in with some rational input. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Deleted and salted for 3 months. Full protected Voice to skull 3 months as a redirect as well. One AFD, one MFD, plus a few times failed at AFC have already clearly shown that the community says "no" to this article. Please note that this may be subject to discretionary sanctions under Fringe Science.... Dennis Brown |  | WER 18:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

LMAO Here are Google book results for acoustic harassment. And Dennis Brown is clearly involved. This is a gross and incompetent abuse of his tools. I hope he will come to his senses and revert himself. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

  • You are welcome to ask about my incompetence at WP:AN, or my involvement. I haven't edited nor participated in the deletion discussions on the articles, so not sure how you get WP:INVOLVED out of that, I was just helping the previous editor understand why the article isn't going to happen at Wikipedia any time soon. That makes me informed, not involved. Just as you claim I was canvassed on my talk page, and I have no idea who canvassed me. Dennis Brown |  | WER 18:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
It should be noted that none of the articles cited used the term 'acoustic harassment' either. Synthesis is synthesis, regardless of the article title. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
...and it should be noted that Google books search results on marine aquaculture have nothing to do with 'neuro-electromagnetic devices' supposedly developed by the U.S. Army to transmit voices into people's heads. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes. I'm puzzled why they were put forward by Candleabracadabra as some sort of proof. At best, this is a WP:COMPETENCE issue. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Question: Shouldn't Voice to skull redirect to Microwave auditory effect instead of Electronic harassment? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't matter to me, several others said EH was the best choice, but any admin can change it easily if a discussion finds a better redirect. Had others not previously redirected it, I would have just deleted and salted it. I'm not sure the redirect is needed, but it was the community's call. Dennis Brown |  | WER 18:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
The Microwave auditory effect is a real thing that delusional people have latched onto as supporting their delusions that Electronic harassment can and is taking place. To redirect V2K to MAE would only reinforce that delusional association between the two things. GDallimore (Talk) 21:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Well spotted, Guy, I was looking for the off-wiki source of this POV-push. That group was apparently founded in the UK, which suggests that Mike Corley might be involved. Guy (Help!) 19:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


Can we finally do something about User:Synsepalum2013, and his/her relentless, tendentious and clueless campaign to add fringe conspiracy-theory drivel concerning supposed 'voice-to-skull' devices (allegedly created to project voices into peoples' heads - if you believe the dingbat websites) into Wikipedia? We've gone through multiple AfCs AfDs, Mfds and god only knows what else, but :Synsepalum2013 is still insisting that policy doesn't apply here, and that Wikipedia should provide a webhosting service for the delusional - this in spite of clear and unambiguous warnings from admin Dennis Brown EdJohnston that the subject is covered under discretionary sanctions regarding fringe pseudoscience, and that repetition of the tendentious behaviour already noted would lead to repercussions. [83] As the latest MfD discussion illustrates, Synsepalum is still basically saying that Wikipedia policy doesn't apply, and that his/her interpretation of policy overrides everyone else, and that s/he is entitled to argue endlessly with anyone who suggests otherwise. [84] - and to make it worse, even after everything else, Synsepalum is now once again arguing that the failed AfC (a recreation of the article already deleted at AfD by overwhelming consensus) somehow deserves to be moved into article space: [85]. It seems self-evident that isn't going to stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense until he/she is indefinitely blocked, per WP:NOTHERE, WP:COMPETENCE and as a humongous waste of time, space and energy. Enough is enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

We have an article on that, Microwave auditory effect. Same thing right? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Minus all the synthesis, unreliable sourcing, and general moonbattery, yes, quite possibly. Though I think our article on auditory hallucination is actually far more pertinent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:54, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
This editor is promoting a fringe organization which is fighting a fringe battle against notional targeted electronic harassment. I see big problems with WP:HERE—the user is not here to improve the encyclopedia. The user is bull-headed, refusing to listen to all of the experienced editors saying 'no'. I see no future for this person on Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • EdJohnston issued a discretionary warning on their user page, under Arb's decision on fringe science, and since then I've tried to help keep it from being exercised against the editor by educating them, although I won't claim success. I've already done some G4 deletions and salting on this topic, so will leave it for others to adjudicate. Dennis Brown |  | WER 20:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • If this is till going on tomorrow, I say we show him the door. This is someone whose only interest in Wikipedia is as a vehicle for their own mad ideas. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Made this a subtopic of the "Voice-to-skull" topic that was one section above. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:11, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not really complicated. I created a completely new article with quality sources. When it got redirected because someone thought it was the old article I posted here so I could get more scrutiny. Within minutes Dennis speedily deleted the article with a dishonest edit summary with claiming it was a recreation.It wasn't. The article had absolutely nothing in it about mind control as I didn't find any mention of that subject (which seems to me to be totally distinct) in any of the sources I found. Dennis violated numerous policies, he was involved, and he should stop trying to hide the truth and cease bullying those he disagrees with. If he thinks the new article isn't on a notable subject he's welcome to propose a merge or take it to AfD as per policy. I'm absolutely confident that acoustic harassment is notable, but maybe he can get enough people to vote "I don't like it". At any rate, we don't obliterate subject so editors can't see what we're discussing and then misrepresent and lie about what we've done and why we did it. That's bullying of the worst kind. Candleabracadabra (talk) 06:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's not really complicated. This is an offsite campaign to advance an extreme fringe POV by stating as fact a belief that is held primarily by people who are mentally ill, and is already covered in electronic harassment. It's been deleted a few times now, so it's time to stop. And Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Candleabracadabra/Acoustic harassment for good measure. Guy (Help!) 08:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
These claims of involved, bullying, dishonesty, policy violations are of course complete bullshit. Help, I'm being repressed. Drmies (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, but both users seem to be expert wikilawyers and it really is past time this nonsense was shut down once and for all, otherwise we'll be arguing with them until the heat death of the universe. Guy (Help!) 15:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


Looking at the history, it seems that Synsepalum2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was well aware of the deletion debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voice to skull, but nonetheless created Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Voice to skull, which was moved to article space, deleted again, then re-created at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Voice to skull. Sensepalum2013 seems to be completely unable to accept that there is any problem with this, and unwilling to accept the judgment of others that this subject is adequately covered at electronic harassment. Synsepalum2013 is a single-purpose account. The case for a topic ban of Sensepalum2013 from the subject of voice to skull, under any title or in any article, seems very strong.

Candleabracadabra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) seems identically unwilling to accept consensus against this article. There is some suggestion of off-wiki collusion. Candleabracadabra is a user in good standing. In this case I believe an admonition to drop the stick and step away from the deceased equine is warranted. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I can see no point in a topic ban for Sensepalum2013 - s/he is clearly not here for the benefit of the encyclopaedia, and there can be no realistic prospect of useful contributions from someone so clearly incapable of working in a collaborative environment. An indefinite block would be simpler, and we've wasted too much time over this already - a topic ban would simply give Sensepalum2013 another excuse for Wikilawyering nonsense. As for Candleabracadabra, I can't say I'm convinced by suggestions of collusion, and inclined to put the article recreation down to poor judgement - I suspect that if it hadn't been for Sensepalum2013's interminable tendentiousness, we would probably all have been less hot-tempered about it, and much of the strife could have been avoided. I still say that the article Candleabracadabra created (under whatever name) is synthesis, and it certainly shouldn't have been called 'voice to skull', but this is largely a content dispute, and not really an ANI matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I could get behind a topic ban (edit: provided that a breach of the ban is dealt with in a decisive manner by moderators confident enough not to engage in pointless arguments/wikilawyering and wasting their time. If he breaches the ban, that's his fault). Oversimplifying my reasons, it's more of a moderated, preventative measure rather than outright punishment, and I like that idea even though I agree with Andy that there is no likelihood of positive contributions. Having said that, Andy, you need to learn to walk away stop engaging (sorry, I didn't mean "walk away" from the article, I meant walk away from an argument which isn't going anywhere) when it's clear you've won and stop wasting your own time unecessarily. I'm bad at it, but you're worse than me! GDallimore (Talk) 09:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
It is worth noting that Synsepalum2013 has already been given a DS warning via Fringe science, so a topic ban can be unilaterally be implemented by any admin (although that is NOT my favorite way to issue a topic ban). As for Candlebracadabra, they have been abrasive to everyone at every turn, and I still think that a DS warning is due, allowing any admin to use whatever methods are necessary in the future, should they not comply. Also note, they have a copy of the article in their user space, showing an unwillingness to drop the stick and use the processes here to get a review. Both have shown an unwillingness to consider community consensus and instead try to bypass the system. That is troubling, thus why the DS warning is needed. As I'm already neck deep in this, I would prefer a different admin consider this. Dennis Brown |  | WER